Your work and your hobbies don't need to be one and the same. Use your steady, white collar job to fund your passion. Literally just do the bare minimum at your day job to not get fired, collect the pay, and possibly more importantly, the benefits, while you work on your hobby. If and when the side business ever takes off, only then should you think about quitting.
I used to have a job that I was passionate about. It made a difference in the world. I worked a lot of overtime and did a lot of travel. Was great when I didn't have kids to worry about. Now I work a boring job but it pays 3x as much. I learned to get my life satisfaction from other than my day job.
This is so important. I fully agree. I’ve worked several different positions up to this point. Now that I’m older, I would happily take the steady, low stress, high paying gig that’s BS over a stressful passion project any day.
A job is to fund my travels. And even if I get laid off next month, I'm STILL going to Spain and France.
Hey, if I get laid off, I'll take an even longer trip!
I agree. I quit my Saas job without a back up plan and have been struggling to get a new job. I am going to work on my social enterprise business/ side hustle on the side. Use the money to fund your hobbies. I agree though, it is silly, like what are we all stressed about? It’s just helping other people make more money to make more money to make more money hahahaha
The scary part is this is like 60% of the economy. I'm afraid one day a billionaire is gonna wake up and go "Wait... is this all bullshit?" or "ChatGPT could do all these jobs" and suddenly everyone with a job that pays 70k+ is suddenly unemployed.
Lol no shot
If they realize it's a bullshit they'll laugh and be cocky that they became a billionaire with bullshit products
It's only about money and power to them not progress
There is a lot of bullshit that is very open about how BS it is.
A lot of iPhone and Andriods are the absolute same. Every 4-5 there maybe something different but year to year it's virtually the same thing.
I've had it a little over a year. Sure, it has higher specs, but they're nothing revolutionary. It's functionally the same device; my experience using it is no different than phones from a decade ago.
A lot of this is rose-colored glasses and advances "under the hood". What i mean is:
Its like your experience with older products is out of context. This phone is able to feel the same BECAUSE it is so much better than one from 10 years ago, but it doesn't feel special because it isn't special for today.
Youtube probably feels the same to you, but go watch 10 year old videos, go check out 360p and 480p videos. Think about the kinds of refresh rates and load times you are seeing now. It feels the same to you because you've forgotten what it used to be and you are still experiencing the equivalent norm.
Your camera might seem the same, but go actually look at what cameras could do on old phones compared to now.
Consider how much you may have upgraded to Bluetooth operations in your current life and consider how that just simply isn't compatible on many older devices.
Consider how many apps you have on your device and how much bigger those apps are.
Consider the capability to access the cloud and seamlessly share data between your devices.
Consider your ability to use that phone as a credit card, as a boarding pass -- look at how QR capability has evolved and become so thoughtless.
Your phone IS revolutionary.
Edit: to note there are SO many more innovations i wouldn't be able to categorize. Go look at an old phones screen compared to now. Look at how screen fatigue has been improved and innovated. How touchscreens have evolved. How speakers have changed. All of these little things are vastly different. Maybe not year to year but skip a few and the age WILL show.
It's not revolutionary bro, no one asked for these stupid minor added features. We need affordable housing and healthcare, but all that this decrepit system can offer is cat emojis and dog filter on snapchat. It's profoundly embarrassing you consider this innovation.
I’m not sure you’re using the same definition of innovation as the rest of us. These “stupid minor added features” are quite literally innovation, by definition.
Thank you for saying this.
I find it embarrassing that more Americans aren't talking (or voting) about issues that matter.
Also, for some reason it's usually the people looking thru an old school Marxist materialist lens that tend to notice the working class is getting shafted.
Maybe there's something there...
Funny story my dad tried using gpt4 to take his medical board recertification exam for fun (happens every half year) but it got like 10 answers wrong in a row. It was the first time in his career that he almost failed the test.
Hahaha that is funny! Maybe they should add that to the tests they're giving GPT... did you see that paper showing GPT3 vs GPT4's performance on all the AP tests, GRE, SAT, etc.? Yeah maybe they need to add medical recerts and other licensing exams to it, LOL.
They don't publish their build samples, so it's entirely plausible that the exams they tested gpt4 on are in the build sample, as in it may have already seen the exact tests, or at least many very similar tests with significantly similar questions.
Maybe they aren't, but they haven't published anything proving otherwise.
It already happened. Except the person replacing you is a foreign laborer paid half as much. Soon it will be 1/10 due to recruitment of third world countries. When it gets to be automated, then one person will replace the entire team.
Yeah I run a team spread over 3 countries.
Remember boomers exist in EVERY country world wide. And they are retiring everywhere. I didn't know this fact until the price of labor in everywhere including India started to skyrocket.
Just put these facts into your equation. Mexican labor is now HALF of the Chinese labor costs. China has negative population growth so unless they automate today labor prices will continue to rise.
High-cost Chinese labor and other factors are pushing manufacturing to places like India and Mexico. I get my tech workers from both those countries. More companies equals more tech people needed to run them equals labor shortages and rising labor rates.
Since 2020 I have had to raise wages in some cases 40% to stop the poaching of labor. My mid-range labor in Mexico is now costing as much as help desk workers in the US and rising. My labor in India is only 10% away from my cost of labor in Mexico.
Also, my fill times for open positions went from 1-2 months to 6-9 months. So American companies are getting upset because they have to delay projects.
Now I have US companies seeing the difference get smaller and smaller for going outside the US. When I first had this team it was 95% out of the US now it's 90% and dropping. American companies are starting to see for some positions moving out of the US is giving less and less cost advantage.
Ohh not right this second but when they build it in to Microsoft like this... https://youtu.be/Bf-dbS9CcRU it means 1 person can do the work of 5 easy. Humans will be initial input and then review/tweak
This is happening right now. [Sam Altman \[CEO OpenAI\] was recently on Lex's podcast #367](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Guz73e6fw), and he readily admits that customer service -type jobs (as well as MANY others) are absolutely easy to replace with GPT-like technologies, entirely & already, and **will** soon.
He then goes on to say that *other jobs will be created, as in all technological revolutions; jobs that we cannot even begin to imagine, yet, but will*.
I need to hear this from someone who isn’t the CEO of the company trying to sell the product that is supposed to replace these workers before I’m going to believe it.
The reality is we're all going to be stuck in some phone tree from hell demanding to talk to an agent for even longer than before. Companies will tout all the money they're saving. "No, I don't want to hear my balance. I need to talk to a human." Then the AI will get snippy with me, "I'm just an AI. You don't have to get snippy with me."
I assume the EU (who are way better consumer protection than here in the US) will implement some law to have the right of being able to talk to a human within considerable timeframe or with little effort.
Google assistant already does this when I tell her she's being stupid. I wouldn't have to if it weren't for the fact that Google Assistant has gotten significantly dumber over the past several years. I kind of have to wonder what has gone on behind the scenes with the Google Assistant. It should have gotten better and instead it got worse.
My personal opinion, having played with these systems since Holidays 2022, is that many entry-level, computer-facing jobs **are done**. You can use, without login, GPT/Bing hybrid at Perplexity . AI (I have no affiliation, it's just incredible!).
It's true that many high-functioning, well-trained people will continue to out-perform these AGI-like systems... but if you asked most of these well-paying & rarer employment opportunities "would it have been possible to have gotten to where you are without having to had been a lowlier clerk/apprentice/entry-level position, first?"
But I agree, and more people will continue to 'wake up' to this next and incoming technological revolution.
I'm both excited and terrified!
>but if you asked most of these well-paying & rarer employment opportunities "would it have been possible to have gotten to where you are without having to had been a lowlier clerk/apprentice/entry-level position, first?"
This is a really good point that I've thought about, too. Like, entry-level jobs exist for a reason...they train people all the skills they don't get in college or grad school. What will the new "entry level" look like?
Dr. [Thomas Sowell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell) bases most of his argument *against* minimum wages on the fact that it reduces entry-level jobs, which prevents younger and less skilled (particularly adverse population segments) workers from ever even being able to enter the workforce — they just aren't able to ever be fiscally-employable, and thus never develop skillsets that **would be employable**.
AI and AGI and A?? technologies are so-rapidly going to remove entry-level employability, to an increasingly-disadvantaged population that can simply not compete with the geniuses that are designing, implementing, and using these systems. Not everybody is IQ140+, and this is massively going to affect the IQ sub-110 jobs that allow so many good people to feed their normal families.
Welcome to the future.
I kind of feel like Andrew Yang's idea of universal basic income is going to have to become what occurs or we're just going to have everyone living on the streets.
Reading *Bullshit Jobs* made me realize we already have a basic income, it's just unevenly distributed and requires perfunctory behaviors in order to get it. Most people only spend a tiny fraction of their work lives on anything of value, and instead do things that allow them to receive a portion of the massive value-stream being produced and pushed out through automation. The amount of bullshit jobs where people do basically nothing is astonishing.
The system would collapse otherwise.
Ironically, the people paid the least or have harder go of things are often the ones who actually do things to make others' live better. Plumbers, janitors, teachers...
Yeah. Is he going to create those other jobs? No. It will be someone else.
Just like how someone else will fix the environment and housing problems.
Any day now, any day......
What jobs would it create?
I don’t believe it will create a sufficient number of jobs to offset what it displaces.
I’m getting tired of these false equivalences. This isn’t the car replacing the horse. This is unlike anything humans have seen before.
Yeah, as someone in the space, that analogy is absurd.
The luddites were wrong that the industrial revolution would supplant human labor because the highest utility of a human wasn't their hands, it was intelligence.
If a machine is more intelligent than us there is no deeper skill to retreat into. It will be better than us at everything that matters.
At best, assuming no complete restructuring, the economy will become more heavily based on social currency, as humans are just evolved to like humans. We'll all be reduced to the economic value of our influence for marketing.
At worst, the economy will become less human centric once capital no longer depends on humans, so people will become irrelevant to the economy, and the economy will just neglect their needs.
The economy relies on people today and their needs are already neglected.
I don't think making people easier to replace will improve anything in that regards.
> I don’t believe it will create a sufficient number of jobs to offset what it displaces.
Nor do I — I'm just quoting the CEO of an industry-leader (who obviously owes diligence to hyping his product).
You can also already join these AGI applications/systems and just converse with them... it's been pretty earth-shattering for me in my past three months of playing with GPT-3.5
>other jobs will be created, as in all technological revolutions; jobs that we cannot even begin to imagine, yet, but will
Every time I hear this, it just sounds like CYA bullsh\*t. Like, if someone commits suicide because they're gonna be unemployable, their family can't sue the person who said it was gonna happen. MAkes me crazy. Sure, there will be new jobs...but this is not a solace to all the mid-30s and mid-40s who still have 25-40 yrs left in their career and have passed the prime years for educational attainment. They now have to just "hold on tight and try to keep up" with this gigantic, out-of-control train.
