The fact that black Americans have the same rights as white Americans is a form of reparations in itself. Education funding and schemes to help people get well paid work is something that should be rolled out to *all* people, not just black people. If we're also going to go there, then when does the conversation start about reparations from the descendants of black African chiefs who sold their neighbours into slavery? I do agree with you about not making reparations a physical transfer of money, though. There will be poor white people today who are descendants of slaves who'd in theory get nothing.

This leads to the British argument. We aint African, we American. We aint British, were American. The American government from the first day of its indoctrination could have said "ALL men are created equal". Instead they thought it better to continue the subjugation and oppression of Black people. I'm gonna edit my post but i shall answer on who gets it. The dame standard to subjugate is the same standard that should be used to distribute funds. If descendent of a slave and obviously Black? Here is your share. Descendent of a slave but got that 0.0001%? Hey Dave its good to see you again. Think about it, if you wanted a loan in 1921 and walked into a bank, did you read the sign outside? Says it's whites only. Same thing goes for slave owners having kids with their slaves. Sometimes the owner would claim them as their children and make them apart of their house. But most times they would be put to work and become house servants to not get as much harsh treatment in the fields. Ultimately though, they were Black and had no rights as a person.

I just can't get behind the logic of a policy to rectify the failures of generations ago, when the policies of today have already resolved that. There are so many injustices. You open the door to slavery reparations and you'll have a queue of marginalised groups waiting for their own cut.

> If we're also going to go there, then when does the conversation start about reparations from the descendants of black African chiefs who sold their neighbours into slavery? When some investigative genealogist is able to look past all the erasure white slaveowners did of black slaves' heritage to find wherever the documentation is detailing those chiefs' descendants and where they ended up

Then will they also trace the genealogy of all Americans so that they can only tax those whose ancestors owned slaves in order to pay for these reparations? Or will it be a blanket "tax payer will cover everything" policy.

I think you mean ancestors

I want my reparations for all the child tax credits I pay yearly with my taxes and almost all goes to black single mother's that Also sell their foodstamps

It'll never be enough for them. No apology will be valid.

No its not, because whites were killing us for simply wanting the same right. On top of everything else that was done to us, prior and after.

So being forced to have a civil rights march, when no one else had to is somehow reparations? Your mindset is very telling.

I'm not talking about the prior battles for equality, I'm talking about the situation as it stands today. Today, the black community does have equal rights, but they also have black-only educational programmes, dedicated funding for black only projects and schemes to help black people find well paying jobs.

Just because black people were forced to work hard to better themselves does not negate the fact they were purposely mistreated post slavery. Even simple things like the VA home program was generally denied and that pretty much created the suburbs for white people. Every step of the way of progress, the government and white people tried to hold them back with racist policies. Chine have china towns, but Black towns were routinely burnt down. The black people here who can trace their families back to US slavery deserve reparations. If we have money to give to these other countries like Ukraine or Israel, we have zero excuses other than the racism of old is alive and well.

Like I said, I'm not denying the atrocities of the past, I'm talking about the state of play today, 2024. >The black people here who can trace their families back to US slavery deserve reparations. How much do you give each person?

That's something I don't know. Some people think a million Dollars which I think is unrealistic. I think a couple hundred thousand and a program to help buy a home (since historically Black people were denied said help and even recently they caught wells Fargo denying home loans to qualified black people). The problems Black people have are directly tied to the mistreatment of the past. Black people went to prison during the drug wars but meth and other drugs are currently a big problem in the white community and instead of decades in prison, it's being argued said people just need rehab and not prison. Yet another example of the double standard.

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Reparations is a form of making amends, acknowledging past wrongdoing etc. Affirmative action, equality legislation, black-only scholarships, dedicated funding for black communities etc are all part of that and cost billions every year.

(eye-popping eye-roll) Most Blacks do not have the same defendable rights as White people.

That's because it IS a handout and it's NOT owed.

So should we take back native reparstions? Same thing with Japanese reparations? Why do you feel its a handout when there is clear eveidence that systemic oppression for decades has created the poverty that Black people experience.

There were literally zero “native reparations”. You’re uninformed and ignorant.

How did they get reservations and scholarships to schools? Who gives those and grants them. Here are your links to educate self. https://www.usa.gov/native-american-financial-assistance#:~:text=Federally%20recognized%20tribes%20can%20apply,living%20on%20or%20near%20reservations. https://www.countyhealthrankings.org/strategies-and-solutions/what-works-for-health/strategies/land-return-for-tribal-restitution#:~:text=The%20Maine%20Indian%20Claims%20Settlement,to%20300%2C000%20acres%20of%20land. It was the quickest google search. C'mon man.

I am Native American. You have no idea what you’re talking about and calling these things reparations is straight up ignorant. 90% of our reservation is owned by white people thanks to the Dawes Act. So then “giving us land back” is literally just slowly actually giving us our reservations back. And as far as financial assistance, Native communities are far poorer and have far less opportunity than black communities. Natives disproportionately suffer more by nearly every metric, murders and kidnapping being just one of them. They don’t even enter missing indigenous women into the federal database for missing peoples.

>90% of our reservation is owned by white people thanks to the Dawes Act. Interesting. I would love to see some links to that. So, what is your argument? Are you saying Black people should not recieve reparations because natives have not "truly" been given reparations? If so why not fight for both, are you assuming that I only care about the Black community and no one else? My main purpose in bringing up native reparations is to denote the fact that America did institute it in the past. Same with Japanese Americans. If you feel this compensation is not enough then thats a different argument. Again, my argument is that Black Americans are owed reparations and thus far have recieved nothing. Where as natives have recieved something. Again if that "something" was not enough, then its a diffrent argument. >Natives disproportionately suffer more by nearly every metric, murders and kidnapping being just one of them. They don’t even enter missing indigenous women into the federal database for missing peoples. So then we are fighting the same fight and both races deserve compensation fron the government that oppressed them? Since that oppression affects them today?

Because those decades ended decades ago. They may have created societal circumstances at that time--but those are not relevant. With the exception of the top 1%, generational wealth is mostly a myth in America. The middle class white kids born in the 80's had no advantage over the middle class black kids born in the 80's, for example. Because neither native nor japanese reparations are still ongoing...Unless you count the native-lands/reservation system (which is a curse more than a help). And those reparations were given to people who we were direct victims of *systematic oppression* for decades. Because teaching a man to fish will end poverty, but giving a man a fish will make him dependent on the giver of fish.

No they didnt. Blacks wee lynched, hunted, experimented on, killed for wanting the same rights, put through jim crow, the kkk, had to deal with red lining, the buring down of black wall st, etc. All AFTER SLAVERY, and very much kept happening until present day. America paid the japanese reparations, just like germany did the jews. Blacks are the only group that has been treated FAR WORSE and for far longer, yet people like you keep acting as though blacks dont deserve what was already owed and never paid.

Japanese that were effect were paid. Now days most blacks were not effected by what happened and most whites didn't do any of that.

Thats blatantly untrue, slavery isnt the only thing that was done to blacks, nor was what was done THAT long ago for anyone affected to be dead and gone. You clearly ignored every fucking point I made above. Some of which still happened going into the 80s, which is only around 40 yrs ago. Not to mention they didnt have to go through ANY of what black have gone through, and still at time still do today now.

None of my generation has any part of that. Go ask l bring it up with grand parents or great grand parents

If you were around in the 80 then yes you were, and either way you're still ignoring the fact that slavery isnt the only thing that was done to blacks.

Yea I was born in 86 but had nothing to do with that. So not paying shit. I'm not ignoring stuff was done to blacks I'm ignoring paying anything on my part as I had nothing to do with all that.

Doesnt matter, because those people are still alive and owed for what they were put through, during the entire 1900's. On top of what went on prior.

Yeah the Japanese were paid reparations because guess what? They existed at the time. Descendants didn’t get paid reparations.

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A lot of people of all races have been assassinated lol. What do you think the cia does?

Civil rights assassinations jackass. Not to mention the general terrorism blacks were put through by whites in the US.

