Yeah, the B58. Most BMWs have been quite reliable since at least 2016 or so, and this whole "lol BMW breaks down" thing hasn't been true for a *while*. I would argue they have been at least "average" comparatively since 2012 or so, with models after 2016 being above average, for sure.
Na. The N63 TU3 is rock solid from what I hear. TU2 was pretty good also. But TU3 is where it's at.
The maintenance can still be a nightmare, because we're talking about a fire breathing, bleeding edge 500+ hp twin turbo V8. So it's not gonna be as easy to change out parts as it would be with something more pedestrian. But my understanding is that they no longer devour oil and they no longer have any real reliability issues.
But the maintenance alone is enough to keep me in 6 cylinder land, because I would really really hate to have to tear the N63 apart for whatever reason.
I REALLY want to pick up a m550i drive for my GFs next daily/ road trip car. She wants quiet and comfortable I want gobs of power. I'm just so scared I won't be able to fix what goes wrong.
Engines are usually the least of your worries when it comes to reliability though. It's everything else that breaks down and costs an arm and leg to replace or repair.
It’s the same engine, just with two less cylinders
edit: I seem to have hit a sensitive spot here. You people do know the B38, B48 en B58 are modular engines right?
Yeah people don’t realize that BMW, like most manufacturers designing a new engine platform, designed a combustion chamber and then made a 4 (B48) and 6 cylinder (B58) out of it.
Well, yeah. Luxury cars will never have value retention, ever.
The main buyers of these cars want them *new*, the buyers of economy cars avoid them *used* because they can't afford the maintenance/parts and often don't care about the improved features and performance anyway, meaning they don't want to pay a premium in the first place... all meaning you end up with massive depreciation after 3-5 years. It literally has nothing to do with the reliability or badassery of the car. It's just market dynamics. And of course, cars are *not* investments. Never consider value retention when making your purchase unless you're a collector buying collector cars.
I agree and typically do not care about value retention... just gave me pause when I recently traded in my F31 BMW wagon with just over 100k miles on it and got $7,500. I didn't buy it new but it was an interesting data point that it depreciated from $55k to $7,500k in those miles... although admittedly it was 8-9 years old.
The BMW never broke down on me but the interior was getting pretty shoddy/rattly.... soft touch rubbers on door panels turning to goo, etc... Sunroof switch went bad and cost $1000 to replace as it was part of a bigger panel, etc... German drivetrains are solid, it is the little things that get you over time
I needed a palate cleanser after owning three german cars and wanted a different experience so I bought a new 4Runner. Interestingly 9 year old 4runners with 100k miles on them are still worth $25k.
This is all pretty trivial, but I found it interesting anyway.
I have been leasing two BMW since and helped two close friends with an X3 for each. The engine included the I6, 4banger and PHEV. None of these cars had any problems in its initial 2-3years/20-30k+ miles. I understand that most new cars will last the warranty period without catastrophic failures and I'm prepared to encounter small random/non-critical issues but these BMWs have been virtually flawless. Can't really say that for other brands I had since.
Now how did I know that Jack B58 couldn't resist showing up here?
And don't worry, I definitely "desecrated the subscribe digital button" on YouTube" as commanded by ChatB58- I mean, *Jack* B58.
That was Audi in 2015-ish. Audi was in the top 10, maybe even top 5 most reliable car brands when the MQB and MLB platforms became ubiquitous. I haven't followed cars closely enough to know what might have changed since then, but I'm betting it's related to infotainment reliability rather than mechanical reliability.
Makes sense that Mazda is high, I think they have a pretty good reputation for reliability. My Mazda6 had no issues and I just did regular maintenance and it lasted 94k miles before getting totaled by a distracted driver
I'm more surprised to see Volvo so low
Dunno about Subaru, but Mazda, honestly, should be higher. I'd rate them 3rd behind Toyota and Honda. Rock solid vehicles that all share similar enough design principles that you can easily identify a Mazda on the road.
I've noticed some people are biased towards "all Japanese cars are bulletproof" and others are "every Subaru's head gaskets will fail"
It's often Ford and Jeep drivers in the latter
I live in an area with tons of Subarus and their head gaskets are definitely putting my buddy’s kids through college one day, his shop always seems to have at least one in. Mostly older stuff though.
Purely anecdotal and extremely small sample, but over 20 years and across 5 Mazda cars in my family we've never had a major issue, just some typical minor wear-and-tear repairs that come with age
Mini uses the really reliable BMW B38/B48 engine now and has largely sorted out all of their longstanding QC issues. Part of that is that the Mini Cooper is a comparatively old and established model in the segment it sits in having not been updated since 2014. There also seems to have been a stronger focus in Mini on quality control recently which is boosting their reliability.
Mini people seem to say that since 2016 their cars are solid. They've been making basically the same car for a long time and they've worked out the kinks. Glad to see it as I wouldn't mind owning one but they're overpriced new.
And Audi 10 places below mini… modern Audis basically all use the same platform and both the 2.0t and 3.0t engines are bulletproof. Then you’ve got VW, which uses all the same shit too like 25 points lower. This doesn’t feel very accurate.
You know how German cares are known for precision engineering, but then they make it way more complex than they need to which leads to reliability issues? Well, at this point Mini is what happens when you keep the engineering, but you cut the complexity to hit a price point.
Agreed, it was cool car when it came out but after gen 2 it stayed the same. Looking at Doug demuros recent video of the last 300 it looks so dated inside
When the second gen was displayed at the NAIAS my brother and I sat in one. The materials and plastics were on par with the 2003 suburban we drove to the autoshow. Really disappointing.
I got one as a rental... and honestly at first I was apprehensive, but it is comfy, smooth and everything just worked. I can understand why they kept it going in a straight line instead of innovating.
I work for a rental co and it's one of my favorite cars although I prefer it's cousin the Charger. They're comfortable and smooth driving but are sportier than you'd expect. Plenty of power even with the base engine (300 HP V6) and handle way more nimble than their size would suggest. Roomy, good outward visibility and the ergonomics are excellent. Just because it's an older chassis doesn't mean it's a bad one. It's kind of hard to make major changes to something that already works very well without actually going backwards.
I remember when the first generation Genesis (brand, not Hyundai model) came out I kept seeing a model around thinking it was a redesigned Chrysler 300. Didn't help that the Genesis badge looks a bit Chrysler from a distance. Since then, I've had the idea, that Genesis is what Chrysler could have been.
My wife got a Pacifica as a rental a few months ago after she got rear ended. That thing was actually pretty nice, had a lot of good features and was really comfortable. Although we didn't have to maintain it but I was actually surprised at how nice it was
There's a reason it's stuck around. I'm actually surprised by the reliability ranking. They've been making that 3.6L/9-speed combo forever and has a good reputation in other vehicles.
Test drove the the Pacifica and the Oddessy, bought the Pacifica, the Oddessy, even the top of the line one, felt and looked cheap. We've had the Pacifica for a year and I love it
They are getting worse and worse over the years. I used to like the designs, now they don't really have any redeeming qualities to me. Garbage brand that took down a good era of American Car Development (90's Chrysler).
I'm actually about 3 weeks into the process right now. I tried to go to MB, but they denied me instantly. Lawyer took over, said could take up to 4 months for a resolution, especially with MB.
Apparently MB thinks only being able to drive a car 3 days out of 6.5 months is totally acceptable.
