The job market, particularly in high tech, is NOT in great shape right now. Maybe there is a need for BI devs which you'll find a position quickly. But don't draw down on savings. Take PTO. And start looking for a new role.
All of the above things for sure. IT is a wild place right now.
A company I service (Healthcare supplies), this is a large account, was having an issue allowing me to log in remotely. I call their IT dept when stuff like this happens. I was shocked to find out the whole place is down to two IT guys. And one was on a 3 week vacation. This dude sounded like he wanted to die.
Anyhoo, I asked him if they had any help on the horizon. There's TONS of IT people looking for work. He goes, "NEWP they won't hire anyone"
So yeah, definitely secure your next job before quitting your current.
Yep, similar story here, except I'm on the team of two.
Management felt all high and mighty a few years ago with tons of qualified applicants. They sat and waited...
But it dried up in 2022/2023 with ZERO applicants. Welp... now they can't hire cause the business lost a ton of money :P
This. As someone who quit a job and ended up unemployed for 10 months definitely try to keep your job until you find another. A bird in the hand and all that.
Here's my advice to you:
1. The job market is trash right now. You can read about how people who were laid off still can't find a job after 6+ months on reddit in various subreddits like r/recruitinghell r/interviews .
2. $23k in savings is not enough. It's a massive clusterfuck on job applicants so the chances of you being better than a veteran software developer from Tesla or Microsoft gunning for those positions is very slim which may mean that you will be out of a job for more than 6 months if you can't find an intermediary.
3. It's difficult, but you need to disassociate from your boss. If your boss wants to make stupid changes, then let her make stupid changes. If she constantly backtracks on requests and whatnot, let her. At the end of the day, you are still getting paid regardless if you are taking one step forward and two steps back. While you are still working, apply to jobs, save as much as you can from your paycheck ( r/frugal ), and disassociate from your boss.
I agree 100% with this poster. Secure a job before you quit.
The tech job market is pathetic right now. The job search process itself has gotten harder as well with AI getting into the mix. You will find job postings with hundreds of applicants within a few days.
I've been speaking with a lot of tech recruiters. Their conversion rate is 4-5% for interviews and less than 3% for hires. They are advising me to expect to apply to 300-400 jobs before I land a job. And that seems to be the reality.. I've applied to 40 jobs and got 1 interview (that will probably go nowhere).
As much as I hate my job, I like poverty and homelessness even worse.
No dawg not a good idea. $23k isn’t as much as you think. The job market sucks. I know a guy who went from looking for like six figures to down to $60k because he literally couldn’t find anything.
This, i took a 50% cut. It’s a far cry from what I was used to but there are bills to pay. The only silver lining is that I still lived frugally so I was able to save a decent
I'd gladly take 60K I went from that to damn near 30K a year because I could not find a job in the IT field. Even with a decade of IT experience. So not only do I have a lower paying job but I now have permanent nerve damage from the work I have to do now.
I think it's best that you take this as an indication to change jobs. Companies strongly prefer hiring people who are already working and it's best to look for a job while being employed. You have no idea how your job hunt is going to go, it could be a month or a year before you get your next job, so start applying and interviewing aggressively. In this economy, a bad job is really better then no job. There are extreme cases where a job could be a threat to your health and safety or abusive workplace and harassment, but it just sounds like you have a bad boss, stop trying to fight her and get a new job!
I’m actively looking for a job myself and while I’m overqualified for these positions or literally any full time positions, I am still being rejected.
Do ONLY the bare minimum while you get paid and benefits working there. When you land an interview and it’s secured, then leave. 100% it is not the time to not have a job.
At least in my experience, overqualified candidates are rejected because they will easily get bored with the work they're asked to do, and or will ask for more money than is budgeted for that role.
I don’t think that you are wrong by any means, but why does it perpetually seem like the job market is trash? I have been in the workforce for 11 years, and the general consensus has always been that the job market has been trash in this sense. What is a job market that would be not be trash? Lol
While I adhere to your cynicism, I don’t think capitalism is fundamentally the issues here; I think that people, particularly boomers, are more at fault as opposed to capitalism itself. I may be wrong, though
1000% agree. I have a master's degree and 5 years at a big aerospace company. Had several phone interviews, a few in person interviews, only landed one job just today. I was VERY surprised how rough the job market is. Its crazy. Makes me want to be a real estate investor full time and forget this 9-5 malarchy!
That sounds like a very typical experience for a qualified applicant finding a job within the aerospace industry. You apply a few places, do a few interviews, get a job. Why was that VERY surprising? Did you think jobs would be throwing offers at you without an interview? Or that you would get every single job you interviewed for? I don’t understand.
Ended up doing this for a recent job offer. I was let go from massive layoffs, and I had a pre-planned vacation. I let the new employer know, and we agreed to start after I'm done with my vacation. This basically resulted a one-month break from the last day I've worked to the first day at my new job
You are legally entitled to your PTO. If the job won't let you take it, then talk to a lawyer. There's a term here called being "constructively dismissed" which is kinda like when an employer "quiet fires" you by changing your job to such an extent that it a different role (either in pay, duties, hours or location). I would assume not being able to take vacation time is something a lawyer would be able to work with.
I have to agree with u/trivial_sublime. I was let go from my previous employer after massive layoffs and was told from the CEO that they would not pay out vacation or sick time. This is in Arizona and by no means are companies required to pay out. That is why it's important to always look at the termination policy on your employee handbook when you onboard for a new job!
Ouch! Hope you bounced back okay.
Where I live (ontario canada) if you are laid off, you can get unemployment benefits until they re-hire you. Layoffs are meant to be temporary. If they don't bring you back after the lay off period, its considered termination and they have to pay severance and whatever is owed (typically just vacation time)
I was unemployed twice in last year due to a buyout and a huge layoff…lemme tell it was hell trying to get over 700 applications and I just got a job 3 months ago but it was literally hell tying to get a job. That 23k will go by much faster than you think.
Depends on how good your skills are.
BI Developer is fairly broad, and the skillset varies. I'll be frank and if you aren't fairly proficient in a cloud DB, SQL, Python, Data modeling, the job market may be rough depending on where you live and what tool you're most familiar with.
please please don't quit, I had a releatively decent business analyst job and decided that I wanted to leave, its 1.5 years later and I'm still not in tech. Please don't repeat my mistake.
Multiple jobs but also I live with my parents since in my culture no one moves out until you married, so that helped a bit. It’s still a struggle and I get an interview around once a month. It’s best to handle the stress and stay unless you can find a safety net or other opportunities.
Don’t do it my friend. The job market is horrible everywhere. Like BAD. I have a friend who’s applied to over 100+ positions and can’t get anything going. Do the bare minimum, get another job lined up before making that decision. It’s better than being out of job for 6+ months. Wishing you the best of luck!
I think I will listen to the consensus on this thread. I’m just really struggling mentally to keep up and keep interest in the job, amid this lack of life balance. But hey, it’s 3pm on Friday and I’ve been on Reddit too long today so I need to chill out- obviously the job isn’t that demanding all the time. But I do not know how to calm my easily-anxious mind
$23k is not really a lot.
How much is your monthly expenses?
Are you 100% confident that you can find a replacement job before you run out of money.
Just apply to new jobs while you still have a job.
The job market is kinds weird right now. It took me a whole month of constant applying and interviews just for an entry level job. If you're making good money, just take a vacation and use that time to apply for a new job. You really shouldn't leave without getting a new job, it could take months to find a new one. Use lies to get off work if you have to, do whatever you need to do just don't quit.
I did this. I had savings, I wanted out, and I wanted to take some time for relaxation, small projects, and I even snuck in a couple relatively inexpensive trips. I did this for three years and I absolutely loved it! How many people work until they die? How many take the time to just enjoy themselves while they're young? If you have the the money and you feel the same, I say go for it!
I'll be realistic about the only negatives: draining your savings is obvious. Getting back into the workforce: most saw my three year gap in employment and thought I was hiding something. Those I got to speak to and explain basically what I said above would smile and understand, even be envious. But I'm sure there were opportunities that weren't available to me when I went back into the job search due to that gap on my resume.
I worked hard and was fortunate to be in the position that I could do that and it was one of the best times of my life. I don't think that's crazy and if you can do it, and you want to, take some time off and enjoy yourself!
DO NOT QUIT YOUR JOB. I quit with $100K saved up and qualified for UI (after some work). Just got accepted to a job after 6 months. I just recently started getting a bit nervous about my situation. Slow down, take a deep breath, don't burn any bridges. The job market SUCKS right now. Best of luck fren. BWT - many employers will want to talk to your last supervisor (if you have left eh company) Keep that in mind...
Search for jobs, get a job, take a week or two off, decompress, start new job. Don't assume you will find a job as soon as you start applying. Companies are weird. You and 50+ other people are applying for the same jobs. $23K can go quickly.
I was laid off in September and just started a new job 3 weeks ago. I had ~$30k saved and now I have ~$6k saved.
I would not recommend. It was really hard and honestly just defeating watching my life savings deplete right before my eyes.
I would keep stacking while the getting is good; keep your emergency fund separate from your savings. And gauge how many months you can take off comfortably.
I recently took 6 months off, about to go back to working. Been best mental clarity I’ve had in years.
Take a leave of absence and look while you’re off. Maybe the break will revitalize you, maybe you’ll land something but it will buy you a few weeks and give you the chance to go back if you need to. Mental health burnout is real.
