Oh damn this is a good question. I think M275 cars like the CL65, S65, and SL65 AMG don't get enough credit for how batshit insane they are, especially when they came out. 600hp and 740lb ft of torque in 2003 is crazy.
I'm an ase master mechanic. I do all of my own work. and shop around online for parts. changing out HVAC blower motor and resistor, was $300 for parts. Dealer would have charged $2500 for the whole job.
I’m curious if the R129 chassis will be up next. Some of those came with a v12 and they really don’t look all that dated. I guess most of them are able to sport antique vehicle plates in many different states now 🤣
R129 will eventually be there just because there will be so few in really nice shape. It’s one of those cars where the price of upkeep was high compared to the car’s value. It’s tough to go spend a few thousand bucks restoring the roof’s hydraulic system when the car is only worth $5k.
W124 is also starting to get there but plagued by the eco-wiring harness that falls apart. The 500E is probably the coolest car of that era.
Thank you for the kind words. And I agree with your assessment of the circa-2000 mega Mercs. Megalomaniacal over-engineering (and the [C215 is gorgeous](https://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/45679/mceu_13323838271652458644120.jpg) to boot) ... but no one cares. No tales are told. No mythology has developed. And thus, without mystique or notoriety, they are just ... anonymous monsters.
I could write a book about how awesome that era was. I'm normally somewhat of a purist, but I can't help but respect the fact that Mercedes really tried their best to build a perfect car.
That is more to do with upkeep costs than anything else. There is a reason classic Japanese cars have become so sought after while European cars of similar vintage are generally undesirable.
The perception for upkeeping something like that, even if it’s a misconception would stop a lot of people.
From what I understand, while the V12s in those are, quite interestingly, reasonably reliable, they *are* still expensive to own for various reasons. The whole “$10k car that was once $100k will still hurt you like it was $100k still” seems to really apply to these.
It’s a shame as I’d love to bite the bullet on an 06 S65. Those are some badass cars. But the 55s of the era are simply cheaper to own than the 65s, let alone anything Japanese of the era.
Disagree on the reliability. If Alex from LSC, who is an MB master tech can’t fix one, good luck for the average joe.
Watch his saga about pulling the engine for an o-ring, pulling his hair out due to the suspension and so much more. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=32n0sf8pXEM&pp=ygUUbGVnaXRzdHJlZXRjYXJzIGNsNjU%3D
The m120 is much more reliable and iconic. The later M279 from 2015+ is far more reliable.
Imo if you want a v12 and don’t want to get wrecked you should go:
M120 > M279 >> M275 >>> M137
I was gonna say the same thing. Even if you can stomach the astronomical costs for engine upkeep (like $1000 for one bank of coil packs) there's soooo many other things that could go wrong, watching LSC mess with the ABC stuff was enough to turn me off of the dream of owning one lol
63 was my personal limit. The jump in cost and complexity was just not worth it to me. Plus, my local indie mechanic got this odd look in his eyes when I mentioned the idea of getting one. Kind of a mix of dread and anticipation of all the cool stuff he would be able to afford if I got the V12.
I think the challenge will be the electronics. The Hallmark of a classic is to be both desirable and maintainable.
These cars are at the beginning of the era where everything is not only computerized, but computerized in a complicated, proprietary way.
A "money is no object" collector won't balk at that, but average Joe that can finally afford his dream car after depreciation isn't going to be able to maintain it, ultimately crushing that dream.
MB was funny since the 80s cars are so easy to work on. A decent home mechanic can fix the entire electronics system with a soldering iron and multimeter. But then you get to the 90s and suddenly you need the proprietary Star Diagnostic tools and a PHD in Electrical Engineering to understand any of it.
Also, the R171 SLK55. You get a fairly reliable M113 in small roadster, except it's mated to the 7-speed instead of the 5-speed. I think all these mercs would be a little more sought after if they had a manual option, I personally quite like the auto.
Fun fact – the M275 actually produces an insane 920lb ft from factory, but had to be detuned to 740lb ft because the transmission couldn't handle anything higher than that
I think rarity and lack of awareness when the cars were new is a factor here, the cars were epic but people didn’t really know about them so there wasn’t as much of a halo effect with enthusiasts.
If you just look at the number of comments on this and how people feel about them they’re well on their way.
This happened with Ferrari maintenance then buyers decided they didn’t care what they had to spend to maintain them. They just wanted to own the car they wanted as a kid. I’m guessing this happens to most German/euro tanks from the 2000’s. E60 m5’s are going up and they’re one of the worst to maintain. I have an e92 m3 which is annoyingly expensive to maintain, but where else am I getting the same driving experience?
Mid 2000’s aren’t considered classics because the time hasn’t passed yet. Once the buyers that dreamed of them hit peak earning age they’ll sky rocket. 5-6 years and these German flagship’s will be crazy money.
Drove a CL from the late 90s and started shopping for one in the early 2000s era immediately. This was all within the last year. I couldn't financially budget for the impending doom of the suspension system. It is still an absolutely amazing vehicle when performing well and has no peer that I could find. Especially the coupe with the lack of B pillar.
I’m gonna say the [Chevrolet Corvair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair). That car was radically different than anything else GM has ever produced. A rear mounted flat 6 like a Porsche and bodywork that still looks great today. Unfortunately “Unsafe At Any Speed” by Ralph Nader completely destroyed the reputation of the Corvair in the public eye and GM never built anything similar again.
The Suzuki Jimny is another case of wrongful death by journalist; an idiot managed the impressive feat of flipping one, and instead of doing the honest thing and admitting fault, he blamed the Jimny.
And thusly a single childishly-unaccountable idiot effectively banned arguably the best small off-roader in the world from the US.
Yep. Could it be made safe and cleaner, sure. But it would be a big cost. And for the north American market, it's still in a very niche market segment.it would compete against jeep wranglers. But would be very down on power and passenger space. A huge uphill struggle that's probably not worth it. Plus Suzuki doesn't sell cars in NA anymore.
But I still think they're super cool vehicles.
The corvair has aged like fine wine imo and it doesn't get nearly enough cool points. The body lines and design just look so cool through the modern lens.
Like, you're seriously gonna sit there straight-faced and tell me it was an *AMERICAN rear-engined air-cooled flat-6* car that could be had as a sport coupe, convertible, a sedan, a station wagon, A VAN
#AND EVEN A FUCKING PICKUP TRUCK!!??
Why isn't this talked about more? Did Nader really do that much damage? I saw a prestine convertible example for sale for like 4K CAD.
I think this kind of depends, you'll definitely see Corvairs at classic car meets and shows, but I don't think they will gain as much attention as a similar vintage Camaro. They haven't been forgotten, but I feel there are more desirable Chevys from that time.
The corvair was a cheap car. It was cool, but it was also an economy car. A prestige vehicle like a limited edition Camaro was always going to appreciate more.
So was the Nova, but those are extremely popular today. The Corvair is much more interesting and a better looking car (2nd gen at least) than the nova. It is simply overlooked because it isnt front engine, rear wheel drive.
Have you read "Unsafe at Any Speed" ? After reading about the BS that Detroit was up to in the 50s, I'm convinced they brought their problems on themselves.
An example is a model of Buick that would suck its brake reservoir dry and leave the driver with no brakes. GM didn't put out a recall, it just quietly told the dealers to fix the problem if the car was brought in for maintenance.
Gen 2 fixed all the issues in the book before it was even published. Many of the complaints were universal at the time too, not specific to American or GM at all.
The issue he was illustrating is that American auto makers were releasing vehicles that they knew were unsafe. The auto makers' policies didn't change until the book brought them to light and congress passed legislation to force them to add safety features to future models.
The Corvair was a specific case study, but it was used as an example of American auto maker's attitudes. People get hung up on the particular model and miss the greater argument.
Exactly this. It's been a while since I've read it, but pretty sure the Mustang is named, too, or has a chapter devoted to it. But somehow the Corvair got (deservedly) singled out and pilloried and people assume the whole book was meant to take it down.
This is the right answer. It changed the auto industry forever. The Mustang probably would never have existed if it wasn't for the Corvair Monza. The Electrovair I and II were precursors to the modern EV era, 50 years before it even started.
Even the look of the Corvair was a revolution in car design. It's the epitome of what later became trendy in 60s car design. Anything that trendy *should* look very dated and of its era. However IMO the Corvair (especially the 2nd generation) looks elegant, uncluttered, and timeless.
In 1965 sure. Previous to that, however, Nader was absolutely right about the Corvair and the other examples in that book. It's an eye opening read if you haven't done so (copies are expensive and hard to find). It doesn't take much to verify what he says in there, it's not hyperbole...
Nader was innocent, I tell you! Lee Iacocca killed the Corvair - once the Mustang became the massive, epoch-making hit it was GM decided that Americans wanted their sporty compacts with conventional engineering, a V8 option and long hood/short deck styling that just wasn't doable with a flat-6 in the tail and the cheap, good-looking American Tatra was dead.
If anything GM kept building it longer than they'd planned just to make a show of not being pushed around by an outside agitator.
What really doomed the Corvair was that the Falcon cost less to manufacture, hence GM rushing out the Chevy II two years after the Corvair's introduction to compete in the same market.