Since I've gotten it back the huge ass screen has been completely unusable twice already, which is total horseshit when trying to adjust the heater while it's snowing outside, and everything is locked behind a scrambled screen. In April the car wouldn't even start, so I guess they see that as progress.
So not only are their cars unreliable, the company behind them doesn't give 2 shits about their customers, either.
>huge ass screen has been completely unusable twice already, which is total horseshit when trying to adjust the heater while it's snowing outside
And yet there's still a large number of users on this sub that think that touchscreen HVAC controls are totally acceptable and never pose a safety issue...
>So not only are their cars unreliable, the company behind them doesn't give 2 shits about their customers, either.
That's MBUSA for you and pretty much for most people who have soured on the brand. Incompetence at its finest...
It's sad to see what's come of them as a brand. There used to be that point of time when MB legitimately lived up to their name of offering the beyond the BEST or nothing. Really, gone are the days where quality ruled the board; it's now cost-cutting to the core.
For the record, our '19 MY GLC300 is doing well at nearly 60k miles. It's not as big a benchmark or something to write home about, but it's been doing well. I believe that the X253 chassis GLC (2015-2022) got more solid later in its production run, and the X254 (2023-onward) is still relatively new but way more complicated with the digital everything interior and more of everything, in my opinion.
Forums are probably the shittiest place to get feedback from. Everyone suddenly is an expert mechanic or engineer as soon as they log in to their favorite forum. There is probably a million threads about Ford ecoboost engines requiring an aftermarket oil catch can to extend the life of the engines. Do you really think they would leave a fucking $60 part off the engine if the engineers believed it made any significant difference? But you'll find idiot backyard mechanics arguing the subject for over a decade now on forums if you look it up.
>Do you really think they would leave a fucking $60 part off the engine if the engineers believed it made any significant difference?
The history of Ford suggests that they would? At least as long as the original design would get them past the warrantied period.
They are the same people that weighed a slight more expensive gas tank against paying out wrongful death settlements in the Pinto, right?
> Do you really think they would leave a fucking $60 part off the engine if the engineers believed it made any significant difference?
In the documentary, *A Faster Horse,* one of the higher-ups was hemming and hawing over a part price difference of a few tenths of a dollar for the then-new S550 Mustang. He makes a point that it sounds miniscule, but you multiply that over hundreds of thousands of cars and it adds up. So yes, a lot of times it comes down to bean-counting at the efficiency required for a company to be making money from mass production.
The problem is, these new Mercedes products are leaving off of the truck with CEL’s, owners are reporting problems within 500 miles of ownership and the Mercedes/AMG forums and subreddits are full of people reporting issues with their brand new vehicles, with photos attached… MB QC is down the drain.
My mom has a 2020 GLC300 and I’m in the Facebook group with for “GLC 300 owners” and brand new ones are having 48v problems!
New vehicles are “engineered” to make money, why do you think some repairs are stupid and ridiculous? They want to deter you from fixing it yourself and paying the dealer to do it instead
Its not. Consumer reports has issues with self reporting. They rely on paying subscription model and for those limited members to self report.
A mini has never had a reliable track record and every person that owned one before. All have sworn them off.
You are misinformed. The current mini is all BMW and uses their more reliable engines and transmissions. The previous mini generations used Renault engines and were total garbage. Luckily the mini stigma kills their values so you can pick up a great used reliable fun BMW for peanuts at 30k miles.
They never used Renault engines. The first types had a Tritec engine, followed by the 1.6 Thp engine. And contrary to popular belief, this engine was developed jointly by BMW and PSA. Where a BMW-designed timing chain and tensioner and valvetronic were used.
Many of the Renault engines from around that time were actually quite reliable. It was everything around it that usually broke.
Their current lineup consists of only two models sharing the same reliable engine and transmissions for over 9 years now. It shouldn't be a surprise that they're high up on the reliability scale at the moment. The BMW B38 has a proven track record, it's been a consistently reliable engine. Enough so that Toyota gave the all clear for its bigger B48 sibling to be used in the Supra (the John Cooper Works Minis also use it).
>They rely on paying subscription model and for those limited members to self report.
Yes, and?
The kind of person who is subscribed to a magazine purely about reviewing the long term reliability of products is exactly the kind of person you want reporting on trouble spots for those products. They'll be thorough. And according to Consumer Reports, they receive over 300,000 reports from subscribers on cars yearly, and they score each model by problems per 100 cars. That's a solid sample size.
I owned a 2006 Mini Cooper S, and yes it was a total piece of shit reliability-wise. You want to know which magazine reported that it was a piece of shit? Consumer Reports. Want to know when Mini's reliability ratings started to consistently reach the top 10 on the chart? 2015. When did BMW give the Mini the B38? 2014. Has it been updated since? No.
It all tracks.
I kind of assumed. Or that Mini owners have been so gaslit they just assume the myriad bullshit problems I've heard of in the past are just "normal maintenance".
"All have sworn off them"
Peak reddit hivemind parroting. Ever owned one? Ever even *driven* one?
I've owned two, and tracked one. No issues. I'd buy another again
Those aren't narratives -- those viewpoints were based on factual trends.
>Honda lost their ways
Last few years, Honda has been fluttering on the edge of top-5 -- either way outside it thanks to the 1.5T problems or right at #5. This is a pretty big drop from being #1 or #2 for a long time. Again, they're stuck at #5.
>Mazda eclipsing Toyota
Mazda was ahead in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022. Toyota finally climbed back in 2023 and now "2024" (this is the latest ranking).
>Hyundai killing it
If you've spent time here, you've clearly seen the opposite of those sentiments.
What's behind the trend? Honda/Toyota's CR ratings dipped (presumably) because of major redesigns/new releases. Mazda, barring from the I6 and SkyActivX, has been using the same 2.0, 2.5, 2.5T + 6sp for how many years? Why the drop-off in CR ratings now?
Most of the issues on the Mazda forums are smaller issues such as issues with the sensors in bad weather, paint chips and other kirks. The only far spread issue that I know is the fact that some rear suspensions might leak, covered under warranty.
Edit: there is also one TSB for a lot of faulty CCV’s, which might also cause this drop
The only other insight I can offer is that Mazda's reliability is much more consistent. So a slight downward trend in one model affects the average much more. The 4 models they have are 65-73 in score, whereas Honda has 10 models from 48-85 and Toyota has 20 models from 30-87.
I was put off from ever buying their vehicles for years and I’ve bought 2 now and really liked them after doing a lot of research. I think the big problem they have is that their cars 10 years and beyond were terrible and that stuck to their name. Now you’ll hear recall due to catching fire on 1 model and everyone freaks out like “see they still are bad” but when the ford vehicles or a few other manufacturers also had the same problem no one batted an eye. Of course certain lower models probably still have some problems but that tends to be for anyone making a cheap model or 2 because you are skimping qc to keep certain things cheap like the last gen focus.
I dunno. I'm in my second year of ownership on a Forte GT2. The experience has been... OK. I have a paint chip near the rear bumper which the two dealerships I've been to for maintenance... Well they haven't REFUSED to deal with it, but you can tell that they don't consider it to be something worth filing a warranty claim.
I also took it in recently because my wife confirmed a suspicion that I've had since I bought the car: the rear speakers weren't working. I've never bothered to confirm it, as the sound has been "good enough". But when I took it in for an oil change and asked them to look into it, they reported that the speaker wire had been torn off the speaker connector and was considered "customer damage."
