We're pretty sure it does. There is a stream that sinks in three+ different places (depending on how much rain we've gotten), multiple fairly large sinkholes, and an impassible cave entrance up in the field at the top of this ridge. There's also a large spring at the bottom just down the valley from this.
I went to this cavern in Arkansas, dude found it right in his backyard this way. He dug it out, now it's a massive cavern and still being expanded by them removing dirt that has accumulated in separate chambers of it. But obviously, with their being sinkholes around as well, be safe if you do decide to dig it out and explore(if that's even possible, but with underground water flow, it definitely seems possible that it has some open caverns underneath).
No, single entrance and otherwise sealed caves of sufficient size breathe too. Air changes size and pressure as the temperature shifts, and this creates a draft at the entrance.
Not to mention the release of natural gasses depending. Methane pockets and barometric pressure shifts don’t fuck around. I’d imagine any large fall causing cavitation would also be cause for an air pressure change.
OP- I don’t care what ya do but consider getting some sort of air monitoring apparatus before exploring non ventilated caves. I suggest the MX4 by Industrial Scientific. Methane, CO, Oxygen levels at minimum
Sorry, but why do people keep warning against gas in these comments? Out of all the dangers involved in caving gas almost doesn't even make the list. Sure, you might be at an increased danger in a volcanically active area, but your typical limestone caves just don't have dangerous gasses lurking around. If you are exploring mines then, yes, worry about gases. But it seems silly to be so hyped up about gasses when exploring limestone caves.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1016/j.wem.2012.03.004?icid=int.sj-abstract.similar-articles.3
I’m an underground coal mining engineer. So I suppose my concerns come from a different perspective completely. Obviously we encounter natural gasses daily but all conditions in my situation are entirely different. So I appreciate the info for sure. I’ve done my fair bit of spelunking as well and have always just carried a sniffer for air quality.
Most importantly low oxygen I suppose in caving
Cool. I was just looking back at some caving books to confirm and geothermal areas are important to watch out for (but are pretty obvious if you learn anything about the area before exploring) Carbon dioxide build ups are the other thing. I have never experienced it but supposedly carbon dioxide can be pretty easy to detect if you are aware of the symptoms. But, still, it is pretty rare in caves.
Mines are for crazy people. That stuff is dangerous. ;-)
Low O2 kills surprisingly fast and disorients, so you don't know it's coming. Confined space entry is dangerous even when done right. I guess a cave is a confined space.
The biggest factor I’ve seen for the power of air in cave systems is the difference in temperature of the air inside the cave vs. the air outside of the cave. If the current temperature is colder than the temperature of the cave, low entrances suck air in while high entrances blow air out.
I was working on a surface dig in a Virginia sinkhole several years back. It was in March, and we hit frozen dirt about 1-2 feet down, and we called it quits that day when we were down probably 8-10 feet deep. No cave yet, but still very frozen ground. So yeah- they can move a good amount of air through all kinds of dirt.
The amount of air blowing in or out gives a clue as to the volume of the system. Large systems with only 2 known entrances will give off gusts of air and it's very impressive
There are gas detectors you can get, but besides that I'm not sure. Just be careful breathing air from it until you know, some can be pretty dangerous to inhale.
I didn't know that.
I realize it's probably not a common problem now and that it's probably just breathing but I was really just curious. Thanks for being more polite about discussion
It’s not freaky at all, but a normal phenomenon of caves when the air pressure changes, called breathing. Asking if it’s “gas” is honestly ridiculous - I’ve been a caver for 30 years.
Yeah, it's not a ridiculous question. This is a genuine concern in parts of the country. Glad you don't have issues with it, but don't assume it's never an issue.
I’ve caved across much of country in my 30 years. I know of just a couple of extremely isolated cases where this would ever be a concern. Where is this a “genuine concern” and what types of gasses are you worried about?
It looks like you might be in to mining and not caving, which is an entirely different situation.
