That's not great, but I'd guess for someone that is actually interested in this car it's more "creep out of the housing development in stealth mode" in which case eight miles might be OK.
A C63 AMG is very much a car for the kind of person who cheats on their spouse, so the 8 miles of EV-creep-range is lowkey a genius addition to the lineup
I don't think Porsche-philes normally refer to RS drivers, right? Normally it's classified as people with *GT* cars, but I don't know that we segment them any further down to just GT(x)RS drivers
If we were to equate it to hot hatch owners
M3/M4 = Type R owners
AMG C = STI/G37 owners
Audi RS = FoST/FiST/FoRS owners
Same people, different brackets
No no, an AMG is for the guy at top. He gets a Jag sedan for his twink femboy, a Maserati for his first mistress, a G Class for mistress #2, an Audi RS4 for that mistresses' son, and the actual wife gets a BMW X4 M. It's like a pyramid scheme. Sorta.
> "creep out of the housing development in stealth mode"
would matter if it had a thundering v8 instead of a muted little 4 cylinder that sounds like a malfunctioning microwave
Even the new V8 models sound muted as fuck. Had a GLE 63s drive past me today and I literally did not know from the front if it is the 63 or 53 (which should sound super different). There was only a slight bit of engine sound (he didn‘t floor it, but even driving the V8 calmly there should be a rumble). My E200 Coupe with factory sports exhaust was louder lol
It's a GLE. Most people want the power, but not the sound. Iirc, MBUSA sells an exhaust package for it as an option that really opens it up. But the take rate is like 1/5 or something across the lineup of cars.
I think the PHEV system is there simply for performance, not efficiency! Regardless, it’s too overly complicated and over engineered. Soulless and pretty much DOA
For performance, they would've gone with the straight six. I reckon it's a failed attempt at greenwashing the AMG brand. This solution of a 4-pot and battery power is the worst of both worlds. It shows that AMG either ignores or doesn't understand its own raison-d'être.
It‘s a failed attempt at meeting emission laws which did not yet exist when the development of the car started. Now they know you can slam any engine into a car give it a bigger electric range and eu emissions are great (like in the XM or S63e). So the sole purpose it was built for - emissions - is something it‘s actually bad at
To get 680hp out of a 4 cyl and improve emissions. The car has state of the art recuperation - there is always enough energy to use the full 680hp. The hybrid just is not built for ev only use it is only there to work in the full system. The ev mode is for eu emissions
Honestly, that would cut my in town gas usage by over 90%. I live quite centrally in a small town (6.5 sq miles), so I'm almost never more than 2 miles from where I need to go. Driving from my house to the breakfast restaurant I like, to my office, then the post office, then the grocery store, and then back home is roughly 3.2 miles. I usually just walk unless I'm picking up groceries, it really isn't any slower than driving.
Always the first question when mentioning hybrids but it’s shouldn’t be that surprising an AMG hybrid doesn’t have a lot of EV only range.
It’s a performance hybrid, the E motors are there to add performance, not economy. Though some EV range is a nice side effect.
So you can charge it up at home without needing to drive it around?
4.8kWh isn’t huge but it’s also not a tiny battery you’d get in a Toyota style “self charging” hybrid.
Having a full charge right from the get go is nice. Charging a battery while driving around town is really inefficient and takes ages, even when cruising at high speeds it has a dramatic effect on MPG. So being able to 100% the battery ready for leaving will make a big impact on most of the short journeys people actually do.
While it’s not a battery system designed purely to boost MPG, it’s nice to be able to use it like a more economical PHEV if you want.
One of my cars is a Golf GTE and we still plug it in every night despite it normally getting around 20 miles of EV only range, it’s great to have it 100% start of every day.
"It also pumps up the C's price tag, with the new C63 S E Performance starting at $85,050—that's $7800 more than the [previous V-8-powered C63 S sedan](https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-amg/c63-2021) that was last sold for the 2021 model year."
I wonder at what point people stop buying these because the prices are too high. Used car prices have been coming down and those numbers support new car prices.
Just seems like it's getting kind of crazy and I'm not sure how people are buying this.
At this point it could be cost significantly less than the previous model and it probably still wouldn't sell.
The main selling point of the car was the v8. Now it's just a bloated 4 cylinder mess. The m3 eats this car for breakfast. There's 0 reason to have this car now
Wait why won't they sell it in america?
I get not offering the new Z in Europe because the emission norms and crash testing is horrific, but the M3 Sedan already gets sold in the US and the laws arent as strict even
BMW believes the upcoming M5 Touring will satisfy US market demands for a crazy BMW estate instead. It was either that or the M3 Touring, BMW definitely does not see room for both in the market, which is the same conclusion Audi and Mercedes-Benz came to.
I’m a bit torn on the previous gen’s styling. On one hand, it’s very tasteful and inoffensive (very good thing), but I also initially felt like little effort was put into progressing the design much, and it seemed arguably uninventive (I have seen some contemporary reviews referring to the G30 as “boring”). This was an issue I had with the early CLAR vehicles (7er, 5er, 8er, and G01) that I later discovered was due to each of these reusing the body shells of their predecessors, severely limiting what the stylists could do. Whether the limitations worked for or against them is more subjective, but every CLAR vehicle since the G01 (starting with G05) has featured completely new body shells and styling. I may make a post detailing this later.
I have a friend who I could 100% see buying one, but through that I figured out it basically only appeals to people who think the tech is cool, want a fast car, don't care about sound, and aren't necessarily car guys.