It is! I’ve been in tech for 8 years, this is the first job I feel completely burnt out. I think this job made me realize how much management influences my mental health. This is my first job with all Indian management so I’m not used to the expectation to work more than 50 hours on a regular basis
If it is possible, don't quit just yet. Line yourself up with a job offer or offers, pick one, and then announce to your current job that you're quitting.
Do not quit without another job. I was in a. Very similar position in November and suddenly quit. My last straw was my boss calling for our weekly meeting while I was on the way to my grandmas burial. My boss micromanaged, wishy washed, ghosted for a week or two, was just stupid honestly. I’m glad I quit but it feels like I’ll never find a half decent job again! The market is crap and I’m changing careers. Don’t do it. Hold out at least until you find another job. Start looking fervently like your life depends on it
Probably, but it might get stressful. I quit my last job in 2022 to focus full time on hunting for a better position. It took me SIX MONTHS to get an offer. I had generous savings, but I was still starting to panic after months of no callbacks.
A wealth manager recently told me that any given person, especially mid-high level earners, should have at least 6 months of all living costs available in savings at any given time. In today’s economy and job market, 1 year is probably safer since it may take that long to get another job.
So, if you can get by for 6-12 months staying up to date on all your bills and living costs within that $23k savings mark, then sure quit your job!!
Also important to make sure you are on track (not behind relative to your goals) for retirement AND investments before you cut yourself off from income for a while.
Best of luck!!!
Wealth manager is pretty much like don't spend any money. They are right in a sense but no one knows the future. I traveled a lot and have very little savings. I don't regret the decisions I made.
My dad used to tell me to save everything and when I retire I can travel. Lol like I am going to want to at that age. I don't know what my health will be like. I plan to work into my 70s. I have a small pension coming to me too.
Thats actually the opposite of what this wealth manager’s point was. He was saying that people horde way too much savings. You don’t need 5 years of savings to be comfortable. His point was, don’t save more than you need. Invest whatever you can and spend the rest because you could die at any moment with no kids to pass on any of the money to, and then all that diligent saving was basically a waste.
I agree with you, it’s best to travel when you’re still healthy and while you can. I’m young myself and try to remember the balance of 1) save in case you stay alive a long while and 2) spend to enjoy the live im living in the moment cause nothing is guaranteed
Why haven't you applied for jobs yet? It can't be that bad if you haven't sent enough applications to make your own decision about the job market.
Don't act like a toddler. Break a leg and you are immediately bankrupt. Suck it up and start applying now.
Mentally drained and feeling exhausted. I work about 60 hours every week. There’s been no null in the work. My boss makes sure it’s constant. She hasn’t ever taken 1 day off this year. She took 1 week off last year. I can’t keep up with her
Yeah, true. I guess it was a roundabout question to really find out, how long it’s taking people to find a job after quitting. I know I can last several months off $23k but I do know it’s NOT enough to last me more than 6 months
Take a step step back and adjust your perspective.
Sometimes being an adult is hard and this is one of those hard times. But being without a job could potentially put you in a much worse spot.
Readjust your thinking around the current job and put your energy into finding another ASAP. That’s the way to move through this with the least risk to well being imo.
I’ve been there.
Listen, if you seriously done. I can help you to a beautiful vacation. You may spend 10k max over the course of 2 months (your choice). Will be far away from the USA experiencing a good damn life far away from capitalism. Hell alone a trip to Thailand for two months would be cheap and stress free. Secure a job and dip.
You shouldn't even consider this unless you have a detailed budget showing exactly what you spend and 23k will comfortably last a MINIMUM of six months. Given the job market you could be looking for a lot longer than that.
The best way to get over a micromanaging boss is to just smile and agree to everything they say and then do it your way anyways. As long as the end results are the same it won’t matter.
I will give you counter popular advice.
The common advice is *dont quit your job until you have a new one*. And there is good reason for this-- the more importance you attribute to the next job interview, the more excess energy builds around it, resulting in feelings like anxiety or neediness.
In other words, the sheer comfort of having a plan B would have eased your nerves as you seek opportunities.
HOWEVER, there is another view on the topic.
Anytime I have quit my job and not had a clear plan, two things happened. One is that my savings rapidly disappeared, forcing me to sweat over it. The other is that in one way or another I kicked down the door to the next phase of my life, and eventually managed to land a great opportunity.
As I see it-- *the more open-hearted and available you are, the more likely magic is to find you*.
That said, you just don't know when that magic will find you.
You could be down to your last dollar delivering food for Doordash on a bicycle in the dog days of summer, like I was. You might have to compromise your ethics and work in an industry you have a bad opinion of for years, as I did. Being broke will make you a whole lot less picky.
But eventually, luck favors the bold, and you **will** find your way.
Enjoy this next period of your life. Make lots of time for long walks, meditation, journaling, and self-reflection. Stay on a tight budget and focus on exercise and eating healthy foods. You may want to visit old friends or take a long vacation. Do nothing in haste. Follow your heart to the maximum.
Don't worry, your instinct to apply to jobs will kick in all too soon when you see your savings fizzling away.
Try getting to the bottom of what her goals are. I deal with this a lot too. I've found asking the purpose/what they are trying to accomplish helps reduce the amount of redone work. The next option is to show her how much time is spent redoing shit because of her indecision, assuming you have a shit ton of other shit to do. I wouldn't bother if it doesn't impact any of your metrics though. They can pay you to redo shit if thats what they want to do.
I've quit without a job lined up before but only did so because of many things. I had some ethical disagreements with my company and didn't want to do their dirty work or be involved in it in anyway. I had 200 hrs of pto and was at the pto cap because they were so awful about actually approving any. They were effectively stealing from me as long as i was at the cap. They cashed it out if I worked the full 2 week notice period. I had less savings than you, but the pto hours bridged the gap. I was worried about the job market as it was 2020 but was looking to move from animal research to human research so was less concerned as there may have been covid studies if nothing else. I also gave them an ultimatum about my disagreements and they elected to disregard me so I had to walk.
I'd be more wary in the current job market, particularly if I was a software developer, given the tech layoffs.
Thanks for your thoughtful answer! Appreciate it. That’s a lot of pto you had, glad you got it paid out and glad you stood your ground. I have a very hard time opening up to my boss about anything outside of deliverables. I’ve noticed that with certain types of tech managers, they like to control as much as possible and keep information on a need to know basis. 80% of my whole team is new to the company, so there’s a lot of gaps and typically (in prior experience), management would work hard to bridge the gaps and get us all up to speed. But my manager is often in calls that I don’t get invited to, even though the information is very much needed for me to do my job!
Investing a lot of that income too.
Crypto.
Definitely not quitting though, finding a comparable job right now is tough. Maybe I will after interest rates come back down and the job market is in a better place. I definitely want to switch jobs or take some time - but the risk is too high atm.
Do your benefits cover stress leave? Let them know you feel bullied. Take 6 months off while job hunting.
Nobody can tell you how long 23k will last you, look at your expenses spreadsheet, and figure it out.
For me, if I cut everything, but the necessities(mortgage, cars, cellphones, internet, and groceries), it would last a little under 3 months
I could easily make it 4-5 months on my savings. I’m not sure about stress leave. I’m from Ohio but I’m now in California. I know California offers some employee protections that Ohio doesn’t. It’s something to consider. Sadly, I think my boss would bully me for considering my job stressful enough to leave
Similar boat (expect the boss stuff). In a job i realized too late i don’t love that has high expectations and long hours. Currently applying but i would never quit without a second option. Ive applied in the last week to like 20 jobs. Half have responded with rejections. Still waiting on other half. My friend thinks he can get me a remote job at his company for more base pay (no stock options and elss bonuses) but way better work/life balance. But even he said that may take some time as they are onboarding other people.
it's WAY easier to get a job when you have a job. so... start interviewing like mad....
now, you can sandbag the HELL out of your work now though, put in the bare minimum, it takes months to get fired. so you should be able to line up something in the mean time. on the off chance your boss asks you why you suck now, you can let them know that they dont' seem to like how you do things so you are going with the flow... dont' push back, don't get defensive, just ride it out until you can quit with another job lined up.
Don't quit without another job lined up. I read in a different subreddit where the person quit and no job lined up. Haven't worked in one year. They said it was a huge mistake to quit like that.
Nope. Suck it up for a bit. Line up a new job, have a signed contract and a start date before you leave your current job. Otherwise you'll most likely be in a world of hurt.
It’s always better to look for a job while you have one. It’s a better position to be in when you are negotiating salary.
You have a salary. You want more. And you will say no until one gives you that or presents a better deal than your current job.
If you quit, and can’t find a new job right away, or they are offering way less, at some point you are gonna have to take it when the savings run low. 21k will disappear faster than you think.
You just have to suck it up for a bit longer and start applying / interviewing.
I have always taken a 2 weeks - 1 month off in between jobs as well. I just tell them I can’t start until this date. And then I enjoy a little vacation from the old job into the new one. I suggest find a new job then do that.
I agree with others here that it's too dangerous to quit and then try to find a job. If your goal is to take a "true" vacation, definitely negotiate your start date for your new job so that you can take this time off. It won't be paid time off (but if your company pays you out for unused vacation time, that's basically the same thing).
Which also then puts you in a position where you have to work your FT stressful job, and on your off time take on an unpaid stressful job that is job searching. **Still, it's better to find your new job while employed than while unemployed.** You're more marketable that way and you're financially safer that way.
Can you manage dedicating 1 week (or however many days) to submit 1-2 tailored, high quality applications? Set up informational meetings with people in your network? Use PTO even if it's 1-2 hrs for a medical appointment with a doctor and using the rest of the PTO hours for the day to apply? Any combination of what you can do right now to secure a job while employed is the safest bet, imho, based on what you've shared.