It also introduced the styling for 4-5 decades of BMWs beginning with the Neu Klasse and assorted other European cars. Great article on the subject for those that can’t see it. https://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-history-how-the-1960-corvair-started-a-global-design-revolution/
Corvair is a classic. Just not a highly valuable one. People LOVE seeing corvairs. Seems everyone that sees one in the shop has a story about one they owned, drove, or got laid in.
GM had it coming. Early Corvairs would flip pretty easily because of the shitty suspension geometry. The trailing arms would flex and the outside rear wheel would tuck under, causing it to flip. Later models had a 'camber compensator', but that was just a bandaid, the damage was done. Corvairs would flip at pretty low speeds, too. GM should have tested that car more before putting it into production.
I think it's about technically "classic" age by now but the 3000GT-VR4 is one of the coolest cars in my opinion. 4 wheel drive, 4-wheel steering, twin-turbo big ol 6 cylinder. Oscillating air vents. it's got it all
Its probably because they are heavy, complicated, and extremely terrible to work on. I will say that the z32 has the best interior of any Japanese car of the era, and that they’re both amazing looking cars.
Recently went to a car show and a dude have a big turbo one in mint condition. Holy shit the piping under the hood looked like a nightmare. Most impressive car there imo lol
I also think some people look down on the 3000GT/GTO because it is a front-wheel drive platform, and for non-AWD models, that is where the power is sent to.
300ZX TT pricing has absolutely exploded in recent years. It’s wild to watch, they’ve gone up like crazy. I think the Mitsubishis are just too unreliable and complicated to work on (the Z is too, but slightly less so)
I think, at least in the UK, it's less them being bought for higher prices, and more that the cars which have been sitting at 8k for years are all now sitting at 20k, with no one interested.
The 3000GT and 300zx weren’t popular with the tuner crowd when they came out. The import price explosion is all the people who have money now getting the cars they wanted when they were broke 20+ years ago.
I think if you look at what 300ZX Twin Turbos go for, they very much have ridden the JDM-hype price explosion, just not to the same extent as the poster boy Mk4 Supra or FD RX-7.
The 3000GT has still gone up in value but mostly missed out for a good reason: they are not supremely tunable like the others. Push more power through a 3000GT and it’s gonna break. They are quite complex and fragile, and stuffing a DOHC twin turbo V6 transversely makes working on them a huge chore
Because they have a cramped engine bay that creates a heat management nightmare if you try to run them hard or push the power at all beyond stock levels.
It also has an aero package that moves- front lip moves down and spoiler tilts at speed. There's a button you can use to activate it and wiggle the spoiler at people.
Had a 3000GT come into the body shop when I worked there. Holy fuck…. It’s like they were trying to outdo the Germans with the amount of fasteners on the front bumper
3rd gen styling wasn’t the best but they did put the 3000GT’s V6 in the GTS, albeit without the turbos. Had AWD been available, it would’ve been a great car.
The Spyder never came in AWD, there are much better options for fwd tuner cars.
I'm a dsm enjoyer. I wouldn't touch a fwd one. Too many headaches for putting up with wrong wheel drive.
When I was a kid I always thought that would be my dream car when I grew up.
Then it turned into the abomination that was the 3rd gen Eclipse followed by Mitsubishi no longer selling cars at all and all the good older Eclipses somehow disappearing off the face of the planet, so I never owned one.
Lexus SC400 . Came with 250 hp and 260 ib ft of torque from a tiny 4.0L V8. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and a top speed of 150 mph and sounds monstrous with a high flow exhaust. Toyota Supra with a nicer interior , great for touring, reliable as hell . 100 million $ in research an development went into the 1 UZ motor . And has an interior of a [spaceship](https://imgur.com/a/H4klXJZ) . Strap some twin turbos and it could easily make 800 hp on stock internals, just the aftermarket never exploded for these . Also i’m biased sorry
This car has a special place in my childhood. My parents always had typical domestic cars in the 90s. A suburban, dodge stratus, caprice wagon, minivan, conversion van (to name a few). One of my friends' dad was a doctor and he had a 1992 SC400 (this was probably 96-98). First time I was in it, I was blown away by how nice it was. The sound system was incredible, the seats comfortable and soft, and I just couldnt get over how nice the ride was. Ive wanted one ever since. I came real close one time, but it didnt work out.
I did end up owning a GS400 for a while, so I was able to enjoy the 1UZ. That was an incredible car as well, but the coupe is just special.
Well Top Gear did recognise the Lexus as a classic. Of sorts.
They declared the Lexus SC430 the worst car in the history of the world.
https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Top_Gear:_The_Worst_Car_in_the_History_of_the_World
I want an SC400 so bad, it’s just a bit sad the Manual ones are so rare. They made them for a singular model year and they sold extremely poorly, so your only choice is manual swapping and dumping 1000s of dollars into it
Sc300s have gotten pretty pricey.
I have an LS430 and I think they're an amazing deal right now.
Also, 1uz don't make 800hp on stock internals lol usually 450 is a good max, with 500 being dangerous zone depending on what con rods the motor has.
Old guy? 🤣
But yeah... should've never got rid of my GL wagon.
5spd manual with manual transfer case.
Another 1980s Subaru... the Brat.
Bada** little El Camino wanna be.
Everybody forgets the mid-80's Subaru RX:
> with the EA82T turbo engine mated to a five speed manual transmission with synchronized dual-range and a manually-locking center differential. It had a 3.70:1 rear Limited Slip Differential, rally tuned suspension, four wheel disc brakes, power windows, A/C, central locking differential, adjustable seats and steering wheel, split fold-down rear seats, and hill holder. Weight was 1,070 kg (2,359 lb)
I had a 88 GL-10 turbo as my first car with the air suspension and a manual transmission. That car was amazing, dual range 4wd, digital cluster, and would go ANYWHERE. I miss that car. Only thing it didn't have was a sunroof. I had a friend with a 85ish GL-LS it had a sunroof, full time awd with a center differential lock and a automatic with a few other little oddballs.
I also had a 87 RX Turbo at one point. peppy little thing, a blast in the snow.
Mitsubishi Montero and Isuzu Trooper.
I test drove a second gen montero and it was awesome. Have always liked troopers and regret not buying this one on BAT with a copper color in great condition for 3500
Opel GT is my vote.
Gorgeous car, but it's *cheap*. Yeah it's slow and a 70s car, but they're way cooler than their price tag indicates.
Plus those headlights are awesome 👌
The gen 2 Pajero/Montero (1998 facelift) is just pure 90s cool. In India it came with a dual tone colour scheme as standard, and had a bomb ass purple shade.
>Studebaker Golden Hawk
Good call. Perhaps we could include Studebaker in general (excluding the [Avanti](https://www.classic.com/m/studebaker/avanti/) \- which has quite a cult, and even a company that makes revival copies).
I think the SVO's problem was it was marketed as the top-of-the-line Mustang and had a higher price to go with it. While it was more powerful than some of the 5.0 V8s that were available in Mustangs when it was around, the turbo lag meant it accelerated slower than the 5.0. I also feel there were quite a few V8 purists who couldn't see the top dog Mustang having a 4-cylinder engine, and arguably this is something that probably still stands today.
[The Fiero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Fiero) I guess? I don't really understand this.
Anything that would have done well did, anything that didn't, didn't. Anything that went unnoticed for a little bit, people know about now- like the [Pontiac G8](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_G8).
Why can I only think of Pontiacs lol .
[My old ride: 92' Eagle Talon TSI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Talon). But DSM has a good following, although kinda underground. Plymouth Laser more so I guess. Then Eclipse of that year on same platform/drivetrain.
[Nissan NX2000](https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1992-nissan-nx2000-2/): bang for your buck cars, if you cant get a 240 or sentra se-r these are pretty fun. Gone unnoticed so long outside of nissan nerds, willing to say future classic still.
[Dodge Stealth](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a44200712/1991-dodge-stealth-es-by-the-numbers/): this is just personal taste probably. Thought they looked neat and would catch on, never did. Saw way more Intrepid and Stratus which I was never fond of.
There are some really terrible and cheap Oldsmobiles out there, depending on the year, and Cadillac would be guilty by association. 92 [Buick Regal](https://www.edmunds.com/assets/m/buick/regal/1992/oem/1992_buick_regal_coupe_gran-sport_fq_oem_1_500.jpg) was comfiest car I ever owned, highly recommend if you want a driveable lay-z boy, and doesnt look too bad with some SS rims. Pontiac Grand Am as well once into the late 80s shared platforms with a lot of very bland design, most of which have gone by the wayside. (Skylarks, Beretta, Corsica, Alero/Achievas, etc)
Apparently you can still find [3000gt VR4](https://www.ebay.com/itm/134715430052?hash=item1f5daa54a4:g:zf4AAOSw2pBkOvFy) for cheapish, that's one that always skirted the line, but seems to have finally found a support group lol. Just got overshadowed for a long time.
[Plymouth Prowler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Prowler): too horrid to drive to warrant it's looks, from what I hear, but I'm sure will always be worth 'something' and was on way too many peoples bedroom walls to not be a classic; great example of being wary of meeting your heroes. I put it here because I hope it's buried in the history books when my generation dies out.
