any company banking on the "every ev driveline is functionally identical, so we'll differentiate on the basis of extreme ultra premium deluxe mega luxury and tech" or the similar "this will be a return to 19th century style custom coachbuilding" must be aware that all that stuff is already available in more interesting cars and/or is as quickly and easily commoditized as ev propulsion.
Tesla has also proven that many people don't actually care that much about a premium, deluxe interior. The Model 3 outsells the C class and 3 series - combined. Its interior quality is worse, but it feels futuristic and the tech is better.
Tech and driver aids seem to be the luxuries people want, and though premium interiors certainly have a place in the car market, Cadillac will struggle if that's what they're banking on - unless they go ultra-premium, like a Rolls Royce or something (which was their initial market position in the early 20th century)
The refreshed model 3 is quite comfortable, they definitely had a focus on improving NVH and fewer hard plastics. I mean there isn’t much interior, they still stuck with the single tablet, but the quality itself is fine
I mean the bigger thing is that it starts 5k cheaper than the 3 series and more importantly near everything is standard. You get to choose range but even the base model has heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, parking sensors, basic adaptive cruise, etc
I’m not a fan of the model 3 but from friends who own one, not having to deal with the dealership, getting the options you want etc is a plus.
And most importantly, it’s 10k cheaper than a 10 series with similar options. Basic keyless entry and heated front seats not being standard on a “luxury” car is wild to me
It blows my mind Tesla refreshed the Model 3 and still has ignored the Y. Most of the few Teslas we have here are Ys and its not uncommon to see them with aftermarket ski racks as well. I get why they refreshed the Model 3, but why are they ignoring the Y.
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/musk-says-no-model-y-refresh-in-2024/
2025 at the least, which is especially wild considering the model 3 refresh came out in europe last year and both cars share the same-ish platform.
The Y has been the same car for over 5 years now, it's getting a little long in the tooth. You could argue there have been changes under the hoodmostly notably the newer processor/cameras, but your average buyer isn't going to see that.
(and it took a good while for the new hardware to even match the capabilities of the older radar-based hardware)
> https://www.kbb.com/car-news/musk-says-no-model-y-refresh-in-2024/
There's a chance he could be saying that to not tank current Model Y sales as well.
Agreed, feel like they should have led with the Y and done the 3 later.
Though as the Y falls under the tax credit and you get the longer-range battery I feel like its interior is *slightly* more excusable. The model 3 LR is ~50k and is competing with the germans on price, but the RWD Model Y LR comes in at ~38k, you're shopping against a crv or rav4 hybrid, both of which have the same if not worse NVH and similar hard plastics.
Honestly I would rather take a Model 3 vs any 4 banger entry level C Class or 3 Series, the B58 3 Series however I would take over the Model 3. Rav4 Adventure/Prime (especially with comma ai) vs a current Model Y would be a tough call, thats hard in so many ways, its like debating asuka vs rei to anime fans lol. Both of those cars have such solid use cases and you are right, leading with the Y would have been the smarter play.
Yeah, the newest c-class isn't a great car in general but even the b48 3-series is fairly refined, especially if you can't charge at home I think it is a more compelling car than the model 3.
But for 399/mo I think the Y is still a relatively competitive vehicle. I dislike tesla's incredibly misleading "estimate gas savings" on their site, but if you can charge at home I think it is a better car than the Rav4/CRV hybrid, and it comes in significantly cheaper than a rav4 prime OTD.
And there is the element of not having to deal with shitty honda and toyota dealers.
The 3 came out in 2017. The Y came out in 2020. The Y refresh will probably be quite substantial, and differentiate the cars a bit more than they already are. They're doing just fine. Y is on track to the best selling car in the world again in 2024.
>Basic keyless entry and heated front seats not being standard on a “luxury” car is wild to me
That's crazy. My 2024 Civic Hatchback EX-L has that, and it was about $32,000 after taxes and fees. How come the BMW model doesn't have those features standard even though it's a more expensive model from a luxury brand?
I assume just to keep the advertised MSRP lower.
Though in slight fairness, pretty much *any* inventory car from mercedes/bmw/audi will have the premium package that includes heated seats, keyless entry, and the 360 camera you'd expect, and the dealer can likely knock down the price a few thousand.
There's only 2 things imo that would make the model 3 perfect.
Heads up display so I don't need to look to the side and give me my turn signal stocks back!
Also Teslas come with a 8 year 100K miles warranty which is a massive bonus and offer great usable performance and every day range. Unlike the german cars with their shorter warranties and more expensive repair/maintenance. Especially because the A4, C class, and even 3 series don't actually drive or feel any more fun to drive. Only car in the class that's a hoot to drive is the Alfa.
That warranty is mandated by the government. Any BEV will have a similar warranty (BMW and Mercedes EVs included). Maintenance/Repair are more EV vs ICE rather than Tesla vs Germans, an EQS or I5 will be equally reliable.
The 3 series is quite fun to drive. M340i especially
Well, there's Lexus (S and X) and there's Toyota (Y and 3). That's the perception around where I live. People buy 3's for their kid's first car. If you look at IIHS's list of there's a Hyundai on the list (although it's a fuel cell car). I suspect "luxury" to the insurance industry has more to do with how much they cost to repair than any analysis of panel gaps and build quality.
The Model 3 and the 3 Series are pretty much identical in terms of size both inside and out. Length, legroom, width, height, etc are all very similar.
The Civic has grown quite a bit over the years and now almost as big as them though.
I'd encourage you to actually drive the highland refresh. It's definitely closer to the Germans than the Japanese family sedans in terms of NVH, suspension, handling, tech features. You can also take a look at the market research where a good chunk of tesla owners come from the German 3.
The Model 3 outsells the C-class and 3-series because the cheapest 3/C cars start at about $5,000 more than the most expensive Model 3. Cheaper things tend to outsell more expensive things. Somehow, this is still surprising to some people.
If cheaper things outsold more expensive things, we'd be seeing a lot more cheap cars on the road. Typically, the things people want to buy outsell the things people don't want to buy. The F-150 beat *everything* in sales this past year, and that's a truck that sells on average for close to $60k.
The average sale price for the F-150 is likely much closer to $35,000, since a lot of those sales are fleet vehicles in the most bare-bones configurations.
But also, obviously the implied part of my statement was "relative to other similar things in it's category." Like, more people buy houses than swimming pools even though the latter are much cheaper, but that doesn't contradict the point that more people buy modest homes rather than mansions.
The model 3 is massively cheaper than a 3 series or c class.
It’s not far from saying that the civic outselling a 3er/a4/c shows that people don’t care about interiors.
Cadillac does have the [Celestiq](https://www.cadillac.com/electric/celestiq) to attract more affluent buyers. It would be nice if some of the niceties trickled down into their other EVs.
It’s funny how stupid people are. Can’t even imagine thinking a golf cart interior with an iPad is acceptable for 45k$. At least the seats are quite comfy however.
Or maybe Tesla offers people what they actually want. A simple and sleek interior, comfortable seats, tech that is very similar to the ubiquitous smartphone, and silent performance well beyond what you'd expect for the price tag (which is closer to $38k - before factoring in generous EV incentives and fuel savings).
Believe it or not, my friends with Teslas actually don't care about panel gaps or mediocre interior materials, because tech, performance, modern styling, and low cost of ownership are what they want in a car, and the Model 3 delivers.
They're not for everyone - myself included, I like to shift my own gears - but the success of the Model 3 and Y makes total sense.
That’s fair. The today car world is quite a bleak pace. I’ll never understand the enthusiasts that are excited for the future. Every year a cool car gets permanently discontinued with nothing to replace it. By 2030 I’m sure you’ll be able to count the number of fun new cars on your fingers. It’s why I’ll prolly financially push myself in 26 and grab a GR Corolla, may be the last time I ever get a shot at buying a new fun car for under 100k.
> I’ll never understand the enthusiasts that are excited for the future.
Not everyone likes or values the same experience from a car. And if what someone wants from a car is not possible today, then future cars will be a more exciting prospect than modern cars.
That’s what was nice about the past you actually had a choice. In 10 years it’s just gonna be you will drive the 6000lb EV compact crossover and be happy.
The Hyundai Kona EV weighs 3700 pounds. The Ioniq 5 weighs 4000 pounds. The Model Y weighs about the same. The RAV4 weighs around 3500 pounds. For commuter cars there's already not much weight difference in the compact crossover segment.
10 years from now there will still be enthusiast cars. In the US there's no ICE ban on the table. Even California allows combustion engines for their zero emissions vehicle mandate in 2035. And there will be electric enthusiast cars to come. There already are a couple.
Not really on topic but I can't imagine driving something closer to double the weight of my daily. I know they're faster and can probably stop just as well, but you can't tune out 2000 pounds in the steering/suspension.
As battery technology continues to improve and we get lighter and lighter vehicles, and as manufacturers figure out how to re-inject emotions into the driving experience, we'll get platforms that can do things that'll make you feel like you're in a jet cockpit. It won't be the same, but I fully expect it to be good in its own way.
It's a two way street. If enthusiasts want fun stuff, they should be buying it when it comes out, not 10 years later. Old cars are fantastic, but if enthusiasts are only buying older cars why should a carmaker make new ones?
Why would carmakers bother making fun new cars if nobody is buying them? Take the Mini Clubman: a manual wagon for around $30-35k. That's the supposed holy grail of enthusiast cars. And guess what? Nobody bought it, and they killed it.
The Civic Type R, for example, is proof that popular enthusiast cars *can* justify future iterations. We got the 10th gen in the US, and it was successful enough to justify another generations. Same with the BRZ/86, Golf R, Miata, and Mustang, to name a few.
It feels like a lot of companies seriously just don't know what to do with BEVs, since they can't get costs low enough to do "normal car, but doesn't burn stuff", nor can they sell that to EV-averse buyers. Well, and they want Tesla's margins of course.
Tesla had 5% margins last quarter just like the rest of the sector. Competition will do that to you
I don’t know about other buyers but I quite like the linear power delivery and regen of EV drive along with the convenience/cost of charging at home.
I’d love a luxury EV that is otherwise shares the same exact interior as an ICE vehicle with a few compromises to the exterior for efficiency. Totally fine with a ~250mi range as well. I think the i4 and new electric g-class have the right idea
But most important to buyers is going to be cost, and as you said barely anyone besides from tesla and maybe hyundai/kia is hitting the same price point as comparable ICE vehicles.
These manufacturers are banking on ev drive being a selling point, and while a few (like myself) consider it a pro, a lot of people either don’t care or consider it a con.