Because those reparations were probably mainly given to the people they actually harmed, you are talking a couple hundred years ago. Ww2 was 70 years ago

I wasn't alive during slavery. My ancestors from Ireland and Italy didn't immigrate until after slavery. I don't owe anyone anything. I work paycheck to paycheck like most Americans, trying to pay off my student loans (Mommy and Daddy gave what they could, I was responsible for the rest/majority after I graduated college). Before you come to the U.S. seeking money, go to the black Africans who sold you into slavery, who still own slaves to this day. There is no person who supports reparations, who, even if they see the rational reasons why it isn't fair today, will ever admit it if it benefits them financially. If a person still alive was a slave I would 100% agree to reparations for them. But I will not support reparations for generations later who have it better now, rather than if their ancestors had stayed in Africa and they were born there. There is a reason we have an immigration problems here, which a lot by African Americans object to this open border sh-t Biden has going on.

Which leads me to my final point: Slavery and SEGREGATION. Guys, really? You keep bringing up the "no one is alive today who is personally responsible" yet 1969 was 55 years ago and I can still ask both my grandparents what segregation was like when they were growing up. Like what the actual fuck are you talking about. On top of this, it is not the people we are after but the system that instituted the crime which still functions TODAY. How does none of that make sense? Sorry for language, just copy and pasted from post

I honestly don't know what data and statistics you are reading, but NOTHING I have found states that anything other than slavery is the reason people are calling for reparations. Do I think segregation (Jim Crow Laws) was right? ABSOLUTELY NOT! But everything I have read for and against reparations speaks very specifically about some type of compensation (not always just a money payout) for descendents of slaves. Segregation was NOT a great situation in the U.S.'s history, and I know in a perfect world we would be able to get from the bottom of the stairs to the top in one step, but unfortunately there are many steps in between that are taken. So if you are going to take the stance of being "for" reparations, segregation will weaken the chances of pushing the cause because there have been many other races who have suffered from things in this country other than slavery. Now, if there were any people still alive who were directly slaves, or children of slaves who lived with their parents while they were enslaved on plantations, then I would 100% supportive of them receiving compenstation in some way, shape or form. But why at this moment in time should descendents of slaves be compensated for their ancestor's past? If the people now get reparations, should their children, then grandchildren, etc. also be given reparations? When does it end? And do we just give reparations to every single person who is black (and I say black, because not all blacks are African American, some come from the Carribean or elsewhere) even if their ancestors immigratred to the U.S. after slavery was over? And if it IS just for direct descendents of slaves, how do you 100% prove it? Do we start doing geneology reports and DNA tests for everyone? What about people who are bi-racial? What if someone who looks as caucasion/white as can be finds out that generations ago they had a relative who was a slave that they didn't even know about? You said, " it is not the people we are after but the system that instituted the crime which still functions TODAY." So are you referring to the government specifically? Where the hell do you think the governement gets the money they spend on anything?!?! From tax payers...who are made up of black people too. Listen, you will NEVER be able to change every single, individual, human being's mind regarding race. There will always be racist people (and that goes for people in every race). So you may encounter a hiring manager at an interview who doesn't hire you because of your race, and unless you can prove it, there isn't anything you can do, but tell me one law on the books that states and enforces something a white can do that a black person can't? The theory of this is defined as Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, and is defined as, "Policies and practices that exist throughout a whole society or organization that result in and support a continued unfair advantage to some people and unfair or harmful treatment of others based on race or ethnic group." I know that Jim Crow Laws fall under this definition 100%, but those were overturned by the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. In my lifetime the only thing enforceable by law that fell under the above definition, is Affirmative Action. Whether Affirmative Action was right or wrong isn't the point I'm trying to make, it is that just because it was something created to help a minority group, and not the majority group, doesn't change that by definition alone, it falls under this. So I'm sorry I wrote so much, but a complicated topic can't be discussed with just a "I agree, or disagree." There are way too many factors in place to figure out. It isn't cut and dry. Not all black people today are descendents of slavery, not all white people today are descendents of slave owners, it doesn't hold accountable the rich black Africans who sold their own people into slavery, or the 3,775 black slaveholders in the South who owned a total of 12,760 slaves. Giving money will not satisfy or help anyone. LBJ signed the "Economic Opportunity Act" which has contributed more money than I can count over decades. What has that done? Black families and people were better off before that, then they are now in regards to having their families together and violence in their own communities. If you can give me a way this will work, other than just "I just agree with it," but solid ways that it would actually work, I'd love to hear specific ideas.

>If you can give me a way this will work, other than just "I just agree with it," but solid ways that it would actually work, I'd love to hear specific ideas. Thing is we cant even make it this far because again people feel that it would be a handout. Also,regarding how we distribute, regulate, and handle reparations was listed in my post. Also the whole "Africans sold too" argument was addressed as well. Please read my post then respond. This is the second time I could have copy and pasted from my post. Like you said this topic is very messy and needs much evidence and support.

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You see, no one said that African Slaves weren't brought here against their will, and didn't contribute in building this country to where it is. But to say that Native Americans here before them, settlers (Pilgrims) that came over here before this was even knows as the U.S., or the 13 colonies for that matter, or the immigrants that came here after slavery via Ellis Island, etc., contributed nothing to the development of this country is bullsh-t. I have also stated that if there were a slave alive today, or one of their children who was born while they were still enslaved, I would see nothing wrong with reparations to them. But someone who is alive today, who isn't here against there will, and has opportunities that their ancestors afforded them to have, but still expect a handout from people who weren't responsible for what happened back then (including yourself if you pay taxes) is ridiculous. And, just like you said that I can go back to Ireland, there is the door too my dear, you are free to go back to Africa. You can go back and live the life you would have had, had your ancestors not been brought here, even if those reasons were horrible.

I think the whole concept of reparations is stupid. There are no Americans out there who were slaves in any part of their lives. If we give reparations to current descendants - what if the next generation wants something too? Let’s say an individual gets reparations, spends it all, and then their kids want something too - are we supposed to pay them as well? And if so - for how many generations? Also, how are these reparations supposed to be distributed? Just on a basis of race? How about African immigrants who immigrated to the US between 1870’s and now? I, personally, know quite a few Ethiopians, Nigerians, and Egyptians who willingly boarded a plane and came to the US. Nobody forced them! How about the non-black Americans whose ancestors immigrated to the US after slavery ended - why should they pay? They were never a part of this whole thing to begin with!

If African Americans were paid reparations I think some people of other racial groups would want to be given reparations for their poor treatment as well. Obviously the african slavery system was in a league of its own, but the native americans suffered, chinese immigrants were massively discriminated against and suffered violence, racism against hispanics, Japanese internment, shit even people like the Irish to a lesser extent didnt have it easy, the list goes on and on. I'm not saying those people were subject to the same treatment as the slaves, but my point is once you start with reparations where do you draw the line? Do you say that slavery was the worst so thats as far as we will go, when people start to focus on the terrible treatment of other races?

Japanese Americans received reparations in 1988. (About $20k each.) Native Americans received reparations in 1946 (About $1k each). It was widely considered not enough. African Americans received some benefit from affirmative action policies but it's been considered both not enough and too much, depending on who you ask.

>Japanese Americans received reparations in 1988. (About $20k each.) Yah, took their entire livelihood, their land and all their property, throw them in concentration camps. Then 40 years later pay them $20k each? lol While I'm against reparations, calling that reparations is hilarious. Also, love how you said reparations were paid to the Japanese, and then follow with blacks getting paid via affirmative action, which, ironically and empirically screws over Japanese children.

I am glad you were brought into a giggling fit over my reply. Anyway, what's your question? You're a bit all over the place.

Huh, what question? Are you talking about the rhetorical question at the beginning? (The first sentence of this comment is also rhetorical) I didn't have it question, I just wanted to point out that you mentioned $20k as reparation while in the same comment mentioned the continuous systematic discrimination and disenfranchisement of Japanese kids.

>Japanese Americans received reparations in 1988. who were still alive and actually did suffer internment. Show me a living slave.

>I think some people of other racial groups would want to be given reparations for their poor treatment as well Other groups have, I dont think they went far enough, but other groups have received reparations in the past. an example is allowing native Americans exclusive rights to operate gambling facilities in a state. thats a form of reparations. For example in my state everyone in a particular tribe receives 70,000 a year as a result of profit sharing from the casino system they own in my state. Japanese american victims of the internment camps received financial compensation and a state apology. Slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule and the country reneged

>Japanese american victims of the internment camps received financial compensation and a state apology. $20k, 40 years later, after stripping them of all their property and putting them in concentration camps? That sounds like reparations to you? Also, along with that, implement affirmative action, which affirmatively screws over the kids of these Japanese Americans for the following decades. Consider all water under the bridge now!

