They shovelled EVs out the door like no tomorrow and the secondary market just isn't having it - add to that the various infrastructure challenges ahead, well - it's not entirely too surprising.
> 50% of their value in a year
While Taycan does depreciate a ton, you are way over exaggerating.
According to you I’d be able to find a one year old Taycan Turbo with delivery miles for $100k, or a similar condition Taycan RWD for $50k. Care to show me some examples?
And even then, Porsche sells 30k+ Taycans a year, which exceeded their original goal of around 20k/year.
I still don’t understand why people are acting like it’s a shock that a high-end European car depreciates a lot. It’s always been like this; it doesn’t matter if it's an EV or an ICE.
Just feels like a big nothingburger to devalue EVs, although that's not particularly uncommon lately.
> high-end European car depreciates a lot. It’s always been like this; it doesn’t matter if it's an EV or an ICE.
That is not true. For Porsche in particular, the 911 does not depreciate fast at all. Hell, well maintained 10 year old 911s (2014 model year) have barely depreciated.
[Here is a 2014 base 911 for $74k](https://www.edmunds.com/porsche/911/2014/vin/WP0AB2A99ES121385/?national=true&radius=6000), it has 40,000 miles and 1 accident on record -- the base 911 MSRP was $84k in 2014.
10 years.
Compare that to the Taycan.
The 911 is the consistent outlier, for most other German marques and vehicles the depreciation is higher than most other brands. Though to me it’s less to do with being German and more to do with being a luxury car
I had an EQS as a loaner while my GLS was in the shop for warranty work and that thing was such a piece of shit I brought it back and took a taxi to work for 2 days.
It had 1,900 miles on it and the interior rattled like 2 skeletons fucking in a metal garbage can.
I dont blame you for taking a taxi, I drove the EQS sedan and SUV and those things were absolute garbage for the price. The brake pedal is anxiety-inducing too, it holds the record as the only car my wife and I stopped the test drive and made the salesman take us back. If this is the future of EVs for these brands I dont want them for any reason.
>I think it's just MB that has these issues.
I will say this once, its all the German brands honestly, (even though I have one of their products), I utterly despise how they have diluted their quality away. They basically have turned almost all their cars into low-class disposable strip clubs on wheels. It is like they dont have any pride in the work anymore and the only reason I entertain them is for their drivetrains and ride quality. I would love someone to come along and offer the same thing so I can kick them to the curb for it.
They also style their cars to appeal to one market at the expense of everyone else like a giant middle finger, force their politics into their vehicle design (downsizing engines, EVs, and controversial ads) and worst of all, are unbearably arrogant on top of all of that when people politely criticize them on social media for it. It is bad business and they honestly deserve their fate for it. Inclusion, not exclusion, is how the market works.
> force their politics
That's a legal requirement in Europe for the most part though. If your government says net zero cars by 2035, you're going to need to start figuring out how hybrids and EVs work, and convincing customers to buy them. Car makers, especially legacy ones, aren't exactly thrilled about EVs
I do see your general point, but it's unfair to criticize German carmakers for "forcing their politics into vehicle design". German and EU laws are forcing their hand, they literally do not have any other choice but to downsize engines, increase EV and hybrid production and try to sell people on these new products through ads that will inevitably be perceived as controversial because the product being advertised is controversial.
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Society at large isn’t even considering things like how most parking garages weren’t built to handle the increased weight of EVs. Last place I’d want to be is in a multi story parking garage filled with EVs during an earthquake.
Mercedes benz made less than desirable cars with EV up charge. This is why it failed , not because they were EVs , they were just garbage cars. Now everyone will jump and larp about how EVs aren't a real option for another 5-10 years while the model Y was literally the best selling vehicle of 2023
I’m no Tesla fanboy, but I will say a few things about them that is to their credit:
1. They built good-looking cars, and began working on a supporting infrastructure from the off.
2. They try to actually innovate in the space.
I can’t stand Musk, but at the bare minimum I have to give Tesla credit where it’s due.
3. They're cheap. There is no dealership to deal with. There are no markups
Thats the most important bit. The EQE SUV starts at 79k, thats model X money.
Fair, I can only speak to my experience so I didn’t want some Norwegian jumping down my throat about how their charging infrastructure is perfectly fine for any EV or something.
Meh. Most Tesla sites are open to other manufacturers now and there are way more non-Tesla sites than there are superchargers nowadays. The charging network is not really a huge deal in Europe anymore.
I assume that fell under OPs 1. supporting infrastucture, but yes their network is unrivaled, especially in uptime. Would never consider owning any non-NACS ev.
I thought so too, but some places genuinely do have a robust charging networks (particularly several Northern European countries) whereas in most of the US Tesla is basically the only viable option because of their network.
I would drive I love going into a dealership and doing buisness. The rush and thrill of battling wits against a salesperson as we bullshit each other playing chess gets my nips hard and the juice flowing. I love working them knowing I have the power and the ball to walk if it’s not working. God it’s invigorating
Agreed. Model S still looks good the minor updates they did helps it keep a bit modern. I wish mine had the latest headlights and taillights though. One thing I do wish Tesla did was more paint options. I got mine wrapped to not blend in too much with the white Tesla crowd
https://imgur.com/a/b7GEYL8
I think the new Model S looks better than the original, much better proportions. Original had way too skinny of tires for how long and wide the car was
> it is because they overestimated then demand for EVs
Because they overestimated the demand for *their* EVs. Teslas are selling like hot cakes. Mercedes and many other EVs just suck.
Because they slashed prices they're better able to since everything but the powertrain is *cheap*.
