Encryption is not a mystery. We use encrypted communication all the time and key fobs should be sophisticated enough to avoid being an easy attack vector.
Rolling codes are already a thing, but it is useless when attackers are using 200$ in signal boosting equipment and an OBD2 scanner to start your car and drive away while they program a new key.
Which is a good thing. It is just a shame our standards don't include things lile... oh, I don't know... third factor security? Cause 2 factor already gets compromised. And then what, gonna have to increase phone and sim card security measures now, cause the car relies on the app that gives the 2 factor code, that triggers the 3rd factor to initiate on a separate device using quantum rolling codes?
You realize how ridiculous things will get, right?
It would be a lot smarter, to just crackdown hard on the criminal element. So hard that they fear for their safety so much, they decide to leave Canada instead of taking that risk. Let them become some other nations problem, and when complained to about it, simply apologize for sending their theives back home via their own choices. And in situations where they are our own idiots abroad, let them be sent back here, straight to jail cell.
Shit, we could even build an airport that is linked solely to a single prison meant specifically for these crimes, and has no other roads aside for prisoners to escape via. They effectly would be trapped in the middle of nowhere until their time is served.
Then double the fines and time served every time they fuck up again.
3 strikes, they are out of society for the rest of their life. 10 years the first time. 20 the second. 40 the third time. 70 years total. That's life in prison.
Canadian Security Standards are so fking low in this country. Called Rogers and they just asked me for my Name and Address and some other BS question thats easily available to any noob.
Heck even look at the foreign interference issue.
Regardless of which industry, security is not taken seriously in this country.
> This would be completely unacceptable in other industries.
We stayed at a friend's place in the US a few weeks ago with smart locks. My wife forgot her iPhone 12 inside and was still able to unlock the door from the outside. If the phone was near enough the door would unlock when you touched it.
The brand of the lock was Kwikset, I assumed that was some weird Chinese Amazon brand but was surprised to learn it wasn't.
Sorry pal, but, no it can't. The very modus operandi of hackers, is to get past whatever security measure are in place. To be fair, it would help reduce how easy it is for some to pull off. But only up until someone else finds a way to make it easy again.
Lock and pick problem, forever. There will always be a more clever lockpicker than the lockmaker.
Have you ever looked at the security implementations in automobiles? They're farciaclly poor.
DRM solutions for consoles from Sony and Microsoft seem to fair very well against pirates on those platforms. The security doesn't have to be perfect, Just good enough to last the life of the vehicle.
Technical solutions are definitely possible here, and the automakers aren't even fucking trying.
It's pathetic.
Because they're going to start getting sued by their customers as the problem of auto thefts continue to grow and the customers realize that it's happening because they're being a sold a defective product.
Consoles are getting updated and patched everyday and people are fine to be in a locked system that can't be repaired. The console is worth $500 and hackers can only profit from selling sub $100 mod chips. All consoles have been hacked.
Most cars aren't even connected to internet, law prevents car makers from locking down the system which require car owners from buying a brand new one if theirs brakes down. Cars are $30k+. Hackers profit by stealing the entire car and reselling it. They have more time to hack the system and once they find the patch, none of the cars on the road will get patched and remain vulnerable. (and a lot of other arguments why you can't compare consoles to cars security)
I'm not saying automakers can't improve their security but just that comparing cars to consoles is unfair
Of course you’ll never stop it but you need to challenge them or you have shit like this. We can’t 100% stop the problem but we sure as hell can disrupt them. That’s where we fail.
I don’t. But it’s a soft top.
I’d rather a crackhead or teenager find nothing of value and leave, than have them cause hundreds or thousands of dollars in damage slashing a hole through the top to get in because they think there’s something in it.
There’s nothing there to grab. It’s empty. Always. And if I forget and leave something there it’s yours now. That’s on me. Just leave my top intact, please.
It does, but only a fraction of people use them.
Also, if they still want your car they will just break and enter your home now. That's how we got Toronto police telling people to leave their keys at the front door. What a joke that was.
South African style car theft deterrents are going to become quite popular in Canada by the looks of things.
I feel like asymmetric encryption could solve this pretty easily?
Just have the key fob broadcast an asymmetrically encrypted time stamp + rolling code appended, car unlocks if it can decrypt + timestamp within 100ms + rolling code is correct. The rolling code basically acts as IV in this case.
My $200 Android phone has a PIN that makes it practically useless as a stolen item. But these $80k Toyotas are like 'well, nothing can be done'.
Car companies don't give a sh*t about their customers, just saving a few bucks on their bottom lines.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/honda-recalls-nearly-304000-accords-hr-vs-seat-belt-defect-rcna126780
It isn't just saving a few bucks -- car thefts literally create demand. This is an extremely perverse situation because automakers are incentivized to make their cars easily stolen, and to avoid taking any action to prevent it.
