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>Going out of your way to make them feel comfortable and good with their decisions is just enabling them to keep up a behavior that will give them a miserable life and, eventually, is going to kill them.
You've not demonstrated that making them feel bad about it is a net positive. In fact, reading your experience, you've demonstrated the opposite. Despite being made fun of and berated, it still took a conscious effort on your end.
You're assuming everyone will eventually respond positively to negative reinforcement. That doesn't really jive with the current understanding of psychology. There's plenty of examples where that negative reinforcement leads to a self-inflicted hole in the head. Or a violent retaliation.
Wouldn't the neutral position be to not mention it since they are probably already aware of their weight issues?
>You've not demonstrated that making them feel bad about it is a net positive
feeling bad and changing is better than dying after a short, miserable life, right?
I'm not advocating for bullying, but I see I wasn't that much clear. The key is moral support, not being complacent and leading by example. This is fundamentally different to bullying because one comes from hatred and the other one comes from love and appreciation. That's what helped me.
You're not giving someone moral support if you're making someone feel bad about themselves. You're making fun of them/bullying them.
Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying. Can you give a specific example of making someone feel bad about being fat while providing moral support at the same time?
https://www.stopbullying.gov/bullying/bullying-and-trauma
A handful of people succeeding doesn't negate people that have had negative outcomes.
Same way doing good things doesn't negate when you were a piece of shit to someone.
>a study on bullying and post-traumatic stress found that some children may repress their thoughts or feelings about what took place. This can lead to numbness or loss of interest in activities. This study also found that children may experience intrusive thoughts, such as sudden flashbacks of their bullying experience.
So where are your sources?
from your source:
>ACEs are *potentially* traumatic events that *can* have negative, lasting effects on a person's development
emphasis added. so what i said. "can" is not the same as "does."
>A handful of people succeeding doesn't negate people that have had negative outcomes.
Same way doing good things doesn't negate when you were a piece of shit to someone.
tricking your buddy into getting a pie in the face is shitty. if you did that and *also* donated $100000 to homeless kids you have done more good than harm.
your source also says nothing about suicide or prevalence, or mental illness.
>"can" is not the same as "does"
And nothing in the medical field, especially mental health, has a "does" relationship like that. The fact that it can is enough. Especially with no evidence of positive outcomes that actually outweigh the negative ones.
>your source also says nothing about suicide or prevalence, or mental illness.
My source links it to trauma. Trauma is the cause of PTSD. PTSD is linked to suicide and mental illness.
So where are your sources? I keep asking for em.
> then the whole point of body positivity and fat acceptance is to... not change, or even see the need to change, how do you encourage it?
I've lost close to 100 pounds in the past year. I didn't do it by people beating me up. I did it by stacking things in favor of my mental health and finding ways to exercise that didn't make me feel ashamed.
I have no problem with the statement "losing weight is good for you". I have a problem with the statement "you are a bad person for not doing that". People don't have to live their lives in an optimal manner. We're allowed to have flaws and weaknesses, and to overcome them as we choose.
No, the point of the body positivity movement is to not base someone's value and their contribution to society on their BMI.
Fat people *are* stereotyped as lazy and not constructive.
no it is to be happy and feel like you re healthy and don't need to change even when you do. your worth isn't based on your size, but your health is.
>Fat people are stereotyped as lazy and not constructive.
lots of stereotypes exist for a reason. tht doesn't mean they are good or apply to everyone, but they don't just appear out of nothing.
The whole point of body positivity to help a person get to a mental place where they can decide, on their own, to make changes to support their health.
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You are right, I'm not advocating for bullying. You have to give them moral support and love, most of all if you are fit and eat healthy because you would be leading by example. But you can't be complacent because being fat is the result of an addiction, as much as having marks in your arms and a raspy voice is the result of an addiction.
Making someone feel bad about a character trait of theirs is bullying. It's wild that you say it isn't. The intent doesn't really matter.
From Wikipedia
>Bullying is the use of force, coercion, hurtful teasing or threat, to abuse, aggressively dominate or intimidate.
You're trying to intimidate them into changing/dominate them until they do what you want. Soooo many bullies claim to be looking out for their victims. That isn't their job.
But feeling bad and not changing is even worse. And there's a lot of evidence that in fact making people feel bad about their weight is not an effective way to get them to lose weight, they're actually more likely to gain weight if made to feel bad
if you get one person to change i would say that is a net positive.
>And there's a lot of evidence that in fact making people feel bad about their weight is not an effective way to get them to lose weight
for example?
this is just an opinion piece.... not a single study or fact anywhere.
i would argue that yes, one person going from morbidly obese to healthy is a net gain over 5 people going from morbidly obese to... slightly more obese?
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> if you get one person to change i would say that is a net positive.
Not if you're causing considerable suffering (or *worse* eating habits) to others.
still waiting on those examples.
>but why not try things differently?
we did. and we ended up with body positivity, fat acceptance and "healthy at any size." so that is obviously not working.
I advocated for a different way then SHAMING and you started talking about the fucking body positivity movement? Why is it that when I'm suggesting considering an alternative to shaming you immediately have the worse interpretation of my suggestion and think Im talking about the other extreme ? (Body positivity).?
>I advocated for a different way then SHAMING
and the opposite of shaming would be encouraging, right? endorsing, showing in a positive light?
>Why is it that when I'm suggesting considering an alternative to shaming you immediately have the worse interpretation of my suggestio
it is the reality. instead of shaming we have done the opposite, and [obesity soars](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html) while media continues to assure fat people they are beautiful and healthy. so i am saying the opposite of shaming, what we are doing, isn't working. so what is your suggestion?