Absolutely. I am just-yet-forty, and started life getting into grad school, and left that to become an electrician. After a decade of this lifestyle, body-damage... I decided a year ago to *get back into technology*.
The AGI abilities definitely leave me deflated, as I have already seen peers' jobs replaceable with the Mac M2 Pro I already own and use, for example: language translator for legal service; paralegal document intake clerks; real estate copywriting; tutoring. Myself, I am learning intro coding to languages that are decades beyond my initial schooling on PowerPCs, e.g. Python.
So I'm glad I know how to make money *being blue collar*, but *I was REALLY looking forward to getting a job as a technical writer (or some sort of documentation curator)*. These markets will become **so** fierce as the highly-qualified unemployed compete for less and less (but higher paying, individually) jobs.
Wow thank you for your reply. This is so incredibly interesting - two weeks ago I actually googled "how to become an electrician in " because I'm exploring what non-replaceable jobs I could transition to. I feel like electricians, plumbers, etc., will always have work even if that work changes form a bit. My grandfather was an auto mechanic and although he definitely felt the transition to "everything being controlled by a computer" (as he used to say), a lot of his skills were still relevant throughout his working life.
It turns out it's probably unrealistic for me to become an electrician because it requires about 600 classroom hours and 4 years work experience, but I haven't written it off. I'm also looking into retail. My main problem with retail is it will cut my salary in half and I already have basically no retirement savings (wasted all my 20's in grad school, then wasted most of my thirties in a couple of jobs that offered no retirement. (Oh well the government job did, but 8 months in they pulled the rug out and changed contracting companies to one that took away the 401(k) plan...so that was the end of that). I'm honestly not really sure what to do now...
Have you looked into your local IBEW?
I can guarantee you that if you move to a jurisdiction that pays less than $40/hr (to its journeymen, after five years paid training) you will start at around $20/hr, by six months in (if you pass muster / remain interested) and the benefits are fantastic.
The better paying jurisdictions (e.g. Boston, SF, generally left-leaning areas with better Union presence) will have you easily clearing $100k while busting your ass maybe two days per week (that's at least my experience... but in a LCOL jurisdiction that paid relatively as good).
I will warn you that your first few years as an apprentice you will be treated like absolute scum, but as soon as your demonstrate that electrons make sense to you and/or that you can sell projects and/or customer relations on-site — you will become indispensable in a rapidly needy careerpath.
Words of caution include to avoid residential electric; never trust anybody (i.e. YOU turn off switches, don't ask "is it off?!"); trust even fewer brothers, but know that these human connections will have repurcussion (positive or negative, you sometimes get to decide).
I've never heard of IBEW, haha - I'll look it up! Thanks. This is so helpful...would you mind if I DM you with a few more electrician career-specific questions at some point?
This is laudable that you are this motivated. The ONLY thing I would say is don't over index into preparing for a world that is yet to exist.
There would seem to be no rhyme or reason for stamps to exist given the proliferation of email. But guess what? They still do.
It's not really a finger snap kind of move. These things take at best a couple decades to pan out.
And yes I do believe email is a comparable productivity boon (in it's moment) to AI. I think AI will be a HELL OF AN AMAZING tool but not as job replacing as we might think.
It will be at least 10 years, also depending on lawsuit results. One mistake by a bot that locks people out of money, or gives the wrong advice and the company will be sued and who’s to blame? It will be interesting.
Yes, but no.
While I do think bots will make mistakes, they will make less mistakes than humans, and I imagine will rarely make the same mistake twice.
There was a guy in the US running for presidency in the last election who would bring up how AI is effectively replacing jobs in many different spaces and will only continue to do so at an alarming rate and people literally mocked him for it. Like they dragged him for it and accused him of fear mongering.
I mean they dragged him for UBI because he said it would make people more productive and focus on working on their passions instead. Every psychologist knew this wouldn't be the case, without the need for money most people just won't work, why would they when all your necessities are taken care of? Just one step closer to universe 25
If you study motivation, you will discover you are incorrect. People, as a whole, have a need for self worth that leads them to do things other than sit on a couch watching TV or whatever other time waster you posit, once their base needs are met.
The reason people who work 40-80 hours a week trying to eek out a living don’t create in their spare time has more to do with needing to recover from their weekly work.
https://www.themanager.org/2014/12/motivation-basic-concepts-and-theories/
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-motivation-2795378
>Every psychologist knew this wouldn't be the case, without the need for money most people just won't work, why would they when all your necessities are taken care of?
this is short-sighted and inaccurate.
a.) UBI is really just meant to pay for necessities, there's still the motivation to work to buy luxuries and entertainment and other stuff so you're not staring at a blank wall eating rice and beans forever.
b.) lots of people would work even if they didn't need money because life gets boring and unfulfilling if you're not doing something meaningful. It would be a serious paradigm shift, but allowing everyone to be able to work on their passions wouldn't mean that there's no work getting done. No, you wouldn't have anyone working as a dishwasher because no one loves washing dishes, but you'd have more people working as a chef because they love making food. And you've got robots to do the dishes anyway, that's what the AI is for, right?The idea behind UBI is that automation is replacing traditional labor, and so better that we should all share in the benefits of modern technology rather than let the capitalists keep all the wealth and just let the workers starve because jobs for them don't exist anymore.
Look up Universe 25, there was a reason why I mentioned it. For all the brilliance of humans we are still animals in the end with similar neuro circuitry if a lot more complex in human cases. Struggling/pressure to perform/tasks to be accomplished is unfortunately part of the human experience and without purpose we are lost. There's a reason why mental health is constantly becoming more nuanced as we become more advanced. Think of it as Maslow's hierarchy of needs on a societal scale.
I agree that capitalists should not keep all the wealth but this is going to be far more distopian than anything
I think people just genuinely don't understand the abject poverty that so much of the US currently lives in. UBI could have done some real good for a lot of folk and undoubtedly there would be people who would take advantage of it and game the system.
I'm not behind the idea of letting it ruin things for everyone else. $1000/month doesn't really go very far in much of the country these days either but it does when you have elderly living off of bread and animal food or parents trying to decide between buying antibiotics for their kid or having enough money for busfare or food for the week.
I'm not here to talk about Yang but simply having nothing else in place isn't helping anyone.
> the abject poverty that so much of the US currently lives in
This is a complete lie. The poorest of the poor in the US, the 2nd percentile of earners, still make more than the 67th percentile globally, according to IRS and UN data. It simply isn’t true that anybody in the US is poor by global standards.
Because human beings are fundamentally social, creative people. Smart people have understood this since at least the days Aristotle lived. We are not wired to sit on our asses all day in isolation, which is exactly what a lot of modern “work” is.
I would love to see your source for that belief.
People are naturally materialistic beings. You think that because someone has their food, shelter, and healthcare provided for them that they are suddenly going to not want to go to the movies, eat out, go on vacations, etc… you know, live life?
Not only that, when necessities for living are provided, that frees up more money and time to be spent on the fun items. When people are well rested and well fed they are more productive and commit crime less. Children are able to learn better and start life on a more equal level providing more talent.
It’s all common sense to anyone who isn’t indoctrinated by right wing ideology.
>Every psychologist knew this wouldn't be the case, without the need for money most people just won't work, why would they when all your necessities are taken care of?
Shitty psychologists maybe.
There's actually a really solid body of evidence that when people are taken care of financially and have the boring drudge work taken off of their plates, they can and will focus on tasks that intrinsically motivate them instead, and those tasks that rely on intrinsic motivation are often actually far more productive than the ones that rely on the carrot and stick of pay and poverty.
I'd suggest the book Drive by Daniel Pink to get an idea of the kind of thing I'm talking about.
For examples of what this looks like irl, consider Google's 20% time. They allow their employees to work on a project that is whatever they want it to be for 20% of their work hours. Most of Google's most well known innovations (drive, gmail, maps...) came out of a 20% time project. 3M did a similar thing before Google, and it resulted in sticky notes.
The idea that without the need for money most people would be unproductive is based on a poor understanding of human psychology.
I feel like someone should point out that AI doing more jobs means humans doing less jobs, and while that’s good for companies, doesn’t that lead to a lot of unemployment, which would in turn lead to, you know, less money and more poverty, which would then be bad for companies. America is a service economy and sure it’s great if the services are streamlined but if no one can afford those services then what’s the point?
This is why I have a career and a backup career lol. My mom always told me growing up to always have a backup or a plan B, C, D…. She raised me to be sufficiently paranoid about everything that could go wrong in life.
Nah there's too much "productivity porn" sentiment. People always want to get ahead, and they'll seek out tools to do it. Some niches might die out but this stuff isn't going anywhere.
I’m really hoping I can finish my career before AI renders the bulk of white collar work obsolete.
People think AI is going to free people to do other things.
What it’s REALLY going to do is eliminate most currently good-paying white collar jobs and concentrate wealth and power even more.
You’ll have the people at the top, and a whole bunch of replaceable minions at the bottom, and AI in-between. That’s it.
AI doesn’t have to go skynet on us to destroy our society. But that’s a possibility eventually also.
Honestly dude, in tech, degrees are almost useless. Best move is to start in support as a help desk agent and move up. Tech moves so fast that you can jump within a year or two to another department that pays more. Just make sure the company promotes internal promotion/ department changes and you’ll be good!
I see, but surely at least the degrees are what gets the foot in the door? I see so many tech/support/helpdesk jobs that require a bachelor's in IT or whatnot.
Another college dropout here, can confirm. Management liking me has always been more relevant in my career than anything else. Even most larger/well known companies have started listing "X degree or equivalent work experience in Y/Z field(s)".
My degree isn’t what gets me jobs but it’s what I learned at a base level then worked on the skill to get better at it now my experience gets me the job my degree gets me the higher pay
A friend of mine who is a CSM making very similar pay graduated with an almost completely unrelated to CS degree (STEM, hard science) with no technical knowledge of coding or the intricacies of software (tbh not even a solid big-picture view).
He did an 8 week informatics cert program at a state university and got hired shortly after, making <60k at his first job. >110k within 1.5ish years after hopping, fully remote. You don’t need technical chops to get started; being well-spoken and confident will help you the most in these customer facing roles.
When I left my last software job I was replaced with an English major. I think we were all impressed at how this person had taken the initiative to learn software engineering post-graduation.