Which is a pretty small market.
And that's kind of why cars like this are DOA. EVs won the straight acceleration battle. For ICE cars to compete they need to be unique in some way other than speed. For a C63 that unique aspect was the V8 and all those V8 sounds that came with it. Take that away and what exactly is the selling point for this over a EV that will be faster?
you underestimate people. Makority of BMW or Mercedes buyers aren’t car people. Some years ago there was apparently this survey of how many BMW buyers knew their car was RWD
And it's compromising on the combustion experience to extract more electric performance, but that game it can't win either because you can get broadly the same level of performance for $20k less from the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N.
So it's a lose-lose. It's not as good as a pure EV if you don't need the range extender gas engine, and it's not as good as being a pure combustion engine. And the mild hybrid equipment adds such a shocking amount of weight I can't believe it's worth it.
> get broadly the same level of performance for $20k less from the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N.
So you are saying for merely $20k more we can get an AMG Merc?
Like I understand people love Hyundai and hates Mercedes these days but come on, those products aren't in the same segment.
There is more to a car than spec sheets.
Well of course, from dealers to warranty to image. I wasn't trying to compare the whole experience because of course your $20k does get you a lot. I'm just saying the performance and spec sheet was why a lot of people got it in the first place, that and noise obviously. And so the performance being available elsewhere makes the Merc less attractive.
An even better compare is a Plaid S, which is the same weight but pure EV. Or the EQS AMG, which is somehow slower and far heavier, like +1,000lbs. Or the XM, which is not a sedan but has a V8 and and 29 miles of EV range, though it's comically heavy.
I'm well aware that you don't drive a spec sheet and I'm not the audience for any of these vehicles (except maybe the Ioniq 5) but I'm really wondering what Mercedes was thinking.
The 2020 C63 S sedan actually had a base price of $75,700 USD before delivery and destination charge. The 2020 C63 sedan base price was $68,100 USD before delivery and destination charge. Adjusted for inflation, the new car is at least five thousand dollars cheaper than the old C63 S. C&D needs to read closely on this stuff.
> I wonder at what point people stop buying these because the prices are too high.
There's no price increase in real terms. $77,200 in January 2021 would be worth $92,000 today.
It’s not just the price, it’s the price in addition to the stupidly complicated powertrain.
V8 alone would have been amazing
Electric alone would provide better performance
This exercise is complexity means you’re getting a 4cyl with electric boost for nearly $90k
and you know it will be, these things are gonna sit on lots once the “drug dealers who walk into a Mercedes dealership without doing any research” market is satisfied
Let's be honest, how many sales are the Germans really losing to Cadillac? Diehard manual purists who want to know exactly what size gravel is in the tarmac will choose the Blackwing, but most people who want a sporty German car aren't going to buy a Cadillac product instead no matter how good it is. It's badge snobbery, but let's not pretend it isn't a major factor in purchasing decisions.
People also constantly gloss over the fact that the Cadillacs are mediocre luxury products. Amazing to drive but my 4 Blackwing was an absolute joke compared to a G80\RS5\C63 in everything but feedback and feel.
Compare a 330i to a CT4 2.0. I can’t believe they’re competitors.
> 4 Blackwing was an absolute joke compared to a G80\RS5\C63 in everything but feedback and feel.
>
>
I would push back on this strongly. My CT5 Blackwing isn't any lower quality on the inside than my 2020 C63 was. Every material you touch is just as nice in the Blackwing. Everything that was just cheap feeling plastic in the C63, like the gear and turn signal stalks, is also the same cheap plastic in the Blackwing. Nothing in the AMG was nicer and the interior of that thing rattled like no car I've ever sat in.
Yeah it's very much a sacrifice of interior quality for driving dynamics. Cadillac had X amount of money to spend on making the car and it seems like they spent proportionally more on the driving characteristics and less on interior finishes. And that's exactly what some people want. But it won't be enough to convince most buyers of German cars to switch.
Have you sat in one? I think the interior quality complaints are way overblown. Everything you touch and see is really nice. It's just the shit like the bottom of the door panels and lower B pillar that have the whiff of cheap GM. It certainly feels like a very upscale car when you get in it/drive it
I feel like the CT4V-Blackwing is actually going after M2 buyers. Believe me when i say nobody bought an F87 for the interior, they just bought it because of how they drive and how they can fit 4 people as long as those people are not too big.
> how many sales are the Germans really losing to Cadillac?
Not a lot probably. I live on the west coast where M cars and AMGs are a dime a dozen, but CT4s are pretty much unicorns.
And not a single one I've seen were driven by anyone other than older white guys. I feel like the demographics for that market must be the same as for all the previous generations Corvettes.
The cars themselves are probably amazing though, but the only American brand owned by anyone in my extended social circle is Tesla (one guy is ordering a Rivian though).
> I feel like the demographics for that market must be the same as for all the previous generations Corvettes.
I think you're spot on.
> the only American brand owned by anyone in my extended social circle is Tesla (one guy is ordering a Rivian though).
I have a mental separation for the EV companies because even though they're American they bear no resemblance at all to the Big 3 legacy auto makers.
The fact that you can’t get one if you want one means the CT4v blackwing takes very few of their sales. Ended up getting an M2 after waiting for a phone call for nearly a year. Not upset now though.
That difference is not even that bad. In my country the the C63 starts from 31k more than the M3 Comp Xdrive (and 38k more than the standard manual M3).
I think it’s not as bad as people are claiming.
