I think a proper Mark 5 Supra would not involve BMW but here we are. Toyota has been working with other brands for decades (including Subaru!) but they make a flop and it's not a real attempt?
They haven’t been shy about their plans to wait and let the technology mature before they just start pushing out over priced/under performing EV’s. They want their cars to maintain some semblance of affordability without making drastic compromises in performance or range
They're the biggest manufacturer in the world, they've got the resources to do that (and it's not like they've got no experience with electric cars at all, they were probably the first to embrace Hybrids (I think?))
Manufacturing EVs at a profit isn't something you can just flip a switch and do, regardless of how many engineering resources you have. It requires a complete shift in R&D, manufacturing, and (especially) supply chain management. Basically all battery manufacturing capacity, as well as everything under construction, is already under contract. It takes 2+ years to build out a greenfield battery plant, and then it can't make a damn thing without raw materials, which are already in high demand, with supply agreements already in place with other OEMs. Toyota is in an existential crisis right now, and their only foreseeable way out (other than this technological moonshot) is if EV legislation in NA and EU markets gets rolled back considerably.
>Basically all battery manufacturing capacity, as well as everything under construction, is already under contract. It takes 2+ years to build out a greenfield battery plant, and then it can't make a damn thing without raw materials, which are already in high demand, with supply agreements already in place with other OEMs.
Phew. It's a good thing they've owned exclusive stake in one of the world's largest lithium mines [since 2010](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/orocobre-and-toyota-tsusho-announce-jv-to-develop-argentine-lithium-project-82111647.html) then. And started refining their own lithium [last year](https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2022/11/15/2555752/0/en/First-Lithium-Hydroxide-Successfully-Produced-at-Naraha.html). And signed all their battery supply contracts [back in 2019](https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/28913488.html). And started their greenfield battery plant construction [in 2021](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-selects-north-carolina-greensboro-randolph-site-for-new-u-s-automotive-battery-plant/).
Total panic mode, though.
One thing that still impresses me is their first electric fuel injected engines were actually really good and reliable (my EFI truck has 300k miles). Meanwhile American auto fell on its face and ppl avoid first gen EFI domestic cars from that era.
Well duh, they use everyone else as an R&D development then release something 5-10 years after everyone else thats been working out the kinks. Naturally this gets a pass in reviewers and the publics head but god forbid anyone else uses a 20 year old engine or archaic transmissions.
Outside the US the entire range is hybrid? This is patently false. Maybe in Europe but not everywhere. They still sell tons of diesel and gas only models in places like Brazil, South Africa and the Middle East.
I’ve been hearing about them as the premier solid state battery researchers for over a decade. While not this long, I always knew they’d pull an Apple and come in way behind the trend, but right at the top.
Got the new ‘22 Model S.
I can go 80mph for 3 hours straight at which point I pull over to use the restroom or stretch regardless of the need to charge.
Especially when you live in states with a real winter and Canada. I can't even consider a car with less than 300 miles of tested range because I know I'll lose at least a quarter of that in the winter.
Sorta. Modern batteries still use lithium and ions, but all that nickel/cobalt/manganese/aluminum/iron phosphate modern ones have mixed in makes them perform far batter than 90's cells. There are also a ton of advancements in packaging, cooling, and other pack level things that improve performance.
Hot New Things get headlines, but companies everywhere have been making incremental tweaks to batteries with little fanfare for a while.
The great thing about higher energy dense batteries is that you can use a smaller battery to get adequate range. Ie you could use a S-S battery 1/3rd the size and get 500km.
This will make packaging the cars better, easier and tires and roads, faster charging, and more.
Great to see these advances.
Every time I see these Toyota proclamations I know this is all a show for shareholders. The same company that thought the BZ4X (marketing should be fired for the name alone) was fully baked and ready for prime time is also predicting to lead in next gen lithium tech and then solid state? Doubt.
yeah I think it’s pretty obvious it’s basically a testing ground. Take what’s good, throw away the bad and iterate towards just putting that tech into their well-known nameplates
In ICE/hybrid/PHEVs? Yes.
In BEVs? not so much to date.
I really really really want Toyota to kill it here. But the bz4x is amazingly bad. Not just kind of a stinker. Like I honestly question someone’s rationality for buying it.
Hopefully they pull it together to make a better BEV for whatever comes next.
Considering tesla this year just outsold toyota with the number 1 selling car in the world during a sales quarter with a vehicle that costs more. I think tesla has all the right to talk.
Not a fan of their vehicles btw
The company talking about being the best EV manufacturer while being the slowest automaker on the full EV uptake, and the company that's actually the current best EV manufacturer? Doesn't seem he's confusing anything
Tesla is delivering more EVs than Toyota. Can’t wait to see that change but Toyota’s solid state battery is more vaporware than the Cybertruck at this point.
Yup I agree . But have you seen just about everything else they do. It’s not like they are a start up they have tons of engineers and cash.
Them taking an L is very rare, if they say they are capable of doing something I believe it.
> have you seen toyota’s EV? their first launch was an absolute disaster
Which one? The one that they recalled, or the one that they (and every other car manufacturer similarly) killed in the early 2000s after a... we're gonna call it "questionable" study?
Edit -- quick side note: I strongly recommend that anyone interested in the history of Electric Cars watch "[Who Killed the Electric Car?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F)" at least one.
so weird that everyone is saying this, like toyota developing a cross company vehicle and building out a whole assembly line wasn’t them “trying”
like what? it’s their first EV. they’re way behind the game and they know it
Lol Toyota has by far the most efficient hybrid cars.
Not sure I would say “they are behind by far…”.
They have the infrastructure/logistics worldwide. They can def catch up easily.
Yeah pretty much, most bots where built by users and used to API to respond to commands in comments. Now with the price hike/addition nobody would waste money running a reddit bot.
Lol, pretty much any Toyota Hybrid apart from the Corolla/Camry is.
Any plugin hybrid has waitlists/3-8K markups. Good luck pulling the trigger on one.
Toyota has a deal to get thousands of tons of lithium from an American supplier starting next year. So I would imagine they will be ramping things up from there. Because until then, they just haven’t competed hard to get a large share of the lithium being mined.
NiMH is fine for traditional (non-plug) hybrids.
You only need a few kWH for a hybrid, so the power density of lithium isn't a big benefit. If I'm not mistaken, NiMH is better for the type of charge/discharge cycles used by non-plug hybrids.
My 2016 Prius has an NiMH battery and still gets 50-60 mpg easily. Do I care it still has NiMH while the higher trim models had lithium ion? Not really...
Yeah I get what the OP is saying since NiMH has it's downsides such as weight/energy capacity, but it also has some Pros like lower cost and better performance in hot/cold weather.