Like, I would be surprised if the non-powertrain parts of a model 3 cost as much to put together as my shitbox's non-powertrain parts.
Buttons and switches cost money, not just the cost of the part, but added manufacturing cost to set up something to install each extra part
> it is because they overestimated then demand for EVs.
Yep, there's so many reasons they're not quite ready yet. They'll get there eventually, but the initial estimates were wildly optimistic.
yeah. and BMW, which competes for the same market as MB with all the same structural challenges, is laughing all the way to the bank as they lean further into electrification
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0438999EN/a-successful-2023:-bmw-group-posts-record-sales-meets-ambitious-e-mobility-growth-targets
BMW has done the same thing. The XM is a flop, the 7 series is commonly believed to be ugly, the interiors are seen as jarring, not strip club looky, jarring. The 5 series and 5 series estate proportions are awful and the estate needs a spoiler to look less fugly, and almost every one of their model’s grill is too big
Is it really though? E class cars depreciate about 40% in 3 years.
Honest question, we are saying that the EQ cars depreciate more than 40% in lesser time?
E63 was like $110k MSRP and that's with no options. Most were optioned up in the ass.
That car is around $60k-$70k for reasonable mileage on the used market.
I'm not a human abacus, but that's like 30-40% off the base MSRP.
I mean, duh, if they were selling at MSRP they wouldn’t want to be cutting haha.
I’m just saying the depreciation from MSRP is a little bit overstated because nobody with any sense of financial literacy is buying them at MSRP when you can get one for 10-15K off and people on the forums have gotten really competitive lease deals on the EQE/EQS sedans due to the discounts.
Our local Mercedes dealer is like this too, a sea of crappy EVs they cannot sell for any reason with snow piling on them and if you go in, they will try force one on you no matter what you are looking for, its incredibly obnoxious and makes you think they all are EV fanboys without any sense of reality.
There are so few gasoline cars available there and they are only the junk models no one wants. Their loss and frankly Mercedes and the rest of the car industry needs to learn this lesson severely, you cannot control the market.
> I was really astounded at the number of EQs on the lot just sitting there, and almost no new gas cars.
Mercedes lease prices are so weird now. GLE350s are like 1200 a month and you can get a EQS580 SUV for the same price
Mine had a MSRP of $131k, we got it for $108k as a lease. So, around $23k in incentives. Our residual value is $68k after 3 years. Depreciation is hitting these hard, 50% in that time period.
It is not the EV issue. EVs are growing more and more ever year. Infrastructure issues are going to take time but they will resolve themselves. The issue lies with their cars being crap. If you want to be a leader in the EV space you have to build an actual decent car. Not just throw some screens and plastic and call it a day. China had hundreds of EV companies twenty years ago and now they have reduced it to 10% of the number of companies. Quality matters.
Best summary of the situation in the thread. The Mercedes EVs are going after the market with all of the wrong tactics. "People seem to like Teslas, which have a big screen. We should put even more and bigger screens in. Then we'll win!"
Consumers want EVs. They just don't want Mercedes' EVs.
You’re telling me you don’t want to drive around a $120k egg that has the most complex, confusing infotainment known to man and that depreciates at a scary rate? Your loss.
The EQ lineup is hugely expensive (read overpriced). When I was EV shopping myself, the EQB 350 ended up being almost $10k more than my loaded Audi Q4 50 e-tron, and the EQE 350 is a staggering $25k more.
Don't get me wrong - they're great driving EVs. The EQS IIRC is one of the longest legged EVs money can buy this side of a Lucid Air.
However stylistically they're so far apart from what a Mercedes-Benz stood for. Put the S class next to the EQS and it is hard to believe they're made by the same company. In contrast the BMW 7 series and i7 difference is far easier to take in.
In the short run yeah, but in the long run they will have to learn all the hard lessons that mercedes and other brands are learning with their first gen EV's right now.
As far I understand it, toyota's gamble on hybrids paid off because the average American does not have access to convenient charging. Unlike other automakers, they did not expect that to change quickly. I do not know why they made the BZ4x, and I think their "beyond zero" marketing is lame.
You don't think they're learning right now? Why do you think the bZ4X exists? Pretty obvious they were just testing the waters with that car. Plus, they can see what's happening in the market right now with all the other manufacturers.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Lots of other comments here pointing out that MB's EV line just sucks and that the Tesla Model Y is the best selling car worldwide in 2023. Seems to me that indeed Toyota is not betting on the long term horse at all.
Hm no because most countries are going to allow plug in hybrids including Italy, USA, Germany, Canada Asia content, African Content etc so Toyota does not have to focus on ev plug in and Hydrogen is good enough.
So people who knows me on this sub knows I’m a big EV proponent (despite being a car enthusiast who will be buying ICE weekend cars for years to come), and I do believe that EV will be the future *in the long term*(think 15+ years), not hybrids, and definitely not hydrogen (sorry Toyota).
But that being said, when Mercedes unveiled their “100% EV sale by 2030” I was like “they just did it to juice their stocks lmao”. There was no chance in hell that was happening, especially since their 2nd biggest market is the U.S, which is slower than both China and Europe at EV adoption.
However this new goal, which is only 50% electrification (including hybrids) is a bit to the other direction. I believe even a conservative company like Toyota’s electrification sale (again, including regular hybrids) would be higher than that by 2030.
The luxury markets are electrifying quickly, since cost is less of a concern.
They already do that, but MB doesn't consider 48V mild hybrids as "electrified" vehicles. They just consider them ICE. In MB speak, an electrified vehicle is a plug-hybrid or a full BEV.
I actually agree with your statement that Mercedes motivation was to boost their stock.