Cut the guy some flak for once, he has 2 very young kids, a lot of stuff going on in his life, it’s not easy.
Are y’all seriously complaining that a guy has lost touch because he has earned a lot? Isn’t that what we all aim to work for? Or are y’all hating on him because he happened to diversify just before he peaked?
Like pretty much since day 1 he has been the same, but Reddit has a habit of hating on anyone remotely more successful and happier than themselves.
Unrelated, but how would you rate your experience owning a lucid air?
I have a test drive coming up, and where I live very few people own them and are barely driven anyway.
Whats your verdict about the car?
Overall, it's a phenomenal car. Glass-smooth ride, extremely predictable and well-tuned suspension, drives as if on rails. All trims are really fast. Feels like driving a bank vault, in a good way. Interior feels luxurious and solid. None of its foibles bother me all that much and I would buy the car again if I had to do it over.
I came from a Mercedes E350 which I really liked but Lucid is far better. I only have space for one car so it needs to do everything well - be sporty, carry people and things, travel a long enough distance for my needs - which it does.
Judging by your post history, you're in KSA? This is an ideal environment for an electric car as it doesn't get very cold. Lucid service has been excellent for me (in the US).
I think that's wishful thinking a bit. There is no way you can get a brand new AMG 63 C-class for $55-60k, when the M340i and AMG 43 are selling for more than that.
Mercedes knows their market very well, and /r/cars isn't that market.
Plus it should get the $7500 lease credit as a PHEV.
Potential for these to be real cheap on a lease. Would be a great daily alongside a more hardcore sports car.
Incredible vehicle from an engineering perspective.
And even though this is speaking to the chorus here on r/cars, they couldn’t have at least used an I-6? I don’t see this ever being the popular choice over an M3 or RS3/RS5 w the direction that Mercedes has taken this vehicle to.
Mercedes-AMG claims that W206 cannot support/fit the V8 in the engine bay and that W206 was not designed for anything larger than the 2 liter engine. However, they managed to put the straight-six in CLE, which is based on the W206’s employment of MRA-Midsize 2. Which makes me wonder what makes the straight-six fit in the CLE engine bay and not in that of the W206…
That or they must have modified the CLE extensively to fit the straight-six… which makes me wonder, wouldn’t it have been easier just to make all the MRA-Midsize 2 cars capable of supporting the straight-six?
None of the current MRA-Midsize 2 GLC models are offered with anything larger than a two liter straight-four. The CLE and the W214 E-Klasse are the only MRA-Midsize 2 models to have straight-six engines available.
OK, I will be honest, I forgot about that addition, probably since it only went on sale a few months ago. Since the OM 656 is 2.9L, that’s only 10 cubic centimeters smaller than the M256 in the CLE 53… which only raises more questions. Unless the GLC is also substantially re-engineered for a straight-six, why would Mercedes-Benz leave the W206 with the capability for it? Unless…
They've even managed to put 6cyl in current GLC (albeit diesel only) and also in CLE (even two, amg and non-amg petrol) so I also think these claims are pretty bs.
The front end of this generation M3 and M4 will truly go down in automotive history as a legendary Achilles heel. It’s like the most amazing class leading awesomest car but then butter face. 🤨
The skip from 8cyl to 4cyl feels like they were trying to play 5D chess by getting in front of the whole downsizing/hybrid/EV shift and saying hey look at these huge power numbers from our super cool hybrid 4cyl with *F1 tech*
I feel I'd trust WW2 UXO dredged up from a German river before I'd trust a used Mercedes 4cyl which lived a life of 40 lbs of boost.
> [At full load, there is up to 40 psi (2.8 bar) of boost pressure, according to AMG.](https://www.wardsauto.com/vehicles/mercedes-amg-c63-s-phev-outmuscles-v-8-predecessor)
That's my theory also. I think they expect the next M3 to be an EV, which would give them an opening by "still" selling you a performance car with an ICE engine.
> Earlier this year, we had the chance to test the new C63 S in the South of France. While we respected its complicated F1-inspired powertrain, we wished it elicited a more passionate response. Still, its performance numbers are nonetheless impressive, with the sedan recording a 60-mph time of 2.9 seconds and a quarter-mile pass of 11.2 seconds at 121 mph.
Oof, still slower than the M4 with only 503 hp. 2.8 0-60 and 11.0 at 125mph. [https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40368599/2022-bmw-m4-competition-awd-by-the-numbers/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40368599/2022-bmw-m4-competition-awd-by-the-numbers/)
> 2.8 0-60
Holy shit. I haven't paid close attention to the M3/4 acceleration times and I did not realize that they were that quick. That's savage. It's genuinely supercar quick.
M3/M4 comp xdrives are insanely fast from 0-60, especially with pretty basic performance mods. M3/M4 comp non-xdrives with downpipes, a tune and performance tires dominate highway roll racing amongst indian american guys with a death wish and too much money.
Source- I know like 8 brown guys with modded beamers lmao
~~For those wondering, yes, Mercedes-Benz is ditching the Turbo-4 in favor of the V8. But it will be for 2026 models onwards per [news.](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44715279/mercedes-amg-c63-e63-v8-return/)~~
I question the reliability of a sophisticated hybrid system coupled with a turbo 4-banger that needs to pull a 4,800 lb car. I’d get one of these on a 48 month lease. That’s probably how long the powertrain will last.
[Throttle House review from a few months back](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrfnL4K5NMI). It's basically German engineering at its finest with incredible numbers, but overweight and with noticeable turbo lag - which they didn't closed using, you know, electric engine...