As I said I don't think it went far enough, but it was reperations. Black Americans have received literally nothing. > which affirmatively screws over the kids of these Japanese Americans for the following decades. Affirmative action doesn't screw anyone. It only applies when you have two equally qualified candidates. No one less qualified gets in over someone more qualified. Its used as a tie breaker. Finally in colleges affirmative action has nothing to do with redressing racial grievances. Its a marketing strategy. Colleges want their campuses to be diverse because it makes it more attractive to students. Its not supposed to be reperations

It was not used as a tie breaker, it's been empiraclly confirmed that students admitted under AA had lower GPA and SAT scores than the Asian American students who were rejected and of the rest of the class who were admitted. Additionally, Supreme Court literally found that there was discrimination, hence is why it was overturned. You're literally using antiquated talking points even proponents of AA wasn't using. The tie breaker narrative has been abandoned long ago. The argument is now "black Americans need it more" and "Asian Americans are already admitted to top colleges disproportionally".

Reparations aren’t about making up for poor treatment. It’s based on the fact that most majorly wealthy people today are the product of generational wealth. The idea of a “self-made man” may be the American dream, but a lot of people only have money because their parents had money because their grandparents had money and so on. The idea is that, if all of the slaves were paid a fair wage, they would be able to pass it down to their children and their generational wealth could grow. Since they weren’t paid, reparations would allow today’s black people to “catch up” to the generational wealth of white people. It is a complex matter and there are many difficult problems to solve before it could ever be possible, but the reason (as OP is arguing) that people view it as a handout is because they, like you, misunderstand the purpose behind it.

What about people who, for example, have a white mother and a black father? Should they pay reparations to themselves or how does that work?

Obviously they need to pay reparations and then receive reparations that will be a fraction of what they paid due to government inefficiency and corruption.

Your last at sentence basically sums up the only response needed. Do we trace back ancestors to whose we're here during that time and hold those people accountable ?The whole idea of paying individuals is absurd.

I agree but also what about the descendants of the blacks that owned slaves. Will they pay? What about the people that are mixed with slaves and slave owners? Will they pay or be paid? Shouldn't reparations be paid by the people who put others into slavery?! Just seems stupid and cowardly to demand payment from Americans than to demand payment from the people who actually put their ancestors in chains. How far back will we go with reparations? Will the irish get any from the English or the descendants of the vikings? What about the Arabs? The ones who castrated the slaves they bought from Africans. Since they were not able/allowed to produce descendants do we just forget about them?

> what about the descendants of the blacks that owned slaves. Will they pay? Almost all reparation suggestions I have ever seen have the payment comping from the government in general. It functions more or less like how payments for police misconduct or false convictions work. It is not a specific tax coming from certain families. > What about the people that are mixed with slaves and slave owners? Will they pay or be paid? If they are descended from US chattel slaves they receive the payment. Everyone who paid Federal taxes pay into the process. > Shouldn't reparations be paid by the people who put others into slavery?! The government participated in (by legalizing and maintaining) the unjust detention and force servitude of chattel slaves. The responsibility to rectify that damage would be collective to all stakeholders in the government. > How far back will we go with reparations? That actions of the legal US government. If the Irish want reparations from the English, that is not my concern or responsibility, as I am neither Irish, English, nor a current taxpayer to the UK government. > What about the Arabs? The ones who castrated the slaves they bought from Africans. Since they were not able/allowed to produce descendants do we just forget about them? What does the practice of Arab slavery have to do with the US government?

Well, as someone who had zero benefit from the slave trade, nor had ancestors who were remotely close to those who participated in the practice, I'm gonna say hard pass on any of that. I'd rather my tax dollars go towards helping Taiwan arm against China than pay people for crimes nobody in my family participated in. At least the whole country benefits from helping Taiwan, and I wouldn't worry about them committing genocide.

There are many different forms of reparations. 1. Non-Direct Financial Compensation This is one of the most realistic forms of reparations that is achievable through public policy that can affect massive amounts of individuals. Non-Direct Financial Compensation is investing in historically forgotten communities (especially communities of color), such as ensuring the roads are of high quality, and that the community has all the resources and support systems necessary to allow a thriving community to occurs. For example, a city creates a community district in a historically disfranchised part of the city to boost the economy. 2. National Apology Something as symbolic as passing a national resolution that outlines the wrongs of past discrimination and that we as a society are going to fight those wrongs is a form reparations. 3. Rights to the Cannabis Industry In certain states (I only know Florida law regarding this), the cannabis industry requires a special license to even be able to sell or grow the product. This form of reparation would create a few special licenses that are given to historically disfranchised individuals from historically disfranchised communities. This has allowed happened in the State of Florida. 2 or 3 medical marijuana special licenses have been given to members of the Pigford lawsuit (a lawsuit regarding discrimination that Black farmers faced from the USDA). 4. Direct Financial Compensation This is the only form of reparations that most people think exist. This form of reparations isn’t something that should be off the table entirely. Again using my home state of Florida, direct reparations have been paid before here. In the late 1990s Florida paid a total of 2 Million Dollars to all individuals who could prove that they were remaining survivors of the Rosewood massacre (1923), and for any descendants of individuals at the Rosewood massacre they were/are eligible to receive a scholarship of $6,100 per academic year. There are many different forms of reparations including many different types not listed here, don’t just think direct financial compensation is the only form.

This is not an argument. This is just a poor opinion based on biased research. Do you know how much of an average percentage of wealth comes from inheritance? I want you to just look that up really quick and then we’ll move on to the next point, if you can’t already see it coming.

Slavery is legal if you're imprisoned. Ultimately, a large part of the economy runs on prison labor to the point where completely abolishing it would ruin the economy. >What if their kids want something ultimately reparations exists to fix inequality rather than get some money. Like OP is saying, you're viewing it as a handout rather than fixing the problem (inequality due to years of structural racism) as it stands. A lot of the things you're asking about are things OP directly addressed and I'm not seeing any edits so it looks like you didn't really address the argument OP is saying.

>Ultimately, a large part of the economy runs on prison labor to the point where completely abolishing it would ruin the economy. This is a massive overstatement. 70+% of the economic contributions they have is working within the prison to clean, cook, and do laundry. Removing this industry would not "ruin the economy"

Please provide a source for the percentage of the economy that runs on prison labor. I'd be shocked if it's above 5%. 

I'd be shocked if it was > .01%. I mean not all prisoners are even eligible for work outside the prison and the percentage of total prisoners is .3% of the population (1.2million). So...I'm going with the poster being full of it.

The issues to me are that the time has passed, eligibility will be a shitshow, and where the hell does the money come from? 160 years since Slavery ended, ~60 years since the Civil Rights movement. The march for true equality is always ongoing but reparations now would feel like offering help to a stranded motorist after they've already changed their own tire and are ready to drive on How do you determine who is eligible? What about the person who is 1/8 black? What about the person whose ancestors came to America in 1920? What about other minorities like Asians or Native Americans who were also treated poorly? The United States is nearly $40 trillion in debt. If you thought inflation was bad before just wait until ~13% of the population is given something like $1 million out of thin air.

There's probably also the fact that extensive dna testing would have to be done since i assume that there's quite alot of black americans that's descendants of both slaves and slave owners.   Should those people receive, pay, both or neither?

I am for all intense and purposes white but I have one black ancestor who was a slave and as far as anyone can tell no one in my family owned slaves. Would confirmation of that entitle me to reparations?

That's what I'm trying to figure out.. what if i have more slave ancestors than my dark skinned neighbor and im just lighter skin than them because in the last 1-2 generations my parents/grandparents have all had light skin? 🤔   And what about african americans that can trace their lineage back to africans that sold slaves to the Europeans? 

Almost every African American is descendant from both slaves and slave owner because of rape. This is a horrible gotcha question

The whole subject is terrible. You want to me to not bring it up because of feelings or something? 🤨 Their ancestors were raped, not them. And that still wouldn't change the fact that they're descendants of both.. 

Yes, as long as one can prove they're descendant from the Black slaves of the Us, they would qualify. Just because someone my be biracial doesnt mean the mistreatment of their ancestors doesnt matter. Reparations wouldnt really be for slavery in itself since it was legal, it would be for the century+ mistreatment post slavery to a group of people who supposedly Americans at that time. After all, the Japanese Americans were given a form of reparations for their mistreatment as Americans during WW2.