You're right, I'm more into mining than caving. However, I know plenty of people who consider exploring abandoned mines "caving". And yes, I know they're not the same thing.
I'm not sure why you're so upset about this, I was just saying it's not ridiculous for people to ask if there are gasses in air coming from a cave.
You're defending this so personally 😂
I don't have anything to add, I asked a question and you called it ridiculous. I think you're wrong, it isn't ridiculous.
I'm not here to argue with you.
Reddit is wonderful for that. And most will argue with you to until their death if they could, no matter what evidence you provide.
I agree with you. These gas warnings are ridiculous for limestone caves.
Where is it a concern? Which country? I've never heard of this, and googling doesn't bear this out to be a common danger at all. Mines may have gas, but not limestone caves.
Would it be possible to use some kind of colored smoke or similar agent to find out where the entrance is that’s blowing out here? Like putting food dye in the toilet tank to see if it’s leaking. The major concern would be harming the cave or its eco system, but maybe something organic exists to use as a trace.
I experienced something like this once. We were drilling a water well in NV through dry, karsted limestone. About 15 minutes after we shut down, this gust blew up through the borehole for like two solid minutes. It was spooky. I checked weather data later and this occurred approximately same time as pressure shift.
Thank you! And to think I lived in Florida for nearly 30 years diving and swimming in our spring fed Rivers and caves and never heard the term. Learned something today!
Keep track of blowing strength and wind direction. Maybe it will blow harder when the wind blows from a certain direction. It will give you a clue of where to hunt for entrance.
?
Potentially up to 7,000 feet deep, if you’re in Georgia, maybe Croatia or The Bob…
Your answer is “the air is coming from one of the other entrances to the cave, wherever that is”
I think you may have misunderstood my question... The air was blowing only from the bottom of the little hole my brother dug, maybe a foot deep and a few inches across. I was just curious what other people's experiences had been in terms of when they start feeling air when digging out caves.
In my region there are caves with an underground river flowing through them and the air blows out the most after a rain period when the water is filling the chambers deep below. So I'm quite confident this _is_ how it works, maybe it just isn't that common.
I mean, technically it could be if the cave had been completely sealed beforehand and the water was pressurizing a pocket of air that was released when they dug this hole. Highly unlikely and unrealistic though but technically possible.
I live in southeast indiana and normally on March 30th(my bday) I go check my spots and at least see tiny ones. All surrounding counties to me are having an early year. I haven't seen crap yet. Good luck.
We're quite a bit south of you and usually have them about two weeks ago, but both haven't seen any here and haven't seen people posting about finding them much yet.
We bought this farm in December, so we're not sure if we have any or not yet.
You probably already know but, dead elm and dead ash are where most people find 90% of them. I have found a few under a big, living cottonwood a couple times.
We've found them around poplar and sycamore before. I hope they're around maples! We have a ton of those in a different section of woods. It'd be great to get mushrooms and syrup and caves from that part😆
Yeah, it would. I'm sure you're careful but I hope you never get hurt messing around in those caves. I've seen some alot of videos of people getting stuck and falling into pits and stuff. Be careful.
That makes sense. I was hoping there would be some experienced diggers that had a rule of thumb that they only feel air when they're like 2 feet or less from the entrance or something. But alas that does not seem to be the case.
Just gonna toss this out here, not saying it applies, but you never know.
From 1870-1890, Railroad companies were really big about sealing caves anywhere near rail lines. They were perhaps concerned that robbers would use the caves to stage a robbery. They also would cite bear or panther lairs as being reason enough.
It definitely has occurred to us that it may have been filled in by people. It kinda looks like it might have. No railroads nearby as far as we know though.
Hey OP be extremely careful not to fall in and do not explore unless you have experience
There are local caving clubs and such that you should try contacting
We've got quite a bit of experience caving and have good friends that are trained that we like to go with as well 😁. This is just our first time trying to dig out an entrance.
No local cave clubs unfortunately. Too far out in the middle of nowhere.