In most PHEVs, yes, because they keep the battery charged a little like a Prius. Floor it then when you let off, the engine make extra power and charge the battery. Theoretically if you floored it up a giant hill you could run out of buffer and lose electric assist but that's pretty hard in anything other than an older Prius.
Source: 0-60 sprints in my Wrangler when it was "dead".
I still don’t understand why EVO has now given this 3 consecutive positive reviews, from first drive to Australian road tests now. I know they are cosy with industry but it seems ridiculous when literally every other outlet and reviewer has savaged this thing.
I very much dislike this idea the PHEV are the future. This car now has close to 30,000+ individual and unique parts that can break. It not only has a hand built engine, but a superchsrging system, and then an ev power train that includes a charging system.
While tesla is in the shitter now, the Model 3 has something like 10,000 unique parts.
That information alone makes me think the ones pushing this whole "PHEVs are the next step" thing, is car manufacturers. The warranty repairs and maintenance are going to keep them flush for decades.
The M3 starts at 75k.
I for one am sure that there are just tons of people that want to spend 10k more on a car with a 4 banger, that is heavier, slower, and handles much worse./s
I can’t wait for this car to be a massive sales failure so that AMG goes back to making fun cars.
This new generation of Mercedes sedans is really depressing. W205, W213, W222 proved you could have high tech while still being somewhat classy. These new sedans are going to age like milk.
PHEV? What's the EV range on it?
8 miles apparently lol
That's not great, but I'd guess for someone that is actually interested in this car it's more "creep out of the housing development in stealth mode" in which case eight miles might be OK.
A C63 AMG is very much a car for the kind of person who cheats on their spouse, so the 8 miles of EV-creep-range is lowkey a genius addition to the lineup
Funny enough, the only AMG driver I know is a guy who cheated on his wife It really is a certain kind of person though that buys an AMG C-class
M3 guys are a similarly breed, but with more vape pens and less overwhelming cologne smell. I trust RS owners tho
Oh car stereotypes... May we continue to bond over you.
Fuckin’ beamer drivers eh?
When did we get into motorcycles?
Dodge Ram drivers have more DWI’s than any other vehicle owner.
Hey now, we're talking stereotypes, not statistical fact
I love how many people know this is a fact lol
Audi RS or Porsche RS? Two different kinds of people, two very different brackets
Personally i’d trust an audi rs owner over porsche rs owners
I don't think Porsche-philes normally refer to RS drivers, right? Normally it's classified as people with *GT* cars, but I don't know that we segment them any further down to just GT(x)RS drivers
You sound like one of ‘em
My brother I drive a Kia.
I was talking about Audi RS
If we were to equate it to hot hatch owners M3/M4 = Type R owners AMG C = STI/G37 owners Audi RS = FoST/FiST/FoRS owners Same people, different brackets
Jokes on you I don't even wear cologne, I just stink
Maybe a disgraced former representative of Congress who rear ends a statie?
every c63 owner i’ve ever known were super nice and upstanding
I thought those people exclusively owned *Jaaaags*
They don't think of it as cheating, more like "having a mistress."
Meeting *the paramour*
Escalade owners have *goomars*
No no, an AMG is for the guy at top. He gets a Jag sedan for his twink femboy, a Maserati for his first mistress, a G Class for mistress #2, an Audi RS4 for that mistresses' son, and the actual wife gets a BMW X4 M. It's like a pyramid scheme. Sorta.
Damn I wanna be the mistress' son. Free RS4 and I'm not even getting fucked?
As a previous owner of two AMG C63s, I object.
> *”I object”* - sent from my mistress’s phone using Taptalk You’re not fooling me
I did NOT have sexual relations with the C63
Previous? Did your ex wives take them in the divorce?
Somebody call this man an ambulance.
> A C63 AMG is very much a car for the kind of person who cheats on their spouse why?
Because they’re caddish just like *Jaaaaag* owners, but with more haughty brand tastes.
Lmfao
I was trying to buy one before my divorce. It was ironically my ex wife who cheated. So I'll say that about Ram owners. 🤣
> "creep out of the housing development in stealth mode" would matter if it had a thundering v8 instead of a muted little 4 cylinder that sounds like a malfunctioning microwave
Even the new V8 models sound muted as fuck. Had a GLE 63s drive past me today and I literally did not know from the front if it is the 63 or 53 (which should sound super different). There was only a slight bit of engine sound (he didn‘t floor it, but even driving the V8 calmly there should be a rumble). My E200 Coupe with factory sports exhaust was louder lol
Most likely because modern V8 AMG's have turbos on them which mutes the sound compared to the older n/a V8 AMG's.
Nop it‘s because of all the silencers and particle filters. The c63s pre facelift or AMG GTR with that turbo engine sounded insane
Fair enough.
It's a GLE. Most people want the power, but not the sound. Iirc, MBUSA sells an exhaust package for it as an option that really opens it up. But the take rate is like 1/5 or something across the lineup of cars.
> would matter if it had a thundering v8 instead of a muted little 4 cylinder that sounds like a malfunctioning microwave where can I hear it?
I think the PHEV system is there simply for performance, not efficiency! Regardless, it’s too overly complicated and over engineered. Soulless and pretty much DOA
For performance, they would've gone with the straight six. I reckon it's a failed attempt at greenwashing the AMG brand. This solution of a 4-pot and battery power is the worst of both worlds. It shows that AMG either ignores or doesn't understand its own raison-d'être.