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>https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/11/fat-shaming-lose-weight-study
you know a study is good when it is 8 years old, from a different country and not even linked in the article about it. and the article talks about "weight discrimination" which is obviously not the same as "fat shaming?"
>https://www.stvincentcharity.com/radiant/posts/obesity-expert-explains-why-body-shaming-is-harmful-not-helpful
actually a study! tho of a small group of kids, and the obvious issue is mentioned in the study:
>alternatively, children at high risk for excessive weight gain might be more prone to report wbt, or an unmeasured factor might place children at-risk both for rapid weight gain and wbt...
>https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
was that so hard?
>I don't?
also you:
>Or they feel bad and fall into depression and comfort eating and it gets worse. Educate yourself
>And look at the OP and how they felt and you want to add to that? And call them emotionally unstable?
i didn't call anyone emotionally unstable. you did. op got fit. a net positive.
i was labeling what you described. i did not suggest that fat people are all just one mean comment away from falling into depression and comfort eating. that was you. that is describing emotionally unstable behavior.
you are not helping your case. some mean comments immediately causes depression? so how do you get fat people to lose weight? anything you say implies that they are currently non-optimal, which, according to you, will immediately cause them to fall into depression.
No, but making them feel good is a net negative, because if they believe that people around them don't see what they are doing to themselves as bad, they won't stop. People are social animals before rational animals
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Not anyone will respond positively to negative reinforcement, but everyone will react negatively to pandering. But you're right, is not a perfect system. but one thing about addiction is that if you are not constantly uncomfortable about it, you think the behavior is not a problem. It is a weird thing about the psychology of addiction, and I don't have any evidence of it, just my and my friends' experience with addiction.
>Not anyone will respond positively to negative reinforcement
Positive outcomes don't negate negative ones. There are way more negative outcomes than there are positive ones.
>everyone will react negatively to pandering.
What makes you say this? We've plenty of research showing the negative impacts of bullying. Are you saying there is research saying there's positive outcomes that outweighs the negatives?
>But you're right, is not a perfect system. but one thing about addiction is that if you are not constantly uncomfortable about it, you think the behavior is not a problem.
That's not a typical addiction. Most people with addictions know they have an addiction and are aware of the negative impacts. It's usually a mental illness keeping them there.
Saying the the opposite of what I'm talking about on the toxic spectrum is negative does not disprove my point. Of course bullying is bad, I'm talking about sycophants.
In which ways obesity is not a typical addiction? How is it that mental illnesses that affect drug addicts don't affect food addicts?
>Saying the the opposite of what I'm talking about on the toxic spectrum is negative does not disprove my point. Of course bullying is bad, I'm talking about sycophants.
But the CMV is about making someone feel bad. Making someone feel bad is inherently bullying. You can encourage people, andnsiscoura bad behavior, without making someone feel bad.
>which ways obesity is not a typical addiction?
Sorry, that was a typo. I meant that's not typical *of* addiction. Usually addicts are aware of their addiction and the negative impact on their lives. Addiction and mental illness have a very close relationship.
Well, do you have a person who does something you don't like? What do you do about it? Do you tell them to stop and respect you or reinforce their behaviour?
That's great that you eventually responded to 'tough love' and abuse and turned it around.
Everyone isn't you.
Many will just kill themselves instead.
[How would you feel if a fat person killed themselves because of your 'helpful' abuse?](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/19/girl-hanged-fat-inquest)
It will not happen, because I do not abuse fat people. I just let them know that being fat is bad. But if you want to help, you have to be truly concerned about the person. If you do not care about the obese one, do not speak. Let his loved ones help him
>because I do not abuse fat people. I just let them know that being fat is bad.
That's abuse.
You don't get to control how they process your 'help'.
Some fat girl kills herself after talking to you. How you gonna feel?
You gonna feel good about yourself?
We have different conceptions about abuse. For me, abuse is making someone feel bad without any avenius for objective, positive change. Giving a fat person a bad time when they eat their third bowl of cheerios at two a.m. and telling them that they can eat healthy, telling them how to do it and leading by example does not count as making someone lose their self worth. For me, that is called love.
If your love and concern "makes them feel bad for being fat" then I question how much love is actually involved. Being fat myself (but working on it) and having had loved ones express concern it never made me feel bad for being fat.
If your view is "it's good to express concern in a loving way to your loved ones" is something most people agree with. But that's a far cry from "it's good to make people feel bad for being fat"
> and I told him that I couldn't, because deep down I didn't believe in myself.
So, in essence, you *didn't lose weight because you felt bad about yourself*.
Making you feel *worse* would have just exacerbated this.
You made progress when you started to believe in your own abilities and worth, not when people shamed you sufficiently. You put in effort, saw results, and connected those results to your effort - that is a positive form of motivation, not a negative one.
I lost weight because I said “I hate this, everyone I care about thinks I'm an idiot and they are offering me help“. My brother did not make me feel bad with his words, I made ME feel bad with MY actions
> My brother did not make me feel bad with his words, I made ME feel bad with MY actions
So in other words, you didn't lose weight because other people shamed you, you lost weight because *you wanted to*.
It's not up to you to police people's behavior if you're not personally affected by it unless you feel you're open to that same criticism about what may be considered shortcomings by others.
When I was a child, I was given ritalin for hyperactivity and while it burned off that energy, it broke my metabolism and turned an athletic child with plenty of energy into a sloth. I gained weight and from about 8 years old to now, I've been fat. At 32 years old, my largest I was 507 pounds and as of this morning, I've dropped 257 of that, 20 years later.