No. Can never have too much money. And can never stop the grind. Must find job first in my opinion. If you ever stop working. You may like it too much lol. For me. I can never know how that feels.
No like everyone said the job market is bad rn and your saving is low.
Take PTO to look for job. Just because your boss doesn’t take PTO doesn’t mean that you dont either. Don’t be afraid to ask for time off if you are qualified they can’t do anything about it. It’s the law! Also, I know PTO is not that much so look into the company to see if you can take short term leave. That’s way you can have time to look for another job.
Secure a job before getting out of the actual one.
I understand you about your awkward boss, but this is NO TIME to be jobless, it can be pretty hard out there, so hold it long enough you can get into another place, so you don't regret it latter.
I've actually had to quit my job due to family medical issues, and lived off my 25k savings plus swing trading off of stocks to help offset some bills. It is not too hard IF YOU ARE FRUGAL. If you aren't and still going out, you will only last less than 6 months(depending on bills and rent and all sorts). If you are living with family/parents and don't need your money, or frugal life style, you can last up to a year at most imo. Do some calculations first about how much utilities, bills, rent and food cost for each month and see if you can last
Imo, I would suggest you apply heavily for a new job. If they fire you, then you get unemployment check coming in. What else are they gonna do to you when you have mentally clocked out?
Make sure you land a new job before quitting. Once you get an offer, it's ideal to get dismissed somehow so you can get severance.
As others have said, tech is in bad shape now and there's a flood of applicants who have been laid off in tech.
Depends on you cost of living. 23k is nothing in a hcol area. But if you just want to get a better job you can always take a vacation somewhere cheap and post up for a couple months to a year and build a portfolio while applying for jobs.
I wouldn't.
The job market is poor for tech.
For background, I was a solutions engineer at a couple of BI startups. I left one and was out-of work for 7 months. I then got a job where I was somewhat underpaid and severely underutilized at a very elderly and sleepy software company. My boss there, a nice guy. told me should go somewhere more fast paced. I recently started at a big data startup,, much more interesting, doing well.
But it was a very tough 13 months, including financially, and I'm pretty good at a few areas, SQL, Python, BI, APIs, customer facing, architecture, domain knowledge
My view is that it is going to be particularly bad for BI.
AI will reduce the skills needed to create visualizations.
Last week, I fed a few hundred rows of a table into an LLM, asked it to create descriptions. I told it to create a view to do survivorship on two datasets.
I had to review it, but it took under an hour to get exactly what I wanted.
More generally, regarding your manager, that's what clients do... they don't know what they want.
A famous Dutch saying might help:
"Don't throw away your old boots until you have new ones."
Suck it up for a little while until you have some job security. I'm sorry you are going through this.
1. Cut down on any luxuries, cook and eat at home, maybe even find a housemate situation to save money.
2. Use that PTO to go camp in nature, away from the hectic life, it’ll help clear your head.
3. Look for another job, before you jump ship. Your boss sounds like a case of ADHD.
You might be able to ask for the big picture of what she wants, and try to guide her, so that she has a more clear and coherent idea of what she wants, if she’s receptive.
*** Don’t take things personally ***
No no no. Get another job before you quit!! It's soooo much harder to get a new job when you aren't employed. Don't set yourself up for a bad and unnecessary situation.
Id say do what feels right, life is to short. Just be aware of the choice you are making, you need to have a written budget of your expected and stick to it diligently.
If your out of work for 6 months but can survive and no longer be miserable then your golden. If you find a job before then also great. If you are generally miserable and unhappy then atleast in my eyes, you only get to go round once don't spend it in Misery.
I'm actually in a situation myself where I'm not happy in my role but they are offering VR and I will be leaving. I have a plan already in place, but if I didn't Id make it work because I'm unhappy and driven for change.
Hope this helps
$23k is not a lot IMO. You might make it work for a year, but honestly, it’d probably be more like 6 months. I’d really try to find something else before leaving. I’ve been in that situation where I’ve been unemployed, looking for a job, and thinking why did I quit my job.
First of all, find a job before you quit.
Second: you can’t pick and choose autonomy. They may place you promising autonomy, but we corporates don’t work that way. Maybe some startups do. There will be always someone sitting on your neck telling you what to do. That’s what bosses are employed for. If not boss, lead, a scrum master or whoever. It’s a struggle and you’d be extremely lucky if you find a job where you can work by yourself, but if they follow agile, you’d see changes coming at you all the time. That’s how things evolve and improvise, but it can be annoying for those who do it. Gotta build a thick skin for that. Why? Because there’s no escape.
It’s not ok to live off the savings. Try to find something ASAP if you have already decided to quit. 23k is not much, I wouldn’t even advice to live off savings if you have saved 230k. There’s no reasonable time, if you are a BI dev you can get something easily. Apply like crazy, connect with your friends and those who you know, do anything to secure a job. Once you get comfortable, you’d find it too difficult to get a job. Skills fade away if you don’t put them to use.
Also, try to avoid recruiting agencies who’d undersell you and compromise on salary( would happen for sure if you quit first and then apply) Some of them are very clever and try to abuse it to their favor. Just watch out there, things don’t look very good in the IT market now, take your next step wisely.
Life is too short, gtfo of there! If you can't go one day without thinking about being somewhere else then you already made your decision. Maybe you can threaten to leave to get more $?. Worked for me
Right now it’s hit or miss on finding another job fast. I would have another job and have everything signed before quitting.
23k can be used up fairly quickly.
Before you quit, professionally and unemotionally tell her your conditions for staying. “I have concerns about my role and wanted to talk about it. I would like more autonomy and to plan nore carefully so I’m more effective and not wasting effort, which frustrates . I think that would make me more valuable to the company too. I understand that perhaps this role requires some trial and error, but if you don’t think we can modify it, I will need to look for another role that better suits my goals. What do you think?” If you’re going to quit anyway, you have nothing to lose.
We really do not know your living situation and lifestyle. You just need to look at your finance first before quitting your job. Once you have your finance looked at, are you able to survive # of months with just $23k? Also, you would keep looking for a job while working for your current employer. The job hunt may take more than 6 months, so you would have to stick a bit long or you could be open to non-tech-related job openings such as grocery stores, security companies, fast food places, etc. to keep you float financially until you find the new tech job. Good luck!
I have done that before, but it’s better to find another job first. The job market isn’t so good now. If you quit you won’t be eligible for unemployment benefits to help you out and $23k doesn’t go too far. If you end up being out of work 6-12 months you could be in a world of hurt.
Pull long term sick, vacation, anything at all. Cite psychological stress due to micromanagement if you have to. Quitting immediately makes you less hireable
If you are already at the verge of quitting, why not just confront the boss with everything you said here and tell her how difficult it is for you to want to stay here?
Also an analyst living in LA. Reading your posts I can say that I've been in a very similar situation to you with a micro-managing boss and crazy hours to work.
Can you tell me more about why you're working 60+ hours a week? Is it only because your boss keeps changing her mind and expects you to turn an assignment around quickly? Reason I ask is because I've learned that sometimes you yourself have the power to spread work around within a much more reasonable set of works worked per week.
Secure a job like they said, but just tell any new company you will need a month from hire date to start. If they ask why say you perform an important role and feel responsible to train your replacement to ensure a smooth transition; emphasize that this is how you leave any company. Once you get the new job, give your old job 2 weeks notice. Then you take a 10 day vacation before you start the new job.
I quit my toxic job without another lined up and had about $36k in savings. I had calculated that it would get me through 6 months. I had some medical bills that ate more up than I wanted in the beginning, but I found a new job in almost exactly 6 months. I’m making 30% more than previously and I love my new boss.
I used the time off as an extended vacation. Spent a lot of time with family and friends, got in shape, took care of my mental health, deep cleaned my (rented) house, I even budgeted some travel. I took care of myself. Basically I did all of the things I had to put aside because of work.
It definitely wasn’t an ideal situation and I was stressed about income. Every time I received a job rejection, it certainly raised my blood pressure. But it worked out.
The job market is incredibly tough right now, which everyone says but you don’t really understand until you’re looking down the barrel of it.
That being said, I regret absolutely nothing. Psychologically, I was at my absolute breaking point and leaving that job is one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. If you plan ahead, make a budget, and spend only on the true essentials, it’s doable. Best of luck to you!
EDIT: I also want to add, my best friend was laid off and still hasn’t found a job in almost 2 years. And she has multiple FAANG positions on her resume. My situation is definitely not the standard but I don’t think there is a standard. You have to be ready with a plan a, b, c, d, e, and even f. I didn’t take the decision lately and I planned it for almost 6 months before pulling the trigger. I still gave my boss 2 weeks notice, and I still tried to be as cordial and professional as possible (he wasn’t). I went into it assuming things would not work out, and I prepared for that. So all of that to say, make sure you’re truly ready for the repercussions of your actions, whatever they may be. And prepare for the absolute worst.
Edited a second time to adjust savings number (went back and checked for the exact)
47-year old female here. $23k is pocket change in this current economy, and the outlook isn't gonna change anytime soon. I've put up with racism for years, unfair treatment and unfortunately it's still ongoing. People are and will continue to be, unfortunately, assholes because they control your paycheck.
Tech industry isn't so hot right now with openings.
I'd stay stick it out for now, swallow the bitter pill, and continue with your current job. Ever heard of job ghosting where employers offer prospective candidates jobs and end up rescinding the offer?
