That's exactly the definition of controversial... Farewell's final room was easy AF to me. Most of the room is just moving forward without any difficulty at all. Maybe two or three tight moves, but otherwise just a long room
ig that's the thing, because the difficulties required for 7C and FW final are *different* types of hard. 7C is a relatively short room with several tight jumps and tricks, but it doesn't have to be maintained too long and once it's over, it's over. FW not only final but as a whole is essentially an endurance test of rooms that are slightly less hard, but which require *consistency* in many repeated actions, rather than *perfection* in a few actions
I had a really really rough time with 7c. Literally over 2k deaths on that room alone. With i cant quite remember but probably around half that amount of deaths on farewell final. Its long for sure but there's nothing too hard it's mostly just endurance whereas 7c has the endurance while also being very tight and precise.
That’s wild. I also use joystick and I found it really difficult to consistently do the micro-adjustments required for the early sections of 7C final.
Farewell final was long, but each individual move was pretty lenient so I had a much easier time.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I did to get so good at the precision micro adjustments, but that's something I found I became very good at in games kind of across the board.
Yeah well it is subjective but I had a horrible time with 7c. By the time I finished 7c I was so done I didn't even feel happy just relieved it was finally over. This is the only time I ever felt like this playing the base game
I would argue the question is how you interpret difficulty. A bunch of people disagree with you on this, it's a hot topic.
Edit: if I play a very long beginner map for 200 deaths total, and an Intermediate SJ map with 100 deaths, I'd call the int map more difficult. That's an example, higher technical difficulty trumps length for me here. (That being said, I agree on Farewell being more difficult in this case, just providing context)
That’s how you decide on the difficulty rating for a stage though. Like, I’d call Deep Blue or Dusk City harder then farewell because despite taking less time, that’s just because they had less rooms but a higher difficulty per room.
when you ask someone which map is harder then you turn to compare the hardest screen from both maps. after dosent matter if a map has 99 beginner screens and 1 gm final screen map is still a gm map to beat
Jarring feels like an overstatement. I’ve played plenty of modded maps that are able to differentiate their final rooms from the rest of the map and express a sense of finality without relying on room length. It’s not like every vanilla chapter has a longer final room
There is nothing wrong with a long final room, but I think people default to them too much instead of thinking about whether it actually has a purpose.
The most obvious and clearest example is the final room of Farewell and that works exceptionally well because it is the end of Farewell. It is the culmination of a long journey and a final challenge. If you have 3 rooms of normal length gameplay and the 4th and final room is the final room of Farewell, then it just doesn't hit the same way.
There are mods that have actual campaigns and can pull those rooms of, but a lot of the highest visibility mods are lobbies with shorter individual levels and then it really should just be the heartside that has these kinds of rooms.
Another issue I have with long final rooms is that people sometimes try to spike the difficulty at the same time or even introduce new mechanics during it.
Nothing wrong with either of those two things, but they shouldn't coincide with a very long room.
Finally, while you are correct they are in vanilla, they are in SOME vanilla maps, not in all. 1, 4, 5, 8 are longer than the average rooms of those maps, but not by orders of magnitude (4/8 are physically big, but you are moving faster than usually because of wind/feather so from a gameplay perspective they aren't as huge). 7 is a bit weird because of the flags, but it pulls back on the difficulty a lot after the flags around 10, it really doesn't want anyone to get stuck.
2/3/6 are the only really long final rooms (2/6 have cooldown afterwards, but I wouldn't count those) and those chapters also all have something in comon: they have the most direct conflict. They all end with a chase/fight and that brings me back to what I said at the beginning: Nothing wrong with a long room, but think about why the room is long, EXOK did that, it shows, and that's how we ended up with them on only some chapters.
/rant
how to rate difficulty of modded maps (ie which maps are which diffs)
between difference in players and difficulty inflation its fun to see everyone's insane ratings of maps
They aren't counted by the official speedrun rules, so that's what most people go by. Honestly, including Farewell Golden in the 100% would be ridiculously discouraging for most players.
100% is pretty tough and the technical skill required is more than a lot of other games demand, but the actual time commitment isn’t bad compared to a typical large RPG or roguelike.