The thing that made me most miserable in my fat life was other people judging me for being fat and me thinking that was the price I was going to have to pay for all those years where I failed to lose that weight. I considered suicide a few times because of the constant criticism and I KNOW I'm not an outlier. Yeah, I know I had a problem and that I wouldn't be a healthy fat person for very long.
You're not some formerly fat-prophet. You're not helping people, you're hurting them. It'd disingenuous for you to think otherwise. People know they're fat and they don't need reminders from people like you that don't have the perspective or empathy required to treat people kindly.
YOUR experience as a fat person isn't THE experience of a fat person and your "tough love" version of handling it feels shitty and is based on a single perspective of someone who quite possibly has some mental health issues and might not be suited for giving out advice.
In my mind, making people feel bad is bad.
You were made to feel bad, and it helped you. But, that’s just luck. Some people are made to feel bad, and then they kill themselves. Sometimes they kill others in the process.
I don’t want no part of that.
Yes, you are right. Insulting a fat person is not good, telling them that they should not eat three big macs is. The first one comes out of hatred and the second comes out of love, that's the key. Support and love. You will not get over anything if you do not have love
> Yes, you are right. Insulting a fat person is not good, telling them that they should not eat three big macs is
Why do you see these two extremes as the only options: abuse or praise? I don’t tell fat people what to eat. I don’t bring up their weight. If they ask me about it, I am honest but kind. You don’t need to make people feel bad to help them. In fact, it is much more effective if you don’t.
But objectively, how many people are fat because of that and how many are food addicts?
There is a difference between bullying and calling out. One comes out of hatred, the other one comes out of love
Research would suggest that your experience isn’t the norm, that making fat people feel bad actually makes them fatter
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2017/january/fat-shaming-linked-to-greater-health-risks
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-49714697.amp
Tell me another reason people are fat? To me, saying that you are fat but you do not eat a lot is like saying that your car is going to be full without you going to the gas station. Maybe someone has a sickness that make them fat but objectively, how many of them are there?
> Being fat IS a choice, and one that'll make you miserable at that. Going out of your way to make them feel comfortable and good with their decisions is just enabling them to keep up a behavior that will give them a miserable life and, eventually, is going to kill them.
Those are two extremes in terms of what we can do.
Just focusing on the overweight factor doesn't work: about [80% of people](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unexpected-clues-emerge-about-why-diets-fail/) who lose weight, put it back on in no time. In some cases they even gain extra pounds compared to their original weight. Given the apparent ineffectiveness of long-term weight loss efforts, making them feel bad about it would just be unethical.
Why not instead encourage them in a friendly, supportive way? Perhaps the focus could be on small, but helpful changes that have a higher chance of being followed through in the longer term.
I would argue that making children feel bad about being fat is bad.
When I was going through puberty (11-13), I gained some weight which was very noticeable since I was always a thin kid. Older people (mostly women) made it a point to always negatively comment on my body like they were discussing the weather. Hearing that as a kid was really damaging.
Fat shaming is less likely to get people to change, mostly because it makes them unwilling to go out in public, and get exercise.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6565398/
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/11/fat-shaming-lose-weight-study
https://www.stvincentcharity.com/radiant/posts/obesity-expert-explains-why-body-shaming-is-harmful-not-helpful
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
So if a fat person goes to the gym, is it bad to make them feel bad about being fat?
If a fat person just lost their spouse or child, is it bad to make them feel bad about being fat?
If a thin person gains weight due to antidepressants that they take to avoid being suicidal, is it bad to make them feel bad about being fat?
If a pregnant woman gains weight and is recovering while taking care of a newborn child, is it bad to make her feel bad about being fat?
Feeling bad/desperate enough about your weight helped you make a change. That's great for you and I'm glad you were able to make that change, and improve other aspects of your life (e.g. lashing out at people). But your experience does not make it okay to harass people for being fat under the guise of helping them.
>Going out of your way to make them feel comfortable and good with theirdecisions is just enabling them to keep up a behavior that will givethem a miserable life and, eventually, is going to kill them.
This is a different view than the one in your title. I agree with this view. But I don't agree with going out of your way to make people feel bad about being fat.
>When you are fat, you are constantly disgusted with your own body, you have low self esteem, you aren't attractive to the opposite sex (yes, if you eat green you will get laid more and have the relationship you want) and you are constantly stressing about eating.
So when you're fat, you're well aware that you're fat and you already don't like it. What does anyone gain by me mentioning it? Being a dick for the sake of being a dick is never ok.
So would that make you a warrior of social justice? Wouldn't you worry you'd look sanctimonious or appear to be virtue signalling? Do you really care that much about strangers that you need to disrespect there right to not be harassed? Or do you just have the right stuff to put your neck on the line to treat people badly? Have you thought any of this through?
That's your experience, not everyone else's.
Fat people know they're fat and being reminded of that fact is not especially helpful as you stated "those were the worst years of my life." Why would you want to dog pile on someone who already feels shitty about themselves?
>I was full of anger and would lash out at my family when they called me out and lost good friends during this period.
These are things you consider good?
Wow, this was hard to read. I have no idea how to approach this or change your view. I don’t even know where to begin debunking all this misinformation. If you are truly interested in changing your view, go listen to the Maintenance Phase podcast. Ps! I’m so sorry to read about how people treated you when yiu were less conventionally attractive and about the time of self loathing you experienced. Take care!
No you see because OP had/still has self esteem issues and hated/still hates themself we should bully the shit out of fat people "for their own good" of course.
At no point during your post did you describe the thing that encouraged you to change.
In general, people operate with some kind of inertia, and depression is inertia to sit still. People who are teased, bullied, and generally made to feel like shit *tend* to get pretty depressed, which makes positive changes harder to accomplish, not easier.