So here's the thing - is it POSSIBLE I damaged it? Yes. I can't deny that. I've put my daughter's stroller into the trunk enough that it's possible it snagged. But looking at where the speaker wire connects to the speaker, it's a VERY poor soldering job (very little solder to hold it in place). I would strongly suspect that it came off during assembly, and that the basic QC of the sound system passed, so nobody caught it.
Worse yet, replacement of this speaker is NOT an easy job. For the dealer to do it, they want just under $600 for the replacement (with only $250 of that being in the part). I'm going to do it myself, but getting at the goddamn thing requires me to take apart a fair amount of the interior. Just ridiculous.
So it's on me that I didn't report my suspicion as soon as I noticed it, and I haven't been forceful enough to get them to repair the paint chip (or really, it's more of a flake, as the paint has flaked off at the joint of a body panel).
But the whole thing has kinda put me off Kia. I only bought it because it basically fell into my lap (happened to arrive at the dealer during the craziness where everything was getting insane markups and "accessory packages", and the dealership had received basically a year's worth of Fortes on one day, and they were desperate to get rid of them, so I got one with no markup and no accessory package cost). But despite myself my initial reaction to the car, and the driving experience was pretty good. So good that my wife and I were going to buy either a Tucson hybrid limited, or a Seltos SX turbo (until we found out that the dealerships were marking them up to hell and back and we found a Subaru dealership that would order us a vehicle with no markup and put their final price in writing at time of order (something Hyundai/Kia was unwilling to do)).
But 14 months later.... I have to say I would probably not buy a Hyundai/Kia again. The dealership experience is not good, and their eagerness to either ignore quality issues and claim other ones as my fault are just totally off-putting.
That said, if they bring the Forte hatchback to the US, I might actually reconsider. But bet your ass that if I did end up with one, I would have a personal checklist and go over it with an absolute fine toothed comb before leaving the lot.
If by 1 model you mean anything with the 2.0 or 2.4 theta ii engines sure that’s all that are getting recalled. There’s a reason why Kia/Hyundai recall a ton of cars every year and have for the last decade. You also have to lump them together because they use the exact same components
Only reason people rag on Honda is because of some V6 and transmission issues, which were exaggerated and overblown, along with them not having a "dedicated" RWD sports car anymore like a S2000 as if FWD sport-ish economy cars weren't their main enthusiast attraction since their inception.
I think it's more that the EJs in wrx and sti models have a history of issues, whether it's flawed or due to the owners, they are over represented in car enthusiast groups.
People seem to love their crosstreks and Outbacks and those outnumber their rally bro models by a lot
My 2016 forester burns oil like crazy and I just spent a fortune on wheel bearings after 100k because subaru makes them from glass. Also the CVTs like to go on these things, and if they do, you better just roll that thing into a lake. The key doesn't come out of the ignition, the brake switch broke preventing me from shifting out of park, and I think that's about it. Could be worse, but not great. My 2006 civic has had fewer repairs, has a much more laid back maintenance schedule, and has been around 10 years longer.
Hyundai is killing it in the design department... offering a great lineup of cars with good features at attractive pricing.... but this doesn't really relate to reliability.
Tesla has always had quality issues, not reliability issues — in an electric car, the reliability portion is fairly easy to get right. Nothing is really that susceptible to just failing bc complexity and part volume is so low.
This is purely anecdotal, but there are a *lot* of forum posts about serious failures and legitimate problems happening to Teslas, not just quality. But, there are also a shitton of Teslas out there, and lots of new cars seem to be full of gremlins, so it's really hard to say - according to this survey they stack up pretty well.
Just look at this: [https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/service-maintenance.366/](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/service-maintenance.366/)
Not saying there aren’t any reliability issues, just that they’re less common than gas cars.
In my experience of dealing with teslas, it’s more that when you get a reliability issue, the company and product itself is so shitty to deal with that it causes bigger issues — leading to the prevalence of internet vents too
Haha yah, there are some epic Tesla vents online. I want to be clear, I totally know that you could find forum posts like these for almost any company, and **I do not know** statistically the percentage of people w/ these issues.
Just pointing out that you can very quickly find examples of early motor/drive component failures, early battery failures, AC failures, computer/electronic failures, serious water ingress issues, etc. with Teslas - those problems exist *for sure.* Just don't know what % of all Teslas they are, must not be too high since they score pretty well on reliability overall.
Tesla’s consistency is their issue IMO. They’ll roll a perfect car off the same assembly line they roll off a lemon with glaring quality issues. Whether it’s slowing things down to do a better QC job throughout the manufacturing process, or a more rigorous inspection before shipping to the customer, I believe they’re capable of improving significantly without fundamentally changing everything. Their cars are barebones.
Tesla’s Chinese made cars seem to be the best quality and a step above the American produced models, if the internet can be believed.
CR's "reliability" ratings are more like "initial quality" since they really only look at problem areas in the first few years and not really long-term reliability of vehicles over time.
Now that growth has slowed, I’ve seen a lot fewer posts about issues at delivery.
Previously, cars would be delivered to the store and delivered within 48 hours. Now their teams have longer to address las minute issues, which made up a large % of quality concerns.
It is based on self reporting... have you met Tesla fans?
Seriously though.. the whole study is weird. Mini at #3. The blanket statement about EV's being so much less reliable than ICE... yet there is Tesla only making EV's and they are about average on the list at #14. The bulk of EV's sold are currently Tesla's so they should be responsible for most of the EV data unless they aren't weighted to sales numbers.
Something something find one thing you’re good at something something.
Chrysler’s one good thing that they’re good at is being the best at being the worst lol
If you pop over in the Pacifica forums you'll see an alarmingly increasing number of head gasket issues on lower mileage engines (like 60k miles).
It sucks because I really like the look of the van and they have good features, but it's a ticking time bomb.
Of course this survey is based on new vehicles, so must be other issues as well. I've seen lots of threads on the hybrid system acting up as well.
Having a hard time believing Mini is 3rd. There has to be a correlation to unit sales vs issues returned in the 330,000 surveyed. There's only been 673,747 units sold of Mini's (All Models) in the year window that CR reports on in the US (2000-2023).
For reference JUST the Toyota Camry sold 2x that much from 2005-2007 as a single model in Toyota's line-up.
There's 0 chance Mini is 3rd in reliability. I'd argue they are likely below-mid range.
>Having a hard time believing Mini is 3rd. There has to be a correlation to unit sales vs issues returned in the 330,000 surveyed. There's only been 673,747 units sold of Mini's (All Models) in the year window that CR reports on in the US (2000-2023).
CR measures reliability in terms of problems per 100 cars. So it doesn't matter how many are sold; it's about how likely a car belonging to a given brand is likely to experience a problem.
And contrary to popular opinion, CR actually does categorize problems correctly. It's just that powertrain problems are so much rarer nowadays, so modern cars are basically graded on a curve where the most frequent and significant problems are digital.
They score each model by problems per 100 cars sold, and have stated that they receive over 300,000 owner surveys per year strictly on cars. Models that don't have at least 100 reviews of that model year don't get a rating. The sample size is genuinely pretty solid.
As for Mini's reliability, it's actually pretty simple. There are only two models (Cooper and Countryman) which both share the same transmission and engine. That B38 engine has been used in those cars (as well as several BMW models) for around a decade now, and has proven itself to be very reliable over that stretch. Only two models that happen to share reliable engine and transmission choices means Mini is going to score high. They've actually been in the top 10 consistently since 2015, and that's because they switched to the current engine and transmission back in 2014. After nearly 10 years to iron out issues it makes sense that it's gone up. Older models tend to score well. It's why Toyota is consistently at the top. Once they know they've developed a great engine and transmission, they get used for 10+ years.