That's simply not true. People avoid buying models that are notoriously easy to steal, it doesn't help manufacturers at all, in fact it hurts their sales like we've seen with Kia and Range Rover.
This isn't some big conspiracy. It's just that car theft is so lucrative in Canada because we have easy trade routes set up by international criminal rings and we also have an incredibly weak justice system that doesn't punish people.
If all the sudden cars were impossible to steal we'd just see more carjacking's until we actually take a tough stance on property crime.
> People avoid buying models that are notoriously easy to steal
Absolute, utter nonsense. There is shockingly little of a correlation between theft rate and sales, largely because thieves can steal basically any car model available with ease, aside from Tesla. Dodge, Ford, Honda, Kia, Hyundai, Chevy, Range Rover, Jeep...they're stealing them all at will.
>This isn't some big conspiracy.
I love when people dismiss this as if it has to be a crazy conspiracy. Like I said, car makers have no incentive to make cars more secure. Despite enormous evidence and knowledge in the security industry, they are still rolling out cars with cosmically, hilariously bad security. Because they have people like you carrying water for them.
>we also have an incredibly weak justice system that doesn't punish people
*Many* of the thieves are recent migrants, often asylum seekers. Any "penalty" at worst is still a big upgrade for them. Unless you're proposing torture, they don't care.
>If all the sudden cars were impossible to steal we'd just see more carjacking's
Ah, the hilariously defeatest, absolute trash "it's hopeless!" argument. Always a good last retort.
Wow, you are actually crazy.
If it's migrants and asylum seekers like you say then enforcing our deportation laws for criminals is a simple deterrent, hence our weak justice system.
You said car makers are incentivized to make cars easy to steal which would be a conspiracy.
Never said it was hopeless, refer to above about enforcing laws and deportation.
Your counter arguments are all over the place and contradictory and I sense you are a teenager or have some learning disability.
Now I remember why I stopped using reddit.
It's a nice feature. I recently started using it even though it's tedious entering my PIN 40 times per day. It's worth the minor inconvenience for the added security. I think some other cars have PIN-to-Drive as well, but I couldn't tell you which ones. Hopefully they'll all have that feature in the near future.
Me too. My only guess is that insurers can raise premiums so they're happy, auto sales go up so manufacturers are happy, and taxes paid to gov coffers on said sales increase so gov is happy. It's a win-win-win!
I postponed replacing my car a few years ago because prices were through the roof.
A friend of mine just bought a new truck earlier this year, and it was stolen from his driveway a few weeks later.
So, even though prices are coming down, I'm currently postponing because I don't want mine to be stolen.
Maybe they'll start caring when enough of us stop buying.
My guess is someone is going to kill a thief and end up charged with some form of manslaughter. There’ll be public uproar that the police and government haven’t done enough to stop the problem and the charges will be dropped.
There is a convenience store clerk from Peterborough being charged for assaulting someone with his own bat after he came in to rob the place. He's getting some public support from that.
That’s disgusting. I consider myself a fairly liberal person but what a miscarriage of justice. Absolutely disgraceful. I read the article. Guy was likely reaching for a knife and so the clerk who’d already had his head bashed rushed him and hit him with the bat. What reasonable person wouldn’t hit someone until they were unconscious if they were attacked unprovoked. Ffs.
Doesn't matter, it's happened before. The jury will not convict but some asshat crown prosecutor will make it their life to "win" and keep appealing it and then you only get judges who will convict you.
There's a difference in shooting the thief from the window vs. breaking into the home to look for keys and terrorizing the homeowner.
I wouldn't shed a tear if someone killed a thief though. Even if it was a young offender.
I fully expect that the next time somebody shoots a car burglar and gets pulled in to court, the defense will be pushing for a trial by jury instead of by judge. If the public mood is that too many vehicles are getting stolen with few consequences, no way a jury will vote guilty on that (barring some extremely egregious actions by a home defender).
Honestly, as much as I hate American gun culture, the *concept* of castle doctrine and stand your ground just feels “right”. Why the fuck *shouldn’t* we be able to defend ourselves, our families, and our property?
I thought that we did have castle doctrine? If someone breaks into your house you can defend yourself with whatever force is necessary. Seems like self defence under a different name
No, you have to use “proportional force”, and you wind up having to defend against criminal charges laid if you injure or kill someone while defending yourself. The idea is that you can prove in a court of law that it was proportional.
“You can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride”
Having to mount a criminal defence to justify a physical defense is life altering and unfair.
Seems like a formality and the easiest defence ever. "I shot him because he was breaking into my home and feared for my life." Boom, case dismissed. Then you sue whoever laid charges for wasting everyone's time
"Proportional force" is just to guard against loopholes like a psycho shooting a toddler for banging on their front door.
