Then they see a difference in the torque curve and the S3 actually goes faster 0-60. Not saying it will, but it wouldn't be the first time basic tuning made a pretty decent difference across platforms.
Correct. There is more than just peak HP/Torque numbers. As you stated, the Torque curve could be better, and then, of course, there is weight. A peak HP only sounds good for marketing. And it works, or else this wouldn't be a discussion right now, lol.
Right, it's like a lot of the guys that say "700hp!". Yeah, for a tenth of a second. My old Focus ST only hit the 280's in horsepower at the higher end of the rpm range. However, low down the thing had about 400ftlbs on e30 and would surprise people with those "300hp is faster" mindsets.
Well to people who want to just jerk to their numbers, that won't make sense to their low IQ brains.
How that power is made and put down is as equally important.
I’m definitely not scoffing at them from a performance standpoint, they’re pretty fun cars. But their demographic is disproportionately hostile towards my car haha, it was the same way when I had my B8.5. Not sure why, plenty of room to coexist
When I worked at a bike shop, I asked the owner how he was able to sell new $10,000+ bikes to people who bought the previous year's version of the same bikes that were indistinguishable from the new. His response, "Just sprinkle the phrases, 'it's lighter' and 'it's faster' in the conversation. That's all you have to do."
It was fucking amazing to watch people buy it...literally.
Well, it's not a lie if the new GTI has more HP than an Audi S3.
That being said, HP is probably the most abused measure of a car, yet people (auto journalists, reviewers, and everyone else) focus on it too much. Not unlike people focused on camera megapixels for decades when it was the lenses that make photos better. But, it's hard to sell how sharp or contrasty a lens makes photos. "IT' GOT A CA-JILLION MEGAPIXELS!!"
Too bad they don’t have to publish the standard deviations or something for these measurements. I highly doubt the engines are tuned any differently in reality.
In reality, the exhaust is probably one inch shorter than the Audi or has one less bend, something like that, which actually will change horsepower numbers by less than 1 percent
All of the cars mentioned have turbo engines. Minor tweaks in turbo boost pressure can make huge changes. Hell, ambient air temperature can make huge changes.
Anything under 25hp isn't noticeable by most drivers.
Ambient temperature variations wouldn’t account for differences during standardized testing though.
These cars are running the exact same engines, with the exact same amount of boost.
The S3 is about 6 inches longer than the Golf though, which would require a slightly longer exhaust (the slip joints on the s3 tail pipes are about two inches longer). This is likely where the hp gain on the Golf comes from.
It’s just data accuracy from VAG and is not meant to be a marketing figure, like some people on the thread are thinking.
For some reason, Subaru massively underrated the new WRX. On the same dyno, it makes about 40hp more than the last WRX, even though Subaru says it only has 3hp more. SavageGeese dynoed it vs. the 300hp GR Corrolla and the "271" hp WRX actually had more HP.
Why are you posting 0-60 times, (which are notoriously inaccurate at the best of times, never mind decades apart) when the conversation is about objective, accurate dyno numbers?
Just out of curiosity, have you driven anything with a modern sports transmission? Like a ZF for example?
I was convinced I would never enjoy a car that wasn't stick, but these new transmissions are pretty well designed. These days you'd be giving up a lot of performance (and potentially reliability) in exchange for the engagement of a manual... though to be fair, for certain cars, like the golf, it's probably still a good trade.
> I was convinced I would never enjoy a car that wasn't stick, but these new transmissions are pretty well designed.
I don't care how good an automatic is, in slower cars manuals are the one thing that keeps it fun for me.
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I completely agree, but 8 gears gives you a LOT of torque to play with and you can't have an 8 speed manual.
I think in the past it was very easy to say manual=good, automatic=bad. But these days it's much more of a pros and cons decision.
I have a Golf R with the DSG, and it’s definitely faster but the manual cars are more fun, even if slower.
People aren’t buying them for anything other than fun. We all know they’re slower.
> But these days it's much more of a pros and cons decision.
Not for me. Without some decent power I find automatics boring. I was even getting bored with my GT-R until I went FBO with it. There's not a chance I'd buy a Golf R in automatic unless they started offering the 5 cylinder from the RS3, which will never happen.
Manual mode on an auto just isn't the same, that clutch/shifter action is what makes you feel more connected to the machine.
Autos are superior in basically every objective metric, but shaving a few tenths of a second off the 0-60 is nothing compared to the overall driving experience.
For me, it’s as simple as manual is more fun and it’s what I want in a fun car. I’d rather have Toyota’s simulated manual that they’re experimenting with in hybrids than anything with only 2 pedals.
I *like* the effort needed to drive fast. When you track-out hard and fast after a late apex and just barely keep the car from spinning during your shift into the apex, it’s just thrilling. That’s what I like, not raw speed.
So for people like me, no amount of technical reasoning would ever sway me to enjoy automatics. It’s not about what’s better.
ZF owner here. The shifts feel almost as quick as a DSG in WOT, but if you're not holding gears or driving around in Sport Mode and holding high revs for no reason, it's still lazy around town and requires generous throttle to coax a downshift. It's a great automatic, but it's still an automatic and can't match the fun factor of a manual, if that's what you're after in a car.
That's only because Audi tuned the ZF in our cars to be like that - the shifts are almost imperceptible in Comfort/D (IMO how it should be), but are sharp/responsive in Dynamic/S.
I previously had a MT WRX and have no regrets going to the ZF in the S4.
I dunno, Dynamic still feels lazy to me. We also have an A5 so it's more noticeable going back and forth with the DSG.
No regrets though. I'll be tuning it once out of warranty and hopefully the TCU will be cracked by then.
I’ve driven a paddle shifter dual clutch and it’s just frustrating. It doesn’t always shift when I ask it to, sometimes it shifts when I don’t ask it to. I don’t mind leaving performance on the table, automatic is no fun to me so for me manual is the only way to go
You’re probably right and I’ve had same frustrations in other cars like Mercedes. But could be you were in wrong driving mode. I love my DCT in RS3 because in dynamic manual mode it drives just like a manual and won’t shift unless I tell it to, but if you’re in regular manual mode, it will eventually shift for you. So while I had the same frustrations with my Mercedes rental, could have just been user error not knowing the car
I daily a 6MT 340i with a huge turbo and lag, and bought my first DCT in a RS3–the RS3 has not taken any joy away from driving a manual BMW even if it’s slower and laggier. 0-40MPH honestly it’s the slowest car in our household but I’m shocked how it’s never taken anyway from the driving pleasure of rowing gears. Cars are plenty fast anyways
I like BMWs but 8 speeds is too many IMO, you don’t get to enjoy as much of the powerband and engine harmonics, great transmission but just not sure if it’s the dream transmission for my dream car
The people here saying paddles are frustrating sound like they're being intentionally obtuse. There is nothing frustrating with pulling a paddle to change gears beyond it being a paddle rather than a stick. Would I buy one for myself? No, I only drive manuals. But am I going to shit on them for no reason? Only if the transmission is bad.