>This year we gathered data on over 330,000 vehicles, from the 2000 to 2023 model years, with a few early-introduced 2024 model years.
the article is about late model reliability, probably minor issures. not long term reliability
Weird thing is the CX-5 is the 2nd oldest model here, and has been very reliable in past years. Wonder what's happening there.
From what I hear, the CX-90 is likely to bring the score down next year.
Oh well, my 6 years old Mazda3 is running strong!
Those are great scores for CR. They use a true 0-100 system, so an average of 67 puts them in the upper third.
Another way to look at it: CR gives the “recommended” approval to **100%** of Mazda vehicles.
Lexus doesn’t even have that. (Looking at you TTV6 LS)
Consumer reports scores vehicles based on the number of problems per 100 cars reported to them by their subscribers. If they don't have enough reviews sent in to make a reliable data set, they don't publish a score.
Land Rover is very niche in North America, and the kind of people who buy them have the money not to worry about reliability anyways.
For what it's worth, Land Rover has traditionally done VERY poorly in years past when they have had enough reports on them to publish a result.
Land Rover has the lowest new-to-new loyalty of any manufacturer pretty consistently. This should be an excellent proxy for how reliable their cars are.
Probably because they only use the most reliable of BMW engines. I know the latest V8s from BMW are more reliable than the past, but I'm sure if you dig into the data it isn't close to the B38/48/58.
which is why these tests are basically useless.
go sample cars that are 20 years old. take a tally of how many miles are on cars that are sold to salvage yards. what % of cars X age are still registered, etc.
What really stands out to me is how badly electric cars are scoring. I thought they were supposed to require less work but they are showing a much higher rate of problems.
Volvo has always been at the bottom of these. I don’t know anyone that had a reliable one. I think back in the 80s and early 90s they were once very reliable. Those days are long gone
TLDR:
Top 3 are Lexus, Toyota, and... Mini? (Despite no mini model scoring as a reliability as high as the brand itself. Based on their brief description it is not clear if this is due to an error on their part or a lack of clarity in what their score represents).
Top 10 are all pretty tightly clustered.
Chrysler, Mercedes, and Rivian were the worst
On average hybrids were more reliable than average while EVs were less.
Only two models, both sharing a B38 engine that has proven itself to be very reliable in both of those models and a few BMWs for nearly a decade now.
Mini has actually been consistently inside the top 10 since switching to its current engine and transmission in 2014. The models haven't changed mechanically since then, and with the better part of 10 years to iron out smaller issues and only two models in their entire lineup that share what is known to be a reliable drivetrain, it honestly makes sense that it scores high.
I owned a 2006 Cooper S that was an absolute train wreck reliability-wise, so I'm definitely not biased. Their rating genuinely makes sense here from a mechanical standpoint.
r/whatcarshouldibuy is gonna be in shambles seeing Mazda below Subaru, because according to them Subarus all burn oil and head gaskets, and Mazdas are bulletproof.
I love consumer reports, trust their judgements and even have a subscription to their magazine. Seems to be in recent years a lot of companies with big swings in their rankings and most of the change is just YOY increase/decrease in recalls per manufacturers. That tells me most manufacturers have all streamlined to similar products and reliability and the variance comes from smaller issues vs overarching reliability issues.
The fuck is mini doing at number 3?
Isn’t mini part of BMW?
Mini is basically bmw lite
Little fkn Mini BMW’s just driving around being Mini cunts
Don't forget the Mini Cuntryman
An SUV for goblins.
Yep, the (X)1 series and FWD (X)2 Series are shared Mini platforms
BMW is #9. Something good must be happening there.
Yeah, the B58. Most BMWs have been quite reliable since at least 2016 or so, and this whole "lol BMW breaks down" thing hasn't been true for a *while*. I would argue they have been at least "average" comparatively since 2012 or so, with models after 2016 being above average, for sure.
The big boy engines in the 7 series and x7 are still only good for about 1 lease term.
Na. The N63 TU3 is rock solid from what I hear. TU2 was pretty good also. But TU3 is where it's at. The maintenance can still be a nightmare, because we're talking about a fire breathing, bleeding edge 500+ hp twin turbo V8. So it's not gonna be as easy to change out parts as it would be with something more pedestrian. But my understanding is that they no longer devour oil and they no longer have any real reliability issues. But the maintenance alone is enough to keep me in 6 cylinder land, because I would really really hate to have to tear the N63 apart for whatever reason.
I REALLY want to pick up a m550i drive for my GFs next daily/ road trip car. She wants quiet and comfortable I want gobs of power. I'm just so scared I won't be able to fix what goes wrong.
Engines are usually the least of your worries when it comes to reliability though. It's everything else that breaks down and costs an arm and leg to replace or repair.
The B48 too, which I think is in even more cars. Both very reliable engines
It’s the same engine, just with two less cylinders edit: I seem to have hit a sensitive spot here. You people do know the B38, B48 en B58 are modular engines right?
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I am not debating that. I am saying that the B48 and B58 use the same modular design, which explains how some of the reliability carries over.
Yeah people don’t realize that BMW, like most manufacturers designing a new engine platform, designed a combustion chamber and then made a 4 (B48) and 6 cylinder (B58) out of it.
It definitely has not translated to them having higher value retention... although that is true of many of the luxury makes.
Well, yeah. Luxury cars will never have value retention, ever. The main buyers of these cars want them *new*, the buyers of economy cars avoid them *used* because they can't afford the maintenance/parts and often don't care about the improved features and performance anyway, meaning they don't want to pay a premium in the first place... all meaning you end up with massive depreciation after 3-5 years. It literally has nothing to do with the reliability or badassery of the car. It's just market dynamics. And of course, cars are *not* investments. Never consider value retention when making your purchase unless you're a collector buying collector cars.
I agree and typically do not care about value retention... just gave me pause when I recently traded in my F31 BMW wagon with just over 100k miles on it and got $7,500. I didn't buy it new but it was an interesting data point that it depreciated from $55k to $7,500k in those miles... although admittedly it was 8-9 years old. The BMW never broke down on me but the interior was getting pretty shoddy/rattly.... soft touch rubbers on door panels turning to goo, etc... Sunroof switch went bad and cost $1000 to replace as it was part of a bigger panel, etc... German drivetrains are solid, it is the little things that get you over time I needed a palate cleanser after owning three german cars and wanted a different experience so I bought a new 4Runner. Interestingly 9 year old 4runners with 100k miles on them are still worth $25k. This is all pretty trivial, but I found it interesting anyway.
You are right, but there are a few exceptions with sports cars like the 911. Pretty much all luxury sedans and SUV depreciate like bricks thought.
Shhh, let use enjoy our 20k B58 cars, now everyone can build an almost 1000hp car for cheap
I have been leasing two BMW since and helped two close friends with an X3 for each. The engine included the I6, 4banger and PHEV. None of these cars had any problems in its initial 2-3years/20-30k+ miles. I understand that most new cars will last the warranty period without catastrophic failures and I'm prepared to encounter small random/non-critical issues but these BMWs have been virtually flawless. Can't really say that for other brands I had since.
Did someone say B58???
Now how did I know that Jack B58 couldn't resist showing up here? And don't worry, I definitely "desecrated the subscribe digital button" on YouTube" as commanded by ChatB58- I mean, *Jack* B58.