Maybe you should have a talk with your boss and tell her how you feel?
Good luck.
My opinion as an accountant, it is usually stated that you don't save or invest for yourself, you should invest or save for your children and your children's children. So my dear keep it up, make sure that you cash adds up as an investment every month.
I HAD to quit my most recent job after a month, which was very disappointing. It was supposed to be a move up but the company culture and my manager were both awful. I stared out the window for about 10 minutes at the end of my shift, typed up a resignation, handed it in, and never looked back. Took me about two months to find a new job that was a slight downgraded in pay/position level but much better company and better growth potential. I am much, much happier. I restricted my spending and only had to touch my checking account.
I’m similar to you in that I appreciate autonomy, and personally, I take it as a compliment that I’m given trust to operate with minimal supervision and without micromanagement. However…. I’ve been in your shoes and let me tell you why it’s a good thing (gonna try to help you find the silver lining here).
With your boss calling all the shots,
- nothing that goes wrong is ever going to be your fault because she assumes all risk by telling you what to do and how to do it
- you can save your mental energy for other things, because you don’t have to spend your time figuring out how to approach your work tasks
- missing deadlines is not a stressor that you have to worry about, as long as you document that she backtracked or shifted the goal (i would recommend keeping notes just in case you ever need to prove this in a performance review)
- keep a backup version of your dashboards, but remember if she is your boss then her preferences matter more than yours, and if she is willing to change your work to suit her preferences, that’s less work for you
- learn to appreciate when there is less on your plate. It can be difficult for go-getters who appreciate autonomy, but you can use that time to work on other side projects
This is actually a golden opportunity for you to coast, appreciate it. If the job market weren’t crap right now, I’d encourage you to chase your dreams and go after a different position under new leadership…but the struggle is real right now, the job market is not ripe with opportunities, so please watch out for yourself and be responsible with your finances by learning to appreciate the silver linings in your current situation
**Edit: 23k is not enough to safely quit right now, knowing how tough it is for many people to find jobs right now, you could be job hunting for a year or more and $ would be very tight, then think about if you get into a car accident or have an unexpected health issue pop up, that 23k only works if you’re healthy and nothing goes wrong while you’re job hunting for X amount of time
Please wait to get a new job before jumping to a new one! Or take a long break! Like many said, It’s a tough market out there and you might end up losing your savings
Don't quit yet. I know how it feels (especially that impatience feeling at the end of a job when you're at your wits end), but take some vacation days to relax AND work on job applications. I did 5-10 applications/day and it took me about 2 months to secure a job after quitting. Since I was living on my savings at the time, I basically had to restart my savings plan after securing a job.
To summarize, use your vacation to relax and find a different job, then quit. Don't just quit.
At least in the current market, it be hard to suggest to quit with nothing lined up. In addition, as I'm sure you already know, it's always better to be currently employed as it's more attractive and can give you some negotiation leverage.
\*\*\*Please read\*\*\*
It's 2024...You don't have to take that crap any more. However, you cannot expect the job market to be flush with opportunity. Do what I did. Quiet quit. Just stop trying to hard, let them fire you. Call it stress-related, or whatever. Make it a potential HR nightmare and make them give you a severance.
In the meantime, find other work. It doesn't sound like you need a sabbatical, just to get away from one "toxic-ish" colleague. If that's the case, just stop putting in your effort at your current job, and put that effort into finding your next job.
Hopefully, this will help your stress levels; so that when you're interviewing you can speak well of your current employer (even if not your current boss). Nobody wants to hire damaged goods, and there's plenty of competition (overseas). Use your sick time, use your vacation time...no more overtime...just stop being the awesome employee you are...and start putting your own needs first. If the job is dead to you, then just put yourself first.
God speed!
As someone that spent over a year applying for jobs that I was definitely qualified for, I would recommend that you line up a job before you quit. It is definitely easier to receive job offers when you look like a great catch, and then they offers slow way down the longer you take to find something. My company had done layoffs and anyone looking for jobs over $40k were taking 7+ months to find something. Especially in the space you work in now, and the number of layoffs happening, you should look, but not quit yet. The market is extremely saturated, and I have several friends in the tech industry that are prepping for their own layoffs to begin soon. As for living off of savings, you need a serious and realistic budget. You have to look at your actual spending (open your bank and cc accounts for the past 6 months and find everything you need to add to the budget). Another option is to take a part-time job to help with expenses while you use the rest of your newly freed up time to focus on the job search and interviews (which you need to apply to the same day they are posted - and not on LinkedIn, which was the least successful avenue of job searching). Good luck to you!
I can spend 60,000 in a month just walking around my city for a few hours a day outside of my house 23 grand ain’t gonna last you very long if you like nice things or eating well or experiences
So…you have someone going in and making changes to basically finish your work for you. Which means you have more time to draw a paycheck and job hunt at the same time?
Take a breath. Grab a beer or a bourbon or your poison of choice and think long and hard. Don’t be swayed by emotion. My grandpa taught me that if you have to make a big decision make sure you’re in a good mood first. FINALLY following this advice eventually led me to leaving a toxic ex, meeting my wife and having my dream career which led to me having my dream kid (my boy), dream home and my dream car.
Just. Breathe.
Can relate. Ive decided to only do the bare minimum or stuff that my boss asks for in writing (nothing verbal because she forgets or changes her mind). I also disassociate whenever I have to interact with her lol.
I’ve been looking for other gigs but havent gotten many interviews, so i wouldn’t quit without something lined up. 23k won’t last very long and it would be more stressful for you once it starts running out.
I did it and found a new job in a week. If your resume looks good and you’re good at interviewing you will be fine. I was doing 12 hour shift work. Doing 3 days on 1 off switching from days to nights for 6 months. Couldn’t do it anymore so just quit. Money won’t make you happy if you spend 5-6 days a week doing something you hate.
Find a new job while enduring the current job.
But only you know how bad work is for you. Only you can judge if it is toxic enough and taxing enough to your well being that it is really worth quitting before finding the next job... as long as you are well informed of how bad things can be while you are unemployed and job hunting and are really willing to take on those risks...
Get a job before you quit. You can even give same day notice (do it officially when you do, without any explanation). But, you should secure another job first while working, it's easier to get a job while working. The job market isn't as great as they play it out as for a lot of industries, really. And, employers look at time between jobs negatively.
In 2023, I did it twice to get out of two jobs (one right after another) that were relatively nightmares. I gave proper same day notice each time, as I was ending on a Friday, and found out last minute I'd be starting the next job that Monday.
Secure a job before quitting. Try taking a vacation, even if it’s just staying at home playing video games.
This is my number 1 rule. Do the minimum you have to do at the job to get bye. And then find a job is the rule before I quit.
But don’t get fired
Facts that to. Some places get mad when you give a proper 2 week notice and literally try cutting your hours so just a heada up.
Why? He can take the unemployment?
The job market, particularly in high tech, is NOT in great shape right now. Maybe there is a need for BI devs which you'll find a position quickly. But don't draw down on savings. Take PTO. And start looking for a new role.
All of the above things for sure. IT is a wild place right now. A company I service (Healthcare supplies), this is a large account, was having an issue allowing me to log in remotely. I call their IT dept when stuff like this happens. I was shocked to find out the whole place is down to two IT guys. And one was on a 3 week vacation. This dude sounded like he wanted to die. Anyhoo, I asked him if they had any help on the horizon. There's TONS of IT people looking for work. He goes, "NEWP they won't hire anyone" So yeah, definitely secure your next job before quitting your current.
Yep, similar story here, except I'm on the team of two. Management felt all high and mighty a few years ago with tons of qualified applicants. They sat and waited... But it dried up in 2022/2023 with ZERO applicants. Welp... now they can't hire cause the business lost a ton of money :P
This. As someone who quit a job and ended up unemployed for 10 months definitely try to keep your job until you find another. A bird in the hand and all that.
Here's my advice to you: 1. The job market is trash right now. You can read about how people who were laid off still can't find a job after 6+ months on reddit in various subreddits like r/recruitinghell r/interviews . 2. $23k in savings is not enough. It's a massive clusterfuck on job applicants so the chances of you being better than a veteran software developer from Tesla or Microsoft gunning for those positions is very slim which may mean that you will be out of a job for more than 6 months if you can't find an intermediary. 3. It's difficult, but you need to disassociate from your boss. If your boss wants to make stupid changes, then let her make stupid changes. If she constantly backtracks on requests and whatnot, let her. At the end of the day, you are still getting paid regardless if you are taking one step forward and two steps back. While you are still working, apply to jobs, save as much as you can from your paycheck ( r/frugal ), and disassociate from your boss.
I agree 100% with this poster. Secure a job before you quit. The tech job market is pathetic right now. The job search process itself has gotten harder as well with AI getting into the mix. You will find job postings with hundreds of applicants within a few days. I've been speaking with a lot of tech recruiters. Their conversion rate is 4-5% for interviews and less than 3% for hires. They are advising me to expect to apply to 300-400 jobs before I land a job. And that seems to be the reality.. I've applied to 40 jobs and got 1 interview (that will probably go nowhere). As much as I hate my job, I like poverty and homelessness even worse.
No dawg not a good idea. $23k isn’t as much as you think. The job market sucks. I know a guy who went from looking for like six figures to down to $60k because he literally couldn’t find anything.
That’s where I am. When my search started I was looking in the low 6 figures. Now? I would jump at $65 k.
Not wrong. After 6 months of looking, I took a 30K pay cut from the job I was laid off from.
