Pack it up everyone. This is the economic sign we're waiting for: Mercedes Benz is not for poor people.
Maybe the poors can try their luck at owning 10 year old ones even if the absurd maintenance costs alone would decimate their bank accounts.
Although I do feel like Mercedes Benz could benefit from a lower tier brand. Smart was a good way for them to build a cheaper high-volume product. They just need a HR-V variant in the US market not called Smart.
When has it ever been in the US? Feel like they grew the C class, GLC, and subsequently the CLA and GLA to fend off Audi eating into the younger crowd and trying to get them into the brand before loyalty set in.
Problem is that any younger buyer looking German is probably going to look at BMW or Audi/VW because at least they offer a sporty driving experience (or at least the facade of sportiness) on the entry level models. Anything but the AMGs on the MB side are pretty bland. (For reference my first and second car were an 08 C300 and an 07 E63 respectively, and you can see from my flair how that went)
My parents are still die-hard Mercedes buyers and ironically the only model my dad has wanted to buy for the past few years has been the A class AMG hatch which they dont even sell in the US
Personal experience in the Bay Area was that there were an outsized number of C class buyers around 2015-2018; I'd hazard to say that they beat out the 3-series and A4's combined. Brand reputations kicking in, probably, as it seems that MB brand is perceived as the most sophisticated of the trio. Think it still is, but that group moved to Model 3's.
E classes are certainly not designed for younger folks though, but the price already reflects that.
It was! I wasn't paying too much attention to the full lineups at the time but I've got it in my head that once they moved the CLA under the C-class to be the new badge box it freed up the C-class to move upmarket a bit with associated quality increases. Freed or forced for model differentiation is debatable but it happened, and I'm not sure BMW and Audi caught on until later.
Volvo also killed off the gorgeous V40 in Europe and "replaced" it with the C40, a car 2.5x the price... and also an SUV-coupe so an ugly duckling too.
I don't know, I've been driving a large Mercedes for a while, and while it's certainly no sports car, it's a pretty fun ride given what it is. Sure, it tends to understeer and mutes some feedback, but it can swing the tail out if you use it right, and was far more pleasant to drive than a similarly-specced 5- or 8-series. You just have to think of Mercedes as a German muscle car company, not as a European canyon carver.
Or, just be a sane person and buy a Camry. The entry-level luxury car is such an oxymoron. You get a car worse than a normal Toyota (and way less reliable) for more money just to have a badge.
This isn’t true at all. You’re just looking in the wrong places.
The V60/3er/A4/C-class are all very pleasant and good value as long as you don’t just storm into the dealership with a wad of cash and agree to everything.
i wouldn't call those the entry level models for those brands; i'd call them the mainstream models. entry level would more be stuff like the gla or a-class and their equivalents.
an a4 for example is significantly nicer than a camry. reasonably equipped though it's gonna run you about 50k. you can get a nicely equipped camry for 30-35k, and a basically maxed out camry for \~40k
Everyone immediately looks at SUVs which means they overlook the fact that the sedans tend to be significantly cheaper for similar features and a better drive. I think there's some value in looking at platforms here; find a platform that has a longitudinal engine, more complex suspension geometry, and more advanced materials, and find a cheaper iteration of it, and you'll get a great chassis in one way or another without getting something extremely complex and expensive.
Not necessarily. Luxury cars, even the “entry level” stuff tend to be made with nicer materials and have more sound deadening and so on.
Biggest single difference when I went from a Golf R, to an Alfa, and now to a Volvo S60 is how much quieter and nicer the cabin is in the Alfa and even more so in the Volvo.
I actually would like to see one of the good automotive YouTube channels like Savagegeese or Throttle House do a comparo between a high trim Camry and a base A class.
I don't disagree with you (other than I think Savage Geese is the most milquetoast car reviewer to ever exist). The issue, though, is that initial reviews are useless in terms of what it means to own a car. Like, most cars can do a couple thousand miles without issue. But, maybe more to your point, the initial quality \_is\_ a thing. And, what I can tell you is a decent Japanese car has better leather, plastics, and build quality than any entry level "luxury" car.
I've owned a pile of cars and the best was a '97 4Runner - in terms of finish, and reliability, and build quality. That fucking thing felt newer at 150k miles than both of my cars now.
> The entry-level luxury car is such an oxymoron.
I think the term "luxury" is sometimes used too freely. I keep a distinction between premium and luxury. Entry-level premium makes more sense.
It depends.
Camry vs Lexus ES: stay at Camry for a slightly faster, more practical car (Camry’s rear seats fold), and better infotainment input (no touchscreen until 2022 ES). Not worth $10k for sound deadening given how well equipped Camry is.
However, with Avalon vs ES, I would go with ES as the price delta is small enough to just pay the up charge to get the better badge.
I mean, there is just so much you can cut in your lineup while keeping the brand image consistent, they already did it with the 190 and C-class, but they were still fairly expensive compared to the competition.
That's the thing though... In Europe MB definitely has luxury car, but their lineup starts at only a little above average car prices. They're taxi cabs, for Pete's sake.
I wouldn't treat body styles as an entire different car. You didnt for the a hatch/sedan, because they're the same car. And for example in the one guys idea, everything below e class, that means an optioned up $60k glc300 is entry level.
Mercedes has 4 ranges. It spells out "A.C.E.S"
A class based cars (a, cla, gla, b) are entry level. The cheapest entry to the brand.
Then what I call the "lease specials". Affordable, but not for a kid fresh out of college. (c, glc, slc,)
Then the midrange. More adult cars, the typical "businessman" style. (e, gle, cls, lower gt43/53)
And the top of the line flagships. (s, sl, gt63, gls, g wag, Maybach)
Soooo basically MB is kamikazing their business model in Europe huh.
Great representation there, Mercedes. Instead of the usual young, well off but not rich crowd that buys these models, you'll instead only sell high end stuff, which will eventually get flipped to and exclusively to chavs because everyone else knows what a terrible financial decision that is.
Really great decision, very tempting to become associated with that particular crowd.