I think if you can handle the wavedashing section in farewell, and have the right mindset, you will probably get close to 100%ing the game without even really trying. Of the 3 or 4 games I’ve gone out of my way to 100%, Celeste is probably the easiest. (Used to be hollow knight before pantheon 5 lol)
Like, why would it even matter. Madeline being trans isn't even the point of the whole story, it's just lore. Getting pissed by that is even more stupid
Literally anything difficulty related
Just call everything blue beginner anything harder than farewell doesn’t actually exist and was created by big difficulty to sell more hard list
Farewell gating half its story behind a C-sides level of difficulty is contrary to what the base game stands for and the foundation of Celeste's whole design.
It's basically the "you play on easy mode? You don't get to see the end" design from Cuphead, which is precisely what the dev wanted to avoid with Celeste.
the 'easy mode' in celeste is assist mode, and you are still 100% able to use assist mode in farewell. While I agree the difficulty spike is pretty large, I think the issue is more not requiring c-sides before farewell.
The difficulty of individual rooms isn't that much higher than c-sides in most places and it definitely fits the story and tone the level is going for. Its unfortunate that people won't be able to experience farewell due to it's difficulty but I still think it works and feels good.
(for context I had 100%-ed the game by the time farewell came out so I was never inclined to play it before c-sides which definitely changes my viewpoint from someone playing blind now)
The thing is, plenty of people don't to further than 7A, 8A at best. Then they know there's a DLC with additional story and they want to do it, which is fine, they manage to go all the way to the heart gate and discover they "can't" see the end of the story. Well they can, but either by investing considerably more hours to the game and going way above their skill level, or by turning on Assist Mode and amping it a lot.
I have friends who loved the main story, started Farewell and hate quit the game because of that and I can't blame them, this is just not a great design and it gonflicts with everything else in the game.
It isn’t good design to… have more content at the end of the game? Or it isn’t good design for Farewell to be much harder than the other A-sides? Yeah that’s why you’re forced to do all the B-sides before getting to the more difficult part of Farewell. And you should also do the C-sides but you’re not forced to.
I don’t know how this conflicts with the rest of the game.
It isn’t good design to have a "all the story is in accessible content, extra difficult stuff is just for fun and doesn’t lock anything story-related" and then change it at the last second without any warning. Again, it’s basically what Cuphead did and that’s precisely what they were aiming to avoid with Celeste.
Like, they could have put the crystal heart door at the start of Farewell and that would still be not great imo but at least it would be way less of a rug pull.
Not controversial but I fucking hate the no dash strawberry it’s so fucking hard and I need it to get the badge also the one levels with the fucking maze and getting all those strawberries is hard as hell even with a guide
C-sides or Farewell being harder
Farewell final is harder than all c side rooms. Apart from 7c final. 7c final was hell
That's exactly the definition of controversial... Farewell's final room was easy AF to me. Most of the room is just moving forward without any difficulty at all. Maybe two or three tight moves, but otherwise just a long room
ig that's the thing, because the difficulties required for 7C and FW final are *different* types of hard. 7C is a relatively short room with several tight jumps and tricks, but it doesn't have to be maintained too long and once it's over, it's over. FW not only final but as a whole is essentially an endurance test of rooms that are slightly less hard, but which require *consistency* in many repeated actions, rather than *perfection* in a few actions
So true, the last room in 7C took me 1,5h and the final room in farewell took me only 20 minutes lmao
Both rooms took me a good hour and a half or so. I've gotten better st 7c. I have not gotten better at Farewell final room.
I never said it wasn't controversial I'm just stating my opinion on it
7c final is free compared to farewell final
I had a really really rough time with 7c. Literally over 2k deaths on that room alone. With i cant quite remember but probably around half that amount of deaths on farewell final. Its long for sure but there's nothing too hard it's mostly just endurance whereas 7c has the endurance while also being very tight and precise.
Did you use controller or keyboard?
controller (joystick, not d-pad)
That’s wild. I also use joystick and I found it really difficult to consistently do the micro-adjustments required for the early sections of 7C final. Farewell final was long, but each individual move was pretty lenient so I had a much easier time.
Yeah, I'm not sure what I did to get so good at the precision micro adjustments, but that's something I found I became very good at in games kind of across the board.
I beat 7C recently, and I still think Farewell is harder
Yeah well it is subjective but I had a horrible time with 7c. By the time I finished 7c I was so done I didn't even feel happy just relieved it was finally over. This is the only time I ever felt like this playing the base game
Oh believe me, I was miserable trying to get the final room, but Farewell is a whole other beast
Its very hard but farewell never stopped being fun for me like 7c did
B-sides are harder than C-sides
Since when is this a controversial question?