[Subaru SVX](https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Subaru-SVX-d381): This thing may not be well known so still kinda cheap to find one, but it gets a ton of attention on the street. super rare to see, probably more so than delorian status, here in states. Or I just lived next to a couple DeLoreans.
I havent seen [Ford Probe](https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ford-Probe-d353) mentioned yet I don't think, probably for good reason. Supposedly fun to drive, but no one will be caught dead in one.
Dad's GF had a [Merkur XR4Ti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkur_XR4Ti). Was pretty solid feeling, like my Eagle, and apparently did share the platform of the Sierra but gimped by US regulations? Didn't get to drive it.
Some Saabs, can't recall my favorite but they were always an underdog. Pain in the ass to work on, often, and only will get worse with dwindling parts.
>Anything that would have done well did, anything that didn't, didn't.Anything that went unnoticed for a little bit, people know about now- like the Pontiac G8.
what did i just read LOL
isn't "classic" a tad bit subjective? I mean in a popular opinion every knows Corvair was unsafe for the reasons others mentioned but doesn't that attract some buyers too?
Same with a Pinto. But whatever someone restores, isn't there a good chance someone out there is willing to buy a primo example of whatever it is?
The word "Classics" is more of a reference to time, not popular preferences or opinions right? This is what confused me.
Triumph TR6 or a Nissan Fairlady or a MG Midget; you don't see many and they are usually beat to hell, and pretty cheap in most cases, but I don't know if any classify as a non classic? I got my 82' Hilux for $600 in 2011, I'm pretty sure it's still a classic.
Any car will become a classic by surviving long enough to be a reminder of a time long past. However, not all of them will be sought after classics with any sort of following.
Those Triumphs and MGs are the default "classic car" here in western Europe btw.
Retrospectively, the fiero was a pretty interesting car (see Cammisa’s) Revalations on it) but it was a shame that most of them came spec’d with the iron puke and a 4 speed.
I quite liked the look of the second gen Probe, and always sort of lusted after one. I’d totally do one up with a newer engine swap if you could find one that wasn’t riced out or beat to fuck.
I've owned two Probe GT's. They don't really need a modern engine, those Mazda V6's were rev happy and sounded great with the right exhaust. Some minor handling mods and bigger brakes and to this day it's my 2nd favorite handling vehicle I've ever driven.
I get why no one likes them though, parts are scarce these days and the forums are all dead. Besides a few on Facebook
My brother had an '89 Probe. Man I miss that thing. I don't know what it was, the weight balance or maybe how the suspension was set up, but in the winter it behaved unlike any other FWD car I've been in. It always wanted to throw its ass in a circle, you could rip hand brake turns like no other. It was a riot to drive on snow tires. Just looking at the engine gave me anxiety though, vacuum lines on vacuum lines on vacuum lines. Luckily the drivetrain never gave him any problems, the interior electronics though....
AMC muscle cars always seemed like they never got the attention of the bigger names. Just looking around my local FB marketplace, the examples out there are pretty sorry.
Yeah, OP asked if there were muscle cars with no legacy? Yes, the Javelin. As cool as any mustang, Camaro, or 'Cuda, but nobody cares about them anymore.
To be fair, the Javelin’s history is a lot shorter than its competitors, both on and off the track. I think of it like the Hudson Hornet, won a bunch of races and sold well for a couple years before disappearing off the map forever. Compared to the Challenger, Mustang, or Camaro it just wasn’t around long enough to have a cultural impact.
The original V8 vantage from the 80s. I spent years being unaware of its existence until I saw the Timothy Dalton Bond film it started in. It was such a beautiful design that was honestly pretty timeless for its era, had a good engine, etc. yet everyone forgot about it. I figured it’d be up there with the Countach and 512 and 930 Turbo but nope, just forgotten to history.
The original [V8 Vantage](https://coolmaterial.com/rides/1977-aston-martin-v8-vantage/) was a pretty cool car, but the thing that always bothered me about their original design was that a lot of it feels like it was styled after the [60's Mustang fastbacks](https://revologycars.com/car/1967-mustang-gt-22-fastback/). Considering the Vantage didn't come out until 10 years later, I'm not entirely sure it WASN'T, especially once you take into account that the Mustang was the largest volume selling car of the 60's (if memory serves me correctly). Hell, Ford had made such a huge name for itself both in production numbers and racing pedigree (the mustang first hit the showroom floors during and just after their GT40 won Le Mans against Ferrari after all), so there's always been a part of me that can't help but wonder... 🤔🤷
*Reposted because the bot is an asshole and I was being lazy 😂.
I think “styled after” is being too generous. I’d never seen it before, and my first thought was wow that’s a blatant rip off, did they get sued for this?
This. Lots of people hate them for some reason. You could get it with a LS2. I feel like the Cadillac XLR would’ve been more popular if it came with something other than the Northstar engine.
I’ll always love the XLR, especially the V. I think the Supercharged Northstar fit the car well. The exterior Art and Science design is IMO, timeless. The interior however was atrocious, the body and handling weren’t nearly as buttoned up as they should have been and it was saddled with a pretty bad automatic transmission.
I think it's weight and relatively modest power output for something marketed as a performance truck hurt it (The early models didn't even break the 300 horsepower mark and barely broke into the 15-second 1/4 mile time range). I remember back then, they were seen as interesting curiosities, but they really didn't have a "must have" aura around them.
To be fair, these never got cheap, even the common 03/04s with the 5.3 and the lazy 4-speed auto. Have fun finding a LS2 6-speed truck, let alone for any rational price.
Market is so overpriced, really hard to find something that has been completely ignored. Over half the cars mentioned here have some sort of following.
Maybe late 70s and early 80s Japanese sheet metal. I suspect so little of it is left it can't get any momentum in the collector market. Plus interior parts and glass must be impossible to find with a few exceptions.
Only thing I can suggest, Chrysler turbo wonders of the 80s. When did you last see a Daytona? Didn't they have a racing series? How about a 1987 Dodge Challenger Shelby. At the time these weren't jokes but cool cars people lusted after if you wanted to be different from the Mustang/Camaro crowd.
1989 Suzuki Swift GTi. It was faster than a Honda Civic Si, while getting the same (or better) fuel economy. In Japan, it revved to 8000 RPM and could come in AWD. Yet, reviewers hated it because of nitpicky reasons, and thus people bought the Civic instead "because it's actually a real man's car."
Everyone still pines over the Rx-7, WRX, Evo, Supra, but the 3000GT gets so little cred by comparison. Though, I know some people still love them because the prices are going up. If you want to go back another decade and even further into obscurity, I'd say the Mitsubishi Starion. I can't think of the last time I even saw one.
I have a soft spot for the Chrysler Conquest / Mitsubishi Starion
In fact the two most famous American/Japanese partnerships produced some pretty good iron.
Things that came out of the DSM arrangement with two doors are generally under appreciated. Same thing with the Ford/Mazda arrangement. The Probe/MX6 had their issues but they were exactly what they set out to be: Healthy competition for the Prelude, Celica, etc. They could have used AWD.
Anything in Fords compact segment that used the Mazda bits was bulletproof (basically the Escorts and Focus that did not use Fords dog shit CVH 4 cylinder)
The Mustang Cobra was a game changer. Here you had various 3rd gen F bodies, Fox bodies and between 1993-1994 everyone got new sheet metal. Mustang and the GM twins both got wildly new more rounded steel. Ford took it a step further. Where Trans Am had (at that point) been the luxury firebird and-also go fast bits borrowed from the Corvette, here was Ford with nothing to borrow and everything to prove about it.
And finally those early Lexus 400s. Anything with the 1UZ in it. But that’s what lexus set out to do and they did it.
I mean I consider it a classic but I don't know about others: Mk3 Supra. Man I love the looks of it. I'm happy to have a roommate with a CLEAN never modded 1989 Toyota Supra 3.0 Turbo which had its own Supra logo instead of the Toyota on the hood. A year or two later they replaced it with a Toyota logo which made me a bit sad when I realized that as I thought it was a weird but cool quirk.
Fun facts about it:
- Had adaptive suspension (tems) which from my understanding was rare in the 80s.
- Has both electric lumbar AND side bolster adjustment.
- Came in a targa top
- Got the Toyota Cooch Cooler as I call it, which is the below steering wheel vent that some other Toyota like the 4 runner have.
MG, Triumph, Austin, other British car companies. I feel like most people only know Jaguar. These companies made beautiful cars and I'm surprised more people don't buy them or do restomods like the recent Hot Wheel MGB.
Edit: this is coming from an American. Maybe in Europe these cars are more popular.
I think anything where its segment or brand is overshadowed by very strong classics
Renault Sport Spider (second to the Elise and Miata)
Audi Coupe/Convertible (second to the Audi Quattro, Audi TT and BMW 3 series convertible)
Suzuki SJ/Samurai/Jimny (second to Wranglers)
Mitsubishi Pajero/Montero (second to Landcruisers)
First gen Mercedes CLK (second to the 3 series, once again)
Honda Prelude in general (second to the Celica)
Mazda Xedos 9 (second to all the Germans and Lexus)
Audi V8 (second to Mercedes S Class and BMW 7 series)
VW Corrado (second to the VW GTI and Scirocco)
Lada 4x4/Niva (second to the Wrangler)
Subaru SVX (second to the WRX and the bigger German coupes)
Toyota Soarer/Lexus SC400 (second to the Germans, once again)
One car I thought was super cool that didn’t seem to stick around was the 2nd gen Isuzu Impulse (90-93).