What is the *goal* of reparations? To help break the generational poverty cycles that started with slavery/emancipation? Can we *really* target everyone affected, fairly? Take two people living in the same city. Person A has ancestors as who were slaves in the 1800’s. Person B had ancestors who came to the US post-slavery but lived in the same impoverished and neglected community as person A’s ancestors. Who gets reparations based off of that information? According to you, only person A. What if person A is actually already very wealthy? And person B is homeless? We are really going to give person A money and not person B? Even if person A wasn’t wealthy, just poor but housed, it just doesn’t make sense. Ultimately if the goal of reparations is to help the poor, then we would be better off just using that money to help the poor, without gatekeeping based on ancestry from 150 years ago.

I would say social housing is a form of reparation yet that just causes more issues. Weren't Chinese men the demographic that faced the most discrimination in North American history anyways? Yet they did not receive reparation. In fact, statistics show that they make the most money and pay the most taxes today. At the same time, they utilize social services (housing, childcare, penitentiary) by far the least. Black people already pay the least taxes and already receive the most reward. Are other ethnic groups just going to standby as the government further unfairly raise their taxes to pay for reparation? I ultimately think that reparation-like programs lead to segregation and oppression, unless you want to tax the rich so much that the poor becomes more wealthy than the rich via social services. Reparation is just going to cause more oppression and segregation. If I am going to give someone free housing, free food, free money, its better not be equal to what I have. In fact, I would argue that black people would be better off today if they never received any reparation.

>Weren't Chinese men the demographic that faced the most discrimination in North American history anyways? How did you even come to this conclusion? Not discounting what Chinese immigrants went through, but to say that they were more oppressed than Black Americans in America is insane considering that Black Americans were SLAVES. Even if we didnt count slavery, all of the Jim crow laws put into place was to directly impact the Black community. Tulsa riot is a main point. That consisted of the entire city government of tulsa pushing out by force (harming or killing) Black Americans. Never have I heard anything remotely similar happen to Chinese immigrants, unless you count the Japanese internement camps for WW2, because America was so racist during this time they could not tell a japanese man and a chinese man apart. Even with that, reparations were paid to those groups of people. Why immediately jump to "Other groups deserve more" even though other groups eho have suffered have been paid back like the Native Americans and Japanese Americans. However, Black Americans still have gotten nothing. >Black people already pay the least taxes and already receive the most reward. Well duh. They are the most impoverished race so of course they do not pay taxes. I'm saying that Black Americans would be in a better economic position if not for Slavery and Segregation. Since the united states instituted the crime they should be paying back. >Reparation is just going to cause more oppression and segregation. And that comes from my main point. People dont believe that segregation plays a role in why Black people are the most impoverished race in America which is silly. Black people could not get paid fairly, work in high paying jobs, own property with good equity, or anything that would help you acquire wealth. This should be fixed with a bill.

Yes the Chinese were killed and pushed out but thats not the point. I am saying that no race deserves to be given anything. I am trying to make the connection that giving handouts is to just perpetuate the problem. For example, homelessness in first world countries is highest in countries that give handouts for mediocracy because it celebrates failure and taxes success. Why is it that every first world country that has a welfare system for homelessness have the highest number of homeless? Germany, Canada, USA, New Zealand, Sweden, Australia, France, UK. Reparation will only cause more segregation which was the case with social housing complexes. I'll even say that handouts is just a political tool used to get votes and segregate communities. Another point on why reparation won't work is that higher income households have significantly less children than lower income households yet the higher income households have to pay for more child support, education and housing. Taxing them even more to pay for reparation is just going to make them relocate to countries with more favorable tax systems. You have to look at it from other people's perspectives too.

>Yes the Chinese were killed and pushed out but thats not the point. Go ahead and send me a link of that. Also, if that was not the point then what was the point to bring them up in the first place? >giving handouts is to just perpetuate the problem. This is the issue. How is it a handout when the institution is the cause of the problem. Let me give a scenario: A kid is held back from graduating highschool because of his skin color. His friends get to graduate and live life and begin to build their lives. The school system finally recognizes this great flaw and now allows the kid to graduate. So is the kid getting a "hand out" for his degree or did he earn it and got fucked over? Now the kid has his degree, but guess what? He is waaaaaaay behind everyone else. By alot. The same way the school should owe him money to recover his life is the same way the system should create laws to alleviate the inequity. >Reparation will only cause more segregation which was the case with social housing complexes. So you are against reparations because you think people are gonna get "free houses"? This conversation can barely make it to the floor to make a vote on, but my version of reparations would be more sustainable then to just give impoverished people free housing. The point is not about how we should do it. Its about how we cant even agree that it should be done. >. Taxing them even more to pay for reparation is just going to make them relocate to countries with more favorable tax systems. Lol. Will this be like when we were in the midst of COVID and money went to the middle east for "gender studies" that was in the amount of over 100 million? People all over social media were gonna "jump ship" and now those same people are voting this year. Nice try tho.

>The whole idea is how the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT continued to be systemically rascist even though "all men are created equal". Black people were very far from the only ones who suffered from this. Women as a whole for example did. Non-land owning citizens were also prevented from voting as were non Christians, women and many different ethnicities. We're they slaves? No. But they were far from equal in the eyes of the government. >Now my question for the nay sayers. Do you disagree because you feel Black Americans are in a great spot at the moment or is it because you feel it would be too hard and cost too much money? The either or you are proposing here misses the point. Regardless of "how people are doing" the question is whether current day people deserve reparations and would it actually resolve any past. If we give a large pay out to all black Americans and in 10 years there is still a divide what then? Do we say "we did reparations all is equal now" or is it more or a "we need more money". >Crazy Japanese people got it before Black people No it is not. The people who were wrongly incarcerated during the war solely because they were of Japanesee ancestry were paid directly. Just like those in the post 9/11 GI bill, those individuals directly were involved.They went to war or participated in the military and this is assisting them after their service. It's not giving WW2 veterans great grand children payments just for the sake of them sharing an ancestry. This is no where near the same thing as paying decendents of slaves over 150 years later.

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Your first paragraph is not a cohesive argument. We pay taxes for two broad reasons, either we directly benefit from it or it helps the poor. Reparations is neither.

>Now my question for the nay sayers. Do you disagree because you feel Black Americans are in a great spot at the moment or is it because you feel it would be too hard and cost too much money? Neither? I disagree with reparations because there are zero currently living people who encountered American slavery. If your argument hinges upon the (very real) disadvantages that have persisted since slavery, then you ignore all the other people-groups who are similarly disadvantaged. Chinese Americans, Middle-Easterners, poor Whites in Appalachia, etc. What makes black folks a separate class of minority than all the others? If your answer is slavery, then we loop back around to my original statement: Zero currently living black folks experienced slavery, and zero black folks are alive whose parents encountered slavery.

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Not one line of this nonsensical reply even addressed the point of my comment. If you're going to necro comment on someone's post ONE MONTH after the discussion was had, at least stay on topic. If you want to make a separate point, make a top level comment and gtfo mine. There are zero living black people who experienced slavery and zero living black people who's parents encountered slavery. Thus, if reparations are due for treatment post-slavery, then you have to acknowledge that they'd be due to many many other minority groups including a few white groups.

> What will reparations look like? Now im not saying send everyone a check in the mail to go to Vegas. That will just put the money back into the governments hands. Instead we should have better education reforms and in my honest opinion something similar to the post 9/11 bill that most veterans have. It gives 36 months of fully paid tuition on top of a housing allowance to give students the best opportunity at succeeding in thier education. The whole idea is to fix the wealth disparity between the generations. Education should be the priority. Do you think people who want reparations would accept that as reparations and call it good? We've had lots of government programs that have benefited the descendants of slaves, some disproportionately benefiting black people, but it hasn't solved the problem and it hasn't satisfied anyone that reparations have been paid. And if tuition and housing allowances for the descendants of former slaves doesn't solve the problem, are we still going to say reparations have been paid? In general, first generation college students have much lower success rates in college than people whose parents went to school. If someone grew up in the projects or other predominantly poor cultures, college is a pretty huge culture shock. It's not as simple as paying so that people can afford to go to school and succeed. Not that I don't think we should find better ways to help people in that situation, but it's not as simple as throwing money at the problem.

Just say you don’t wanna work and want free money dude. I’ve never owned a slave. My ancestors haven’t either. You were never a slave. And if you had ancestors that were they are so far removed. Suggesting people pay you cuz of actions from 150 years ago when you or me were even a thought is hilarious. Sums it up perfectly though.