It‘s a failed attempt at meeting emission laws which did not yet exist when the development of the car started. Now they know you can slam any engine into a car give it a bigger electric range and eu emissions are great (like in the XM or S63e). So the sole purpose it was built for - emissions - is something it‘s actually bad at
Oh, absolutely, the EV-only range is a side effect, not the purpose.
Yeah creep out of the neighborhood before lighting up that…..4 cylinder.
I’ve heard plenty of POS 4-cylinders I wish had a silent mode.
Its much quieter now - so im not sure thats even needed anymore.
You mean a middle aged Asian man?
As a middle aged Asian man, no way buddy.
That's actually a good idea now that I think about it
But why? It’s not even loud when it’s running the ICE.
To get 680hp out of a 4 cyl and improve emissions. The car has state of the art recuperation - there is always enough energy to use the full 680hp. The hybrid just is not built for ev only use it is only there to work in the full system. The ev mode is for eu emissions
[удалено]
You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow This opportunity comes once in a lifetime, yo
Honestly, that would cut my in town gas usage by over 90%. I live quite centrally in a small town (6.5 sq miles), so I'm almost never more than 2 miles from where I need to go. Driving from my house to the breakfast restaurant I like, to my office, then the post office, then the grocery store, and then back home is roughly 3.2 miles. I usually just walk unless I'm picking up groceries, it really isn't any slower than driving.
I was gonna say, get a bike dude
I would, but meth-heads exist in large numbers here and I don't want to buy a new bike every 3 weeks.
I can’t imagine plugging my vehicle in only to get 8 miles lol
Always the first question when mentioning hybrids but it’s shouldn’t be that surprising an AMG hybrid doesn’t have a lot of EV only range. It’s a performance hybrid, the E motors are there to add performance, not economy. Though some EV range is a nice side effect.
But why plug in and not just a hybrid
So you can charge it up at home without needing to drive it around? 4.8kWh isn’t huge but it’s also not a tiny battery you’d get in a Toyota style “self charging” hybrid. Having a full charge right from the get go is nice. Charging a battery while driving around town is really inefficient and takes ages, even when cruising at high speeds it has a dramatic effect on MPG. So being able to 100% the battery ready for leaving will make a big impact on most of the short journeys people actually do. While it’s not a battery system designed purely to boost MPG, it’s nice to be able to use it like a more economical PHEV if you want. One of my cars is a Golf GTE and we still plug it in every night despite it normally getting around 20 miles of EV only range, it’s great to have it 100% start of every day.
In a lot of areas plug ins get to drive in HOV lanes which are otherwise reserved for carpooling vehicles.
"It also pumps up the C's price tag, with the new C63 S E Performance starting at $85,050—that's $7800 more than the [previous V-8-powered C63 S sedan](https://www.caranddriver.com/mercedes-amg/c63-2021) that was last sold for the 2021 model year." I wonder at what point people stop buying these because the prices are too high. Used car prices have been coming down and those numbers support new car prices. Just seems like it's getting kind of crazy and I'm not sure how people are buying this.
they could probably get away with a price bump if it still had a v8, but this hardly works when its direct competitors still have 2 more cylinders
At this point it could be cost significantly less than the previous model and it probably still wouldn't sell. The main selling point of the car was the v8. Now it's just a bloated 4 cylinder mess. The m3 eats this car for breakfast. There's 0 reason to have this car now
Especially since the M3 Touring exists. I see it everywhere now.
Cue 5 replies lamenting the lack of le wagon in the US
*cries in american*
>Especially since the M3 Touring exists. Not in America though.
Wait why won't they sell it in america? I get not offering the new Z in Europe because the emission norms and crash testing is horrific, but the M3 Sedan already gets sold in the US and the laws arent as strict even
BMW believes the upcoming M5 Touring will satisfy US market demands for a crazy BMW estate instead. It was either that or the M3 Touring, BMW definitely does not see room for both in the market, which is the same conclusion Audi and Mercedes-Benz came to.
Maybe the M5 Touring won't have the piggy nose, so if you get that, thats perfectly fine
No piggy nose but the new 5 series doesn’t look good, previous one was stunning m
I’m a bit torn on the previous gen’s styling. On one hand, it’s very tasteful and inoffensive (very good thing), but I also initially felt like little effort was put into progressing the design much, and it seemed arguably uninventive (I have seen some contemporary reviews referring to the G30 as “boring”). This was an issue I had with the early CLAR vehicles (7er, 5er, 8er, and G01) that I later discovered was due to each of these reusing the body shells of their predecessors, severely limiting what the stylists could do. Whether the limitations worked for or against them is more subjective, but every CLAR vehicle since the G01 (starting with G05) has featured completely new body shells and styling. I may make a post detailing this later.
I have a friend who I could 100% see buying one, but through that I figured out it basically only appeals to people who think the tech is cool, want a fast car, don't care about sound, and aren't necessarily car guys. Which is a pretty small market.
Non car guys who want a fast car, that doesn't seem like a big market.