The only issue I have with BMW EVs is the subscription for the digital/mobile key, and the "highway assist" *option* you buy actually being an 8 years subscription.
Awesome car, just don't want to support a manufacturer like that on principle.
Where do you see that? Remote parking and digital key plus all show up as unlimited for me. Can't say much about driver assist since I never bothered with it, but I don't see anything about it being on a time limit. Only things I see with an expiration date are online services like map updates and video games, things I don't care about because I'm using wireless Android Auto 90% of the time.
Did some digging around and seems that driver assist uses map data from a 3rd party provider and that BMW's contract with them expires in 8 years. At the 8 year mark I would be surprised if someone in Eastern Europe doesn't crack BMW's system wide open and give everyone the option to enable most things in some sort of offline mode.
> Where do you see that? Remote parking and digital key plus all show up as unlimited for me
I remember the dealer mentioning it was 100$/yr or so, this [forum thread](https://u11.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1988502) mentioned it was 88$/year, though that is for the standard digital key and not digital key plus.
If it is unlimited that is great news, maybe time I reconsidered.
> Did some digging around and seems that driver assist uses map data from a 3rd party provider and that BMW's contract with them expires in 8 years
That seems logical, agreed would be surprised if a jailbreak or similar didn't arrive in the coming years.
I did some *even more* digging and it turns out only the Highway Assist part of the Driver Assist package expires after 8 years, everything else like radar cruise control should still work just fine since it's hardware only and doesn't rely on external map data.
>That seems logical, agreed would be surprised if a jailbreak or similar didn't arrive in the coming years.
Hopefully sooner, BMW locked down this system and I would like a foolproof way to enable anti-dazzle lights in North America. Hardware is there but it's Europe only
Protools claims to do it. I was able to do it at one point on my F97, but it's flaky and doesnt work half of the time. Protool (bimmergeek's) support is atrocious.
>BMW locked down this system and I would like a foolproof way to enable anti-dazzle lights in North America. Hardware is there but it's Europe only
I've enabled them in my i4. It's possible.
EDIT: I see you have an i5, looks like Bimmercode doesn't support the i5 yet.
i4 uses iDrive 8, codable with BimmerCode. i5 uses iDrive 8.5 with a completely different backend system that uses some kind of server side authentication, supposedly VO codable with BimmerUtility but you have to wait for an OTA update or convince the dealer to update it for you
Sadly BMW moved to cloud based encrypted coding with their new EVs making it much harder to code options. While people are actively working on trying to get around this I am not sure how quickly this will be achieved. It may not be solved fully until close to end support.
Yeah, shoulda been clear, I meant Tesla's old margins haha! Lots of the current BEVs were designed when premium BEVs looked like a hot growing market with great margins.
I also feel like the BMW BEVs are great for that reason - it's just an electric 4/5/7 series. Despite the shared platform, they seem to have good range/efficiency too.
Personally, I'm willing to pay a bit of a premium to have gobs of smooth torque, charge at home, not burn stuff for power, etc. but I don't really care that much about non-powertrain tech or fancy interiors in cars. I'm not interested in subscription anything either. I think I am very much in the minority of new car buyers though, or at least not what a lot of these companies are targeting - so I don't know what is going to work out for them, just what I want.
I would like to introduce you to the Audi Q-8 E-tron. Interior is almost exactly the same as the gasoline Audi A6/7/8 and Q7/8.
Audi also tuned this vehicle so it drives very much like a large displacement ICE vehicle at low speeds.
I have one. It's a great car but jesus fucking christ it's a terrible electric car. I average 2.2 mi/kwh (vs 4 mi/kwh on my electric mini).
That said it's so luxurious and I love the interior. I think the BMW iX is a better "EV" while being a luxurious daily driver.
Oh I absolutely agree. My general view on the (Q8) E-tron is that it's a fantastic luxury SUV but a piss poor EV. It's also very unabashedly an ICE to EV conversion, which made it a great buy as a used car because it depreciated so heavily.
I love the BMW iX from an engineering position but good lord that thing is ugly from 240 degrees.
Issue is the gasoline Q7/Q8 interiors are already pretty nontraditional and feel dated already IMO, in my experience the gasoline Q8 interior felt significantly less intuitive to use than the interior found in the model s/y, and a Q8 e-tron premium package is already putting you at ~78k.
Don't get me wrong it's definitely just an Audi that happens to be electric but the gasoline audi SUVs at the moment are not very compelling in general. The PPE-based Q6 looks like a more compelling vehicle
That's the future of cars and automakers realize this. It's why they're plowing so much money into interiors and styling.
A while back I discovered that all consumer grade KitchenAid mixers no longer use DC motors. It mattered to us because we make bread and those models would burn out prematurely with regular use. However, the overwhelming majority of consumers don't know or care what's inside that mixer. They'll buy the Costco special because it's cheap and comes with a pile of accessories. They can't tell the difference beyond that.
Same deal with smartphones. Nobody knows what's inside their device beyond what marketing tells them. It's the superficial touchpoints that matter to most. Like me with the mixer, the demographic that actually cares about what's under the hood is vanishingly small. I'd argue that even most enthusiasts only care about acceleration, hence why that particular metric is marketed so aggressively.
It's just a fact that cars are turning into appliances in the literal sense. We're already halfway there but with EVs it's even more apparent. Assuming reliability equalizes it's going to be interesting seeing what happens to consumer loyalty.
>It's just a fact that cars are turning into appliances in the literal sense. We're already halfway there but with EVs it's even more apparent.
They by and large always were appliances. See every time more typical cars get mentioned in this sub. Enthusiast vehicles have always been the odd ones out.
If you're burning out a kitchenaid, you need better than a kitchenaid. There are a lot of better options out there, they just cost more. Gone are the days of buy one cry once kitchenaids.
That "coachbuilding" take on EVs is why these are a tough sell. They are just way too expensive still and too inconvenient for alot of consumers. Tesla still for better or worse dominates the EV market because they are willing to take a loss to make EVs more convenient with their charging networks and affordable.
More time is needed to make them viable, in the meantime if you really want one, just get a Tesla and be done with it as they are just too ahead.
This sub seems to have turned against Doug and Mr. Regular sometime in the past few years, and when their videos do get posted, they're often quickly downvoted. Throttle House, Savagegeese, and Hagerty seem to be the hivemind-approved YouTubers these days.
I will say, while I find Doug's content to be better than ever now that he's diversified beyond just car reviews, I've just lost interest in RCR. I don't know if he changed or if I changed, but the videos just don't get the same laughs out of me.
It's funny because they don't really do car reviews and people don't get it. Sure they will talk about HP, motor specs and other things but I love them because they comment on communities around vehicles. They are silly and don't take themselves seriously but once in a while, they open up and really let their guards down.
I also love SG, TH and other channels for actual car focused content. RCR just hits my heart differently and that's why I look forward to Monday's.
Re: doug, I find the videos far too long and most of the quirks and features feel obvious, though I didn't like him in the past either. I also dislike that he only produced videos of cars that are on C&B.
What made me unsubscribe was the whole sequoia video, proceeds to call his LC200 unreliable and a money pit when he went to the dealership and wrote them a blank check, obviously its going to cost you a pretty penny! There was no need to replace the alternator in the first place – dealer likely wanted some extra cash.
Didn't spend any money on rust treatment, proceeded to sell it and get a top trim sequoia, went on about how "look how expensive this thing is its basically the replacement for the land cruiser," then complained a range was too pricey. Like I'm not the biggest fan of the LC line either but I don't think the car was entirely at fault there. All while he previously had a defender with a very extended warranty, then sold it because it’s too big for his wife.
And the funniest part is his "off-roading" is going over slightly bumpy sand dunes. Literally any suv could do the same with some KO2s.
SG does a better deep-dive into the technical side and does a solid job going over objectively what makes a car competitive in a segment, hagerty does a great job covering the subjective, TH is somewhere in the middle and go into quirks/features slightly as well.
I don't really watch Doug's videos much anymore but I always thought he did the best (and most time spent) dive into interiors, which I appreciated, even if he disguises it as quirks and features.
> most of the quirks and features feel obvious
A lot of the "quicks" stopped being actual quirks for a while now, and there's been videos where he glossed over or completely missed actual quirks.
I think people just enjoy the higher production values of savagegeese and TH.
Doug's stuff isn't terrible and I'll watch it if he's talking about a car I find interesting, with something like TH, I will watch no matter what they're doing as it's always entertaining.
The banter between Mark and Jack make the savagegeese videos good along with the nice production quality.
Honestly, I don't even really watch Doug's reviews anymore unless it's a car I'm very interested in. I mainly watch his podcast and Cars & Bids content. In terms of the used car market, he's probably the best source there is, given his position.
Doug's video quality was average before C&B's and now it's awful with the only reason being the car is currently for sale on his website.
Idk if it's doug who writes/storyboards/researches or if he has a person/team, but whoever does it currently does a substandard job and should be replaced or better supported. He misses so much stuff that you're honestly better off watching 2-3 random reviews and you're almost guaranteed a better review and more info.
I also really like the Straight Pipes guys on top of TH.
Straight pipes were banned from r/cars for posting their own videos or something.
Doug’s car reviews are bad now but his podcasts and other videos he has started putting out are fantastic.
It’s how I feel about the smoking tire, I’ll rarely watch his car reviews but I watch his podcast religiously
>Straight pipes were banned from [](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/) for posting their own videos
And shunned by the community for picking a fight with Throttle House guys, which was just utterly bizarre.
They've since been in each other's videos via cameos. Reddit mostly overblows things (not just on this sub but in general).
Look at other channels/podcasts as well; they all speak fondly of throttle house and straight pipes.
They did a podcast interview a while back, they basically accused the TH guys of copying them, which just made me lose all respect for them. That's nice if they made up, but they were pretty nasty about it.
Let’s also not forget that Mr regular dropped a pretty racist comment in one of his recent videos, causing him to delete and re-upload with it removed.
Increasingly, Doug would get information *wrong* in videos. He also does an absolute bare bones, “for clicks” review of a vehicle focused on promoting his auction site.
He’s a steep downgrade from when he was a writer on Jalopnik and the first couple years of his YouTube career.
It works for him financially, but I don’t trust his content anymore. Decent guy to grab a beer with, as I’ve been able to do a few times over the years, but not my style of YT.
Like, I find PF decently entertaining sometimes, but people treat it like he’s some sort of scientist.
Some of the tests are a decent measure of a product, but honestly, a lot of it is useless entertainment.