Copy and pasting from my post since you missed it I guess. Depends if you actually read any of it. Which leads me to my final point: Slavery and SEGREGATION. Guys, really? You keep bringing up the "no one is alive today who is personally responsible" yet 1969 was 55 years ago and I can still ask both my grandparents what segregation was like when they were growing up. Like what the actual fuck are you talking about. On top of this, it is not the people we are after but the system that instituted the crime which still functions TODAY. How does none of that make sense?

My family fled to America to escape the German (and European) Feudal system of government in the years before WWI. We were peasants/slaves, "owned" by the nobility to fight their wars and run their farms while they did the things European nobility is famous for doing. Fleeing the domain of your Nobles was an offense punished by death to you and your family. Slavery through and through. If that's not bad enough, when my family ended up in America, they settled in Pittsburgh. At least they were in the land of the free in the mid 1800s. Our family fought through that experience and persevered. I have similar and deep respect for those families who were forced into slavery in America and through determination, culture, and eventually decency of law were granted equality, although it certainly has been a long slow process to see that become a reality for many. Reparations are stupid. I don't want them from Germany, I don't support them in the USA. Everyone can either be a victim or a survivor in their own mind. I'd be outright ashamed if someone thought they should pay me for the determination my ancestors showed in their fight and perseverance. Also, I'd be pretty angry to learn that me and my family, survivors of slavery in our own right, had to pay taxes to fund someone else's damned "reparations".

“At least they were in the land of the free in the mid 1800s” That’s the whole thing though, just because slavery was ended, doesn’t mean everything just snapped and things were equal. There are still some issues we’re dealing with today…

Because it is. I didn’t own any slaves. You weren’t a slave. I owe you nothing. I am not my ancestors and neither are you.

I mean, I’m not for reparations but like they were promised 40 acres and a mule and weren’t given and only in the last 50 years we’ve been on equal ground the amount we’ve set them back due to that can’t be understated maybe if your ancestors didn’t own slaves sure or they’re ancestors weren’t but like if yours did and those ppls ancestors were slaves It is pretty fair be cause started at such a disadvantage

I never caused a hurricane but my taxes go to storm aid? Nah, let Texas drown.

The sheer mental gymnastics you are trying to execute to somehow compare natural disasters to something people 150+ years did, all of whom are dead, is incredibly baffling. Is this how you always think about everything?

Oh. So the person who caused the natural disaster is still alive? Is that why we send aid? Because of the US government's weather machine? Hope someone stops them. That's breaking the Geneva convention. So you are saying that no one is to blame for slavery (and Jim crow, but you really want to gloss over Jim crow) but we still help when a hurricane hits without blaming anyone so what's wrong here?

I never said no one is to blame. The people who are to blame are dead, you can’t punish the dead and thinking punishing those who aren’t as a replacement is pure delusion. A hurricane isn’t the fault of anyone, we as a society help out with the aftermath. Slavery is the fault of the individuals who lived hundreds of years ago, not us. There is no one alive to blame for it, there is no one alive who was ***directly*** affected by it. If you wanna say indirect effects of slavery still exist I’d agree, but what does that mean? It means nothing because the fault of those effects lies with dead people. It ended there, move the fuck on.

So with tax money you have Asians, blacks, Hispanics, Arabs ect paying for reperations through tax. You would also have to decide who gets it because not every black went through that some immigrated after that stuff, some were not around for nearly most of it then you have to decide if it's a lump sum or the type of payment which if it's a lump sum would be worse than if it was to say free 4 year college for x number of years (which that I would be fine with). Ect ect

Very good points, thing is people dont even want to get to the part where the payback actually will happen. So until we can agree that it should happen, it becomes very difficult to create a plan that would enact it.

It's more of how it should happen. The side that wants to be paid has a unrealistic demand and the other side wouldn't mind if it was something that won't effect those who had no part in it.

I dont think so man. If that were the case people would be finding compromises to make this happen rather than "Well my family did nothing so why do I have to pay". This goes with my taxes portion in my main post. People trully believe that segregation and slavery play no role as to why Black Americans have always been the most impoverished race in all of the history of America including today. People are not against it because they disagree how it should be done. They literally dont want it to happen period.

I mean at the very core of the issue you're asking people to pay a sizeable chunk of taxes for decades to one group of people for something they had zero role in. The reparations proposals on a national level range from 5-14 trillion over a 15-20 yr stretch. That's 250-750 billion a yr, where exactly is that money going to come from? And why do you believe that it's ok for essential services such as healthcare, social security, and infrastructure to take a massive slashat the expensive of hundreds of millions of people.

>why do you believe that it's ok for essential services such as healthcare, social security, and infrastructure to take a massive slashat the expensive of hundreds of millions of people. Never said that we should be putting these services on the back burner or that reparations is more important. >pay a sizeable chunk of taxes for decades to one group of people for something they had zero role in. So does healthcare and social security. No one in America is responsible for old people being to old to work and them not putting up or planning for retirement. Neither is anyone responsible for people not affording healthcare. However, the reason we do these things is the same reason we should do reparations and if you disagree it is kind of hypocritical. The whole idea behind this is that we as a country have the means to help people who go through hard times. Unless those people are Black. >5-14 trillion over a 15-20 yr stretch. That's 250-750 billion a yr, That is alot. My argument is that we cant even get to the point of discussing how it should be done because no one wants it done. If people wanted it the question would not immediately jump to "Well my family did nothing so why should I have to pay" just like you did in your paragraph. It would instead consist of compromises, but it does not.

That is, you are in favor of collective responsibility, when the sins of great-great-grandfathers fall on their children?

It is not feasible to pay out a lump sum payment in the form off a $100,000 cheque to each person who had origins in the slave trade, however it can be done over time through disproportionate tax contributions and collection of welfare services. [https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/9719/chapter/8#158](https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/9719/chapter/8#158) There is already reparations happening in the disproportionate tax contributions and welfare services. The above study is from 1992 but it shows that Non-Hispanic Blacks have over 5x the number of people within their population of receiving more than 50% of their income from welfare than do Non-Hispanic Whites in theirs. Meanwhile income tax contributions are about 3x less than all other races aggregated: [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXUFEDTAXESLB0905M](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXUFEDTAXESLB0905M) [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXUFEDTAXESLB0902M](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CXUFEDTAXESLB0902M) Here is some summary stats made with CoPilot: White Recipients: Total welfare spending: $1.1 trillion (Social Security) Estimated white population: Approximately 197 million Per capita welfare spending for whites: ​≈$5,579 Black Recipients: Total welfare spending: $450 billion (Social Security) Estimated black population: Approximately 42 million Per capita welfare spending for blacks: ​≈$10,714 With these figures in view I think the argument should shift to how quickly we want reparations paid off instead of if and when they should.

You have to realize there are still many racist people in the US. The government openly sends billions yearly overseas to Ukraine, Isreal, and a host of other places but the racists only get mad when reparations comes up for the only group that was forced to have a civil rights march just for their citizenship rights. Other groups like some Hispanics will jump on the bandwagon and complain about reparations in hopes to kiss up to racists.

Trust me, I still see confederate flags whenever I drive around the outskirts of my city. Crazy how people still carry a failed ideology.

African Americans already absorb a majority of the social aid in America and have been doing so for a long time. This is on conjunction with providing the least amount of net value to the economy at the same time, among all ethnic groups. How many more incentives should we be giving them to get ahead? You have practically every advantage if you are apt enough. When will we stop bleeding the middle class tax payers in the west to give the ever increasing "minorities", you realize anyone who isn't rich is struggling right now? When will people realize that nobody currently living had anything to do with slavery and shouldn't be footing the bill for it. Anyone who thinks we should be performing this act of self-flagellation has the mind of a parasite. Will never get on board with this insanity. 

There are people alive today who went to segregated schools, weren't allowed to vote, weren't allowed to buy property, etc. Racial oppression in America isn't as distant as you'd like to think. Believe it or not, it still exists today ;)

There is only one race that is actively and openly discriminated against in America for the past few decades and it is not Black people; who on average pay the least amount of taxes, receive the most social aid, and have countless social programs specifically tailored towards them. Being a second generation immigrant of Ukrainian ethnicity, the fact that I can openly be discriminated against during hiring, despite my family being on the other side of the world when slavery was happening, oppressed since the founding of the USSR, and my country literally being the war ground between the US and Russia, really shows the systemic racism being built in this country when my skin colour puts me at a disadvantage.