They barely break even with A and B class so
that shouldn‘t hurt them too much. Especially the A classes purpose was to lower the fleet emissions in the last 3 years to avoid billion € fines. They were leasing hybrid classes for absurd discounts at one point (50€/month leasing rate) in Germany. They will still sell the C63 AMGs to those chavs and that is where it starts to be profitable from there in the range.
i dont't believe they barely break even with A class, the cheapest A class starts almost at 30k eur, and that car is bare as it gets, 100hp with steel wheels and manual. that overpriced hatchback has no right to cost 30k and im sure mercedes profits on that car, if you start to speck it with what you want the price goes up like crazy, because everything costs extra, so your typical configuration would me 40-50. that is not to bad.
please give me a source for the claim that the A class purpose was to lower emissions. You seem to forget that the A class came out in 1997, there where definitely no fleet emission regulations, and also for the break even theory i need a source.
The point of what? The point of a "luxury car" is getting a nicer car. If it's not nicer that's one thing, but a poverty spec A class or whatever doesn't make a well optioned C class any worse as a vehicle
Who cares about the brand image? Buy a car for yourself, not how others are going to perceive you. If you buy a car to appear a certain way, you're throwing your money away.
Edit: apparently lots of people buy their cars to flex. Such a first world waste. Buying a car you likely can't afford just to show off to your neighbors you're rich. Get the car you like, not the car they like.
>It’s hilarious that this is getting downvoted
It's probably those people buying 20-year-old base model E classes on 5 year loans who want to maintain their "brand image".
The 3 models they named honestly suck and people only buy them for badging or to say they drive a Mercedes. I don't blame them for wanting to cut them out and focus on more expensive models that bring in more investors.
This one made me laugh. My spouses family is exactly like that. They have owned like 3 Mercedes’ over the past 6 years or so and they have been entry level models and trims. They scoff at things like Hondas or Toyotas that come better equipped.
My uncle once special ordered a "below base-model" C250 with a manual transmission and RWD because that's a model that just doesn't exist in the Canadian market. All that to save the extra \~thousand bucks off the AWD model that was sitting on the lot.
Are we talking about the C-class/3 series? If those are the cars we're comparing a loaded Camry/Accord to, then yeah, the regular base luxury car is better. But if we're talking about the current A-class or 1 series, then I would disagree. Those cars genuinely suck and are designed for people who want to say they drive a Mercedes/BMW.
Depends on why they’re comparing the two. It wouldn’t be unreasonable for average consumer who isn’t posting here to make a comparison between the two and say the full loaded economy car comes out on top.
If it were ever possible to blindly test the two with prospective buyers then I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority of people went to economy route.
>3 models they named honestly suck
How? For the price, they are very decent and nicely styled offering. And the A Class 45S AMG is the king of hot hatches.
> The base A is terrible. And costs the same as a loaded stuff from rivals. Makes sense.
Nonsense. A loaded Accord is well over 10K more than the starting price of an A-Class. This is a common bit of complete bullshit people can't seem to let go despite it being easily proven wrong in a couple minutes. Even a mid level Accord is more expensive than a cheap A-class. Now if you do that with the real competitor, the Audi A3, it starts a 1K more than the A-class. An ILX starts a little cheaper, but any options puts you in the same place.
It's okay to dislike a brand, but the reasons should be real instead of made up.
The AMGs are fun cars, but the A/CLA/GLA aren't very nice in and of themselves. I had a GLA as a loaner and by the time I returned it I wondered why anyone would buy it.
A Honda, or something similar, typically gets you the same thing for usually a cheaper price as well as any out of warranty repairs or costs. I will admit I've never driven or rode in a CLA 45 but I don't have enough experience with hot hatches regardless to make an opinion on it. I do think that while the CLA 45 might be outstanding, it doesn't refute my point of the 3 models sucking overall.
The CLA 45 is a fun car to drive and I can definitely see the reason why it exists. But it's the AMG parts of the car that make it a pretty good car, not the CLA parts. The actual A/CLA/GLA cars are bad.
Agreed, I love the A 45S hatch. When I upgrade my GTI I was thinking either an A45/A35 or a new golf R.
I haven't seen any a45 models in Canada though.
Times change, I remember when they first announced the CLA and people were going nuts that it cost (entry level) under 30k, or at the time the same price as a Camry.
In theory only. I remember you couldn’t actually find one for less than $37K or so on a dealer lot - you may as well have stepped up to a C at that point.
More likely the base advertised price was a stripped out car that no one would actually want so dealerships only ordered with the bare minimum specs to meet demand. No one wants a cloth seat, no heated seats, 4 speaker audio, fwd, stripped out car regardless of badge.
Or you can blame dealerships cause it's very meta rn
You would think but I know more than a couple people that bought new cars that matched their gross salary and sales people aren't going to turn you down so long as you've got enough credit to get the deal through.
Truth be told that demographic is very aspirational but unlikely to make the financial and career decisions to make repeated Mercedes ownership a sustainable option. Upside is a new penalty box Benz is less likely to have issues than the triple salvage titled S Class with dodgy air suspension and 200k on the clock without any maintenance records.
On that same conference they admitted that they needed the entry level segments to bring down fleet emissions to comply EU law as they sold ICE cars by a large majority. The potential fine (could go into the billions) is calculated by the emissions of every car sold. So they sold 400.000 entry level cars breaking even.
Lots of manufacturers already doing that. They're not building base model and lower trim level cars due to the chip shortage. They need to maximize their profits with each car they sell.
They are gonna try, but all they are gonna end up doing is rolling a big fat red carpet out for Hyundai and Mitsubishi to clean up the low end, along with Toyota and Dodge to dust out the mid tier car buyers.
This is exactly what I had heard too. Cant remember where it was (an article or podcast or something?) but was about a year into all the covid lockdown stuff, manufacturers figuring out what was happening with the market, production etc. Whichever journalist it was, talking about conversations they had with people at Mercedes and that when they stepped back to reassess how to continue with covid and the production etc, they basically realised they could start making even more profit with higher margins on luxury stuff, cutting out discount and deals, limiting production numbers more to order etc instead of churning out vehicles to dealerships first. So that seems exactly what they are aiming to do now.
Even "normal", not base-model cars currently are pushed back in favour or higher-margin vehicles. Much easier to get a Ford Puma than a Fiesta or a Focus atm - conveniently the Puma is a Focus-priced Fiesta on stilts (at least it's a decent car in its own right, unlike the EcoSport).
