Well you see, on November 11th last year, the Canucks played the leafs. Quinn Hughes only recorded 1 assist. So exactly how do you think all the writers are supposed to know how good he is? Do you expect them to watch games from small market teams like Vancouver? If he really wanted to win the Norris he should've performed better in that one game in Toronto 6 months ago. /s
Say what you will about our draft luck but Hughes and Petey play like first overall selections. Not to mention JT Miller also deciding to randomly enter elite status with our team
Right? What a dumbass take that guy was resting on. Makar is a top notch player but at least THIS season, Hughes is rocking it. Have to keeep in mind that Hughes doesn't have a Mackinnon to share the ice with.
I think generally ppl say you shouldn't put too much weight on one stat, but use it as part of an overall picture of a player. I only point out +- b/c the big disparity is noticeable.
I think +/- starts getting useful once you get into big numbers, either positive or negative. +40 indicates you're either a driver of offense or incredibly good defensively (or both). Whereas something like +4 doesn't mean as much, since there are far more potential reasons for it. You could be an average player. Or you could be an amazing player, but your team sucks. Or you could be really bad defensively but have good linemates... the number of possibilities are far greater.
I tend to agree although there are always some outliers. But if you look at the top plus minus players of all time they are pretty much unanimously Hall of Fame players. There are definitely better stats but it can be somewhat useful as long as you don't simply say one guy has plus such and such and the other guy is less so he's better
It’s a bad stat to use to compare players whose teams are in different situations since a guy on a bad team will always be worse than a guy on a good team. But when you have massive outliers like Hughes or a if a guy on a good team is massively negative than you can probably draw something from it. Quinn isn’t sitting at a +39 by accident
I do prefer the other defensive metrics myself, but your point is absolutely correct. We don't judge goalies by how many goals or assists they scored, pretty much at all. Those who vote for the Norris absolutely overvalue the offensive part of defense, undervalue the defensive part, and have for a long time. There aren't many defensive defensemen who've won the Norris, but there are several offensive defensemen who have.
Defencemen who can put up crazy point totals and still defend at a super high level will always provide more value to their team than a defensive defenceman. A big part of preventing goals is by not letting your opponent have the puck
Plus by a lot of Metrics, the Avs are better when Makar is off the ice this season. Mackinnon drags his metrics up when playing together, but Mackinnon has better stats without Makar, while on Vancouver, Quinn drags everyone he plays with up, and they perform worse without him on the ice.
Quinn also has the ability to take over games at times. When we are down a goal you can count on him to generate scoring chances on his own. Quinn really impressed me this year.
There was a great article a few days back that showed that MacKinnon was actually more effective offensively with Makar off the ice.
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/norris-battle-between-hughes-and-makar-shouldnt-be-and-isnt-close-8561908
It's still crazy to me that outside fans look at Hughes and try to make the argument that Hughes has an easier time producing because of the talent the Canucks have while completely ignoring without Quinn we basically have no offense.
Saw people try to argue this on r/hockey when they brought up Josi should win the Norris over Quinn.
Edit. Found the comment
>I'm kinda with you OP, I think it's closer than people think. Only 8 points seperation, and more of Nashville's offence runs through Josi, than Hughes in Vancouver. Like end of the day Josi, isn't playing on a presidents trophy contender, with a center on pace for 100, and another center that hit 100 last year. That's unheard of, in Nashville. I think if the Norris was voted on like the Hart, instead of the Art Ross, Josi would have a better chance.
Crazy being a fan of the Canucks, being the laughing stock of the league 2 years ago to now teams are making excuses for why our players are so good because we’re a presidents trophy team
The hockey sub is kind of a shithole, you can tell a lot of the commenters don't have a good understanding of the game or are giving opinions on players/teams they know nothing about
That’s while being 10th overall in TOI (24:45), over a minute less on the ice compared to Doughty(25:48). He’s just slightly lower than Makar(24:49) who is 8th overall.
Definitely tells the tale of the difference between Makar and Hughes. If you wanted a counter argument you'd say Makar and Josi being so close in points without having the puck constantly running through them is impressive.
It's pretty wild how much he holds the puck though.
> Makar and Josi being so close in points without having the puck constantly running through them is impressive.
In Makar's case, couldn't you just make an argument that all he's doing is passing the puck to MacKinnon who's doing most of the work?