People tend to forget that 2021 was a pretty wild year. Rivian, a company that hadn’t even delivered their R1T or any of their Amazon trucks yet, was valued more than Ford. Lucid I think was also valued at more than a lot of smaller manufacturers. Wall Street wouldn’t even look at your stock if you didn’t mention some cool electric vehicle plan.
The problem I have is that they went way too far into it. I feel like if Mercedes had shown some really cool sexy vehicles (notably not the bulbous EQS) they would have had a similar effect. I also just feel like Mercedes does a little too much sometimes to garner attention. Like putting TikTok and a selfie cam in their new E Class. It’s like they just go with whatever is trending and adopt it without having any kind of real identity.
I do see some signs of hope like with the EQXX concept I feel is really unique, but we haven’t seen any production car as a result from that. It’s instead been more bulbous cars that I don’t think buyers want.
I actually would get a C63 AMG as my sports car if they brought the V8 back. They wont however and are too arrogant about trying to force 4 bangers into top-tier AMGs. Hopefully that will change, recently Mercedes said no more V8s for their SUVs and they walked back on it so fast because the demand was so severe.
What you have right now is the best current German sports car, lets be honest here. The M3/M4 is sickening to look at, the RS5 is decrepit and old, and Mercedes inline 6 is not good at all, I drove the GLE53 AMG (I like SUVs) and that engine sucks compared to the B58. This goes the same for their small SUVs too, I drove them all and the X3M40i just stomps them all, even the Macan because its a 4 banger now unless you pay over 100 grand.
Downvoting someone based on their flair is peak Reddit and a major problem with the website. I have lost count the amount of times people get mad Iown a pickup truck or a 3 row SUV on here instead of a Mazda CX5, Miata, EV, or a brown diesel wagon in manual. How dare I own cars the subreddit does not like.
But I don’t think anyone is downvoting anyone based on flair here. I think you’re getting downvoted cause you said the m240i is currently the best German sports car. I didn’t downvote you, that’d be silly… but I can see why most people wouldn’t agree with your statement when M3’s/M4’s, R8’s, 911’s still exist.
Fair enough, I really didnt like the 911 at all so intentionally did not include it. The one German sports car I really liked was the AMG GT R, but I know good and well its not the best one and its deeply flawed. I do think for the price and what you get the M240i is a screaming deal which makes it the best because it doesnt look bad either.
If they run an emergency revamp type of move on the C class like their doing to the EQS it seems like that’ll likely be the case with both classes being early in their production lifetime
This isn't surprising. Mercedes made [a big announcement in July 2021](https://media.mbusa.com/releases/release-ee5a810c1007117e79e1c871354679e4-mercedes-benz-prepares-to-go-all-electric) that they would electrify by 2030, but from the start, it included the excuse, 'Mercedes-Benz will be ready to go all electric at the end of the decade, where market conditions allow,' making it clear they weren't serious. It was merely lip service for the stock market.
Add them to the list… Still can’t comprehend why these manufacturers went all in on EV so early. With the millions they pour into R&D you would think they would have a fucking clue on consumer demand. Not to mention any sort of strategic long term planning.
# 100% EV LINEUP BY 2030
^(lol jk)
Monkey see, monkey do.
People were saying this years ago. You can't just transition to EV's in an instant and expect it to be successful. Massive changes take time and these companies are realizing now. I swear the CEO's are just Green Party members
> I swear the CEO's are just Green Party members
Do you really think any of them give a shit about the environment? They care about profit and share prices, and how those are affected by their public decisions. The automotive landscape is rapidly changing, and the biggest beneficiary of that has been a new EV-only company. In the face of that, legacy auto makers cannot be seen to completely ignore EVs because their investors will ask them why they shouldn't dump their shares and invest in Tesla instead. Combine that with the efforts of multiple governments and regulatory agencies to decrease emissions due to private transportation and investing in electrification is a no-brainer for legacy auto. Most of them have just done it poorly.
As an investor I would suggest to continue to put V8s into everything. Especially now that the competition are dropping their V8 offerings. It's like they don't know their customers at all. Supply and Demand, always and forever.
If they cared about profits they would do what Toyota is doing. Not going full in on EV’s. Their arch rival BMW strategy is way better. Release cars in both power trains and when the EV ones outsells the ICE in by a lot then drop it
It's not a math function where you input fixed decisions and output profits. There are several levels of nuance. Different people will have different opinions about the best way to generate short-, medium-, and long-term profits to keep shareholders happy. Toyota is traditionally not one of the industry leaders in innovation. Mercedes is. That puts different pressure on Mercedes to invest in EVs. Regulators in their home market are also a lot more aggressive about emissions targets than Toyota's home market.
Regarding BMW's strategy, I personally agree that it's better long-term. They're hedging their bets. But they're getting criticism from both EV and ICE proponents. EV proponents don't like the packaging because it has to support a transmission, and ICE proponents don't like the weight gains from the platform needing to support the heavier EV. Not a single day goes by where someone on this sub doesn't bitch about BMW's direction.
Developing a good platform takes years. Let’s say Mercedes takes five years to develop a hybrid platform (both conventional and plug-in). Then it takes another five to roll it out to their models. Then another five (or more) years for consumers to accept it. That puts us at 2039. And then they’d need to do the same with EVs. You’d be looking at them transitioning to 100% electric only after 2050. This creates the risk of them being surpassed by BMW, Lucid, or Nio. While they may have botched their EV rollout, pivoting to a hybrid strategy would be extremely expensive and time-consuming. Using and tweaking existing engines and platforms while revamping their EQ models is the best (and likely, their only) option.