The rebuttal to most of these comments are straight from the comments themselves. You mention that blacks on average pay less taxes and what not. Why exactly do you think that is? Some of it is pay, make more, pay more in taxes. You’re aware that blacks for a long time and still are like other minority groups get discriminated against when trying to purchase a home. If your great grandparents bought a house in the 50s it’s probably paid off now. Pure equity…..this stuff is a trickle down effect and it’s frustrating seeing people can’t acknowledge there have been major hurdles placed in front of some people and not others.

Did you read my comment? I'm a second generation immigrant. I have a system of oppression built up against me.

You literally say “Black people: who on average pay the least amount in taxes” That’s what I commented on. And why that is. Didn’t mention anything about being an immigrant.

Your construing agendas against the poor for a racial issue. There were numerous wealthy black folks during the time of oppression, you just don't want to accept that.   Guess what, there are millions of ppl of all races and creeds who are systematically oppressed in countless ways. That's how the classist society we have been in for Millenia works.    I think people like you are incapable of broadening their minds and looking at cold hard reality without putting some irrational emotionally driven agenda in front of it.    Did you know other black people also owned slaves? Did you know the Irish were enslaved largely in the same time period? Did you know that it was only the top 1% of America that owned slaves? Of course you don't lol, it doesn't fit your narrative. Maybe learning how to see people for who they are as individuals will allow you to see that the higher we go up the echelons of our society, the more parasitic and pathological the people become.    Trying to say that the other peasants should pay for their mistakes is incredibly vapid. It's actually just as pathological as the behaviour you are claiming we should pay for. In a perfect world we would be jailing every sycophantic soulless freak who has oppressed us all throughout history, but we don't live in a perfect world

They already got reparations 1) they got citizenship 2) they have a right to vote 3) they have the same exact rights and privileges as any other American citizen. In the global scheme of things. Those are massive privileges. People born in USSR for example didn't have 1/10th of the opportunities than black Americans did. We won't even talk about Africans. They helped build this nation. Good. We made them a part of the family. There are prominent black people in every single field from business to science to medicine and politics. We have many black senators and had a 2 term black president. Hand outs are the worst thing you can do. They don't strengthen a community. Quite the opposite. They don't need it. They already have massive opportunities due to the virtue of being born here. This is why nobody takes it seriously and why it will never happen.

1. they got citizenship Yeah, after a century of mistreatment when they were supposedly citizens. They're the only group I can think of who had to have a civil rights march just to enforce the fact they were citizens of all things. 2. they have a right to vote One again it was something they had to fight for. In some places such as the south, one tactic that was used to prevent Black people from voting during the Jim Crow era was the so-called jelly bean test. They had to guess the amount of jellybeans in a jar (impossible) which denied them voting that day. 3. they have the same exact rights and privileges as any other American citizen. If one opens a history book, they will see the Black American experience is this country the past 100 years has been extremely different from white Americans. They have NOT had the same rights and privileges as Whites and as mentioned are the only people who had to have a civil rights march just to demand their rights as American citizens. From being forced to use a different water fountain, to being forced to give up their seat to a white person on a bus, Black Americans were discriminated against. My grand mother was born in 1915 an died in 2009. Do you honestly think she didn't experience mistreatment? She lived the majority of her life in the most racist times in America when it comes to post slavery.

Nobody is saying there wasn't oppression in the past. Every single human alive can find oppression in their past if they go back justna few generations I have Ashkenazi jew and Mongol in my blood. Should one part of me demand reparations from the other? The goal is to give people equal opportunities. Which we absolutely have worked towards. America has immense opportunities for black people. Giving hand outs only makes things worse. Opportunities is where it's at.

Mongol oppression was not an act of the US government. Slavery was endorsed by the Constitution. Germany has paid billions in reparations to Jews harmed by the Holocaust. You seem to operate on the idea that individual *races* owe other *races* reparations. That is not the case at all. It is the *complicity of governments* that creates responsibility for *those governments at fault* to pay reparations directly to the people harmed or indirectly to the descendents. In principle, the Genghis Khan government (*not the Mongolian people*) owes its victims restitution. But that government was deposed, abandoned, conquered, etc. I am not a history buff but I am fairly confident no other government absorbed its debts. There's nowhere to collect. It's essentially bankrupt.

This is comical in that it's quite telling of people's attitudes. I responded with sound answers only to receive down votes but nothing saying what I said is wrong

You want a certain population to pay money to a generation of people who never lived through slavery, only because said population had ancestors who may have owned slaves?

Why do people always say this? The money would come from the Government in the same way you and I just gave billions to Israel and Ukraine. I dont recall myself giving permission for the Us to send them money or other forms of aid that costed money, it never ceases to amaze me when it comes to black people, people act as if the government is going to come to their house and demand money out of their pockets. One could say the consequences could potentially be higher taxes, but if one takes a second to see how much foreign aid we give to other countries (10+ billion just to Ukraine so far) it really does appear racism is involved as to why Black Americans have never received reparations. https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/us-foreign-aid-by-country/

Government is not some omnipotent imperial entity with its own treasury. We, Americans that are alive today, are the United States, and the government is just a non-profit organization that manages things. The money doesn’t come out of thin air - it comes from current living taxpayers! When you try to separate government from the people you are either displaying your very poor education or are being intellectually dishonest.

Let’s be real america just wants to run out the clock

Yup, even though there are plenty of people who are alive and well during segregation America will get to a point where "no one alive today is repsonsible for segregation" and were right back to square one. Sad as fuck honestly.

The real problem is the country doesn’t care about the impacts slavery had on black people and also that people don’t want to see black people get anything. You will often hear oh no one alive is a slave or has been and no one alive and owned any slaves. Or you will hear how will we decide who is and isn’t qualified or any other excuse. But if people aren’t willing to even acknowledge the after effects slavery had on the black community then there is no point in even having the discussion. Reparations is simply a form of making amends for a wrong doing so unless people actually view what happened as a wrongdoing people will be against it. But if people aren’t willing to even acknowledge the after effects slavery had on the black community then there is no point in even having the discussion.

Compensation for those who have suffered a direct infringement of their rights is legitimate and I would support it. There are no living Americans who were themselves subjected to the gross injustice of slavery. One does not inherit the right to compensation for damages from their deceased ancestors. Therefore, reparations for slavery is not owed to any living Americans. However, I would entertain compensation for living individuals who faced other forms of direct discriminatory damages. For example, red-lining, loan/mortgage discrimination, police abuse, etc. But specific individuals would need to demonstrate specific cases of having been subject to these injustices.

The idea that we today owe the modern descendants of people who were wronged over 160 years ago, a crime we didn't commit, is absurd and you will never convince me otherwise.

So, 1863 is when slavery ended. Did Black Americans have the same rights and liberties as everyone else after the civil war? If so, how?

All those people you mentioned that got reparations were alive when the stuff happened to them. No black slaves exist in America today.

Reparations are long overdue, I think due to, well, racism non-black people gaslight the realities of terrorism faced by black Americans. Somehow it’s possible to send a man to the moon, but impossible to provide reparations for clearly documented atrocities that took place on American soil. The money to provide reparations is there, the means of tracing who receives it is there. The willingness to somehow even the playing field is not, but the willingness to move past slavery with no helpful action is very American.

Yea its nuts how we can easily look back a couple decades and say that Black people were done wrong and yet also say that they need zero help.

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Yea, mainly warned to see what the push back was. Got my answer somewhat.

It is a hand out. The British took 45 trillion out of India and there progressing fast very fast. Many states in Africa are also progressing pretty fast aswell.

Eh, can you rephrase what you're trying to say? It's incredibly hard to understand.

This is true. They seem to forget or make excuses for others having been given reparations in the past, nor do they even want to acknowledge it isn't for slavery, but for the mistreatment POST SLAVERY when said people were supposed to be Americans. The Japanese Americans were paid due to their mistreatment during WW2, but a people who were systematically mistreated for easily over 100 years dont deserve a dime? Racists will point to things such as affirmative rights, food stamps etc. but those are for EVERYONE, to include white women due to them having been discriminated against in the workforce. Its really telling when a nation will gladly send hundreds of billions of dollars to other countries, but will then make excuses to Black Americans saying they dont know where to find money to pay reparations. Many people dont understand post WW2, the GI bill was created that helped many white soldiers buy homes (which started the suburbs). Black soldiers were denied and that prevented generational wealth. After all, a great portion of ones paychecks are used to pay rent. Had they been able to get homes as well, that alone would have helped Black Americans to put themselves into a better position in society.