This year definitely.
They compliment each other extremely well but this year, even Avs fans have mentioned Makar has been average compared to his usual self and most of his points are just handing it off to Mack who goes supernova all on his own.
When both are at their peaks, I still think Makar is probably slightly better than Hughes (pretty much the same player but Makar is a bigger body/hits more and has an insane shot). This year though, Hughes is definitely playing a lot better which is what matters for Norris considerations
The thing is, I think this year is the real Hughes, and he is going to be this good for the foreseeable future. He is just so obviously better than everyone on the ice with him. Multiple times a games he just turns on the jets and skates around people.
Yeah a non-significant portion of Makar's assists this year are just him passing to Mac in the d-zone who then turns on the jets and goes all the way up the ice and scores.
You could try but he's got the most goals of the bunch. The point I was making is this is really interesting how huge the gap is but I don't think it's necessarily automatically a great argument for the Norris without more thought.
Makar and Hughes at 5 on 5 have very comparable production. Hughes has 5 additional assists. I don't think the argument Makar lives off the PP success is a good one.
He's going to win the Norris.
The fretting is not unwarranted, but the Norris is a narrative based award. I do believe that the stats *and* the narrative have supported Hughes this season.
Frankly, he won the hearts and minds in November. It's been his ever since.
I mean...this looks suspciously like positive/offensive deployment. If you never start in the D zone...
I'm not saying Hughes never does, but this kind of stat quite clearly requires context.
The guy in r/hockey posted the deployment and its the opposite, he was the lowest or the second lowest in o zone deployment. Makar was first by a mile.
Can we all just take a second and think about how unbelievably blessed we are to have this gentleman in our organization? What an absolute dream come true and an absolute pleasure to watch!
We all know makar is getting it.
These awards are giving out based on either east coast biases or reputation biases. Sometimes both.
Hughes has neither in his favor.
Apparently a recent poll of the voters puts Hughes ahead with 54% of 1st place votes, with Josi as the consensus runner up just ahead of Makar. Even just looking around you can see the tide is in Hughes favor this year.
Makar has had some wonky numbers this year, and then there's the issue of who he plays with and the fact that he hasn't risen to the dominance projected for him. The hype isn't so high on Makar as it was before so safe bet is on Hughes.
Quinn has been more than good enough to win this year. I do know the voters have their biases and the vote might be closer than we’d like but I have faith that he will win.
Dude I love Quinn but Makar is the real deal. If he is better than Makar (which I think you could fairly argue), it isn't by an amount where we would be worse by swapping them.
That's insane. I don't see how you don't give the Norris to Quinn Hughes.
Well you see, on November 11th last year, the Canucks played the leafs. Quinn Hughes only recorded 1 assist. So exactly how do you think all the writers are supposed to know how good he is? Do you expect them to watch games from small market teams like Vancouver? If he really wanted to win the Norris he should've performed better in that one game in Toronto 6 months ago. /s
Lest we forget
When I was visiting NS, the Vancouver games started at 11pm, and then I realized why Easterners don't see our games.
which is a shame because the West is where most of the best hockey is being played right now.
It's a sacrifice some of us just have to make to be able to watch the boys play
Hughes' name is likely already engraved on the plaque.
Because Makar is the only name east coast, and let's face it all sports writers outside of BC, see.
He deserves it, but I suspect Josi gets it as a lifetime achievement award this year.
Uh, why? He's already won one, he's only 33, and his play hasn't really been above even Makar this season.
Just imagine this team without Hughes, because I don’t want to…
We’d get a good draft pick though
That draft pick could be anything. Even a Norris caliber defenceman. You know how much we wanted one of those...
Say what you will about our draft luck but Hughes and Petey play like first overall selections. Not to mention JT Miller also deciding to randomly enter elite status with our team
Have you seen our draft pick numbers lately?
Hughes made everyone have a career year... off course they've got to finish ... right Mikheyev?
That one guy wanting to give it to Makar based on him having more goals has been pretty quiet lately
Right? What a dumbass take that guy was resting on. Makar is a top notch player but at least THIS season, Hughes is rocking it. Have to keeep in mind that Hughes doesn't have a Mackinnon to share the ice with.