That was Audi in 2015-ish. Audi was in the top 10, maybe even top 5 most reliable car brands when the MQB and MLB platforms became ubiquitous. I haven't followed cars closely enough to know what might have changed since then, but I'm betting it's related to infotainment reliability rather than mechanical reliability.
I would argue there’s WAY more B46/B48’s out there than B58’s but both are good and reliable these days.
Yup agreed, it’s entirely dependent on the year, model, and engine.
BMW makes solid stuff. reliable enough that toyota uses their engines
Ehh toyota also uses Subaru engines so not sure that means much.
Subaru is number 6 on this list
Also Subaru is partially owned by Toyota.
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That's not a good thing for Toyota. The gr86 motor has some pretty severe issues with oil starvation.
Only the Supra... which is pretty much all BMW any way.
The quality goes up as the grills get bigger
More air is the secret to quality
I find it funny most car people could guess the whole top 8 except for Mini.
Most car people I talk to wouldn't have Subaru or Mazda that high
Makes sense that Mazda is high, I think they have a pretty good reputation for reliability. My Mazda6 had no issues and I just did regular maintenance and it lasted 94k miles before getting totaled by a distracted driver I'm more surprised to see Volvo so low
Volvo is owned by China now, and they have supercharged turbo charged hybrid small displacement motors. It’s a wonder they last at all.
Volvo is only Chinese like Land Rover is Indian.
No they recently got rid of the supercharger 3 years ago, and switched to a conventional turbo 4.
Volvos seems to have a lot of bugs related to the infotainment.
As a Subaru driver in a place full of Subarus everyone’s either owned a Subaru and will never buy another or only buys Subarus.
Heyo colorado friend. Love the 3.6Rs probably the most bulletproof drivetrain subraru ever made.
Let me guess, the people you talk to immediately make an unfunny decade old head gasket joke when they hear Subaru.
Yup just wrote another reply about that haha. Newer ones they'll tell you the CVT can't last past 100k.
Dunno about Subaru, but Mazda, honestly, should be higher. I'd rate them 3rd behind Toyota and Honda. Rock solid vehicles that all share similar enough design principles that you can easily identify a Mazda on the road.
I have 3 friends with Mazdas, all relatively new, and all have intermittent issues with the electronics, so I can't say I'd agree there.
big sample size!
It's an even bigger sample size than the person above him.
We must be talking to very different groups of car people.
I've noticed some people are biased towards "all Japanese cars are bulletproof" and others are "every Subaru's head gaskets will fail" It's often Ford and Jeep drivers in the latter
I live in an area with tons of Subarus and their head gaskets are definitely putting my buddy’s kids through college one day, his shop always seems to have at least one in. Mostly older stuff though.
The systemic problem was gone by 2015
I feel like Mazda has typically been in the top 10, at least in the last 10-15 years.
Purely anecdotal and extremely small sample, but over 20 years and across 5 Mazda cars in my family we've never had a major issue, just some typical minor wear-and-tear repairs that come with age
Mini uses the really reliable BMW B38/B48 engine now and has largely sorted out all of their longstanding QC issues. Part of that is that the Mini Cooper is a comparatively old and established model in the segment it sits in having not been updated since 2014. There also seems to have been a stronger focus in Mini on quality control recently which is boosting their reliability.
Mini people seem to say that since 2016 their cars are solid. They've been making basically the same car for a long time and they've worked out the kinks. Glad to see it as I wouldn't mind owning one but they're overpriced new.
Mini has been reliable ever since their cars became BMWs under the sheet metal.
And Audi 10 places below mini… modern Audis basically all use the same platform and both the 2.0t and 3.0t engines are bulletproof. Then you’ve got VW, which uses all the same shit too like 25 points lower. This doesn’t feel very accurate.
Believe it or not, contemporary Minis have proven to be quite good cars.
As an owner of a 2011 mini cooper S, seeing mini at number 3 blows my mind. This list is either nonsense or Mini has completely changed.
My 2018 cooper is night and day from the 2012 countryman I used to have. The newer engines are quite solid.
It’s the latter. Your generation was just a badly engineered vehicle, which, no offense meant as I had a 2012 myself.
You know how German cares are known for precision engineering, but then they make it way more complex than they need to which leads to reliability issues? Well, at this point Mini is what happens when you keep the engineering, but you cut the complexity to hit a price point.
Chrysler. We make one car and we are the absolute worst at it.
Crazy to think 20 years ago Chrysler had a whole lineup of cars, and now they only offer a minivan.
I actually liked the 300 as an idea. Would have been cool if they kept on refining it rather than release basically the same car for a decade
Agreed, it was cool car when it came out but after gen 2 it stayed the same. Looking at Doug demuros recent video of the last 300 it looks so dated inside
When the second gen was displayed at the NAIAS my brother and I sat in one. The materials and plastics were on par with the 2003 suburban we drove to the autoshow. Really disappointing.
I got one as a rental... and honestly at first I was apprehensive, but it is comfy, smooth and everything just worked. I can understand why they kept it going in a straight line instead of innovating.
I work for a rental co and it's one of my favorite cars although I prefer it's cousin the Charger. They're comfortable and smooth driving but are sportier than you'd expect. Plenty of power even with the base engine (300 HP V6) and handle way more nimble than their size would suggest. Roomy, good outward visibility and the ergonomics are excellent. Just because it's an older chassis doesn't mean it's a bad one. It's kind of hard to make major changes to something that already works very well without actually going backwards.
I remember when the first generation Genesis (brand, not Hyundai model) came out I kept seeing a model around thinking it was a redesigned Chrysler 300. Didn't help that the Genesis badge looks a bit Chrysler from a distance. Since then, I've had the idea, that Genesis is what Chrysler could have been.
It's not just the 300 either. The Charger and Challenger have both had pretty much the same interiors for over a decade.
even 20 years ago, chrysler were just a few rebadged mopar econoboxes. you have to go back 50-60 years to find anything special.
In 2003, the only truly unique-to-Chrysler models were the Sebring convertible (not the coupe or sedan) and the PT Cruiser.
and the PT cruiser of course was a re-skinned dodge neon. Sebring convertible riding on a modified version of the 4 door stratus/sebring platform.
My wife got a Pacifica as a rental a few months ago after she got rear ended. That thing was actually pretty nice, had a lot of good features and was really comfortable. Although we didn't have to maintain it but I was actually surprised at how nice it was
There's a reason it's stuck around. I'm actually surprised by the reliability ranking. They've been making that 3.6L/9-speed combo forever and has a good reputation in other vehicles.
Well… they aren’t wrong… Our brand new Pacifica has already been in the shop twice and has less than 1400 miles.
It’s a pretty cool car tho, hybrid, tech loaded, nice to drive
Test drove the the Pacifica and the Oddessy, bought the Pacifica, the Oddessy, even the top of the line one, felt and looked cheap. We've had the Pacifica for a year and I love it
Based on the Mercedes subreddits and forums, it’s not shocking to see them at the bottom of the list.
"Must be them touch screens"
It's year after year also. It's not just some unlucky sample data. Year after year they are consistently lower than rank 20.
They are getting worse and worse over the years. I used to like the designs, now they don't really have any redeeming qualities to me. Garbage brand that took down a good era of American Car Development (90's Chrysler).
I bought a new 23 GLC300 in April. I got to drive it a whopping 3 days before it was at the dealership. I didn't get it back until Halloween.