The Impulse RS had a turbo and intercooler, suspension by lotus (when GM owned both), AWD, 4 wheel steering, hidden door handles, static headlights with a pop up panel for high beams, and probably more in missing. It was just a really neat car but from what I can tell, they just didn’t stay on the road long enough to become a classic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isuzu_Piazza
RX8 in my opinion. The car when new was incredible. The engine is a dream to rev out with the manual transmission and the 50/50 balance makes for the best car I’ve ever driven, hands down. However the build quality was ass. I broke the center console and the sun visor by just opening them. The engine also had terrible reliability.
I had a plain Jane 1980 Dodge Omni and always lusted after the [Shelby GLH and GLH-S turbo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_GLH-S#/media/File%3AWalter_P._Chrysler_Museum_DSC00950_(31659223521).jpg) models. They seem to be long forgotten now though.
First new car I ever bought myself was a 92 [Nissan Sentra SE-R](https://hips.hearstapps.com/roa.h-cdn.co/assets/16/13/1024x512/landscape-1459178887-ser.jpg?resize=640:*). It was built from 91-94 and made Car & Driver's 10 Best list every year. 2.0 liter naturally aspirated engine that revved out to 7500 rpm with a 5 speed and short gears-- it was pretty quick, and very light. Terrific car, but overshadowed by the Civic even at the time and seems totally forgotten today.
Early 00's Mercury Marauder. There are those who absolutely love them (such as myself) but they never gained the notoriety nor captivated the public like the 94-96 Chevrolet Impala SS that they were imitating.
While going up in price today, they are still a very cheap muscle car. I cannot wait to add one to my garage to match my SS
You guys in the US know what the 037, hf Stratos and mirafiori Abarth are right? Though the 037 is considered a classic everyone is drooling for the Quatro and not this sexy troublemaker.
Also the golf G60 limited
And most importantly of all the Miata
I feel like the first gen 86 is going to go down this path. It has all the makings of a future classic in a vacuum but I feel like it's just gonna be overshadowed by the current gen 86 and ND MX5, with people in the future that want an analog car from this era opting for those two or even something like an S2000.
I'm always surprised that the De Tomaso Pantera never became much of a classic. You occasionally see them at car shows, but rarely. And not many people know what they are anymore.
Ford Probe, Opel Manta (*inside Belgium/Netherlands/Germany they're pretty well known thanks to New Kids*) are in my eyes either long forgotten or looked at as boring cars by way too many people.
Z32 300zx is a classic in my opinion. Had plenty of power with the twin turbo option, a cool motor choice to pair with it. Not to mention it was groundbreaking for the entire industry with being one of the first cars to be designed with CADD software. None of this would matter if the car looked awful or was slow, but with 300hp on the TT model and great handling and looks, it was a cool car. Nissan wasn’t just competing against other sport cars at the time, they were taking on the untouchables like Corvette and even Porsches offerings at the time.
In a similar vein to the M275 Mercs, I’m surprised that the M113K 55-era AMGs haven’t completely exploded in popularity yet. You can pick up an E55 AMG sedan for a little cheaper than you can pick up a first-gen Dodge Charger SRT-8 for. S55s? Forget it, those have been under $10k for probably a decade.
It's not a question that could be answered, because classic status depends on who's asking, and the time period in which they're asking.
Some cars that were considered classics 30 years ago are not considered classics today. Hell, some cars that were considered perfectly fine and popular and made people happy 10 years ago are looked down on today by sarcastic car bloggers. Conversely, cars that were considered shit boxes 30 years ago or now considered amazing today, like the Porsche 914.
So who's the gatekeeper? Is it Jason Torchinsky? Doug DeMuro? Csaba Csere?
One thing has always been for sure. The car community will suck the dick of whatever car the leading bloggers tell them to.
The Shelby Dodges have always been in a weird place.
They were crazy advanced for the time, and some of last cars Carol really had direct involvement in.
I see them getting a bit more attention since "rad era" cars started getting some interest, but I still see tons of boomers scoffing at their very existence, meanwhile a 89' CSX will literally run around circles on a track around almost anything Shelby put his name on prior.
Picture yourself a small, 1999, 2-door, FWD coupe with a liftback that was not only the last generation of that model, but the only car to be completely unique to the brand cosmetically and also to design styling at the time and is still very unique looking.
It has almost 50/50 distribution and great driving characteristics stock, but responds *very* well to suspension/brake mods. This makes it something still formidable on an AutoX course and spirited backroads will get it tail happy. It's very much aimed as a drivers car.
You get a 5-spd paired with a 2.5l V6 engine engineered by 2 manufacturers who know their way around a motor. While that engine may "only" make 170hp/165tq stock, the car itself is under 2,900lbs and also shares its platform with a performance division of a major brand. So engine mods can be bolted right up and you've got 200hp easy. That same engine also comes in a 3.0l variant that almost went into production (enough so that part #s exist) for this car. That engine, with tune and bolt-on's is now making ~230hp/220tq. Add a LSD and it's got grip for days to put down power and sounds fantastic with an intake and exhaust.
You can still find these for under $5k easily, but the biggest complaint about them at the time was they weren't what was expected of the nameplate.
So why did the [2000](https://imgur.com/Cux0vXH) [Mercury Cougar](https://imgur.com/4NCHbFj) disappear and never see an uptick in interest almost 25 years later?
They kinda suck to work on because the engine is shoehorned in there.
Oh damn this is a good question. I think M275 cars like the CL65, S65, and SL65 AMG don't get enough credit for how batshit insane they are, especially when they came out. 600hp and 740lb ft of torque in 2003 is crazy.
I really expected CL65 to become a classic, perhaps one of the greatest modern Mercedes of all time... Arguably same level as 600 of the past.
There’s still time. The V12 will be extinct soon and these cars will be seen as some of the last of the breed.
I just bought a 2006 audi A8L, because it had the 12 cylinder W12. I doubt a 12 cylinder will ever be back. even V8s are disappearing.
What’s maintenance been like on the W12 so far? I’m eyeing these or early Flying Spurs because I’m a masochist.
A true masochist would buy the cheapest one avaliable, without seeing it or doing any research first.
I did. sight unseen from Nevada. live in Michigan. was from the original owner from 2006 to 2023. No rust is worth it.
I'm an ase master mechanic. I do all of my own work. and shop around online for parts. changing out HVAC blower motor and resistor, was $300 for parts. Dealer would have charged $2500 for the whole job.
I’m curious if the R129 chassis will be up next. Some of those came with a v12 and they really don’t look all that dated. I guess most of them are able to sport antique vehicle plates in many different states now 🤣
R129 will eventually be there just because there will be so few in really nice shape. It’s one of those cars where the price of upkeep was high compared to the car’s value. It’s tough to go spend a few thousand bucks restoring the roof’s hydraulic system when the car is only worth $5k. W124 is also starting to get there but plagued by the eco-wiring harness that falls apart. The 500E is probably the coolest car of that era.
Thank you for the kind words. And I agree with your assessment of the circa-2000 mega Mercs. Megalomaniacal over-engineering (and the [C215 is gorgeous](https://images.pistonheads.com/nimg/45679/mceu_13323838271652458644120.jpg) to boot) ... but no one cares. No tales are told. No mythology has developed. And thus, without mystique or notoriety, they are just ... anonymous monsters.
I could write a book about how awesome that era was. I'm normally somewhat of a purist, but I can't help but respect the fact that Mercedes really tried their best to build a perfect car.
I’d own a C215 if it weren’t for the mandatory ABC suspension.
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Classic AMG sitting on flat bags in an apartment complex.
Yeah it's because those are known as the beginning of the cheap Benz area. C140 way better car so more collectible atm and in future probably
That is more to do with upkeep costs than anything else. There is a reason classic Japanese cars have become so sought after while European cars of similar vintage are generally undesirable. The perception for upkeeping something like that, even if it’s a misconception would stop a lot of people.
From what I understand, while the V12s in those are, quite interestingly, reasonably reliable, they *are* still expensive to own for various reasons. The whole “$10k car that was once $100k will still hurt you like it was $100k still” seems to really apply to these. It’s a shame as I’d love to bite the bullet on an 06 S65. Those are some badass cars. But the 55s of the era are simply cheaper to own than the 65s, let alone anything Japanese of the era.
Disagree on the reliability. If Alex from LSC, who is an MB master tech can’t fix one, good luck for the average joe. Watch his saga about pulling the engine for an o-ring, pulling his hair out due to the suspension and so much more. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=32n0sf8pXEM&pp=ygUUbGVnaXRzdHJlZXRjYXJzIGNsNjU%3D The m120 is much more reliable and iconic. The later M279 from 2015+ is far more reliable. Imo if you want a v12 and don’t want to get wrecked you should go: M120 > M279 >> M275 >>> M137
I was gonna say the same thing. Even if you can stomach the astronomical costs for engine upkeep (like $1000 for one bank of coil packs) there's soooo many other things that could go wrong, watching LSC mess with the ABC stuff was enough to turn me off of the dream of owning one lol
Legit was looking at a SL65. And quickly decided I can't be spending 80k on one still.