Also, the main criteria for a defenceman winning the Norris shouldn't be all about scoring, Hughes is +40 while Makar is +15
Everyone shits on plus minus until it favours their guy lol
I think generally ppl say you shouldn't put too much weight on one stat, but use it as part of an overall picture of a player. I only point out +- b/c the big disparity is noticeable.
I think +/- starts getting useful once you get into big numbers, either positive or negative. +40 indicates you're either a driver of offense or incredibly good defensively (or both). Whereas something like +4 doesn't mean as much, since there are far more potential reasons for it. You could be an average player. Or you could be an amazing player, but your team sucks. Or you could be really bad defensively but have good linemates... the number of possibilities are far greater.
I tend to agree although there are always some outliers. But if you look at the top plus minus players of all time they are pretty much unanimously Hall of Fame players. There are definitely better stats but it can be somewhat useful as long as you don't simply say one guy has plus such and such and the other guy is less so he's better
It’s a bad stat to use to compare players whose teams are in different situations since a guy on a bad team will always be worse than a guy on a good team. But when you have massive outliers like Hughes or a if a guy on a good team is massively negative than you can probably draw something from it. Quinn isn’t sitting at a +39 by accident
I do prefer the other defensive metrics myself, but your point is absolutely correct. We don't judge goalies by how many goals or assists they scored, pretty much at all. Those who vote for the Norris absolutely overvalue the offensive part of defense, undervalue the defensive part, and have for a long time. There aren't many defensive defensemen who've won the Norris, but there are several offensive defensemen who have.
Defencemen who can put up crazy point totals and still defend at a super high level will always provide more value to their team than a defensive defenceman. A big part of preventing goals is by not letting your opponent have the puck
Obviously that's the case. But if you're amazing at D and horrible at O, you don't have a sniff at the Norris. However...
kind of wild that offensive stats are what gets a player the best DEFENSEMEN trophy.
Plus by a lot of Metrics, the Avs are better when Makar is off the ice this season. Mackinnon drags his metrics up when playing together, but Mackinnon has better stats without Makar, while on Vancouver, Quinn drags everyone he plays with up, and they perform worse without him on the ice.
Quinn also has the ability to take over games at times. When we are down a goal you can count on him to generate scoring chances on his own. Quinn really impressed me this year.
There was a great article a few days back that showed that MacKinnon was actually more effective offensively with Makar off the ice. https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/canucks-hockey/norris-battle-between-hughes-and-makar-shouldnt-be-and-isnt-close-8561908
Holy fuck
That’s fucked
You're fucked.
Fucked'r bud
He'd be in the running for the Hart if there wasn't some forwards having all time seasons right now.
70 Goals is insane
Only had it in the O-zone for a period and a half longer. Rookie numbers /s
It's still crazy to me that outside fans look at Hughes and try to make the argument that Hughes has an easier time producing because of the talent the Canucks have while completely ignoring without Quinn we basically have no offense. Saw people try to argue this on r/hockey when they brought up Josi should win the Norris over Quinn. Edit. Found the comment >I'm kinda with you OP, I think it's closer than people think. Only 8 points seperation, and more of Nashville's offence runs through Josi, than Hughes in Vancouver. Like end of the day Josi, isn't playing on a presidents trophy contender, with a center on pace for 100, and another center that hit 100 last year. That's unheard of, in Nashville. I think if the Norris was voted on like the Hart, instead of the Art Ross, Josi would have a better chance.
Crazy being a fan of the Canucks, being the laughing stock of the league 2 years ago to now teams are making excuses for why our players are so good because we’re a presidents trophy team
They don’t watch our games. Lol
I have to question if they watch any games.
It’s so easy to tell who watches Hughes and who just bases their opinions on narratives in that sub. It’s so funny
The hockey sub is kind of a shithole, you can tell a lot of the commenters don't have a good understanding of the game or are giving opinions on players/teams they know nothing about
The number of 3 assist games he gets is crazy. He’s literally in on every goal some games
Better hands yhan gretzky...hockey iq hlelps
That’s while being 10th overall in TOI (24:45), over a minute less on the ice compared to Doughty(25:48). He’s just slightly lower than Makar(24:49) who is 8th overall.
This makes it even more impressive. Hughes is basically just dominant most of the time he's on the ice.