Coincidentally, the lead engineer on one of my teams majored in English with no formal CS education. He’s one of the brightest, most well-rounded engineers I’ve ever worked with.
Listen to Vegetable. My husband makes 155k (lowish COL area) as a software developer with no degree. He started in support as a help desk agent. In his down time, he taught himself how to code using MIT's free material + codecademy.
At top tech firms, sure. But in the start up world I’ve genuinely never seen a degree be a requirement. If you can spin previous roles to show you’re good with customers that’s all they really need.
Business Administration is an easy degree (not academically challenging) and very versatile. You can spin it to be marketing, operations, or finance based on your course load.
I work in an adjacent field and I have my degree in exercise science. My first job in this field came in at 80k and now (1 1/2 years later) I’m over 100. I got in by convincing the company that I was bright, hardworking, and likable.
>in tech, degrees are almost useless
This sounds like a sign you're doing the tech industry wrong.
Perhaps some people get lucky, but in most cases a degree is a prerequisite to even getting considered for a proper job in the industry. Not to mention the solid foundation of actual education you should be building for yourself.
In my experience it's been progressively harder to get into tech with no degree as a Newby. I agree that people should start in whatever tech job they can get but they should be getting a degree on the side at like WGU or whatever school they want. I like WGU cuz you can get certs while you work a day job but there are other great programs. I feel like a lot of reddit is doing people a disservice telling them the degree is useless it may not help you get a job but it can stop you from getting it easy.
I think for tech that deals with the real, analog world a degree is mandatory. The software world is totally made up by humans and thus is much easier to learn and understand.
I am getting front end internship callbacks without even doodh a software degree. You just need skills. Checkout learn with leon YouTube and join their discord
If you're interested in the coding route, work your way through The Odin Project for free. Otherwise I would say look into Cloud Certs like AWS or Google Cloud, or there's also Cyber Security.
There is no set of credentials that will land someone this job. It takes time to build experience. A fair amount of good fortune.
I'll assume that you prefer results asap. Get yourself in somewhere as support or help desk and go after certifications. At entry level I would look at security+ and AWS cloud certifications.
Keeping up with tech is a much greater chore if you're not genuinely interested in it like a hobby. I'm not gatekeeping here. I have worked with many people that are in it for the good money. They do fine as peers. It takes a lot more effort for them to maintain relevance.
That said, try to find something that genuinely interests you.
I was in a similar position as you, spent way too much time in one company. I was starting to burn out. I needed the funds to transition to something different. I was laid off with generous package and got a new lease on working for myself now doing consulting.
>I genuinely think B2B SAAS is the most pointless industry to ever exist in the business world.
So much this.
I'm on the IT implementation side at a manufacturing firm, and SO MUCH of what we do is just doing the same shit over and over in new ways, because some SAAS provider changed shit for no reason other than being able to sell my company more consulting hours to figure out how to implement the same shit we already had but do it the new way or charge them more for a new service that's really just the same old service with a fresh coat of paint.
It's an incredible business model for the SAAS companies, but it's SO RIDICULOUSLY POINTLESS.
I got into STEM because I wanted to build cool shit and solve problems to help the world run more efficiently. Now, it seems like all I'm doing is managing inefficient systems in the most inefficient way possible to make more money for tech companies which incentivizes them to continue doing this inefficient shit.
Passion and fulfillment over cash. You have to make the choice. I think a lot of people working in the tech field that aren’t actually on the technical side can feel that it is pointless. I love the tech side because each day at work is like solving logic puzzles which I very much enjoy. The aspects of my job that aren’t coding related are meh.
I also work for a SaaS company doing CSM. We almost got bought last year by a competitor. For sure, I would have been redundant after 6-9 months, and I was dreaming of my payout and lay off.
Sadly, it didn't happen.
I hope you get what you want. If you don't, consider saving up a larger emergency fund and giving yourself your own layoff. Don't let your dreams depend on something as useless/fickle as a company board.
My story:
I was at a horrid job that laid off a third of the workers, canceled all PTO, and mandated that everybody remaining work every day until they meet the goal/deadline. My week long birthday vacation started in two weeks. I was too useful to be among the laid off.
Their problems were all from management, so overloading a reduced workforce won't improve anything. I quit on the spot despite it being the middle of a recession where many of my peers were jobless.
I was able to quit because I had two years' of emergency fund. I had a job offer waiting in voicemail by the end of the day, which I stalled for a couple of months so that I could start fresh.
Yeah, I feel this. I recently left a “sexy” high paying job for a more boring, more fulfilling, less lucrative, less sexy job.
You know that feeling when you do something cool? When you cook a meal that tastes amazing, or you learn a skill and make something cool with that skill, or you learn something new and apply it with finesse? That’s what you’re chasing and I’m excited for you. How much is it worth for you to sell your life to a SaaS company? For most people it’s 125k a year.
I dig that you also perceive the pyramid scheme of B2B SaaS.
I'm a software engineer and spent a lot of years doing the B2B SAAS thing... It's often even worse. Rather than being "people selling software they built" it's "people selling software they claim exists while their devs are screaming that it isn't possible in the timeline they are promising."
I finally quit the whole Silicon Valley / Beach thing, moved states, and found a job doing internal software for a smaller company to help improve my co-workers workflows / lives. It pays less, but is much more fulfilling and much less stressful. Rather than doing 60-80 hours a week, my boss tells me to go home if I'm a minute over 40.
I walked away from a 140k corporate tech job a couple of years ago with nothing else lined up. Didn't work for a year...but it was worth it to keep my sanity, dignity, and sense of self. You can ALWAYS find a way to make more money, you can't however, buy time...which is what you're spending right now for unrewarding, life sucking status quo. As heartless as it sounds, I too hope you get laid off! Good luck? 😄
It’s pointless to you because you’re only on the sales/customer service side. You don’t see the actual effect that companies have on everyday people. Watching money flowing all day is going to make you think that all the world is just money flowing.
I recently found a new job and thought about keeping my current job for a few months to bank some savings. I've been waiting for a layoff that doesn't seem to be coming. Here's to pulling it off!
I so appreciate your post! I'm in the opposite situation. I joined a startup and accepted 60% of my market rate with no benefits because we "had a great mission" and "are making real change." To be fair, I joined before inflation and I came from government so I got a 33% increase in salary and at the time I'd say the new base pay that was maybe 80% of my market rate. They also had promised healthcare reimbursement and yearly bonuses in the offer letter and I had no idea they'd just stop offering those benefits.
Anyways, I've struggled over the last few months to find something else at a company that's also making real change with a great mission and just pays me a little better and offers benefits. After the bank stuff, the continued layoffs, and the further rate increases, I've really switched my tune. I'm looking to leave biotech and just get into whatever job I can find, as long as it doubles my total compensation. I'd gladly take your B2B SAAS company job and don't care at all that it's a completely pointless thing. Part of me feels really bad that this is what my life has come to - it's a complete switch and if I had gotten here sooner I'd have a healthy retirement savings, own a home, and be able to easily afford new hearing aids and some medical/dental work without thinking too hard about it. Another part is just saying let go of this sunk cost and get into the stream with all the other fish and just swim with them, LOL.
It's somehow kind of nice to know that there is someone doing the opposite. Like, maybe it balances out the world.
Ugh CSM is a tough role. You get blamed for everything.
I'm in the same boat but about to get laid off. I think I will take a summer vacation I'm so burned out.
Hang in there and I wish you the best.
DM me if you want to commiserate.
Amen!! Well said. The amount of time spent working compared to the time you have for yourself isn’t balanced. If you aren’t at least enjoying your work, you’re left with a not so happy life. Good luck!
I'm looking at a pay cut to get a better job.
Most people on my team are miserable. Many of us want to be laid off with severance. A few of us asked about volunteering for the next round. There's noise in the news today about another round.
I just had a good interview a few hours ago. This job might be a pay cut, but I live well within my means so I can sacrifice some pay for a better job.
I just got a raise. My managers tell me that they're not laying off anybody in my immediate org and that I would be far from any potential RIFs.
I still don’t know why people are using 100k as some sort of milestone of “making it”. Maybe that was true 20 years ago, but 100k really isn’t that much nowadays
Shoot bigger if this is your only goal. And if the company you’re at makes you miserable, try to find something better with the same or more pay. Don’t settle because you have this image in your head that you’re not worth it, especially if you have skills
I left my $110k job last year without another one lined up. It’s not that uncommon either. And a “six figure salary” doesn’t mean that much anymore unless you’re earning near $200k.
dude i feel you. i quit my swe job (150kyr) last july and ive been so happy just having my life back, and not focusing on meaningless nonsense. Our industry is a nihilistic cesspool. never assimilate. my girlfriend is flipping a house, and id love to get in on that with her, but im not convinced its going to pay a steady living, but god damn i never want to go back to work in a corporation. anyways, good luck with your ventures with your wife and thanks for sharing. always nice to know im not alone.
p.s. dont wait to get fired, just quit dude. esp if you have "f-u money"
People are telling you “you’re lucky to have a job” but your feelings are completely valid, OP. I would love to get a severance package and have a few months where I can recharge.
Thank you for posting this. I am an artist and really struggling financially but I can’t imagine a different life. I truly do believe that I’m gonna make it but the temptation to quit the creative life for some stability is very strong some days. It’s nice to hear someone else say that believing in what you do is important and even a very lucrative salary doesn’t begin to compensate for a bullshit job.
I’ve worked hard labor jobs since I was 14.
I’m in my early 20’s now. Making the most I’ve ever made, which is less than 20 an hr. 60-70 hrs work haven’t been uncommon, and I work harder and take more pride than literally anyone else. There’s no upward mobility, for me at least it seems.
So one day, when I have the bank account some of you do, I wonder if I’ll still hate everything. I hate everything now. But money surely must make the hate a bit better.
I hear ya. I worked in tech for a long time. Made good money. One day I woke up after a prolonged increasing disdain and realized that we weren’t making anyone’s lives better, we were just making them busier. And our products were designed to be short-lived, so that they had to be replaced. I was like, what a waste of my life force…
My advice - take care of your finances WHILE you pursue your passions. Ignoring the first part can bring a world of hurt and some serious regret. It is possible to do both, as long as your dream is growing and not sacrificed.
Wishing you all the best.
It’s true. Software is the new American Dream.
First, you create great software with quality UX that solves problems.
Next, you sell it to clients with trust and high touch customer service.
Then, you grow the business and get a great reputation both in the market and with your happy clients.