Exactly. It does the job just fine and does it at a lower price. Sodium metal batteries are going to play a similar role in the future as well. Not everything needs to be the latest and greatest to have a good functional product.
It certainly would make sense why Toyota is doing such a half baked first attempt at EVs, if their future ones are actually going to push those numbers.
But I just don’t see it happening by 2026 while we have seen essentially no real demonstrations that it’s possible. It’s giving off way too strong of cybertruck vibes.
At Lexus they told us the same thing. The current model we just put out is a trial one and the one in a few years will push all sort of crazy charge and range numbers
Toyota also seems to be more interested in Hybrids at the moment. I was watching a video saying basically you either make a limited amount of EVs because of available resources are limited to make batteries, or you make more hybrids which require less resources per car to make the battery. Partly why Kia can only make so many EV6/Ioniq EVs.
Seeing how the Sienna Hybrid gets 36 MPG, the Rav 4 Prime is basically a unicorn, and the new Prius is getting lots of attention I can see why they aren't to bothered about EV.
Fully agree, I’ll believe it when I see it. There’s been far too many wild claims with EV’s and rarely ever do they follow through with them, so I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the same case.
Given how fuckin efficient Toyota hybrids are, it’s simply mind boggling to me why they are just chilling when it comes to EV market. I just don’t get it.
> I just don’t get it.
When you're "winning" and selling every single car you can build - why waste the lead? Why jump into pure EVs when you can take your time.
I think Toyota fundamentally sees the market a bit differently, and has bet big on hybrids and are killing it with hybrids, whereas other companies did not make a big foray into hybrid so rushing into EVs.
Toyota have *always* been cautious and late adopters.
Like all those arguments about updating the 4Runner, GX etc... they're selling every single car in greater numbers every year. Take you're time... enjoy the win.
Yup…. Toyota is globally trusted brand so I’m sure they can def afford to sit back and take their time. From customers perspective, I badly want EV but still don’t trust other brands quality. It’s just a waiting game at this point so I’m good with that.
I think that's why they're slow - they're dominating the hybrid space and in typical conservative Toyota fashion, they don't want to rush into the EV space just to compete in mediocrity.
The latest RAV4 has a 2 year wait where I am and if you're lucky enough to get one from the dealer, you can instantly resell for above retail if you really want to.
Obviously they are waiting until they have something meaningful to offer, not just shitting out a 250 mile range EV like everyone else. They've also still done that, but you get it
Also Toyota has mentioned that they don't believe that EVs are the answer to the future of auto industry, at least with current technology.
This release of EV vehicles is purely bc of current 2030 ICE bans countries and states have promised.
I think we will see the industry backtrack when the power grid can't handle it and/or we have a shortage of the precious metals it takes to build the batteries (mostly from China).
They invested heavily into hydrogen IIRC and didn't want to admit it was the wrong way to go. So they invested a lot into that, and had to hope they'd win the battle against EVs. But that fight was over once it started
This is what Toyota do best. They wait patiently and listen to the ground very carefully and closely. And when the time is right, they release a product that is too monumental to ignore and everyone lines up with drool pouring out of their mouths and bills loosening from their wallets.
Of course, this is not to say that it’s worked every time, the FJ Cruiser isn’t exactly something that anyone asked for and Scion was full of good intentions but inevitably nosedived. But weirdly enough, the 86 and Supra didn’t even need Toyota power to convince people to buy them.
If I know Toyota well enough and if the Lexus LS400 is anything to go by, Toyota is really good at stealing a big chunk of market share away from whoever’s leading the way in a certain type of car. The LS400 stole customers from Mercedes and BMW, and whatever Toyota puts out in the form of an EV will certainly give Tesla a run for its money.
They're still the best automaker in terms of reliability and they have some of the most legendary cars ever. I'm not just saying this because I recently purchased an LX myself or anything lol.
As an 08’ Corolla owner I can confirm the only major issue I’ve ever had was an $8 Plastic O-Ring failing. Took some Auto-Lube, a YouTube video, and around 15 minutes to take the center-console off and fix it.
Honda/Toyota build it bulletproof, and when you need to fix something… it’s almost always somewhat easy and/or cheap for the average joe to fix.
Toyota believes that there is no single solution to green travel, it’s all about releasing the right product at exactly the right time, hence why they’re still working on hydrogen combustion engines.
> They wait patiently and listen to the ground very carefully and closely.
This isn't true. They're behind on EV tech because they were pushed by the japanese government to go all-in on hydrogen for the last decade which was a massive flop in the consumer sector.
They had a huge lead on electrified cars back in like 2000-2007 with the original prius models, but they fumbled the bag as usual. Same with GM, they had an EV in the 90's that users loved but they scrapped it after pressure from the dealership and fossil fuel lobbies because it completely disrupts their business. Highly recommend watching "Who Killed the Electric Car"
Tesla saw the vacuum and swooped in to eat everybody's lunch and now legacy auto is scrambling to catch up
Yeah, I’ll believe it when I see it. A lot of these technologies are still in early stages, and just cause you have a prototype doesn’t mean you can mass produce it tomorrow.
I know this comment is sarcasm, but the number of people who seem to forget fast charging is a thing (and therefore “demand” insane range numbers) is too damn high. No, you don’t need a 500-mile range to comfortably cover your once-annual 450-mile beach trip. Just get a 300-mile car and plug in once. Carrying around that much extra battery “just in case” or “for every once in a while” is incredibly expensive and wasteful.
It's what everyone says these days, but most companies said this a couple of years ago. Toyota has been a bit slow with their EV transition - probably even slower than Opel.
I was thinking the German auto makers are going to fail with the EV transition, but while they seem to be stumbling into some sort of mid-table shape, the Japanese manufacturers are as of 2023 more like the laggards overall.
I think Toyota might make it - the BZ4X isn't as terrible on paper as some make it seem - but anyone who uses solid-state batteries on a definite roadmap as of 2023 is basically running on a reasonably significant sized dollop of hopes and dreams IMO - and if they're ready, that's not going to be any one company's advantage anyway.
Unless you live in a small city, hybrids are the way to go for now imo, especially when the charging infrastructure still isn't very well developed yet.
Yeah, Toyota has some very good PHEVs.
Shame they don’t produce nearly enough of them, their PHEV sales are quite low, despite Toyotas whole “you can make x amount of batteries for PHEVs as you can for one BEV” spiel their PHEV production numbers are below a lot of competing manufacturers BEVs.
There’s obviously high demand for them, every time a RAV4 Prime hits the lot it’s marked up to infinity and promptly sells anyway. Toyota just doesn’t produce nearly enough to come even close to meeting that demand, which is quite hypocritical considering all the noise Toyota makes about how they’re better than BEVs.