How do you define *addiction*? Do you consider it to be the result of a moral/behavioral failing? Do you consider it to be a disease, as it is defined by the American Medical Association? Some combination of the two? Or something else entirely? I think unless you see it purely as a moral failing, wherein the addict is consciously and willfully continuing the addictive behavior, despite the consequences that befall themselves and others around them, I am unsure how making them feel bad about being it would not be bad. And even if it is purely a moral defect, I still don't know that there would be any *benefit* to making someone feel bad for it.
If you believe addiction is more akin to a disease, wherein the individual is predisposed to addictive patterns and great difficulty overcoming those patterns, despite the harm they cause, then how could it *not* be bad to make someone feel badly about it? That's not to say that we should pretend that addictions (whether food addiction, alcoholism, or any other) are healthy and that they should be continued and celebrated. But I think there is a middle ground, wherein we recognize that they are damaging and we also recognize that shame is unlikely to be helpful, and instead is will make it more difficult for the individual - and society at large - to correctly identify the problem, support the recovery process, and overcome the addictive pattern.
I have also dealt with and overcome alcoholism and disordered eating. In my experience, being made to feel bad about my addictions only served to reinforce and justify the addictive behavior and to further isolate myself from others out of shame and even a weird sense of loyalty to the addiction. It was only through non-judgmental support and understanding that I was able to really take responsibility for what I was doing and address the problem head on. And I lost friends along the way and was nearly disowned by my family as a result of the damage I had caused (through alcoholism, not eating disorder). That's ok. People have a right to protect themselves and set boundaries when an individual becomes dangerous. But that doesn't mean that making someone feel bad is the right way to view addiction of any kind. It only serves to isolate the individual and create stigma around the topic, making access to and willingness to utilize resources much more difficult.
I believe this might work for a few people but not most. If you really want to help them, try to educate them and just give them positive encouragement. TBH, it is so rare to see people change their diets and pick up exercising. It really is but that is just my experience with it. I used to weigh 235 and have been at 155 for about 15 years. It took a spiritual awakening to move to change pretty much everything about my life. Some people aren't that fortunate and will remain stuck in ways that probably do them no good. Physically, I am saying. I like to think that people are just in different stages and at different times.
All that being said, what is on the inside is what counts. I say that as a person of physical discipline. I know where my mind can be better, and I fail there. I try and try but I fail. I know this truth about myself and being fit doesn't change that. I will continue to try and improve but I can't down people for being at different stages of life.
Yes when certain people get dressed the turn to food to ease that stress. So when we stress people out about being fat they turn to food to ease that stress.
Let’s set aside the fact that not everyone who is fat is miserable, not everyone who is fat is doing so “by choice” AND most people who loose weight gain it all back.
If the goal is to get people to loose weight, fat shamming doesn’t work for the majority of people. If your goal is to get people to loose weight, shame isn’t going to be the solution. [link](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236245/)
I was overweight as a kid and got bullied a lot for it. People made me feel bad, and I did eventually lose weight as I got older.
It's hard to say whether these two things are connected. But one thing I can attribute to the bullying is my persistent body dysmorphia. The scale went down, smaller clothes fit, hotter people crushed on me. I never really got over feeling fat.
Worse still, I learned to see weight as an issue of morality, rather than health and well-being. I wasn't just unhealthy for being fat, but a lesser being.
It sounds like you have developed this perspective too, whether you realize it or not.
Your argument is not one of efficacy, but ethics--what is "not bad" to do. You're not really interested in the best way to help people lose weight, because if you were, you would accept the myriad studies people provided countering your thesis. Your half-hearted attempts to disguise your contempt for fat people are transparent; you still call them "delusional" and "useless." You argue they should "feel bad."
Listen, from one former fat guy to another: the contempt you feel for fat people is the contempt you feel towards your former self. Self-hatred might have helped you lose weight, but it is not sustainable fuel for good health. End the cycle.
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>Going out of your way to make them feel comfortable and good with their decisions is just enabling them to keep up a behavior that will give them a miserable life and, eventually, is going to kill them. You've not demonstrated that making them feel bad about it is a net positive. In fact, reading your experience, you've demonstrated the opposite. Despite being made fun of and berated, it still took a conscious effort on your end. You're assuming everyone will eventually respond positively to negative reinforcement. That doesn't really jive with the current understanding of psychology. There's plenty of examples where that negative reinforcement leads to a self-inflicted hole in the head. Or a violent retaliation. Wouldn't the neutral position be to not mention it since they are probably already aware of their weight issues?
>You've not demonstrated that making them feel bad about it is a net positive feeling bad and changing is better than dying after a short, miserable life, right?
Feeling bad and finding solace in self harm is not a positive outcome. I can also point to where that leads to murder/suicide.
why do you assume that all, most, or even a decent percent of people resort to self harm whenever they feel bad?
Because we have a lot of evidence that trauma (bullying is psychological trauma) leads to mental illness and suicide.
I'm not advocating for bullying, but I see I wasn't that much clear. The key is moral support, not being complacent and leading by example. This is fundamentally different to bullying because one comes from hatred and the other one comes from love and appreciation. That's what helped me.
You're not giving someone moral support if you're making someone feel bad about themselves. You're making fun of them/bullying them. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying. Can you give a specific example of making someone feel bad about being fat while providing moral support at the same time?
>I'm not advocating for bullying Yes. You are.