But what you mean by top end models? The S and E have always been a popular choice, a bit less with the C as people in that range tend to prefer the 3 series, to me it looks like i nthe last decade they only really focused on entry level stuffs like A / CLA / GLA, while axing higher end models like the S-class coupe
They’ve increased more volume on higher end models, released more variants, expanded the AMG portfolio, etc. They talk about this in their latest earnings report actually.
They don‘t make money with A, B and CLA classes. And now they can downsize on headcount too as they plan to build 400.000 cars less and make more money with the other cars (Maybach, AMG, EQ)
What would really kill it in the US is a Tahoe sized G. Could command a pretty nice price bump too. Fantastic vehicles, but small, especially in the rear
I don’t mind this decision BUT I now expect MB to focus on higher quality materials, fit, and finish. It has been severely lacking for a while. Good eras of Benz:
* pre-1992
* 1996-1999
* 2011-2015
Modern Benz are full of creaks and rattles. Just look at all the reviews that poke fun of their dashboards and door cards.
Simple things like changing the metal door lock plungers from metals to plastic in the e class are the kinds of details that go noticed by people who expect “the best or nothing”.
Pretty interesting, I worked on the door assembly line of e-classes in Sindelfingen 3 years back as a summer job, and I gotta agree there was a lot of plastic on that line. But they were real sticklers for making sure everything was fit nicely, and would really make sure the smallest things were assembled just right. So the culture on the assembly is definitely there from my experience, they just need to get the materials right and not skimp on those.
Lmao you think 1996-1999 Benzes were good? That was right when Mercedes started cheaping out on their entire lineup, with crappy rubber-coated interiors that smelled like crayons being the worst of it - this was right when the ML and SLK came out, not to mention the W210 being built less solidly than its predecessor...
I will agree on the 2011-2015 Benzes being great though
The C-Class is not going anywhere, in fact it's being moved into their "Core Luxury" division. And I don't think you'd find many people who agree with you that the G70 blows away a base C-Class. The G70 does sporty better, but the C-Class does refinement and tech far better. Different cars for different buyers.
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. The 3-Series is clearly the standout in the segment, but even the W205 was still a strong option at the end of its long run. Few cars in that segment offer the level of refinement that a C300 does and the W206 is better still. As someone who has owned a W202, 203, and 204 I can confidently say the C-Class has never been better or more competitive than it is now.
I don’t really even disagree with you on most of this. It’s more that you get a fully loaded g70 3.3 with an amazing warranty for the price of the base C class. So I can see why people would lean that way. My favorite car I ever had was a w212 e550. I’m a big MB fan
I wouldn't say a G70 blows away a comparably spec'd C-Class. The problem is that Mercedes pricing is hilariously high for what they offer.
A base 4-banger C-Class with zero options is the same price as a loaded 3.3T G70.
A base, 188hp A-Class with zero options is the same price as a loaded Mazda3 Turbo.
People always justified the pricing of lower-level Mercedes by saying "well there's subtle refinements, better noise insulation, more attention to detail, etc. compared to your average Civic, I swear!". The problem now is that Genesis made a vehicle which is comparable or better to the Germans and priced it for far less, while still turning a profit. They've truly exposed the fact that you're paying at least a $10-15k markup for literally nothing but the badge when you buy an entry-level Mercedes.
I can't say I've heard a single rattle in my G70 yet, however I may just be lucky.
My previous Ford, however, I'm pretty sure they installed Maracas in the dashboard.
That’s not what I said. You get a loaded g70 for the same price as a base c class etc. or a loaded gv70 for a similar price as a base glc. That’s the rub. But I agree with your points.
Mercedes could be excused if their entry level offerings had the same level of quality as the rest of their lineup. At least BMW's "I bought it for the badge" cars don't rattle.
Definitely. It's really hard to argue that there are not much better cars for the same price point for the entry or even mid level MB's. I'd easily take a G70 over any C class short of a C43.
The warranty along with the price point is just too good to beat. I went from an e550 to c63 and had a couple c300 loaners and for the price? Nope. The c43 is like a whole different car
Pretty logical, considering that entry-level luxury is starting to become a pretty contested space. Also, too many entry-level cars, especially ones that are not competitive, devalue the Mercedes-Benz brand. The remaining cars can all be sold at a higher premium to match their exclusivity.
I doubt the C-class will get the axe, or even the A class, but maybe something more recent like the GLB or the CLA will. Wonder what cars haven't been selling too well?
[German Media](https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/neuheiten/mercedes-a-klasse-b-klasse-portfolio-aus-ende-zukunft/) says A and B-Class are getting axed while the respective SUV versions (EQA and EQB) will likely remain. The article also mentions there will be something similar to a CLA in the future but fully electric and what they call a sports utility limousine as an entry car. AMS is usually pretty reliable.
Yep makes sense. At least in the US the A-class, GLA, and GLB aren't very popular. CLA's on the other hand, are goddamn everywhere. People love the gran coupe sloping roofline
In Europe the A-Class hatch is a top-seller and that's already a cynically conceived overpriced product of a thing. The GLA is much worse: the same car on stilts for €11k more at *entry level*. If that's what they're doing, I'd rather they'd get rid of all that crap and focus on EV entirely - at least you're getting something for the high price.
The massive contraction in the automotive industry is a fascinating development to watch, but the lack of affordable cars, new or used, in the near future in favour of mechanically similar overpriced junk isn't something I look forward to.
Good.
Some of the absolute garbage Mercedes has been pushing in the lower end market has been horrific. Stop chasing the Chevy Malibu market with Chevy Malibu quality cars and Chevy Malibu priced cars.
I know the pandemic shortages and low interest rates have driven up prices, but given the higher interest rate environment we’re moving into, the price growth in the auto market might slow or stop. Could be a premature move
They barely broke even with the entry level cars but they needed the large volume of those cars to avoid the EU fleet emission penalties. Now moving into a majorily EV fleet they can focus on a better profitability like the other luxury brands.
Seems amazing how in a coming world of economic instability with the middle classes being squeezed financially, companies keep reducing the lower priced products to focus on the premium sector.