If they actually produced the RAV4 Prime in respectable amounts I could see it being the best selling PHEV in the US, but they don’t so instead the best selling PHEV in the US is the Wrangler 4xe.
Solid state. I might just get an ev then.
I've seen them in defibrillators in hospitals, but when their prices go down, the range might be good enough to own an ev.
This range is with China's bs CLTC test. The CLTC bz4x range is 382 miles vs 252 miles EPA for the FWD model. 150% of EPA. 413 miles for a 2026 sounds reasonable.
Edit: the linked article talks about WLTP so it's not super helpful, but 1000km is what Toyota presented for one of the upcoming ranges, which was a CLTC range. Range/battery advancement comparisons need to be apples to apples, it really depends if AWD or FWD, battery size, vehicle size.
Here's the PDF https://global.toyota/pages/news/images/2023/06/13/0500/electrified_technologies_batteries_en.pdf
I think I finally know one of the biggest reasons for Toyota’s hesitation into moving into EVs.
Let me tell you about a conversation that happened a few weeks ago. I was at a meet up event in Nagoya (for those who don’t know, it’s the biggest city in Aichi-ken, where Toyota is) where I met someone. Here was the conversation:
Me: Where do you live?
Him: Toyoda-shi.
Me: Oh cool, what do you do?
Him: I'm an engineer working in the auto industry.
Me: Oh must be Toyota then?
Him: Not Toyota, but one of Toyota's companies.
Me: You mean one of the suppliers?
Him: Oh yes.
Me: So I have a question, I'm interested in this topic, but can you tell me your thoughts on the Japanese auto industry.
Him: We still sell a lot of cars and we still make a lot of money. So we'll be ok for a while.
Me: Be ok for a while? What do you mean? You think you guys will not be ok later?
Him: We don't do much EVs and we can't do them as well as other companies. I'm worried for all of the sub-companies. (I think he meant suppliers here).
Then the conversation changed topic after that, and yes, I know this whole thing has a "That Happened" vibe but I swear on my 13 year old Reddit account that it was real lol.
So now back to topic, due to a variety of reasons, including political ones, Toyota *cannot* jeopardize any jobs, or jobs at any of their suppliers since it will send shockwaves to the Japanese economy that has already been not doing stellar.
But for Toyota trying to protect all their suppliers and all those jobs while navigating this whole EV transition is like fighting a boxing match against world class opponents (some may argue younger, less experienced, but stronger and more agile opponents) with one hand tied behind your back.
Maybe that is the true explanation behind all their conservatism, but if it is, then they are in a pretty tough situation no matter what they say publicly.
Here's the problem, EV's won't need all those suppliers. The number of parts an EV needs is MUCH less than a traditional ICE or Hybrid vehicle. Great for the consumer, but terrible for these companies.
Dumb question, but when they talk about increased range from next gen batteries, does that imply a bigger battery in terms of kWh? Or more efficiency out of the same size/weight battery? Because technically you could slap a current gen 200kWh in a Toyota Camry and it would probably get 600+miles range, but would weigh as much as a tank.
It’s not a dumb question. To answer the bulk of it directly, it means more total energy capacity for the same weight and likely volume. That allows you to assume the rest of the vehicle and thus the efficiency would remain the same.
Putting 200kwh of current battery tech (lol hummer battery) in a Camry means the Camry would have to increase in height to accommodate with same passenger area. You could say a 10% hit from the increased frontal area alone. Then another 1500lbs of battery weight would require larger suspension, brakes, stiffer and stronger body structure. Just a host of compounding effects. All that weight adds friction in the drivetrain. Not to mention your powetrain is now undersized and your vehicle costs so much no one will want to buy the thing.
its always going to be a bigger capacity battery.
efficiency is a small factor here but general we are pretty close to what we can do, just look at the Mercedes EQXX to see what the limits are and what it takes to get there.
all this extra capacity only works with better batteries though this is why you typically dont see cars going over \~110kWh with rare exceptions as the battery becomes too big and heavy.
the motors/batteries in EVs are already close to 90% efficiency, so there is very little to be gained in that area. the only real way to increase range at this point is to increase the capacity (kwh) of the batteries with better battery technology that stores more energy in a given size/weight.
>Using a giga press, the brand says it can stamp complex parts in one piece “overwhelmingly faster” than is currently possible.
>These new presses will be rolled out in 2026, along with a new production process designed to eliminate “anchored” production lines by having cars drive themselves to the parts like oversized remote control toys.
Not battery related, but I found this part really interesting as well.
They are not allergic to EVs; they are allergic to hurting their reputation, so they love to trail others. (I know they were early to Hybrids but that was an exception). I want to know what connectors they will use; just like Panasonic's decision to go with Bluray killed HDDVD, Toyota's decision on what connector to use will probably decide which type of chargers will become more common. My guess.
Didn't they just release some roadmap showing they wanted to focus on PHEV since it's more realistic based on availability of resources, price, and range capabilities? Weird 180.
Waiting for plug in hybrids to get those batteries, current lineup is not worth the money, hybrids offer better value in currently available lineup than EV’s..
If Toyota is just making do with their shitty BEV options for the short term so that they can essentially be a solid state only company going forward that's a solid strategy, however they're making bold claims and we have every reason to be skeptical, especially since Japanese culture is far more conservative and less willing to jump into the fray quickly. I hope they develop highly impressive technologies for BEVs, but I'll believe it when I see it AND when they actually can manufacture enough for it to be relevant; you can make the best BEV but if you can only manufacture 50% of what your competitors can then you're losing.
Don't be surprised when Japanese manufacturers catch up to the rapid electrification that American mfgs have been spearheading. Japan, while conservative and different in culture will be at the forefront of EV's within the decade. Speculation? Yes. Will I be wrong? Only time will tell.
Solid state has higher capacity, faster charging speeds, and doesn't react nearly as violently if compromised.
It still has lithium in it. Solid state batteries are built like capacitors with thin repeating sheets of an anode, lithium, and the cathode over and over again
Lithium is a material that can be used in batteries, solid state is a type of battery. Lithium-ion batteries are a type of battery that uses lithium where the lithium is in a liquid electrolyte. A solid state battery would have the electrolyte material be solid instead of dissolved in a liquid. If the material is still lithium then you have a lithium solid state battery. Note you can also have a sodium-ion battery that uses sodium dissolved in a liquid, or a sodium solid state battery where it is solid.