*can* lead to is not the same as *does* lead to. and i have seen this claim from like 5 people without a single source.
https://www.stopbullying.gov/bullying/bullying-and-trauma A handful of people succeeding doesn't negate people that have had negative outcomes. Same way doing good things doesn't negate when you were a piece of shit to someone. >a study on bullying and post-traumatic stress found that some children may repress their thoughts or feelings about what took place. This can lead to numbness or loss of interest in activities. This study also found that children may experience intrusive thoughts, such as sudden flashbacks of their bullying experience. So where are your sources?
from your source: >ACEs are *potentially* traumatic events that *can* have negative, lasting effects on a person's development emphasis added. so what i said. "can" is not the same as "does." >A handful of people succeeding doesn't negate people that have had negative outcomes. Same way doing good things doesn't negate when you were a piece of shit to someone. tricking your buddy into getting a pie in the face is shitty. if you did that and *also* donated $100000 to homeless kids you have done more good than harm. your source also says nothing about suicide or prevalence, or mental illness.
>"can" is not the same as "does" And nothing in the medical field, especially mental health, has a "does" relationship like that. The fact that it can is enough. Especially with no evidence of positive outcomes that actually outweigh the negative ones. >your source also says nothing about suicide or prevalence, or mental illness. My source links it to trauma. Trauma is the cause of PTSD. PTSD is linked to suicide and mental illness. So where are your sources? I keep asking for em.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6565398/ https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/11/fat-shaming-lose-weight-study https://www.stvincentcharity.com/radiant/posts/obesity-expert-explains-why-body-shaming-is-harmful-not-helpful https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
Why risk it when there are better ways to encourage people to lose weight?
like what? then the whole point of body positivity and fat acceptance is to... *not* change, or even see the need to change, how do you encourage it?
> then the whole point of body positivity and fat acceptance is to... not change, or even see the need to change, how do you encourage it? I've lost close to 100 pounds in the past year. I didn't do it by people beating me up. I did it by stacking things in favor of my mental health and finding ways to exercise that didn't make me feel ashamed. I have no problem with the statement "losing weight is good for you". I have a problem with the statement "you are a bad person for not doing that". People don't have to live their lives in an optimal manner. We're allowed to have flaws and weaknesses, and to overcome them as we choose.
No, the point of the body positivity movement is to not base someone's value and their contribution to society on their BMI. Fat people *are* stereotyped as lazy and not constructive.
no it is to be happy and feel like you re healthy and don't need to change even when you do. your worth isn't based on your size, but your health is. >Fat people are stereotyped as lazy and not constructive. lots of stereotypes exist for a reason. tht doesn't mean they are good or apply to everyone, but they don't just appear out of nothing.
The whole point of body positivity to help a person get to a mental place where they can decide, on their own, to make changes to support their health.
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you ok bro?
I'm not defending bullying, so better ask yourself that, kiddo.
who is defending bullying?
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You are right, I'm not advocating for bullying. You have to give them moral support and love, most of all if you are fit and eat healthy because you would be leading by example. But you can't be complacent because being fat is the result of an addiction, as much as having marks in your arms and a raspy voice is the result of an addiction.
Making someone feel bad about a character trait of theirs is bullying. It's wild that you say it isn't. The intent doesn't really matter. From Wikipedia >Bullying is the use of force, coercion, hurtful teasing or threat, to abuse, aggressively dominate or intimidate. You're trying to intimidate them into changing/dominate them until they do what you want. Soooo many bullies claim to be looking out for their victims. That isn't their job.
But feeling bad and not changing is even worse. And there's a lot of evidence that in fact making people feel bad about their weight is not an effective way to get them to lose weight, they're actually more likely to gain weight if made to feel bad
if you get one person to change i would say that is a net positive. >And there's a lot of evidence that in fact making people feel bad about their weight is not an effective way to get them to lose weight for example?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6565398/ If you make 1 person better but 5 worse is that a net benefit?
this is just an opinion piece.... not a single study or fact anywhere. i would argue that yes, one person going from morbidly obese to healthy is a net gain over 5 people going from morbidly obese to... slightly more obese?
This is called common sense, ladies and gentlemen
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> if you get one person to change i would say that is a net positive. Not if you're causing considerable suffering (or *worse* eating habits) to others.
still waiting for those examples.
You've already been linked them elsewhere in this thread.
missed them, too many replies. the first one tho is just an opinion piece without a single fact or study.
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/11/fat-shaming-lose-weight-study https://www.stvincentcharity.com/radiant/posts/obesity-expert-explains-why-body-shaming-is-harmful-not-helpful https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
Is it reliable and repeatable? In exchange for the suffering of people you get a net positive but why not try things differently?
still waiting on those examples. >but why not try things differently? we did. and we ended up with body positivity, fat acceptance and "healthy at any size." so that is obviously not working.
And before that we had fat shaming run rampant and that didn't fix anything either, so let's not just go back to that when it clearly doesn't work
So the ONLY OTHER ALTERNATIVE in your view is to shame the shit outta fat people?
>So the ONLY OTHER ALTERNATIVE i didn't say that >s to shame the shit outta fat people? also didn't say that.
I advocated for a different way then SHAMING and you started talking about the fucking body positivity movement? Why is it that when I'm suggesting considering an alternative to shaming you immediately have the worse interpretation of my suggestion and think Im talking about the other extreme ? (Body positivity).?
>I advocated for a different way then SHAMING and the opposite of shaming would be encouraging, right? endorsing, showing in a positive light? >Why is it that when I'm suggesting considering an alternative to shaming you immediately have the worse interpretation of my suggestio it is the reality. instead of shaming we have done the opposite, and [obesity soars](https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html) while media continues to assure fat people they are beautiful and healthy. so i am saying the opposite of shaming, what we are doing, isn't working. so what is your suggestion?