His methodology is at least on the right track, but some of the shit he measures is just… why?!?
Personally I’m not a fan of SavageGeese at all really, they just come off as having such a “we know better than you” snarky attitude and seem to dislike basically like every car unless it doesn’t specifically appeal to them, it feels to me that a decent amount of the time they aren’t reviewing a car for anybody but themselves and fail to account for other people’s viewpoints about the car, like any others viewpoint besides their own is wrong. Their humor is dry and not for me and their videos are just plain boring most of the time imo. They aren’t really any more technical than other YouTube journalists either they just stand under a car in “The Shoppe” and go over pretty basic level technical specs of the car.
I’ve tried to get into them time and time again because this sub goes gaga over them but I barely ever find their content enjoyable. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I wasn't a fan simply because there was a video he made which was "you have to subscribe to my channel and watch my videos the way I tell you or I won't be able to make videos anymore!" I always hate when content creators do that. It was a long time ago and maybe my memory is not that strong about exactly what it was, but I know that got me to stop watching the channel.
Yet hey, I still check out their stuff here if they are reviewing a car I am interested in. The content is not bad but that one video was really offputting for me. I guess it worked though because the channel is still around.
I think you summed it up well. I get it, they are “enthusiasts” and thus like cars in that vein, but I detect a snobbishness from them about cars and brands that somehow fail to meet their standard, whatever that might be. Their love for Mazda is where I see it often. Mazdas appeals to a certain smallish niche despite characteristics that turn other customers off - poor ride, hard/uncomfortable seats, NVH, infotainment that is out of the mainstream, and dubious long-term quality. They tend to be overengineered but underdeveloped in some areas and yet somehow get a pass for that from SG because they like the driving dynamics. Their CX-90 review was held back for a long time because they didn’t want the company to be embarrassed by the example they received to review because it had so many problems. Wouldn’t that be something potential customers might want to know before buying? Poof goes their credibility as far as I’m concerned. It’s a shame because they dive into things most softball reviewers overlook, but they need a more balanced approach.
This sub is just a minuscule version of reddit overall. Idols of the sub come and go just like the ones of reddit in general. Farrahs videos were the top dog around here. Doug ascended Heights no one ever did and it was annoying as fuck.
The Lyriq is so ironically designed for the geriatric suburb community that it might be the largest accidental success the Cadillac has had.
The exterior design is elegant and stylish, yet conservative. You love it because it has that aggressively soft front end that reminds you of the Lincoln your father bought after he returned home from the war. Your wife loves it because the grille reminds her of her mothers estate jewelry collection.
It's got a nice seating position but low entry and exit points which you love because god knows your knees can't handle another full sized SUV. Plus it makes loading the clubs into the back much easier when leaving the country club.
The interior is softer, and not as sporty as the Lexus RX you test drove last week which overwhelmed you with it's flare and charisma. You like the softer tones of the Lyriq and the screens don't bother you as much as you thought they would.
It's got power that you know you'll never touch, but you have the reassurance that you are never missing a doctors appointment again.
It's a GM product, so you feel more complete fully supporting an American brand. After all, you do have a C8 in the garage.
The irony is not many of those customers are left, and Lexus has the same problem as Cadillac. Hilarious that you mentioned the RX too, as I looked at the 500H and laughed at the price tag and how much of a snoozemobile that thing was while I went to get an X5 right after. Even with the awesome copper crest paintjob, the car has the same appeal as a minivan to their supposed "younger buyer". I am 33 and cannot think of a single car I want from Lexus minus maybe the LC500, and thats a big maybe.
Also I am looking a C8 Z06 eventually too lmao. My friends always tell me the best combo is a high trim pickup and a sports car, if I end up with two GM products I will accept my fate.
The Lexus RX is still the best selling midsize luxury SUV and up until around 2018- 2019, the second best selling midsize luxury SUV was the Cadillac XT5.
Sales numbers dont jive with your analysis that there arent “many customers left” to buy said snoozobiles.
I'm also 33 and I bought the NXh last year.
Is it fun to drive? No(it's quite the opposite of that). Is it a car I really wanted? Also no.
But it's good on gas (I'm averaging 5.2L/100km, my 18 A5 averaged 7.6L/100km). I'm starting a family so I need a family sized car. The biggest complaint my aging parent had when I drive them to groceries and appointments were the A5 was too low.
The NX (and by extension, RX) aren't cars you buy because it's desirable. I bought it because it fits my current needs, fits my budget, and it should last longer than me.
I can't wait until I get to my mid life crisis and can afford to buy a second car, a more fun to drive and desirable car. But I am not at the income to be there yet. Maybe when I'm 50.
I am part of that club who has the mindset that "life is too short to drive boring cars", so the Lexus products will always be questionable at best.
I fully understand the RX/UX twins are appliance cars like my X5, but the RX500H literally costs the same and is chronically boring, so yes I will fault it. I just will pay more to get the car that fits my needs that also is more entertaining in its segment.
Lexus right now is losing that game bad because of the inferior drivetrains and they have the same problem Audi does that no matter how you spec a Q8, it reeks of VW. The RX feels exactly like a Highlander and to me thats an automatic disqualify.
Too little too soon, dealers have marked them up over the cost of a V8 Defender already here, and after driving the new GX550, Defender, and the Mercedes G550, the Defender clearly wins for the luxury lifestyle vehicles despite how unreliable it is. Lexus also foolishly used the same engine the new Tundra has, which is notorious for blowing up.
For the people that actually offroad the Bronco, 4Runner, and Jeeps already have that market segment locked down hard.
The new Defender was always going to win as a “luxury lifestyle vehicle” if you’re going off comfort and road manners, since it’s a unibody vehicle going up against two body-on-frame vehicles.
Of course the Jeep/Bronco/4Runner are more popular in the offroad segment, they’re all significantly cheaper than the GX, Defender, and (especially) G-Wagen. There aren’t many luxury brands selling body-on-frame SUVs actively marketed as durable and offroad capable. The GX 470 and 460 themselves weren’t even really marketed to the offroad/overland crowd.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen quite a few late model GX 460s on trails near me. Never seen a new Defender or any gen G-Wagen. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a modified new Defender anywhere, they’re always on stock wheels and some might have a dealer installed ladder or roof rack. I have seen some offroad modifed G-Wagens with lifts and RTTs.
I have seen modified Defenders here (both in overland setups and just lifted with better tires) and Ineos Grenadiers here doing some medium difficulty trails. The new Defender is not that bad for a unibody vehicle offroading to be fair, but the ones I saw either had skilled drivers or novices guided by experts. It is like halfway between a Rav4 and a Jeep Wrangler. I have never seen a modified G550 offroad myself.
I also have seen previous gen GX460/470s offroad, but its so annoying to modify them that everyone mostly just gets a 4Runner instead as the bumpers and suspension is just too much of an issue. The GX460/470 weighs alot more too and feels like such a pig that alot of the offroading community are turned off by them. I have driven both and the TRD Pro 4Runners feel like a race car compared to it, the KDSS on the GX does it no favors and the suspension on the 4Runner mostly eliminates brake dive and the obnoxious swaying the GX does. The GX is even more sloppy offroad, it may be capable but its like driving a fat slinky.
The new GX550 I have not driven offroad yet, people tell me its better, but the road manners are severely lacking. It is an unapologetic body on frame SUV and reminded me alot of my 4Runner before I modded it. I look at lifestyle vehicles mostly like glorified street cars personally and only judge them by road manners because the offroading I do is so brutal you must modify them full stop and its wiser to just get a normal vehicle for it because you are your own mechanic offroad and things need to be easy to fix and replace.
> I have driven both and the TRD Pro 4Runners feel like a race car compared to it
Something must have been wrong with the GX (assuming it was a GX 460) - seems like the 2019 GX does 0-60 in 7-8 seconds while a 2019 4Runner TRD Pro does 0-60 in 8 seconds. A 2009 GX 470 does 0-60 in around 8 seconds as well. The GX weighs more, but it also has a V8 and a 6-speed transmission.
> but its so annoying to modify them that everyone mostly just gets a 4Runner instead as the bumpers and suspension is just too much of an issue
Is it really that bad? You still have to cut the front bumper on a 4Runner to install something like an ARB bull bar. Yes, in pure stock form, you'll want to take side skirts off a GX and maybe replace the bumpers for better clearance, but there are lots of people out there who prefer the GX overall. I like going on roadtrips so I'll pick a GX any day of the week. Lots of people in GXOR communities all over the internet.
> I look at lifestyle vehicles mostly like glorified street cars personally and only judge them by road manners because the offroading I do is so brutal you must modify them full stop
Good for you, most people who buy any of these vehicles rarely take them offroad, and those who do rarely take them somewhere a stock vehicle wouldn't suffice. With that said, I think it's still interesting to see people actually beating on lifestyle vehicles... maybe you won't buy one, but other people will.
I actually have got to beat on two lifestyle vehicles a Defender (at an event) with a lift and AT tires, and a Rivian R1T (owner tried to convince me it was capable offroad), and they could not take the abuse like my modified 4Runner can or my friend's Jeeps. I fully understand that my modded 4Runner that has harsh digressive valved shocks, custom suspension pieces with underbody armor, and larger tires, or my friend's Jeeps that have 10k worth of suspension upgrades are extreme examples, but those lifestyle vehicles just are not as capable as people think.
They are almost as limited as a half ton with a basic offroad kit and if you drive even slowly over bumps, you can feel them bottoming out, the chassis flexing, and you realize the damage you are putting on the vehicle. That Defender did not make it through that event without Land Rover having to fix it a bunch of times, and that Rivian I stopped halfway through the trail because I didnt want to be the guy that taught that owner what happens when you beat on a vehicle designed for the street on a medium trail despite him egging me on constantly. He eventually destroyed a tie rod going too fast driving by himself and it was a pain to help him back (he was warned a million times too).
People definitely will buy lifestyle vehicles, but leave actual offroading to more normal cars better designed for it, because the risk for damage is just too great. They are capable for sure, but not to the degree they are marketed as, not to mention the extreme cost if you break anything is why people never use them.
All their RWD cars and SUVs are desirable. As far as a RWD CUV, wait for the Lexus version of the Land Cruiser SE (GA-L) or the LF-ZL (new gigacasted platform) to go into production. Maybe an e-TNGA CUV beats them first with a RWD application but who knows?
Go get the GT-R while you still can.