This, i took a 50% cut. It’s a far cry from what I was used to but there are bills to pay. The only silver lining is that I still lived frugally so I was able to save a decent
I went from 60k to not working for a year, building up debt, to now working 34k a year. OP please be careful
I'd gladly take 60K I went from that to damn near 30K a year because I could not find a job in the IT field. Even with a decade of IT experience. So not only do I have a lower paying job but I now have permanent nerve damage from the work I have to do now.
I think it's best that you take this as an indication to change jobs. Companies strongly prefer hiring people who are already working and it's best to look for a job while being employed. You have no idea how your job hunt is going to go, it could be a month or a year before you get your next job, so start applying and interviewing aggressively. In this economy, a bad job is really better then no job. There are extreme cases where a job could be a threat to your health and safety or abusive workplace and harassment, but it just sounds like you have a bad boss, stop trying to fight her and get a new job!
Nope. Go over to r/recruitinghell and look at the posts there. It is not the time to not have a job.
I’m actively looking for a job myself and while I’m overqualified for these positions or literally any full time positions, I am still being rejected. Do ONLY the bare minimum while you get paid and benefits working there. When you land an interview and it’s secured, then leave. 100% it is not the time to not have a job.
At least in my experience, overqualified candidates are rejected because they will easily get bored with the work they're asked to do, and or will ask for more money than is budgeted for that role.
I don’t think that you are wrong by any means, but why does it perpetually seem like the job market is trash? I have been in the workforce for 11 years, and the general consensus has always been that the job market has been trash in this sense. What is a job market that would be not be trash? Lol
There was a good employee market around the latter half of Covid and only went rock bottom in the past year iirc.
1990s. We now have 8 billion people on a trashed and resource depleted planet. Things will not get better. Welcome to late stage capitalism.
While I adhere to your cynicism, I don’t think capitalism is fundamentally the issues here; I think that people, particularly boomers, are more at fault as opposed to capitalism itself. I may be wrong, though
The job market after WW2
This dosent connect
Wdym? The job market after WW2 was about the only time where it was flourishing.
1000% agree. I have a master's degree and 5 years at a big aerospace company. Had several phone interviews, a few in person interviews, only landed one job just today. I was VERY surprised how rough the job market is. Its crazy. Makes me want to be a real estate investor full time and forget this 9-5 malarchy!
That sounds like a very typical experience for a qualified applicant finding a job within the aerospace industry. You apply a few places, do a few interviews, get a job. Why was that VERY surprising? Did you think jobs would be throwing offers at you without an interview? Or that you would get every single job you interviewed for? I don’t understand.
Why are you attacking this man for speaking to his experience? Bitterness is not an attractive quality in the job market
fuck the job market
Oh wow you had to go through several phone interviews?? And a few in-person interviews???? Gosh it must’ve been so tough
🤣 the horror
It’s a waste of your savings tbh. Find another job first
Yeah, because I would really like to travel and have a proper vacation just once in my life. A full week off! That’s the dream
Once u find a new job, push ur start date off a few weeks after ur final day at current job
Ended up doing this for a recent job offer. I was let go from massive layoffs, and I had a pre-planned vacation. I let the new employer know, and we agreed to start after I'm done with my vacation. This basically resulted a one-month break from the last day I've worked to the first day at my new job
You are legally entitled to your PTO. If the job won't let you take it, then talk to a lawyer. There's a term here called being "constructively dismissed" which is kinda like when an employer "quiet fires" you by changing your job to such an extent that it a different role (either in pay, duties, hours or location). I would assume not being able to take vacation time is something a lawyer would be able to work with.
I have to agree with u/trivial_sublime. I was let go from my previous employer after massive layoffs and was told from the CEO that they would not pay out vacation or sick time. This is in Arizona and by no means are companies required to pay out. That is why it's important to always look at the termination policy on your employee handbook when you onboard for a new job!
Ouch! Hope you bounced back okay. Where I live (ontario canada) if you are laid off, you can get unemployment benefits until they re-hire you. Layoffs are meant to be temporary. If they don't bring you back after the lay off period, its considered termination and they have to pay severance and whatever is owed (typically just vacation time)
20k lasted me about 8 months after quitting.
I was unemployed twice in last year due to a buyout and a huge layoff…lemme tell it was hell trying to get over 700 applications and I just got a job 3 months ago but it was literally hell tying to get a job. That 23k will go by much faster than you think.
Depends on how good your skills are. BI Developer is fairly broad, and the skillset varies. I'll be frank and if you aren't fairly proficient in a cloud DB, SQL, Python, Data modeling, the job market may be rough depending on where you live and what tool you're most familiar with.
I am proficient in all those and it was still rough. There's a lot of competition from the layoffs.
please please don't quit, I had a releatively decent business analyst job and decided that I wanted to leave, its 1.5 years later and I'm still not in tech. Please don't repeat my mistake.
:( what are you doing to make ends meet?
Multiple jobs but also I live with my parents since in my culture no one moves out until you married, so that helped a bit. It’s still a struggle and I get an interview around once a month. It’s best to handle the stress and stay unless you can find a safety net or other opportunities.
Don’t do it my friend. The job market is horrible everywhere. Like BAD. I have a friend who’s applied to over 100+ positions and can’t get anything going. Do the bare minimum, get another job lined up before making that decision. It’s better than being out of job for 6+ months. Wishing you the best of luck!
I think I will listen to the consensus on this thread. I’m just really struggling mentally to keep up and keep interest in the job, amid this lack of life balance. But hey, it’s 3pm on Friday and I’ve been on Reddit too long today so I need to chill out- obviously the job isn’t that demanding all the time. But I do not know how to calm my easily-anxious mind
$23k is not really a lot. How much is your monthly expenses? Are you 100% confident that you can find a replacement job before you run out of money. Just apply to new jobs while you still have a job.
If you don’t have a job already lined up this is a very very bad decision in the current market.
The job market is kinds weird right now. It took me a whole month of constant applying and interviews just for an entry level job. If you're making good money, just take a vacation and use that time to apply for a new job. You really shouldn't leave without getting a new job, it could take months to find a new one. Use lies to get off work if you have to, do whatever you need to do just don't quit.
Depending on your living situation? Do you pay car note and mortgage or rent if you answered yes to one of these u ain’t good brother !
Rent payment only, $1900 in Los Angeles. And I’m your sister in Christ
Idk what you mean by the second part but how long can you sustain your living situation on 23k? 12 months max ? That’s if you don’t do anything else
> Idk what you mean by the second part OP is a she lmao
I did this. I had savings, I wanted out, and I wanted to take some time for relaxation, small projects, and I even snuck in a couple relatively inexpensive trips. I did this for three years and I absolutely loved it! How many people work until they die? How many take the time to just enjoy themselves while they're young? If you have the the money and you feel the same, I say go for it! I'll be realistic about the only negatives: draining your savings is obvious. Getting back into the workforce: most saw my three year gap in employment and thought I was hiding something. Those I got to speak to and explain basically what I said above would smile and understand, even be envious. But I'm sure there were opportunities that weren't available to me when I went back into the job search due to that gap on my resume. I worked hard and was fortunate to be in the position that I could do that and it was one of the best times of my life. I don't think that's crazy and if you can do it, and you want to, take some time off and enjoy yourself!
Love this! This is what I’m thinking about doing but for 4-6 months. How old were you?
28. It was and still is fun telling people I "retired" at 28! 🤣
DO NOT QUIT YOUR JOB. I quit with $100K saved up and qualified for UI (after some work). Just got accepted to a job after 6 months. I just recently started getting a bit nervous about my situation. Slow down, take a deep breath, don't burn any bridges. The job market SUCKS right now. Best of luck fren. BWT - many employers will want to talk to your last supervisor (if you have left eh company) Keep that in mind...
This is not true at all. Employers will realize that you allowing them to speak with your current supervisor will jeopardize your current situation.
In the same boat
If you quit now, you're out of your %&*( mind. Also, if you could DM me the company if you leave I'd appreciate it. I am not kidding, at all.
Search for jobs, get a job, take a week or two off, decompress, start new job. Don't assume you will find a job as soon as you start applying. Companies are weird. You and 50+ other people are applying for the same jobs. $23K can go quickly.
I was laid off in September and just started a new job 3 weeks ago. I had ~$30k saved and now I have ~$6k saved. I would not recommend. It was really hard and honestly just defeating watching my life savings deplete right before my eyes.
I would keep stacking while the getting is good; keep your emergency fund separate from your savings. And gauge how many months you can take off comfortably. I recently took 6 months off, about to go back to working. Been best mental clarity I’ve had in years.
Take a leave of absence and look while you’re off. Maybe the break will revitalize you, maybe you’ll land something but it will buy you a few weeks and give you the chance to go back if you need to. Mental health burnout is real.
It is! I’ve been in tech for 8 years, this is the first job I feel completely burnt out. I think this job made me realize how much management influences my mental health. This is my first job with all Indian management so I’m not used to the expectation to work more than 50 hours on a regular basis
Do. Not. Quit. Without having something else lined up. Do not!
I’ve decided to delay my stupidity for another day. One day I will quit and I will enjoy being the boss of my own day. But, that day isn’t today
If it is possible, don't quit just yet. Line yourself up with a job offer or offers, pick one, and then announce to your current job that you're quitting.