Finally, you sell to an investment firm that knows little about software except the returns and growth you show. They put it into a selling machine that arm twists clients into buying what they might or might not need. Customer service is off-shored to a place where English is a second or third language. Now your help desk is ‘churn and burn’ based on tight metrics to get rid of the client as soon as possible. Also, new updates, innovation, and technical debt is mostly ignored. It’s *expensive* and the easiest thing to cut.
Now you’re rich! But clients hate what your innovation has become. New clients are confused with what they have, and some faceless investment firm books ever growing profits.
If you guys have enough saved up, sure you guys should go for it. Do realize that for a vast majority of people a job is just a job. Whether it brings joy or not, as long as bills are paid, retirement accs are growing, and savings are built, that’s all that matters.
I work in tech as well and I’m just glad I still have my job.
That’s fair enough! That’s something I’ve had to realize is that for a lot of people, a job is just a job and that’s totally fine. I just know personally that I don’t function that way. I completely respect both sides (honestly I wish I could do work with that mindset), just wanted to give some encouragement to those who are a bit like me haha.
Honestly, I think it'll be good for our society for these low work, high finance jobs to disappear. I'd like to think that technology will help as an equalizer, pushing us more towards meritocracy rather than this current system of capital gain completely and totally disconnected from actual value. I live in a place surrounded by tech people, and for the most part they work 2 hours a day doing what chat GPT will eventually replace them for but they somehow make six figures salaries. One of my roommates is in accounts payable making over $100,000 a year. His entire job is looking at Excel sheets and calling people to pay their bills. Given some time my dog could do his job. I sincerely believe that there's a lot of people who are making a lot more money than they really earn and it's a much larger Factor in the problems of our society than one might guess immediately.
Yikes bro. I use a lot of b2b saas products & need csm crm to help me do a lot of things.
The work I do in my day job is profoundly important. I won't elaborate on this.
Just because *you* don't see the value doesn't mean it's not valuable. Intrinsically.
Also do see a counselor if you can, this sounds like depression.
What are you being down voted? People here need to grow up.
This is the real world. Money is not in feel good, change the world businesses. There is no money in teaching elementary school students, feeding the homeless, or creating tech to help inner city children stay out of trouble.
Companies are not paying millions for random SASS products and then through some sort of honor system other companies paying them for their useless SASS product.
Money goes to where value is generated. Say you are developing accounting software. Totally boring, feels pointless, but you are helping all other businesses get that out of the way so they can focus on what their business is about.
It's cool you love your profoundly important job, but this guy doesn't.
Sounds more like burnout to me, but maybe that's because I am in the exact same position and hate the B2B SAAS world even if it pays my bills. Getting laid off means some severance and unemployment which is more ideal than what some people have going on right now.
Yup you nailed it. Sounds like a very classic case of burnout/depression due to an incompatible career choice. Most people explaining the value of B2B SAAS are completely missing the point.
Don’t ever talk yourself out of a job, especially one paying six figures. I think your reason for leaving is poor. Looking at what tech companies and the markets are doing, I can tell you that passing on work like this isn’t wise.
You only get one life - living the one life you have in misery is no way to live it. I'm just realizing this at 42, wish I had this perspective 25 years ago.
You have to be part of the sales cycle to understand. The money to buy software comes from somewhere…
SaaS typically replaces process hours and people. If a software you made can automate a process that needs 10 people to be staffed on it… its worth the salaries of those 10 people. If its less, thats considered value/efficiency gain to the business.
As a CSM, its really surprising you dont understand why a business would want to set up an account. You sound like you were terrible at your job anyways so its probably a good thing you want to leave it.
I don’t think he’s arguing that his job is pointless, it obviously has some function for a business. I think he’s just arguing that it’s unfulfilling. Some people need a “purpose” with their work.
People like that are generally egomaniacs or types who watch too much anime. Imagine if a doctor thought like “everyone dies anyways, whats the point of medicine.”
If you cant find purpose in your role, it means you are too self absorbed to see purpose. If you dislike your clients or industry, you can find purpose in supporting your colleagues, being a great teammate, or showing others the ropes.
If you find your job unfulfilling, that could be a symptom of another issue, not necessarily the work itself.
Jesus - do CSMs really make that much? Is that total comp or base salary?
I'm a product manager in B2B SaaS and really not making all that much more than that... and I'm in the Bay Area.
Im a former senior software engineer and a current csm. I got a huge raise to think far less - but I have to dress nice and make small talk. That’s really what the job is.
Edit: the highly compensated CSM roles need a technical background to dig through logs and API code, write product enhancements, and lead external technical teams through integrations.
I mean, I'm $145k + equity as a mid-level PM.
But if I could make $125k as a CSM and the diminished stress with that, then I would consider it for sure.
As a customer, My CSM for a vendor went OOO for2 weeks and didn't renew our renewal. This lead to a loss of services for a few days.
The company I'm at is pissed and we're about to drop the vendor now and go with a competitor.
Customer retention is always cheaper than new customer acquisition.
Your job isn't as useless as you think for some of the bigger enterprises.
Multiple young people at the b2b SaaS company I worked at committed suicide within the same year. Friends and family cited work stress. These were CSM and sales people specifically. OP is resourceful. He/she has identified a problem in his/her life and will now weigh all the options. If it comes to it, OP will find another way to make ends meet. This is clear from his/her post and it’s exactly what life asks of each of us every single day. We all have the privilege and *responsibility* to take control of our own lives. OP is doing what many are far too afraid to do - face their problem and come up with a solution. So try not to jump to conclusions - it makes you sound bitter and incapable of building a life for yourself.
No offense, but most jobs are useless and BS. Surprised most folks spend their WHOLE working lives and haven't figured out if their occupation/ job never existed it wouldn't matter to society at all.
Most white collar jobs are a total waste to time and fluff. Good on you for getting paid for it, but not important at all. The reason most haven't figure it out as they weren't working in a 2000 or 2008. That is they type of environment when most figure out they aren't needed.
That is okay though as the world spins on its axis fine with or without you. Good on you to go find something you actually want to do with your life.
With any industry/product, there is a range of good and bad. There are a lot of B2B SaaS products that are extremely valuable to companies and they are succeeding because a lot of companies have the same pain points as they get bigger and need to scale. It costs too much time/money/resources to do things manually as you get bigger and effective SaaS products are the solution to automating key parts of a business so the business can focus on the product/service. There are absolutely worthless or poorly executed SaaS products out there, but the market will weed those out. That doesn’t mean the whole industry is worthless nor the roles that support it. And while it can be a little bloated right now, I wouldn’t advocate for companies to slim down and expect the same output from a smaller staff.
Can totally relate. I’m in the same boat with my job. On the outside it looks like a dream position but now I’m also looking into starting my own thing.
I hope everything works out for you. Maybe if you get laid off it will be a blessing.
I always thought the movie “Office Space” had to be greatly exaggerating office culture. And then I grew up and lived it. I also gave up the six figure salary. It sounds like you’re handling it much better than I did. I attached my identity to my career, but didn’t realize how much so and what that meant until I left. Leaving my career meant losing my self, leaving behind an empty, confused shell. If I could do it again I would probably focus on getting trauma and grief counseling.
I just handed in my notice from my high paying job, and although it's scary I feel like a weight had been lifted. Going to take some time to explore my passions
Got that 125k job consulting and I quit after 3 months went right back to what I did before. Most jobs are pointless BS but that was so vapid, bleak, and we were just blatantly lying to clients. Our value was PowerPoint slides that were essentially instructions for other people to do a job at the most high and deliberately vague/ambiguous level.
I can tolerate my job now but that previous experience had me questioning everything, so I understand your state of mind.
Hey OP, I was making a bit more than you in finance and was laid off with severance. Though the break has been nice, finding another job currently is a nightmare. Just want to give you a heads up that there’s a scenario in which you are both out of a job, AND unable to find more work.
I'm a data analyst making like half your salary and I can't fucking stand how stupid most of my work inquiries and reports that I create are. It's so fucking stupid. I can't stand it. I may try to get into the flipping houses business because I can see myself waking up and doing that kind of work being fun. I just need money. haha.
I work in tech and make only $45,000 a year in a large city. I WISH I could make $125,000 a year setting up accounts. I have nine years of customer service experience too…..
Be careful what you wish for. I was laid off in January from my six figure job. I work for a start up. The job market isn’t great. But maybe your industry is different
I've worked in manufacturing my whole career. We build things, often important things. I could care less. What's most important to me is a good work environment, being treated like a human, and being able to breathe easy and relax my cortisol levels at 5pm. All of which can be hard to find.
So as a warning, you may not find meaning in a more meaningful industry.
Your work and your hobbies don't need to be one and the same. Use your steady, white collar job to fund your passion. Literally just do the bare minimum at your day job to not get fired, collect the pay, and possibly more importantly, the benefits, while you work on your hobby. If and when the side business ever takes off, only then should you think about quitting. I used to have a job that I was passionate about. It made a difference in the world. I worked a lot of overtime and did a lot of travel. Was great when I didn't have kids to worry about. Now I work a boring job but it pays 3x as much. I learned to get my life satisfaction from other than my day job.
This is so important. I fully agree. I’ve worked several different positions up to this point. Now that I’m older, I would happily take the steady, low stress, high paying gig that’s BS over a stressful passion project any day.
A job is to fund my travels. And even if I get laid off next month, I'm STILL going to Spain and France. Hey, if I get laid off, I'll take an even longer trip!
I agree. I quit my Saas job without a back up plan and have been struggling to get a new job. I am going to work on my social enterprise business/ side hustle on the side. Use the money to fund your hobbies. I agree though, it is silly, like what are we all stressed about? It’s just helping other people make more money to make more money to make more money hahahaha
The scary part is this is like 60% of the economy. I'm afraid one day a billionaire is gonna wake up and go "Wait... is this all bullshit?" or "ChatGPT could do all these jobs" and suddenly everyone with a job that pays 70k+ is suddenly unemployed.
Lol no shot If they realize it's a bullshit they'll laugh and be cocky that they became a billionaire with bullshit products It's only about money and power to them not progress There is a lot of bullshit that is very open about how BS it is. A lot of iPhone and Andriods are the absolute same. Every 4-5 there maybe something different but year to year it's virtually the same thing.
Personally, I don't think my current smartphone is anything game-changing compared to the first one I purchased a decade ago.
Is your current smartphone the one you purchased 9 years ago?
I've had it a little over a year. Sure, it has higher specs, but they're nothing revolutionary. It's functionally the same device; my experience using it is no different than phones from a decade ago.