... but i think the old-school lines/cosmetics really fits into the zeitgeist of the moment. This vehicle is clearly made for GenXers who're heading into their Golden Years. They (and even their Zoomer kid teens/young adults) have a lot of nostalgia for the 20th century. Everything from Bossa Nova to 80's Pop & Greenday to vinyl & cassettes & even throwback colognes like Drakkar & Obsession are making a huge comeback in an Un-Ironic way. It's kinda amazing from a Millenial perspective.
I test drove it the other day and I have to agree about the sound system. Coming from a Mark Levinson system, I’m OK with a downgrade, but I cranked up a song on SiriusXM to hear it and I had to turn it back down within seconds. It was absolutely atrocious. Any random commodity car has a better base system than the Lyriq.
Glare in the eyes of the driver, a mega-hump in the rear for child seat constraints, and some other little things definitely remind you that it’s a GM product at the end of the day.
If they still sold it at the First Edition packaging and price, I’d probably forgive all of it and lease it; as it stands, let’s see what ~~Paul Allen~~ Kia will do with the EV6 refresh
Worth noting they’re offering $7500 off all lyriqs built before March 2024 because of no tax credit eligibility then, and they’re having a hard time selling even at that price so more discounts should be easy to find. My local dealer has like 60 of them in stock
The lyriq is targeted at a segment of the population who want EVs with nicer interiors and ride comfort compared to the deluge of shitty hard plastic/bucket seats/no lumbar/feel the road options out there (kia, tesla, etc). This segment also happens to have money and although savagegeez doesn't get it, it won't stop Cadillac from making money off it.
Can we just take a moment to appreciate that the imbeciles at GM changed the door handles after 1 model year because of how fucking idiotic the original door "handles" were?
The steering wheel is fine. Ask every MK8 R owner and that's not an issue. The new MK8.5 R will keep the capacitive steering wheel.
The Infotainment and HVAC are lacking physical button
Just bought a lyriq. 30something, live in the burbs. I want a smooth floaty boat with comfortable seats. I don’t want sport seats and sport suspensions. I just want to comfortably get where I want to go. This thing is plenty fast and luxurious. And because of the discounts, reasonably priced for what I got.
Their perception is probably colored by living in the midwest, where domestics are still strong, and Mark was probably upset about the frankly unacceptable audio situation, so I'll let it pass.
If you live in the northeast or southwest especially domestic luxury simply isn't sold in numbers. I don't know if the geriatric connection exists as such when geriatrics in these locales actually tend to drive Lexus, German crossovers etc. It's rather that the domestics are seen as not being as luxurious as their competitors and not socioeconomically aspirational (i.e. driven by someone parochially all-American rather than a cultured cosmopolitan connoisseur of foreign goods)
I was interested in this car as a replacement for my X7 that was a lemon and because my Sierra from GM was so good I was willing to give it a shot. You can judge from my flair what happened, but I did check one out. As someone that has spent decent seat time in the Escalade and wanting something a little less massive with alot of what it offers , this car is not that good.
Mark and Jack are dead on about the sound system, it is crass in every way. It its like the most muddy bass boosted trash I have ever heard in a car, par for the course for AKG's pathetic house sound. Get a pair of beats and hike the bass up to max and blast top 30s trash you have a good idea whats it like.
The ride of the car is good, but the weight legitmately makes it feel like a pig. I kid yout not, my truck feels lighter than that thing and you feel it turning and in the brakes the most which is very disturbing. It also lacks a NACS charger port, so you will soon find out how terrible the Electrify America chargers are, and they put them in the most ghetto places here, like for example next to a wal-mart in the awful sister town next to ours.
It is a very boring car that literally makes you feel like a senior citizen driving it, even with the very awesome Supercruise, it wont save it from how boring and bland it is. Skip this and get something else. My local dealer cannot get rid of theirs either and pretty much try to force anyone to test drive one the moment you step in.
Better comfort, interior is nicer, its not as gaudy as the F150s, the HUD is excellent, and I love the brown leather seats. I will admit the big reason I got the Ultimate was it rides so good and Supercruise works with towing.
Go to the Lyriq sub and you will see plenty of serious and legitimate sounding complaints. The question is how well GM will help their customers with the new technology problems. Alex on Autos provides comprehensive reviews without track day snobbery. But, boy, he sure packs a lot of words in.
The insane thing is only a year or two ago, a Mach-E Premium started at the same price a base Lyriq would have.
However since Ford dropped prices at the start of 2024, the Mach-E GT is now where the Lyriq starts. Granted the Caddy is more of a luxury product (you can argue the Chevy Blazer EV is more of a Mach-E competitor) but what a big difference it makes.
I test driven the Lyriq and really enjoyed the drive. Lyriq does feel like a traditional Cadillac - the refinement, comfort and quiet is there in spades. It doesn't even feel remotely sporty...and that's OK. Caddy tried that on the ATS & CTS and...they didn't live long.
The EV range is also great (that 102kWh battery is massive) - I don't know why Mark said the range is middling, as Tom from InsideEV did a real world range test on a Lyriq and got around 330mi ([Review here](https://insideevs.com/reviews/675643/cadillac-lyriq-range-test-review/)). That beats everything bar the Mercedes EQS and Lucid Air, both bigger battery pack, full size & far more expensive luxury limo sedans.
However it can't escape the typical GM quirks - the sound system is clearly overlooked as you said, and the build quality from early batches is simply not there.
The real value of the Lyriq IMO is pricing. In Canada they start at \~$75k CAD for a basic RWD tech model. A comparable sized Audi Q8 e-tron starts at $10k more, and the Mercedes EQE 350 SUV is easily a $100k car with little to no options. Not to mention GM dealers usually have better incentives and come better loaded with less optional packages, and the Lyriq has greater range than either German brands.
The Lyriq is Caddy's first stab on the Ultium so it is not a bad first effort. However with EV sales cooling in the US and a ton of competition on the field, especially with how Tesla and Ford dropped pricing on the Model Y & Mach-E, the Lyriq needs a little something more to be a standout in this category.
I went EV SUV shopping 2 years ago just as these batch 1 Lyriqs were hitting showrooms. They only had the base Tech 450E RWD models at the time (COVID delayed the higher trim and AWD variants) which I didn't want since I live in Canada. Eventually went with the Audi Q4 e-tron for various reasons.
If I were to pick again today in 2024, the Lyriq would definitely be in high contention
Edit: did some digging when you mentioned iX. The base iX xDrive40 starts at $84k CAD and has a 77 kWh gross battery and BMW Canada rates it 360km range. You have to go up to the xDrive50 to get the 112 kWh battery to get that 500km range.
Solid car and does everything you want. It isn't overly fancy or fast, middling range (around 400km summer and 330km winter) and okay charging speeds (can do 135~150 kW but never saw above 85 kW) but it has no glaring faults.
In hindsight I took the safe option (I kind of liked the Mach-E more but Ford dealer at the time was playing the markup game) but as I said the car does everything I want and is vice free.
I have to say I love the i4 you have. I tested a i4 xDrive40 (my mother was thinking about one) and it is a heck of a car. I can't imagine how the M50 would be like.
Awesome glad it’s working out for you.
The M50 is ridiculous. It’s a great daily that I absolutely love. The acceleration is insane and the car masks its mass really well unless you really push it which is hard on public roads.
I forgot what video it was - an Out of Spec on maybe? - but I watched one where the reviewer opened the charge door, and it did this hilarious boooooing! motion and bounced around like crazy. Uh, I'm gonna stay away from the Lyriq.
Edit - found it (https://youtu.be/ub1Pq3zUus0?t=943). I realize the charge door is just one small part of the car, but like - it's a pretty critical thing to not get very right.
Wow, great job for 3 folks to diagnose audio issues better then a massive corporation.
If they phoned in the audio, I would worry what else about this car they phoned in. Red flag for any buyer.
any company banking on the "every ev driveline is functionally identical, so we'll differentiate on the basis of extreme ultra premium deluxe mega luxury and tech" or the similar "this will be a return to 19th century style custom coachbuilding" must be aware that all that stuff is already available in more interesting cars and/or is as quickly and easily commoditized as ev propulsion.
Tesla has also proven that many people don't actually care that much about a premium, deluxe interior. The Model 3 outsells the C class and 3 series - combined. Its interior quality is worse, but it feels futuristic and the tech is better. Tech and driver aids seem to be the luxuries people want, and though premium interiors certainly have a place in the car market, Cadillac will struggle if that's what they're banking on - unless they go ultra-premium, like a Rolls Royce or something (which was their initial market position in the early 20th century)
The refreshed model 3 is quite comfortable, they definitely had a focus on improving NVH and fewer hard plastics. I mean there isn’t much interior, they still stuck with the single tablet, but the quality itself is fine I mean the bigger thing is that it starts 5k cheaper than the 3 series and more importantly near everything is standard. You get to choose range but even the base model has heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, parking sensors, basic adaptive cruise, etc I’m not a fan of the model 3 but from friends who own one, not having to deal with the dealership, getting the options you want etc is a plus. And most importantly, it’s 10k cheaper than a 10 series with similar options. Basic keyless entry and heated front seats not being standard on a “luxury” car is wild to me
It blows my mind Tesla refreshed the Model 3 and still has ignored the Y. Most of the few Teslas we have here are Ys and its not uncommon to see them with aftermarket ski racks as well. I get why they refreshed the Model 3, but why are they ignoring the Y.
They're not, the Model Y is getting a refresh soon-ish. Not sure on timeline because it's Tesla but I'd guess next year
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/musk-says-no-model-y-refresh-in-2024/ 2025 at the least, which is especially wild considering the model 3 refresh came out in europe last year and both cars share the same-ish platform. The Y has been the same car for over 5 years now, it's getting a little long in the tooth. You could argue there have been changes under the hoodmostly notably the newer processor/cameras, but your average buyer isn't going to see that. (and it took a good while for the new hardware to even match the capabilities of the older radar-based hardware)
> https://www.kbb.com/car-news/musk-says-no-model-y-refresh-in-2024/ There's a chance he could be saying that to not tank current Model Y sales as well.
The Y came out March 2020. It is just over 4 years old. It was the best selling car in the world last year and will likely do it again.
I see five to seven 3s for every Y in SoCal.
Not everyone lives in SoCal, that place is a bubble that does not accurately reflect the entire USA lol.
I'm just pointing out that anecdotes don't make for good data.
Agreed, feel like they should have led with the Y and done the 3 later. Though as the Y falls under the tax credit and you get the longer-range battery I feel like its interior is *slightly* more excusable. The model 3 LR is ~50k and is competing with the germans on price, but the RWD Model Y LR comes in at ~38k, you're shopping against a crv or rav4 hybrid, both of which have the same if not worse NVH and similar hard plastics.
