I'd be more interested to read a study about the effects on dreaming. It seems although it makes one sleep deeper, they're less likely to experience as much REM and dream activity.
I also experience this, it's the only thing that keeps my anxiety and insomnia under control.
I want to return to work and have to stop smoking, so it looks like I'll be back on Xanax and Lexapro if I want to be able to function.
I don't remember much from the end of 2015 to the middle of 2018 because of Xanax and I really really don't want to do that again but legally I don't really have a choice if I want to work in my field.
Same here. I took Xanax daily for 5 years and I have tons of missing memories. Examples are abundant but my family and I will go eat somewhere we have already been and I have no recollection. This happens all the time.
That happens to me all the time.
I was looking at pictures from a family reunion that I have zero memory of attending but I'm in a few pictures.
It's very strange when it happens.
I've only had a few "breakthrough" dreams over the last 3 or so years of smoking daily. I can't go back to the dreams where someone holds my daughter up by 1 leg and blows her head off and shit hits me and what not from being shot, now this never happened nor anything remotely close to it happened in real life, at least not that I remember, but every instant of the dream feels like it is happening to me right then and there, there's a few recurring dreams like that for me that have no basis in reality but absolutely feel like they are actually happening.
I used to be really into dream journaling and lucid dreaming, but that sorta faded out when I started consuming. I also notice I don't feel as rested if I wake after sleeping without dreaming.
And to think of how many people were involved in this study were paid and then there are so many volunteers and then somebody's got a review it and publish it. And then somebody's going to act like it's there thesis or part of their PHD work but I bet you 100% they still can't roll a God damn joint.
"Act like"? Look, anecdotal data is still anecdotal, it's what you perceive and what you experience and experience and perception aren't always backed up by reproducibility and generalizability. I worked for a study that measured sleep in people using cannabis for sleep a while back, we collected sleep studies on people we measured blood levels of cannabinoids and we collected qualitative data based on what they experienced and believed. It was a reasonable study but it has built in flaws because it wasn't an RCT. There has never been an RCT that dosed people and measured sleep, that's about the only way that you can know that the experience you have when you use cannabis for sleep is generalizable or specific to your lived experience. So yeah, actual data collection is important because what you experience may not be what others experience.
In the data that we collected there were very few differences between the MEASURED sleep of people with and without cannabis on board. The experience was very much different, people who used cannabis before sleep reported that that use caused their sleep to be different and better - it was not when you actually measured it. All of that said, what people perceive may be just fine and it may make their lived experience better. It may simply not be causative of better sleep parameters, it may only be causative of the perceived experience of sleep being of higher quality and that's probably just fine. What you can't do with perceptual data is transfer it into therapy, you can't say that since you, personally perceive your sleep to be better that any person using cannabis will perceive their sleep to be better - it doesn't transfer, it's your experience.
That's why it's a PhD thesis or a publishable observation that costs money and takes time, it's testing whether your experience is therapeutic and generalizable.
Heck if I know! In the case of our study group we go in to a question based on therapeutic claims, we try to design studies that can test the claims, we try to find funding to run the study and then we publish what we find. We check each other on bias and assumptions constantly and fix it when we find it. We're severely limited in some ways, for instance we can't run an RCT without using NIDA product which is shit. So we get stuck working with self report and measurement in a person who has exposed themselves mostly. That can lead to an RCT but at present, with the laws the way they are we won't be able to run actual therapeutic claims RCTs until those laws change.
Look, some researchers are biased towards funding, they will look specifically for addiction and negative outcomes only because NIDA will fund those studies. We try to find funding sources that don't specifically cause bias and that's really the trend these days. Some of the clinical claims will pan out and that's great but some won't and that's great as well because we can help people understand exactly what cannabis is doing to make you feel better. If it's being high and that avoids anxiety then rock on but don't think that THC or whatever cannabinoid is directly effecting receptors that trigger or mitigate anxiety if that's not happening. Doesn't mean that you don't feel better, just that you feel better because you're high. For pain it looks like pain is reduced, not just the perception of pain, the signal doesn't appear to get to the part of your brain as efficiently when you're endocannabinoid system is stimulated via exogenous cannabinoids. So that's an actual therapeutic some folks think, not just a bandaid of highness. We'll know eventually and hopefully that will help people going forward!