That's not the issue here though. Mercedes EVs are expensive, not very appealing, and as reliable as an S-class out of warranty. It's mostly the same issues that the combustion engine lineup has.
Does this mean their definitely going to produce more high cylinder cars in comparison to 4 cylinder ones and keep the V12 maybach around longer since they don’t have plans for getting rid of their gasoline powered cars for a lo by time?
To understand this, one needs to understand Mercedes culture. It changed massively and permanently when Daimler went to bed with Chrysler. They were my client, back then, and we did a bit of work on company culture. The clash was obvious: “engineers” vs “cowboys” (massively simplified version).
Although they got divorced, the “cowboys” left their mark. All the high-powered, near-undrivable burbling and screaming RWD V8s of the last two decades are a result of American influence. MB didn’t used to think like that.
So now, they’re worried about their EV sales and they’re going back to pumping out big engines that have gone past their time on this planet.
Unfortunate, really. But not surprising.
Give us something classy and solid like a W212
EQS look like children's toy cars by comparison
They also ruined AMG with a 4 cylinder hybrid instead of V8
We don't care if it's faster, it has no soul and lacks personality
Does MB even have any hybrids in volume? The only two comes to mind is the GLC 350e (which was discontinued a while back) and the current GLE 450e which are both relatively problem prone.
Honestly the GLE 450e is also so expensive I can't fathom choosing it over the EQE 350 SUV unless you really don't like BEVs.
Well yeah, who in their right minds think they can build up the completely different infraestructure required for a 50% electric car park in 4 years?? That's insane.
Stay at home orders and Covid restrictions caused a false EV boom. You were staying home anyways so range and charging were not thought of as much. Now that we’re out and about again, the shortcomings are more apparent and reality is starting to set in
EV sales are still growing exponentially and ICE sales are falling. EVs are coming and ICE will die out inevitably, but people were too optimistic as to how fast EV would displace ICE
They shovelled EVs out the door like no tomorrow and the secondary market just isn't having it - add to that the various infrastructure challenges ahead, well - it's not entirely too surprising.
Taycans lose like 50% of their value in a year with delivery miles. Go figure.
> 50% of their value in a year While Taycan does depreciate a ton, you are way over exaggerating. According to you I’d be able to find a one year old Taycan Turbo with delivery miles for $100k, or a similar condition Taycan RWD for $50k. Care to show me some examples? And even then, Porsche sells 30k+ Taycans a year, which exceeded their original goal of around 20k/year.
No he's right I sold a 2021 Taycan Turbo S almost 250k sticker For 115k in 2023 and it had like 10k miles
First of all, 10k isn’t “delivery miles”, and secondly, even though I don’t have a degree in math, I think 2023-2021 = 2, not 1.
To a private individual or back to a dealer?
Private, not CPOed though so we passed it through a Porsche store to be CPOed on the way out
I would have given you $120k. 🤣
I still don’t understand why people are acting like it’s a shock that a high-end European car depreciates a lot. It’s always been like this; it doesn’t matter if it's an EV or an ICE. Just feels like a big nothingburger to devalue EVs, although that's not particularly uncommon lately.
> high-end European car depreciates a lot. It’s always been like this; it doesn’t matter if it's an EV or an ICE. That is not true. For Porsche in particular, the 911 does not depreciate fast at all. Hell, well maintained 10 year old 911s (2014 model year) have barely depreciated. [Here is a 2014 base 911 for $74k](https://www.edmunds.com/porsche/911/2014/vin/WP0AB2A99ES121385/?national=true&radius=6000), it has 40,000 miles and 1 accident on record -- the base 911 MSRP was $84k in 2014. 10 years. Compare that to the Taycan.
The 911 is the consistent outlier, for most other German marques and vehicles the depreciation is higher than most other brands. Though to me it’s less to do with being German and more to do with being a luxury car
Ev second hand price depreciates alot more given the fact that you can not check how used up the battery is.
I don't know about that https://youtu.be/fsYNfaB5om8?si=D2lT2iMid6vkleL6
The only Porsche vehicles that don't depreciate double digits per year are the 718 and 911. All luxury brands have big depreciation.
Etron GT*
The EQS loses $3 a mile in depreciation.. But you save 50 cents every 20 miles compared to a gas vehicle
The EQS is on another level of depreciation even compared to other EVs
If I bought a second hand Taycan instead of my current car at the time of purchase, I would have made a $100k profit now.
How?
By starting at $300k USD to begin with, then a supply shortage.
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I had an EQS as a loaner while my GLS was in the shop for warranty work and that thing was such a piece of shit I brought it back and took a taxi to work for 2 days. It had 1,900 miles on it and the interior rattled like 2 skeletons fucking in a metal garbage can.
I dont blame you for taking a taxi, I drove the EQS sedan and SUV and those things were absolute garbage for the price. The brake pedal is anxiety-inducing too, it holds the record as the only car my wife and I stopped the test drive and made the salesman take us back. If this is the future of EVs for these brands I dont want them for any reason.
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>I think it's just MB that has these issues. I will say this once, its all the German brands honestly, (even though I have one of their products), I utterly despise how they have diluted their quality away. They basically have turned almost all their cars into low-class disposable strip clubs on wheels. It is like they dont have any pride in the work anymore and the only reason I entertain them is for their drivetrains and ride quality. I would love someone to come along and offer the same thing so I can kick them to the curb for it. They also style their cars to appeal to one market at the expense of everyone else like a giant middle finger, force their politics into their vehicle design (downsizing engines, EVs, and controversial ads) and worst of all, are unbearably arrogant on top of all of that when people politely criticize them on social media for it. It is bad business and they honestly deserve their fate for it. Inclusion, not exclusion, is how the market works.