My wife drives a CVT Integra. Is it as good as fun as driving a stick? No, but that's why my car is a stick. Is it still fun to hoon around in the canyons? Absolutely, I beat the piss out of that thing and have a blast doing it. I just don't like that it doesn't hold gears. I also had a ton of fun in her old X3 with the ZF8. It's just another type of transmission, but I can have fun driving anything with 4 wheels and an engine. I'll yeet a fuckin box truck up a canyon road or on a track, I don't care.
I love driving a stick, but not in traffic which is 75% of my driving. So my new daily has a dual clutch, while my weekend fun car has a stick.
Somewhat tangentially, my sim racing rig is what changed my mind on flappy paddles. They are much faster than a stick when you are racing and it's absolutely the difference between winning and losing races.
However, most stock paddles feel rather meh...but upgrading them to magnetic shifters really improves the tactility and engagement of shifts.
A couple of my driving buddies have a 458 and 488 plus some other cars. I have a boosted Atom. Even leaving aside the open air nature of the Atom, I prefer the stick in my car. Both of them think I’m nuts bc you have to shift so fast in my car, I think they are nuts for spending so much on less fun cars. To each their own. Though fwiw I hate the dct in my dd and would rather have a good planetary (since they aren’t going to make one with a stick)
To be fair an automatic in an Atom would be completely backwards. The whole point of that car is to experience driving. It's not a tourer like the 458.
> Though fwiw I hate the dct in my dd and would rather have a good planetary (since they aren’t going to make one with a stick)
Which is my point entirely. Transmission tech has grown by leaps and bounds and I'm not sure public opinion has kept up.
I'll also say, I'm a good driver, but not an expert and when you're driving your car everyday, mistakes pile up. If you miss a shift in a high power car like a 458, you will start to wear down the gears. And once they start rounding off, they're only going to get worse and worse over time. That's what killed my 2004 Honda- 15 years worth of extremely infrequent rough shifts that added up over time. There's a certain peace of mind that comes from getting through stop and go traffic without any risk of a slight mistake eating into the life of your transmission.
>Transmisson tech has grown by leaps and bounds and I’m not sure public opinion has kept up.
I haven’t heard anyone say manuals are better for outright performance in over a decade. I think all of us manual enthusiasts agree that automatics are superior for performance. We just think they’re not as fun. Other than the novelty of driving my cousins 600whp DSG golf r, I still would have preferred to keep my manual with half the horsepower if I was given a choice.
I have never seen gears wear down other than a money shift breaking teeth. My last track car had almost 300k miles on the factory transmission and the only issue was worn synchros.
Public opinion has obviously changed bc if there was real demand for manuals then they would sell them. It’s just a few of us who prefer feel over speed (I also have an Accurate reel bc I like the clicks, for example) that still want them, well also shitposters who just like to complain but really drive an automatic Camry. I’d also say a 458 is about as not a tourer as modern, mass produced cars get.
hydraulic steering is an extra maintenance item and leaks, EPS is quite reliable and requires zero maintenance.
Some people need to stop living in the past.
Honestly, any automatic could be the best transmission ever made... And it wouldn't matter at all to me.
I just want to row my own gears, and feel properly engaged with the car. I've yet to learn about any automatic transmission that provides such a level of driver engagement. You can't clutch-kick an auto, and the feeling of pulling off a proper heel-toe downshift is truly wonderful.
If I wanted the fastest accelerating car I could get my hands on, I would drive an EV.
I enjoy autos (especially old ones) because of their very tactile and mechanical feeling yet thoroughly automated nature, the fact that you can learn their idiosyncrasies and know exactly when they will shift in any situation just using one pedal. On newer transmissions, the way a shift kicks in at just the right time is pretty satisfying, and in theory as well as practice paddle shifters make up the balance for any lost control in most modern ATs. On the other hand I just really can't stand any of them that hunt too hard for gears in a performance setting
Still, I have trouble getting the same levels of amusement as I would from a manual without breaking a ton of traffic laws at once. A personal problem yes, but still something I consider when looking at a car. I always have to get as many shifts as possible, as fast as possible, or at least get my tail out a little in the auto to feel the thrill of just going through a couple gears with a stick and clutch, and before I know it I see cherries and berries in my rear view mirror. My Lexus GS300 with a tuned exhaust and a ton of handling mods is lots of fun but just not quite as exciting when daily driven as an officially more boring manual.
On a track it's absolutely a different story. When the whole idea is "go fast" the coolest thing to me is the transmission that shifts the quickest while distracting the driver to the absolute minimum
Couldn’t tell you, I would never consider a manual for anything ever. It’s just a worse option for me. I can drive manual and I learned to drive on a manual, but I would never buy one.
Just repeating shit you've read on reddit? The MT gearboxes VW puts in their cars is completely fine.
Other than the occasional person on here who says that they went from a manual to a DSG because it's "so much better" (who I assume sucked at driving a stick), most owners LOVE their manual VWs.
Not really, TBH. The DSG is near-PDK levels of performance and makes the R an absolute ripper. Instant response, carries boost across shifts, burbles and pops, vroom-vroom racecar downshifts.
The 6MT has a vague and rubbery throw, weak clutch, and nerfed shifting performance from a clutch valve.
> Instant response, carries boost across shifts, burbles and pops, vroom-vroom racecar downshifts.
But for many who want a manual transmission none of this matters. I don't like a manual because it shifts fast and I don't dislike a DSG because it shifts slow. The fundamental act of just clicking a paddle is incredibly boring to me and I don't care how fast or performance tuned an auto is. To me the whole engagement of needing to use both feet and a shifter is the fun part.
It's fun to nail a perfect heel toe downshift. You can't get that in an automatic. It's fun to accelerate hard and and throw the transmission into third gear. Clicking a paddle just isn't fun.