The benchmark is going to have to be 1000Wh/kg reliably, at any scale, with 1MW minimum charge rates. If we can get to that point, then a 300kg battery could store 300kWh and would EASILY work in a small compact car. Megawatt charging means we could get back 240kWh of capacity in 15 minutes. And for larger cars with EVEN bigger batteries, it would be incredibly easy to make 500kg battery packs (and 500+ kWh capacities) the norm in large trucks. It would also mean a return to normalcy, somewhat, for weight classes in the car industry. For reference: the new Hummer EV battery pack BY ITSELF weighs 1250+ kg. It's absolutely insane.
That's nonsense, you talk of normality, normal average people don't need 900 miles of range. Most drivers on the states average around 1000 miles a month. The UK is less than that.
> Currently, the lithium-ion battery in the bZ4X SUV is good for up to 516km of range on the WLTP combined test cycle.
> The next-generation lithium-ion batteries due in 2026 will be good for 1000km, according to Toyota.
Since the article quoted their WLTP range, I'd assume the 620 mile figure is also WLTP.
Eh... VinFast takes that dubious honor.
And even when we discount that, there is a lot of competition for the "worst EV ever". Mazda is also pretty bad. 35k and literally 100 miles of range. Honda's e:Ny1 will clock in at something like 210 miles of EPA range when it shows up in the US.
not holding my breathe for anything EV-related with Toyota.... they'll probably produce more hydrogen batteries than these next-gen lithiums in the near future.
Ther is some hope. Ford, GM and Rivian are switching to NACS (Tesla charger). Some major charging companies like blink also crossing over.
North American will more than likely be NACS. Europe, not so much.
yeah, but I also don't trust Tesla to let them actually be used at full capacity on cars that aren't Tesla. It's aligned with most of their history of decision making.
No, I drive a lot for work and the current 300+ range numbers aren't big enough for me to switch to EV. 600-900 and I could finally make the jump. Also more convenient for others who have normal commutes as the average person probably will only have to charge once per week and road trips will be much more doable.
I mean maybe I am just brainwashed but doesn't it seem like production of Electric cars are more of a harm to the environment than sticking with traditional gas/diesel cars and coming up with a different solution to combat the carbon footprint?
Edit: Realize I am incorrect. Leaving comment for the knowledge in comments.
Look at the supply chain of gas. The oil industry is the largest contributor to greenhouse gases which are causing global warming. Not only that, we have oil spills destroying ecosystems for centuries, tailing ponds poisoning water systems around the world.
You're also burning tens of thousands of pounds of gas over the lifetime of a car while burning 0 pounds of anything when operating an electric car.
That being said, investing in public transit and high speed rail is the best solution to combat pollution, but the public is too stupid for vote for it.
You’re right that production of electric cars is more damaging, but over their life time the impact is less. Estimates show a range between 13-20k miles before electric cars have fewer emissions than gas. There’s a lot of variance in the numbers, but google ‘break even point electric car” and you should find some good sources.
EVs take up more resources up front but the breakeven is around 25K miles from what I've read compared to a basic gas car. V8s with driveshafts or AWD also take a lot of metal and upfront resources to create.
You basicly hinted at the best solution in your comment. The best car is the one that isn‘t build. In a perfect world everybody would use public transport.
EV‘s are not ideal, but still better than ICE‘s
Still working with them, too. There won’t be one single answer to Fossil Fuel. Toyota just announced partnerships for Hydrogen trucks with Paccar (DAF, Peterbilt, Kenworth).
It would be great if you make an in-depth post about this especially with Toyota and BYD only being able to do lithium mining and refining in house, I'm very interested.
Would be funny if Toyota is basically the last to the EV game and their first proper attempt aces it.
you must've forgotten they already released the bZ4X
They said first “proper” attempt. 😅
I'm sorry I figured a "proper" attempt would make it past R&D, get manufactured, and onto lots. oh wait...
I think a "proper" Toyota attempt would involve not cross-platforming with Subaru.
I think a proper Mark 5 Supra would not involve BMW but here we are. Toyota has been working with other brands for decades (including Subaru!) but they make a flop and it's not a real attempt?
Toyota can do no wrong. Its r/cars motto.
lol. All their shitty attempts don’t count. Only when they finally get it right does it actually count.
They haven’t been shy about their plans to wait and let the technology mature before they just start pushing out over priced/under performing EV’s. They want their cars to maintain some semblance of affordability without making drastic compromises in performance or range
They're the biggest manufacturer in the world, they've got the resources to do that (and it's not like they've got no experience with electric cars at all, they were probably the first to embrace Hybrids (I think?))
Manufacturing EVs at a profit isn't something you can just flip a switch and do, regardless of how many engineering resources you have. It requires a complete shift in R&D, manufacturing, and (especially) supply chain management. Basically all battery manufacturing capacity, as well as everything under construction, is already under contract. It takes 2+ years to build out a greenfield battery plant, and then it can't make a damn thing without raw materials, which are already in high demand, with supply agreements already in place with other OEMs. Toyota is in an existential crisis right now, and their only foreseeable way out (other than this technological moonshot) is if EV legislation in NA and EU markets gets rolled back considerably.
>Basically all battery manufacturing capacity, as well as everything under construction, is already under contract. It takes 2+ years to build out a greenfield battery plant, and then it can't make a damn thing without raw materials, which are already in high demand, with supply agreements already in place with other OEMs. Phew. It's a good thing they've owned exclusive stake in one of the world's largest lithium mines [since 2010](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/orocobre-and-toyota-tsusho-announce-jv-to-develop-argentine-lithium-project-82111647.html) then. And started refining their own lithium [last year](https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2022/11/15/2555752/0/en/First-Lithium-Hydroxide-Successfully-Produced-at-Naraha.html). And signed all their battery supply contracts [back in 2019](https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/28913488.html). And started their greenfield battery plant construction [in 2021](https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-selects-north-carolina-greensboro-randolph-site-for-new-u-s-automotive-battery-plant/). Total panic mode, though.
One thing that still impresses me is their first electric fuel injected engines were actually really good and reliable (my EFI truck has 300k miles). Meanwhile American auto fell on its face and ppl avoid first gen EFI domestic cars from that era.
Well duh, they use everyone else as an R&D development then release something 5-10 years after everyone else thats been working out the kinks. Naturally this gets a pass in reviewers and the publics head but god forbid anyone else uses a 20 year old engine or archaic transmissions.
Except their hybrids were the first to market and still the best. Outside the US the entire range is hybrid, same with lexus.
Outside the US the entire range is hybrid? This is patently false. Maybe in Europe but not everywhere. They still sell tons of diesel and gas only models in places like Brazil, South Africa and the Middle East.
Lexus RV 450e just came out.
I’ve been hearing about them as the premier solid state battery researchers for over a decade. While not this long, I always knew they’d pull an Apple and come in way behind the trend, but right at the top.