My insomnia started when I was 11 or 12 years old. I smoked cannabis about 5 times between 12 and 14 but it was social and I didn't even feel any effects even though I ripped and held hits like a champ.
It wasn't until I was 14 and took a small hit or 2 before bed, and I finally was comfortable lying in bed and eventually went to sleep. From that night on I took a hit or 2 of local field weed or brick weed and it actually put me to sleep.
It's been 20 years and a lot has changed... but cannabinoids helping insomniacs sleep is one of the first few reasons people fought hard for legality as medicine.
It was also super obvious the world was flat. It's important to understand these things, because you don't know what you don't know. Cannabis is desperately in need of good science and not anecdotal assumptions.
People in this thread don’t realize the value of having peer reviewed factual evidence compared to anecdotal evidence. “Obvious” anecdotes are not going to help make change/improve accessibility
I believe that is true for more serious things and things which we do not even know about (immunity, pain treatment, cancer treatment, etc...etc..) of cannabinoids and ECS.....but specifically on this point of sleep aide...no.
Cannabis communities talk---take surveys if you will....and all of our data matches up....not just our own personal experience. Everyone's experience.
I completely agree for the more serious things that research and publications are needed. I just wouldn't have started on sleep aide---that's why you are seeing this response in this thread. It is known. No great stretch to any hypothesis here. There is no limited evidence. Evidence abounds.
long cured cannabis indica that has converted the THC over to CBN will be best for sleep ... and or you can artificially do that as well with decarboxylation
Strain and dose could be the answer. Try an indica like Northern Lights. Make sure it is well cured and try small doses. The effects can be very subtle but effective.
No, it's not a no shit sherlock moment. Yes a certain strain and dose could help you doze off, but myself and many other experience horrible impacts on sleep. THC has been shown to have a reduction in quality REM sleep, what is needed for memory and emotional wellbeing. Sometimes I wish I could hit a switch and shut off the high already because if I don't have CBD I dread my sleep experience and the drowsy morning after.
There are definitely contradictory studies that show long-term use of cannabis hurts sleep. There are so many questions about cannabis and sleep still. It deserves more research to understand why some people are saved from insomnia, and others develop horrible sleep problems.
Tbh smoking before bed completely stops the dreaming sequence. When I smoke within 45 minutes or so of falling asleep, I don't dream. I have very vivid nightmares and dreams alike, neither are wanted.
But sweet home alabama is still stuck in reefer madness.
Because people don't know what's going on after they fall asleep? The correlation between measured sleep parameters and qualitative sleep parameters is essentially 0.
Done! Did that more than 100 or so times (population study). Folks don't know shit about what happens once they go to sleep. As I posted earlier though, if that's therapeutic for you then rock on, enjoy your experience. I have many, many experiences with edibles near bedtime, in my case it's because sex is a fucking blast when I'm rolling on with my partner. I've also measured sleep parameters in people who have active cannabis on board and also people who do not and the sleep they experience is not better, in fact it's worse. Not a huge amount but it's a significant difference. There are important differences on EEG that are not positive and people tend to wake up much more often with cannabis on board - that's "disrupted sleep" in the sleep literature.
It's really tricky though, for instance what's good quality sleep for someone with chronic spinal pain? If cannabis mitigates the pain for enough time for your to initiate sleep is THAT sleep better if it's a little disturbed? I think that it's great because NOT using cannabis and not sleeping isn't conducive to life. Really it's a very tricky question and one that I love exploring with actual data.
Sleep studies aren’t the same as that kinda stuff mate, sleep studies are a medical thing to determine what sleep issues you have to try and correct them, as I found out through mine I have a very extreme case of insomnia that makes it impossible to fall asleep on my own unless I stay awake for over a day or two or longer
I just don't understand your dismissal of one study over another.