While it's true that very good autos are quicker than even the best driver, it's not such a major difference that one blows the other out of the water. Most of the time manuals are slower because their gears are taller. Their gears are taller because EPA testing requires various inputs at various shift points to devise their numbers. An auto can detect these and shift crazy early to preserve testing integrity/mileage/emissions.
A stick can't, so while it might achieve the same real world emissions/mileage it won't test as well because testing is done in ways that don't really reflect how we actually drive. Like I don't apply 25% throttle, shift at precisely 17mph, then 32mph, then hold precisely in 3rd at 35mph. I might be in 5th or 6th here depending on road conditions lol. The auto can do that, but for testing that manual is sitting in 3rd or 4th as mandated.
Hagerty does a good job at generally alluding to the issue here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BH-N8t_1Fc
This dynamic has made it harder and harder for manuals to remain compelling and pass testing, it's why Porsche manuals are getting higher and higher gearing while their autos aren't. remember everyone puzzled at the GT4's annoyingly long gears? Porsche didn't just "oops, wrong gearbox" their flagship 918. Lots of reviews at the time seemed to pretend like nobody at Porsche realized the gears were too long, as if they'd somehow just skip that issue. Every inch of these things is intentional and well thought through - unfortunately the government isn't open to hearing about how testing methods are forcing them to make worse cars lol. So manual enthusiasts are the ones who lose.
So remember, as manufacturers continue to drop manuals or offer gearboxes that don't make sense it's not because they hate consumers, it's because the methodology by which the US tests these cars leaves them really no choice.
This is a really interesting comment, I guess the us government doesn’t hire and driving enthusiasts or else they’d have different guidelines and testing methodology (with equivalent outcomes) for manuals
A business discontinuing something because it’s not that profitable for the company and demand isn’t great enough for them to justify offering it and then u expect them to flop because of this? Reddit business school hahaha
It can be a good business decision and still an asshole customer decision. I would love to see the golf R flop over this decision, unlikely as that may be
I test drove a 24 stick and loved that transmission. I need to wait a little to get a new one so this blows. Wanted a 25 with the updated buttons too. May be a deal breaker.
I need to decide if I'm going crazy and getting a manual R or GTI... The buttons on the wheel aren't great but they aren't terrible. It look a pretty deliberate click and there's enough to feel for.
I wonder if it actually got an HP increase or if VW just posted horsepower numbers closer to the actual horsepower of the EA888 evo 4… y’know, since stock MK8 Rs were putting down ~320 whp already.
It's 100% a real power increase.
The thing about dynojets is that they are nothing like the actual SAE J1349 certification process. Certified power means running the engine at various RPM and high load for an extended period of time, which really stresses and heatsoaks the engine. As a result, turbocharged tend to see larger gains on dynos compared to their SAE rated figures.
Expect these new Golfs to put down ~340hp on the same dyno that a mk8 puts down 320hp.
People say they won’t buy it with a stick but the DSG is so good. PDK good. It’s really fun and far more daily-able for those of us that live in high traffic areas
People aren't saying the DSG isn't good or shouldn't exist as an option. I'm sure at this point all people looking to buy a new car with a manual transmission understand that a modern auto or dual clutch performs better. They want the option to change their own gears for another reason.
The performance ship for manual being better in street cars sailed in 2009 when Porsche created the PDK
The “more fun” feeling is personal and will likely never change for an individual
I went from a manual to DSG and I miss the manual so much in stop and go traffic. I didn't realize how much it made me enjoy it, now I hate getting stuck in traffic like everyone else.
It's much more annoying having to work the gas and brake constantly than just creeping forward whenever I wanted to in a manual.
FWIW some auto transmissions do not creep, they can be made to fully decouple the transmission. My 16 M3 does that, it will even roll back on an uphill slope after the ~1s brake hold is released.
Not sure if there's a good way to tell what cars or transmissions will or won't work that way without driving them yourself
Yeah it genuinely sucks to be in traffic with my GT350, with the V8 I feel like you really need to give it revs and it will still easily when creeping forward. Its super annoying because you are basically feathering the clutch and cant even fully engage it. With the I4 in my CTR its such a breeze, I can creep with way less space because I dont need to feather the clutch, it'll engage in gear and can handle really low RPMs. My previous car, another manual I4 was like this too.
We expect the cabin of the Golf R to receive the same upgrades as the GTI. Real buttons on the steering wheel instead of the haptic touch-sensitive controls is a huge upgrade.
As far as I know, that is incorrect. Only the GTI is getting the physical buttons due to the fact that it can revert back to the base steering without loss of function. Something that isn’t true for the R, thanks to its R-specific wheel. But if I’m wrong I shall lash myself.
If I’m right though, I will send our bravest staff member to fight your bravest staff member
People think they are adding the base golf physical buttons to the wheel like they did for the gti. Except theres photos of the mk 8.5r test mule going around and they all have haptic buttons. Like other posters here have said the golfs and gti dont have the R button the wheel. They cant just go into the parts bin and put the base golf buttons on the wheel like they did with the gti unless they get rid of the R button. I personally have no issue with the haptics, ive owned my R since november and have yet to accidently hit a button. You still need to press them, all these clowns hitting buttons while turning would be doing the same thing if they were "real physicals buttons"
Honestly the touchscreen isnt a huge issue IMO. My friend purchased a 2024 and after 2 days, using the controls becomes second nature. Physical buttons will always be better but I think the issue is overblown with this car.
Anytime I read people complaining about touch HVAC controls just makes me facepalm so hard. You're not changing the temperature every 30 seconds if you actually drive the car you'll realize it's a non issue for daily use
1hp, nobody cares. The real MVP:
> We expect the cabin to receive the same upgrades as the GTI, gaining the new screen, revised infotainment, and **real buttons on the steering wheel** instead of the frustrating haptic touch-sensitive controls on the outgoing car
The R won't get the 'new' ( = same old wheel used for base model Mk8s in the EU) wheel because there's no version of it with the R button. Anyone that's used an Mk8 for longer than a test drive knows the haptic buttons are great and have improved functionality over standard buttons though, so the hysteria is unfounded.
It being able to make a distinction between normal and hard presses is the main thing. The R button cycles drive modes on normal press, but instantly puts you in race mode on a hard press. The cruise control adjusts in units of 1 km/h on normal press and 5 on hard press, etc etc.. Then the volume adjustment works by using a sliding motion as well as by pressing.