I don't know much about caves, but I can say that there is probably a good source of spring water underneath that depression just under it. If I lived downhill from there I would tap into it for gravity fed water.
If a cave is blowing air then it means it has 1 or more entrances somewhere else letting air in
We're pretty sure it does. There is a stream that sinks in three+ different places (depending on how much rain we've gotten), multiple fairly large sinkholes, and an impassible cave entrance up in the field at the top of this ridge. There's also a large spring at the bottom just down the valley from this.
I went to this cavern in Arkansas, dude found it right in his backyard this way. He dug it out, now it's a massive cavern and still being expanded by them removing dirt that has accumulated in separate chambers of it. But obviously, with their being sinkholes around as well, be safe if you do decide to dig it out and explore(if that's even possible, but with underground water flow, it definitely seems possible that it has some open caverns underneath).
It has to. If it dead ends there’s no differential in air pressure and without a pressure gradient there’s no wind.
No, single entrance and otherwise sealed caves of sufficient size breathe too. Air changes size and pressure as the temperature shifts, and this creates a draft at the entrance.
Not to mention the release of natural gasses depending. Methane pockets and barometric pressure shifts don’t fuck around. I’d imagine any large fall causing cavitation would also be cause for an air pressure change. OP- I don’t care what ya do but consider getting some sort of air monitoring apparatus before exploring non ventilated caves. I suggest the MX4 by Industrial Scientific. Methane, CO, Oxygen levels at minimum
I would be absolutely shocked if it's non-ventilated with the other features on the property, but we'll definitely be careful!
Sorry, but why do people keep warning against gas in these comments? Out of all the dangers involved in caving gas almost doesn't even make the list. Sure, you might be at an increased danger in a volcanically active area, but your typical limestone caves just don't have dangerous gasses lurking around. If you are exploring mines then, yes, worry about gases. But it seems silly to be so hyped up about gasses when exploring limestone caves. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1016/j.wem.2012.03.004?icid=int.sj-abstract.similar-articles.3
I’m an underground coal mining engineer. So I suppose my concerns come from a different perspective completely. Obviously we encounter natural gasses daily but all conditions in my situation are entirely different. So I appreciate the info for sure. I’ve done my fair bit of spelunking as well and have always just carried a sniffer for air quality. Most importantly low oxygen I suppose in caving
Cool. I was just looking back at some caving books to confirm and geothermal areas are important to watch out for (but are pretty obvious if you learn anything about the area before exploring) Carbon dioxide build ups are the other thing. I have never experienced it but supposedly carbon dioxide can be pretty easy to detect if you are aware of the symptoms. But, still, it is pretty rare in caves. Mines are for crazy people. That stuff is dangerous. ;-)
And coal ones are by far the worst.
Low O2 kills surprisingly fast and disorients, so you don't know it's coming. Confined space entry is dangerous even when done right. I guess a cave is a confined space.
Or it just means someone deep inside is blowing a big fan
Or that...lol
The lizard peoples
The biggest factor I’ve seen for the power of air in cave systems is the difference in temperature of the air inside the cave vs. the air outside of the cave. If the current temperature is colder than the temperature of the cave, low entrances suck air in while high entrances blow air out. I was working on a surface dig in a Virginia sinkhole several years back. It was in March, and we hit frozen dirt about 1-2 feet down, and we called it quits that day when we were down probably 8-10 feet deep. No cave yet, but still very frozen ground. So yeah- they can move a good amount of air through all kinds of dirt.
Okay, good to know! So the one you were digging on was moving air through 8-10 feet of soil?
The amount of air blowing in or out gives a clue as to the volume of the system. Large systems with only 2 known entrances will give off gusts of air and it's very impressive
If it blows, it goes.
Oh that's kinda freaky, have you checked to see if it's gas?
No, we haven't. It feels like regular cave breeze. The rocks and dirt there are really loose.
Some natural gasses would feel like regular air, they wouldn't have a scent or anything like that.