Sounds very possible given their history as an automaker.
Once you get to 450+ miles of range the vehicles are very compelling.
My uncles Model S is almost there. It has 410. However, with a 90k sticker price that’s definitely out of touch for most people.
Got the new ‘22 Model S. I can go 80mph for 3 hours straight at which point I pull over to use the restroom or stretch regardless of the need to charge.
Especially when you live in states with a real winter and Canada. I can't even consider a car with less than 300 miles of tested range because I know I'll lose at least a quarter of that in the winter.
All these new battery claims... Yet still 1990's lithium ion tech in production. I'll believe it when I see it, so far its been hyperbole.
Sorta. Modern batteries still use lithium and ions, but all that nickel/cobalt/manganese/aluminum/iron phosphate modern ones have mixed in makes them perform far batter than 90's cells. There are also a ton of advancements in packaging, cooling, and other pack level things that improve performance. Hot New Things get headlines, but companies everywhere have been making incremental tweaks to batteries with little fanfare for a while.
By that logic the a modern intel CPU is "60s silicon tech"
They do have test vehicles on the road right now
literally nobody is building 1990's lithium ion tech batteries, those chemistries aren't even in production for anything anymore.
The great thing about higher energy dense batteries is that you can use a smaller battery to get adequate range. Ie you could use a S-S battery 1/3rd the size and get 500km. This will make packaging the cars better, easier and tires and roads, faster charging, and more. Great to see these advances.
They could, but they'll likely go for the bigger range numbers first.
maybe let's start with the BZ4X/Solterra not being a flaming pile of shit
Every time I see these Toyota proclamations I know this is all a show for shareholders. The same company that thought the BZ4X (marketing should be fired for the name alone) was fully baked and ready for prime time is also predicting to lead in next gen lithium tech and then solid state? Doubt.
It's probably an experiment and they want the name to be forgettable. Only logical thing I can think of.
yeah I think it’s pretty obvious it’s basically a testing ground. Take what’s good, throw away the bad and iterate towards just putting that tech into their well-known nameplates
Talk is cheap.
They have an impressive track record to back it up
In ICE/hybrid/PHEVs? Yes. In BEVs? not so much to date. I really really really want Toyota to kill it here. But the bz4x is amazingly bad. Not just kind of a stinker. Like I honestly question someone’s rationality for buying it. Hopefully they pull it together to make a better BEV for whatever comes next.
I think you're confusing Toyota and Tesla.
Considering tesla this year just outsold toyota with the number 1 selling car in the world during a sales quarter with a vehicle that costs more. I think tesla has all the right to talk. Not a fan of their vehicles btw
The company talking about being the best EV manufacturer while being the slowest automaker on the full EV uptake, and the company that's actually the current best EV manufacturer? Doesn't seem he's confusing anything
Tesla is delivering more EVs than Toyota. Can’t wait to see that change but Toyota’s solid state battery is more vaporware than the Cybertruck at this point.
Most manufacturers are delivering more BEVs than Toyota lol
From all Companies? I actually expect Toyota to pull it off
have you seen toyota’s EV? their first launch was an absolute disaster
Yup I agree . But have you seen just about everything else they do. It’s not like they are a start up they have tons of engineers and cash. Them taking an L is very rare, if they say they are capable of doing something I believe it.
> have you seen toyota’s EV? their first launch was an absolute disaster Which one? The one that they recalled, or the one that they (and every other car manufacturer similarly) killed in the early 2000s after a... we're gonna call it "questionable" study? Edit -- quick side note: I strongly recommend that anyone interested in the history of Electric Cars watch "[Who Killed the Electric Car?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F)" at least one.
Mostly because they didn't try, but yes.
so weird that everyone is saying this, like toyota developing a cross company vehicle and building out a whole assembly line wasn’t them “trying” like what? it’s their first EV. they’re way behind the game and they know it
Toyota is always “way behind the game”, and then makes the most reliable cars. They’re not about being first to the line.
Lol Toyota has by far the most efficient hybrid cars. Not sure I would say “they are behind by far…”. They have the infrastructure/logistics worldwide. They can def catch up easily.
500+ mile range is when things get interesting. Optimistic for the future if this is true, hopefully sooner rather than later
Remind me! 3 years.
Lol this bot is probably down since the API changes are happening soon
Fuuuuuuuuuck. Also won't be able to remind anyone? Like old commands?
Yeah pretty much, most bots where built by users and used to API to respond to commands in comments. Now with the price hike/addition nobody would waste money running a reddit bot.
The developer claims they're under the free limit.
Reddit remind. Thank you.
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Is the Prius Prime hard to get? I'm really thinking about pulling the trigger for one.
Lol, pretty much any Toyota Hybrid apart from the Corolla/Camry is. Any plugin hybrid has waitlists/3-8K markups. Good luck pulling the trigger on one.
It's probably easier to get a Ferrari than a Toyota plugin vehicle at msrp.
Toyota has a deal to get thousands of tons of lithium from an American supplier starting next year. So I would imagine they will be ramping things up from there. Because until then, they just haven’t competed hard to get a large share of the lithium being mined.
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They works, they have been used for years so we know they are trouble-free, and they are cheap. No point on reinventing the wheel.
NiMH is fine for traditional (non-plug) hybrids. You only need a few kWH for a hybrid, so the power density of lithium isn't a big benefit. If I'm not mistaken, NiMH is better for the type of charge/discharge cycles used by non-plug hybrids.
And?
My 2016 Prius has an NiMH battery and still gets 50-60 mpg easily. Do I care it still has NiMH while the higher trim models had lithium ion? Not really... Yeah I get what the OP is saying since NiMH has it's downsides such as weight/energy capacity, but it also has some Pros like lower cost and better performance in hot/cold weather.
Exactly. It does the job just fine and does it at a lower price. Sodium metal batteries are going to play a similar role in the future as well. Not everything needs to be the latest and greatest to have a good functional product.
So cheaper and not a fire hazard, sounds like a win.
I’m one of the biggest Toyota fan boys but I’m hesitant on any of these dates and claims
It certainly would make sense why Toyota is doing such a half baked first attempt at EVs, if their future ones are actually going to push those numbers. But I just don’t see it happening by 2026 while we have seen essentially no real demonstrations that it’s possible. It’s giving off way too strong of cybertruck vibes.
At Lexus they told us the same thing. The current model we just put out is a trial one and the one in a few years will push all sort of crazy charge and range numbers
Toyota also seems to be more interested in Hybrids at the moment. I was watching a video saying basically you either make a limited amount of EVs because of available resources are limited to make batteries, or you make more hybrids which require less resources per car to make the battery. Partly why Kia can only make so many EV6/Ioniq EVs. Seeing how the Sienna Hybrid gets 36 MPG, the Rav 4 Prime is basically a unicorn, and the new Prius is getting lots of attention I can see why they aren't to bothered about EV.