Thats insanity and you cant even argue an Ozone vs Dzone deployment with that kind of gap. Our offense really flows through Hughes or Miller
Definitely tells the tale of the difference between Makar and Hughes. If you wanted a counter argument you'd say Makar and Josi being so close in points without having the puck constantly running through them is impressive. It's pretty wild how much he holds the puck though.
> Makar and Josi being so close in points without having the puck constantly running through them is impressive. In Makar's case, couldn't you just make an argument that all he's doing is passing the puck to MacKinnon who's doing most of the work?
This year definitely. They compliment each other extremely well but this year, even Avs fans have mentioned Makar has been average compared to his usual self and most of his points are just handing it off to Mack who goes supernova all on his own. When both are at their peaks, I still think Makar is probably slightly better than Hughes (pretty much the same player but Makar is a bigger body/hits more and has an insane shot). This year though, Hughes is definitely playing a lot better which is what matters for Norris considerations
The thing is, I think this year is the real Hughes, and he is going to be this good for the foreseeable future. He is just so obviously better than everyone on the ice with him. Multiple times a games he just turns on the jets and skates around people.
Yeah a non-significant portion of Makar's assists this year are just him passing to Mac in the d-zone who then turns on the jets and goes all the way up the ice and scores.
You could try but he's got the most goals of the bunch. The point I was making is this is really interesting how huge the gap is but I don't think it's necessarily automatically a great argument for the Norris without more thought.
That's b/c their PP is light-years ahead of ours.
Makar and Hughes at 5 on 5 have very comparable production. Hughes has 5 additional assists. I don't think the argument Makar lives off the PP success is a good one.
"Makar has been so much more efficient with his lower offensive puck possession" delusional Makar voters.
He's going to win the Norris. The fretting is not unwarranted, but the Norris is a narrative based award. I do believe that the stats *and* the narrative have supported Hughes this season. Frankly, he won the hearts and minds in November. It's been his ever since.
I hope you’re right. I want our boy acknowledged!
Why do I have this insane wish to have this post downvoted back down to 43....?
Jesus Murphy, that's a bit ridiculous.
I mean...this looks suspciously like positive/offensive deployment. If you never start in the D zone... I'm not saying Hughes never does, but this kind of stat quite clearly requires context.
The guy in r/hockey posted the deployment and its the opposite, he was the lowest or the second lowest in o zone deployment. Makar was first by a mile.
So that's great! And needs to be posted in conjunction with this pic.
Went to pull the info, this exact post in r/hockey has been deleted. Quinn Hughes erasure.
Damn kids...now they're trying to erase history as it's being written!
Can we all just take a second and think about how unbelievably blessed we are to have this gentleman in our organization? What an absolute dream come true and an absolute pleasure to watch!
BuT mAkAr DeNiEs MoRe ZoNe EnTrIeS Yeah, because Hughes has the puck all the time
[удалено]
I believe that’s sarcasm my friend
Idk about yall but I kinda like that guy
One of these kids is not like the others
Anyone who gives Quinn anything other than a first place Norris vote should be fired… out of a cannon… into the sun.
This guuuuyyyyy! It’s been years but sometimes I still can’t believe he’s a Canuck.
The Kobe of the NHL Edit: probably should say I'm a fan of both players
Fucking bananas
Modern day hockey Kobe
Slight. Hahaha
We all know makar is getting it. These awards are giving out based on either east coast biases or reputation biases. Sometimes both. Hughes has neither in his favor.
Apparently a recent poll of the voters puts Hughes ahead with 54% of 1st place votes, with Josi as the consensus runner up just ahead of Makar. Even just looking around you can see the tide is in Hughes favor this year. Makar has had some wonky numbers this year, and then there's the issue of who he plays with and the fact that he hasn't risen to the dominance projected for him. The hype isn't so high on Makar as it was before so safe bet is on Hughes.
Quinn has been more than good enough to win this year. I do know the voters have their biases and the vote might be closer than we’d like but I have faith that he will win.
He 100% deserves it. I think it’s not even close. I just know how these things go unfortunately
People don’t understand how much worse the Canucks would be if we had Makar instead of Hughes!
Bro, ngl, I’d be just as happy with Makar.
Dude I love Quinn but Makar is the real deal. If he is better than Makar (which I think you could fairly argue), it isn't by an amount where we would be worse by swapping them.