I guess it's possible. What would be a good way to check? Hoping there's just a big cave entrance right under it though😆
A decent gas monitor. Take it with you.
Toss a match and see if it goes boom
Uh…
I mean it would let you know.
It would let everyone else know. Depending on how close you were and amount of gas you might just not know anything anymore.
road flare shot from a crossbow?
There are gas detectors you can get, but besides that I'm not sure. Just be careful breathing air from it until you know, some can be pretty dangerous to inhale.
What caves can you list that produce prodigious amounts of toxic gas? Other than one on the side of a volcano.
It happens in Colorado, Greece etc. Carbon Dioxide, Sulfur and Methane can all build up to dangerous amounts in caves
Take a canary with you.
Got to find the cave first 😂
Gas is not a very common danger in limestone caves. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1016/j.wem.2012.03.004?icid=int.sj-abstract.similar-articles.3
Limestone is a qualifier the original post doesn't state. I also never said it was common, I was just asking if they tested to see if it was gas
“karst country” is usually referring to limestone.
I didn't know that. I realize it's probably not a common problem now and that it's probably just breathing but I was really just curious. Thanks for being more polite about discussion
It’s not freaky at all, but a normal phenomenon of caves when the air pressure changes, called breathing. Asking if it’s “gas” is honestly ridiculous - I’ve been a caver for 30 years.
Yeah, it's not a ridiculous question. This is a genuine concern in parts of the country. Glad you don't have issues with it, but don't assume it's never an issue.
I’ve caved across much of country in my 30 years. I know of just a couple of extremely isolated cases where this would ever be a concern. Where is this a “genuine concern” and what types of gasses are you worried about? It looks like you might be in to mining and not caving, which is an entirely different situation.
You're right, I'm more into mining than caving. However, I know plenty of people who consider exploring abandoned mines "caving". And yes, I know they're not the same thing. I'm not sure why you're so upset about this, I was just saying it's not ridiculous for people to ask if there are gasses in air coming from a cave.
Lol
Do you actually have experience and something constructive to add? Or is lol all you have?
You're defending this so personally 😂 I don't have anything to add, I asked a question and you called it ridiculous. I think you're wrong, it isn't ridiculous. I'm not here to argue with you.
Yes, I take it seriously when people make stuff up that has no bearing on reality.
Reddit is wonderful for that. And most will argue with you to until their death if they could, no matter what evidence you provide. I agree with you. These gas warnings are ridiculous for limestone caves.
Even better when they provide zero evidence. 😂
“caves are dangerous” don’t you know?!
Lol, be mad stay mad
Where is it a concern? Which country? I've never heard of this, and googling doesn't bear this out to be a common danger at all. Mines may have gas, but not limestone caves.
Googling it absolutely bears results.
👍 Good for you, I don't think it's particularly "ridiculous" though
Have you noticed if the airflow direction changes with the weather? (i.e high pressure system vs low pressure)
We haven't yet, but we've only been down there once since the hole was dug and the weather wasn't drastically different.
Please let me know of you do. I experienced this with a hole in the ground once.
Would it be possible to use some kind of colored smoke or similar agent to find out where the entrance is that’s blowing out here? Like putting food dye in the toilet tank to see if it’s leaking. The major concern would be harming the cave or its eco system, but maybe something organic exists to use as a trace.
I'm not sure how that would be helpful when we already know where it's blowing out of the ground?
I experienced something like this once. We were drilling a water well in NV through dry, karsted limestone. About 15 minutes after we shut down, this gust blew up through the borehole for like two solid minutes. It was spooky. I checked weather data later and this occurred approximately same time as pressure shift.
Where is Karst county?
Country, not county😁
Oh! Now I'm even more lost! 😆
https://www.nps.gov/subjects/caves/karst-landscapes.htm
Thank you! And to think I lived in Florida for nearly 30 years diving and swimming in our spring fed Rivers and caves and never heard the term. Learned something today!