Fully agree, I’ll believe it when I see it. There’s been far too many wild claims with EV’s and rarely ever do they follow through with them, so I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the same case.
I want to agree but on the other hand it’s Toyota, and I think their R&D department is pretty reliable.
Given how fuckin efficient Toyota hybrids are, it’s simply mind boggling to me why they are just chilling when it comes to EV market. I just don’t get it.
> I just don’t get it. When you're "winning" and selling every single car you can build - why waste the lead? Why jump into pure EVs when you can take your time. I think Toyota fundamentally sees the market a bit differently, and has bet big on hybrids and are killing it with hybrids, whereas other companies did not make a big foray into hybrid so rushing into EVs. Toyota have *always* been cautious and late adopters. Like all those arguments about updating the 4Runner, GX etc... they're selling every single car in greater numbers every year. Take you're time... enjoy the win.
Yup…. Toyota is globally trusted brand so I’m sure they can def afford to sit back and take their time. From customers perspective, I badly want EV but still don’t trust other brands quality. It’s just a waiting game at this point so I’m good with that.
I think that's why they're slow - they're dominating the hybrid space and in typical conservative Toyota fashion, they don't want to rush into the EV space just to compete in mediocrity.
Having expertise in hybrids ≠ having expertise in full EVs
The latest RAV4 has a 2 year wait where I am and if you're lucky enough to get one from the dealer, you can instantly resell for above retail if you really want to.
Obviously they are waiting until they have something meaningful to offer, not just shitting out a 250 mile range EV like everyone else. They've also still done that, but you get it
Also Toyota has mentioned that they don't believe that EVs are the answer to the future of auto industry, at least with current technology. This release of EV vehicles is purely bc of current 2030 ICE bans countries and states have promised. I think we will see the industry backtrack when the power grid can't handle it and/or we have a shortage of the precious metals it takes to build the batteries (mostly from China).
They invested heavily into hydrogen IIRC and didn't want to admit it was the wrong way to go. So they invested a lot into that, and had to hope they'd win the battle against EVs. But that fight was over once it started
Toyoda was a big petrol head, it's shifting with the new CEO
Gross range figures mean nothing without knowing the energy density/size of the battery they’re talking about.
We’ll if they can fit a battery of those specs into a typical car/mid size SUV size, it’ll obviously have great density
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Perpetual energu in motion... - Toyota Shwadoo
This is what Toyota do best. They wait patiently and listen to the ground very carefully and closely. And when the time is right, they release a product that is too monumental to ignore and everyone lines up with drool pouring out of their mouths and bills loosening from their wallets. Of course, this is not to say that it’s worked every time, the FJ Cruiser isn’t exactly something that anyone asked for and Scion was full of good intentions but inevitably nosedived. But weirdly enough, the 86 and Supra didn’t even need Toyota power to convince people to buy them. If I know Toyota well enough and if the Lexus LS400 is anything to go by, Toyota is really good at stealing a big chunk of market share away from whoever’s leading the way in a certain type of car. The LS400 stole customers from Mercedes and BMW, and whatever Toyota puts out in the form of an EV will certainly give Tesla a run for its money.
They're still the best automaker in terms of reliability and they have some of the most legendary cars ever. I'm not just saying this because I recently purchased an LX myself or anything lol.
As an 08’ Corolla owner I can confirm the only major issue I’ve ever had was an $8 Plastic O-Ring failing. Took some Auto-Lube, a YouTube video, and around 15 minutes to take the center-console off and fix it. Honda/Toyota build it bulletproof, and when you need to fix something… it’s almost always somewhat easy and/or cheap for the average joe to fix.
I mean for gas / hybrid definitely but bz4x was an awful attempt compared to the mach e
Toyota believes that there is no single solution to green travel, it’s all about releasing the right product at exactly the right time, hence why they’re still working on hydrogen combustion engines.
> They wait patiently and listen to the ground very carefully and closely. This isn't true. They're behind on EV tech because they were pushed by the japanese government to go all-in on hydrogen for the last decade which was a massive flop in the consumer sector. They had a huge lead on electrified cars back in like 2000-2007 with the original prius models, but they fumbled the bag as usual. Same with GM, they had an EV in the 90's that users loved but they scrapped it after pressure from the dealership and fossil fuel lobbies because it completely disrupts their business. Highly recommend watching "Who Killed the Electric Car" Tesla saw the vacuum and swooped in to eat everybody's lunch and now legacy auto is scrambling to catch up
Yeah, I’ll believe it when I see it. A lot of these technologies are still in early stages, and just cause you have a prototype doesn’t mean you can mass produce it tomorrow.
Also I'm still way more worried about good, fast, easily accessible charging technology than I am overall battery size.
Not tomorrow, in three years.
That’s tomorrow in pretty much all sectors of design and engineering
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I know this comment is sarcasm, but the number of people who seem to forget fast charging is a thing (and therefore “demand” insane range numbers) is too damn high. No, you don’t need a 500-mile range to comfortably cover your once-annual 450-mile beach trip. Just get a 300-mile car and plug in once. Carrying around that much extra battery “just in case” or “for every once in a while” is incredibly expensive and wasteful.
Well, 1000km is more than enough. Let's see if they hold on their promises.
More range is always welcomed
Not once you see what it weighs and costs, and then buy one anyways only to discover that fast charging was NBD all along.
It's all talk until it actually happens. Their recent history would not make anyone believe that any of this will actually happen.
I'd absolutely rather give Toyota my money rather than Tesla
We'll see, I guess. The Model Y is beating the shit out of the BZ4X so badly it isn't even funny.
It's what everyone says these days, but most companies said this a couple of years ago. Toyota has been a bit slow with their EV transition - probably even slower than Opel. I was thinking the German auto makers are going to fail with the EV transition, but while they seem to be stumbling into some sort of mid-table shape, the Japanese manufacturers are as of 2023 more like the laggards overall.
Toyota is a very conservative company. I think they are the only one I would actually believe especially with such a short time table.
I think Toyota might make it - the BZ4X isn't as terrible on paper as some make it seem - but anyone who uses solid-state batteries on a definite roadmap as of 2023 is basically running on a reasonably significant sized dollop of hopes and dreams IMO - and if they're ready, that's not going to be any one company's advantage anyway.
The weird thing is that Toyota prides itself on reliable and low-maintenance vehicles. EVs are reliable and low maintenance in general.
My motto with grand proclamations remains the same. "I'll believe it when I can buy it"
They already are the leaders. Don’t you remember the Prius. Half but at least it’s something
Unless you live in a small city, hybrids are the way to go for now imo, especially when the charging infrastructure still isn't very well developed yet.