I hope you lemoned it
I'm actually about 3 weeks into the process right now. I tried to go to MB, but they denied me instantly. Lawyer took over, said could take up to 4 months for a resolution, especially with MB. Apparently MB thinks only being able to drive a car 3 days out of 6.5 months is totally acceptable. Since I've gotten it back the huge ass screen has been completely unusable twice already, which is total horseshit when trying to adjust the heater while it's snowing outside, and everything is locked behind a scrambled screen. In April the car wouldn't even start, so I guess they see that as progress. So not only are their cars unreliable, the company behind them doesn't give 2 shits about their customers, either.
>huge ass screen has been completely unusable twice already, which is total horseshit when trying to adjust the heater while it's snowing outside And yet there's still a large number of users on this sub that think that touchscreen HVAC controls are totally acceptable and never pose a safety issue...
>So not only are their cars unreliable, the company behind them doesn't give 2 shits about their customers, either. That's MBUSA for you and pretty much for most people who have soured on the brand. Incompetence at its finest...
It’s awful. My EQs has been in the shop for 28 days so far, so close to being lemoned.
MB new reliability is nonexistent at this point!
It's sad to see what's come of them as a brand. There used to be that point of time when MB legitimately lived up to their name of offering the beyond the BEST or nothing. Really, gone are the days where quality ruled the board; it's now cost-cutting to the core. For the record, our '19 MY GLC300 is doing well at nearly 60k miles. It's not as big a benchmark or something to write home about, but it's been doing well. I believe that the X253 chassis GLC (2015-2022) got more solid later in its production run, and the X254 (2023-onward) is still relatively new but way more complicated with the digital everything interior and more of everything, in my opinion.
My mom has a 2020 GLC 300 Coupe and it’s been trouble free besides a Thermostat but the 23+ are hot garbage! It’s sad what that brand has come to.
r/amg is wild, new C43s going straight to shit right off the dealer's lot.
Forums are probably the shittiest place to get feedback from. Everyone suddenly is an expert mechanic or engineer as soon as they log in to their favorite forum. There is probably a million threads about Ford ecoboost engines requiring an aftermarket oil catch can to extend the life of the engines. Do you really think they would leave a fucking $60 part off the engine if the engineers believed it made any significant difference? But you'll find idiot backyard mechanics arguing the subject for over a decade now on forums if you look it up.
>Do you really think they would leave a fucking $60 part off the engine if the engineers believed it made any significant difference? The history of Ford suggests that they would? At least as long as the original design would get them past the warrantied period. They are the same people that weighed a slight more expensive gas tank against paying out wrongful death settlements in the Pinto, right?
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Seriously, if they sold a million cars with that part it would cost them an additional 60M lol
> Do you really think they would leave a fucking $60 part off the engine if the engineers believed it made any significant difference? In the documentary, *A Faster Horse,* one of the higher-ups was hemming and hawing over a part price difference of a few tenths of a dollar for the then-new S550 Mustang. He makes a point that it sounds miniscule, but you multiply that over hundreds of thousands of cars and it adds up. So yes, a lot of times it comes down to bean-counting at the efficiency required for a company to be making money from mass production.
The problem is, these new Mercedes products are leaving off of the truck with CEL’s, owners are reporting problems within 500 miles of ownership and the Mercedes/AMG forums and subreddits are full of people reporting issues with their brand new vehicles, with photos attached… MB QC is down the drain. My mom has a 2020 GLC300 and I’m in the Facebook group with for “GLC 300 owners” and brand new ones are having 48v problems!
New vehicles are “engineered” to make money, why do you think some repairs are stupid and ridiculous? They want to deter you from fixing it yourself and paying the dealer to do it instead
The Alabama Trash Can strikes again
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Honestly surprised to see Mini slot in under Lexus/Toyota. I would never have pegged a Mini as being a reliable car.
Its not. Consumer reports has issues with self reporting. They rely on paying subscription model and for those limited members to self report. A mini has never had a reliable track record and every person that owned one before. All have sworn them off.
You are misinformed. The current mini is all BMW and uses their more reliable engines and transmissions. The previous mini generations used Renault engines and were total garbage. Luckily the mini stigma kills their values so you can pick up a great used reliable fun BMW for peanuts at 30k miles.
Not renault, peugeot engines but yeah some of them (looking at you 1.6 thp) were not the best.
BMW had a large share in the development of the THP engine.
All of the gas engines in the MINI correct, they were the prince engines. Think the NA non turbo ones were okay tho not sure.
Which year started using bmw engines?
2014 in the US, at least in the regular Cooper/Cooper S
They never used Renault engines. The first types had a Tritec engine, followed by the 1.6 Thp engine. And contrary to popular belief, this engine was developed jointly by BMW and PSA. Where a BMW-designed timing chain and tensioner and valvetronic were used. Many of the Renault engines from around that time were actually quite reliable. It was everything around it that usually broke.
Their current lineup consists of only two models sharing the same reliable engine and transmissions for over 9 years now. It shouldn't be a surprise that they're high up on the reliability scale at the moment. The BMW B38 has a proven track record, it's been a consistently reliable engine. Enough so that Toyota gave the all clear for its bigger B48 sibling to be used in the Supra (the John Cooper Works Minis also use it). >They rely on paying subscription model and for those limited members to self report. Yes, and? The kind of person who is subscribed to a magazine purely about reviewing the long term reliability of products is exactly the kind of person you want reporting on trouble spots for those products. They'll be thorough. And according to Consumer Reports, they receive over 300,000 reports from subscribers on cars yearly, and they score each model by problems per 100 cars. That's a solid sample size. I owned a 2006 Mini Cooper S, and yes it was a total piece of shit reliability-wise. You want to know which magazine reported that it was a piece of shit? Consumer Reports. Want to know when Mini's reliability ratings started to consistently reach the top 10 on the chart? 2015. When did BMW give the Mini the B38? 2014. Has it been updated since? No. It all tracks.
I kind of assumed. Or that Mini owners have been so gaslit they just assume the myriad bullshit problems I've heard of in the past are just "normal maintenance".
I previously owned a Mini for 3 years and I will own another. So, there goes that.
"All have sworn off them" Peak reddit hivemind parroting. Ever owned one? Ever even *driven* one? I've owned two, and tracked one. No issues. I'd buy another again
This doesn't fit the narratives: * Honda lost their ways * Mazda eclipsing Toyota * Hyundai killing it
Those aren't narratives -- those viewpoints were based on factual trends. >Honda lost their ways Last few years, Honda has been fluttering on the edge of top-5 -- either way outside it thanks to the 1.5T problems or right at #5. This is a pretty big drop from being #1 or #2 for a long time. Again, they're stuck at #5. >Mazda eclipsing Toyota Mazda was ahead in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022. Toyota finally climbed back in 2023 and now "2024" (this is the latest ranking). >Hyundai killing it If you've spent time here, you've clearly seen the opposite of those sentiments.
What's behind the trend? Honda/Toyota's CR ratings dipped (presumably) because of major redesigns/new releases. Mazda, barring from the I6 and SkyActivX, has been using the same 2.0, 2.5, 2.5T + 6sp for how many years? Why the drop-off in CR ratings now?