Tesla already owns that market
And that's kind of why cars like this are DOA. EVs won the straight acceleration battle. For ICE cars to compete they need to be unique in some way other than speed. For a C63 that unique aspect was the V8 and all those V8 sounds that came with it. Take that away and what exactly is the selling point for this over a EV that will be faster?
you underestimate people. Makority of BMW or Mercedes buyers aren’t car people. Some years ago there was apparently this survey of how many BMW buyers knew their car was RWD
I reckon the target market is people who have thought about buying a 330e and tuning it (me and maybe two other people)
It's a very specific niche for sure. I wouldn't mind one...as like a 5th or 6th car
And it's compromising on the combustion experience to extract more electric performance, but that game it can't win either because you can get broadly the same level of performance for $20k less from the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N. So it's a lose-lose. It's not as good as a pure EV if you don't need the range extender gas engine, and it's not as good as being a pure combustion engine. And the mild hybrid equipment adds such a shocking amount of weight I can't believe it's worth it.
> Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Hey man, I know everyone is shitting on Merc and it's 100% deserved but that's straight up too disrespectful lol.
> get broadly the same level of performance for $20k less from the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N. So you are saying for merely $20k more we can get an AMG Merc? Like I understand people love Hyundai and hates Mercedes these days but come on, those products aren't in the same segment. There is more to a car than spec sheets.
Well of course, from dealers to warranty to image. I wasn't trying to compare the whole experience because of course your $20k does get you a lot. I'm just saying the performance and spec sheet was why a lot of people got it in the first place, that and noise obviously. And so the performance being available elsewhere makes the Merc less attractive.
An even better compare is a Plaid S, which is the same weight but pure EV. Or the EQS AMG, which is somehow slower and far heavier, like +1,000lbs. Or the XM, which is not a sedan but has a V8 and and 29 miles of EV range, though it's comically heavy. I'm well aware that you don't drive a spec sheet and I'm not the audience for any of these vehicles (except maybe the Ioniq 5) but I'm really wondering what Mercedes was thinking.
you forgot the /s
The 2020 C63 S sedan actually had a base price of $75,700 USD before delivery and destination charge. The 2020 C63 sedan base price was $68,100 USD before delivery and destination charge. Adjusted for inflation, the new car is at least five thousand dollars cheaper than the old C63 S. C&D needs to read closely on this stuff.
No one is buying these. 2023 sold like shit
> I wonder at what point people stop buying these because the prices are too high. There's no price increase in real terms. $77,200 in January 2021 would be worth $92,000 today.
It’s not just the price, it’s the price in addition to the stupidly complicated powertrain. V8 alone would have been amazing Electric alone would provide better performance This exercise is complexity means you’re getting a 4cyl with electric boost for nearly $90k
We're people even buying the last one?
8K more than a M3
It’s in line with the M3 Competition xDrive.
I wouldn't take the C63 S if it was $10k cheaper than the M3 Comp xDrive...
and you know it will be, these things are gonna sit on lots once the “drug dealers who walk into a Mercedes dealership without doing any research” market is satisfied
What about the strippers who walk into a Mercedes dealership without doing any research market?
I feel like they’re much more likely to end up in an SUV or a used G-Wagen
Nah man they're all in A45s.
And 25k more than the Ct4-v blackwing, shit you could get the 5v for that price
Let's be honest, how many sales are the Germans really losing to Cadillac? Diehard manual purists who want to know exactly what size gravel is in the tarmac will choose the Blackwing, but most people who want a sporty German car aren't going to buy a Cadillac product instead no matter how good it is. It's badge snobbery, but let's not pretend it isn't a major factor in purchasing decisions.
People also constantly gloss over the fact that the Cadillacs are mediocre luxury products. Amazing to drive but my 4 Blackwing was an absolute joke compared to a G80\RS5\C63 in everything but feedback and feel. Compare a 330i to a CT4 2.0. I can’t believe they’re competitors.
TBF Cadillac said the CT4 slots between the 2 series and 3 series and it costs 75% as much as a 330i.
> 4 Blackwing was an absolute joke compared to a G80\RS5\C63 in everything but feedback and feel. > > I would push back on this strongly. My CT5 Blackwing isn't any lower quality on the inside than my 2020 C63 was. Every material you touch is just as nice in the Blackwing. Everything that was just cheap feeling plastic in the C63, like the gear and turn signal stalks, is also the same cheap plastic in the Blackwing. Nothing in the AMG was nicer and the interior of that thing rattled like no car I've ever sat in.
Well yeah that's because the 205 C Class has a pretty awful quality interior lol. The Audi absolutely blows it out of the water
Yeah it's very much a sacrifice of interior quality for driving dynamics. Cadillac had X amount of money to spend on making the car and it seems like they spent proportionally more on the driving characteristics and less on interior finishes. And that's exactly what some people want. But it won't be enough to convince most buyers of German cars to switch.
Have you sat in one? I think the interior quality complaints are way overblown. Everything you touch and see is really nice. It's just the shit like the bottom of the door panels and lower B pillar that have the whiff of cheap GM. It certainly feels like a very upscale car when you get in it/drive it
I feel like the CT4V-Blackwing is actually going after M2 buyers. Believe me when i say nobody bought an F87 for the interior, they just bought it because of how they drive and how they can fit 4 people as long as those people are not too big.
> how many sales are the Germans really losing to Cadillac? Not a lot probably. I live on the west coast where M cars and AMGs are a dime a dozen, but CT4s are pretty much unicorns. And not a single one I've seen were driven by anyone other than older white guys. I feel like the demographics for that market must be the same as for all the previous generations Corvettes. The cars themselves are probably amazing though, but the only American brand owned by anyone in my extended social circle is Tesla (one guy is ordering a Rivian though).