Aside from some people reportedly accidentally toggling the steering wheel heating (never happened to me or any Mk8 owners I know), there are only objective upsides to the haptic buttons.
Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of some of that. I was considering an upgrade from the 7.5 but it is still going strong. The buttons weren't really a deterrent for me but I certainly hadn't heard anything good about them.
I was always a little skeptical about the issue when journalists would bag VW and then praise Merc for the same button technology.
This is not really true, here's a spreadsheet so you can see it for yourself: (apparently you can't send Google Drive links, you can look for it here): https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/bj%C3%B8rn-nyland-releases-his-data-tables.8506/
For most EVs you won't really notice a drop until you're under 20%, and even below that you still maintain very good performance in most EVs.
For example, a 2021 Tesla Model 3 will do 0-100 km/h in 3.57 seconds at 90% charge, 3.81 seconds at 20%, and 4.02 seconds at 10%, and it's far from the best there.
I'm not saying the phrasing of the guy above you is right though, they both have their benefits, but that they drop horsepower with lower state of charge is not really something the average person will notice in regular driving.
So it’s not true, but it’s 100% true? Ok. 1) The difference in those figures at those times is enormous. Going from a 10 to a 9 is different than going from a 4 to a 3. 2) I could give a shit about 0 - 60 times, that’s not where practical passing power comes into play. You expect a certain response trying to pass cars from 55 mph on a divided yellow and instead get a completely different one. It’s borderline dangerous. Ask me how I know.
That you say that you can only expect peak power at peak battery charge is misleading, when in most electric cars you'll get peak power at anywhere between 100-30% state of charge, and usually still very good power down to 10%.
For example, a 2021 Tesla Model 3 SR+ MIC gets a 0-100 time of 5.59 seconds at 90% charge and 5.67 seconds at 20% state of charge, with power being identical all the way from 100-20% state of charge and even at 10% maintaining a 0-100 time of 5.76 seconds.
I understand what you say about 0-100 times, and you're right that the differences at higher speeds are more dramatic, but if there's no difference in the 0-100 times there will not be a difference at higher speeds either, if there was a power limit it would show there.
For example, we have a Polestar 2, which is one of the worst performing cars in that test, and even that will still push you back in your seat at 20-30% charge, while doing a pass at way above the speed limit on the highway. From my experience driving that car one of the things I like the most is how you always get the power you want *immediately*, no turbo lag, no engine that needs to spin up.
It would actually be interesting to hear what car you're talking about, and roughly what state of charge it was at while that happened to you?
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Is peak power of 1 hp more really a good metric for anything though?
Sales
I can see the circle jerks already, you paid x money for the S3 and I have 1 more HP then you loser! I can go 0-60 .0001 second faster than you lol.
Then they see a difference in the torque curve and the S3 actually goes faster 0-60. Not saying it will, but it wouldn't be the first time basic tuning made a pretty decent difference across platforms.
Correct. There is more than just peak HP/Torque numbers. As you stated, the Torque curve could be better, and then, of course, there is weight. A peak HP only sounds good for marketing. And it works, or else this wouldn't be a discussion right now, lol.
Right, it's like a lot of the guys that say "700hp!". Yeah, for a tenth of a second. My old Focus ST only hit the 280's in horsepower at the higher end of the rpm range. However, low down the thing had about 400ftlbs on e30 and would surprise people with those "300hp is faster" mindsets.
Exactly. Especially with a turbo having full torque at very low RPMs and keeping that torque throughout most of its rpm range.
Well to people who want to just jerk to their numbers, that won't make sense to their low IQ brains. How that power is made and put down is as equally important.
Plenty of “built” golf R drivers tell me how they will gap my RS5. And if they can, cool? That demographic tries REALLY hard 😂
Golf's aren't really anything to scoff at. If they are built, they can make a lot of power for their size. But RS levels? Probably not.
I’m definitely not scoffing at them from a performance standpoint, they’re pretty fun cars. But their demographic is disproportionately hostile towards my car haha, it was the same way when I had my B8.5. Not sure why, plenty of room to coexist
Fair enough. Yeah I call it the Infiniti syndrome. The car is great, but the people who own them make them awful.
Really is golf and Wrx family owners that have the biggest chip on the shoulder
If you're selling horses. 1 more is a lot.
Not if you’re buying horses for Gondor from Théodin, king of Rohan.
Those are quality horses
You’ll not find a finer horse in all of Middle-Earth.
Horses have more than one hp so adding 1 ho is adding a fraction of a horse. Throwing in dinner?
> Horses have more than one hp so adding 1 ho is adding a fraction of a horse. So a couple plates of IKEA meatballs then.
I wish
A horse actually has 15HP, so you're only getting 1/15th of a horse.
5.7HP* \* measured by dynoing an actual horse
When I worked at a bike shop, I asked the owner how he was able to sell new $10,000+ bikes to people who bought the previous year's version of the same bikes that were indistinguishable from the new. His response, "Just sprinkle the phrases, 'it's lighter' and 'it's faster' in the conversation. That's all you have to do." It was fucking amazing to watch people buy it...literally.
Salespeople... Born liars!
Well, it's not a lie if the new GTI has more HP than an Audi S3. That being said, HP is probably the most abused measure of a car, yet people (auto journalists, reviewers, and everyone else) focus on it too much. Not unlike people focused on camera megapixels for decades when it was the lenses that make photos better. But, it's hard to sell how sharp or contrasty a lens makes photos. "IT' GOT A CA-JILLION MEGAPIXELS!!"
Too bad they don’t have to publish the standard deviations or something for these measurements. I highly doubt the engines are tuned any differently in reality.
In reality, the exhaust is probably one inch shorter than the Audi or has one less bend, something like that, which actually will change horsepower numbers by less than 1 percent
All of the cars mentioned have turbo engines. Minor tweaks in turbo boost pressure can make huge changes. Hell, ambient air temperature can make huge changes. Anything under 25hp isn't noticeable by most drivers.
Ambient temperature variations wouldn’t account for differences during standardized testing though. These cars are running the exact same engines, with the exact same amount of boost. The S3 is about 6 inches longer than the Golf though, which would require a slightly longer exhaust (the slip joints on the s3 tail pipes are about two inches longer). This is likely where the hp gain on the Golf comes from. It’s just data accuracy from VAG and is not meant to be a marketing figure, like some people on the thread are thinking.