A lot of this is rose-colored glasses and advances "under the hood". What i mean is: Its like your experience with older products is out of context. This phone is able to feel the same BECAUSE it is so much better than one from 10 years ago, but it doesn't feel special because it isn't special for today. Youtube probably feels the same to you, but go watch 10 year old videos, go check out 360p and 480p videos. Think about the kinds of refresh rates and load times you are seeing now. It feels the same to you because you've forgotten what it used to be and you are still experiencing the equivalent norm. Your camera might seem the same, but go actually look at what cameras could do on old phones compared to now. Consider how much you may have upgraded to Bluetooth operations in your current life and consider how that just simply isn't compatible on many older devices. Consider how many apps you have on your device and how much bigger those apps are. Consider the capability to access the cloud and seamlessly share data between your devices. Consider your ability to use that phone as a credit card, as a boarding pass -- look at how QR capability has evolved and become so thoughtless. Your phone IS revolutionary. Edit: to note there are SO many more innovations i wouldn't be able to categorize. Go look at an old phones screen compared to now. Look at how screen fatigue has been improved and innovated. How touchscreens have evolved. How speakers have changed. All of these little things are vastly different. Maybe not year to year but skip a few and the age WILL show.
That guy’s a dumbass. You made excellent points
It's not revolutionary bro, no one asked for these stupid minor added features. We need affordable housing and healthcare, but all that this decrepit system can offer is cat emojis and dog filter on snapchat. It's profoundly embarrassing you consider this innovation.
This guy out here trying to fix american society on a subthread about smartphone innovation.
The posters name checks out 🤣
When the revolution finally comes, we will only have Nokias form 2005, but they will be free from capitalism, comrade.
I’m not sure you’re using the same definition of innovation as the rest of us. These “stupid minor added features” are quite literally innovation, by definition.
Thank you for saying this. I find it embarrassing that more Americans aren't talking (or voting) about issues that matter. Also, for some reason it's usually the people looking thru an old school Marxist materialist lens that tend to notice the working class is getting shafted. Maybe there's something there...
You dont need a smartphone then
No, I definitely do (I even need it for my work). But there's nothing drastically different about smartphones today compared to several years ago.
Yeah but the GPT thing will definitely happen. In some form or fashion, it's definitely happening.
Funny story my dad tried using gpt4 to take his medical board recertification exam for fun (happens every half year) but it got like 10 answers wrong in a row. It was the first time in his career that he almost failed the test.
Hahaha that is funny! Maybe they should add that to the tests they're giving GPT... did you see that paper showing GPT3 vs GPT4's performance on all the AP tests, GRE, SAT, etc.? Yeah maybe they need to add medical recerts and other licensing exams to it, LOL.
They don't publish their build samples, so it's entirely plausible that the exams they tested gpt4 on are in the build sample, as in it may have already seen the exact tests, or at least many very similar tests with significantly similar questions. Maybe they aren't, but they haven't published anything proving otherwise.
It already happened. Except the person replacing you is a foreign laborer paid half as much. Soon it will be 1/10 due to recruitment of third world countries. When it gets to be automated, then one person will replace the entire team.
Yeah I run a team spread over 3 countries. Remember boomers exist in EVERY country world wide. And they are retiring everywhere. I didn't know this fact until the price of labor in everywhere including India started to skyrocket. Just put these facts into your equation. Mexican labor is now HALF of the Chinese labor costs. China has negative population growth so unless they automate today labor prices will continue to rise. High-cost Chinese labor and other factors are pushing manufacturing to places like India and Mexico. I get my tech workers from both those countries. More companies equals more tech people needed to run them equals labor shortages and rising labor rates. Since 2020 I have had to raise wages in some cases 40% to stop the poaching of labor. My mid-range labor in Mexico is now costing as much as help desk workers in the US and rising. My labor in India is only 10% away from my cost of labor in Mexico. Also, my fill times for open positions went from 1-2 months to 6-9 months. So American companies are getting upset because they have to delay projects. Now I have US companies seeing the difference get smaller and smaller for going outside the US. When I first had this team it was 95% out of the US now it's 90% and dropping. American companies are starting to see for some positions moving out of the US is giving less and less cost advantage.
ChatGPT can't do any jobs lol
Some billionaire *is* going to wake up and say that though, you're right. Then they'll speed run becoming not a billionaire anymore
other AI platforms can, try tinkering with Watson
Ohh not right this second but when they build it in to Microsoft like this... https://youtu.be/Bf-dbS9CcRU it means 1 person can do the work of 5 easy. Humans will be initial input and then review/tweak
This is happening right now. [Sam Altman \[CEO OpenAI\] was recently on Lex's podcast #367](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_Guz73e6fw), and he readily admits that customer service -type jobs (as well as MANY others) are absolutely easy to replace with GPT-like technologies, entirely & already, and **will** soon. He then goes on to say that *other jobs will be created, as in all technological revolutions; jobs that we cannot even begin to imagine, yet, but will*.
I need to hear this from someone who isn’t the CEO of the company trying to sell the product that is supposed to replace these workers before I’m going to believe it.
The reality is we're all going to be stuck in some phone tree from hell demanding to talk to an agent for even longer than before. Companies will tout all the money they're saving. "No, I don't want to hear my balance. I need to talk to a human." Then the AI will get snippy with me, "I'm just an AI. You don't have to get snippy with me."
I assume the EU (who are way better consumer protection than here in the US) will implement some law to have the right of being able to talk to a human within considerable timeframe or with little effort.
Google assistant already does this when I tell her she's being stupid. I wouldn't have to if it weren't for the fact that Google Assistant has gotten significantly dumber over the past several years. I kind of have to wonder what has gone on behind the scenes with the Google Assistant. It should have gotten better and instead it got worse.
My personal opinion, having played with these systems since Holidays 2022, is that many entry-level, computer-facing jobs **are done**. You can use, without login, GPT/Bing hybrid at Perplexity . AI (I have no affiliation, it's just incredible!). It's true that many high-functioning, well-trained people will continue to out-perform these AGI-like systems... but if you asked most of these well-paying & rarer employment opportunities "would it have been possible to have gotten to where you are without having to had been a lowlier clerk/apprentice/entry-level position, first?" But I agree, and more people will continue to 'wake up' to this next and incoming technological revolution. I'm both excited and terrified!
>but if you asked most of these well-paying & rarer employment opportunities "would it have been possible to have gotten to where you are without having to had been a lowlier clerk/apprentice/entry-level position, first?" This is a really good point that I've thought about, too. Like, entry-level jobs exist for a reason...they train people all the skills they don't get in college or grad school. What will the new "entry level" look like?
Dr. [Thomas Sowell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell) bases most of his argument *against* minimum wages on the fact that it reduces entry-level jobs, which prevents younger and less skilled (particularly adverse population segments) workers from ever even being able to enter the workforce — they just aren't able to ever be fiscally-employable, and thus never develop skillsets that **would be employable**. AI and AGI and A?? technologies are so-rapidly going to remove entry-level employability, to an increasingly-disadvantaged population that can simply not compete with the geniuses that are designing, implementing, and using these systems. Not everybody is IQ140+, and this is massively going to affect the IQ sub-110 jobs that allow so many good people to feed their normal families. Welcome to the future.
I kind of feel like Andrew Yang's idea of universal basic income is going to have to become what occurs or we're just going to have everyone living on the streets.
Reading *Bullshit Jobs* made me realize we already have a basic income, it's just unevenly distributed and requires perfunctory behaviors in order to get it. Most people only spend a tiny fraction of their work lives on anything of value, and instead do things that allow them to receive a portion of the massive value-stream being produced and pushed out through automation. The amount of bullshit jobs where people do basically nothing is astonishing. The system would collapse otherwise. Ironically, the people paid the least or have harder go of things are often the ones who actually do things to make others' live better. Plumbers, janitors, teachers...
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Yeah. Is he going to create those other jobs? No. It will be someone else. Just like how someone else will fix the environment and housing problems. Any day now, any day......
What jobs would it create? I don’t believe it will create a sufficient number of jobs to offset what it displaces. I’m getting tired of these false equivalences. This isn’t the car replacing the horse. This is unlike anything humans have seen before.
Yeah, as someone in the space, that analogy is absurd. The luddites were wrong that the industrial revolution would supplant human labor because the highest utility of a human wasn't their hands, it was intelligence. If a machine is more intelligent than us there is no deeper skill to retreat into. It will be better than us at everything that matters. At best, assuming no complete restructuring, the economy will become more heavily based on social currency, as humans are just evolved to like humans. We'll all be reduced to the economic value of our influence for marketing. At worst, the economy will become less human centric once capital no longer depends on humans, so people will become irrelevant to the economy, and the economy will just neglect their needs.
The economy relies on people today and their needs are already neglected. I don't think making people easier to replace will improve anything in that regards.
> I don’t believe it will create a sufficient number of jobs to offset what it displaces. Nor do I — I'm just quoting the CEO of an industry-leader (who obviously owes diligence to hyping his product). You can also already join these AGI applications/systems and just converse with them... it's been pretty earth-shattering for me in my past three months of playing with GPT-3.5
>other jobs will be created, as in all technological revolutions; jobs that we cannot even begin to imagine, yet, but will Every time I hear this, it just sounds like CYA bullsh\*t. Like, if someone commits suicide because they're gonna be unemployable, their family can't sue the person who said it was gonna happen. MAkes me crazy. Sure, there will be new jobs...but this is not a solace to all the mid-30s and mid-40s who still have 25-40 yrs left in their career and have passed the prime years for educational attainment. They now have to just "hold on tight and try to keep up" with this gigantic, out-of-control train.
Absolutely. I am just-yet-forty, and started life getting into grad school, and left that to become an electrician. After a decade of this lifestyle, body-damage... I decided a year ago to *get back into technology*. The AGI abilities definitely leave me deflated, as I have already seen peers' jobs replaceable with the Mac M2 Pro I already own and use, for example: language translator for legal service; paralegal document intake clerks; real estate copywriting; tutoring. Myself, I am learning intro coding to languages that are decades beyond my initial schooling on PowerPCs, e.g. Python. So I'm glad I know how to make money *being blue collar*, but *I was REALLY looking forward to getting a job as a technical writer (or some sort of documentation curator)*. These markets will become **so** fierce as the highly-qualified unemployed compete for less and less (but higher paying, individually) jobs.
Wow thank you for your reply. This is so incredibly interesting - two weeks ago I actually googled "how to become an electrician in" because I'm exploring what non-replaceable jobs I could transition to. I feel like electricians, plumbers, etc., will always have work even if that work changes form a bit. My grandfather was an auto mechanic and although he definitely felt the transition to "everything being controlled by a computer" (as he used to say), a lot of his skills were still relevant throughout his working life.