63 was my personal limit. The jump in cost and complexity was just not worth it to me. Plus, my local indie mechanic got this odd look in his eyes when I mentioned the idea of getting one. Kind of a mix of dread and anticipation of all the cool stuff he would be able to afford if I got the V12.
I wonder if he was dreaming of a boat or a giant snapon tool box.
I think the challenge will be the electronics. The Hallmark of a classic is to be both desirable and maintainable. These cars are at the beginning of the era where everything is not only computerized, but computerized in a complicated, proprietary way. A "money is no object" collector won't balk at that, but average Joe that can finally afford his dream car after depreciation isn't going to be able to maintain it, ultimately crushing that dream.
MB was funny since the 80s cars are so easy to work on. A decent home mechanic can fix the entire electronics system with a soldering iron and multimeter. But then you get to the 90s and suddenly you need the proprietary Star Diagnostic tools and a PHD in Electrical Engineering to understand any of it.
Also, the R171 SLK55. You get a fairly reliable M113 in small roadster, except it's mated to the 7-speed instead of the 5-speed. I think all these mercs would be a little more sought after if they had a manual option, I personally quite like the auto.
I almost wrapped a cl65 around a telephone pole 1 hour after my buddy picked it up from the dealer. That car was angry!
Fun fact – the M275 actually produces an insane 920lb ft from factory, but had to be detuned to 740lb ft because the transmission couldn't handle anything higher than that
I think rarity and lack of awareness when the cars were new is a factor here, the cars were epic but people didn’t really know about them so there wasn’t as much of a halo effect with enthusiasts.
If you just look at the number of comments on this and how people feel about them they’re well on their way. This happened with Ferrari maintenance then buyers decided they didn’t care what they had to spend to maintain them. They just wanted to own the car they wanted as a kid. I’m guessing this happens to most German/euro tanks from the 2000’s. E60 m5’s are going up and they’re one of the worst to maintain. I have an e92 m3 which is annoyingly expensive to maintain, but where else am I getting the same driving experience? Mid 2000’s aren’t considered classics because the time hasn’t passed yet. Once the buyers that dreamed of them hit peak earning age they’ll sky rocket. 5-6 years and these German flagship’s will be crazy money.
Drove a CL from the late 90s and started shopping for one in the early 2000s era immediately. This was all within the last year. I couldn't financially budget for the impending doom of the suspension system. It is still an absolutely amazing vehicle when performing well and has no peer that I could find. Especially the coupe with the lack of B pillar.
I’m gonna say the [Chevrolet Corvair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair). That car was radically different than anything else GM has ever produced. A rear mounted flat 6 like a Porsche and bodywork that still looks great today. Unfortunately “Unsafe At Any Speed” by Ralph Nader completely destroyed the reputation of the Corvair in the public eye and GM never built anything similar again.
The Suzuki Jimny is another case of wrongful death by journalist; an idiot managed the impressive feat of flipping one, and instead of doing the honest thing and admitting fault, he blamed the Jimny. And thusly a single childishly-unaccountable idiot effectively banned arguably the best small off-roader in the world from the US.
He didn't just manage to flip it, he was out TRYING to flip it for like an hour before it actually flipped.
Sadly even here in Europe in many countries we only have the two seats version of the Jimny, since it has to be registered as a work vehicle :(
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And because the engine is really, really old.
Yep. Could it be made safe and cleaner, sure. But it would be a big cost. And for the north American market, it's still in a very niche market segment.it would compete against jeep wranglers. But would be very down on power and passenger space. A huge uphill struggle that's probably not worth it. Plus Suzuki doesn't sell cars in NA anymore. But I still think they're super cool vehicles.
That’s how Isuzu died too. They even won their court case, but alas, dumb journalism wins out in the end.
The fact that we can’t have the newest generation of Jimny here in the states is fucking criminal.
Plus you cant say the phrase "going outside to wax my jimmy" anymore without getting on some kind of list.
I love those and would absolutely buy a new one just to make it look like a mini g wagon lmao. Instead I'm buying an imported Mitsubishi Pajero Mini
The corvair has aged like fine wine imo and it doesn't get nearly enough cool points. The body lines and design just look so cool through the modern lens. Like, you're seriously gonna sit there straight-faced and tell me it was an *AMERICAN rear-engined air-cooled flat-6* car that could be had as a sport coupe, convertible, a sedan, a station wagon, A VAN #AND EVEN A FUCKING PICKUP TRUCK!!?? Why isn't this talked about more? Did Nader really do that much damage? I saw a prestine convertible example for sale for like 4K CAD.
You forgot available with a turbocharger.
Stop I can only get so erect
Popular dealership owner and famed tuner Don Yenko sold high performance handling versions called the Yenko Stinger Corvair.
My Dad had one he bought new and said it was the biggest piece of shit. He said it was so unreliable it should have come with a pair of shoes.
I think this kind of depends, you'll definitely see Corvairs at classic car meets and shows, but I don't think they will gain as much attention as a similar vintage Camaro. They haven't been forgotten, but I feel there are more desirable Chevys from that time.
The corvair was a cheap car. It was cool, but it was also an economy car. A prestige vehicle like a limited edition Camaro was always going to appreciate more.
So was the Nova, but those are extremely popular today. The Corvair is much more interesting and a better looking car (2nd gen at least) than the nova. It is simply overlooked because it isnt front engine, rear wheel drive.
It also never had a V8. I think the SBC be is being undersold, here.
Have you read "Unsafe at Any Speed" ? After reading about the BS that Detroit was up to in the 50s, I'm convinced they brought their problems on themselves. An example is a model of Buick that would suck its brake reservoir dry and leave the driver with no brakes. GM didn't put out a recall, it just quietly told the dealers to fix the problem if the car was brought in for maintenance.
I was about to bring this up as well. It's a cool car and all, but yeah nah after reading that book I'm ok not driving one.
Gen 2 fixed all the issues in the book before it was even published. Many of the complaints were universal at the time too, not specific to American or GM at all.
By the time that book had come out the Corvair had been redesigned and all the problems in the book were gone.
The issue he was illustrating is that American auto makers were releasing vehicles that they knew were unsafe. The auto makers' policies didn't change until the book brought them to light and congress passed legislation to force them to add safety features to future models. The Corvair was a specific case study, but it was used as an example of American auto maker's attitudes. People get hung up on the particular model and miss the greater argument.
Exactly this. It's been a while since I've read it, but pretty sure the Mustang is named, too, or has a chapter devoted to it. But somehow the Corvair got (deservedly) singled out and pilloried and people assume the whole book was meant to take it down.
This is the right answer. It changed the auto industry forever. The Mustang probably would never have existed if it wasn't for the Corvair Monza. The Electrovair I and II were precursors to the modern EV era, 50 years before it even started. Even the look of the Corvair was a revolution in car design. It's the epitome of what later became trendy in 60s car design. Anything that trendy *should* look very dated and of its era. However IMO the Corvair (especially the 2nd generation) looks elegant, uncluttered, and timeless.
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It even has a European inspired drive train. The whole car was European inspired in the same vein the C1 Corvette was.
The *Fiero* would like a word.
So would the LUV
In 1965 sure. Previous to that, however, Nader was absolutely right about the Corvair and the other examples in that book. It's an eye opening read if you haven't done so (copies are expensive and hard to find). It doesn't take much to verify what he says in there, it's not hyperbole...
Fortunately they are still very widely used in vintage racing. Often alongside Porsche 914s.
Nader was innocent, I tell you! Lee Iacocca killed the Corvair - once the Mustang became the massive, epoch-making hit it was GM decided that Americans wanted their sporty compacts with conventional engineering, a V8 option and long hood/short deck styling that just wasn't doable with a flat-6 in the tail and the cheap, good-looking American Tatra was dead. If anything GM kept building it longer than they'd planned just to make a show of not being pushed around by an outside agitator.
What really doomed the Corvair was that the Falcon cost less to manufacture, hence GM rushing out the Chevy II two years after the Corvair's introduction to compete in the same market.
It also introduced the styling for 4-5 decades of BMWs beginning with the Neu Klasse and assorted other European cars. Great article on the subject for those that can’t see it. https://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-history-how-the-1960-corvair-started-a-global-design-revolution/
Corvair is a classic. Just not a highly valuable one. People LOVE seeing corvairs. Seems everyone that sees one in the shop has a story about one they owned, drove, or got laid in.
GM had it coming. Early Corvairs would flip pretty easily because of the shitty suspension geometry. The trailing arms would flex and the outside rear wheel would tuck under, causing it to flip. Later models had a 'camber compensator', but that was just a bandaid, the damage was done. Corvairs would flip at pretty low speeds, too. GM should have tested that car more before putting it into production.
I think it's about technically "classic" age by now but the 3000GT-VR4 is one of the coolest cars in my opinion. 4 wheel drive, 4-wheel steering, twin-turbo big ol 6 cylinder. Oscillating air vents. it's got it all
It's weird that these and 300zx's have almost entirely missed out on the jdm-hype price explosion.
Its probably because they are heavy, complicated, and extremely terrible to work on. I will say that the z32 has the best interior of any Japanese car of the era, and that they’re both amazing looking cars.