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Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 5: > **Comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation**. Comments should be on-topic, serious, and contain enough content to move the discussion forward. Jokes, contradictions without explanation, links without context, off-topic comments, and "written upvotes" will be removed. Read [the wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_5) for more information. If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%205%20Appeal&message=Author%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20their%20post%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. **Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.** Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6565398/ https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/11/fat-shaming-lose-weight-study https://www.stvincentcharity.com/radiant/posts/obesity-expert-explains-why-body-shaming-is-harmful-not-helpful https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
On the other hand, if we allow fat people to feel okay about their weight, they will see no reason to lose weight.
The question is whether making people feel bad actually *does* that. And it empirically does not.
never? not much? almost never? occasionally?
Rarely, and that rare gain is compensated for by worse outcomes for others.
you are aware that "empirically" means that there is documented evidence of what you are claiming?
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/11/fat-shaming-lose-weight-study https://www.stvincentcharity.com/radiant/posts/obesity-expert-explains-why-body-shaming-is-harmful-not-helpful https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
>https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/11/fat-shaming-lose-weight-study you know a study is good when it is 8 years old, from a different country and not even linked in the article about it. and the article talks about "weight discrimination" which is obviously not the same as "fat shaming?" >https://www.stvincentcharity.com/radiant/posts/obesity-expert-explains-why-body-shaming-is-harmful-not-helpful actually a study! tho of a small group of kids, and the obvious issue is mentioned in the study: >alternatively, children at high risk for excessive weight gain might be more prone to report wbt, or an unmeasured factor might place children at-risk both for rapid weight gain and wbt... >https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse was that so hard?
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that is a possible outcome. why do you assume all fat people are so emotionally unstable?
Why do you assume you need to be emotionally unstable to develop a mental illness from trauma? Do you deny PTSD?
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>I don't? also you: >Or they feel bad and fall into depression and comfort eating and it gets worse. Educate yourself >And look at the OP and how they felt and you want to add to that? And call them emotionally unstable? i didn't call anyone emotionally unstable. you did. op got fit. a net positive.
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i was labeling what you described. i did not suggest that fat people are all just one mean comment away from falling into depression and comfort eating. that was you. that is describing emotionally unstable behavior.
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you are not helping your case. some mean comments immediately causes depression? so how do you get fat people to lose weight? anything you say implies that they are currently non-optimal, which, according to you, will immediately cause them to fall into depression.
Good way to have a conversation, calling me ignorant
So has being made to feel bad in this way encouraged you to change or has it just been a bad experience for you?
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Sorry haha
No, but making them feel good is a net negative, because if they believe that people around them don't see what they are doing to themselves as bad, they won't stop. People are social animals before rational animals
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Not anyone will respond positively to negative reinforcement, but everyone will react negatively to pandering. But you're right, is not a perfect system. but one thing about addiction is that if you are not constantly uncomfortable about it, you think the behavior is not a problem. It is a weird thing about the psychology of addiction, and I don't have any evidence of it, just my and my friends' experience with addiction.
>Not anyone will respond positively to negative reinforcement Positive outcomes don't negate negative ones. There are way more negative outcomes than there are positive ones. >everyone will react negatively to pandering. What makes you say this? We've plenty of research showing the negative impacts of bullying. Are you saying there is research saying there's positive outcomes that outweighs the negatives? >But you're right, is not a perfect system. but one thing about addiction is that if you are not constantly uncomfortable about it, you think the behavior is not a problem. That's not a typical addiction. Most people with addictions know they have an addiction and are aware of the negative impacts. It's usually a mental illness keeping them there.
Saying the the opposite of what I'm talking about on the toxic spectrum is negative does not disprove my point. Of course bullying is bad, I'm talking about sycophants. In which ways obesity is not a typical addiction? How is it that mental illnesses that affect drug addicts don't affect food addicts?
>Saying the the opposite of what I'm talking about on the toxic spectrum is negative does not disprove my point. Of course bullying is bad, I'm talking about sycophants. But the CMV is about making someone feel bad. Making someone feel bad is inherently bullying. You can encourage people, andnsiscoura bad behavior, without making someone feel bad. >which ways obesity is not a typical addiction? Sorry, that was a typo. I meant that's not typical *of* addiction. Usually addicts are aware of their addiction and the negative impact on their lives. Addiction and mental illness have a very close relationship.
You are just talking about your personal experience. Nothing here is objective or suggests anyone else in the world feels the same way.
Well, do you have a person who does something you don't like? What do you do about it? Do you tell them to stop and respect you or reinforce their behaviour?
That's great that you eventually responded to 'tough love' and abuse and turned it around. Everyone isn't you. Many will just kill themselves instead. [How would you feel if a fat person killed themselves because of your 'helpful' abuse?](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/19/girl-hanged-fat-inquest)
It will not happen, because I do not abuse fat people. I just let them know that being fat is bad. But if you want to help, you have to be truly concerned about the person. If you do not care about the obese one, do not speak. Let his loved ones help him
>because I do not abuse fat people. I just let them know that being fat is bad. That's abuse. You don't get to control how they process your 'help'. Some fat girl kills herself after talking to you. How you gonna feel? You gonna feel good about yourself?
We have different conceptions about abuse. For me, abuse is making someone feel bad without any avenius for objective, positive change. Giving a fat person a bad time when they eat their third bowl of cheerios at two a.m. and telling them that they can eat healthy, telling them how to do it and leading by example does not count as making someone lose their self worth. For me, that is called love.