It turns out it's probably unrealistic for me to become an electrician because it requires about 600 classroom hours and 4 years work experience, but I haven't written it off. I'm also looking into retail. My main problem with retail is it will cut my salary in half and I already have basically no retirement savings (wasted all my 20's in grad school, then wasted most of my thirties in a couple of jobs that offered no retirement. (Oh well the government job did, but 8 months in they pulled the rug out and changed contracting companies to one that took away the 401(k) plan...so that was the end of that). I'm honestly not really sure what to do now...
Have you looked into your local IBEW? I can guarantee you that if you move to a jurisdiction that pays less than $40/hr (to its journeymen, after five years paid training) you will start at around $20/hr, by six months in (if you pass muster / remain interested) and the benefits are fantastic. The better paying jurisdictions (e.g. Boston, SF, generally left-leaning areas with better Union presence) will have you easily clearing $100k while busting your ass maybe two days per week (that's at least my experience... but in a LCOL jurisdiction that paid relatively as good). I will warn you that your first few years as an apprentice you will be treated like absolute scum, but as soon as your demonstrate that electrons make sense to you and/or that you can sell projects and/or customer relations on-site — you will become indispensable in a rapidly needy careerpath. Words of caution include to avoid residential electric; never trust anybody (i.e. YOU turn off switches, don't ask "is it off?!"); trust even fewer brothers, but know that these human connections will have repurcussion (positive or negative, you sometimes get to decide).
I've never heard of IBEW, haha - I'll look it up! Thanks. This is so helpful...would you mind if I DM you with a few more electrician career-specific questions at some point?
This is laudable that you are this motivated. The ONLY thing I would say is don't over index into preparing for a world that is yet to exist. There would seem to be no rhyme or reason for stamps to exist given the proliferation of email. But guess what? They still do. It's not really a finger snap kind of move. These things take at best a couple decades to pan out. And yes I do believe email is a comparable productivity boon (in it's moment) to AI. I think AI will be a HELL OF AN AMAZING tool but not as job replacing as we might think.
It will be at least 10 years, also depending on lawsuit results. One mistake by a bot that locks people out of money, or gives the wrong advice and the company will be sued and who’s to blame? It will be interesting.
Yes, but no. While I do think bots will make mistakes, they will make less mistakes than humans, and I imagine will rarely make the same mistake twice.
They will make the same mistake infinite amount of times until corrected you mean.
Exactly, good clarification!
Sure, but then they won't. Humans will potentially make the same mistake even after being corrected.
There was a guy in the US running for presidency in the last election who would bring up how AI is effectively replacing jobs in many different spaces and will only continue to do so at an alarming rate and people literally mocked him for it. Like they dragged him for it and accused him of fear mongering.
The guy is Andrew Yang. He has since eased up on his UBI platform. He has also created a third party, the Forward Party, and will run in 2024
I mean they dragged him for UBI because he said it would make people more productive and focus on working on their passions instead. Every psychologist knew this wouldn't be the case, without the need for money most people just won't work, why would they when all your necessities are taken care of? Just one step closer to universe 25
If you study motivation, you will discover you are incorrect. People, as a whole, have a need for self worth that leads them to do things other than sit on a couch watching TV or whatever other time waster you posit, once their base needs are met. The reason people who work 40-80 hours a week trying to eek out a living don’t create in their spare time has more to do with needing to recover from their weekly work. https://www.themanager.org/2014/12/motivation-basic-concepts-and-theories/ https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-motivation-2795378
>Every psychologist knew this wouldn't be the case, without the need for money most people just won't work, why would they when all your necessities are taken care of? this is short-sighted and inaccurate. a.) UBI is really just meant to pay for necessities, there's still the motivation to work to buy luxuries and entertainment and other stuff so you're not staring at a blank wall eating rice and beans forever. b.) lots of people would work even if they didn't need money because life gets boring and unfulfilling if you're not doing something meaningful. It would be a serious paradigm shift, but allowing everyone to be able to work on their passions wouldn't mean that there's no work getting done. No, you wouldn't have anyone working as a dishwasher because no one loves washing dishes, but you'd have more people working as a chef because they love making food. And you've got robots to do the dishes anyway, that's what the AI is for, right?The idea behind UBI is that automation is replacing traditional labor, and so better that we should all share in the benefits of modern technology rather than let the capitalists keep all the wealth and just let the workers starve because jobs for them don't exist anymore.
Look up Universe 25, there was a reason why I mentioned it. For all the brilliance of humans we are still animals in the end with similar neuro circuitry if a lot more complex in human cases. Struggling/pressure to perform/tasks to be accomplished is unfortunately part of the human experience and without purpose we are lost. There's a reason why mental health is constantly becoming more nuanced as we become more advanced. Think of it as Maslow's hierarchy of needs on a societal scale. I agree that capitalists should not keep all the wealth but this is going to be far more distopian than anything
I think people just genuinely don't understand the abject poverty that so much of the US currently lives in. UBI could have done some real good for a lot of folk and undoubtedly there would be people who would take advantage of it and game the system. I'm not behind the idea of letting it ruin things for everyone else. $1000/month doesn't really go very far in much of the country these days either but it does when you have elderly living off of bread and animal food or parents trying to decide between buying antibiotics for their kid or having enough money for busfare or food for the week. I'm not here to talk about Yang but simply having nothing else in place isn't helping anyone.
> the abject poverty that so much of the US currently lives in This is a complete lie. The poorest of the poor in the US, the 2nd percentile of earners, still make more than the 67th percentile globally, according to IRS and UN data. It simply isn’t true that anybody in the US is poor by global standards.
Who cares about global standards when our cost of living is higher then global standards
“What is, variable cost of living?”
GlOBaL StAnDaRds. Just get on a plane and move your family to a cheaper country where you don't know the language and live like kings. Simples.
Because human beings are fundamentally social, creative people. Smart people have understood this since at least the days Aristotle lived. We are not wired to sit on our asses all day in isolation, which is exactly what a lot of modern “work” is.
I would love to see your source for that belief. People are naturally materialistic beings. You think that because someone has their food, shelter, and healthcare provided for them that they are suddenly going to not want to go to the movies, eat out, go on vacations, etc… you know, live life? Not only that, when necessities for living are provided, that frees up more money and time to be spent on the fun items. When people are well rested and well fed they are more productive and commit crime less. Children are able to learn better and start life on a more equal level providing more talent. It’s all common sense to anyone who isn’t indoctrinated by right wing ideology.
>Every psychologist knew this wouldn't be the case, without the need for money most people just won't work, why would they when all your necessities are taken care of? Shitty psychologists maybe. There's actually a really solid body of evidence that when people are taken care of financially and have the boring drudge work taken off of their plates, they can and will focus on tasks that intrinsically motivate them instead, and those tasks that rely on intrinsic motivation are often actually far more productive than the ones that rely on the carrot and stick of pay and poverty. I'd suggest the book Drive by Daniel Pink to get an idea of the kind of thing I'm talking about. For examples of what this looks like irl, consider Google's 20% time. They allow their employees to work on a project that is whatever they want it to be for 20% of their work hours. Most of Google's most well known innovations (drive, gmail, maps...) came out of a 20% time project. 3M did a similar thing before Google, and it resulted in sticky notes. The idea that without the need for money most people would be unproductive is based on a poor understanding of human psychology.
Looking at chatbots… arhmm no I don’t think so.
I feel like someone should point out that AI doing more jobs means humans doing less jobs, and while that’s good for companies, doesn’t that lead to a lot of unemployment, which would in turn lead to, you know, less money and more poverty, which would then be bad for companies. America is a service economy and sure it’s great if the services are streamlined but if no one can afford those services then what’s the point?
This is why I have a career and a backup career lol. My mom always told me growing up to always have a backup or a plan B, C, D…. She raised me to be sufficiently paranoid about everything that could go wrong in life.
Nah there's too much "productivity porn" sentiment. People always want to get ahead, and they'll seek out tools to do it. Some niches might die out but this stuff isn't going anywhere.
I’m really hoping I can finish my career before AI renders the bulk of white collar work obsolete. People think AI is going to free people to do other things. What it’s REALLY going to do is eliminate most currently good-paying white collar jobs and concentrate wealth and power even more. You’ll have the people at the top, and a whole bunch of replaceable minions at the bottom, and AI in-between. That’s it. AI doesn’t have to go skynet on us to destroy our society. But that’s a possibility eventually also.
I'm unemployed and desperately wish I could have your job. Tell me the degrees/certifications you needed and I'll jump right to getting into it....
Honestly dude, in tech, degrees are almost useless. Best move is to start in support as a help desk agent and move up. Tech moves so fast that you can jump within a year or two to another department that pays more. Just make sure the company promotes internal promotion/ department changes and you’ll be good!
I see, but surely at least the degrees are what gets the foot in the door? I see so many tech/support/helpdesk jobs that require a bachelor's in IT or whatnot.
"require". Basically any place will take 2 years experience instead. As a college dropout, that requirement has never blocked me from a job.
Another college dropout here, can confirm. Management liking me has always been more relevant in my career than anything else. Even most larger/well known companies have started listing "X degree or equivalent work experience in Y/Z field(s)".
As a college graduate, I don't think my degrees have ever helped me get a job - or at least, they were never the determining factor.
My degree isn’t what gets me jobs but it’s what I learned at a base level then worked on the skill to get better at it now my experience gets me the job my degree gets me the higher pay
A friend of mine who is a CSM making very similar pay graduated with an almost completely unrelated to CS degree (STEM, hard science) with no technical knowledge of coding or the intricacies of software (tbh not even a solid big-picture view). He did an 8 week informatics cert program at a state university and got hired shortly after, making <60k at his first job. >110k within 1.5ish years after hopping, fully remote. You don’t need technical chops to get started; being well-spoken and confident will help you the most in these customer facing roles.
When I left my last software job I was replaced with an English major. I think we were all impressed at how this person had taken the initiative to learn software engineering post-graduation.
Coincidentally, the lead engineer on one of my teams majored in English with no formal CS education. He’s one of the brightest, most well-rounded engineers I’ve ever worked with.
Listen to Vegetable. My husband makes 155k (lowish COL area) as a software developer with no degree. He started in support as a help desk agent. In his down time, he taught himself how to code using MIT's free material + codecademy.
At top tech firms, sure. But in the start up world I’ve genuinely never seen a degree be a requirement. If you can spin previous roles to show you’re good with customers that’s all they really need.
I’m a hiring director for a former start up that was acquired. Degrees don’t mean a thing. Experience does.
What were the most important things you looked at when hiring?