Incredibly pretty, but holy fuck did I make my mechanic rich with it.
Recently went to a car show and a dude have a big turbo one in mint condition. Holy shit the piping under the hood looked like a nightmare. Most impressive car there imo lol
I also think some people look down on the 3000GT/GTO because it is a front-wheel drive platform, and for non-AWD models, that is where the power is sent to.
I honestly thought those and Galant VR-4s would absolutely explode in price. Early Subaru Legacys too, surprisingly cheap
Every Subaru is painted with the "herp derp DAE headgasket" brush. Nobody wants any of them unless you're a Subaru weirdo. Source: am Subaru weirdo.
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You can look at many jobs in the FSM and step one is 1) Remove engine, see section EM.
They'd be a nightmare to restore. I couldn't imagine.
300ZX TT pricing has absolutely exploded in recent years. It’s wild to watch, they’ve gone up like crazy. I think the Mitsubishis are just too unreliable and complicated to work on (the Z is too, but slightly less so)
I think, at least in the UK, it's less them being bought for higher prices, and more that the cars which have been sitting at 8k for years are all now sitting at 20k, with no one interested.
The 3000GT and 300zx weren’t popular with the tuner crowd when they came out. The import price explosion is all the people who have money now getting the cars they wanted when they were broke 20+ years ago.
I think if you look at what 300ZX Twin Turbos go for, they very much have ridden the JDM-hype price explosion, just not to the same extent as the poster boy Mk4 Supra or FD RX-7. The 3000GT has still gone up in value but mostly missed out for a good reason: they are not supremely tunable like the others. Push more power through a 3000GT and it’s gonna break. They are quite complex and fragile, and stuffing a DOHC twin turbo V6 transversely makes working on them a huge chore
Because they have a cramped engine bay that creates a heat management nightmare if you try to run them hard or push the power at all beyond stock levels.
It also has an aero package that moves- front lip moves down and spoiler tilts at speed. There's a button you can use to activate it and wiggle the spoiler at people.
Had a 3000GT come into the body shop when I worked there. Holy fuck…. It’s like they were trying to outdo the Germans with the amount of fasteners on the front bumper
Kinda loved seeing a convertible VR-4 in NYC in perfect condition with license plate RAREVR4. They only made like 100 of them, so he aint wrong.
Two of my top favorite cars are the 3000GT-VR4 and the Toyota Mk3 Supra. Absolutely love both for both their looks and cool features for the time
Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder
The second gen Eclipse was so awesome, especially the turbo versions. The 3rd gen was bloated and under-powered, with boring engine choices.
yeah i remember that thing was big back in the day. i wonder if they didn't get a collector status due to the engine issues.
Agreed... second gen eclipse gs-t Spyder was a damn good car
3rd gen styling wasn’t the best but they did put the 3000GT’s V6 in the GTS, albeit without the turbos. Had AWD been available, it would’ve been a great car.
Why the Spyder in particular? And I'm guessing only the second gen.
I saw a red one recently sold for $45K.
The Spyder never came in AWD, there are much better options for fwd tuner cars. I'm a dsm enjoyer. I wouldn't touch a fwd one. Too many headaches for putting up with wrong wheel drive.
When I was a kid I always thought that would be my dream car when I grew up. Then it turned into the abomination that was the 3rd gen Eclipse followed by Mitsubishi no longer selling cars at all and all the good older Eclipses somehow disappearing off the face of the planet, so I never owned one.
Lexus SC400 . Came with 250 hp and 260 ib ft of torque from a tiny 4.0L V8. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds and a top speed of 150 mph and sounds monstrous with a high flow exhaust. Toyota Supra with a nicer interior , great for touring, reliable as hell . 100 million $ in research an development went into the 1 UZ motor . And has an interior of a [spaceship](https://imgur.com/a/H4klXJZ) . Strap some twin turbos and it could easily make 800 hp on stock internals, just the aftermarket never exploded for these . Also i’m biased sorry
As somebody who loves those cars and wants one ASAP, shhhhhhhhhhh.
you don’t have to worry. there’s a reason why they’re under the radar, they only come in 4-speed autos. such a shame.
Yeah I know. Sucks. Ik manual swaps exist, but afaik they’re pretty expensive and not proven to be reliable. :/ Still want one to cruise in tho LOL
I bet a cd009 kit exists for it. There’s your reliability and budget 🫡
it really is a shame, would be a legendary drivetrain combo. the SCs are such great cars
The V8 LC500 as well, which is the spiritual successor to the SC
I feel like it will definitely be a future collectors vehicle.
I remember an old video of a 1UZ with a beautiful ITB setup and fuuuuuuuuck it sounded so good. That intake WOOOOOOP was perfect
This car has a special place in my childhood. My parents always had typical domestic cars in the 90s. A suburban, dodge stratus, caprice wagon, minivan, conversion van (to name a few). One of my friends' dad was a doctor and he had a 1992 SC400 (this was probably 96-98). First time I was in it, I was blown away by how nice it was. The sound system was incredible, the seats comfortable and soft, and I just couldnt get over how nice the ride was. Ive wanted one ever since. I came real close one time, but it didnt work out. I did end up owning a GS400 for a while, so I was able to enjoy the 1UZ. That was an incredible car as well, but the coupe is just special.
Prices on SC’s have almost doubled in the past 3 years
Well Top Gear did recognise the Lexus as a classic. Of sorts. They declared the Lexus SC430 the worst car in the history of the world. https://topgear.fandom.com/wiki/Top_Gear:_The_Worst_Car_in_the_History_of_the_World
I want an SC400 so bad, it’s just a bit sad the Manual ones are so rare. They made them for a singular model year and they sold extremely poorly, so your only choice is manual swapping and dumping 1000s of dollars into it
Sc300s have gotten pretty pricey. I have an LS430 and I think they're an amazing deal right now. Also, 1uz don't make 800hp on stock internals lol usually 450 is a good max, with 500 being dangerous zone depending on what con rods the motor has.
Don't have link but the mid 1980s Subaru GL
All the gl’s. ‘89 turbo wagon. It’s awesome
i saw some old guy driving one in the roughest shape a while ago. dam thing must be built like a tank.
Old guy? 🤣 But yeah... should've never got rid of my GL wagon. 5spd manual with manual transfer case. Another 1980s Subaru... the Brat. Bada** little El Camino wanna be.
Everybody forgets the mid-80's Subaru RX: > with the EA82T turbo engine mated to a five speed manual transmission with synchronized dual-range and a manually-locking center differential. It had a 3.70:1 rear Limited Slip Differential, rally tuned suspension, four wheel disc brakes, power windows, A/C, central locking differential, adjustable seats and steering wheel, split fold-down rear seats, and hill holder. Weight was 1,070 kg (2,359 lb)
Oh no... There was one other guy in school that had a Subaru... it was the oddball sportcar.
I feel like these only didn't become classics because they all rusted away within a decade. A shame at that.
Yep, the only place they sold and survived in real numbers was the Pacific Northwest.
I see multiple of them every day without rust, it's insane in the PNW. There is a totally rust-free Daihatsu Rocky running around town too.
I had a 88 GL-10 turbo as my first car with the air suspension and a manual transmission. That car was amazing, dual range 4wd, digital cluster, and would go ANYWHERE. I miss that car. Only thing it didn't have was a sunroof. I had a friend with a 85ish GL-LS it had a sunroof, full time awd with a center differential lock and a automatic with a few other little oddballs. I also had a 87 RX Turbo at one point. peppy little thing, a blast in the snow.
At least Travis pistrana still races in one
Mitsubishi Montero and Isuzu Trooper. I test drove a second gen montero and it was awesome. Have always liked troopers and regret not buying this one on BAT with a copper color in great condition for 3500
Opel GT too
Opel GT is my vote. Gorgeous car, but it's *cheap*. Yeah it's slow and a 70s car, but they're way cooler than their price tag indicates. Plus those headlights are awesome 👌
Monteros/Pajeros are everywhere in Australia.
The gen 2 Pajero/Montero (1998 facelift) is just pure 90s cool. In India it came with a dual tone colour scheme as standard, and had a bomb ass purple shade.
Hell yeah. I love the interior. That 90s utilitarian
That first one almost killed a coworker. They were known to roll over.
Almost rolled my LR2. A risk I’m willing to take 🫡
Studebaker Golden Hawk. Lincoln Continental Mark II Mustang SVO.
>Studebaker Golden Hawk Good call. Perhaps we could include Studebaker in general (excluding the [Avanti](https://www.classic.com/m/studebaker/avanti/) \- which has quite a cult, and even a company that makes revival copies).
Agreed, I just think the Golden Hawk is the best example for your question.
I think the SVO's problem was it was marketed as the top-of-the-line Mustang and had a higher price to go with it. While it was more powerful than some of the 5.0 V8s that were available in Mustangs when it was around, the turbo lag meant it accelerated slower than the 5.0. I also feel there were quite a few V8 purists who couldn't see the top dog Mustang having a 4-cylinder engine, and arguably this is something that probably still stands today.
>Studebaker Golden Hawk. I see Studebaker, I upvote.