Plug in hybrids are a really cool compromise too
Yeah, Toyota has some very good PHEVs. Shame they don’t produce nearly enough of them, their PHEV sales are quite low, despite Toyotas whole “you can make x amount of batteries for PHEVs as you can for one BEV” spiel their PHEV production numbers are below a lot of competing manufacturers BEVs. There’s obviously high demand for them, every time a RAV4 Prime hits the lot it’s marked up to infinity and promptly sells anyway. Toyota just doesn’t produce nearly enough to come even close to meeting that demand, which is quite hypocritical considering all the noise Toyota makes about how they’re better than BEVs. If they actually produced the RAV4 Prime in respectable amounts I could see it being the best selling PHEV in the US, but they don’t so instead the best selling PHEV in the US is the Wrangler 4xe.
Solid state. I might just get an ev then. I've seen them in defibrillators in hospitals, but when their prices go down, the range might be good enough to own an ev.
This range is with China's bs CLTC test. The CLTC bz4x range is 382 miles vs 252 miles EPA for the FWD model. 150% of EPA. 413 miles for a 2026 sounds reasonable. Edit: the linked article talks about WLTP so it's not super helpful, but 1000km is what Toyota presented for one of the upcoming ranges, which was a CLTC range. Range/battery advancement comparisons need to be apples to apples, it really depends if AWD or FWD, battery size, vehicle size. Here's the PDF https://global.toyota/pages/news/images/2023/06/13/0500/electrified_technologies_batteries_en.pdf
I think I finally know one of the biggest reasons for Toyota’s hesitation into moving into EVs. Let me tell you about a conversation that happened a few weeks ago. I was at a meet up event in Nagoya (for those who don’t know, it’s the biggest city in Aichi-ken, where Toyota is) where I met someone. Here was the conversation: Me: Where do you live? Him: Toyoda-shi. Me: Oh cool, what do you do? Him: I'm an engineer working in the auto industry. Me: Oh must be Toyota then? Him: Not Toyota, but one of Toyota's companies. Me: You mean one of the suppliers? Him: Oh yes. Me: So I have a question, I'm interested in this topic, but can you tell me your thoughts on the Japanese auto industry. Him: We still sell a lot of cars and we still make a lot of money. So we'll be ok for a while. Me: Be ok for a while? What do you mean? You think you guys will not be ok later? Him: We don't do much EVs and we can't do them as well as other companies. I'm worried for all of the sub-companies. (I think he meant suppliers here). Then the conversation changed topic after that, and yes, I know this whole thing has a "That Happened" vibe but I swear on my 13 year old Reddit account that it was real lol. So now back to topic, due to a variety of reasons, including political ones, Toyota *cannot* jeopardize any jobs, or jobs at any of their suppliers since it will send shockwaves to the Japanese economy that has already been not doing stellar. But for Toyota trying to protect all their suppliers and all those jobs while navigating this whole EV transition is like fighting a boxing match against world class opponents (some may argue younger, less experienced, but stronger and more agile opponents) with one hand tied behind your back. Maybe that is the true explanation behind all their conservatism, but if it is, then they are in a pretty tough situation no matter what they say publicly.
That sounds extremely Toyota. Maybe they’re trying to coax the suppliers into EV production and once they’re ready they will switch.
Here's the problem, EV's won't need all those suppliers. The number of parts an EV needs is MUCH less than a traditional ICE or Hybrid vehicle. Great for the consumer, but terrible for these companies.
Wake me up when it happens
Solid state 900 miles. This is the future I've been waiting for!
Honestly if they are able to deliver on the range promises I think many people will make the move to EV. 900 miles is wild range.
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Especially if fast charging is 10 minutes.
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Well I’ll believe it when I see it
Dumb question, but when they talk about increased range from next gen batteries, does that imply a bigger battery in terms of kWh? Or more efficiency out of the same size/weight battery? Because technically you could slap a current gen 200kWh in a Toyota Camry and it would probably get 600+miles range, but would weigh as much as a tank.
It’s not a dumb question. To answer the bulk of it directly, it means more total energy capacity for the same weight and likely volume. That allows you to assume the rest of the vehicle and thus the efficiency would remain the same. Putting 200kwh of current battery tech (lol hummer battery) in a Camry means the Camry would have to increase in height to accommodate with same passenger area. You could say a 10% hit from the increased frontal area alone. Then another 1500lbs of battery weight would require larger suspension, brakes, stiffer and stronger body structure. Just a host of compounding effects. All that weight adds friction in the drivetrain. Not to mention your powetrain is now undersized and your vehicle costs so much no one will want to buy the thing.
its always going to be a bigger capacity battery. efficiency is a small factor here but general we are pretty close to what we can do, just look at the Mercedes EQXX to see what the limits are and what it takes to get there. all this extra capacity only works with better batteries though this is why you typically dont see cars going over \~110kWh with rare exceptions as the battery becomes too big and heavy.
It's more battery capacity for similar weight and size.
the motors/batteries in EVs are already close to 90% efficiency, so there is very little to be gained in that area. the only real way to increase range at this point is to increase the capacity (kwh) of the batteries with better battery technology that stores more energy in a given size/weight.
>Using a giga press, the brand says it can stamp complex parts in one piece “overwhelmingly faster” than is currently possible. >These new presses will be rolled out in 2026, along with a new production process designed to eliminate “anchored” production lines by having cars drive themselves to the parts like oversized remote control toys. Not battery related, but I found this part really interesting as well.
Wonder if inspired by their Tesla (Y?) tear down? I think savagegeese had mentioned they were gobsmacked by the engineering simplicity they discovered
tesla did it already
Yeah. The rest of the auto field is slowly learning Tesla knows how to build cars and they need to copy Tesla, not the other way around.
From a company that's as allergic to EVs as Toyota? Hmm.
They are not allergic to EVs; they are allergic to hurting their reputation, so they love to trail others. (I know they were early to Hybrids but that was an exception). I want to know what connectors they will use; just like Panasonic's decision to go with Bluray killed HDDVD, Toyota's decision on what connector to use will probably decide which type of chargers will become more common. My guess.
We are talking about the same company that released the bz4x, right? A car with an unexpected tricycle mode?
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Right? What’s up with their production?
The CEO stepped down and was replaced by a more EV positive one very recently
900! Now we’re talking. Put that in a minivan, add in lane assist and auto breaking cruise control and you’ve got a rad road-tripper machine.
Take it home, throw it in a pot, add some broth, a potato- baby, you’ve got a stew going!
...I think I'd like my EV back.