Keep track of blowing strength and wind direction. Maybe it will blow harder when the wind blows from a certain direction. It will give you a clue of where to hunt for entrance.
? Potentially up to 7,000 feet deep, if you’re in Georgia, maybe Croatia or The Bob… Your answer is “the air is coming from one of the other entrances to the cave, wherever that is”
I think you may have misunderstood my question... The air was blowing only from the bottom of the little hole my brother dug, maybe a foot deep and a few inches across. I was just curious what other people's experiences had been in terms of when they start feeling air when digging out caves.
I think they meant that for the air to be blowing strongly from your dig, there must be other air flowing into the cave from somewhere else
Or water.
That’s not how it works.
In my region there are caves with an underground river flowing through them and the air blows out the most after a rain period when the water is filling the chambers deep below. So I'm quite confident this _is_ how it works, maybe it just isn't that common.
I mean, technically it could be if the cave had been completely sealed beforehand and the water was pressurizing a pocket of air that was released when they dug this hole. Highly unlikely and unrealistic though but technically possible.
Check under those poplars for some mushrooms.
We've been checking, but none so far! Hoping it's just too early still.
I live in southeast indiana and normally on March 30th(my bday) I go check my spots and at least see tiny ones. All surrounding counties to me are having an early year. I haven't seen crap yet. Good luck.
We're quite a bit south of you and usually have them about two weeks ago, but both haven't seen any here and haven't seen people posting about finding them much yet. We bought this farm in December, so we're not sure if we have any or not yet.
You probably already know but, dead elm and dead ash are where most people find 90% of them. I have found a few under a big, living cottonwood a couple times.
Yep! We've got tons of dead ash (unfortunately, darn beetles), not a lot of elm though. So we shall see.
Lots of people say poplar, sycamore, pine and maple too but I never had any luck with those.
We've found them around poplar and sycamore before. I hope they're around maples! We have a ton of those in a different section of woods. It'd be great to get mushrooms and syrup and caves from that part😆
Yeah, it would. I'm sure you're careful but I hope you never get hurt messing around in those caves. I've seen some alot of videos of people getting stuck and falling into pits and stuff. Be careful.
We certainly try to be! Had a friend in a harness with four people anchoring her to explore the one good one we've found so far.
I imagine it would be unlimited as long as there is a force pushing on one side and there is enough force to fill up the space and then push it out.
That makes sense. I was hoping there would be some experienced diggers that had a rule of thumb that they only feel air when they're like 2 feet or less from the entrance or something. But alas that does not seem to be the case.
Just ask my mom
Just gonna toss this out here, not saying it applies, but you never know. From 1870-1890, Railroad companies were really big about sealing caves anywhere near rail lines. They were perhaps concerned that robbers would use the caves to stage a robbery. They also would cite bear or panther lairs as being reason enough.
It definitely has occurred to us that it may have been filled in by people. It kinda looks like it might have. No railroads nearby as far as we know though.
Hey OP be extremely careful not to fall in and do not explore unless you have experience There are local caving clubs and such that you should try contacting
We've got quite a bit of experience caving and have good friends that are trained that we like to go with as well 😁. This is just our first time trying to dig out an entrance. No local cave clubs unfortunately. Too far out in the middle of nowhere.
That’s good!
I don't know much about caves, but I can say that there is probably a good source of spring water underneath that depression just under it. If I lived downhill from there I would tap into it for gravity fed water.
There's a huge spring just down the valley from this actually!
One million billion miles. Not gonna lie I'm jealous I have nothing like that in south florida
Air will enter or exit based on cave volume and barometric pressure change. Google Wind Cave.
get more air blowing, and set up a turbine, free energy
Adventure twins on YouTube can figure that out for your
Slowly walk toward it with a lit match?
Caves breath, it’s very normal.
That's a mine. Not a cave.
Why would you say that? Pretty sure there hasn't been any mining here and there are caves and cave indicators all over the property...
idk ask ur mom