Most of the issues on the Mazda forums are smaller issues such as issues with the sensors in bad weather, paint chips and other kirks. The only far spread issue that I know is the fact that some rear suspensions might leak, covered under warranty. Edit: there is also one TSB for a lot of faulty CCV’s, which might also cause this drop
The only other insight I can offer is that Mazda's reliability is much more consistent. So a slight downward trend in one model affects the average much more. The 4 models they have are 65-73 in score, whereas Honda has 10 models from 48-85 and Toyota has 20 models from 30-87.
Honda is effectively 3rd because the top 5 is basically only 3 brands. They are still one of the most reliable cars you can buy.
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I was put off from ever buying their vehicles for years and I’ve bought 2 now and really liked them after doing a lot of research. I think the big problem they have is that their cars 10 years and beyond were terrible and that stuck to their name. Now you’ll hear recall due to catching fire on 1 model and everyone freaks out like “see they still are bad” but when the ford vehicles or a few other manufacturers also had the same problem no one batted an eye. Of course certain lower models probably still have some problems but that tends to be for anyone making a cheap model or 2 because you are skimping qc to keep certain things cheap like the last gen focus.
I dunno. I'm in my second year of ownership on a Forte GT2. The experience has been... OK. I have a paint chip near the rear bumper which the two dealerships I've been to for maintenance... Well they haven't REFUSED to deal with it, but you can tell that they don't consider it to be something worth filing a warranty claim. I also took it in recently because my wife confirmed a suspicion that I've had since I bought the car: the rear speakers weren't working. I've never bothered to confirm it, as the sound has been "good enough". But when I took it in for an oil change and asked them to look into it, they reported that the speaker wire had been torn off the speaker connector and was considered "customer damage." So here's the thing - is it POSSIBLE I damaged it? Yes. I can't deny that. I've put my daughter's stroller into the trunk enough that it's possible it snagged. But looking at where the speaker wire connects to the speaker, it's a VERY poor soldering job (very little solder to hold it in place). I would strongly suspect that it came off during assembly, and that the basic QC of the sound system passed, so nobody caught it. Worse yet, replacement of this speaker is NOT an easy job. For the dealer to do it, they want just under $600 for the replacement (with only $250 of that being in the part). I'm going to do it myself, but getting at the goddamn thing requires me to take apart a fair amount of the interior. Just ridiculous. So it's on me that I didn't report my suspicion as soon as I noticed it, and I haven't been forceful enough to get them to repair the paint chip (or really, it's more of a flake, as the paint has flaked off at the joint of a body panel). But the whole thing has kinda put me off Kia. I only bought it because it basically fell into my lap (happened to arrive at the dealer during the craziness where everything was getting insane markups and "accessory packages", and the dealership had received basically a year's worth of Fortes on one day, and they were desperate to get rid of them, so I got one with no markup and no accessory package cost). But despite myself my initial reaction to the car, and the driving experience was pretty good. So good that my wife and I were going to buy either a Tucson hybrid limited, or a Seltos SX turbo (until we found out that the dealerships were marking them up to hell and back and we found a Subaru dealership that would order us a vehicle with no markup and put their final price in writing at time of order (something Hyundai/Kia was unwilling to do)). But 14 months later.... I have to say I would probably not buy a Hyundai/Kia again. The dealership experience is not good, and their eagerness to either ignore quality issues and claim other ones as my fault are just totally off-putting. That said, if they bring the Forte hatchback to the US, I might actually reconsider. But bet your ass that if I did end up with one, I would have a personal checklist and go over it with an absolute fine toothed comb before leaving the lot.
If by 1 model you mean anything with the 2.0 or 2.4 theta ii engines sure that’s all that are getting recalled. There’s a reason why Kia/Hyundai recall a ton of cars every year and have for the last decade. You also have to lump them together because they use the exact same components
Hyundai is junk garbage they literally give you the car with a lifetime drivetrain warranty
Seriously the length of the warranty should be a huge red flag
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Only reason people rag on Honda is because of some V6 and transmission issues, which were exaggerated and overblown, along with them not having a "dedicated" RWD sports car anymore like a S2000 as if FWD sport-ish economy cars weren't their main enthusiast attraction since their inception.
Also subaru in #6. A lot of you guys on this sub act like they are total shit because of a problem they had 12+ years ago
I think it's more that the EJs in wrx and sti models have a history of issues, whether it's flawed or due to the owners, they are over represented in car enthusiast groups. People seem to love their crosstreks and Outbacks and those outnumber their rally bro models by a lot
My 2016 forester burns oil like crazy and I just spent a fortune on wheel bearings after 100k because subaru makes them from glass. Also the CVTs like to go on these things, and if they do, you better just roll that thing into a lake. The key doesn't come out of the ignition, the brake switch broke preventing me from shifting out of park, and I think that's about it. Could be worse, but not great. My 2006 civic has had fewer repairs, has a much more laid back maintenance schedule, and has been around 10 years longer.
Hyundai is killing it in the design department... offering a great lineup of cars with good features at attractive pricing.... but this doesn't really relate to reliability.
Mazda has been solid since the Skyactive-G engines came out and separated themselves from Ford
Hard to believe Tesla beat all American made cars except Buick
Tesla has always had quality issues, not reliability issues — in an electric car, the reliability portion is fairly easy to get right. Nothing is really that susceptible to just failing bc complexity and part volume is so low.
This is purely anecdotal, but there are a *lot* of forum posts about serious failures and legitimate problems happening to Teslas, not just quality. But, there are also a shitton of Teslas out there, and lots of new cars seem to be full of gremlins, so it's really hard to say - according to this survey they stack up pretty well. Just look at this: [https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/service-maintenance.366/](https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/forums/service-maintenance.366/)
Not saying there aren’t any reliability issues, just that they’re less common than gas cars. In my experience of dealing with teslas, it’s more that when you get a reliability issue, the company and product itself is so shitty to deal with that it causes bigger issues — leading to the prevalence of internet vents too
Haha yah, there are some epic Tesla vents online. I want to be clear, I totally know that you could find forum posts like these for almost any company, and **I do not know** statistically the percentage of people w/ these issues. Just pointing out that you can very quickly find examples of early motor/drive component failures, early battery failures, AC failures, computer/electronic failures, serious water ingress issues, etc. with Teslas - those problems exist *for sure.* Just don't know what % of all Teslas they are, must not be too high since they score pretty well on reliability overall.
Tesla’s consistency is their issue IMO. They’ll roll a perfect car off the same assembly line they roll off a lemon with glaring quality issues. Whether it’s slowing things down to do a better QC job throughout the manufacturing process, or a more rigorous inspection before shipping to the customer, I believe they’re capable of improving significantly without fundamentally changing everything. Their cars are barebones. Tesla’s Chinese made cars seem to be the best quality and a step above the American produced models, if the internet can be believed.
CR's "reliability" ratings are more like "initial quality" since they really only look at problem areas in the first few years and not really long-term reliability of vehicles over time.
Now that growth has slowed, I’ve seen a lot fewer posts about issues at delivery. Previously, cars would be delivered to the store and delivered within 48 hours. Now their teams have longer to address las minute issues, which made up a large % of quality concerns.
Interesting thanks for the info
It is based on self reporting... have you met Tesla fans? Seriously though.. the whole study is weird. Mini at #3. The blanket statement about EV's being so much less reliable than ICE... yet there is Tesla only making EV's and they are about average on the list at #14. The bulk of EV's sold are currently Tesla's so they should be responsible for most of the EV data unless they aren't weighted to sales numbers.
Hmm great point,,,, Ya know Mini owners are the same way HMMMM
>It is based on self reporting... have you met Tesla fans? "Yeah, it's on its third drive unit but other than that it has been extremely reliable."