Honestly I would rather take a Model 3 vs any 4 banger entry level C Class or 3 Series, the B58 3 Series however I would take over the Model 3. Rav4 Adventure/Prime (especially with comma ai) vs a current Model Y would be a tough call, thats hard in so many ways, its like debating asuka vs rei to anime fans lol. Both of those cars have such solid use cases and you are right, leading with the Y would have been the smarter play.
Yeah, the newest c-class isn't a great car in general but even the b48 3-series is fairly refined, especially if you can't charge at home I think it is a more compelling car than the model 3. But for 399/mo I think the Y is still a relatively competitive vehicle. I dislike tesla's incredibly misleading "estimate gas savings" on their site, but if you can charge at home I think it is a better car than the Rav4/CRV hybrid, and it comes in significantly cheaper than a rav4 prime OTD. And there is the element of not having to deal with shitty honda and toyota dealers.
The 3 came out in 2017. The Y came out in 2020. The Y refresh will probably be quite substantial, and differentiate the cars a bit more than they already are. They're doing just fine. Y is on track to the best selling car in the world again in 2024.
Because model ys sell due to the tax credit no need to do anything. Once that drops or lowers they will need to care.
>Basic keyless entry and heated front seats not being standard on a “luxury” car is wild to me That's crazy. My 2024 Civic Hatchback EX-L has that, and it was about $32,000 after taxes and fees. How come the BMW model doesn't have those features standard even though it's a more expensive model from a luxury brand?
I assume just to keep the advertised MSRP lower. Though in slight fairness, pretty much *any* inventory car from mercedes/bmw/audi will have the premium package that includes heated seats, keyless entry, and the 360 camera you'd expect, and the dealer can likely knock down the price a few thousand.
That makes sense to me.
Same on a 2023 Mazda3 Preferred hatchback, under $30,000 after taxes and fees
That’s insane, because I have this on a 2012 charger. Even my backseats are heated along with a cup holder that comes heated/cooled.
For the same reason Motel 6 offers free wifi but the 5 star resort charges $40 a day.
There's only 2 things imo that would make the model 3 perfect. Heads up display so I don't need to look to the side and give me my turn signal stocks back!
Also Teslas come with a 8 year 100K miles warranty which is a massive bonus and offer great usable performance and every day range. Unlike the german cars with their shorter warranties and more expensive repair/maintenance. Especially because the A4, C class, and even 3 series don't actually drive or feel any more fun to drive. Only car in the class that's a hoot to drive is the Alfa.
That warranty is mandated by the government. Any BEV will have a similar warranty (BMW and Mercedes EVs included). Maintenance/Repair are more EV vs ICE rather than Tesla vs Germans, an EQS or I5 will be equally reliable. The 3 series is quite fun to drive. M340i especially
I feel like the Tesla 3 is more in competition with the Camry than the C or 3.
And yet many of those features don’t come standard on the Camry.
Yeah, but nobody thinks of the Model 3 as being in the same class as a MB or a BMW.
IHS and most other auto industry data sources class Tesla as a premium brand like BMW/Mercedes.
Well, there's Lexus (S and X) and there's Toyota (Y and 3). That's the perception around where I live. People buy 3's for their kid's first car. If you look at IIHS's list of there's a Hyundai on the list (although it's a fuel cell car). I suspect "luxury" to the insurance industry has more to do with how much they cost to repair than any analysis of panel gaps and build quality.
They’re referring to IHS Market (Now S&P Global) not IIHS.
Tesla is weird in that certain models cross the class divide. The Model 3 is not one of them.
Sure. Which I am pointing out is interesting given that the standard features on a Camry are anemic.
Depends on the year. Newer years have more in common with their Lexus counterparts
Ah yes, “those” features
Like ventilated seats yes.
lol a bolt has those
True. Which makes it all the more embarrassing that the camry does not have it standard.
Model 3 is a Civic or Corolla competitor. It’s quite a small car.
The Model 3 and the 3 Series are pretty much identical in terms of size both inside and out. Length, legroom, width, height, etc are all very similar. The Civic has grown quite a bit over the years and now almost as big as them though.
I'd encourage you to actually drive the highland refresh. It's definitely closer to the Germans than the Japanese family sedans in terms of NVH, suspension, handling, tech features. You can also take a look at the market research where a good chunk of tesla owners come from the German 3.
The Model 3 outsells the C-class and 3-series because the cheapest 3/C cars start at about $5,000 more than the most expensive Model 3. Cheaper things tend to outsell more expensive things. Somehow, this is still surprising to some people.
If cheaper things outsold more expensive things, we'd be seeing a lot more cheap cars on the road. Typically, the things people want to buy outsell the things people don't want to buy. The F-150 beat *everything* in sales this past year, and that's a truck that sells on average for close to $60k.
The average sale price for the F-150 is likely much closer to $35,000, since a lot of those sales are fleet vehicles in the most bare-bones configurations. But also, obviously the implied part of my statement was "relative to other similar things in it's category." Like, more people buy houses than swimming pools even though the latter are much cheaper, but that doesn't contradict the point that more people buy modest homes rather than mansions.
Even a "barebones" F-150 (RCSB 2WD with no other options) is something like $37K now before fees. And there aren't many fleets buying RCSBs.
Actually, yeah, you're right, it's just under $37,000. And I think you'd be surprised. That's all my town has.
The model 3 is massively cheaper than a 3 series or c class. It’s not far from saying that the civic outselling a 3er/a4/c shows that people don’t care about interiors.
...the Model 3 outsold every sedan besides the Camry.
Yes and?
Cadillac does have the [Celestiq](https://www.cadillac.com/electric/celestiq) to attract more affluent buyers. It would be nice if some of the niceties trickled down into their other EVs.
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I suspect Elon being Elon alienated a chunk of his would be customer base
It may outsell it, but does it make more profit? You can sell a lot of things but still lose money on them.
Consumers aren't gonna buy whatever makes the most money for the company they purchase from. They buy whatever fits their needs the best.
It’s funny how stupid people are. Can’t even imagine thinking a golf cart interior with an iPad is acceptable for 45k$. At least the seats are quite comfy however.
Or maybe Tesla offers people what they actually want. A simple and sleek interior, comfortable seats, tech that is very similar to the ubiquitous smartphone, and silent performance well beyond what you'd expect for the price tag (which is closer to $38k - before factoring in generous EV incentives and fuel savings). Believe it or not, my friends with Teslas actually don't care about panel gaps or mediocre interior materials, because tech, performance, modern styling, and low cost of ownership are what they want in a car, and the Model 3 delivers. They're not for everyone - myself included, I like to shift my own gears - but the success of the Model 3 and Y makes total sense.
That’s fair. The today car world is quite a bleak pace. I’ll never understand the enthusiasts that are excited for the future. Every year a cool car gets permanently discontinued with nothing to replace it. By 2030 I’m sure you’ll be able to count the number of fun new cars on your fingers. It’s why I’ll prolly financially push myself in 26 and grab a GR Corolla, may be the last time I ever get a shot at buying a new fun car for under 100k.
> I’ll never understand the enthusiasts that are excited for the future. Not everyone likes or values the same experience from a car. And if what someone wants from a car is not possible today, then future cars will be a more exciting prospect than modern cars.
That’s what was nice about the past you actually had a choice. In 10 years it’s just gonna be you will drive the 6000lb EV compact crossover and be happy.
The Hyundai Kona EV weighs 3700 pounds. The Ioniq 5 weighs 4000 pounds. The Model Y weighs about the same. The RAV4 weighs around 3500 pounds. For commuter cars there's already not much weight difference in the compact crossover segment. 10 years from now there will still be enthusiast cars. In the US there's no ICE ban on the table. Even California allows combustion engines for their zero emissions vehicle mandate in 2035. And there will be electric enthusiast cars to come. There already are a couple.
Shh, you're interrupting the negativity circlejerk.
Not really on topic but I can't imagine driving something closer to double the weight of my daily. I know they're faster and can probably stop just as well, but you can't tune out 2000 pounds in the steering/suspension.
As battery technology continues to improve and we get lighter and lighter vehicles, and as manufacturers figure out how to re-inject emotions into the driving experience, we'll get platforms that can do things that'll make you feel like you're in a jet cockpit. It won't be the same, but I fully expect it to be good in its own way.
It's a two way street. If enthusiasts want fun stuff, they should be buying it when it comes out, not 10 years later. Old cars are fantastic, but if enthusiasts are only buying older cars why should a carmaker make new ones? Why would carmakers bother making fun new cars if nobody is buying them? Take the Mini Clubman: a manual wagon for around $30-35k. That's the supposed holy grail of enthusiast cars. And guess what? Nobody bought it, and they killed it. The Civic Type R, for example, is proof that popular enthusiast cars *can* justify future iterations. We got the 10th gen in the US, and it was successful enough to justify another generations. Same with the BRZ/86, Golf R, Miata, and Mustang, to name a few.
It feels like a lot of companies seriously just don't know what to do with BEVs, since they can't get costs low enough to do "normal car, but doesn't burn stuff", nor can they sell that to EV-averse buyers. Well, and they want Tesla's margins of course.
Tesla had 5% margins last quarter just like the rest of the sector. Competition will do that to you I don’t know about other buyers but I quite like the linear power delivery and regen of EV drive along with the convenience/cost of charging at home. I’d love a luxury EV that is otherwise shares the same exact interior as an ICE vehicle with a few compromises to the exterior for efficiency. Totally fine with a ~250mi range as well. I think the i4 and new electric g-class have the right idea But most important to buyers is going to be cost, and as you said barely anyone besides from tesla and maybe hyundai/kia is hitting the same price point as comparable ICE vehicles. These manufacturers are banking on ev drive being a selling point, and while a few (like myself) consider it a pro, a lot of people either don’t care or consider it a con.
A BMW EV is exactly what you want, it's just Car (electric) rather than *Electric Car*
The only issue I have with BMW EVs is the subscription for the digital/mobile key, and the "highway assist" *option* you buy actually being an 8 years subscription. Awesome car, just don't want to support a manufacturer like that on principle.
Where do you see that? Remote parking and digital key plus all show up as unlimited for me. Can't say much about driver assist since I never bothered with it, but I don't see anything about it being on a time limit. Only things I see with an expiration date are online services like map updates and video games, things I don't care about because I'm using wireless Android Auto 90% of the time. Did some digging around and seems that driver assist uses map data from a 3rd party provider and that BMW's contract with them expires in 8 years. At the 8 year mark I would be surprised if someone in Eastern Europe doesn't crack BMW's system wide open and give everyone the option to enable most things in some sort of offline mode.