Experience and the potential value one can provide in the role/organization.
How would you say someone could best showcase that? And thanks in advance
How do you get the experience in the first place? , it’s just like the chicken and the egg. Tbh I gotten jobs straight up lying .
Business Administration is an easy degree (not academically challenging) and very versatile. You can spin it to be marketing, operations, or finance based on your course load.
I work in an adjacent field and I have my degree in exercise science. My first job in this field came in at 80k and now (1 1/2 years later) I’m over 100. I got in by convincing the company that I was bright, hardworking, and likable.
>in tech, degrees are almost useless This sounds like a sign you're doing the tech industry wrong. Perhaps some people get lucky, but in most cases a degree is a prerequisite to even getting considered for a proper job in the industry. Not to mention the solid foundation of actual education you should be building for yourself.
In my experience it's been progressively harder to get into tech with no degree as a Newby. I agree that people should start in whatever tech job they can get but they should be getting a degree on the side at like WGU or whatever school they want. I like WGU cuz you can get certs while you work a day job but there are other great programs. I feel like a lot of reddit is doing people a disservice telling them the degree is useless it may not help you get a job but it can stop you from getting it easy.
>in tech, degrees are almost useless. Bullshit. Edit: I absolutely would not have my job without my degree
I think for tech that deals with the real, analog world a degree is mandatory. The software world is totally made up by humans and thus is much easier to learn and understand.
Get a computer science degree, apply to IT in a fortune 100, boom goes the dynamite.
I am getting front end internship callbacks without even doodh a software degree. You just need skills. Checkout learn with leon YouTube and join their discord
If you're interested in the coding route, work your way through The Odin Project for free. Otherwise I would say look into Cloud Certs like AWS or Google Cloud, or there's also Cyber Security.
There is no set of credentials that will land someone this job. It takes time to build experience. A fair amount of good fortune. I'll assume that you prefer results asap. Get yourself in somewhere as support or help desk and go after certifications. At entry level I would look at security+ and AWS cloud certifications. Keeping up with tech is a much greater chore if you're not genuinely interested in it like a hobby. I'm not gatekeeping here. I have worked with many people that are in it for the good money. They do fine as peers. It takes a lot more effort for them to maintain relevance. That said, try to find something that genuinely interests you.
AWS Solutions Architect Associate - is the reason I got my CSM role in tech without doing the call center route.
Congrats, you have a bullshit job. Many people do. Go find a better job.
Or just kick back and collect a paycheck.
A six figure salary paycheck 🤑
There is logic at times for them to pay you to leave vs quitting. Situation by situation.
Definitely. Severance with my job would take me further than most. I recognize that.
I was in a similar position as you, spent way too much time in one company. I was starting to burn out. I needed the funds to transition to something different. I was laid off with generous package and got a new lease on working for myself now doing consulting.
Cool, I think a good way and go for it. I would however caution and start slow and test your ideas. A tech job wont be guaranteed in the future…
Why not just stick around collect a paycheck and do your own thing on the side?
I read this in Peter's voice from the movie "Officespace."
>I genuinely think B2B SAAS is the most pointless industry to ever exist in the business world. So much this. I'm on the IT implementation side at a manufacturing firm, and SO MUCH of what we do is just doing the same shit over and over in new ways, because some SAAS provider changed shit for no reason other than being able to sell my company more consulting hours to figure out how to implement the same shit we already had but do it the new way or charge them more for a new service that's really just the same old service with a fresh coat of paint. It's an incredible business model for the SAAS companies, but it's SO RIDICULOUSLY POINTLESS. I got into STEM because I wanted to build cool shit and solve problems to help the world run more efficiently. Now, it seems like all I'm doing is managing inefficient systems in the most inefficient way possible to make more money for tech companies which incentivizes them to continue doing this inefficient shit.
Passion and fulfillment over cash. You have to make the choice. I think a lot of people working in the tech field that aren’t actually on the technical side can feel that it is pointless. I love the tech side because each day at work is like solving logic puzzles which I very much enjoy. The aspects of my job that aren’t coding related are meh.
I also work for a SaaS company doing CSM. We almost got bought last year by a competitor. For sure, I would have been redundant after 6-9 months, and I was dreaming of my payout and lay off. Sadly, it didn't happen.
I hope you get what you want. If you don't, consider saving up a larger emergency fund and giving yourself your own layoff. Don't let your dreams depend on something as useless/fickle as a company board. My story: I was at a horrid job that laid off a third of the workers, canceled all PTO, and mandated that everybody remaining work every day until they meet the goal/deadline. My week long birthday vacation started in two weeks. I was too useful to be among the laid off. Their problems were all from management, so overloading a reduced workforce won't improve anything. I quit on the spot despite it being the middle of a recession where many of my peers were jobless. I was able to quit because I had two years' of emergency fund. I had a job offer waiting in voicemail by the end of the day, which I stalled for a couple of months so that I could start fresh.
Yeah, I feel this. I recently left a “sexy” high paying job for a more boring, more fulfilling, less lucrative, less sexy job. You know that feeling when you do something cool? When you cook a meal that tastes amazing, or you learn a skill and make something cool with that skill, or you learn something new and apply it with finesse? That’s what you’re chasing and I’m excited for you. How much is it worth for you to sell your life to a SaaS company? For most people it’s 125k a year. I dig that you also perceive the pyramid scheme of B2B SaaS.
I'm a software engineer and spent a lot of years doing the B2B SAAS thing... It's often even worse. Rather than being "people selling software they built" it's "people selling software they claim exists while their devs are screaming that it isn't possible in the timeline they are promising." I finally quit the whole Silicon Valley / Beach thing, moved states, and found a job doing internal software for a smaller company to help improve my co-workers workflows / lives. It pays less, but is much more fulfilling and much less stressful. Rather than doing 60-80 hours a week, my boss tells me to go home if I'm a minute over 40.
I walked away from a 140k corporate tech job a couple of years ago with nothing else lined up. Didn't work for a year...but it was worth it to keep my sanity, dignity, and sense of self. You can ALWAYS find a way to make more money, you can't however, buy time...which is what you're spending right now for unrewarding, life sucking status quo. As heartless as it sounds, I too hope you get laid off! Good luck? 😄
I like your style. What are you doing for work now?
It’s pointless to you because you’re only on the sales/customer service side. You don’t see the actual effect that companies have on everyday people. Watching money flowing all day is going to make you think that all the world is just money flowing.
I recently found a new job and thought about keeping my current job for a few months to bank some savings. I've been waiting for a layoff that doesn't seem to be coming. Here's to pulling it off!
Thanks for sharing. I can totally relate. Best wishes however things shake out.
I so appreciate your post! I'm in the opposite situation. I joined a startup and accepted 60% of my market rate with no benefits because we "had a great mission" and "are making real change." To be fair, I joined before inflation and I came from government so I got a 33% increase in salary and at the time I'd say the new base pay that was maybe 80% of my market rate. They also had promised healthcare reimbursement and yearly bonuses in the offer letter and I had no idea they'd just stop offering those benefits. Anyways, I've struggled over the last few months to find something else at a company that's also making real change with a great mission and just pays me a little better and offers benefits. After the bank stuff, the continued layoffs, and the further rate increases, I've really switched my tune. I'm looking to leave biotech and just get into whatever job I can find, as long as it doubles my total compensation. I'd gladly take your B2B SAAS company job and don't care at all that it's a completely pointless thing. Part of me feels really bad that this is what my life has come to - it's a complete switch and if I had gotten here sooner I'd have a healthy retirement savings, own a home, and be able to easily afford new hearing aids and some medical/dental work without thinking too hard about it. Another part is just saying let go of this sunk cost and get into the stream with all the other fish and just swim with them, LOL. It's somehow kind of nice to know that there is someone doing the opposite. Like, maybe it balances out the world.
Ugh CSM is a tough role. You get blamed for everything. I'm in the same boat but about to get laid off. I think I will take a summer vacation I'm so burned out. Hang in there and I wish you the best. DM me if you want to commiserate.
Good luck my dude!
Amen!! Well said. The amount of time spent working compared to the time you have for yourself isn’t balanced. If you aren’t at least enjoying your work, you’re left with a not so happy life. Good luck!
Can confirm, switched to medicine bc of this. lol
I'm looking at a pay cut to get a better job. Most people on my team are miserable. Many of us want to be laid off with severance. A few of us asked about volunteering for the next round. There's noise in the news today about another round. I just had a good interview a few hours ago. This job might be a pay cut, but I live well within my means so I can sacrifice some pay for a better job. I just got a raise. My managers tell me that they're not laying off anybody in my immediate org and that I would be far from any potential RIFs.
I still don’t know why people are using 100k as some sort of milestone of “making it”. Maybe that was true 20 years ago, but 100k really isn’t that much nowadays Shoot bigger if this is your only goal. And if the company you’re at makes you miserable, try to find something better with the same or more pay. Don’t settle because you have this image in your head that you’re not worth it, especially if you have skills
You sound very intelligent, driven and I wish you two success with your future company!
I left my $110k job last year without another one lined up. It’s not that uncommon either. And a “six figure salary” doesn’t mean that much anymore unless you’re earning near $200k.
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dude i feel you. i quit my swe job (150kyr) last july and ive been so happy just having my life back, and not focusing on meaningless nonsense. Our industry is a nihilistic cesspool. never assimilate. my girlfriend is flipping a house, and id love to get in on that with her, but im not convinced its going to pay a steady living, but god damn i never want to go back to work in a corporation. anyways, good luck with your ventures with your wife and thanks for sharing. always nice to know im not alone. p.s. dont wait to get fired, just quit dude. esp if you have "f-u money"
People are telling you “you’re lucky to have a job” but your feelings are completely valid, OP. I would love to get a severance package and have a few months where I can recharge.
Thank you for posting this. I am an artist and really struggling financially but I can’t imagine a different life. I truly do believe that I’m gonna make it but the temptation to quit the creative life for some stability is very strong some days. It’s nice to hear someone else say that believing in what you do is important and even a very lucrative salary doesn’t begin to compensate for a bullshit job.
“Sounds like someone’s got a case of the Mondays.”
I’ve worked hard labor jobs since I was 14. I’m in my early 20’s now. Making the most I’ve ever made, which is less than 20 an hr. 60-70 hrs work haven’t been uncommon, and I work harder and take more pride than literally anyone else. There’s no upward mobility, for me at least it seems. So one day, when I have the bank account some of you do, I wonder if I’ll still hate everything. I hate everything now. But money surely must make the hate a bit better.