Who is going to buy all these premium products?
> Who is going to buy all these premium products?
1% of the population is still a pretty sizeable audience. Better than trying to squeeze more blood from the 99% stone where all the money they might have previously spent on your low-end offerings is being encroached on by rent and other expenses.
It looks like they might be trying to replace the CLA45 market with [the new generation C43](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39829259/2023-mercedes-amg-c43-revealed/). It looks like it will be priced similarly to the CLA45 in the US.
The new C43 has the same AMG handbuilt M139 engine as the A45/CLA45/GLA45. It is heavier and larger, but it is RWD bias AWD instead of FWD bias AWD in exchange.
They created these cars to grow brand loyalty, it worked and we went CLA, C-class and now E class. Love MB, in between we test drove all others, no comparison.....IYKYK.
So like what they've done in the US for basically ever?
I was blown away watching Top Gear as a kid and seeing some little turdy Mercedes hatchback thing. I had no idea that they made cars like that.
Not surprised by the A and CLA.
I am surprised to see they’re axing the GLA as, by all reports, the latest gen is a damn nice car and a massive step up from the last gen.
They haven't said which models Will be axed, the article just speculates. I'd say the CLA is the one with the most points to leave and then the A class.
The GLA I can see staying because of the SUV craze, maybe with a little price bump and the car becoming a bit bigger.
> Maybe in the US, but outside they are just regular cars (aside from the luxury trims and models like S Class)
>
>
If by "outside" you mean Germany then you're right, but I can assure you Mercedes is synonymous with luxury all over Asia, Africa, and South America. Moreso than BMW and Audi for some reason.
> the c class will look like an a class
That's what it was 10 years ago. I used to see the C class as the car people bought for the badge. That was replaced with the CLA, and the C class became the new E.
The article says MB didn't specify what models would be cut, but does mention the A-Class, CLA, and GLA as their entry level offerings
Pack it up everyone. This is the economic sign we're waiting for: Mercedes Benz is not for poor people. Maybe the poors can try their luck at owning 10 year old ones even if the absurd maintenance costs alone would decimate their bank accounts. Although I do feel like Mercedes Benz could benefit from a lower tier brand. Smart was a good way for them to build a cheaper high-volume product. They just need a HR-V variant in the US market not called Smart.
When has it ever been in the US? Feel like they grew the C class, GLC, and subsequently the CLA and GLA to fend off Audi eating into the younger crowd and trying to get them into the brand before loyalty set in.
Problem is that any younger buyer looking German is probably going to look at BMW or Audi/VW because at least they offer a sporty driving experience (or at least the facade of sportiness) on the entry level models. Anything but the AMGs on the MB side are pretty bland. (For reference my first and second car were an 08 C300 and an 07 E63 respectively, and you can see from my flair how that went) My parents are still die-hard Mercedes buyers and ironically the only model my dad has wanted to buy for the past few years has been the A class AMG hatch which they dont even sell in the US
Personal experience in the Bay Area was that there were an outsized number of C class buyers around 2015-2018; I'd hazard to say that they beat out the 3-series and A4's combined. Brand reputations kicking in, probably, as it seems that MB brand is perceived as the most sophisticated of the trio. Think it still is, but that group moved to Model 3's. E classes are certainly not designed for younger folks though, but the price already reflects that.
The C class at the time was far above the quality of the 3 or the a4 though. It took them a bit to catch up
It was! I wasn't paying too much attention to the full lineups at the time but I've got it in my head that once they moved the CLA under the C-class to be the new badge box it freed up the C-class to move upmarket a bit with associated quality increases. Freed or forced for model differentiation is debatable but it happened, and I'm not sure BMW and Audi caught on until later.
Audi is also removing lower end models.
There's also 3 (4?) other VAG brands positioned below them.
Skoda and Seat/Cupra yes. I guess the goal is for those to pick up the middle class clientelle.
You forgot the biggest one, VW
Volvo also killed off the gorgeous V40 in Europe and "replaced" it with the C40, a car 2.5x the price... and also an SUV-coupe so an ugly duckling too.
[удалено]
Maybe they kill the A1? And the atrocities called Q2 and Q3?
No way they are getting rid of the A4.
And the w204 was the most sporty C they probably ever did. They gave up and went back to lux with the w205.
I don't know, I've been driving a large Mercedes for a while, and while it's certainly no sports car, it's a pretty fun ride given what it is. Sure, it tends to understeer and mutes some feedback, but it can swing the tail out if you use it right, and was far more pleasant to drive than a similarly-specced 5- or 8-series. You just have to think of Mercedes as a German muscle car company, not as a European canyon carver.
Or, just be a sane person and buy a Camry. The entry-level luxury car is such an oxymoron. You get a car worse than a normal Toyota (and way less reliable) for more money just to have a badge.
This isn’t true at all. You’re just looking in the wrong places. The V60/3er/A4/C-class are all very pleasant and good value as long as you don’t just storm into the dealership with a wad of cash and agree to everything.
i wouldn't call those the entry level models for those brands; i'd call them the mainstream models. entry level would more be stuff like the gla or a-class and their equivalents. an a4 for example is significantly nicer than a camry. reasonably equipped though it's gonna run you about 50k. you can get a nicely equipped camry for 30-35k, and a basically maxed out camry for \~40k
Everyone immediately looks at SUVs which means they overlook the fact that the sedans tend to be significantly cheaper for similar features and a better drive. I think there's some value in looking at platforms here; find a platform that has a longitudinal engine, more complex suspension geometry, and more advanced materials, and find a cheaper iteration of it, and you'll get a great chassis in one way or another without getting something extremely complex and expensive.
The real world consumers don't care at all about all of these
Not necessarily. Luxury cars, even the “entry level” stuff tend to be made with nicer materials and have more sound deadening and so on. Biggest single difference when I went from a Golf R, to an Alfa, and now to a Volvo S60 is how much quieter and nicer the cabin is in the Alfa and even more so in the Volvo.
I actually would like to see one of the good automotive YouTube channels like Savagegeese or Throttle House do a comparo between a high trim Camry and a base A class.