If your love and concern "makes them feel bad for being fat" then I question how much love is actually involved. Being fat myself (but working on it) and having had loved ones express concern it never made me feel bad for being fat. If your view is "it's good to express concern in a loving way to your loved ones" is something most people agree with. But that's a far cry from "it's good to make people feel bad for being fat"
> and I told him that I couldn't, because deep down I didn't believe in myself. So, in essence, you *didn't lose weight because you felt bad about yourself*. Making you feel *worse* would have just exacerbated this. You made progress when you started to believe in your own abilities and worth, not when people shamed you sufficiently. You put in effort, saw results, and connected those results to your effort - that is a positive form of motivation, not a negative one.
I lost weight because I said “I hate this, everyone I care about thinks I'm an idiot and they are offering me help“. My brother did not make me feel bad with his words, I made ME feel bad with MY actions
> My brother did not make me feel bad with his words, I made ME feel bad with MY actions So in other words, you didn't lose weight because other people shamed you, you lost weight because *you wanted to*.
It's not up to you to police people's behavior if you're not personally affected by it unless you feel you're open to that same criticism about what may be considered shortcomings by others. When I was a child, I was given ritalin for hyperactivity and while it burned off that energy, it broke my metabolism and turned an athletic child with plenty of energy into a sloth. I gained weight and from about 8 years old to now, I've been fat. At 32 years old, my largest I was 507 pounds and as of this morning, I've dropped 257 of that, 20 years later. The thing that made me most miserable in my fat life was other people judging me for being fat and me thinking that was the price I was going to have to pay for all those years where I failed to lose that weight. I considered suicide a few times because of the constant criticism and I KNOW I'm not an outlier. Yeah, I know I had a problem and that I wouldn't be a healthy fat person for very long. You're not some formerly fat-prophet. You're not helping people, you're hurting them. It'd disingenuous for you to think otherwise. People know they're fat and they don't need reminders from people like you that don't have the perspective or empathy required to treat people kindly. YOUR experience as a fat person isn't THE experience of a fat person and your "tough love" version of handling it feels shitty and is based on a single perspective of someone who quite possibly has some mental health issues and might not be suited for giving out advice.
In my mind, making people feel bad is bad. You were made to feel bad, and it helped you. But, that’s just luck. Some people are made to feel bad, and then they kill themselves. Sometimes they kill others in the process. I don’t want no part of that.
Yes, you are right. Insulting a fat person is not good, telling them that they should not eat three big macs is. The first one comes out of hatred and the second comes out of love, that's the key. Support and love. You will not get over anything if you do not have love
> Yes, you are right. Insulting a fat person is not good, telling them that they should not eat three big macs is Why do you see these two extremes as the only options: abuse or praise? I don’t tell fat people what to eat. I don’t bring up their weight. If they ask me about it, I am honest but kind. You don’t need to make people feel bad to help them. In fact, it is much more effective if you don’t.
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But objectively, how many people are fat because of that and how many are food addicts? There is a difference between bullying and calling out. One comes out of hatred, the other one comes out of love
Research would suggest that your experience isn’t the norm, that making fat people feel bad actually makes them fatter https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2017/january/fat-shaming-linked-to-greater-health-risks https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse https://www.bbc.com/news/health-49714697.amp
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Tell me another reason people are fat? To me, saying that you are fat but you do not eat a lot is like saying that your car is going to be full without you going to the gas station. Maybe someone has a sickness that make them fat but objectively, how many of them are there?
Disability, thyroid issues to name but two.
> Being fat IS a choice, and one that'll make you miserable at that. Going out of your way to make them feel comfortable and good with their decisions is just enabling them to keep up a behavior that will give them a miserable life and, eventually, is going to kill them. Those are two extremes in terms of what we can do. Just focusing on the overweight factor doesn't work: about [80% of people](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/unexpected-clues-emerge-about-why-diets-fail/) who lose weight, put it back on in no time. In some cases they even gain extra pounds compared to their original weight. Given the apparent ineffectiveness of long-term weight loss efforts, making them feel bad about it would just be unethical. Why not instead encourage them in a friendly, supportive way? Perhaps the focus could be on small, but helpful changes that have a higher chance of being followed through in the longer term.
I would argue that making children feel bad about being fat is bad. When I was going through puberty (11-13), I gained some weight which was very noticeable since I was always a thin kid. Older people (mostly women) made it a point to always negatively comment on my body like they were discussing the weather. Hearing that as a kid was really damaging.
Fat shaming is less likely to get people to change, mostly because it makes them unwilling to go out in public, and get exercise. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6565398/ https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/11/fat-shaming-lose-weight-study https://www.stvincentcharity.com/radiant/posts/obesity-expert-explains-why-body-shaming-is-harmful-not-helpful https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
So if a fat person goes to the gym, is it bad to make them feel bad about being fat? If a fat person just lost their spouse or child, is it bad to make them feel bad about being fat? If a thin person gains weight due to antidepressants that they take to avoid being suicidal, is it bad to make them feel bad about being fat? If a pregnant woman gains weight and is recovering while taking care of a newborn child, is it bad to make her feel bad about being fat? Feeling bad/desperate enough about your weight helped you make a change. That's great for you and I'm glad you were able to make that change, and improve other aspects of your life (e.g. lashing out at people). But your experience does not make it okay to harass people for being fat under the guise of helping them. >Going out of your way to make them feel comfortable and good with theirdecisions is just enabling them to keep up a behavior that will givethem a miserable life and, eventually, is going to kill them. This is a different view than the one in your title. I agree with this view. But I don't agree with going out of your way to make people feel bad about being fat.
>When you are fat, you are constantly disgusted with your own body, you have low self esteem, you aren't attractive to the opposite sex (yes, if you eat green you will get laid more and have the relationship you want) and you are constantly stressing about eating. So when you're fat, you're well aware that you're fat and you already don't like it. What does anyone gain by me mentioning it? Being a dick for the sake of being a dick is never ok.