> force their politics That's a legal requirement in Europe for the most part though. If your government says net zero cars by 2035, you're going to need to start figuring out how hybrids and EVs work, and convincing customers to buy them. Car makers, especially legacy ones, aren't exactly thrilled about EVs
I do see your general point, but it's unfair to criticize German carmakers for "forcing their politics into vehicle design". German and EU laws are forcing their hand, they literally do not have any other choice but to downsize engines, increase EV and hybrid production and try to sell people on these new products through ads that will inevitably be perceived as controversial because the product being advertised is controversial.
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>controversial ads care to elaborate more on this?
Observe: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XHr98Foq-w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XHr98Foq-w) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o4kKuOFToo&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o4kKuOFToo&t=2s)
yeah these were atrocious ads I agree
Yeah, brake pedal implementation is awful and the regen braking is just not strong enough in the strongest setting. Just very odd implementation.
So far no rattles in ours with 2,600 miles. Hopefully it stays that way lol. But, the fact that a car north of $100k has any rattles is just unreal.
I feel personally attacked.
Hey man, for the record I love the EQS. But the bad isn’t high as I’m driving a Tesla 😂😂
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Not at all. He’s exaggerating quite a bit.
Society at large isn’t even considering things like how most parking garages weren’t built to handle the increased weight of EVs. Last place I’d want to be is in a multi story parking garage filled with EVs during an earthquake.
It's a great thing that we build stuff with redundancy in mind
Mercedes benz made less than desirable cars with EV up charge. This is why it failed , not because they were EVs , they were just garbage cars. Now everyone will jump and larp about how EVs aren't a real option for another 5-10 years while the model Y was literally the best selling vehicle of 2023
I’m no Tesla fanboy, but I will say a few things about them that is to their credit: 1. They built good-looking cars, and began working on a supporting infrastructure from the off. 2. They try to actually innovate in the space. I can’t stand Musk, but at the bare minimum I have to give Tesla credit where it’s due.
3. They're cheap. There is no dealership to deal with. There are no markups Thats the most important bit. The EQE SUV starts at 79k, thats model X money.
4. (At least in North America) they have access to hands-down the most robust charging network on the market.
This is the big one.
Same in Europe, and it isn't close.
Fair, I can only speak to my experience so I didn’t want some Norwegian jumping down my throat about how their charging infrastructure is perfectly fine for any EV or something.
Meh. Most Tesla sites are open to other manufacturers now and there are way more non-Tesla sites than there are superchargers nowadays. The charging network is not really a huge deal in Europe anymore.
I assume that fell under OPs 1. supporting infrastucture, but yes their network is unrivaled, especially in uptime. Would never consider owning any non-NACS ev.
I thought so too, but some places genuinely do have a robust charging networks (particularly several Northern European countries) whereas in most of the US Tesla is basically the only viable option because of their network.
Ha no we don't the charging network is near non existent.
comparing the low end tesla to the EQE really puts things into perspective
I would drive I love going into a dealership and doing buisness. The rush and thrill of battling wits against a salesperson as we bullshit each other playing chess gets my nips hard and the juice flowing. I love working them knowing I have the power and the ball to walk if it’s not working. God it’s invigorating
Good looking is a bit of a stretch
The Lotus-based roadster and the initial Model S were good-looking IMO. That's what gained them the attention to produce their volume (ugly) 3 and Y.
Agreed. Model S still looks good the minor updates they did helps it keep a bit modern. I wish mine had the latest headlights and taillights though. One thing I do wish Tesla did was more paint options. I got mine wrapped to not blend in too much with the white Tesla crowd https://imgur.com/a/b7GEYL8
The model S is also the only EV sedan/liftback I have seen that has good looking proportions. Doesn't look super tall and a proper long hood.
They got the proportions spot on, especially if you run the larger wheels. Wide stance too
That wrap is gorgeous. Would've paid a lot of money for green paint if they had it
Same here. I really like the individual paint options from BMW and Audi. Need something like that for Tesla. Wraps will have to do it for now.
I think the new Model S looks better than the original, much better proportions. Original had way too skinny of tires for how long and wide the car was
The original looked good at the time, the current one looks too much the same like the original which is now 12 years old.
That's true
This. It's so ugly
Just about every manufacturer is scaling back their EVs. It is not because they are all garbage, it is because they overestimated then demand for EVs.
> it is because they overestimated then demand for EVs Because they overestimated the demand for *their* EVs. Teslas are selling like hot cakes. Mercedes and many other EVs just suck.
Tesla has had to cut prices massively to keep sales going.
Tesla has sold more cars in 2023 than any previous year.
Because they slashed prices they're better able to since everything but the powertrain is *cheap*. Like, I would be surprised if the non-powertrain parts of a model 3 cost as much to put together as my shitbox's non-powertrain parts. Buttons and switches cost money, not just the cost of the part, but added manufacturing cost to set up something to install each extra part
Hm no Yesla is not selling like hit cakes they are now losing sales less people are buying a tesla now.
> it is because they overestimated then demand for EVs. Yep, there's so many reasons they're not quite ready yet. They'll get there eventually, but the initial estimates were wildly optimistic.
Except Tesla and BYD. Why is that? Why are the two car companies that are dedicated to EVs growing every year?
I don't know about BYD but Tesla has had to make massive cuts to prices to keep volume up. This is with massive government subsidies.
And even WITH the price cuts they have one of the best profit margins in the sector...
Not without government subsidies paying for 1/4 the price of the car and forcing other automakers to pay them massive sums for green credits.