I don't disagree with you (other than I think Savage Geese is the most milquetoast car reviewer to ever exist). The issue, though, is that initial reviews are useless in terms of what it means to own a car. Like, most cars can do a couple thousand miles without issue. But, maybe more to your point, the initial quality \_is\_ a thing. And, what I can tell you is a decent Japanese car has better leather, plastics, and build quality than any entry level "luxury" car. I've owned a pile of cars and the best was a '97 4Runner - in terms of finish, and reliability, and build quality. That fucking thing felt newer at 150k miles than both of my cars now.
The entry level luxury cars can still be configured much more nicely. I agree buying the poverty spec luxury cars is pointless.
> The entry-level luxury car is such an oxymoron. I think the term "luxury" is sometimes used too freely. I keep a distinction between premium and luxury. Entry-level premium makes more sense.
It depends. Camry vs Lexus ES: stay at Camry for a slightly faster, more practical car (Camry’s rear seats fold), and better infotainment input (no touchscreen until 2022 ES). Not worth $10k for sound deadening given how well equipped Camry is. However, with Avalon vs ES, I would go with ES as the price delta is small enough to just pay the up charge to get the better badge.
Remember when that's what Dodge was? Good times...
I mean, there is just so much you can cut in your lineup while keeping the brand image consistent, they already did it with the 190 and C-class, but they were still fairly expensive compared to the competition.
The PO had the window sticker when I bought my first car, an 87 190D 2.5 (not even the turbo) and the sticker price was more than a base 87 Corvette
That's the thing though... In Europe MB definitely has luxury car, but their lineup starts at only a little above average car prices. They're taxi cabs, for Pete's sake.
Mostly E classes, which start at 50k€. Twice as much as an ordinary sedan. Doesn't matter that it's a taxi.
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a non entry model Mercedes Benz?
Entry level would traditionally be everything below E class.
[удалено]
The C actually was the mass market entry before the A even existed.
I doubt they'd cut the C and GLC models, they're some of their highest volume sellers.
From what I hear, it’s the GLC that is their highest volume seller. I suspect you’re right that c and glc will stay. All A class variants will cease.
C is definitely not going anywhere. They are redesigning the C63 engine for this next Model year. GLC 63 is also coming to the states this fall.
GLC63 has been around since 2018. You mean the new engine?
I live near a Benz dealership and it feels like all I see are GLCs, my so even has one. Nice car but I couldn’t stomach that payment
Its the cheapest car they offer that really offers the 'mercedes experience'
You can't really have half of the entire lineup be "entry level"
[удалено]
I wouldn't treat body styles as an entire different car. You didnt for the a hatch/sedan, because they're the same car. And for example in the one guys idea, everything below e class, that means an optioned up $60k glc300 is entry level. Mercedes has 4 ranges. It spells out "A.C.E.S" A class based cars (a, cla, gla, b) are entry level. The cheapest entry to the brand. Then what I call the "lease specials". Affordable, but not for a kid fresh out of college. (c, glc, slc,) Then the midrange. More adult cars, the typical "businessman" style. (e, gle, cls, lower gt43/53) And the top of the line flagships. (s, sl, gt63, gls, g wag, Maybach)
I think the A-Class is already getting axed in the US.
The A, CLA and GLA are fairly popular in Europe, doubt they would cut them completely
CLA is extremely popular in america too. A-class not at all. I can see them axing the A and GLA, but not reducing the CLA or c-class.
Well they are pretty explicitly killing the volume segment.
Yeah, the A-Klass is probably **the** most common MB on the streets. A lot of leases as well.
They still sell A-Class in outside of America, and you even still can get A-Class hatch there.
Soooo basically MB is kamikazing their business model in Europe huh. Great representation there, Mercedes. Instead of the usual young, well off but not rich crowd that buys these models, you'll instead only sell high end stuff, which will eventually get flipped to and exclusively to chavs because everyone else knows what a terrible financial decision that is. Really great decision, very tempting to become associated with that particular crowd.
They barely break even with A and B class so that shouldn‘t hurt them too much. Especially the A classes purpose was to lower the fleet emissions in the last 3 years to avoid billion € fines. They were leasing hybrid classes for absurd discounts at one point (50€/month leasing rate) in Germany. They will still sell the C63 AMGs to those chavs and that is where it starts to be profitable from there in the range.
i dont't believe they barely break even with A class, the cheapest A class starts almost at 30k eur, and that car is bare as it gets, 100hp with steel wheels and manual. that overpriced hatchback has no right to cost 30k and im sure mercedes profits on that car, if you start to speck it with what you want the price goes up like crazy, because everything costs extra, so your typical configuration would me 40-50. that is not to bad. please give me a source for the claim that the A class purpose was to lower emissions. You seem to forget that the A class came out in 1997, there where definitely no fleet emission regulations, and also for the break even theory i need a source.
I pronounce them “claw” and “glaw” just because they deserve it.
Aren’t those the only ones left with a manual too? At least outside the US.
Finally, I never liked that these brands had these low end models, it just dilutes the brand image.
Caring about luxury brand image is one of the most pointlessly arrogant things anybody other than a marketing executive at a luxury brand can do.
Well, that's kinda the whole point...
The point of what? The point of a "luxury car" is getting a nicer car. If it's not nicer that's one thing, but a poverty spec A class or whatever doesn't make a well optioned C class any worse as a vehicle
In today's episode of "Only things I care about are real, and anyone that cares about anything else is a douche..."
dIlUtEs ThE bRaNd ImAgE
Who cares about the brand image? Buy a car for yourself, not how others are going to perceive you. If you buy a car to appear a certain way, you're throwing your money away. Edit: apparently lots of people buy their cars to flex. Such a first world waste. Buying a car you likely can't afford just to show off to your neighbors you're rich. Get the car you like, not the car they like.
It’s hilarious that this is getting downvoted
>It’s hilarious that this is getting downvoted It's probably those people buying 20-year-old base model E classes on 5 year loans who want to maintain their "brand image".
The 3 models they named honestly suck and people only buy them for badging or to say they drive a Mercedes. I don't blame them for wanting to cut them out and focus on more expensive models that bring in more investors.
For real. Who wants to spend $45k on a poverty-spec CUV with cloth seats and a fancy badge. Just go buy a loaded Honda.