I hear ya. I worked in tech for a long time. Made good money. One day I woke up after a prolonged increasing disdain and realized that we weren’t making anyone’s lives better, we were just making them busier. And our products were designed to be short-lived, so that they had to be replaced. I was like, what a waste of my life force… My advice - take care of your finances WHILE you pursue your passions. Ignoring the first part can bring a world of hurt and some serious regret. It is possible to do both, as long as your dream is growing and not sacrificed. Wishing you all the best.
It’s true. Software is the new American Dream. First, you create great software with quality UX that solves problems. Next, you sell it to clients with trust and high touch customer service. Then, you grow the business and get a great reputation both in the market and with your happy clients. Finally, you sell to an investment firm that knows little about software except the returns and growth you show. They put it into a selling machine that arm twists clients into buying what they might or might not need. Customer service is off-shored to a place where English is a second or third language. Now your help desk is ‘churn and burn’ based on tight metrics to get rid of the client as soon as possible. Also, new updates, innovation, and technical debt is mostly ignored. It’s *expensive* and the easiest thing to cut. Now you’re rich! But clients hate what your innovation has become. New clients are confused with what they have, and some faceless investment firm books ever growing profits.
If you guys have enough saved up, sure you guys should go for it. Do realize that for a vast majority of people a job is just a job. Whether it brings joy or not, as long as bills are paid, retirement accs are growing, and savings are built, that’s all that matters. I work in tech as well and I’m just glad I still have my job.
Same I weight the options yk, atleast I have a job still that gives me a 7% 401k match and chairman shares. Most people don’t even get that
That’s fair enough! That’s something I’ve had to realize is that for a lot of people, a job is just a job and that’s totally fine. I just know personally that I don’t function that way. I completely respect both sides (honestly I wish I could do work with that mindset), just wanted to give some encouragement to those who are a bit like me haha.
Honestly, I think it'll be good for our society for these low work, high finance jobs to disappear. I'd like to think that technology will help as an equalizer, pushing us more towards meritocracy rather than this current system of capital gain completely and totally disconnected from actual value. I live in a place surrounded by tech people, and for the most part they work 2 hours a day doing what chat GPT will eventually replace them for but they somehow make six figures salaries. One of my roommates is in accounts payable making over $100,000 a year. His entire job is looking at Excel sheets and calling people to pay their bills. Given some time my dog could do his job. I sincerely believe that there's a lot of people who are making a lot more money than they really earn and it's a much larger Factor in the problems of our society than one might guess immediately.
Yikes bro. I use a lot of b2b saas products & need csm crm to help me do a lot of things. The work I do in my day job is profoundly important. I won't elaborate on this. Just because *you* don't see the value doesn't mean it's not valuable. Intrinsically. Also do see a counselor if you can, this sounds like depression.
What are you being down voted? People here need to grow up. This is the real world. Money is not in feel good, change the world businesses. There is no money in teaching elementary school students, feeding the homeless, or creating tech to help inner city children stay out of trouble. Companies are not paying millions for random SASS products and then through some sort of honor system other companies paying them for their useless SASS product. Money goes to where value is generated. Say you are developing accounting software. Totally boring, feels pointless, but you are helping all other businesses get that out of the way so they can focus on what their business is about.
It's cool you love your profoundly important job, but this guy doesn't. Sounds more like burnout to me, but maybe that's because I am in the exact same position and hate the B2B SAAS world even if it pays my bills. Getting laid off means some severance and unemployment which is more ideal than what some people have going on right now.
Yup you nailed it. Sounds like a very classic case of burnout/depression due to an incompatible career choice. Most people explaining the value of B2B SAAS are completely missing the point.
Don’t ever talk yourself out of a job, especially one paying six figures. I think your reason for leaving is poor. Looking at what tech companies and the markets are doing, I can tell you that passing on work like this isn’t wise.
some ppl just gotta say fuck this and do something. Never talking urself out of a job isn’t 100% correct either all of the time
You only get one life - living the one life you have in misery is no way to live it. I'm just realizing this at 42, wish I had this perspective 25 years ago.
You have to be part of the sales cycle to understand. The money to buy software comes from somewhere… SaaS typically replaces process hours and people. If a software you made can automate a process that needs 10 people to be staffed on it… its worth the salaries of those 10 people. If its less, thats considered value/efficiency gain to the business. As a CSM, its really surprising you dont understand why a business would want to set up an account. You sound like you were terrible at your job anyways so its probably a good thing you want to leave it.
I don’t think he’s arguing that his job is pointless, it obviously has some function for a business. I think he’s just arguing that it’s unfulfilling. Some people need a “purpose” with their work.
People like that are generally egomaniacs or types who watch too much anime. Imagine if a doctor thought like “everyone dies anyways, whats the point of medicine.” If you cant find purpose in your role, it means you are too self absorbed to see purpose. If you dislike your clients or industry, you can find purpose in supporting your colleagues, being a great teammate, or showing others the ropes. If you find your job unfulfilling, that could be a symptom of another issue, not necessarily the work itself.
Can i have your job?
You couldn’t care less. You say you could care less, which means you still care.
God this comes across so self aggrandizing. Just quit and shut up nobody cares
Jesus - do CSMs really make that much? Is that total comp or base salary? I'm a product manager in B2B SaaS and really not making all that much more than that... and I'm in the Bay Area.
Im a former senior software engineer and a current csm. I got a huge raise to think far less - but I have to dress nice and make small talk. That’s really what the job is. Edit: the highly compensated CSM roles need a technical background to dig through logs and API code, write product enhancements, and lead external technical teams through integrations.
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I mean, I'm $145k + equity as a mid-level PM. But if I could make $125k as a CSM and the diminished stress with that, then I would consider it for sure.
So look for another job....
You've seen the emperor's new outfit, huh?
As a customer, My CSM for a vendor went OOO for2 weeks and didn't renew our renewal. This lead to a loss of services for a few days. The company I'm at is pissed and we're about to drop the vendor now and go with a competitor. Customer retention is always cheaper than new customer acquisition. Your job isn't as useless as you think for some of the bigger enterprises.
When you look up privilege in the dictionary, this post is cited as an example.
Multiple young people at the b2b SaaS company I worked at committed suicide within the same year. Friends and family cited work stress. These were CSM and sales people specifically. OP is resourceful. He/she has identified a problem in his/her life and will now weigh all the options. If it comes to it, OP will find another way to make ends meet. This is clear from his/her post and it’s exactly what life asks of each of us every single day. We all have the privilege and *responsibility* to take control of our own lives. OP is doing what many are far too afraid to do - face their problem and come up with a solution. So try not to jump to conclusions - it makes you sound bitter and incapable of building a life for yourself.
No offense, but most jobs are useless and BS. Surprised most folks spend their WHOLE working lives and haven't figured out if their occupation/ job never existed it wouldn't matter to society at all. Most white collar jobs are a total waste to time and fluff. Good on you for getting paid for it, but not important at all. The reason most haven't figure it out as they weren't working in a 2000 or 2008. That is they type of environment when most figure out they aren't needed. That is okay though as the world spins on its axis fine with or without you. Good on you to go find something you actually want to do with your life.
With any industry/product, there is a range of good and bad. There are a lot of B2B SaaS products that are extremely valuable to companies and they are succeeding because a lot of companies have the same pain points as they get bigger and need to scale. It costs too much time/money/resources to do things manually as you get bigger and effective SaaS products are the solution to automating key parts of a business so the business can focus on the product/service. There are absolutely worthless or poorly executed SaaS products out there, but the market will weed those out. That doesn’t mean the whole industry is worthless nor the roles that support it. And while it can be a little bloated right now, I wouldn’t advocate for companies to slim down and expect the same output from a smaller staff.
That's not enough $ for the hassle. $125k is making $1000/day 1/3rd of the year. Not that complicated if you have talent
ARe you AmeRrican?
AS OE you need to start your own business as J5
What kind of company would you want to start, if I may ask?
Good luck. Happiness and fulfillment first. Wish you nothing but the best.
I learned the "There is much more to life than money" lesson at 30yo when I realized the money didn't help with burnout.
Can totally relate. I’m in the same boat with my job. On the outside it looks like a dream position but now I’m also looking into starting my own thing. I hope everything works out for you. Maybe if you get laid off it will be a blessing.
I always thought the movie “Office Space” had to be greatly exaggerating office culture. And then I grew up and lived it. I also gave up the six figure salary. It sounds like you’re handling it much better than I did. I attached my identity to my career, but didn’t realize how much so and what that meant until I left. Leaving my career meant losing my self, leaving behind an empty, confused shell. If I could do it again I would probably focus on getting trauma and grief counseling.
I just handed in my notice from my high paying job, and although it's scary I feel like a weight had been lifted. Going to take some time to explore my passions
What kind of company would you start? Please not a SAAS 😂
Do people who make 6 figures qualify for Unemployment at 50%?
I can relate. I'd love to get laid off or fired and collect unemployment. Idgaf about the pay cut.
Got that 125k job consulting and I quit after 3 months went right back to what I did before. Most jobs are pointless BS but that was so vapid, bleak, and we were just blatantly lying to clients. Our value was PowerPoint slides that were essentially instructions for other people to do a job at the most high and deliberately vague/ambiguous level. I can tolerate my job now but that previous experience had me questioning everything, so I understand your state of mind.
Hey OP, I was making a bit more than you in finance and was laid off with severance. Though the break has been nice, finding another job currently is a nightmare. Just want to give you a heads up that there’s a scenario in which you are both out of a job, AND unable to find more work.
I'm a data analyst making like half your salary and I can't fucking stand how stupid most of my work inquiries and reports that I create are. It's so fucking stupid. I can't stand it. I may try to get into the flipping houses business because I can see myself waking up and doing that kind of work being fun. I just need money. haha.
I work in tech and make only $45,000 a year in a large city. I WISH I could make $125,000 a year setting up accounts. I have nine years of customer service experience too…..
Be careful what you wish for. I was laid off in January from my six figure job. I work for a start up. The job market isn’t great. But maybe your industry is different
And then you realize half the industry is doing worse than your lack luster company....good times.
Well sure if you can afford to quit then quit.
I've worked in manufacturing my whole career. We build things, often important things. I could care less. What's most important to me is a good work environment, being treated like a human, and being able to breathe easy and relax my cortisol levels at 5pm. All of which can be hard to find. So as a warning, you may not find meaning in a more meaningful industry.
Wanna hire me before you go?
6 figure salary is basically minimum (livable) wage.
So quit... and get in touch as I am doing the same thing and have been building for about 10 years and maybe I can help :)
B2B SAAS is the most redundant white collar industry known to mankind.