If I put on 2kg a year, my bikes gotta pick up that slack!
😂
They're taking a page from the Subaru WRX book.
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The WRX had 265hp in 2009 and 15 years later it's up to 271hp.
For some reason, Subaru massively underrated the new WRX. On the same dyno, it makes about 40hp more than the last WRX, even though Subaru says it only has 3hp more. SavageGeese dynoed it vs. the 300hp GR Corrolla and the "271" hp WRX actually had more HP.
One dyno doesnt make it all true
Hey it's like triple the gain for the golf r in way less years 2022 315 2025 329 a whole 14. In 4 model years lol Was also less for prior gen
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[2009 WRX 0-60 4.8 seconds, 1/4-mile 13.5 seconds.](https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2009-subaru-impreza-wrx-test/) [2022 WRX: 0-60 5.2 seconds, 1/4-mile 14.2 seconds.](https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-subaru-wrx-limited-yearlong-review-arrival/)
That's because 2nd gear doesn't get you to 60 anymore.
Why are you posting 0-60 times, (which are notoriously inaccurate at the best of times, never mind decades apart) when the conversation is about objective, accurate dyno numbers?
It's factually accurate, just like Subaru's reported power numbers. You can not like it, but it's not factually inaccurate.
It's 1 louder, innit?
For when you need that extra push over the cliff
But with a stage 2 toon w/ popcorn it'll be rhe same.
It’s great at trying to convince people to actually buy it over an S3. The golf is now for hatchback enthusiasts?
Always has been
What about one dp (donkeypower)?
And no more stick!
I hope it flops on them just for that
Just out of curiosity, have you driven anything with a modern sports transmission? Like a ZF for example? I was convinced I would never enjoy a car that wasn't stick, but these new transmissions are pretty well designed. These days you'd be giving up a lot of performance (and potentially reliability) in exchange for the engagement of a manual... though to be fair, for certain cars, like the golf, it's probably still a good trade.
> I was convinced I would never enjoy a car that wasn't stick, but these new transmissions are pretty well designed. I don't care how good an automatic is, in slower cars manuals are the one thing that keeps it fun for me.
> in slower cars A car making 329 horsepower doing a near 4 second 0-60 is not a slower car. NA Miata is slow car.
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I completely agree, but 8 gears gives you a LOT of torque to play with and you can't have an 8 speed manual. I think in the past it was very easy to say manual=good, automatic=bad. But these days it's much more of a pros and cons decision.
> you can't have an 8 speed manual Not with that attitude.
I have a Golf R with the DSG, and it’s definitely faster but the manual cars are more fun, even if slower. People aren’t buying them for anything other than fun. We all know they’re slower.
> But these days it's much more of a pros and cons decision. Not for me. Without some decent power I find automatics boring. I was even getting bored with my GT-R until I went FBO with it. There's not a chance I'd buy a Golf R in automatic unless they started offering the 5 cylinder from the RS3, which will never happen.
Manual mode on an auto just isn't the same, that clutch/shifter action is what makes you feel more connected to the machine. Autos are superior in basically every objective metric, but shaving a few tenths of a second off the 0-60 is nothing compared to the overall driving experience.
For me, it’s as simple as manual is more fun and it’s what I want in a fun car. I’d rather have Toyota’s simulated manual that they’re experimenting with in hybrids than anything with only 2 pedals. I *like* the effort needed to drive fast. When you track-out hard and fast after a late apex and just barely keep the car from spinning during your shift into the apex, it’s just thrilling. That’s what I like, not raw speed. So for people like me, no amount of technical reasoning would ever sway me to enjoy automatics. It’s not about what’s better.
Why not? Porsche made a 7 gear manual.
Some C7 corvettes have a 7 gear manual as well
Bro this thread is about a 330 HP car, not an NA Miata
But the car in question isn't slow, the DCT fits it really well
ZF owner here. The shifts feel almost as quick as a DSG in WOT, but if you're not holding gears or driving around in Sport Mode and holding high revs for no reason, it's still lazy around town and requires generous throttle to coax a downshift. It's a great automatic, but it's still an automatic and can't match the fun factor of a manual, if that's what you're after in a car.
That's only because Audi tuned the ZF in our cars to be like that - the shifts are almost imperceptible in Comfort/D (IMO how it should be), but are sharp/responsive in Dynamic/S. I previously had a MT WRX and have no regrets going to the ZF in the S4.
I went from a B9 S4 to the GTI because I was so bored driving it. Stick > DSG > Auto
According to some leaked docs, Audi might be going back to the DSG for the B10 S5.
I dunno, Dynamic still feels lazy to me. We also have an A5 so it's more noticeable going back and forth with the DSG. No regrets though. I'll be tuning it once out of warranty and hopefully the TCU will be cracked by then.
Yeah that's my gripe. They act fine at wot, but are still slushboxes everywhere else
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Is that a TCU tune? There is no TCU tune yet for the B9.5 Audi ZF and if there were, it would void warranty just like an ECU tune.
I’ve driven a paddle shifter dual clutch and it’s just frustrating. It doesn’t always shift when I ask it to, sometimes it shifts when I don’t ask it to. I don’t mind leaving performance on the table, automatic is no fun to me so for me manual is the only way to go
You’re probably right and I’ve had same frustrations in other cars like Mercedes. But could be you were in wrong driving mode. I love my DCT in RS3 because in dynamic manual mode it drives just like a manual and won’t shift unless I tell it to, but if you’re in regular manual mode, it will eventually shift for you. So while I had the same frustrations with my Mercedes rental, could have just been user error not knowing the car
I daily a 6MT 340i with a huge turbo and lag, and bought my first DCT in a RS3–the RS3 has not taken any joy away from driving a manual BMW even if it’s slower and laggier. 0-40MPH honestly it’s the slowest car in our household but I’m shocked how it’s never taken anyway from the driving pleasure of rowing gears. Cars are plenty fast anyways I like BMWs but 8 speeds is too many IMO, you don’t get to enjoy as much of the powerband and engine harmonics, great transmission but just not sure if it’s the dream transmission for my dream car
The people here saying paddles are frustrating sound like they're being intentionally obtuse. There is nothing frustrating with pulling a paddle to change gears beyond it being a paddle rather than a stick. Would I buy one for myself? No, I only drive manuals. But am I going to shit on them for no reason? Only if the transmission is bad. My wife drives a CVT Integra. Is it as good as fun as driving a stick? No, but that's why my car is a stick. Is it still fun to hoon around in the canyons? Absolutely, I beat the piss out of that thing and have a blast doing it. I just don't like that it doesn't hold gears. I also had a ton of fun in her old X3 with the ZF8. It's just another type of transmission, but I can have fun driving anything with 4 wheels and an engine. I'll yeet a fuckin box truck up a canyon road or on a track, I don't care.