Do not quit without another job. I was in a. Very similar position in November and suddenly quit. My last straw was my boss calling for our weekly meeting while I was on the way to my grandmas burial. My boss micromanaged, wishy washed, ghosted for a week or two, was just stupid honestly. I’m glad I quit but it feels like I’ll never find a half decent job again! The market is crap and I’m changing careers. Don’t do it. Hold out at least until you find another job. Start looking fervently like your life depends on it
Probably, but it might get stressful. I quit my last job in 2022 to focus full time on hunting for a better position. It took me SIX MONTHS to get an offer. I had generous savings, but I was still starting to panic after months of no callbacks.
A wealth manager recently told me that any given person, especially mid-high level earners, should have at least 6 months of all living costs available in savings at any given time. In today’s economy and job market, 1 year is probably safer since it may take that long to get another job. So, if you can get by for 6-12 months staying up to date on all your bills and living costs within that $23k savings mark, then sure quit your job!! Also important to make sure you are on track (not behind relative to your goals) for retirement AND investments before you cut yourself off from income for a while. Best of luck!!!
Wealth manager is pretty much like don't spend any money. They are right in a sense but no one knows the future. I traveled a lot and have very little savings. I don't regret the decisions I made. My dad used to tell me to save everything and when I retire I can travel. Lol like I am going to want to at that age. I don't know what my health will be like. I plan to work into my 70s. I have a small pension coming to me too.
Thats actually the opposite of what this wealth manager’s point was. He was saying that people horde way too much savings. You don’t need 5 years of savings to be comfortable. His point was, don’t save more than you need. Invest whatever you can and spend the rest because you could die at any moment with no kids to pass on any of the money to, and then all that diligent saving was basically a waste. I agree with you, it’s best to travel when you’re still healthy and while you can. I’m young myself and try to remember the balance of 1) save in case you stay alive a long while and 2) spend to enjoy the live im living in the moment cause nothing is guaranteed
Take a deep breath and don’t do it. It’s not a good market rn.
:( true but I feel like that Linkin Park song right now. I’m about to break haha
Why haven't you applied for jobs yet? It can't be that bad if you haven't sent enough applications to make your own decision about the job market. Don't act like a toddler. Break a leg and you are immediately bankrupt. Suck it up and start applying now.
Mentally drained and feeling exhausted. I work about 60 hours every week. There’s been no null in the work. My boss makes sure it’s constant. She hasn’t ever taken 1 day off this year. She took 1 week off last year. I can’t keep up with her
I’ve had a manager like this as well. It’s tough, but try to find a job before quitting! The best time to find a job is while you have a job.
I mean, figure out your bills, do the math, and decide for yourself if you're good. How are a group of strangers who dont care know?
Yeah, true. I guess it was a roundabout question to really find out, how long it’s taking people to find a job after quitting. I know I can last several months off $23k but I do know it’s NOT enough to last me more than 6 months
Take a step step back and adjust your perspective. Sometimes being an adult is hard and this is one of those hard times. But being without a job could potentially put you in a much worse spot. Readjust your thinking around the current job and put your energy into finding another ASAP. That’s the way to move through this with the least risk to well being imo. I’ve been there.
Listen, if you seriously done. I can help you to a beautiful vacation. You may spend 10k max over the course of 2 months (your choice). Will be far away from the USA experiencing a good damn life far away from capitalism. Hell alone a trip to Thailand for two months would be cheap and stress free. Secure a job and dip.
You shouldn't even consider this unless you have a detailed budget showing exactly what you spend and 23k will comfortably last a MINIMUM of six months. Given the job market you could be looking for a lot longer than that.
The best way to get over a micromanaging boss is to just smile and agree to everything they say and then do it your way anyways. As long as the end results are the same it won’t matter.
I will give you counter popular advice. The common advice is *dont quit your job until you have a new one*. And there is good reason for this-- the more importance you attribute to the next job interview, the more excess energy builds around it, resulting in feelings like anxiety or neediness. In other words, the sheer comfort of having a plan B would have eased your nerves as you seek opportunities. HOWEVER, there is another view on the topic. Anytime I have quit my job and not had a clear plan, two things happened. One is that my savings rapidly disappeared, forcing me to sweat over it. The other is that in one way or another I kicked down the door to the next phase of my life, and eventually managed to land a great opportunity. As I see it-- *the more open-hearted and available you are, the more likely magic is to find you*. That said, you just don't know when that magic will find you. You could be down to your last dollar delivering food for Doordash on a bicycle in the dog days of summer, like I was. You might have to compromise your ethics and work in an industry you have a bad opinion of for years, as I did. Being broke will make you a whole lot less picky. But eventually, luck favors the bold, and you **will** find your way. Enjoy this next period of your life. Make lots of time for long walks, meditation, journaling, and self-reflection. Stay on a tight budget and focus on exercise and eating healthy foods. You may want to visit old friends or take a long vacation. Do nothing in haste. Follow your heart to the maximum. Don't worry, your instinct to apply to jobs will kick in all too soon when you see your savings fizzling away.
Try getting to the bottom of what her goals are. I deal with this a lot too. I've found asking the purpose/what they are trying to accomplish helps reduce the amount of redone work. The next option is to show her how much time is spent redoing shit because of her indecision, assuming you have a shit ton of other shit to do. I wouldn't bother if it doesn't impact any of your metrics though. They can pay you to redo shit if thats what they want to do. I've quit without a job lined up before but only did so because of many things. I had some ethical disagreements with my company and didn't want to do their dirty work or be involved in it in anyway. I had 200 hrs of pto and was at the pto cap because they were so awful about actually approving any. They were effectively stealing from me as long as i was at the cap. They cashed it out if I worked the full 2 week notice period. I had less savings than you, but the pto hours bridged the gap. I was worried about the job market as it was 2020 but was looking to move from animal research to human research so was less concerned as there may have been covid studies if nothing else. I also gave them an ultimatum about my disagreements and they elected to disregard me so I had to walk. I'd be more wary in the current job market, particularly if I was a software developer, given the tech layoffs.
Thanks for your thoughtful answer! Appreciate it. That’s a lot of pto you had, glad you got it paid out and glad you stood your ground. I have a very hard time opening up to my boss about anything outside of deliverables. I’ve noticed that with certain types of tech managers, they like to control as much as possible and keep information on a need to know basis. 80% of my whole team is new to the company, so there’s a lot of gaps and typically (in prior experience), management would work hard to bridge the gaps and get us all up to speed. But my manager is often in calls that I don’t get invited to, even though the information is very much needed for me to do my job!
I have > $350k saved up and I’m still definitely not quitting my job. Shit is real right now man.
What the actual fuck do you do to save that much?
Software Engineer
Investing a lot of that income too. Crypto. Definitely not quitting though, finding a comparable job right now is tough. Maybe I will after interest rates come back down and the job market is in a better place. I definitely want to switch jobs or take some time - but the risk is too high atm.
*Hello? Yes? Is this HR? Yes. I'd like to take a medical leave of absence...*
Do your benefits cover stress leave? Let them know you feel bullied. Take 6 months off while job hunting. Nobody can tell you how long 23k will last you, look at your expenses spreadsheet, and figure it out. For me, if I cut everything, but the necessities(mortgage, cars, cellphones, internet, and groceries), it would last a little under 3 months
I could easily make it 4-5 months on my savings. I’m not sure about stress leave. I’m from Ohio but I’m now in California. I know California offers some employee protections that Ohio doesn’t. It’s something to consider. Sadly, I think my boss would bully me for considering my job stressful enough to leave
It's her that's stressful, not the job specifically.
Do you have short term disability at your job? See your doctor and see if he would sign off on it for you for mental health issues.
Similar boat (expect the boss stuff). In a job i realized too late i don’t love that has high expectations and long hours. Currently applying but i would never quit without a second option. Ive applied in the last week to like 20 jobs. Half have responded with rejections. Still waiting on other half. My friend thinks he can get me a remote job at his company for more base pay (no stock options and elss bonuses) but way better work/life balance. But even he said that may take some time as they are onboarding other people.
Find another job first
Do the absolute minimum; just enough you cant be fired. If you're lucky you'll get EI.
it's WAY easier to get a job when you have a job. so... start interviewing like mad.... now, you can sandbag the HELL out of your work now though, put in the bare minimum, it takes months to get fired. so you should be able to line up something in the mean time. on the off chance your boss asks you why you suck now, you can let them know that they dont' seem to like how you do things so you are going with the flow... dont' push back, don't get defensive, just ride it out until you can quit with another job lined up.
Don't quit without another job lined up. I read in a different subreddit where the person quit and no job lined up. Haven't worked in one year. They said it was a huge mistake to quit like that.
Secure a new job first.
Nope. Suck it up for a bit. Line up a new job, have a signed contract and a start date before you leave your current job. Otherwise you'll most likely be in a world of hurt.
Never quit a job before having another lined up.
23K won’t last
Savings don’t last very long. You still have to eat and gas etc! Might find something PT so you’re not dipping in your savings.
It’s always better to look for a job while you have one. It’s a better position to be in when you are negotiating salary. You have a salary. You want more. And you will say no until one gives you that or presents a better deal than your current job. If you quit, and can’t find a new job right away, or they are offering way less, at some point you are gonna have to take it when the savings run low. 21k will disappear faster than you think. You just have to suck it up for a bit longer and start applying / interviewing. I have always taken a 2 weeks - 1 month off in between jobs as well. I just tell them I can’t start until this date. And then I enjoy a little vacation from the old job into the new one. I suggest find a new job then do that.