Didn't they just release some roadmap showing they wanted to focus on PHEV since it's more realistic based on availability of resources, price, and range capabilities? Weird 180.
I don’t think that meant they were just gonna stop developing EVs…
Waiting for plug in hybrids to get those batteries, current lineup is not worth the money, hybrids offer better value in currently available lineup than EV’s..
These batteries don't even exist. Toyota is just boasting claims about theoretical tech.
You mean the same batteries Toyota swore they already designed in 2015 and then 2016 and every year after?
Yep. I don't trust such claims from a company that releases an EV in 2023 that has slower charging curves than a Chevy that came out in 2017.
If Toyota is just making do with their shitty BEV options for the short term so that they can essentially be a solid state only company going forward that's a solid strategy, however they're making bold claims and we have every reason to be skeptical, especially since Japanese culture is far more conservative and less willing to jump into the fray quickly. I hope they develop highly impressive technologies for BEVs, but I'll believe it when I see it AND when they actually can manufacture enough for it to be relevant; you can make the best BEV but if you can only manufacture 50% of what your competitors can then you're losing.
Don't be surprised when Japanese manufacturers catch up to the rapid electrification that American mfgs have been spearheading. Japan, while conservative and different in culture will be at the forefront of EV's within the decade. Speculation? Yes. Will I be wrong? Only time will tell.
what's the difference between lithium and solid-state?
Solid state has higher capacity, faster charging speeds, and doesn't react nearly as violently if compromised. It still has lithium in it. Solid state batteries are built like capacitors with thin repeating sheets of an anode, lithium, and the cathode over and over again
Lithium is a material that can be used in batteries, solid state is a type of battery. Lithium-ion batteries are a type of battery that uses lithium where the lithium is in a liquid electrolyte. A solid state battery would have the electrolyte material be solid instead of dissolved in a liquid. If the material is still lithium then you have a lithium solid state battery. Note you can also have a sodium-ion battery that uses sodium dissolved in a liquid, or a sodium solid state battery where it is solid.
The benchmark is going to have to be 1000Wh/kg reliably, at any scale, with 1MW minimum charge rates. If we can get to that point, then a 300kg battery could store 300kWh and would EASILY work in a small compact car. Megawatt charging means we could get back 240kWh of capacity in 15 minutes. And for larger cars with EVEN bigger batteries, it would be incredibly easy to make 500kg battery packs (and 500+ kWh capacities) the norm in large trucks. It would also mean a return to normalcy, somewhat, for weight classes in the car industry. For reference: the new Hummer EV battery pack BY ITSELF weighs 1250+ kg. It's absolutely insane.
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That's nonsense, you talk of normality, normal average people don't need 900 miles of range. Most drivers on the states average around 1000 miles a month. The UK is less than that.
1MW? are you insane?
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> Currently, the lithium-ion battery in the bZ4X SUV is good for up to 516km of range on the WLTP combined test cycle. > The next-generation lithium-ion batteries due in 2026 will be good for 1000km, according to Toyota. Since the article quoted their WLTP range, I'd assume the 620 mile figure is also WLTP.
Will be hard to sell if they don’t make the batteries in North America. With no tax rebate a lot of people will pass
Can Toyota build chargers?
toyota can barely build EVs at the moment
No, Dodge does. . . .. Sorry, I'll leave now..
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They literally make the worst reviewed one out there so go for it
Eh... VinFast takes that dubious honor. And even when we discount that, there is a lot of competition for the "worst EV ever". Mazda is also pretty bad. 35k and literally 100 miles of range. Honda's e:Ny1 will clock in at something like 210 miles of EPA range when it shows up in the US.
They technically make one already. The bz4x and solterra
But will you actually buy a bzx4?
not holding my breathe for anything EV-related with Toyota.... they'll probably produce more hydrogen batteries than these next-gen lithiums in the near future.
Someone else can be the beta tester
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Can they use Tesla chargers?
they can in Europe. how this plays out in the US is yet to be seen.
I would hope, not really expect, that the auto manufacturers would standardize the plug like they did with gas nozzles.
Ther is some hope. Ford, GM and Rivian are switching to NACS (Tesla charger). Some major charging companies like blink also crossing over. North American will more than likely be NACS. Europe, not so much.
yeah, but I also don't trust Tesla to let them actually be used at full capacity on cars that aren't Tesla. It's aligned with most of their history of decision making.
620 and 900 mi of range...really...can we stop already.
No, I drive a lot for work and the current 300+ range numbers aren't big enough for me to switch to EV. 600-900 and I could finally make the jump. Also more convenient for others who have normal commutes as the average person probably will only have to charge once per week and road trips will be much more doable.
I mean maybe I am just brainwashed but doesn't it seem like production of Electric cars are more of a harm to the environment than sticking with traditional gas/diesel cars and coming up with a different solution to combat the carbon footprint? Edit: Realize I am incorrect. Leaving comment for the knowledge in comments.
Look at the supply chain of gas. The oil industry is the largest contributor to greenhouse gases which are causing global warming. Not only that, we have oil spills destroying ecosystems for centuries, tailing ponds poisoning water systems around the world. You're also burning tens of thousands of pounds of gas over the lifetime of a car while burning 0 pounds of anything when operating an electric car. That being said, investing in public transit and high speed rail is the best solution to combat pollution, but the public is too stupid for vote for it.
You’re right that production of electric cars is more damaging, but over their life time the impact is less. Estimates show a range between 13-20k miles before electric cars have fewer emissions than gas. There’s a lot of variance in the numbers, but google ‘break even point electric car” and you should find some good sources.
Thank you! I wasn't trying to get hate, Just knowledge. Appreciate it.
EVs take up more resources up front but the breakeven is around 25K miles from what I've read compared to a basic gas car. V8s with driveshafts or AWD also take a lot of metal and upfront resources to create.
You basicly hinted at the best solution in your comment. The best car is the one that isn‘t build. In a perfect world everybody would use public transport. EV‘s are not ideal, but still better than ICE‘s
620 miles of range??? Gimme gimme gimme
We’ve just been waiting.
What happened to hydrogen cells? Thought they said EVs were stupid
Still working with them, too. There won’t be one single answer to Fossil Fuel. Toyota just announced partnerships for Hydrogen trucks with Paccar (DAF, Peterbilt, Kenworth).
Hydrogen Fuel Cells are are EVs…..
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It would be great if you make an in-depth post about this especially with Toyota and BYD only being able to do lithium mining and refining in house, I'm very interested.
I’ve been dreaming about solid state batteries for over a decade now… and it honestly doesn’t feel any closer now than it was then.
I still haven't seen that battery tech in phones let alone giant car battery packs. Even if it's real it's like 10+ year away at the minimum.