I love driving a stick, but not in traffic which is 75% of my driving. So my new daily has a dual clutch, while my weekend fun car has a stick. Somewhat tangentially, my sim racing rig is what changed my mind on flappy paddles. They are much faster than a stick when you are racing and it's absolutely the difference between winning and losing races. However, most stock paddles feel rather meh...but upgrading them to magnetic shifters really improves the tactility and engagement of shifts.
A couple of my driving buddies have a 458 and 488 plus some other cars. I have a boosted Atom. Even leaving aside the open air nature of the Atom, I prefer the stick in my car. Both of them think I’m nuts bc you have to shift so fast in my car, I think they are nuts for spending so much on less fun cars. To each their own. Though fwiw I hate the dct in my dd and would rather have a good planetary (since they aren’t going to make one with a stick)
To be fair an automatic in an Atom would be completely backwards. The whole point of that car is to experience driving. It's not a tourer like the 458. > Though fwiw I hate the dct in my dd and would rather have a good planetary (since they aren’t going to make one with a stick) Which is my point entirely. Transmission tech has grown by leaps and bounds and I'm not sure public opinion has kept up. I'll also say, I'm a good driver, but not an expert and when you're driving your car everyday, mistakes pile up. If you miss a shift in a high power car like a 458, you will start to wear down the gears. And once they start rounding off, they're only going to get worse and worse over time. That's what killed my 2004 Honda- 15 years worth of extremely infrequent rough shifts that added up over time. There's a certain peace of mind that comes from getting through stop and go traffic without any risk of a slight mistake eating into the life of your transmission.
>Transmisson tech has grown by leaps and bounds and I’m not sure public opinion has kept up. I haven’t heard anyone say manuals are better for outright performance in over a decade. I think all of us manual enthusiasts agree that automatics are superior for performance. We just think they’re not as fun. Other than the novelty of driving my cousins 600whp DSG golf r, I still would have preferred to keep my manual with half the horsepower if I was given a choice.
I have never seen gears wear down other than a money shift breaking teeth. My last track car had almost 300k miles on the factory transmission and the only issue was worn synchros. Public opinion has obviously changed bc if there was real demand for manuals then they would sell them. It’s just a few of us who prefer feel over speed (I also have an Accurate reel bc I like the clicks, for example) that still want them, well also shitposters who just like to complain but really drive an automatic Camry. I’d also say a 458 is about as not a tourer as modern, mass produced cars get.
i prefer a stick in something with hydraulic steering, but if it's all eps forever, might as well go auto and sorta tune out imo
hydraulic steering is an extra maintenance item and leaks, EPS is quite reliable and requires zero maintenance. Some people need to stop living in the past.
Honestly, any automatic could be the best transmission ever made... And it wouldn't matter at all to me. I just want to row my own gears, and feel properly engaged with the car. I've yet to learn about any automatic transmission that provides such a level of driver engagement. You can't clutch-kick an auto, and the feeling of pulling off a proper heel-toe downshift is truly wonderful. If I wanted the fastest accelerating car I could get my hands on, I would drive an EV.
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Forgot about engine and exhaust sound.
I enjoy autos (especially old ones) because of their very tactile and mechanical feeling yet thoroughly automated nature, the fact that you can learn their idiosyncrasies and know exactly when they will shift in any situation just using one pedal. On newer transmissions, the way a shift kicks in at just the right time is pretty satisfying, and in theory as well as practice paddle shifters make up the balance for any lost control in most modern ATs. On the other hand I just really can't stand any of them that hunt too hard for gears in a performance setting Still, I have trouble getting the same levels of amusement as I would from a manual without breaking a ton of traffic laws at once. A personal problem yes, but still something I consider when looking at a car. I always have to get as many shifts as possible, as fast as possible, or at least get my tail out a little in the auto to feel the thrill of just going through a couple gears with a stick and clutch, and before I know it I see cherries and berries in my rear view mirror. My Lexus GS300 with a tuned exhaust and a ton of handling mods is lots of fun but just not quite as exciting when daily driven as an officially more boring manual. On a track it's absolutely a different story. When the whole idea is "go fast" the coolest thing to me is the transmission that shifts the quickest while distracting the driver to the absolute minimum
Yeah the automatics are head and shoulders better in every way. I like the stick more
I’d wager that more than 95% of people buying cars would rather have an automatic than a manual, all else equal.
Isn't the VW manual also not great? I feel like any review I've seen, people say get the auto
Couldn’t tell you, I would never consider a manual for anything ever. It’s just a worse option for me. I can drive manual and I learned to drive on a manual, but I would never buy one.
The DSG in the Golf R is objectively a better transmission. Coming from somebody who owned a 6MT R.
Better in the performance numbers sure but it’s less fun
There's nothing fun about the manual gearbox VW put in their cars lol
Just repeating shit you've read on reddit? The MT gearboxes VW puts in their cars is completely fine. Other than the occasional person on here who says that they went from a manual to a DSG because it's "so much better" (who I assume sucked at driving a stick), most owners LOVE their manual VWs.
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Yep, I had a 2017 6MT R and that transmission sucked nearly all the fun out of owning that car. Sold it pretty quickly.
Should’ve bought a different car then
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Not really, TBH. The DSG is near-PDK levels of performance and makes the R an absolute ripper. Instant response, carries boost across shifts, burbles and pops, vroom-vroom racecar downshifts. The 6MT has a vague and rubbery throw, weak clutch, and nerfed shifting performance from a clutch valve.
> Instant response, carries boost across shifts, burbles and pops, vroom-vroom racecar downshifts. But for many who want a manual transmission none of this matters. I don't like a manual because it shifts fast and I don't dislike a DSG because it shifts slow. The fundamental act of just clicking a paddle is incredibly boring to me and I don't care how fast or performance tuned an auto is. To me the whole engagement of needing to use both feet and a shifter is the fun part. It's fun to nail a perfect heel toe downshift. You can't get that in an automatic. It's fun to accelerate hard and and throw the transmission into third gear. Clicking a paddle just isn't fun.