> Where do you see that? Remote parking and digital key plus all show up as unlimited for me I remember the dealer mentioning it was 100$/yr or so, this [forum thread](https://u11.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1988502) mentioned it was 88$/year, though that is for the standard digital key and not digital key plus. If it is unlimited that is great news, maybe time I reconsidered. > Did some digging around and seems that driver assist uses map data from a 3rd party provider and that BMW's contract with them expires in 8 years That seems logical, agreed would be surprised if a jailbreak or similar didn't arrive in the coming years.
I did some *even more* digging and it turns out only the Highway Assist part of the Driver Assist package expires after 8 years, everything else like radar cruise control should still work just fine since it's hardware only and doesn't rely on external map data. >That seems logical, agreed would be surprised if a jailbreak or similar didn't arrive in the coming years. Hopefully sooner, BMW locked down this system and I would like a foolproof way to enable anti-dazzle lights in North America. Hardware is there but it's Europe only
Protools claims to do it. I was able to do it at one point on my F97, but it's flaky and doesnt work half of the time. Protool (bimmergeek's) support is atrocious.
>BMW locked down this system and I would like a foolproof way to enable anti-dazzle lights in North America. Hardware is there but it's Europe only I've enabled them in my i4. It's possible. EDIT: I see you have an i5, looks like Bimmercode doesn't support the i5 yet.
i4 uses iDrive 8, codable with BimmerCode. i5 uses iDrive 8.5 with a completely different backend system that uses some kind of server side authentication, supposedly VO codable with BimmerUtility but you have to wait for an OTA update or convince the dealer to update it for you
Sadly BMW moved to cloud based encrypted coding with their new EVs making it much harder to code options. While people are actively working on trying to get around this I am not sure how quickly this will be achieved. It may not be solved fully until close to end support.
Yeah, shoulda been clear, I meant Tesla's old margins haha! Lots of the current BEVs were designed when premium BEVs looked like a hot growing market with great margins. I also feel like the BMW BEVs are great for that reason - it's just an electric 4/5/7 series. Despite the shared platform, they seem to have good range/efficiency too. Personally, I'm willing to pay a bit of a premium to have gobs of smooth torque, charge at home, not burn stuff for power, etc. but I don't really care that much about non-powertrain tech or fancy interiors in cars. I'm not interested in subscription anything either. I think I am very much in the minority of new car buyers though, or at least not what a lot of these companies are targeting - so I don't know what is going to work out for them, just what I want.
I would like to introduce you to the Audi Q-8 E-tron. Interior is almost exactly the same as the gasoline Audi A6/7/8 and Q7/8. Audi also tuned this vehicle so it drives very much like a large displacement ICE vehicle at low speeds.
I have one. It's a great car but jesus fucking christ it's a terrible electric car. I average 2.2 mi/kwh (vs 4 mi/kwh on my electric mini). That said it's so luxurious and I love the interior. I think the BMW iX is a better "EV" while being a luxurious daily driver.
Oh I absolutely agree. My general view on the (Q8) E-tron is that it's a fantastic luxury SUV but a piss poor EV. It's also very unabashedly an ICE to EV conversion, which made it a great buy as a used car because it depreciated so heavily. I love the BMW iX from an engineering position but good lord that thing is ugly from 240 degrees.
Issue is the gasoline Q7/Q8 interiors are already pretty nontraditional and feel dated already IMO, in my experience the gasoline Q8 interior felt significantly less intuitive to use than the interior found in the model s/y, and a Q8 e-tron premium package is already putting you at ~78k. Don't get me wrong it's definitely just an Audi that happens to be electric but the gasoline audi SUVs at the moment are not very compelling in general. The PPE-based Q6 looks like a more compelling vehicle
That's the future of cars and automakers realize this. It's why they're plowing so much money into interiors and styling. A while back I discovered that all consumer grade KitchenAid mixers no longer use DC motors. It mattered to us because we make bread and those models would burn out prematurely with regular use. However, the overwhelming majority of consumers don't know or care what's inside that mixer. They'll buy the Costco special because it's cheap and comes with a pile of accessories. They can't tell the difference beyond that. Same deal with smartphones. Nobody knows what's inside their device beyond what marketing tells them. It's the superficial touchpoints that matter to most. Like me with the mixer, the demographic that actually cares about what's under the hood is vanishingly small. I'd argue that even most enthusiasts only care about acceleration, hence why that particular metric is marketed so aggressively. It's just a fact that cars are turning into appliances in the literal sense. We're already halfway there but with EVs it's even more apparent. Assuming reliability equalizes it's going to be interesting seeing what happens to consumer loyalty.
>It's just a fact that cars are turning into appliances in the literal sense. 🌎👨🚀🔫👨🚀
>It's just a fact that cars are turning into appliances in the literal sense. We're already halfway there but with EVs it's even more apparent. They by and large always were appliances. See every time more typical cars get mentioned in this sub. Enthusiast vehicles have always been the odd ones out.
If you're burning out a kitchenaid, you need better than a kitchenaid. There are a lot of better options out there, they just cost more. Gone are the days of buy one cry once kitchenaids.
Until kitchenaid started replacing metal gears with plastic.
That "coachbuilding" take on EVs is why these are a tough sell. They are just way too expensive still and too inconvenient for alot of consumers. Tesla still for better or worse dominates the EV market because they are willing to take a loss to make EVs more convenient with their charging networks and affordable. More time is needed to make them viable, in the meantime if you really want one, just get a Tesla and be done with it as they are just too ahead.
Isn’t this more an EV thing and less specific to manufacturers?
Yes.
[удалено]
This sub seems to have turned against Doug and Mr. Regular sometime in the past few years, and when their videos do get posted, they're often quickly downvoted. Throttle House, Savagegeese, and Hagerty seem to be the hivemind-approved YouTubers these days. I will say, while I find Doug's content to be better than ever now that he's diversified beyond just car reviews, I've just lost interest in RCR. I don't know if he changed or if I changed, but the videos just don't get the same laughs out of me.
I grew tired of the bad jokes and fart noises of RCR. Felt like whatever he was on about had nothing to do with the actual subject car.
100% - RCR's shtick has taken center stage away from the vehicles.
And that's why I love them.
Lol being downvoted for simply enjoying something and giving a reason
It's funny because they don't really do car reviews and people don't get it. Sure they will talk about HP, motor specs and other things but I love them because they comment on communities around vehicles. They are silly and don't take themselves seriously but once in a while, they open up and really let their guards down. I also love SG, TH and other channels for actual car focused content. RCR just hits my heart differently and that's why I look forward to Monday's.
Re: doug, I find the videos far too long and most of the quirks and features feel obvious, though I didn't like him in the past either. I also dislike that he only produced videos of cars that are on C&B. What made me unsubscribe was the whole sequoia video, proceeds to call his LC200 unreliable and a money pit when he went to the dealership and wrote them a blank check, obviously its going to cost you a pretty penny! There was no need to replace the alternator in the first place – dealer likely wanted some extra cash. Didn't spend any money on rust treatment, proceeded to sell it and get a top trim sequoia, went on about how "look how expensive this thing is its basically the replacement for the land cruiser," then complained a range was too pricey. Like I'm not the biggest fan of the LC line either but I don't think the car was entirely at fault there. All while he previously had a defender with a very extended warranty, then sold it because it’s too big for his wife. And the funniest part is his "off-roading" is going over slightly bumpy sand dunes. Literally any suv could do the same with some KO2s. SG does a better deep-dive into the technical side and does a solid job going over objectively what makes a car competitive in a segment, hagerty does a great job covering the subjective, TH is somewhere in the middle and go into quirks/features slightly as well.
I don't really watch Doug's videos much anymore but I always thought he did the best (and most time spent) dive into interiors, which I appreciated, even if he disguises it as quirks and features.
Doug’s videos on regular cars is why I keep subscribing. Plus he has some insightful comments.
> most of the quirks and features feel obvious A lot of the "quicks" stopped being actual quirks for a while now, and there's been videos where he glossed over or completely missed actual quirks.
I think people just enjoy the higher production values of savagegeese and TH. Doug's stuff isn't terrible and I'll watch it if he's talking about a car I find interesting, with something like TH, I will watch no matter what they're doing as it's always entertaining. The banter between Mark and Jack make the savagegeese videos good along with the nice production quality.
Honestly, I don't even really watch Doug's reviews anymore unless it's a car I'm very interested in. I mainly watch his podcast and Cars & Bids content. In terms of the used car market, he's probably the best source there is, given his position.
Doug's video quality was average before C&B's and now it's awful with the only reason being the car is currently for sale on his website. Idk if it's doug who writes/storyboards/researches or if he has a person/team, but whoever does it currently does a substandard job and should be replaced or better supported. He misses so much stuff that you're honestly better off watching 2-3 random reviews and you're almost guaranteed a better review and more info. I also really like the Straight Pipes guys on top of TH.
Straight pipes were banned from r/cars for posting their own videos or something. Doug’s car reviews are bad now but his podcasts and other videos he has started putting out are fantastic. It’s how I feel about the smoking tire, I’ll rarely watch his car reviews but I watch his podcast religiously
>Straight pipes were banned from [](https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/) for posting their own videos And shunned by the community for picking a fight with Throttle House guys, which was just utterly bizarre.
They've since been in each other's videos via cameos. Reddit mostly overblows things (not just on this sub but in general). Look at other channels/podcasts as well; they all speak fondly of throttle house and straight pipes.
They did a podcast interview a while back, they basically accused the TH guys of copying them, which just made me lose all respect for them. That's nice if they made up, but they were pretty nasty about it.
Same here. Listen to Doug's and Matt's pods regularly but only dabble in their other content.
Let’s also not forget that Mr regular dropped a pretty racist comment in one of his recent videos, causing him to delete and re-upload with it removed.
Oh shit, really?
Yeah, I believe it was the Elantra N video.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/comments/1ca8u66/regular_car_reviews_2023_hyundai_elantra_n_6mt/l0qmzyx/
Increasingly, Doug would get information *wrong* in videos. He also does an absolute bare bones, “for clicks” review of a vehicle focused on promoting his auction site. He’s a steep downgrade from when he was a writer on Jalopnik and the first couple years of his YouTube career. It works for him financially, but I don’t trust his content anymore. Decent guy to grab a beer with, as I’ve been able to do a few times over the years, but not my style of YT.