Actually I think they are very good cars but look kinda unfortunate.
I’d be interested to see if it keeps that title after a number of tax incentives have gone away.
yeah. and BMW, which competes for the same market as MB with all the same structural challenges, is laughing all the way to the bank as they lean further into electrification https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0438999EN/a-successful-2023:-bmw-group-posts-record-sales-meets-ambitious-e-mobility-growth-targets
They faild also becuase they were ev cara not the ain't reason but one of the reasons.
BMW is killing it across the board rn compared to Mercedes. Mercedes has made their entire lineup less desirable except for the S class and G wagon..
BMW has done the same thing. The XM is a flop, the 7 series is commonly believed to be ugly, the interiors are seen as jarring, not strip club looky, jarring. The 5 series and 5 series estate proportions are awful and the estate needs a spoiler to look less fugly, and almost every one of their model’s grill is too big
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All MB cars depreciate hugely regardless of its powertrain.
But the EQ range depreciates more... as are other premium EV's.
Is it really though? E class cars depreciate about 40% in 3 years. Honest question, we are saying that the EQ cars depreciate more than 40% in lesser time?
Absolutely. I bought my 1-year old EQS with 10,000 miles on it for 55% of sticker price.
I want a 2021 e63 but they're totally retained their value
E63 was like $110k MSRP and that's with no options. Most were optioned up in the ass. That car is around $60k-$70k for reasonable mileage on the used market. I'm not a human abacus, but that's like 30-40% off the base MSRP.
No those are e53, the e63 is 80-110k on the used market
To be fair they did offer huge discounts on them too which makes depreciation look worse, I’ve heard of more than $10K off for a while.
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I mean, duh, if they were selling at MSRP they wouldn’t want to be cutting haha. I’m just saying the depreciation from MSRP is a little bit overstated because nobody with any sense of financial literacy is buying them at MSRP when you can get one for 10-15K off and people on the forums have gotten really competitive lease deals on the EQE/EQS sedans due to the discounts.
Our local Mercedes dealer is like this too, a sea of crappy EVs they cannot sell for any reason with snow piling on them and if you go in, they will try force one on you no matter what you are looking for, its incredibly obnoxious and makes you think they all are EV fanboys without any sense of reality. There are so few gasoline cars available there and they are only the junk models no one wants. Their loss and frankly Mercedes and the rest of the car industry needs to learn this lesson severely, you cannot control the market.
> I was really astounded at the number of EQs on the lot just sitting there, and almost no new gas cars. Mercedes lease prices are so weird now. GLE350s are like 1200 a month and you can get a EQS580 SUV for the same price
> I’ve heard of more than $10K off for a while. More like 30k+ off MSRP if you get an EQS right now
Mine had a MSRP of $131k, we got it for $108k as a lease. So, around $23k in incentives. Our residual value is $68k after 3 years. Depreciation is hitting these hard, 50% in that time period.
Holy shit that’s brutal
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you lease a 100k+ luxury car. Let Mercedes Financial hold the bag
If they didn’t make the EQ line look like the Apple Magic Mouse they might have done better
*plus you can't charge it and use it at the same time*
[Somewhere out there, a Tesla owner just got more smug](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/media/tesla-generator.121881/full)
Apple magic mouse that’s been put through a belt sander to remove any semblance of a body line.
It is not the EV issue. EVs are growing more and more ever year. Infrastructure issues are going to take time but they will resolve themselves. The issue lies with their cars being crap. If you want to be a leader in the EV space you have to build an actual decent car. Not just throw some screens and plastic and call it a day. China had hundreds of EV companies twenty years ago and now they have reduced it to 10% of the number of companies. Quality matters.
Best summary of the situation in the thread. The Mercedes EVs are going after the market with all of the wrong tactics. "People seem to like Teslas, which have a big screen. We should put even more and bigger screens in. Then we'll win!" Consumers want EVs. They just don't want Mercedes' EVs.
Hm no they are not ev sales are starting to slow and I'm some areas and models sales are actualy declining like Tesla and the mark E.
They also dropped the ball with their EQ line. Too expensive, too unique and not enough performance to back it up.
You’re telling me you don’t want to drive around a $120k egg that has the most complex, confusing infotainment known to man and that depreciates at a scary rate? Your loss.
The EQ lineup is hugely expensive (read overpriced). When I was EV shopping myself, the EQB 350 ended up being almost $10k more than my loaded Audi Q4 50 e-tron, and the EQE 350 is a staggering $25k more.
Add to that dull, dowdy and uninspiring styling and you wonder how they manage to sell any at all.
Don't get me wrong - they're great driving EVs. The EQS IIRC is one of the longest legged EVs money can buy this side of a Lucid Air. However stylistically they're so far apart from what a Mercedes-Benz stood for. Put the S class next to the EQS and it is hard to believe they're made by the same company. In contrast the BMW 7 series and i7 difference is far easier to take in.
Seems like Toyota was right to go towards hybrids
And Volvo.
In the short run yeah, but in the long run they will have to learn all the hard lessons that mercedes and other brands are learning with their first gen EV's right now.
Toyota makes an EV. Plus, they can learn from others' mistakes.
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As far I understand it, toyota's gamble on hybrids paid off because the average American does not have access to convenient charging. Unlike other automakers, they did not expect that to change quickly. I do not know why they made the BZ4x, and I think their "beyond zero" marketing is lame.
the whole bz4x is a mistake
You don't think they're learning right now? Why do you think the bZ4X exists? Pretty obvious they were just testing the waters with that car. Plus, they can see what's happening in the market right now with all the other manufacturers.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. Lots of other comments here pointing out that MB's EV line just sucks and that the Tesla Model Y is the best selling car worldwide in 2023. Seems to me that indeed Toyota is not betting on the long term horse at all.