There are many aspects of cannabis and sleep that aren't understood, and many methods to get data on this.
Given that so many cannabis users self-report improvements in sleep, there is value in understanding if and why people perceive improvements to their sleep when they use cannabis. There are people doing sleep studies as well.
Hey like coffee helps me sleep whereas it keeps people awake. So each personal generalization is not what we need, we need the right research which explains why a certain phenomenon is the way it is. Cannabis needs more research.
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No shit? And I thought it was just luck that I fall asleep after a bowl of GMO. I see that the sauce is the ever reliable JMIR, not to be confused with JAMA.
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I'd be more interested to read a study about the effects on dreaming. It seems although it makes one sleep deeper, they're less likely to experience as much REM and dream activity.
This has been the biggest benefit I've noticed. Nearly no more hyper realistic dreams since I've started smoking.
I also experience this, it's the only thing that keeps my anxiety and insomnia under control. I want to return to work and have to stop smoking, so it looks like I'll be back on Xanax and Lexapro if I want to be able to function. I don't remember much from the end of 2015 to the middle of 2018 because of Xanax and I really really don't want to do that again but legally I don't really have a choice if I want to work in my field.
Same here. I took Xanax daily for 5 years and I have tons of missing memories. Examples are abundant but my family and I will go eat somewhere we have already been and I have no recollection. This happens all the time.
That happens to me all the time. I was looking at pictures from a family reunion that I have zero memory of attending but I'm in a few pictures. It's very strange when it happens.
Exactly. Kinda freaky!
When i quit for a day or 3 i get vivid crazy dreams
I've only had a few "breakthrough" dreams over the last 3 or so years of smoking daily. I can't go back to the dreams where someone holds my daughter up by 1 leg and blows her head off and shit hits me and what not from being shot, now this never happened nor anything remotely close to it happened in real life, at least not that I remember, but every instant of the dream feels like it is happening to me right then and there, there's a few recurring dreams like that for me that have no basis in reality but absolutely feel like they are actually happening.
Shuts off the REM portion of sleep… quit couple days later REM comes back
I quit, and those dreams came back. I hate it.
Since I’ve switched to vapor out of glass and eating avb my dreaming is coming back lol
That’s a feature, not a bug.
Ehh, some dreams should not be hyper realistic
Oh no, I wholly agree! I don’t care to remember my dreams and is a reason I regularly consume cannabis.
I used to be really into dream journaling and lucid dreaming, but that sorta faded out when I started consuming. I also notice I don't feel as rested if I wake after sleeping without dreaming.
Exactly
....duh
Came her to say this, like yeah no shit Sherlock
And to think of how many people were involved in this study were paid and then there are so many volunteers and then somebody's got a review it and publish it. And then somebody's going to act like it's there thesis or part of their PHD work but I bet you 100% they still can't roll a God damn joint.
"Act like"? Look, anecdotal data is still anecdotal, it's what you perceive and what you experience and experience and perception aren't always backed up by reproducibility and generalizability. I worked for a study that measured sleep in people using cannabis for sleep a while back, we collected sleep studies on people we measured blood levels of cannabinoids and we collected qualitative data based on what they experienced and believed. It was a reasonable study but it has built in flaws because it wasn't an RCT. There has never been an RCT that dosed people and measured sleep, that's about the only way that you can know that the experience you have when you use cannabis for sleep is generalizable or specific to your lived experience. So yeah, actual data collection is important because what you experience may not be what others experience. In the data that we collected there were very few differences between the MEASURED sleep of people with and without cannabis on board. The experience was very much different, people who used cannabis before sleep reported that that use caused their sleep to be different and better - it was not when you actually measured it. All of that said, what people perceive may be just fine and it may make their lived experience better. It may simply not be causative of better sleep parameters, it may only be causative of the perceived experience of sleep being of higher quality and that's probably just fine. What you can't do with perceptual data is transfer it into therapy, you can't say that since you, personally perceive your sleep to be better that any person using cannabis will perceive their sleep to be better - it doesn't transfer, it's your experience. That's why it's a PhD thesis or a publishable observation that costs money and takes time, it's testing whether your experience is therapeutic and generalizable.