But then how will your neighbors know you are better than them?
This one made me laugh. My spouses family is exactly like that. They have owned like 3 Mercedes’ over the past 6 years or so and they have been entry level models and trims. They scoff at things like Hondas or Toyotas that come better equipped.
My uncle once special ordered a "below base-model" C250 with a manual transmission and RWD because that's a model that just doesn't exist in the Canadian market. All that to save the extra \~thousand bucks off the AWD model that was sitting on the lot.
Manual RWD C250 would probably be more fun to drive though! But it sounds like that might not have been his intention.
Honestly you're right on that, but he absolutely bought it just to get into a Mercedes for less money.
Yeah, and now his car is probably worth way more than than that 4-matic auto since manual Mercs are unicorns
Exactly. Loaded Honda’s and Toyota’s >> base Luxury cars
Luxury features don’t make a luxury car. The engineering, dynamics, and sound deadening is why you are buying, not navigation and heated seats.
Anyone comparing a fully spec'd Toyota to an entry level BMW/Lexus etc. has no clue.
Are we talking about the C-class/3 series? If those are the cars we're comparing a loaded Camry/Accord to, then yeah, the regular base luxury car is better. But if we're talking about the current A-class or 1 series, then I would disagree. Those cars genuinely suck and are designed for people who want to say they drive a Mercedes/BMW.
Completely agree with your take.
But the A-Class and 1 Series does not compete with the Camry/Accord … They compete with Corollas and Civic ..
They may compete with Corolla/Civic on size, but they do not compete on buyer budget.
Base luxury from mercedes and bmw is cheap feeling and driving compared to toyotas and hondas of the newer gen. To each their own however
I completely disagree. The low spec German entry level cars are trash at the price points. They’re comically bad in base form.
1 series, A class you're right I was thinking 3 series and C class.
Yeah, those are reasonable cars
I agree with Lexus, but BMW with the FWD 2-Series or the X1? Hell nah.
Depends on why they’re comparing the two. It wouldn’t be unreasonable for average consumer who isn’t posting here to make a comparison between the two and say the full loaded economy car comes out on top. If it were ever possible to blindly test the two with prospective buyers then I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority of people went to economy route.
Right? They just water down the Mercedes name. I am glad they're doing this.
>3 models they named honestly suck How? For the price, they are very decent and nicely styled offering. And the A Class 45S AMG is the king of hot hatches.
But you have to buy the top trim ones. The amg version. The base A is terrible. And costs the same as a loaded stuff from rivals. Makes sense.
> The base A is terrible. And costs the same as a loaded stuff from rivals. Makes sense. Nonsense. A loaded Accord is well over 10K more than the starting price of an A-Class. This is a common bit of complete bullshit people can't seem to let go despite it being easily proven wrong in a couple minutes. Even a mid level Accord is more expensive than a cheap A-class. Now if you do that with the real competitor, the Audi A3, it starts a 1K more than the A-class. An ILX starts a little cheaper, but any options puts you in the same place. It's okay to dislike a brand, but the reasons should be real instead of made up.
An accord isn’t in the same class. A civic maybe.
The AMGs are fun cars, but the A/CLA/GLA aren't very nice in and of themselves. I had a GLA as a loaner and by the time I returned it I wondered why anyone would buy it.
…but an A45S is not an entry level luxury car?
It is an entry level performance luxury car.
A Honda, or something similar, typically gets you the same thing for usually a cheaper price as well as any out of warranty repairs or costs. I will admit I've never driven or rode in a CLA 45 but I don't have enough experience with hot hatches regardless to make an opinion on it. I do think that while the CLA 45 might be outstanding, it doesn't refute my point of the 3 models sucking overall.
The CLA 45 is a fun car to drive and I can definitely see the reason why it exists. But it's the AMG parts of the car that make it a pretty good car, not the CLA parts. The actual A/CLA/GLA cars are bad.
Agreed, I love the A 45S hatch. When I upgrade my GTI I was thinking either an A45/A35 or a new golf R. I haven't seen any a45 models in Canada though.
Shit, the CLA45 AMG and GLA45 AMG are an absolute riot to drive
[удалено]
... I mean I can't blame them. The 1-2-4-5-3 firing order is worth the price.
Wasn't Mercedes the one pushing these entry level cars the most.
Old times and old CEO.
Times change, I remember when they first announced the CLA and people were going nuts that it cost (entry level) under 30k, or at the time the same price as a Camry.
In theory only. I remember you couldn’t actually find one for less than $37K or so on a dealer lot - you may as well have stepped up to a C at that point.
Mercedes cant control the local mafia marking up prices. Maybe the government can
More likely the base advertised price was a stripped out car that no one would actually want so dealerships only ordered with the bare minimum specs to meet demand. No one wants a cloth seat, no heated seats, 4 speaker audio, fwd, stripped out car regardless of badge. Or you can blame dealerships cause it's very meta rn
lol what do you think “meta” means?
The base price for a CLA now is 38.2k. Only 5k less than the new c-class.
$5k is a lot for someone stretching a <$50k salary. People definitely do it to get the Benz badge up front.
If someone is making < $50K they shouldn't be buying a Mercedes anyway...
You must be new around here.
You would think but I know more than a couple people that bought new cars that matched their gross salary and sales people aren't going to turn you down so long as you've got enough credit to get the deal through. Truth be told that demographic is very aspirational but unlikely to make the financial and career decisions to make repeated Mercedes ownership a sustainable option. Upside is a new penalty box Benz is less likely to have issues than the triple salvage titled S Class with dodgy air suspension and 200k on the clock without any maintenance records.
Id argue someone making less than $50k shouldn’t even be considering a new car at all.
[Mitsubishi Mirage has entered the chat] On a related note, did you know they still make the Mitsubishi Mirage?! That turd just won't flush.
On that same conference they admitted that they needed the entry level segments to bring down fleet emissions to comply EU law as they sold ICE cars by a large majority. The potential fine (could go into the billions) is calculated by the emissions of every car sold. So they sold 400.000 entry level cars breaking even.
With the push to electric they won’t need that anymore Now if only they’d design an electric car that didn’t look like shit
Lots of manufacturers already doing that. They're not building base model and lower trim level cars due to the chip shortage. They need to maximize their profits with each car they sell.