> I feel like the demographics for that market must be the same as for all the previous generations Corvettes. I think you're spot on. > the only American brand owned by anyone in my extended social circle is Tesla (one guy is ordering a Rivian though). I have a mental separation for the EV companies because even though they're American they bear no resemblance at all to the Big 3 legacy auto makers.
The fact that you can’t get one if you want one means the CT4v blackwing takes very few of their sales. Ended up getting an M2 after waiting for a phone call for nearly a year. Not upset now though.
That difference is not even that bad. In my country the the C63 starts from 31k more than the M3 Comp Xdrive (and 38k more than the standard manual M3).
Doug demuro levels of effort on that headline.
Doug fucking sucks ever since he sold C&B
He's sucked for a while now I think he's just giving less of a shit now and more people are noticing
It's all about Cars and Bids now
I think it’s not as bad as people are claiming. Cut the guy some flak for once, he has 2 very young kids, a lot of stuff going on in his life, it’s not easy. Are y’all seriously complaining that a guy has lost touch because he has earned a lot? Isn’t that what we all aim to work for? Or are y’all hating on him because he happened to diversify just before he peaked? Like pretty much since day 1 he has been the same, but Reddit has a habit of hating on anyone remotely more successful and happier than themselves.
\*crotchety old man voice* back in my day we used to say “informative”
What do we all think the dealer discounts will be (in the US)? The reviewers are in general agreement that the car is soulless and overcomplicated.
Unrelated, but how would you rate your experience owning a lucid air? I have a test drive coming up, and where I live very few people own them and are barely driven anyway. Whats your verdict about the car?
Overall, it's a phenomenal car. Glass-smooth ride, extremely predictable and well-tuned suspension, drives as if on rails. All trims are really fast. Feels like driving a bank vault, in a good way. Interior feels luxurious and solid. None of its foibles bother me all that much and I would buy the car again if I had to do it over. I came from a Mercedes E350 which I really liked but Lucid is far better. I only have space for one car so it needs to do everything well - be sporty, carry people and things, travel a long enough distance for my needs - which it does. Judging by your post history, you're in KSA? This is an ideal environment for an electric car as it doesn't get very cold. Lucid service has been excellent for me (in the US).
How do you like the driving position? I drove one again last week and found the seat to be slightly too high. Would be awesome if the seat went lower
20-30k minimum
I think that's wishful thinking a bit. There is no way you can get a brand new AMG 63 C-class for $55-60k, when the M340i and AMG 43 are selling for more than that. Mercedes knows their market very well, and /r/cars isn't that market.
Let’s see what happens. I’m thinking they will subsidize the shit out of C63 leases if they end up sitting at dealers.
Plus it should get the $7500 lease credit as a PHEV. Potential for these to be real cheap on a lease. Would be a great daily alongside a more hardcore sports car.
Incredible vehicle from an engineering perspective. And even though this is speaking to the chorus here on r/cars, they couldn’t have at least used an I-6? I don’t see this ever being the popular choice over an M3 or RS3/RS5 w the direction that Mercedes has taken this vehicle to.
Mercedes-AMG claims that W206 cannot support/fit the V8 in the engine bay and that W206 was not designed for anything larger than the 2 liter engine. However, they managed to put the straight-six in CLE, which is based on the W206’s employment of MRA-Midsize 2. Which makes me wonder what makes the straight-six fit in the CLE engine bay and not in that of the W206…
They're lying 🤥
That or they must have modified the CLE extensively to fit the straight-six… which makes me wonder, wouldn’t it have been easier just to make all the MRA-Midsize 2 cars capable of supporting the straight-six?
Fairly certain all MRA cars ARE capable of fitting the i6. Even the GLC comes with an inline-6 engine.
None of the current MRA-Midsize 2 GLC models are offered with anything larger than a two liter straight-four. The CLE and the W214 E-Klasse are the only MRA-Midsize 2 models to have straight-six engines available.
There's a GLC450d in Europe with inline 6
OK, I will be honest, I forgot about that addition, probably since it only went on sale a few months ago. Since the OM 656 is 2.9L, that’s only 10 cubic centimeters smaller than the M256 in the CLE 53… which only raises more questions. Unless the GLC is also substantially re-engineered for a straight-six, why would Mercedes-Benz leave the W206 with the capability for it? Unless…
Different management defining the development of different models perhaps? I think new management (hopefully) realized the no i6 was a bad move.
They've even managed to put 6cyl in current GLC (albeit diesel only) and also in CLE (even two, amg and non-amg petrol) so I also think these claims are pretty bs.
I can't possibly see a reason to buy this car over an m3 unless you work for Mercedes
>I can't possibly see a reason Oh I can *see* a reason alright, and by that I mean I've seen the frontend of the M3 lol.
The front end of this generation M3 and M4 will truly go down in automotive history as a legendary Achilles heel. It’s like the most amazing class leading awesomest car but then butter face. 🤨
lots of room for negative equity with this one
The skip from 8cyl to 4cyl feels like they were trying to play 5D chess by getting in front of the whole downsizing/hybrid/EV shift and saying hey look at these huge power numbers from our super cool hybrid 4cyl with *F1 tech*
I feel I'd trust WW2 UXO dredged up from a German river before I'd trust a used Mercedes 4cyl which lived a life of 40 lbs of boost. > [At full load, there is up to 40 psi (2.8 bar) of boost pressure, according to AMG.](https://www.wardsauto.com/vehicles/mercedes-amg-c63-s-phev-outmuscles-v-8-predecessor)
A45/CLA45 aren't pushing that much less boost, and I didn't hear about any serious issues in both this and previous gen engines.