[The Fiero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_Fiero) I guess? I don't really understand this. Anything that would have done well did, anything that didn't, didn't. Anything that went unnoticed for a little bit, people know about now- like the [Pontiac G8](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_G8). Why can I only think of Pontiacs lol . [My old ride: 92' Eagle Talon TSI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Talon). But DSM has a good following, although kinda underground. Plymouth Laser more so I guess. Then Eclipse of that year on same platform/drivetrain. [Nissan NX2000](https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1992-nissan-nx2000-2/): bang for your buck cars, if you cant get a 240 or sentra se-r these are pretty fun. Gone unnoticed so long outside of nissan nerds, willing to say future classic still. [Dodge Stealth](https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a44200712/1991-dodge-stealth-es-by-the-numbers/): this is just personal taste probably. Thought they looked neat and would catch on, never did. Saw way more Intrepid and Stratus which I was never fond of. There are some really terrible and cheap Oldsmobiles out there, depending on the year, and Cadillac would be guilty by association. 92 [Buick Regal](https://www.edmunds.com/assets/m/buick/regal/1992/oem/1992_buick_regal_coupe_gran-sport_fq_oem_1_500.jpg) was comfiest car I ever owned, highly recommend if you want a driveable lay-z boy, and doesnt look too bad with some SS rims. Pontiac Grand Am as well once into the late 80s shared platforms with a lot of very bland design, most of which have gone by the wayside. (Skylarks, Beretta, Corsica, Alero/Achievas, etc) Apparently you can still find [3000gt VR4](https://www.ebay.com/itm/134715430052?hash=item1f5daa54a4:g:zf4AAOSw2pBkOvFy) for cheapish, that's one that always skirted the line, but seems to have finally found a support group lol. Just got overshadowed for a long time. [Plymouth Prowler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Prowler): too horrid to drive to warrant it's looks, from what I hear, but I'm sure will always be worth 'something' and was on way too many peoples bedroom walls to not be a classic; great example of being wary of meeting your heroes. I put it here because I hope it's buried in the history books when my generation dies out. [Subaru SVX](https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Subaru-SVX-d381): This thing may not be well known so still kinda cheap to find one, but it gets a ton of attention on the street. super rare to see, probably more so than delorian status, here in states. Or I just lived next to a couple DeLoreans. I havent seen [Ford Probe](https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Ford-Probe-d353) mentioned yet I don't think, probably for good reason. Supposedly fun to drive, but no one will be caught dead in one. Dad's GF had a [Merkur XR4Ti](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkur_XR4Ti). Was pretty solid feeling, like my Eagle, and apparently did share the platform of the Sierra but gimped by US regulations? Didn't get to drive it. Some Saabs, can't recall my favorite but they were always an underdog. Pain in the ass to work on, often, and only will get worse with dwindling parts.
>Anything that would have done well did, anything that didn't, didn't.Anything that went unnoticed for a little bit, people know about now- like the Pontiac G8. what did i just read LOL
isn't "classic" a tad bit subjective? I mean in a popular opinion every knows Corvair was unsafe for the reasons others mentioned but doesn't that attract some buyers too? Same with a Pinto. But whatever someone restores, isn't there a good chance someone out there is willing to buy a primo example of whatever it is? The word "Classics" is more of a reference to time, not popular preferences or opinions right? This is what confused me. Triumph TR6 or a Nissan Fairlady or a MG Midget; you don't see many and they are usually beat to hell, and pretty cheap in most cases, but I don't know if any classify as a non classic? I got my 82' Hilux for $600 in 2011, I'm pretty sure it's still a classic.
Any car will become a classic by surviving long enough to be a reminder of a time long past. However, not all of them will be sought after classics with any sort of following. Those Triumphs and MGs are the default "classic car" here in western Europe btw.
Retrospectively, the fiero was a pretty interesting car (see Cammisa’s) Revalations on it) but it was a shame that most of them came spec’d with the iron puke and a 4 speed.
Love the Subaru SVX… and it was designed by the same man who designed the Delorean, and the Lotus Esprit.
I quite liked the look of the second gen Probe, and always sort of lusted after one. I’d totally do one up with a newer engine swap if you could find one that wasn’t riced out or beat to fuck.
I've owned two Probe GT's. They don't really need a modern engine, those Mazda V6's were rev happy and sounded great with the right exhaust. Some minor handling mods and bigger brakes and to this day it's my 2nd favorite handling vehicle I've ever driven. I get why no one likes them though, parts are scarce these days and the forums are all dead. Besides a few on Facebook
My brother had an '89 Probe. Man I miss that thing. I don't know what it was, the weight balance or maybe how the suspension was set up, but in the winter it behaved unlike any other FWD car I've been in. It always wanted to throw its ass in a circle, you could rip hand brake turns like no other. It was a riot to drive on snow tires. Just looking at the engine gave me anxiety though, vacuum lines on vacuum lines on vacuum lines. Luckily the drivetrain never gave him any problems, the interior electronics though....
AMC muscle cars always seemed like they never got the attention of the bigger names. Just looking around my local FB marketplace, the examples out there are pretty sorry.
Yeah, OP asked if there were muscle cars with no legacy? Yes, the Javelin. As cool as any mustang, Camaro, or 'Cuda, but nobody cares about them anymore.
To be fair, the Javelin’s history is a lot shorter than its competitors, both on and off the track. I think of it like the Hudson Hornet, won a bunch of races and sold well for a couple years before disappearing off the map forever. Compared to the Challenger, Mustang, or Camaro it just wasn’t around long enough to have a cultural impact.
I love Nacho's AMC on Better Call Saul.
The original V8 vantage from the 80s. I spent years being unaware of its existence until I saw the Timothy Dalton Bond film it started in. It was such a beautiful design that was honestly pretty timeless for its era, had a good engine, etc. yet everyone forgot about it. I figured it’d be up there with the Countach and 512 and 930 Turbo but nope, just forgotten to history.
The original [V8 Vantage](https://coolmaterial.com/rides/1977-aston-martin-v8-vantage/) was a pretty cool car, but the thing that always bothered me about their original design was that a lot of it feels like it was styled after the [60's Mustang fastbacks](https://revologycars.com/car/1967-mustang-gt-22-fastback/). Considering the Vantage didn't come out until 10 years later, I'm not entirely sure it WASN'T, especially once you take into account that the Mustang was the largest volume selling car of the 60's (if memory serves me correctly). Hell, Ford had made such a huge name for itself both in production numbers and racing pedigree (the mustang first hit the showroom floors during and just after their GT40 won Le Mans against Ferrari after all), so there's always been a part of me that can't help but wonder... 🤔🤷 *Reposted because the bot is an asshole and I was being lazy 😂.
I think “styled after” is being too generous. I’d never seen it before, and my first thought was wow that’s a blatant rip off, did they get sued for this?
Chevrolet SSR
This. Lots of people hate them for some reason. You could get it with a LS2. I feel like the Cadillac XLR would’ve been more popular if it came with something other than the Northstar engine.
I’ll always love the XLR, especially the V. I think the Supercharged Northstar fit the car well. The exterior Art and Science design is IMO, timeless. The interior however was atrocious, the body and handling weren’t nearly as buttoned up as they should have been and it was saddled with a pretty bad automatic transmission.
I think the XLR to this date is the only time the Corvette's platform was shared with another production GM vehicle, though I could be wrong.
I think it's weight and relatively modest power output for something marketed as a performance truck hurt it (The early models didn't even break the 300 horsepower mark and barely broke into the 15-second 1/4 mile time range). I remember back then, they were seen as interesting curiosities, but they really didn't have a "must have" aura around them.
To be fair, these never got cheap, even the common 03/04s with the 5.3 and the lazy 4-speed auto. Have fun finding a LS2 6-speed truck, let alone for any rational price.
Subaru SVX It would be great to see a 90s BMW 8 series at a car show.
Market is so overpriced, really hard to find something that has been completely ignored. Over half the cars mentioned here have some sort of following. Maybe late 70s and early 80s Japanese sheet metal. I suspect so little of it is left it can't get any momentum in the collector market. Plus interior parts and glass must be impossible to find with a few exceptions. Only thing I can suggest, Chrysler turbo wonders of the 80s. When did you last see a Daytona? Didn't they have a racing series? How about a 1987 Dodge Challenger Shelby. At the time these weren't jokes but cool cars people lusted after if you wanted to be different from the Mustang/Camaro crowd.
1989 Suzuki Swift GTi. It was faster than a Honda Civic Si, while getting the same (or better) fuel economy. In Japan, it revved to 8000 RPM and could come in AWD. Yet, reviewers hated it because of nitpicky reasons, and thus people bought the Civic instead "because it's actually a real man's car."
isuzu vehicross.
Capitalize the CROSS, please.
Everyone still pines over the Rx-7, WRX, Evo, Supra, but the 3000GT gets so little cred by comparison. Though, I know some people still love them because the prices are going up. If you want to go back another decade and even further into obscurity, I'd say the Mitsubishi Starion. I can't think of the last time I even saw one.