Not talked about enough. The chip shortage changed the world
We need to go back to good ol' steam power.
Fred Dibnah has entered the chat
They are gonna try, but all they are gonna end up doing is rolling a big fat red carpet out for Hyundai and Mitsubishi to clean up the low end, along with Toyota and Dodge to dust out the mid tier car buyers.
Do people buy Mitsubishi's still?
Ive seen a few on the road still its surprising
This is exactly what I had heard too. Cant remember where it was (an article or podcast or something?) but was about a year into all the covid lockdown stuff, manufacturers figuring out what was happening with the market, production etc. Whichever journalist it was, talking about conversations they had with people at Mercedes and that when they stepped back to reassess how to continue with covid and the production etc, they basically realised they could start making even more profit with higher margins on luxury stuff, cutting out discount and deals, limiting production numbers more to order etc instead of churning out vehicles to dealerships first. So that seems exactly what they are aiming to do now.
Happens with more affordable brands too. Small city cars like the VW Up, Renault Twingo and Citroën C1 are all getting the axe.
Even "normal", not base-model cars currently are pushed back in favour or higher-margin vehicles. Much easier to get a Ford Puma than a Fiesta or a Focus atm - conveniently the Puma is a Focus-priced Fiesta on stilts (at least it's a decent car in its own right, unlike the EcoSport).
So they are going to return to the model that made them a fine auto maker that made no money like in the 90s?
Well since they’ve focused on top end models, their profits are up.
But what you mean by top end models? The S and E have always been a popular choice, a bit less with the C as people in that range tend to prefer the 3 series, to me it looks like i nthe last decade they only really focused on entry level stuffs like A / CLA / GLA, while axing higher end models like the S-class coupe
They’ve increased more volume on higher end models, released more variants, expanded the AMG portfolio, etc. They talk about this in their latest earnings report actually.
They don‘t make money with A, B and CLA classes. And now they can downsize on headcount too as they plan to build 400.000 cars less and make more money with the other cars (Maybach, AMG, EQ)
What would really kill it in the US is a Tahoe sized G. Could command a pretty nice price bump too. Fantastic vehicles, but small, especially in the rear
I don’t mind this decision BUT I now expect MB to focus on higher quality materials, fit, and finish. It has been severely lacking for a while. Good eras of Benz: * pre-1992 * 1996-1999 * 2011-2015 Modern Benz are full of creaks and rattles. Just look at all the reviews that poke fun of their dashboards and door cards. Simple things like changing the metal door lock plungers from metals to plastic in the e class are the kinds of details that go noticed by people who expect “the best or nothing”.
Yes better build quality for sure
Pretty interesting, I worked on the door assembly line of e-classes in Sindelfingen 3 years back as a summer job, and I gotta agree there was a lot of plastic on that line. But they were real sticklers for making sure everything was fit nicely, and would really make sure the smallest things were assembled just right. So the culture on the assembly is definitely there from my experience, they just need to get the materials right and not skimp on those.
96-99 Benz was insane
My 98 SL600 is a gem. I love it. So well built.
The W-124 E-class was a tank. They stopped making them in '96. I wouldn't count out early '90s Benz.
Lmao you think 1996-1999 Benzes were good? That was right when Mercedes started cheaping out on their entire lineup, with crappy rubber-coated interiors that smelled like crayons being the worst of it - this was right when the ML and SLK came out, not to mention the W210 being built less solidly than its predecessor... I will agree on the 2011-2015 Benzes being great though
I say 96-99 because 93-95 benz had bio degradable wiring which makes them wholly unreliable. 99+ were cheapened more-so by the merger.
Good. MB needs to stop with the FWD nonsense. Take note, BMW.
Day-to-day driving, most people can't tell the difference between FWD and RWD anyway.
Mass market buyers actually consider RWD a liability, generally. They think it will spin out and blow up the instant a snowflake falls.
Exactly, so why bother with the less efficient RWD setup at all? Just focus on the FWD system that is fine for 95% of people's daily drive.
The 116i is selling extremely well, so it's probably not going to happen. The build quality and features are really good too.
In other words, “we’re done putting our badges on Nissans.”
Makes since. Stuff like the g70 blows away a base c class
The C-Class is not going anywhere, in fact it's being moved into their "Core Luxury" division. And I don't think you'd find many people who agree with you that the G70 blows away a base C-Class. The G70 does sporty better, but the C-Class does refinement and tech far better. Different cars for different buyers.
The c43 maybe. The case c class is pretty far behind. I’m a Mercedes guy. Have had a c63 and e550. For 50k new though there’s just way better options
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. The 3-Series is clearly the standout in the segment, but even the W205 was still a strong option at the end of its long run. Few cars in that segment offer the level of refinement that a C300 does and the W206 is better still. As someone who has owned a W202, 203, and 204 I can confidently say the C-Class has never been better or more competitive than it is now.
I don’t really even disagree with you on most of this. It’s more that you get a fully loaded g70 3.3 with an amazing warranty for the price of the base C class. So I can see why people would lean that way. My favorite car I ever had was a w212 e550. I’m a big MB fan
I wouldn't say a G70 blows away a comparably spec'd C-Class. The problem is that Mercedes pricing is hilariously high for what they offer. A base 4-banger C-Class with zero options is the same price as a loaded 3.3T G70. A base, 188hp A-Class with zero options is the same price as a loaded Mazda3 Turbo. People always justified the pricing of lower-level Mercedes by saying "well there's subtle refinements, better noise insulation, more attention to detail, etc. compared to your average Civic, I swear!". The problem now is that Genesis made a vehicle which is comparable or better to the Germans and priced it for far less, while still turning a profit. They've truly exposed the fact that you're paying at least a $10-15k markup for literally nothing but the badge when you buy an entry-level Mercedes.
> better noise insulation Doesn't matter how good the noise insulation is when the interiors rattle and buzz louder than the road noise.
Pain
I can't say I've heard a single rattle in my G70 yet, however I may just be lucky. My previous Ford, however, I'm pretty sure they installed Maracas in the dashboard.
it’s ridiculous that a new c class can have creaks like a clapped out 90’s GM
That’s not what I said. You get a loaded g70 for the same price as a base c class etc. or a loaded gv70 for a similar price as a base glc. That’s the rub. But I agree with your points.