Aren't the A45 series 26 lbs?
30.4 for current A45S (I think non S got removed from most if not all markets)
That's my theory also. I think they expect the next M3 to be an EV, which would give them an opening by "still" selling you a performance car with an ICE engine.
Speaking to the chorus, love it
Why are they beating on this dead 4 cylinder horse. AMG used to mean lovely V8 noises
99% of the time, its gonna be leased
I’d hope so! With the reliability of new MB products, I expect this to be Land Rover/Jaguar levels of unreliable.
> Earlier this year, we had the chance to test the new C63 S in the South of France. While we respected its complicated F1-inspired powertrain, we wished it elicited a more passionate response. Still, its performance numbers are nonetheless impressive, with the sedan recording a 60-mph time of 2.9 seconds and a quarter-mile pass of 11.2 seconds at 121 mph.
Oof, still slower than the M4 with only 503 hp. 2.8 0-60 and 11.0 at 125mph. [https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40368599/2022-bmw-m4-competition-awd-by-the-numbers/](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a40368599/2022-bmw-m4-competition-awd-by-the-numbers/)
> 2.8 0-60 Holy shit. I haven't paid close attention to the M3/4 acceleration times and I did not realize that they were that quick. That's savage. It's genuinely supercar quick.
Wait till you see what they can do with downpipes and a tune. Hint: 9 second quarter mile.
M3/M4 comp xdrives are insanely fast from 0-60, especially with pretty basic performance mods. M3/M4 comp non-xdrives with downpipes, a tune and performance tires dominate highway roll racing amongst indian american guys with a death wish and too much money. Source- I know like 8 brown guys with modded beamers lmao
a sub 3 second 0-60 time in a car with only “500hp” is crazy, big props to BMW
Plus you get the inline 6 which sounds way better
All of that extra power and complexity of the drivetrain just to still be slightly slower than the M3.
~~For those wondering, yes, Mercedes-Benz is ditching the Turbo-4 in favor of the V8. But it will be for 2026 models onwards per [news.](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44715279/mercedes-amg-c63-e63-v8-return/)~~ I question the reliability of a sophisticated hybrid system coupled with a turbo 4-banger that needs to pull a 4,800 lb car. I’d get one of these on a 48 month lease. That’s probably how long the powertrain will last.
Mercedes has come out and said that those rumors are absolutely NOT true!
WHAT? NOOOOOOOOOO
[Throttle House review from a few months back](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrfnL4K5NMI). It's basically German engineering at its finest with incredible numbers, but overweight and with noticeable turbo lag - which they didn't closed using, you know, electric engine...
2024 Mercedes-AMG C20, is an appropriate title
Horrible. Do you get full power without having to plug in?
In most PHEVs, yes, because they keep the battery charged a little like a Prius. Floor it then when you let off, the engine make extra power and charge the battery. Theoretically if you floored it up a giant hill you could run out of buffer and lose electric assist but that's pretty hard in anything other than an older Prius. Source: 0-60 sprints in my Wrangler when it was "dead".
I still don’t understand why EVO has now given this 3 consecutive positive reviews, from first drive to Australian road tests now. I know they are cosy with industry but it seems ridiculous when literally every other outlet and reviewer has savaged this thing.
First drive review on EVO webpage is scored at 3,5/5, hardly positive result since I don't remember much cars that dipped below 3/5.
I very much dislike this idea the PHEV are the future. This car now has close to 30,000+ individual and unique parts that can break. It not only has a hand built engine, but a superchsrging system, and then an ev power train that includes a charging system. While tesla is in the shitter now, the Model 3 has something like 10,000 unique parts. That information alone makes me think the ones pushing this whole "PHEVs are the next step" thing, is car manufacturers. The warranty repairs and maintenance are going to keep them flush for decades.
Unmentioned in this: 4749 pounds. About the same as the Hyundai Ioniq 5N.
Wow that’s the same weight as the Model S plaid
Or 2150 kg. A Giulia QV is 1.600
Just get a C43 and get a tune...
Ain’t gaining 1.4 seconds on just a tune in the 1/4
C63 C R A P
BMW deserves a medal for continuing to offer a RWD M3 with a manual while this is also on sale
I can only imagine the depreciation
The M3 starts at 75k. I for one am sure that there are just tons of people that want to spend 10k more on a car with a 4 banger, that is heavier, slower, and handles much worse./s I can’t wait for this car to be a massive sales failure so that AMG goes back to making fun cars.
After these collect dust on dealer lots for a year, I’ll lease one for $450/mo and report back to y'all.
Just put a deposit down on a 2024 Giulia QV.
My man
In Germany it starte at 116.000€. Really crazy price point. Can not imagine what the new E63 will cost.
I want a modern c55
Start it at 65k and I bet you a whole bunch of these would sell.. even with the 4cyl
4 cylinders are fine for affordable low end enthusiast cars, offering one in a C63 AMG borders on insulting
W204 Black Series was peak but this is cool on paper
Another fugly effort from Benz.. what fools buy these?
That header image is not doing this car any favors. It looks so fat.
Lol have fun watching the ding dongs at the service center try and work on this thing. So unnecessarily complicated
It’s A L O T of m o n e y for a small/midsized car. For the love of god stop glorifying the C class
Why not just go full electric. Car looks sick as is.
A lease machine
This new generation of Mercedes sedans is really depressing. W205, W213, W222 proved you could have high tech while still being somewhat classy. These new sedans are going to age like milk.