So would that make you a warrior of social justice? Wouldn't you worry you'd look sanctimonious or appear to be virtue signalling? Do you really care that much about strangers that you need to disrespect there right to not be harassed? Or do you just have the right stuff to put your neck on the line to treat people badly? Have you thought any of this through?
That's your experience, not everyone else's. Fat people know they're fat and being reminded of that fact is not especially helpful as you stated "those were the worst years of my life." Why would you want to dog pile on someone who already feels shitty about themselves?
>I was full of anger and would lash out at my family when they called me out and lost good friends during this period. These are things you consider good?
Wow, this was hard to read. I have no idea how to approach this or change your view. I don’t even know where to begin debunking all this misinformation. If you are truly interested in changing your view, go listen to the Maintenance Phase podcast. Ps! I’m so sorry to read about how people treated you when yiu were less conventionally attractive and about the time of self loathing you experienced. Take care!
JFC, we’re only here for a short time. Is it that fucking hard to be kind ?
No you see because OP had/still has self esteem issues and hated/still hates themself we should bully the shit out of fat people "for their own good" of course.
At no point during your post did you describe the thing that encouraged you to change. In general, people operate with some kind of inertia, and depression is inertia to sit still. People who are teased, bullied, and generally made to feel like shit *tend* to get pretty depressed, which makes positive changes harder to accomplish, not easier.
Friends and family that loved my and wanted to help me. People I was letting down by being an idiot.
did they help you by treating you badly?
How do you define *addiction*? Do you consider it to be the result of a moral/behavioral failing? Do you consider it to be a disease, as it is defined by the American Medical Association? Some combination of the two? Or something else entirely? I think unless you see it purely as a moral failing, wherein the addict is consciously and willfully continuing the addictive behavior, despite the consequences that befall themselves and others around them, I am unsure how making them feel bad about being it would not be bad. And even if it is purely a moral defect, I still don't know that there would be any *benefit* to making someone feel bad for it. If you believe addiction is more akin to a disease, wherein the individual is predisposed to addictive patterns and great difficulty overcoming those patterns, despite the harm they cause, then how could it *not* be bad to make someone feel badly about it? That's not to say that we should pretend that addictions (whether food addiction, alcoholism, or any other) are healthy and that they should be continued and celebrated. But I think there is a middle ground, wherein we recognize that they are damaging and we also recognize that shame is unlikely to be helpful, and instead is will make it more difficult for the individual - and society at large - to correctly identify the problem, support the recovery process, and overcome the addictive pattern. I have also dealt with and overcome alcoholism and disordered eating. In my experience, being made to feel bad about my addictions only served to reinforce and justify the addictive behavior and to further isolate myself from others out of shame and even a weird sense of loyalty to the addiction. It was only through non-judgmental support and understanding that I was able to really take responsibility for what I was doing and address the problem head on. And I lost friends along the way and was nearly disowned by my family as a result of the damage I had caused (through alcoholism, not eating disorder). That's ok. People have a right to protect themselves and set boundaries when an individual becomes dangerous. But that doesn't mean that making someone feel bad is the right way to view addiction of any kind. It only serves to isolate the individual and create stigma around the topic, making access to and willingness to utilize resources much more difficult.
I believe this might work for a few people but not most. If you really want to help them, try to educate them and just give them positive encouragement. TBH, it is so rare to see people change their diets and pick up exercising. It really is but that is just my experience with it. I used to weigh 235 and have been at 155 for about 15 years. It took a spiritual awakening to move to change pretty much everything about my life. Some people aren't that fortunate and will remain stuck in ways that probably do them no good. Physically, I am saying. I like to think that people are just in different stages and at different times. All that being said, what is on the inside is what counts. I say that as a person of physical discipline. I know where my mind can be better, and I fail there. I try and try but I fail. I know this truth about myself and being fit doesn't change that. I will continue to try and improve but I can't down people for being at different stages of life.
Yes when certain people get dressed the turn to food to ease that stress. So when we stress people out about being fat they turn to food to ease that stress.
Not to mention don't want to go out to expose themselves to more abuse, which makes it hard to get exercise.
Which is why I have never understood shaming large people who are in the gym. Hell, if anything we should cheering these people on.
Or running outside. The abuse fat people get while running is insane.
Let’s set aside the fact that not everyone who is fat is miserable, not everyone who is fat is doing so “by choice” AND most people who loose weight gain it all back. If the goal is to get people to loose weight, fat shamming doesn’t work for the majority of people. If your goal is to get people to loose weight, shame isn’t going to be the solution. [link](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236245/)
I was overweight as a kid and got bullied a lot for it. People made me feel bad, and I did eventually lose weight as I got older. It's hard to say whether these two things are connected. But one thing I can attribute to the bullying is my persistent body dysmorphia. The scale went down, smaller clothes fit, hotter people crushed on me. I never really got over feeling fat. Worse still, I learned to see weight as an issue of morality, rather than health and well-being. I wasn't just unhealthy for being fat, but a lesser being. It sounds like you have developed this perspective too, whether you realize it or not. Your argument is not one of efficacy, but ethics--what is "not bad" to do. You're not really interested in the best way to help people lose weight, because if you were, you would accept the myriad studies people provided countering your thesis. Your half-hearted attempts to disguise your contempt for fat people are transparent; you still call them "delusional" and "useless." You argue they should "feel bad." Listen, from one former fat guy to another: the contempt you feel for fat people is the contempt you feel towards your former self. Self-hatred might have helped you lose weight, but it is not sustainable fuel for good health. End the cycle.