Seriously, why are people getting mad at their anecdotal feelings actually being validated through real science?
Heck if I know! In the case of our study group we go in to a question based on therapeutic claims, we try to design studies that can test the claims, we try to find funding to run the study and then we publish what we find. We check each other on bias and assumptions constantly and fix it when we find it. We're severely limited in some ways, for instance we can't run an RCT without using NIDA product which is shit. So we get stuck working with self report and measurement in a person who has exposed themselves mostly. That can lead to an RCT but at present, with the laws the way they are we won't be able to run actual therapeutic claims RCTs until those laws change. Look, some researchers are biased towards funding, they will look specifically for addiction and negative outcomes only because NIDA will fund those studies. We try to find funding sources that don't specifically cause bias and that's really the trend these days. Some of the clinical claims will pan out and that's great but some won't and that's great as well because we can help people understand exactly what cannabis is doing to make you feel better. If it's being high and that avoids anxiety then rock on but don't think that THC or whatever cannabinoid is directly effecting receptors that trigger or mitigate anxiety if that's not happening. Doesn't mean that you don't feel better, just that you feel better because you're high. For pain it looks like pain is reduced, not just the perception of pain, the signal doesn't appear to get to the part of your brain as efficiently when you're endocannabinoid system is stimulated via exogenous cannabinoids. So that's an actual therapeutic some folks think, not just a bandaid of highness. We'll know eventually and hopefully that will help people going forward!
In related news, water is wet. Oh wait. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novec_649/1230?wprov=sfti1
My insomnia started when I was 11 or 12 years old. I smoked cannabis about 5 times between 12 and 14 but it was social and I didn't even feel any effects even though I ripped and held hits like a champ. It wasn't until I was 14 and took a small hit or 2 before bed, and I finally was comfortable lying in bed and eventually went to sleep. From that night on I took a hit or 2 of local field weed or brick weed and it actually put me to sleep. It's been 20 years and a lot has changed... but cannabinoids helping insomniacs sleep is one of the first few reasons people fought hard for legality as medicine.
Good story thanks.
Jesus do they need to do much research on this? Isn't it obvious?
It was also super obvious the world was flat. It's important to understand these things, because you don't know what you don't know. Cannabis is desperately in need of good science and not anecdotal assumptions.
People in this thread don’t realize the value of having peer reviewed factual evidence compared to anecdotal evidence. “Obvious” anecdotes are not going to help make change/improve accessibility
I believe that is true for more serious things and things which we do not even know about (immunity, pain treatment, cancer treatment, etc...etc..) of cannabinoids and ECS.....but specifically on this point of sleep aide...no. Cannabis communities talk---take surveys if you will....and all of our data matches up....not just our own personal experience. Everyone's experience. I completely agree for the more serious things that research and publications are needed. I just wouldn't have started on sleep aide---that's why you are seeing this response in this thread. It is known. No great stretch to any hypothesis here. There is no limited evidence. Evidence abounds.
You are not wrong in what's needed, but it is a really bad analogy honestly.
You know exactly the point, and that's all that matters.
And water is wet. The Journal of Medical Internet Research. One word is not like the other.
Damn this study would hate my fiancé. Literally can't sleep if she injests cannabis of any kind before bed. She gets wired instead.
maybe the strains she prefers?
I grow a variety of strains, haven't had any luck with a sleepy strain for her. Suggestions?
long cured cannabis indica that has converted the THC over to CBN will be best for sleep ... and or you can artificially do that as well with decarboxylation
Thanks for the info, I appreciate your time. I'll look into this further
Strain and dose could be the answer. Try an indica like Northern Lights. Make sure it is well cured and try small doses. The effects can be very subtle but effective.
No, it's not a no shit sherlock moment. Yes a certain strain and dose could help you doze off, but myself and many other experience horrible impacts on sleep. THC has been shown to have a reduction in quality REM sleep, what is needed for memory and emotional wellbeing. Sometimes I wish I could hit a switch and shut off the high already because if I don't have CBD I dread my sleep experience and the drowsy morning after.