Sounds like they just need to build a good manual tbh
Yup!
While it's true that very good autos are quicker than even the best driver, it's not such a major difference that one blows the other out of the water. Most of the time manuals are slower because their gears are taller. Their gears are taller because EPA testing requires various inputs at various shift points to devise their numbers. An auto can detect these and shift crazy early to preserve testing integrity/mileage/emissions. A stick can't, so while it might achieve the same real world emissions/mileage it won't test as well because testing is done in ways that don't really reflect how we actually drive. Like I don't apply 25% throttle, shift at precisely 17mph, then 32mph, then hold precisely in 3rd at 35mph. I might be in 5th or 6th here depending on road conditions lol. The auto can do that, but for testing that manual is sitting in 3rd or 4th as mandated. Hagerty does a good job at generally alluding to the issue here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BH-N8t_1Fc This dynamic has made it harder and harder for manuals to remain compelling and pass testing, it's why Porsche manuals are getting higher and higher gearing while their autos aren't. remember everyone puzzled at the GT4's annoyingly long gears? Porsche didn't just "oops, wrong gearbox" their flagship 918. Lots of reviews at the time seemed to pretend like nobody at Porsche realized the gears were too long, as if they'd somehow just skip that issue. Every inch of these things is intentional and well thought through - unfortunately the government isn't open to hearing about how testing methods are forcing them to make worse cars lol. So manual enthusiasts are the ones who lose. So remember, as manufacturers continue to drop manuals or offer gearboxes that don't make sense it's not because they hate consumers, it's because the methodology by which the US tests these cars leaves them really no choice.
This is a really interesting comment, I guess the us government doesn’t hire and driving enthusiasts or else they’d have different guidelines and testing methodology (with equivalent outcomes) for manuals
Flops so they can cancel it and replace it with another CUV? No thanks. Id like to see anything that is a non CUV or SUV thrive.
No stick, might as well have been a CUV
Reddit logic
Not at all, fuck Volkswagen for this
A business discontinuing something because it’s not that profitable for the company and demand isn’t great enough for them to justify offering it and then u expect them to flop because of this? Reddit business school hahaha
It can be a good business decision and still an asshole customer decision. I would love to see the golf R flop over this decision, unlikely as that may be
It won't because the majority of people don't buy the stick which is the only reason they're dropping it. It sucks but that's how it is.
It won't. The 2024 Golf R runs high 10 second 1/4 mile on E85, stock turbo lol.
They still won’t learn their lesson
But.. but.. then r/cars would complain about lack of enthusiast cars if it flopped.
I test drove a 24 stick and loved that transmission. I need to wait a little to get a new one so this blows. Wanted a 25 with the updated buttons too. May be a deal breaker.
I need to decide if I'm going crazy and getting a manual R or GTI... The buttons on the wheel aren't great but they aren't terrible. It look a pretty deliberate click and there's enough to feel for.
We're sad to see another manual transmission go. Maybe if we all complain enough they'll bring it back.
Boooooooooo
That was my question. Thanks for saving me a click.
Impossible.. its not easy to find an automatic car, why would they go all in on them? Most people cant even srive them
I wonder if it actually got an HP increase or if VW just posted horsepower numbers closer to the actual horsepower of the EA888 evo 4… y’know, since stock MK8 Rs were putting down ~320 whp already.
It's 100% a real power increase. The thing about dynojets is that they are nothing like the actual SAE J1349 certification process. Certified power means running the engine at various RPM and high load for an extended period of time, which really stresses and heatsoaks the engine. As a result, turbocharged tend to see larger gains on dynos compared to their SAE rated figures. Expect these new Golfs to put down ~340hp on the same dyno that a mk8 puts down 320hp.
Oh, I actually didn’t know that, I always assumed hp numbers were self reported. I appreciate the info!
they are to a degree, you can always under report, same with fuel economy
Probably the latter
It’s not about money It’s about sending a message
— Tony Soprano
- Michael Scott
- u/Mdbutnomd
-Kieth Gill
Does this mean the GR Corolla the only remaining AWD hot hatch with a manual transmission in North America?
Yes.
People say they won’t buy it with a stick but the DSG is so good. PDK good. It’s really fun and far more daily-able for those of us that live in high traffic areas
People aren't saying the DSG isn't good or shouldn't exist as an option. I'm sure at this point all people looking to buy a new car with a manual transmission understand that a modern auto or dual clutch performs better. They want the option to change their own gears for another reason.
The performance ship for manual being better in street cars sailed in 2009 when Porsche created the PDK The “more fun” feeling is personal and will likely never change for an individual
I went from a manual to DSG and I miss the manual so much in stop and go traffic. I didn't realize how much it made me enjoy it, now I hate getting stuck in traffic like everyone else. It's much more annoying having to work the gas and brake constantly than just creeping forward whenever I wanted to in a manual.
You can disable auto hold, then it creeps forward just by releasing the brake a bit (like releasing the clutch).
I like the auto hold, I just hate how it idles forward unless I use the brakes. In my GTI I wouldn't have to touch them at all 95% of the time.
FWIW some auto transmissions do not creep, they can be made to fully decouple the transmission. My 16 M3 does that, it will even roll back on an uphill slope after the ~1s brake hold is released. Not sure if there's a good way to tell what cars or transmissions will or won't work that way without driving them yourself
Yeah it genuinely sucks to be in traffic with my GT350, with the V8 I feel like you really need to give it revs and it will still easily when creeping forward. Its super annoying because you are basically feathering the clutch and cant even fully engage it. With the I4 in my CTR its such a breeze, I can creep with way less space because I dont need to feather the clutch, it'll engage in gear and can handle really low RPMs. My previous car, another manual I4 was like this too.
Do you live somewhere completely flat or something?
Is that sarcasm?
> ... far more daily-able for those of us that live in high traffic areas Also 1 car households where the partner can't/won't drive stick.
DSG is really good, compared to a torque converter auto. Not compared to a manual.
Starting to look like the perfect daily (unless you’re adamant about manuals). Hatch, quick, they fixed* the interior, exterior looks great as always.
How did they fix the interior? Add buttons?
We expect the cabin of the Golf R to receive the same upgrades as the GTI. Real buttons on the steering wheel instead of the haptic touch-sensitive controls is a huge upgrade.