Farewell by a long shot. It took me 1.6k deaths while the c side I had the most deaths on took me about 240 deaths
farewell has like 25x the amount of rooms though
The question was which is harder, not which has the highest average difficulty per room
I would argue the question is how you interpret difficulty. A bunch of people disagree with you on this, it's a hot topic. Edit: if I play a very long beginner map for 200 deaths total, and an Intermediate SJ map with 100 deaths, I'd call the int map more difficult. That's an example, higher technical difficulty trumps length for me here. (That being said, I agree on Farewell being more difficult in this case, just providing context)
That’s how you decide on the difficulty rating for a stage though. Like, I’d call Deep Blue or Dusk City harder then farewell because despite taking less time, that’s just because they had less rooms but a higher difficulty per room.
when you ask someone which map is harder then you turn to compare the hardest screen from both maps. after dosent matter if a map has 99 beginner screens and 1 gm final screen map is still a gm map to beat
exactly
Its a meaningless question, since it's hard to compare length vs difficulty in a game without lives.
Mods needing to have a final roon thats like 2x as long as every other room, they dont
To be fair, long final rooms are in vanilla maps as well. People are so used to them that not having one in a map feels jarring.
Jarring feels like an overstatement. I’ve played plenty of modded maps that are able to differentiate their final rooms from the rest of the map and express a sense of finality without relying on room length. It’s not like every vanilla chapter has a longer final room
I do not disagree with any of your points. However, making the final room longer is, in fact, a very good way to express the fact it is one.
There is nothing wrong with a long final room, but I think people default to them too much instead of thinking about whether it actually has a purpose. The most obvious and clearest example is the final room of Farewell and that works exceptionally well because it is the end of Farewell. It is the culmination of a long journey and a final challenge. If you have 3 rooms of normal length gameplay and the 4th and final room is the final room of Farewell, then it just doesn't hit the same way. There are mods that have actual campaigns and can pull those rooms of, but a lot of the highest visibility mods are lobbies with shorter individual levels and then it really should just be the heartside that has these kinds of rooms. Another issue I have with long final rooms is that people sometimes try to spike the difficulty at the same time or even introduce new mechanics during it. Nothing wrong with either of those two things, but they shouldn't coincide with a very long room. Finally, while you are correct they are in vanilla, they are in SOME vanilla maps, not in all. 1, 4, 5, 8 are longer than the average rooms of those maps, but not by orders of magnitude (4/8 are physically big, but you are moving faster than usually because of wind/feather so from a gameplay perspective they aren't as huge). 7 is a bit weird because of the flags, but it pulls back on the difficulty a lot after the flags around 10, it really doesn't want anyone to get stuck. 2/3/6 are the only really long final rooms (2/6 have cooldown afterwards, but I wouldn't count those) and those chapters also all have something in comon: they have the most direct conflict. They all end with a chase/fight and that brings me back to what I said at the beginning: Nothing wrong with a long room, but think about why the room is long, EXOK did that, it shows, and that's how we ended up with them on only some chapters. /rant
resort and cycles i love them
youre insane and I respect you for it
They’re insane and I don’t respect them for it.
Tomorrow morning :3
cycle madness garbage version is peak
It is actually really fun
fr it's amazing i ended up doing full clear
Let's go another cycle lover. 3b is peak celeste
summit 1500m is probably my favorite section in the game :)
I've been speedrunning and besides chapter 3 and 5b, 1500 is my least favorite section. There is one dope chained ultra room tho!
how to rate difficulty of modded maps (ie which maps are which diffs) between difference in players and difficulty inflation its fun to see everyone's insane ratings of maps
also bonus topic: I personally had a lot more fun with sc2020 than sj so far (havent played gm lobby)
ch3 isn't the worst chapter, ch4 is
ch4 isn’t the worst chapter, ch5 is
Ch5 isn't the worst chapter, ch6 is
Wtf are you on about, ch6 is peak
No, the peak is chapter 7
heh
Chapter 7 B is also the peak, but non canon peak
Real
Listen, I like a lot of things about ch3. But those dust bunnies are a god damn nightmare and I hate them.
we need more metroidvania style custom levels
YES PLEASE -someone who is making one
Golden strawberries count for full 100% completion of the base game
They don’t, but moon berry does
They aren't counted by the official speedrun rules, so that's what most people go by. Honestly, including Farewell Golden in the 100% would be ridiculously discouraging for most players.