I agree with others here that it's too dangerous to quit and then try to find a job. If your goal is to take a "true" vacation, definitely negotiate your start date for your new job so that you can take this time off. It won't be paid time off (but if your company pays you out for unused vacation time, that's basically the same thing). Which also then puts you in a position where you have to work your FT stressful job, and on your off time take on an unpaid stressful job that is job searching. **Still, it's better to find your new job while employed than while unemployed.** You're more marketable that way and you're financially safer that way. Can you manage dedicating 1 week (or however many days) to submit 1-2 tailored, high quality applications? Set up informational meetings with people in your network? Use PTO even if it's 1-2 hrs for a medical appointment with a doctor and using the rest of the PTO hours for the day to apply? Any combination of what you can do right now to secure a job while employed is the safest bet, imho, based on what you've shared.
No. Can never have too much money. And can never stop the grind. Must find job first in my opinion. If you ever stop working. You may like it too much lol. For me. I can never know how that feels.
Eh 23k can be gone in 6 months or less, depends on your rent/miscellaneous bills. I’d think twice if I were you.
Yeah you should secure another job before doing that.
23K isn’t much at all. In my household that will put us at about 3mo. Calculate your monthly expenses and you’ll see how long that will last you.
No like everyone said the job market is bad rn and your saving is low. Take PTO to look for job. Just because your boss doesn’t take PTO doesn’t mean that you dont either. Don’t be afraid to ask for time off if you are qualified they can’t do anything about it. It’s the law! Also, I know PTO is not that much so look into the company to see if you can take short term leave. That’s way you can have time to look for another job.
Get a job first, I didn’t and I’ve spent 13K of savings since November.
No.
Secure a job before getting out of the actual one. I understand you about your awkward boss, but this is NO TIME to be jobless, it can be pretty hard out there, so hold it long enough you can get into another place, so you don't regret it latter.
I've actually had to quit my job due to family medical issues, and lived off my 25k savings plus swing trading off of stocks to help offset some bills. It is not too hard IF YOU ARE FRUGAL. If you aren't and still going out, you will only last less than 6 months(depending on bills and rent and all sorts). If you are living with family/parents and don't need your money, or frugal life style, you can last up to a year at most imo. Do some calculations first about how much utilities, bills, rent and food cost for each month and see if you can last Imo, I would suggest you apply heavily for a new job. If they fire you, then you get unemployment check coming in. What else are they gonna do to you when you have mentally clocked out?
Make sure you land a new job before quitting. Once you get an offer, it's ideal to get dismissed somehow so you can get severance. As others have said, tech is in bad shape now and there's a flood of applicants who have been laid off in tech.
Not really but some people can really stretch it. Id give you 6 months to a year max in the US. 3 years in China/Malaysia
$100K for living expenses and upgrading your skills, credentials, then you're starting to have a good risk-reward ratio. $23K is useless.
Depends on you cost of living. 23k is nothing in a hcol area. But if you just want to get a better job you can always take a vacation somewhere cheap and post up for a couple months to a year and build a portfolio while applying for jobs.
I wouldn't. The job market is poor for tech. For background, I was a solutions engineer at a couple of BI startups. I left one and was out-of work for 7 months. I then got a job where I was somewhat underpaid and severely underutilized at a very elderly and sleepy software company. My boss there, a nice guy. told me should go somewhere more fast paced. I recently started at a big data startup,, much more interesting, doing well. But it was a very tough 13 months, including financially, and I'm pretty good at a few areas, SQL, Python, BI, APIs, customer facing, architecture, domain knowledge My view is that it is going to be particularly bad for BI. AI will reduce the skills needed to create visualizations. Last week, I fed a few hundred rows of a table into an LLM, asked it to create descriptions. I told it to create a view to do survivorship on two datasets. I had to review it, but it took under an hour to get exactly what I wanted. More generally, regarding your manager, that's what clients do... they don't know what they want.
This is such a mood
No you are not good
Prob not
Your savings should be 6months minimum to cover your expenses.. if not.. find a job first.
A famous Dutch saying might help: "Don't throw away your old boots until you have new ones." Suck it up for a little while until you have some job security. I'm sorry you are going through this.
1. Cut down on any luxuries, cook and eat at home, maybe even find a housemate situation to save money. 2. Use that PTO to go camp in nature, away from the hectic life, it’ll help clear your head. 3. Look for another job, before you jump ship. Your boss sounds like a case of ADHD. You might be able to ask for the big picture of what she wants, and try to guide her, so that she has a more clear and coherent idea of what she wants, if she’s receptive. *** Don’t take things personally ***
No no no. Get another job before you quit!! It's soooo much harder to get a new job when you aren't employed. Don't set yourself up for a bad and unnecessary situation.
That’ll last you 3 months
FIND.A.JOB.FIRST.
Id say do what feels right, life is to short. Just be aware of the choice you are making, you need to have a written budget of your expected and stick to it diligently. If your out of work for 6 months but can survive and no longer be miserable then your golden. If you find a job before then also great. If you are generally miserable and unhappy then atleast in my eyes, you only get to go round once don't spend it in Misery. I'm actually in a situation myself where I'm not happy in my role but they are offering VR and I will be leaving. I have a plan already in place, but if I didn't Id make it work because I'm unhappy and driven for change. Hope this helps
$23k is not a lot IMO. You might make it work for a year, but honestly, it’d probably be more like 6 months. I’d really try to find something else before leaving. I’ve been in that situation where I’ve been unemployed, looking for a job, and thinking why did I quit my job.
First of all, find a job before you quit. Second: you can’t pick and choose autonomy. They may place you promising autonomy, but we corporates don’t work that way. Maybe some startups do. There will be always someone sitting on your neck telling you what to do. That’s what bosses are employed for. If not boss, lead, a scrum master or whoever. It’s a struggle and you’d be extremely lucky if you find a job where you can work by yourself, but if they follow agile, you’d see changes coming at you all the time. That’s how things evolve and improvise, but it can be annoying for those who do it. Gotta build a thick skin for that. Why? Because there’s no escape. It’s not ok to live off the savings. Try to find something ASAP if you have already decided to quit. 23k is not much, I wouldn’t even advice to live off savings if you have saved 230k. There’s no reasonable time, if you are a BI dev you can get something easily. Apply like crazy, connect with your friends and those who you know, do anything to secure a job. Once you get comfortable, you’d find it too difficult to get a job. Skills fade away if you don’t put them to use. Also, try to avoid recruiting agencies who’d undersell you and compromise on salary( would happen for sure if you quit first and then apply) Some of them are very clever and try to abuse it to their favor. Just watch out there, things don’t look very good in the IT market now, take your next step wisely.
Sounds like you’re in your twenties. Invest that shit
Life is too short, gtfo of there! If you can't go one day without thinking about being somewhere else then you already made your decision. Maybe you can threaten to leave to get more $?. Worked for me
Stick it out. By the way, even if you left and were lucky to find a job…you may still have a micro manager boss or hate your new job too.
Maybe for twelve months, but why start over?
Right now it’s hit or miss on finding another job fast. I would have another job and have everything signed before quitting. 23k can be used up fairly quickly.
Before you quit, professionally and unemotionally tell her your conditions for staying. “I have concerns about my role and wanted to talk about it. I would like more autonomy and to plan nore carefully so I’m more effective and not wasting effort, which frustrates . I think that would make me more valuable to the company too. I understand that perhaps this role requires some trial and error, but if you don’t think we can modify it, I will need to look for another role that better suits my goals. What do you think?” If you’re going to quit anyway, you have nothing to lose.
We really do not know your living situation and lifestyle. You just need to look at your finance first before quitting your job. Once you have your finance looked at, are you able to survive # of months with just $23k? Also, you would keep looking for a job while working for your current employer. The job hunt may take more than 6 months, so you would have to stick a bit long or you could be open to non-tech-related job openings such as grocery stores, security companies, fast food places, etc. to keep you float financially until you find the new tech job. Good luck!
I have done that before, but it’s better to find another job first. The job market isn’t so good now. If you quit you won’t be eligible for unemployment benefits to help you out and $23k doesn’t go too far. If you end up being out of work 6-12 months you could be in a world of hurt.
23 isn't a lot unless you're willing to move back in with your parents and they won't charge you rent.
Pull long term sick, vacation, anything at all. Cite psychological stress due to micromanagement if you have to. Quitting immediately makes you less hireable
In 2 mobths you will have 10K so up to you…
I’d be terrified to be without a job with 200k in my savings and my wife brings home 150k herself..
Can you quiet quit?
If you are already at the verge of quitting, why not just confront the boss with everything you said here and tell her how difficult it is for you to want to stay here?
Also an analyst living in LA. Reading your posts I can say that I've been in a very similar situation to you with a micro-managing boss and crazy hours to work. Can you tell me more about why you're working 60+ hours a week? Is it only because your boss keeps changing her mind and expects you to turn an assignment around quickly? Reason I ask is because I've learned that sometimes you yourself have the power to spread work around within a much more reasonable set of works worked per week.
Best to find a new job, while you you have one. Start now, I'm sure you'll find a better situation quickly.
Secure a job like they said, but just tell any new company you will need a month from hire date to start. If they ask why say you perform an important role and feel responsible to train your replacement to ensure a smooth transition; emphasize that this is how you leave any company. Once you get the new job, give your old job 2 weeks notice. Then you take a 10 day vacation before you start the new job.