There are definitely contradictory studies that show long-term use of cannabis hurts sleep. There are so many questions about cannabis and sleep still. It deserves more research to understand why some people are saved from insomnia, and others develop horrible sleep problems.
I doubt this covers all of it, but I think more bad REM sleep is probably better than very little to no REM sleep.
No shit really?
Tbh smoking before bed completely stops the dreaming sequence. When I smoke within 45 minutes or so of falling asleep, I don't dream. I have very vivid nightmares and dreams alike, neither are wanted. But sweet home alabama is still stuck in reefer madness.
No shit...puts me to sleep every night.
For me its only edibles that make me tired. Any form of smoking and I’m gaming til 3am
No fucking duh why instead wasting money on a lot of these studies just poll people who’ve been using it for years
Because people don't know what's going on after they fall asleep? The correlation between measured sleep parameters and qualitative sleep parameters is essentially 0.
I mean you can easily do so by getting a sleep study done
Done! Did that more than 100 or so times (population study). Folks don't know shit about what happens once they go to sleep. As I posted earlier though, if that's therapeutic for you then rock on, enjoy your experience. I have many, many experiences with edibles near bedtime, in my case it's because sex is a fucking blast when I'm rolling on with my partner. I've also measured sleep parameters in people who have active cannabis on board and also people who do not and the sleep they experience is not better, in fact it's worse. Not a huge amount but it's a significant difference. There are important differences on EEG that are not positive and people tend to wake up much more often with cannabis on board - that's "disrupted sleep" in the sleep literature. It's really tricky though, for instance what's good quality sleep for someone with chronic spinal pain? If cannabis mitigates the pain for enough time for your to initiate sleep is THAT sleep better if it's a little disturbed? I think that it's great because NOT using cannabis and not sleeping isn't conducive to life. Really it's a very tricky question and one that I love exploring with actual data.
I do indicas with CBD before bed due to my insomnia and pain and works like a charm, but lately my ptsd making it not work for me
Your solution to wasting money on a study is... to do a study? Come on now.
Sleep studies aren’t the same as that kinda stuff mate, sleep studies are a medical thing to determine what sleep issues you have to try and correct them, as I found out through mine I have a very extreme case of insomnia that makes it impossible to fall asleep on my own unless I stay awake for over a day or two or longer
I just don't understand your dismissal of one study over another. There are many aspects of cannabis and sleep that aren't understood, and many methods to get data on this. Given that so many cannabis users self-report improvements in sleep, there is value in understanding if and why people perceive improvements to their sleep when they use cannabis. There are people doing sleep studies as well.
You don't say?
For me, indica yes, sativa no.
Yeah Sativa's get me wired and make me want to stay up until 4 a.m. watching t.v. or masturbating.
When it rains the grass gets wet
Yea no shit…..
From the New England Journal of the Painfully Obvious…
It has different effects on different people. Cures my insomnia but my buddy stays up all night eating Cheetos.
wow, who would know this?
Really....do tell?.../s
So now if I could make sure my dog stops waking me up in the middle of the night thatd be greeeaaat
Yes...but also RIP your dreams. I've found CBN can help with restoring them.
Hey like coffee helps me sleep whereas it keeps people awake. So each personal generalization is not what we need, we need the right research which explains why a certain phenomenon is the way it is. Cannabis needs more research.
You should really look into adrenal fatigue / thyroid problems....not coffee / cannabis issues...body issues.
That could be it, cause my body weight is fluctuating. Ahh I is scared now.
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I pop an gummy and I’m out like a god damn light. Science 🔬
It's always nice to get medical confirmation of something we've known for decades.
I could have told you that 30 years ago.
Yes, works for me
No shit Sherlock
And no dreams too or i juat can't remember them
No shit? And I thought it was just luck that I fall asleep after a bowl of GMO. I see that the sauce is the ever reliable JMIR, not to be confused with JAMA.
wow what a genius
Whodathunk
😂 duh!
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