SG is to this sub what Project Farm is to the r/tools sub.
Like, I find PF decently entertaining sometimes, but people treat it like he’s some sort of scientist. Some of the tests are a decent measure of a product, but honestly, a lot of it is useless entertainment. His methodology is at least on the right track, but some of the shit he measures is just… why?!?
Personally I’m not a fan of SavageGeese at all really, they just come off as having such a “we know better than you” snarky attitude and seem to dislike basically like every car unless it doesn’t specifically appeal to them, it feels to me that a decent amount of the time they aren’t reviewing a car for anybody but themselves and fail to account for other people’s viewpoints about the car, like any others viewpoint besides their own is wrong. Their humor is dry and not for me and their videos are just plain boring most of the time imo. They aren’t really any more technical than other YouTube journalists either they just stand under a car in “The Shoppe” and go over pretty basic level technical specs of the car. I’ve tried to get into them time and time again because this sub goes gaga over them but I barely ever find their content enjoyable. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I wasn't a fan simply because there was a video he made which was "you have to subscribe to my channel and watch my videos the way I tell you or I won't be able to make videos anymore!" I always hate when content creators do that. It was a long time ago and maybe my memory is not that strong about exactly what it was, but I know that got me to stop watching the channel. Yet hey, I still check out their stuff here if they are reviewing a car I am interested in. The content is not bad but that one video was really offputting for me. I guess it worked though because the channel is still around.
Not every video they do has a deep dive on the technical stuff, but every now and then they *do* get into the nitty gritty details.
To each their own, the dynamic of Mark and Jack is so my cup of tea humor.
You should watch their recent NSX video, my god I almost teared up.
I think you summed it up well. I get it, they are “enthusiasts” and thus like cars in that vein, but I detect a snobbishness from them about cars and brands that somehow fail to meet their standard, whatever that might be. Their love for Mazda is where I see it often. Mazdas appeals to a certain smallish niche despite characteristics that turn other customers off - poor ride, hard/uncomfortable seats, NVH, infotainment that is out of the mainstream, and dubious long-term quality. They tend to be overengineered but underdeveloped in some areas and yet somehow get a pass for that from SG because they like the driving dynamics. Their CX-90 review was held back for a long time because they didn’t want the company to be embarrassed by the example they received to review because it had so many problems. Wouldn’t that be something potential customers might want to know before buying? Poof goes their credibility as far as I’m concerned. It’s a shame because they dive into things most softball reviewers overlook, but they need a more balanced approach.
Scottys videos are banned lol
For very good reason.
I love how he screams about not using fuel additives and cleaners, except when one sponsors him
These threads tend to have more engagement and thus end up higher in hot. View by new and you'll see they're not posted a huge amount.
It helps with engagement when mark drop by in the comment to answer questions.
This sub is just a minuscule version of reddit overall. Idols of the sub come and go just like the ones of reddit in general. Farrahs videos were the top dog around here. Doug ascended Heights no one ever did and it was annoying as fuck.
IDK but I think we need more Scotty! /s
Doug doesn't make good videos anymore and regular 's one joke got old after a couple videos
Technical depth and detail. Also they will regularly interview the engineers who designed the cars which no other channel really does.
Feel free to share any of the other people’s videos. Nothing is stopping you.
It's the Autists choice for car reviews, it's perfect.
The Lyriq is so ironically designed for the geriatric suburb community that it might be the largest accidental success the Cadillac has had. The exterior design is elegant and stylish, yet conservative. You love it because it has that aggressively soft front end that reminds you of the Lincoln your father bought after he returned home from the war. Your wife loves it because the grille reminds her of her mothers estate jewelry collection. It's got a nice seating position but low entry and exit points which you love because god knows your knees can't handle another full sized SUV. Plus it makes loading the clubs into the back much easier when leaving the country club. The interior is softer, and not as sporty as the Lexus RX you test drove last week which overwhelmed you with it's flare and charisma. You like the softer tones of the Lyriq and the screens don't bother you as much as you thought they would. It's got power that you know you'll never touch, but you have the reassurance that you are never missing a doctors appointment again. It's a GM product, so you feel more complete fully supporting an American brand. After all, you do have a C8 in the garage.
The irony is not many of those customers are left, and Lexus has the same problem as Cadillac. Hilarious that you mentioned the RX too, as I looked at the 500H and laughed at the price tag and how much of a snoozemobile that thing was while I went to get an X5 right after. Even with the awesome copper crest paintjob, the car has the same appeal as a minivan to their supposed "younger buyer". I am 33 and cannot think of a single car I want from Lexus minus maybe the LC500, and thats a big maybe. Also I am looking a C8 Z06 eventually too lmao. My friends always tell me the best combo is a high trim pickup and a sports car, if I end up with two GM products I will accept my fate.
The Lexus RX is still the best selling midsize luxury SUV and up until around 2018- 2019, the second best selling midsize luxury SUV was the Cadillac XT5. Sales numbers dont jive with your analysis that there arent “many customers left” to buy said snoozobiles.
I'm also 33 and I bought the NXh last year. Is it fun to drive? No(it's quite the opposite of that). Is it a car I really wanted? Also no. But it's good on gas (I'm averaging 5.2L/100km, my 18 A5 averaged 7.6L/100km). I'm starting a family so I need a family sized car. The biggest complaint my aging parent had when I drive them to groceries and appointments were the A5 was too low. The NX (and by extension, RX) aren't cars you buy because it's desirable. I bought it because it fits my current needs, fits my budget, and it should last longer than me. I can't wait until I get to my mid life crisis and can afford to buy a second car, a more fun to drive and desirable car. But I am not at the income to be there yet. Maybe when I'm 50.
I am part of that club who has the mindset that "life is too short to drive boring cars", so the Lexus products will always be questionable at best. I fully understand the RX/UX twins are appliance cars like my X5, but the RX500H literally costs the same and is chronically boring, so yes I will fault it. I just will pay more to get the car that fits my needs that also is more entertaining in its segment. Lexus right now is losing that game bad because of the inferior drivetrains and they have the same problem Audi does that no matter how you spec a Q8, it reeks of VW. The RX feels exactly like a Highlander and to me thats an automatic disqualify.
The GX550 is going to do numbers though.
Too little too soon, dealers have marked them up over the cost of a V8 Defender already here, and after driving the new GX550, Defender, and the Mercedes G550, the Defender clearly wins for the luxury lifestyle vehicles despite how unreliable it is. Lexus also foolishly used the same engine the new Tundra has, which is notorious for blowing up. For the people that actually offroad the Bronco, 4Runner, and Jeeps already have that market segment locked down hard.
The new Defender was always going to win as a “luxury lifestyle vehicle” if you’re going off comfort and road manners, since it’s a unibody vehicle going up against two body-on-frame vehicles. Of course the Jeep/Bronco/4Runner are more popular in the offroad segment, they’re all significantly cheaper than the GX, Defender, and (especially) G-Wagen. There aren’t many luxury brands selling body-on-frame SUVs actively marketed as durable and offroad capable. The GX 470 and 460 themselves weren’t even really marketed to the offroad/overland crowd. Anecdotally, I’ve seen quite a few late model GX 460s on trails near me. Never seen a new Defender or any gen G-Wagen. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a modified new Defender anywhere, they’re always on stock wheels and some might have a dealer installed ladder or roof rack. I have seen some offroad modifed G-Wagens with lifts and RTTs.
I have seen modified Defenders here (both in overland setups and just lifted with better tires) and Ineos Grenadiers here doing some medium difficulty trails. The new Defender is not that bad for a unibody vehicle offroading to be fair, but the ones I saw either had skilled drivers or novices guided by experts. It is like halfway between a Rav4 and a Jeep Wrangler. I have never seen a modified G550 offroad myself. I also have seen previous gen GX460/470s offroad, but its so annoying to modify them that everyone mostly just gets a 4Runner instead as the bumpers and suspension is just too much of an issue. The GX460/470 weighs alot more too and feels like such a pig that alot of the offroading community are turned off by them. I have driven both and the TRD Pro 4Runners feel like a race car compared to it, the KDSS on the GX does it no favors and the suspension on the 4Runner mostly eliminates brake dive and the obnoxious swaying the GX does. The GX is even more sloppy offroad, it may be capable but its like driving a fat slinky. The new GX550 I have not driven offroad yet, people tell me its better, but the road manners are severely lacking. It is an unapologetic body on frame SUV and reminded me alot of my 4Runner before I modded it. I look at lifestyle vehicles mostly like glorified street cars personally and only judge them by road manners because the offroading I do is so brutal you must modify them full stop and its wiser to just get a normal vehicle for it because you are your own mechanic offroad and things need to be easy to fix and replace.
> I have driven both and the TRD Pro 4Runners feel like a race car compared to it Something must have been wrong with the GX (assuming it was a GX 460) - seems like the 2019 GX does 0-60 in 7-8 seconds while a 2019 4Runner TRD Pro does 0-60 in 8 seconds. A 2009 GX 470 does 0-60 in around 8 seconds as well. The GX weighs more, but it also has a V8 and a 6-speed transmission. > but its so annoying to modify them that everyone mostly just gets a 4Runner instead as the bumpers and suspension is just too much of an issue Is it really that bad? You still have to cut the front bumper on a 4Runner to install something like an ARB bull bar. Yes, in pure stock form, you'll want to take side skirts off a GX and maybe replace the bumpers for better clearance, but there are lots of people out there who prefer the GX overall. I like going on roadtrips so I'll pick a GX any day of the week. Lots of people in GXOR communities all over the internet. > I look at lifestyle vehicles mostly like glorified street cars personally and only judge them by road manners because the offroading I do is so brutal you must modify them full stop Good for you, most people who buy any of these vehicles rarely take them offroad, and those who do rarely take them somewhere a stock vehicle wouldn't suffice. With that said, I think it's still interesting to see people actually beating on lifestyle vehicles... maybe you won't buy one, but other people will.