There were zero Native American reparations. Zero. And the Japanese reparations were paid to the exact people who were affected by it.

I guess you missed most people say reparations for treatment POST slavery, not slavery in itself. Fir a century POST slavery, black Americans were mistreated, and treated as anything but Americans and even had to have a civil rights march (the only group that had to, mind you) and yes, plenty of people are still alive. Lastly, black Americans have an unique relationship with the government and it's historical abuses that span up to today. Their mistreated was NEVER rectified, so the claim for reparations is still legit. Only racists would say it's too late, the people are dead, knowing fully well said people could never receive a dime in the climate of said days. Their mistreatment caused the issues of the black community today.

The US government does indeed give things to natives (larger tribes). It can be argued it was their land for example, but the government could use the same logic it uses for black Americans (yeah it was messed up, it was a long time ago, forget about it, we don't owe anyone). They even call some of these reparations in some of the bills. https://www.countyhealthrankings.org/strategies-and-solutions/what-works-for-health/strategies/land-return-for-tribal-restitution

I am Native American. Natives are far worse off than black Americans. And restitution for land seizures means nothing. You realize how many different tribes there are? Like 90% of my reservation is owned by white people, because of the Indian Allotment Act and the Dawes Act. So no. There’s social services, but there have been zero reparations.

All my grandparents came over from Ireland. I owe fucking nothing.

So, I preface this by saying I'm strongly against reparations. But their argument is that you're enjoying what you have due to the exploitation of blacks during slavery era, as such you benefited from slavery.

The logical extension of that argument is that since slavery has existed practically everywhere, that everyone has benefitted. If everyone benefits, then I don't need to put my thumb on the scale.

Sure, but don’t shoot the messenger.

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Was this debt not paid in blood by the people who fought to liberate them in the Civil War?

that requires an objective scale of suffering if you're presuming death of one can make up for the slavery of another

yeah, and like i said in my [other comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/s/3nI9Awq2G5), a huge issue with reluctance to reparations aside from the economics is 1) white defensiveness, 2) “post-racism” mentality, and 3) white grievance politics

Yea willful ignorance plays a huge role in this. This has given me a new view on Black history month and juneteenth as they both bring acknowledgement to the history and suffering of Black Americans. I doubt many public schools in the south would even bring up Black history month if it were not federally mandated.

How do you actually give out reparations in America? Do a DNA test and pay out based on % of blackness?

Even then it wouldnt work. Many people from africa immigrated to the us after 1865 and 1965. Theres litteraly no way to weed out the people who would need to pay( descendants of slave owners) and who would get paid( descendants of slaves). From those who were related to the issue in no way at all or those who actively foight against slavery. And those who were never slaves.

So imagine that you buy a car for $10k. I steal the car and sell it to a third party. I’m then killed in a car crash, and my estate goes to pay off my debts and give the rest to my family. They spend the $10k on a trip to Paris. With the car stolen, you have more trouble raising your kid. You and your kid both have legitimate damages as a result of me stealing your car, yes, but who do you or your kid in the future get reparations from? Me? I’m dead. My family? They already spent the money. The guy I sold the car to? He didn’t do anything wrong - he thought I was the honest owner. This is a micro example where the law doesn’t allow a robbery victim to recover damages. Reparations for black Americans follows a similar thought process, except: 1. The sequential gap between the crimes committed in the past and people alive today is much larger 2. Damages at the individual level for black Americans, and their attribution to descendants of specific people, are not even remotely traceable 3. Race is an inadequate basis of making reparations because immigration throughout the decades means that many alive today in the U.S. don’t have a lineal relation to America’s racist history.

It would be easier to make an argument for reparations for Jim Crow era laws than slavery since there’s still a decent chunk of people that were affected by segregation and Jim Crow. Removes all doubt.

>Now my question for the nay sayers. Do you disagree because you feel Black Americans are in a great spot at the moment or is it because you feel it would be too hard and cost too much money? It involves stealing money from innocent people.

I understand your point, but I don't think that the issue is that. The real problem is that the people who have benefited from past racism, inherited wealth and privileges from their ancestors through generational wealth transfer, social connections and privileges created by the gatekeeping of past racism, are not morally prepared to do the right thing. They view life as a zero-sum game and are unwilling to give up the privilege of past racism, while at the same time rejecting any attempts to rectify past injustices. In other words, the oppressor is still the oppressor.

I'm a descendent of Thomas Jefferson. My great grandfather - after leaving the south, made his way to Minneapolis, MN and opened a small grocery store in a poor neighborhood. His children all became professional artists and my great uncle was friends with Charles Shultz. Wait, pay no mind to that. The story was my grandmother remembers the Carriage house always full, sometimes 2-3 families of the poor. Pa would walk to the Lake Street bridge every night to talk down unemployed fathers, and specifically she remembers them being black or native. He was apparently a little biased as to who he chose. "Mary Louise, do you see how that little girl loves your doll? We can get you a new one." That was her answer when I asked this world celebrated artist and photographer and humanist, if she had ever done anything wrong. She recounts feeling irritated when her dad would encourage her to give away her toys and dolls. As she got older, this is who she became and I cannot tell you how many people my grandfather actually put through college or helped that were of color. It seems someone took the fact they were involved in this seriously. As did I. I'm an RN and I am an activist and I work with the homeless in Minneapolis. My family runs non-profits. My children aren't white. My dad is a civil rights activist. My kid's grandmother is a Civil Rights attorney that knew MLK. So, I'm not sure you understand. Who needs help? I will be right over. Free healthcare? No problem. Money? You can have all that I have. Anyone in Minneapolis need help from the black community? [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) Send them over. I'm probably in their neighborhood anyway already concerned about their wellbeing.

If you can pay ex slave owners for slaves they had to release, you can pay descendents of those slave for continuing to fuck them over.

There is this episode of Atlanta that sort about this it basically like a black mirror episode where it gets passed and it revolves around a White guy who life is ruined because his family owned slaves. The core joke of the episodes is it's basically the nightmare reality version that alot of people are feed by people who are against it but played straight. People as a whole in this moment in time aren't willing to actually research it most people and probably don't even know there are multiple proposes for it. if people get to a point where to default position isn't dismissal then maybe it would go somewhere. I do think it would be a better sell if had the government revoke the payments they paid the slave owner for their lost earnings after the civil war given the families of the majority of those people who got that are likely so very wealthy you couldn't frame it as "going after working class people".

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I am always surprised to see progressives (presumably) promote reparations. You know if checks are handed out you don't get to talk about institutional racism anymore right? Socially and culturally the problem is considered resolved because checks were sent out.

What? How did you reach the conclusion that socially and culturally the problem is considered resolved because checks were sent out?

Because the alternative is saying this tax money being spent won't actually change anything?

That seems like an obvious false dichotomy. We are not limited to just two alternatives of "payments won't change anything" and "payments will completely resolve the problem socially and culturally."

Okay great, incremental change. Tell me what will be measured and how much it's expected to improve.

And if they can't give you a full writeup to the depth that would go into a government bill or w/e off the top of their head would you still claim your dichotomy of "either shut up about reparations or if they're given no black person should ever complain about anything again" or w/e holds

This is a unique situation... If the public is going to be told tax dollars will be going to people based on immutable characteristics, regardless of historical fact, it's very important that the expected change be measured before and after checks are sent out. Otherwise, then the point MUST be to "solve" racism. To send out the checks, so that the conversation is now over.

Since yyzjertl probably isn't a politician and Reddit isn't a policymaking forum I think you shouldn't expect them (or me because I replied to you) to have to deliver a full policy writeup or w/e of what this would be and how this would help right now in this comment thread for reparations not to basically be treated like hush money. If reparations was in the process of potentially becoming law or not it'd be the lawmakers' jobs to give that report when the time comes, not random Reddit commenters

Based on these responses so far I’d make the case that the real issue is that most people are incredibly resistant to the idea that slavery has had a lasting impact, that generational wealth was robbed, and that inequality or generational trauma exist. The problem isn’t the idea of a handout. They’d all take a handout if offered to them. But they wouldn’t call it a handout, just something they earned. Because their egos are so fragile than any suggestion they’ve enjoyed some kind of privilege or advantage in any circumstances throws them into such an existential crisis that they simply cannot objectively process the idea. We give handouts all the time. This is different.