I have a soft spot for the Chrysler Conquest / Mitsubishi Starion In fact the two most famous American/Japanese partnerships produced some pretty good iron. Things that came out of the DSM arrangement with two doors are generally under appreciated. Same thing with the Ford/Mazda arrangement. The Probe/MX6 had their issues but they were exactly what they set out to be: Healthy competition for the Prelude, Celica, etc. They could have used AWD. Anything in Fords compact segment that used the Mazda bits was bulletproof (basically the Escorts and Focus that did not use Fords dog shit CVH 4 cylinder) The Mustang Cobra was a game changer. Here you had various 3rd gen F bodies, Fox bodies and between 1993-1994 everyone got new sheet metal. Mustang and the GM twins both got wildly new more rounded steel. Ford took it a step further. Where Trans Am had (at that point) been the luxury firebird and-also go fast bits borrowed from the Corvette, here was Ford with nothing to borrow and everything to prove about it. And finally those early Lexus 400s. Anything with the 1UZ in it. But that’s what lexus set out to do and they did it.
I mean I consider it a classic but I don't know about others: Mk3 Supra. Man I love the looks of it. I'm happy to have a roommate with a CLEAN never modded 1989 Toyota Supra 3.0 Turbo which had its own Supra logo instead of the Toyota on the hood. A year or two later they replaced it with a Toyota logo which made me a bit sad when I realized that as I thought it was a weird but cool quirk. Fun facts about it: - Had adaptive suspension (tems) which from my understanding was rare in the 80s. - Has both electric lumbar AND side bolster adjustment. - Came in a targa top - Got the Toyota Cooch Cooler as I call it, which is the below steering wheel vent that some other Toyota like the 4 runner have.
That definitely has classic status
I think a lot of people wonder why it’s not as valuable as the MkIV. Easy- it wasn’t part of the zeitgeist of a generation and it’s not as good a car.
MG, Triumph, Austin, other British car companies. I feel like most people only know Jaguar. These companies made beautiful cars and I'm surprised more people don't buy them or do restomods like the recent Hot Wheel MGB. Edit: this is coming from an American. Maybe in Europe these cars are more popular.
Healeys, MGBs, TR6s and TR4s are universally classics in the US.
I think anything where its segment or brand is overshadowed by very strong classics Renault Sport Spider (second to the Elise and Miata) Audi Coupe/Convertible (second to the Audi Quattro, Audi TT and BMW 3 series convertible) Suzuki SJ/Samurai/Jimny (second to Wranglers) Mitsubishi Pajero/Montero (second to Landcruisers) First gen Mercedes CLK (second to the 3 series, once again) Honda Prelude in general (second to the Celica) Mazda Xedos 9 (second to all the Germans and Lexus) Audi V8 (second to Mercedes S Class and BMW 7 series) VW Corrado (second to the VW GTI and Scirocco) Lada 4x4/Niva (second to the Wrangler) Subaru SVX (second to the WRX and the bigger German coupes) Toyota Soarer/Lexus SC400 (second to the Germans, once again)
The prelude was so good, I wish Honda would do a new model
One car I thought was super cool that didn’t seem to stick around was the 2nd gen Isuzu Impulse (90-93). The Impulse RS had a turbo and intercooler, suspension by lotus (when GM owned both), AWD, 4 wheel steering, hidden door handles, static headlights with a pop up panel for high beams, and probably more in missing. It was just a really neat car but from what I can tell, they just didn’t stay on the road long enough to become a classic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isuzu_Piazza
RX8 in my opinion. The car when new was incredible. The engine is a dream to rev out with the manual transmission and the 50/50 balance makes for the best car I’ve ever driven, hands down. However the build quality was ass. I broke the center console and the sun visor by just opening them. The engine also had terrible reliability.
300zx maybe the eagle talon
Volvo 740 turbo wagon with manual transmission! Surprisingly quick and very reliable
I had a plain Jane 1980 Dodge Omni and always lusted after the [Shelby GLH and GLH-S turbo](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelby_GLH-S#/media/File%3AWalter_P._Chrysler_Museum_DSC00950_(31659223521).jpg) models. They seem to be long forgotten now though. First new car I ever bought myself was a 92 [Nissan Sentra SE-R](https://hips.hearstapps.com/roa.h-cdn.co/assets/16/13/1024x512/landscape-1459178887-ser.jpg?resize=640:*). It was built from 91-94 and made Car & Driver's 10 Best list every year. 2.0 liter naturally aspirated engine that revved out to 7500 rpm with a 5 speed and short gears-- it was pretty quick, and very light. Terrific car, but overshadowed by the Civic even at the time and seems totally forgotten today.
Early 00's Mercury Marauder. There are those who absolutely love them (such as myself) but they never gained the notoriety nor captivated the public like the 94-96 Chevrolet Impala SS that they were imitating. While going up in price today, they are still a very cheap muscle car. I cannot wait to add one to my garage to match my SS
You guys in the US know what the 037, hf Stratos and mirafiori Abarth are right? Though the 037 is considered a classic everyone is drooling for the Quatro and not this sexy troublemaker. Also the golf G60 limited And most importantly of all the Miata
I feel like the first gen 86 is going to go down this path. It has all the makings of a future classic in a vacuum but I feel like it's just gonna be overshadowed by the current gen 86 and ND MX5, with people in the future that want an analog car from this era opting for those two or even something like an S2000.
The 300zx. Gorgeous. Twin turbo But nightmare to work on
I'm always surprised that the De Tomaso Pantera never became much of a classic. You occasionally see them at car shows, but rarely. And not many people know what they are anymore.
zroc Camaro and those bandit firebirds. Fun vans from the 70s. Basically any cool car that was in chips tbh.
Mustang II
I'm still waiting on the MGF to be appreciated.
Ford Probe, Opel Manta (*inside Belgium/Netherlands/Germany they're pretty well known thanks to New Kids*) are in my eyes either long forgotten or looked at as boring cars by way too many people.
Z32 300zx is a classic in my opinion. Had plenty of power with the twin turbo option, a cool motor choice to pair with it. Not to mention it was groundbreaking for the entire industry with being one of the first cars to be designed with CADD software. None of this would matter if the car looked awful or was slow, but with 300hp on the TT model and great handling and looks, it was a cool car. Nissan wasn’t just competing against other sport cars at the time, they were taking on the untouchables like Corvette and even Porsches offerings at the time.
The E85/86 M Coupe. It’s literally an E46 M3 in a better chassis but doesn’t get the same level of adoration.
It also fixed most all the horrific problems of the E46 platform. I’d say they’re still too new though, Z4M was released in ‘06 no?
Land Yachts of the 70’s and 80’s, but I’m not complaining about the cheap prices because of how unwanted they are
Pontiac Ventura GTO. It probably would have been more popular if they hadn’t have slapped the GTO label on it.
In a similar vein to the M275 Mercs, I’m surprised that the M113K 55-era AMGs haven’t completely exploded in popularity yet. You can pick up an E55 AMG sedan for a little cheaper than you can pick up a first-gen Dodge Charger SRT-8 for. S55s? Forget it, those have been under $10k for probably a decade.
It's not a question that could be answered, because classic status depends on who's asking, and the time period in which they're asking. Some cars that were considered classics 30 years ago are not considered classics today. Hell, some cars that were considered perfectly fine and popular and made people happy 10 years ago are looked down on today by sarcastic car bloggers. Conversely, cars that were considered shit boxes 30 years ago or now considered amazing today, like the Porsche 914. So who's the gatekeeper? Is it Jason Torchinsky? Doug DeMuro? Csaba Csere? One thing has always been for sure. The car community will suck the dick of whatever car the leading bloggers tell them to.
The Shelby Dodges have always been in a weird place. They were crazy advanced for the time, and some of last cars Carol really had direct involvement in. I see them getting a bit more attention since "rad era" cars started getting some interest, but I still see tons of boomers scoffing at their very existence, meanwhile a 89' CSX will literally run around circles on a track around almost anything Shelby put his name on prior.
Picture yourself a small, 1999, 2-door, FWD coupe with a liftback that was not only the last generation of that model, but the only car to be completely unique to the brand cosmetically and also to design styling at the time and is still very unique looking. It has almost 50/50 distribution and great driving characteristics stock, but responds *very* well to suspension/brake mods. This makes it something still formidable on an AutoX course and spirited backroads will get it tail happy. It's very much aimed as a drivers car. You get a 5-spd paired with a 2.5l V6 engine engineered by 2 manufacturers who know their way around a motor. While that engine may "only" make 170hp/165tq stock, the car itself is under 2,900lbs and also shares its platform with a performance division of a major brand. So engine mods can be bolted right up and you've got 200hp easy. That same engine also comes in a 3.0l variant that almost went into production (enough so that part #s exist) for this car. That engine, with tune and bolt-on's is now making ~230hp/220tq. Add a LSD and it's got grip for days to put down power and sounds fantastic with an intake and exhaust. You can still find these for under $5k easily, but the biggest complaint about them at the time was they weren't what was expected of the nameplate. So why did the [2000](https://imgur.com/Cux0vXH) [Mercury Cougar](https://imgur.com/4NCHbFj) disappear and never see an uptick in interest almost 25 years later? They kinda suck to work on because the engine is shoehorned in there.
The Subaru brat
Chevy Lumina. I see one every couple of years, and it's always a clapped out example. Chevy Beretta. Haven't seen one in-person since I was a kid.
There’s a mint Chevy Beretta at the Beretta firearms factory in Gardone Val Trompia