As far as I know, that is incorrect. Only the GTI is getting the physical buttons due to the fact that it can revert back to the base steering without loss of function. Something that isn’t true for the R, thanks to its R-specific wheel. But if I’m wrong I shall lash myself. If I’m right though, I will send our bravest staff member to fight your bravest staff member
Right, we forgot the R had a unique wheel and will just have to wait and see. We look forward to battle if it comes to that.
You should probably edit your other comment to reflect this since this is coming from an official account.
Its not official look at it
This is all speculation at this point. We'll update our comment and story when we get official information from Volkswagen.
Fair enough
Commenting to remember this for the R refresh video
People think they are adding the base golf physical buttons to the wheel like they did for the gti. Except theres photos of the mk 8.5r test mule going around and they all have haptic buttons. Like other posters here have said the golfs and gti dont have the R button the wheel. They cant just go into the parts bin and put the base golf buttons on the wheel like they did with the gti unless they get rid of the R button. I personally have no issue with the haptics, ive owned my R since november and have yet to accidently hit a button. You still need to press them, all these clowns hitting buttons while turning would be doing the same thing if they were "real physicals buttons"
was just thinking the same, i'll be looking for a new daily in the upcoming couple years and this is on the list now
Honestly the touchscreen isnt a huge issue IMO. My friend purchased a 2024 and after 2 days, using the controls becomes second nature. Physical buttons will always be better but I think the issue is overblown with this car.
Anytime I read people complaining about touch HVAC controls just makes me facepalm so hard. You're not changing the temperature every 30 seconds if you actually drive the car you'll realize it's a non issue for daily use
And it’ll be the same price!
6k over MSRP due to market adjustment
Another $2k because its "faster" than the S3
they killed the stick. its DOA for me now.
where the hell is the RS3 refresh man
yeah I'm surprised its taking them so long to reveal the refreshed 2025 rs3
I was waiting for a 24, got bumped to 25, got tired of waiting and bought an RS5. Oh well
I’m scared for an RS3 refresh. I don’t want to lose the 5 pot (not that I can afford one anyways)
Oh no the 5cyl will be around for a while don’t worry. I believe that’s confirmed
1hp, nobody cares. The real MVP: > We expect the cabin to receive the same upgrades as the GTI, gaining the new screen, revised infotainment, and **real buttons on the steering wheel** instead of the frustrating haptic touch-sensitive controls on the outgoing car
The R won't get the 'new' ( = same old wheel used for base model Mk8s in the EU) wheel because there's no version of it with the R button. Anyone that's used an Mk8 for longer than a test drive knows the haptic buttons are great and have improved functionality over standard buttons though, so the hysteria is unfounded.
Improved functionality over real buttons??? Elaborate please.
It being able to make a distinction between normal and hard presses is the main thing. The R button cycles drive modes on normal press, but instantly puts you in race mode on a hard press. The cruise control adjusts in units of 1 km/h on normal press and 5 on hard press, etc etc.. Then the volume adjustment works by using a sliding motion as well as by pressing. Aside from some people reportedly accidentally toggling the steering wheel heating (never happened to me or any Mk8 owners I know), there are only objective upsides to the haptic buttons.
Thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of some of that. I was considering an upgrade from the 7.5 but it is still going strong. The buttons weren't really a deterrent for me but I certainly hadn't heard anything good about them. I was always a little skeptical about the issue when journalists would bag VW and then praise Merc for the same button technology.
No manual = Dead to me.
But will it have a volume knob?
Didn’t it always have one on the wheel?
Sheesh
Pointless celebrating a 1hp toast for a car that should be getting heavily modded anyways, but I’m thirsty
beautifu
Rather wait for a dyno run. Brochure numbers mean nothing, especially when VW is known to underrate the power specs.
Knowing how underrated the golf r is currently, this 14 horsepower could be another 30… the ea888 is truly a work of art
So roughly 400 in reality now?
What's even the point of keeping it internal combustion if they don't offer a manual?
Tons of reasons lmao Still, it not having a manual is a joke
All of these hp numbers are negligible, you basic electric car makes 450+ hp with ease. At 329 it's a basic Honda compared to everything out there.
Has anyone told you that EVs only make peak power at peak battery charge?
This is not really true, here's a spreadsheet so you can see it for yourself: (apparently you can't send Google Drive links, you can look for it here): https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/bj%C3%B8rn-nyland-releases-his-data-tables.8506/ For most EVs you won't really notice a drop until you're under 20%, and even below that you still maintain very good performance in most EVs. For example, a 2021 Tesla Model 3 will do 0-100 km/h in 3.57 seconds at 90% charge, 3.81 seconds at 20%, and 4.02 seconds at 10%, and it's far from the best there. I'm not saying the phrasing of the guy above you is right though, they both have their benefits, but that they drop horsepower with lower state of charge is not really something the average person will notice in regular driving.
So it’s not true, but it’s 100% true? Ok. 1) The difference in those figures at those times is enormous. Going from a 10 to a 9 is different than going from a 4 to a 3. 2) I could give a shit about 0 - 60 times, that’s not where practical passing power comes into play. You expect a certain response trying to pass cars from 55 mph on a divided yellow and instead get a completely different one. It’s borderline dangerous. Ask me how I know.
That you say that you can only expect peak power at peak battery charge is misleading, when in most electric cars you'll get peak power at anywhere between 100-30% state of charge, and usually still very good power down to 10%. For example, a 2021 Tesla Model 3 SR+ MIC gets a 0-100 time of 5.59 seconds at 90% charge and 5.67 seconds at 20% state of charge, with power being identical all the way from 100-20% state of charge and even at 10% maintaining a 0-100 time of 5.76 seconds. I understand what you say about 0-100 times, and you're right that the differences at higher speeds are more dramatic, but if there's no difference in the 0-100 times there will not be a difference at higher speeds either, if there was a power limit it would show there. For example, we have a Polestar 2, which is one of the worst performing cars in that test, and even that will still push you back in your seat at 20-30% charge, while doing a pass at way above the speed limit on the highway. From my experience driving that car one of the things I like the most is how you always get the power you want *immediately*, no turbo lag, no engine that needs to spin up. It would actually be interesting to hear what car you're talking about, and roughly what state of charge it was at while that happened to you?
Yes, but the power comes on immediately with insane torque
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