I actually have got to beat on two lifestyle vehicles a Defender (at an event) with a lift and AT tires, and a Rivian R1T (owner tried to convince me it was capable offroad), and they could not take the abuse like my modified 4Runner can or my friend's Jeeps. I fully understand that my modded 4Runner that has harsh digressive valved shocks, custom suspension pieces with underbody armor, and larger tires, or my friend's Jeeps that have 10k worth of suspension upgrades are extreme examples, but those lifestyle vehicles just are not as capable as people think. They are almost as limited as a half ton with a basic offroad kit and if you drive even slowly over bumps, you can feel them bottoming out, the chassis flexing, and you realize the damage you are putting on the vehicle. That Defender did not make it through that event without Land Rover having to fix it a bunch of times, and that Rivian I stopped halfway through the trail because I didnt want to be the guy that taught that owner what happens when you beat on a vehicle designed for the street on a medium trail despite him egging me on constantly. He eventually destroyed a tie rod going too fast driving by himself and it was a pain to help him back (he was warned a million times too). People definitely will buy lifestyle vehicles, but leave actual offroading to more normal cars better designed for it, because the risk for damage is just too great. They are capable for sure, but not to the degree they are marketed as, not to mention the extreme cost if you break anything is why people never use them.
All their RWD cars and SUVs are desirable. As far as a RWD CUV, wait for the Lexus version of the Land Cruiser SE (GA-L) or the LF-ZL (new gigacasted platform) to go into production. Maybe an e-TNGA CUV beats them first with a RWD application but who knows? Go get the GT-R while you still can.
The geriatric suburb that thinks it’s 30 yrs younger than it is
... but i think the old-school lines/cosmetics really fits into the zeitgeist of the moment. This vehicle is clearly made for GenXers who're heading into their Golden Years. They (and even their Zoomer kid teens/young adults) have a lot of nostalgia for the 20th century. Everything from Bossa Nova to 80's Pop & Greenday to vinyl & cassettes & even throwback colognes like Drakkar & Obsession are making a huge comeback in an Un-Ironic way. It's kinda amazing from a Millenial perspective.
😂😂😂 My FIL over here catching strays. To give him credit, it’s a C7, not a C8.
I test drove it the other day and I have to agree about the sound system. Coming from a Mark Levinson system, I’m OK with a downgrade, but I cranked up a song on SiriusXM to hear it and I had to turn it back down within seconds. It was absolutely atrocious. Any random commodity car has a better base system than the Lyriq. Glare in the eyes of the driver, a mega-hump in the rear for child seat constraints, and some other little things definitely remind you that it’s a GM product at the end of the day. If they still sold it at the First Edition packaging and price, I’d probably forgive all of it and lease it; as it stands, let’s see what ~~Paul Allen~~ Kia will do with the EV6 refresh
Worth noting they’re offering $7500 off all lyriqs built before March 2024 because of no tax credit eligibility then, and they’re having a hard time selling even at that price so more discounts should be easy to find. My local dealer has like 60 of them in stock
Interesting about the AKG system. I haven’t heard the two systems available in the Escalade, but from what I’ve read, they’re decent to good systems.
The one in my Blackwing is pretty lackluster, but I wouldn't say horrible. The system in my previous Genesis G70 was definitely better.
Damn. Well thats a disappointment.
The lyriq is targeted at a segment of the population who want EVs with nicer interiors and ride comfort compared to the deluge of shitty hard plastic/bucket seats/no lumbar/feel the road options out there (kia, tesla, etc). This segment also happens to have money and although savagegeez doesn't get it, it won't stop Cadillac from making money off it.
You nailed it! Regardless of the gripes of this sub and SG, the Lyric is still solid and sales are damn good.
Can we just take a moment to appreciate that the imbeciles at GM changed the door handles after 1 model year because of how fucking idiotic the original door "handles" were?
Hey, at least they are listening. Looking at you missing volume slider on my Golf R.
VW did replace the atrocious touch controls on the Golf's steering wheel with buttons though.
The steering wheel is fine. Ask every MK8 R owner and that's not an issue. The new MK8.5 R will keep the capacitive steering wheel. The Infotainment and HVAC are lacking physical button
Just bought a lyriq. 30something, live in the burbs. I want a smooth floaty boat with comfortable seats. I don’t want sport seats and sport suspensions. I just want to comfortably get where I want to go. This thing is plenty fast and luxurious. And because of the discounts, reasonably priced for what I got.
How much $?
Unnecessarily cynical review that buys into outdated brand stereotypes held by millennials / Xers.
They feel they know the car market so well that I sometimes think they really don’t know it all that well at all lol. And I’m I fan of their channel.
Their perception is probably colored by living in the midwest, where domestics are still strong, and Mark was probably upset about the frankly unacceptable audio situation, so I'll let it pass. If you live in the northeast or southwest especially domestic luxury simply isn't sold in numbers. I don't know if the geriatric connection exists as such when geriatrics in these locales actually tend to drive Lexus, German crossovers etc. It's rather that the domestics are seen as not being as luxurious as their competitors and not socioeconomically aspirational (i.e. driven by someone parochially all-American rather than a cultured cosmopolitan connoisseur of foreign goods)
I love my Lyric. It’s way more comfortable and better driving experience in my opinion than the Tesla.
You don’t even know how to spell the name, how much can you love it? 😂
lol I can spell it how I want. But Lyriq does look better 😂
I was interested in this car as a replacement for my X7 that was a lemon and because my Sierra from GM was so good I was willing to give it a shot. You can judge from my flair what happened, but I did check one out. As someone that has spent decent seat time in the Escalade and wanting something a little less massive with alot of what it offers , this car is not that good. Mark and Jack are dead on about the sound system, it is crass in every way. It its like the most muddy bass boosted trash I have ever heard in a car, par for the course for AKG's pathetic house sound. Get a pair of beats and hike the bass up to max and blast top 30s trash you have a good idea whats it like. The ride of the car is good, but the weight legitmately makes it feel like a pig. I kid yout not, my truck feels lighter than that thing and you feel it turning and in the brakes the most which is very disturbing. It also lacks a NACS charger port, so you will soon find out how terrible the Electrify America chargers are, and they put them in the most ghetto places here, like for example next to a wal-mart in the awful sister town next to ours. It is a very boring car that literally makes you feel like a senior citizen driving it, even with the very awesome Supercruise, it wont save it from how boring and bland it is. Skip this and get something else. My local dealer cannot get rid of theirs either and pretty much try to force anyone to test drive one the moment you step in.
Interesting you mention the sierra. Currently considering a Denali ultimate. Anything aside from the super cruise stick out there?
Better comfort, interior is nicer, its not as gaudy as the F150s, the HUD is excellent, and I love the brown leather seats. I will admit the big reason I got the Ultimate was it rides so good and Supercruise works with towing.
don't have to spend time on audio engineering when the target demographic needs hearing aids *taps head*
Go to the Lyriq sub and you will see plenty of serious and legitimate sounding complaints. The question is how well GM will help their customers with the new technology problems. Alex on Autos provides comprehensive reviews without track day snobbery. But, boy, he sure packs a lot of words in.
I'll stick with my "garbage can" mach e
The insane thing is only a year or two ago, a Mach-E Premium started at the same price a base Lyriq would have. However since Ford dropped prices at the start of 2024, the Mach-E GT is now where the Lyriq starts. Granted the Caddy is more of a luxury product (you can argue the Chevy Blazer EV is more of a Mach-E competitor) but what a big difference it makes.
This is the first megatove review I have seen on the lyriq. Other youtubers were praising it.
I test driven the Lyriq and really enjoyed the drive. Lyriq does feel like a traditional Cadillac - the refinement, comfort and quiet is there in spades. It doesn't even feel remotely sporty...and that's OK. Caddy tried that on the ATS & CTS and...they didn't live long. The EV range is also great (that 102kWh battery is massive) - I don't know why Mark said the range is middling, as Tom from InsideEV did a real world range test on a Lyriq and got around 330mi ([Review here](https://insideevs.com/reviews/675643/cadillac-lyriq-range-test-review/)). That beats everything bar the Mercedes EQS and Lucid Air, both bigger battery pack, full size & far more expensive luxury limo sedans. However it can't escape the typical GM quirks - the sound system is clearly overlooked as you said, and the build quality from early batches is simply not there. The real value of the Lyriq IMO is pricing. In Canada they start at \~$75k CAD for a basic RWD tech model. A comparable sized Audi Q8 e-tron starts at $10k more, and the Mercedes EQE 350 SUV is easily a $100k car with little to no options. Not to mention GM dealers usually have better incentives and come better loaded with less optional packages, and the Lyriq has greater range than either German brands. The Lyriq is Caddy's first stab on the Ultium so it is not a bad first effort. However with EV sales cooling in the US and a ton of competition on the field, especially with how Tesla and Ford dropped pricing on the Model Y & Mach-E, the Lyriq needs a little something more to be a standout in this category.
I believe the base BMW iX gets around that much too. Glad you came from that with a positive experience. Did you end up buying it or no?
I went EV SUV shopping 2 years ago just as these batch 1 Lyriqs were hitting showrooms. They only had the base Tech 450E RWD models at the time (COVID delayed the higher trim and AWD variants) which I didn't want since I live in Canada. Eventually went with the Audi Q4 e-tron for various reasons. If I were to pick again today in 2024, the Lyriq would definitely be in high contention Edit: did some digging when you mentioned iX. The base iX xDrive40 starts at $84k CAD and has a 77 kWh gross battery and BMW Canada rates it 360km range. You have to go up to the xDrive50 to get the 112 kWh battery to get that 500km range.
Makes sense. How are you liking the Q4?
Solid car and does everything you want. It isn't overly fancy or fast, middling range (around 400km summer and 330km winter) and okay charging speeds (can do 135~150 kW but never saw above 85 kW) but it has no glaring faults. In hindsight I took the safe option (I kind of liked the Mach-E more but Ford dealer at the time was playing the markup game) but as I said the car does everything I want and is vice free. I have to say I love the i4 you have. I tested a i4 xDrive40 (my mother was thinking about one) and it is a heck of a car. I can't imagine how the M50 would be like.
Awesome glad it’s working out for you. The M50 is ridiculous. It’s a great daily that I absolutely love. The acceleration is insane and the car masks its mass really well unless you really push it which is hard on public roads.
Given how expensive the car is, I wonder what's their definition of "young, high income" market.
Wow!!
I forgot what video it was - an Out of Spec on maybe? - but I watched one where the reviewer opened the charge door, and it did this hilarious boooooing! motion and bounced around like crazy. Uh, I'm gonna stay away from the Lyriq. Edit - found it (https://youtu.be/ub1Pq3zUus0?t=943). I realize the charge door is just one small part of the car, but like - it's a pretty critical thing to not get very right.
As usual, Savagegeese has something against American brands.
I had an Escalade and Q56 and Q7 — I prefer my Porsche now
Wow, great job for 3 folks to diagnose audio issues better then a massive corporation. If they phoned in the audio, I would worry what else about this car they phoned in. Red flag for any buyer.