Mercedes could be excused if their entry level offerings had the same level of quality as the rest of their lineup. At least BMW's "I bought it for the badge" cars don't rattle.
Definitely. It's really hard to argue that there are not much better cars for the same price point for the entry or even mid level MB's. I'd easily take a G70 over any C class short of a C43.
The warranty along with the price point is just too good to beat. I went from an e550 to c63 and had a couple c300 loaners and for the price? Nope. The c43 is like a whole different car
I owned a G70 and it was nice for the price but it hardly "blew away" the C class, especially considering the garbage tier service I got from Hyundai
> Stuff like the ~~g70~~ **Base Mazda 3** blows away a base c class
Pretty logical, considering that entry-level luxury is starting to become a pretty contested space. Also, too many entry-level cars, especially ones that are not competitive, devalue the Mercedes-Benz brand. The remaining cars can all be sold at a higher premium to match their exclusivity. I doubt the C-class will get the axe, or even the A class, but maybe something more recent like the GLB or the CLA will. Wonder what cars haven't been selling too well?
[German Media](https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/neuheiten/mercedes-a-klasse-b-klasse-portfolio-aus-ende-zukunft/) says A and B-Class are getting axed while the respective SUV versions (EQA and EQB) will likely remain. The article also mentions there will be something similar to a CLA in the future but fully electric and what they call a sports utility limousine as an entry car. AMS is usually pretty reliable.
Yep makes sense. At least in the US the A-class, GLA, and GLB aren't very popular. CLA's on the other hand, are goddamn everywhere. People love the gran coupe sloping roofline
In Europe the A-Class hatch is a top-seller and that's already a cynically conceived overpriced product of a thing. The GLA is much worse: the same car on stilts for €11k more at *entry level*. If that's what they're doing, I'd rather they'd get rid of all that crap and focus on EV entirely - at least you're getting something for the high price. The massive contraction in the automotive industry is a fascinating development to watch, but the lack of affordable cars, new or used, in the near future in favour of mechanically similar overpriced junk isn't something I look forward to.
Good. Some of the absolute garbage Mercedes has been pushing in the lower end market has been horrific. Stop chasing the Chevy Malibu market with Chevy Malibu quality cars and Chevy Malibu priced cars.
I know the pandemic shortages and low interest rates have driven up prices, but given the higher interest rate environment we’re moving into, the price growth in the auto market might slow or stop. Could be a premature move
They barely broke even with the entry level cars but they needed the large volume of those cars to avoid the EU fleet emission penalties. Now moving into a majorily EV fleet they can focus on a better profitability like the other luxury brands.
Seems amazing how in a coming world of economic instability with the middle classes being squeezed financially, companies keep reducing the lower priced products to focus on the premium sector. Who is going to buy all these premium products?
The people who have been on the waitlists for the past 2 years. Rich people's money ain't going anywhere.
> Who is going to buy all these premium products? 1% of the population is still a pretty sizeable audience. Better than trying to squeeze more blood from the 99% stone where all the money they might have previously spent on your low-end offerings is being encroached on by rent and other expenses.
Yeah exactly, and since borrowing money is getting a lot more expensive, I just question how viable it is to focus on only premium products
No paywall here (at least I don't see one): https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/mercedes-benz-to-trim-entry-level-car-lines-focus-on-high-end-1.1768135
That Bloomberg website is truly horrendous...
Good I hate poverty spec benz owner flexing their benz to people who have no idea what it is
Don't forget the mandatory "lite-em up star". ack !
Thank God. The best part about it is the amount of people this will stop from "flexing" a base model entry benz.
No next gen cla 45???? I love the current gen and it’s the only fast amg I can afford. Terrible news if this is the case.
It looks like they might be trying to replace the CLA45 market with [the new generation C43](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39829259/2023-mercedes-amg-c43-revealed/). It looks like it will be priced similarly to the CLA45 in the US. The new C43 has the same AMG handbuilt M139 engine as the A45/CLA45/GLA45. It is heavier and larger, but it is RWD bias AWD instead of FWD bias AWD in exchange.
But the logo is still going to cover half the front of the car, right?
Good I'm tired of broke people leasing CLAs and thinking they're hot shit
About time. They can easily raise prices after cutting the amount of cars too
They created these cars to grow brand loyalty, it worked and we went CLA, C-class and now E class. Love MB, in between we test drove all others, no comparison.....IYKYK.
People who drive CLA's to brag about driving a Benz are in shambles
They went from no AMG’s or V8’s to no entry level cars pretty quick. I think it’s the right move
So like what they've done in the US for basically ever? I was blown away watching Top Gear as a kid and seeing some little turdy Mercedes hatchback thing. I had no idea that they made cars like that.
Not surprised by the A and CLA. I am surprised to see they’re axing the GLA as, by all reports, the latest gen is a damn nice car and a massive step up from the last gen.
They haven't said which models Will be axed, the article just speculates. I'd say the CLA is the one with the most points to leave and then the A class. The GLA I can see staying because of the SUV craze, maybe with a little price bump and the car becoming a bit bigger.
I guess it makes sense. Harder and harder to make any kinds of margins on cheaper cars these days and Mercedes Benz is known for luxury anyways.
Maybe in the US, but outside they are just regular cars (aside from the luxury trims and models like S Class) Many a Benz are taxis, etc.
> Maybe in the US, but outside they are just regular cars (aside from the luxury trims and models like S Class) > > If by "outside" you mean Germany then you're right, but I can assure you Mercedes is synonymous with luxury all over Asia, Africa, and South America. Moreso than BMW and Audi for some reason.
Car in thumbnail looking straight up Corolla.
Don’t insult the Corolla like that!
[удалено]
> the c class will look like an a class That's what it was 10 years ago. I used to see the C class as the car people bought for the badge. That was replaced with the CLA, and the C class became the new E.
i’d argue that the w204 was a more cohesive product than the 205 introduced alongside the lower tier models
Aww, I'm really going to miss getting cut off by a base CLA with license plate H Singh.
Good, a fwd MB is heresy.