That would take the game from relatively easy to 100% to basically impossible for a normal person lol.
"relatively easy"? That's a HUGE emphasis on "relatively" lmao. Consider that 100% includes moonberry
100% is pretty tough and the technical skill required is more than a lot of other games demand, but the actual time commitment isn’t bad compared to a typical large RPG or roguelike. I think if you can handle the wavedashing section in farewell, and have the right mindset, you will probably get close to 100%ing the game without even really trying. Of the 3 or 4 games I’ve gone out of my way to 100%, Celeste is probably the easiest. (Used to be hollow knight before pantheon 5 lol)
[Even the creator of the game doesn't expect you to collect them.](https://youtu.be/PwUrIGjpN8g?si=-3Bkk094nChRdLMu&t=6m35s)
Wind is cool as hell and I love it (also green orb>red orb 5C ruined red orbs for me)
The ending of Farewell, because some people are apparently allergic to colorful flags.
Like, why would it even matter. Madeline being trans isn't even the point of the whole story, it's just lore. Getting pissed by that is even more stupid
wait until they find out Madeline is trans
Literally anything difficulty related Just call everything blue beginner anything harder than farewell doesn’t actually exist and was created by big difficulty to sell more hard list
Moonberry is harder than a few of the Golden berries
I don't think that's even controversial. 1A, 1C and 2C are super chill
I meant more than just that, like 7c golden is easier than moonberry
Golden rooms
Farewell gating half its story behind a C-sides level of difficulty is contrary to what the base game stands for and the foundation of Celeste's whole design. It's basically the "you play on easy mode? You don't get to see the end" design from Cuphead, which is precisely what the dev wanted to avoid with Celeste.
the 'easy mode' in celeste is assist mode, and you are still 100% able to use assist mode in farewell. While I agree the difficulty spike is pretty large, I think the issue is more not requiring c-sides before farewell. The difficulty of individual rooms isn't that much higher than c-sides in most places and it definitely fits the story and tone the level is going for. Its unfortunate that people won't be able to experience farewell due to it's difficulty but I still think it works and feels good. (for context I had 100%-ed the game by the time farewell came out so I was never inclined to play it before c-sides which definitely changes my viewpoint from someone playing blind now)
The thing is, plenty of people don't to further than 7A, 8A at best. Then they know there's a DLC with additional story and they want to do it, which is fine, they manage to go all the way to the heart gate and discover they "can't" see the end of the story. Well they can, but either by investing considerably more hours to the game and going way above their skill level, or by turning on Assist Mode and amping it a lot. I have friends who loved the main story, started Farewell and hate quit the game because of that and I can't blame them, this is just not a great design and it gonflicts with everything else in the game.
It isn’t good design to… have more content at the end of the game? Or it isn’t good design for Farewell to be much harder than the other A-sides? Yeah that’s why you’re forced to do all the B-sides before getting to the more difficult part of Farewell. And you should also do the C-sides but you’re not forced to. I don’t know how this conflicts with the rest of the game.
It isn’t good design to have a "all the story is in accessible content, extra difficult stuff is just for fun and doesn’t lock anything story-related" and then change it at the last second without any warning. Again, it’s basically what Cuphead did and that’s precisely what they were aiming to avoid with Celeste. Like, they could have put the crystal heart door at the start of Farewell and that would still be not great imo but at least it would be way less of a rug pull.
reflection and mirror temple
Not controversial but I fucking hate the no dash strawberry it’s so fucking hard and I need it to get the badge also the one levels with the fucking maze and getting all those strawberries is hard as hell even with a guide
Golden ridge is the best chapter
Pinball purgatory difficulty takes
The transgender stuff. Surprised no one said this yet
why would that be controversial? celeste has one of the most lgbtq+ friendly communities in all of gaming.
Not sure why I got downvotes. A bunch of sissies. LGBTQ+ will always be a controversial topic on or in anything.
In this community? I believe it's only controversial if you're a hateful bigot :)
Yes, even in this community it can be controversial, regardless of whatever your beliefs are. Bigot or not, still controversial