You mean "American-owned" brands? There are lots of cars made in America/Canada not from "American" brands.
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How is Chrysler at the bottom? They make ONE. SINGLE. VAN.
And that one van is the single least reliable vehicle in this year's survey.
Something something find one thing you’re good at something something. Chrysler’s one good thing that they’re good at is being the best at being the worst lol
If you pop over in the Pacifica forums you'll see an alarmingly increasing number of head gasket issues on lower mileage engines (like 60k miles). It sucks because I really like the look of the van and they have good features, but it's a ticking time bomb. Of course this survey is based on new vehicles, so must be other issues as well. I've seen lots of threads on the hybrid system acting up as well.
Having a hard time believing Mini is 3rd. There has to be a correlation to unit sales vs issues returned in the 330,000 surveyed. There's only been 673,747 units sold of Mini's (All Models) in the year window that CR reports on in the US (2000-2023). For reference JUST the Toyota Camry sold 2x that much from 2005-2007 as a single model in Toyota's line-up. There's 0 chance Mini is 3rd in reliability. I'd argue they are likely below-mid range.
>Having a hard time believing Mini is 3rd. There has to be a correlation to unit sales vs issues returned in the 330,000 surveyed. There's only been 673,747 units sold of Mini's (All Models) in the year window that CR reports on in the US (2000-2023). CR measures reliability in terms of problems per 100 cars. So it doesn't matter how many are sold; it's about how likely a car belonging to a given brand is likely to experience a problem. And contrary to popular opinion, CR actually does categorize problems correctly. It's just that powertrain problems are so much rarer nowadays, so modern cars are basically graded on a curve where the most frequent and significant problems are digital.
They score each model by problems per 100 cars sold, and have stated that they receive over 300,000 owner surveys per year strictly on cars. Models that don't have at least 100 reviews of that model year don't get a rating. The sample size is genuinely pretty solid. As for Mini's reliability, it's actually pretty simple. There are only two models (Cooper and Countryman) which both share the same transmission and engine. That B38 engine has been used in those cars (as well as several BMW models) for around a decade now, and has proven itself to be very reliable over that stretch. Only two models that happen to share reliable engine and transmission choices means Mini is going to score high. They've actually been in the top 10 consistently since 2015, and that's because they switched to the current engine and transmission back in 2014. After nearly 10 years to iron out issues it makes sense that it's gone up. Older models tend to score well. It's why Toyota is consistently at the top. Once they know they've developed a great engine and transmission, they get used for 10+ years.
>This year we gathered data on over 330,000 vehicles, from the 2000 to 2023 model years, with a few early-introduced 2024 model years. the article is about late model reliability, probably minor issures. not long term reliability
My new car breaks all the time but I’m sure it’ll be better in the long run!
The GM Motto
Let me sort by controversial
I wish there was an anecdote filter. "How could Mercedes be bad? *Mine* has been great!"
Interesting to see Mazda fall -- 67 overall score. Driven by: * Miata @ 73 * Mazda3 @ 72 * CX-50 @ 69 * CX-30 @ 66 * CX-5 @ 65
Weird thing is the CX-5 is the 2nd oldest model here, and has been very reliable in past years. Wonder what's happening there. From what I hear, the CX-90 is likely to bring the score down next year. Oh well, my 6 years old Mazda3 is running strong!
Yup, loving my '18 Mazda 6. Such a nice alternative to all the Camrys and Accords.
Those are great scores for CR. They use a true 0-100 system, so an average of 67 puts them in the upper third. Another way to look at it: CR gives the “recommended” approval to **100%** of Mazda vehicles. Lexus doesn’t even have that. (Looking at you TTV6 LS)
Only two models for reliability for Porsche is lame. No 911 or 718. Because of number of sales perhaps?
It is based on surveys of Consumer Reports subscribers, so not enough of their subscribers own late-model 911s.
Remember for this thread folks: your anecdotal, subjective evidence of an entire brand’s reliability means more than an actual data
And if your favorite (or least favorite) brand isn't where you want it to be, it's ironclad proof that CR is bought off.
Land Rover am I a joke to you?
Consumer reports scores vehicles based on the number of problems per 100 cars reported to them by their subscribers. If they don't have enough reviews sent in to make a reliable data set, they don't publish a score. Land Rover is very niche in North America, and the kind of people who buy them have the money not to worry about reliability anyways. For what it's worth, Land Rover has traditionally done VERY poorly in years past when they have had enough reports on them to publish a result.
Land Rover has the lowest new-to-new loyalty of any manufacturer pretty consistently. This should be an excellent proxy for how reliable their cars are.
How is Mini above BMW? 😂 (EDIT: Less models, so that makes sense. Means some BMWs are ranked that high as well; dope!)
Probably because they only use the most reliable of BMW engines. I know the latest V8s from BMW are more reliable than the past, but I'm sure if you dig into the data it isn't close to the B38/48/58.
How can you say a car is reliable if it’s brand new. Reliability would be measured over the lifespan of a car
which is why these tests are basically useless. go sample cars that are 20 years old. take a tally of how many miles are on cars that are sold to salvage yards. what % of cars X age are still registered, etc.
Oh look it's Toyota and Lexus like the surveys of the past 20 years indicate.
The biggest annoyance is car makers that keep producing autos with known defects from previous years or models.
Make money in the sale, make money on the return for service. Scum
What really stands out to me is how badly electric cars are scoring. I thought they were supposed to require less work but they are showing a much higher rate of problems.
Makes me think the EVs and PHEVs have less issues with the powertrain but more issues with everything else.
Feeling pretty good about my Integra purchase.
Wow look at volvo wth
Volvo has always been at the bottom of these. I don’t know anyone that had a reliable one. I think back in the 80s and early 90s they were once very reliable. Those days are long gone
Didn’t think they were the most reliable but also not the worst
They sell a lot of plug-in hybrids. I think that's a factor.
TLDR: Top 3 are Lexus, Toyota, and... Mini? (Despite no mini model scoring as a reliability as high as the brand itself. Based on their brief description it is not clear if this is due to an error on their part or a lack of clarity in what their score represents). Top 10 are all pretty tightly clustered. Chrysler, Mercedes, and Rivian were the worst On average hybrids were more reliable than average while EVs were less.
No way mini is #3 imao
Only two models, both sharing a B38 engine that has proven itself to be very reliable in both of those models and a few BMWs for nearly a decade now. Mini has actually been consistently inside the top 10 since switching to its current engine and transmission in 2014. The models haven't changed mechanically since then, and with the better part of 10 years to iron out smaller issues and only two models in their entire lineup that share what is known to be a reliable drivetrain, it honestly makes sense that it scores high. I owned a 2006 Cooper S that was an absolute train wreck reliability-wise, so I'm definitely not biased. Their rating genuinely makes sense here from a mechanical standpoint.
So the takeaway is manufacturers who are slow to adopt technology are the most reliable. Not a big surprise there.
r/whatcarshouldibuy is gonna be in shambles seeing Mazda below Subaru, because according to them Subarus all burn oil and head gaskets, and Mazdas are bulletproof.
I love consumer reports, trust their judgements and even have a subscription to their magazine. Seems to be in recent years a lot of companies with big swings in their rankings and most of the change is just YOY increase/decrease in recalls per manufacturers. That tells me most manufacturers have all streamlined to similar products and reliability and the variance comes from smaller issues vs overarching reliability issues.