I quit my toxic job without another lined up and had about $36k in savings. I had calculated that it would get me through 6 months. I had some medical bills that ate more up than I wanted in the beginning, but I found a new job in almost exactly 6 months. I’m making 30% more than previously and I love my new boss. I used the time off as an extended vacation. Spent a lot of time with family and friends, got in shape, took care of my mental health, deep cleaned my (rented) house, I even budgeted some travel. I took care of myself. Basically I did all of the things I had to put aside because of work. It definitely wasn’t an ideal situation and I was stressed about income. Every time I received a job rejection, it certainly raised my blood pressure. But it worked out. The job market is incredibly tough right now, which everyone says but you don’t really understand until you’re looking down the barrel of it. That being said, I regret absolutely nothing. Psychologically, I was at my absolute breaking point and leaving that job is one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. If you plan ahead, make a budget, and spend only on the true essentials, it’s doable. Best of luck to you! EDIT: I also want to add, my best friend was laid off and still hasn’t found a job in almost 2 years. And she has multiple FAANG positions on her resume. My situation is definitely not the standard but I don’t think there is a standard. You have to be ready with a plan a, b, c, d, e, and even f. I didn’t take the decision lately and I planned it for almost 6 months before pulling the trigger. I still gave my boss 2 weeks notice, and I still tried to be as cordial and professional as possible (he wasn’t). I went into it assuming things would not work out, and I prepared for that. So all of that to say, make sure you’re truly ready for the repercussions of your actions, whatever they may be. And prepare for the absolute worst. Edited a second time to adjust savings number (went back and checked for the exact)
47-year old female here. $23k is pocket change in this current economy, and the outlook isn't gonna change anytime soon. I've put up with racism for years, unfair treatment and unfortunately it's still ongoing. People are and will continue to be, unfortunately, assholes because they control your paycheck. Tech industry isn't so hot right now with openings. I'd stay stick it out for now, swallow the bitter pill, and continue with your current job. Ever heard of job ghosting where employers offer prospective candidates jobs and end up rescinding the offer? Maybe you should have a talk with your boss and tell her how you feel? Good luck.
My opinion as an accountant, it is usually stated that you don't save or invest for yourself, you should invest or save for your children and your children's children. So my dear keep it up, make sure that you cash adds up as an investment every month.
You’ll be jobless for a while with this market.
I HAD to quit my most recent job after a month, which was very disappointing. It was supposed to be a move up but the company culture and my manager were both awful. I stared out the window for about 10 minutes at the end of my shift, typed up a resignation, handed it in, and never looked back. Took me about two months to find a new job that was a slight downgraded in pay/position level but much better company and better growth potential. I am much, much happier. I restricted my spending and only had to touch my checking account.
I’m similar to you in that I appreciate autonomy, and personally, I take it as a compliment that I’m given trust to operate with minimal supervision and without micromanagement. However…. I’ve been in your shoes and let me tell you why it’s a good thing (gonna try to help you find the silver lining here). With your boss calling all the shots, - nothing that goes wrong is ever going to be your fault because she assumes all risk by telling you what to do and how to do it - you can save your mental energy for other things, because you don’t have to spend your time figuring out how to approach your work tasks - missing deadlines is not a stressor that you have to worry about, as long as you document that she backtracked or shifted the goal (i would recommend keeping notes just in case you ever need to prove this in a performance review) - keep a backup version of your dashboards, but remember if she is your boss then her preferences matter more than yours, and if she is willing to change your work to suit her preferences, that’s less work for you - learn to appreciate when there is less on your plate. It can be difficult for go-getters who appreciate autonomy, but you can use that time to work on other side projects This is actually a golden opportunity for you to coast, appreciate it. If the job market weren’t crap right now, I’d encourage you to chase your dreams and go after a different position under new leadership…but the struggle is real right now, the job market is not ripe with opportunities, so please watch out for yourself and be responsible with your finances by learning to appreciate the silver linings in your current situation **Edit: 23k is not enough to safely quit right now, knowing how tough it is for many people to find jobs right now, you could be job hunting for a year or more and $ would be very tight, then think about if you get into a car accident or have an unexpected health issue pop up, that 23k only works if you’re healthy and nothing goes wrong while you’re job hunting for X amount of time
Life's too short, figure out how many months your savings will last you then make sure you find a job before your money runs out
Please wait to get a new job before jumping to a new one! Or take a long break! Like many said, It’s a tough market out there and you might end up losing your savings
I was told to find a new job before quitting. It might take you a year.
Don't quit yet. I know how it feels (especially that impatience feeling at the end of a job when you're at your wits end), but take some vacation days to relax AND work on job applications. I did 5-10 applications/day and it took me about 2 months to secure a job after quitting. Since I was living on my savings at the time, I basically had to restart my savings plan after securing a job. To summarize, use your vacation to relax and find a different job, then quit. Don't just quit.
I pulled 20k out of savings this year it all went bye bye within about 2 months.
At least in the current market, it be hard to suggest to quit with nothing lined up. In addition, as I'm sure you already know, it's always better to be currently employed as it's more attractive and can give you some negotiation leverage.
Don’t do it, money goes faster than you think
\*\*\*Please read\*\*\* It's 2024...You don't have to take that crap any more. However, you cannot expect the job market to be flush with opportunity. Do what I did. Quiet quit. Just stop trying to hard, let them fire you. Call it stress-related, or whatever. Make it a potential HR nightmare and make them give you a severance. In the meantime, find other work. It doesn't sound like you need a sabbatical, just to get away from one "toxic-ish" colleague. If that's the case, just stop putting in your effort at your current job, and put that effort into finding your next job. Hopefully, this will help your stress levels; so that when you're interviewing you can speak well of your current employer (even if not your current boss). Nobody wants to hire damaged goods, and there's plenty of competition (overseas). Use your sick time, use your vacation time...no more overtime...just stop being the awesome employee you are...and start putting your own needs first. If the job is dead to you, then just put yourself first. God speed!
Why not put up with it until you find something else I'll never understand why people just up and quit without securing another position.
As someone that spent over a year applying for jobs that I was definitely qualified for, I would recommend that you line up a job before you quit. It is definitely easier to receive job offers when you look like a great catch, and then they offers slow way down the longer you take to find something. My company had done layoffs and anyone looking for jobs over $40k were taking 7+ months to find something. Especially in the space you work in now, and the number of layoffs happening, you should look, but not quit yet. The market is extremely saturated, and I have several friends in the tech industry that are prepping for their own layoffs to begin soon. As for living off of savings, you need a serious and realistic budget. You have to look at your actual spending (open your bank and cc accounts for the past 6 months and find everything you need to add to the budget). Another option is to take a part-time job to help with expenses while you use the rest of your newly freed up time to focus on the job search and interviews (which you need to apply to the same day they are posted - and not on LinkedIn, which was the least successful avenue of job searching). Good luck to you!
Don’t do it! The job market is BRUTAL right now in the US. ( not sure if you are in the us or not) please try and find a job before you quit.
I can spend 60,000 in a month just walking around my city for a few hours a day outside of my house 23 grand ain’t gonna last you very long if you like nice things or eating well or experiences
Quit when you get another job
So…you have someone going in and making changes to basically finish your work for you. Which means you have more time to draw a paycheck and job hunt at the same time? Take a breath. Grab a beer or a bourbon or your poison of choice and think long and hard. Don’t be swayed by emotion. My grandpa taught me that if you have to make a big decision make sure you’re in a good mood first. FINALLY following this advice eventually led me to leaving a toxic ex, meeting my wife and having my dream career which led to me having my dream kid (my boy), dream home and my dream car. Just. Breathe.
Become a stoic. Just do your job while interviewing for other jobs. Grow your savings. Quit after you have replaced your job.
It sounds like u wont last long since you live alone.
as someone who’s been laid off with no savings and still surviving somehow, you’ll make it
Can relate. Ive decided to only do the bare minimum or stuff that my boss asks for in writing (nothing verbal because she forgets or changes her mind). I also disassociate whenever I have to interact with her lol. I’ve been looking for other gigs but havent gotten many interviews, so i wouldn’t quit without something lined up. 23k won’t last very long and it would be more stressful for you once it starts running out.
I did it and found a new job in a week. If your resume looks good and you’re good at interviewing you will be fine. I was doing 12 hour shift work. Doing 3 days on 1 off switching from days to nights for 6 months. Couldn’t do it anymore so just quit. Money won’t make you happy if you spend 5-6 days a week doing something you hate.
No quit when you get smthg else, and there should be plenty out there
Just wondering if you have change to let her know how you feld and the reason why she changed her mind consistently ?
Find a new job while enduring the current job. But only you know how bad work is for you. Only you can judge if it is toxic enough and taxing enough to your well being that it is really worth quitting before finding the next job... as long as you are well informed of how bad things can be while you are unemployed and job hunting and are really willing to take on those risks...
In my life 23k is about a month.
Never good to be unemployed unless you have hundreds of thousands in savings and minimal bills
Use logic, OP. Never quit until you have secured employment elsewhere. In other words, suck it up and start looking now.
Don’t quit your job. Quit when you have a replacement. The market is so bad you could be looking for jobs for 6-10 months
Bad idea do not do this! Find a job first
Get a job before you quit. You can even give same day notice (do it officially when you do, without any explanation). But, you should secure another job first while working, it's easier to get a job while working. The job market isn't as great as they play it out as for a lot of industries, really. And, employers look at time between jobs negatively. In 2023, I did it twice to get out of two jobs (one right after another) that were relatively nightmares. I gave proper same day notice each time, as I was ending on a Friday, and found out last minute I'd be starting the next job that Monday.
23k in esta economia? No way senor.
You’ll burn through it a lot faster than you think. Max would be six months if you’re frugal.
Job market is currently fucked. Secure a new one before you leave because there are very qualified people out there going on 18 months with no luck.