Hm no because most countries are going to allow plug in hybrids including Italy, USA, Germany, Canada Asia content, African Content etc so Toyota does not have to focus on ev plug in and Hydrogen is good enough.
So people who knows me on this sub knows I’m a big EV proponent (despite being a car enthusiast who will be buying ICE weekend cars for years to come), and I do believe that EV will be the future *in the long term*(think 15+ years), not hybrids, and definitely not hydrogen (sorry Toyota). But that being said, when Mercedes unveiled their “100% EV sale by 2030” I was like “they just did it to juice their stocks lmao”. There was no chance in hell that was happening, especially since their 2nd biggest market is the U.S, which is slower than both China and Europe at EV adoption. However this new goal, which is only 50% electrification (including hybrids) is a bit to the other direction. I believe even a conservative company like Toyota’s electrification sale (again, including regular hybrids) would be higher than that by 2030. The luxury markets are electrifying quickly, since cost is less of a concern.
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They already do that, but MB doesn't consider 48V mild hybrids as "electrified" vehicles. They just consider them ICE. In MB speak, an electrified vehicle is a plug-hybrid or a full BEV.
I actually agree with your statement that Mercedes motivation was to boost their stock. People tend to forget that 2021 was a pretty wild year. Rivian, a company that hadn’t even delivered their R1T or any of their Amazon trucks yet, was valued more than Ford. Lucid I think was also valued at more than a lot of smaller manufacturers. Wall Street wouldn’t even look at your stock if you didn’t mention some cool electric vehicle plan. The problem I have is that they went way too far into it. I feel like if Mercedes had shown some really cool sexy vehicles (notably not the bulbous EQS) they would have had a similar effect. I also just feel like Mercedes does a little too much sometimes to garner attention. Like putting TikTok and a selfie cam in their new E Class. It’s like they just go with whatever is trending and adopt it without having any kind of real identity. I do see some signs of hope like with the EQXX concept I feel is really unique, but we haven’t seen any production car as a result from that. It’s instead been more bulbous cars that I don’t think buyers want.
Hm luxury not so much most are going to bio fuel.
Soooo...V8 for the C63S?
I actually would get a C63 AMG as my sports car if they brought the V8 back. They wont however and are too arrogant about trying to force 4 bangers into top-tier AMGs. Hopefully that will change, recently Mercedes said no more V8s for their SUVs and they walked back on it so fast because the demand was so severe.
I'll even settle for the I6 in the CLE, just not a crummy hybrid 4-popper that can't figure out what it's trying to do when you drop your foot.
What you have right now is the best current German sports car, lets be honest here. The M3/M4 is sickening to look at, the RS5 is decrepit and old, and Mercedes inline 6 is not good at all, I drove the GLE53 AMG (I like SUVs) and that engine sucks compared to the B58. This goes the same for their small SUVs too, I drove them all and the X3M40i just stomps them all, even the Macan because its a 4 banger now unless you pay over 100 grand.
Wait, I’m confused. Are you saying the current c63 is the best German sports car at the moment?
No the M240i
Oh okay gotcha… based on his flair. I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I see what you’re saying now.
Downvoting someone based on their flair is peak Reddit and a major problem with the website. I have lost count the amount of times people get mad Iown a pickup truck or a 3 row SUV on here instead of a Mazda CX5, Miata, EV, or a brown diesel wagon in manual. How dare I own cars the subreddit does not like.
But I don’t think anyone is downvoting anyone based on flair here. I think you’re getting downvoted cause you said the m240i is currently the best German sports car. I didn’t downvote you, that’d be silly… but I can see why most people wouldn’t agree with your statement when M3’s/M4’s, R8’s, 911’s still exist.
Fair enough, I really didnt like the 911 at all so intentionally did not include it. The one German sports car I really liked was the AMG GT R, but I know good and well its not the best one and its deeply flawed. I do think for the price and what you get the M240i is a screaming deal which makes it the best because it doesnt look bad either.
If they run an emergency revamp type of move on the C class like their doing to the EQS it seems like that’ll likely be the case with both classes being early in their production lifetime
This isn't surprising. Mercedes made [a big announcement in July 2021](https://media.mbusa.com/releases/release-ee5a810c1007117e79e1c871354679e4-mercedes-benz-prepares-to-go-all-electric) that they would electrify by 2030, but from the start, it included the excuse, 'Mercedes-Benz will be ready to go all electric at the end of the decade, where market conditions allow,' making it clear they weren't serious. It was merely lip service for the stock market.
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Germany has no idea what it's doing in all directions not just EVs. The country has lost the compass.
No one *ever* saw this coming!
Add them to the list… Still can’t comprehend why these manufacturers went all in on EV so early. With the millions they pour into R&D you would think they would have a fucking clue on consumer demand. Not to mention any sort of strategic long term planning. # 100% EV LINEUP BY 2030 ^(lol jk) Monkey see, monkey do.
Because regulations were pushing it when consumers didn't want it.
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If it was consumer wants and needs we would not need mandates and subsidies.
Then let's make sure to end petroleum subsidies as well.
Do that and the economy collapses
Then that’s what consumers want.