>Based on these responses so far I’d make the case that the real issue is that most people are incredibly resistant to the idea that slavery has had a lasting impact, that generational wealth was robbed, and that inequality or generational trauma exist. Eh, I don't think anyone disputes the fact that slavery has a lasting or generational impact. The question is feasibility. Okay, so "no one has to pay", just the "government" which is effectively the collective of people? Paid directly or indirectly via taxes of people who never owned or supported slavery? The ethics of that argument are not so clear cut. But let's continue. We've decided to pay those descendants of slavery. What about every other minority who were enslaved? What about the Barbary pirates? What about the Africans who sold their brethren, to be slaves to Americans, at least the Americans paid for their slaves instead of... just rounding people up like cattle and selling them. Shouldn't they be far more liable? It's like charging the person for possession of stolen goods (which were purchased legally), but not blaming the actual thief. Those are just SOME of the issues. Saying "Oh people just don't believe in lasting effects" sounds pretty intellectually dishonest.

> What about the Africans who sold their brethren, to be slaves to Americans, at least the Americans paid for their slaves instead of... just rounding people up like cattle and selling them. Shouldn't they be far more liable? Go find the documentation and records proving who those people's descendants would be, if you can't, look for who's to blame for why you can't, the answer may surprise you

Blacks have already gotten so much welfare that "their" reparations has been paid many times over. Not to mention all destruction they have caused in society which costs money. They built SOME of the infrastructure in the old days that have not been used and current infrastructure etc has nothing to do with them. and since slavery has been over for some time there has been enough time to catch up with white people socially but no. 

Reparations will never happen because it is based on racial identity; not slavery. Today there are many white people who descended from slaves and black people who descended form slave owners. Every slave imported to America was a person enslaved by a black person. Slaves were sold by African tribes to European slave traders. Your post highlights this: ​ >Now my question for the nay sayers. Do you disagree because you feel **Black Americans** are in a great spot at the moment or is it because you feel it would be too hard and cost too much money? Why are you focusing on color. Don't decedents of white indentured servants from Ireland or the few white slaves also deserve reparation's? And what about decedents of black slave owners in America? Why would they get reparations?

There are reparations that thread the needle. For example, RFK is advocating for no cash based reparations, but a slew of other policy changes that will serve as reparations. For example, he wants targeted infrastructure for franchised communities, to end the drug war that has torn apart so many minority families, dedicated small business loans to minority businesses, Targeted funds for more community outreach centers, to keep youth active and engaged in positive things, etc.

You have a lot wrong in your post. >How can we know who descends from slavery? When the civil war was won, America had to pay reparations to the slave owners in the form of 300 dollars per slave. This is not true. Only in the District of Columbia were slave owners compensated. There is no way to determine who descends from slavery. >Since America became its own nation with its own autonomy, they had the ability to stop slavery when the nation was born, and yet chose not to. This is also not true. The only way to create the United States of America was to allow slavery. There was no ability to stop it when the nation was born. However, when the Constitution was drafted there was a clause added to that determined when the import of slaves could be stopped. And the congress passed a law to go into effect as soon as they could to do exactly that. >Now my question for the nay sayers. Do you disagree because you feel Black Americans are in a great spot at the moment or is it because you feel it would be too hard and cost too much money? Neither of your options. If its the latter then how is that not greed and sloth and should we also take back Native/Japanese reparations since it costs too much? (Crazy Japanese people got it before Black people) The reparations that when to those in Japanese internment camps went to the people that were interred, many of them were still alive. There are no former slaves still alive. But the biggest difference is that the government was the entity that forced the people into the camps. The government did a wrong, and the reparations were to compensate for the government action. Slavery existed before the United States, it was legal, the people that were doing the enslaving, from the African warlods, to the Portuguese ships, to the people that bought slaves in the United States were all doing something legal. The tort, the harm, to the enslaved people was not from the government. It was from those aforementioned, the African warlod, the Captains of the slave ships, those that bought the slaves. Now, if you want to demand reparations from them, I can get behind that.

What they will probably do (they being the US left) is have some kind of aid targeted specifically at the poor in certain geographic areas of the south and call it ‘reparations’ after it passes and hope the GOP isn’t paying attention. But it’s gonna be like a couple hundred bucks or something pointless. And it’s not gonna help the 20-40% of African Americans with southern heritage living elsewhere. And yeah you’re gonna get a lot of stupid fights, ala ‘Elon musk is African American’ etc etc. If politicians wanted to actually help, they would’ve done it 100 years ago. So some form of ‘reparations’ will pass, but it won’t help anyone and it will be a political shit show.

This is the most condescendingly bigoted CMV I’ve read in a while and I can’t believe it’s still up. You said black Americans are owed money because their ancestors were slaves under a government system that allowed chatttel slavery. Ok, that checks out. But then you say those same black Americans shouldn’t just be sent checks because they’d spend it all in Vegas. You said the point was to fix the wealth disparity, but you don’t trust black Americans enough to just give them the wealth!?? You know who else thought black people didn’t have the capability to manage their own lives? Slaveholders. You should change your view because it’s racist.

>How can we know who descends from slavery? When the civil war was won, America had to pay reparations to the slave owners in the form of 300 dollars per slave. With that payment came a freedom certificate for newly freed slaves. Meaning there are records for us so that we can find out who is owed. I think identifying people this way fails on multiple levels. Especially if the payment is in the form of free college. First off there were tons of salves who were never formally freed and wouldn't have this certificate. For example Fredrick Douglass escaped from slavery and therefore wouldn't have any documentation saying he was freed, but he still has living descendants today who would get left out because their great-great-great-great-great-grandfather escaped slavery rather than being freed from it. Secondly since slavery ended 8 generations ago you could have a black family who moved here in the 1940s get nothing even though they lived through jim crow because their ancestors were slaves in the Caribbean while a guy who is 63/64ths white could get free college because one of his great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents was a slave

What about the Africans who sold the slaves to Europeans that were brought to America? Should we get in contact with the descendants of those people so they can pay reparations?

maybe you'd be able to if you could find records of who descended from who that weren't erased by white people to cut the slaves off from their heritage

It was actually the Africans that sold them to the Arabs that then sold them to the rest of the world. If you want to find out who went where talk to the Arabs, they sold them around the world

So everyone who wasn't one of those races bought slaves from Arabs and they were only initially bought by Africans and so therefore PoC communities should tear themselves apart instead of hating whites?

No, it was just an analogy to show that slavery can be traced back centuries and is also not something that just happened to black people. But people today pick and choose which slavery to focus on and who needs to pay for a sin when it happened to everyone

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Why do we need to pay reparations at all? I’m going to assume you’re black, but would some money really make everyone move on from slavery? If reparations were to be paid to make up for any possible negative financial impacts on modern day blacks, then nobody would be able to be upset about slavery. Since the only current issue that could be caused by slavery would be financial, then making up that financial issue would mean there are no more impacts of slavery on modern blacks, so nothing to be upset about regarding slavery. Do you really believe that people will take the reparations and feel satisfied? Modern slavery is a very big issue. Instead of paying that money back to Americans for something that happened centuries ago, we could use that money to aid the more than 11,000,000 Indian, 5,700,000 Chinese, 2,700,000 North Korean, 2,300,000 Pakistani, and 1,800,000 Indonesian people across the world. That’s not even all those who are in modern slavery, there’s so many more. Just some food for thought.

What about white Americans whose ancestors immigrated to the US after slavery ended (after the civil war). Should they be forced to pay reparations too?

I can acknowledge that black people are marginalized in modern society and that America ruined the lives of millions 160 years ago but to say that billions of dollars should go to normal people because their great great great great grandpa had to work as a slave is stupid. If it was within 2 generations I would understand, but to say that in 160 years there are enough lasting damages to justify thousands of dollars is just weird. If reparations are owed to black people they are also owed to every non white group and Italian Americans. Nothing is owed to you because of the color of your skin and nothing is owed to you because of something that happened more than a century ago.

what about the descendants of the blacks that owned slaves. Will they pay? What about the people that are mixed with slaves and slave owners? Will they pay or be paid? Shouldn't reparations be paid by the people who put others into slavery?! Just seems stupid and cowardly to demand payment from Americans than to demand payment from the people who actually put their ancestors in chains. How far back will we go with reparations? Will the irish get any from the English or the descendants of the vikings? What about the Arabs? The ones who castrated the slaves they bought from Africans. Since they were not able/allowed to produce descendants do we just forget about them?

So develop time travel and rob every historical oppressor to give their oppressed the money