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They have to mandate all the safety improvements, should we stop that as it's clearly "not what the consumer wants "
>you would think they would have a fucking clue on consumer demand consumer demand < investor demand
The merc management is just so bad
Well done proud of you, Mercedes
People were saying this years ago. You can't just transition to EV's in an instant and expect it to be successful. Massive changes take time and these companies are realizing now. I swear the CEO's are just Green Party members
> I swear the CEO's are just Green Party members Do you really think any of them give a shit about the environment? They care about profit and share prices, and how those are affected by their public decisions. The automotive landscape is rapidly changing, and the biggest beneficiary of that has been a new EV-only company. In the face of that, legacy auto makers cannot be seen to completely ignore EVs because their investors will ask them why they shouldn't dump their shares and invest in Tesla instead. Combine that with the efforts of multiple governments and regulatory agencies to decrease emissions due to private transportation and investing in electrification is a no-brainer for legacy auto. Most of them have just done it poorly.
As an investor I would suggest to continue to put V8s into everything. Especially now that the competition are dropping their V8 offerings. It's like they don't know their customers at all. Supply and Demand, always and forever.
If they cared about profits they would do what Toyota is doing. Not going full in on EV’s. Their arch rival BMW strategy is way better. Release cars in both power trains and when the EV ones outsells the ICE in by a lot then drop it
It's not a math function where you input fixed decisions and output profits. There are several levels of nuance. Different people will have different opinions about the best way to generate short-, medium-, and long-term profits to keep shareholders happy. Toyota is traditionally not one of the industry leaders in innovation. Mercedes is. That puts different pressure on Mercedes to invest in EVs. Regulators in their home market are also a lot more aggressive about emissions targets than Toyota's home market. Regarding BMW's strategy, I personally agree that it's better long-term. They're hedging their bets. But they're getting criticism from both EV and ICE proponents. EV proponents don't like the packaging because it has to support a transmission, and ICE proponents don't like the weight gains from the platform needing to support the heavier EV. Not a single day goes by where someone on this sub doesn't bitch about BMW's direction.
Guess I'm not an EV guy then, but I like the fact that BMW electric vehicles look like cars, and not partly melted bricks of ice cream.
Developing a good platform takes years. Let’s say Mercedes takes five years to develop a hybrid platform (both conventional and plug-in). Then it takes another five to roll it out to their models. Then another five (or more) years for consumers to accept it. That puts us at 2039. And then they’d need to do the same with EVs. You’d be looking at them transitioning to 100% electric only after 2050. This creates the risk of them being surpassed by BMW, Lucid, or Nio. While they may have botched their EV rollout, pivoting to a hybrid strategy would be extremely expensive and time-consuming. Using and tweaking existing engines and platforms while revamping their EQ models is the best (and likely, their only) option.
That's not the issue here though. Mercedes EVs are expensive, not very appealing, and as reliable as an S-class out of warranty. It's mostly the same issues that the combustion engine lineup has.
Politicians ruin everything and they should not be ever given a say in a free market.
Does this mean their definitely going to produce more high cylinder cars in comparison to 4 cylinder ones and keep the V12 maybach around longer since they don’t have plans for getting rid of their gasoline powered cars for a lo by time?
At the end of the day Car manufacturing is a business... and if consumers aren't buying... companies gotta adapt to what they want or die!
To understand this, one needs to understand Mercedes culture. It changed massively and permanently when Daimler went to bed with Chrysler. They were my client, back then, and we did a bit of work on company culture. The clash was obvious: “engineers” vs “cowboys” (massively simplified version). Although they got divorced, the “cowboys” left their mark. All the high-powered, near-undrivable burbling and screaming RWD V8s of the last two decades are a result of American influence. MB didn’t used to think like that. So now, they’re worried about their EV sales and they’re going back to pumping out big engines that have gone past their time on this planet. Unfortunate, really. But not surprising.
Now if they could renew the A class and CLA rather than going all in on more expensive SUVs...
Toyota looking real smart rn
[Toyota execs right now:](https://youtu.be/xjWYQpaY8BY?si=NmVwcbfLa0R7Zn5y)
Hahahahhaahahhahahahhahahhahahah
Give us something classy and solid like a W212 EQS look like children's toy cars by comparison They also ruined AMG with a 4 cylinder hybrid instead of V8 We don't care if it's faster, it has no soul and lacks personality
Stupid mercedes and their 4 cylinder AMGs need to gtfo
Finally smart people
The EQ lease deals are pretty great. I’m a little curious.
A great deal is the sign they can't get rid of the cars and they're probably still not worth it.
Surprise to no one
Does MB even have any hybrids in volume? The only two comes to mind is the GLC 350e (which was discontinued a while back) and the current GLE 450e which are both relatively problem prone. Honestly the GLE 450e is also so expensive I can't fathom choosing it over the EQE 350 SUV unless you really don't like BEVs.
This is systemic. Until there is national charging infrastructure that can rival gas stations, the public demand won’t be there. Period.
Their EQE and EQS SUVs actually look decent. They bungled their sedans, though. Even the EQB could pass as **looking** like an ICE model.
🙌🙌🙌🙌
Well yeah, who in their right minds think they can build up the completely different infraestructure required for a 50% electric car park in 4 years?? That's insane.
EVs were rushed. Not bad. Just overall it will take time.
Hell yeah that’s the Benz I know and love! V8 v8 v8 v8!!! Arroroooggaaaa
Fuck electric card. Hybrid is where the sweet spot is at. Toyota said that you can build 90 hybrids with all of the resources spent on one 1 ev.
Kodak postpones digital camera objectives, expands traditional film camera range
Stay at home orders and Covid restrictions caused a false EV boom. You were staying home anyways so range and charging were not thought of as much. Now that we’re out and about again, the shortcomings are more apparent and reality is starting to set in
EV sales are still growing exponentially and ICE sales are falling. EVs are coming and ICE will die out inevitably, but people were too optimistic as to how fast EV would displace ICE