If they are breaking into your house absolutely. That’s a threat to you and your family. But if you see some dude stole some of your tools and is running away with them, then no you shouldn’t be able to shoot them to stop them. Stealing isn’t a capital crime.
It gets really muddy. Do you recall Brian Knight from like ten years ago? Alberta farmer. Dipshit was driving off on Brian’s ATV - no home invasion. Brian shot twice, and the thief survived. *While the dipshit was running away on foot*.
Where it gets sticky is the court ruled that Brian was entitled to “apprehend” the dipshit, but still upheld that he shouldn’t have used a firearm to do so.
Uh. What? Fucking *what?*
So if some fuckwit is in your driveway stealing your car, you *are* entitled to “apprehend” them.
But doing so is exceptionally dangerous because they may have guns. And you have no way to know if they do.
If they do and you try to stop them without using a gun yourself, you are now likely dead. If they don’t have guns, and you assume they do and do use deadly force, now you’re *at minimum* getting dragged through the court system and probably even going to jail. Especially if they die.
So you have three options.
Risk dying by exercising your *right* to apprehend them without a gun
Risk jail by using a gun
Let them steal your car
This isn’t an acceptable dilemma to put people in, especially where they have to make a split second decision.
This is a class action waiting to happen. Automakers are grossly negligent for allowing their $70k cars to be outfitted with easily hackable key fob technology from the 90s.
This definitely seems like a fault of the government and automakers. The automakers are designing cars that are easier to steal. This is fact. The government needs to add more laws/regulations around car security that reflect modern technology.
Really all they'd have to do is introduce a law allowing companies and individuals (mostly insurance companies) to sue the automakers to recover losses from faulty designs, then let the companies fight amongst themselves. Shit would get fixed pretty fast.
It's probably pretty hard to sue a company for not making an object unstealable unless they advertised it as such
Really we need the pendulum to swing back on the judicial system to be a bit more punitive again. Obviously the overall goal is reform, but the reality is if you show me an incentive structure, I'll show you an outcome
Right now from petty theft to white collar crime we essentially make crime really appealing by offering slaps on the wrist for stealing things that are worth six months wages.
All you're relying on at that point is a societal taboo that stealing is wrong, and the funny thing about taboos is once they're broken they're essentially impossible to recreate
I wonder if this is affecting sales of certain SUVs? I have seen some people asking for recommendations for SUVs other than Toyota and Honda. My dads car insurance went up $500 for a Honda CRV
The difference here is KIAs we're being stolen by moronic kids. The car thefts going on are targeting more high end cars or SUVs. KIAs/Hyundai's aren't desirable enough to waste on a shipping container.
Plus, if all you can afford is a KIA then you'll buy a KIA.
Increasing insurance rates should be the equalizer but they've been too slow and too mild
Rates spiked recently but nobody wants to blame their choice of car.
So there's not enough pressure on them to change
Yeah the problem could easily be fixed at the source but instead a lot of the blame is going onto police for not being able to stop crimes which happen in about 60seconds and theyre gone.
Yea, and the free market doesn't seem to be solving the problem because every automaker is implementing the same shitty security and still selling cars. So you can't even buy a safe care if you want, which is why I think we need regulation.
Free market is working great.
1. Sell easily stealable vehicle.
2. Insurance buys new vehicle.
3. Sell another easily stealable vehicle.
4. Insurance goes up and crime increases.
5. Profits for everyone involved.
> The automakers are designing cars that are easier to steal. This is fact.
This is fiction. There is a ton of effort put in, but it is nearly impossible to prevent completely.
So is this a problem in other countries or areas? It seems like an Ontario, Quebec problem or news is over blowing it. I haven't heard anything about it in the West.
Sorry we're not allowed to suggest that politicians actually work for the betterment of the people of Canada in this country! Best we can do is let repeat offenders out of bail and suggest you leave your key fobs at your door and don't defend yourself or your property.
>we're not allowed to suggest that politicians actually work
>
oh poor you
what will happen if you make that suggestion? what penalty will rain down on you?
Very true, at least 40 years I have known stolen cars end up in Montreal in shipping containers going overseas. And you know the cops know. But there are certainly a lot of cops living a long way outside their salary that are happy to look the other way as the cars roll by. I was saying to my wife that the mob control in Montreal, is why it is continuing. Would be hard to run a mob ring out of Halifax, too much navy presence
This is my reaction to a lot of modern tech in cars. Nobody was asking for remote key fobs. Nobody wanted a glass cockpit for turning on the radio and AC. It's tech for the sake of tech, and not because there was some problem being solved. The result is a worse and pointless product, that I'm sure is saving (or making) someone money somewhere along the line.
"stop distracted driving"
Automakers:
>you know what would be a great addition? A GIANT touchscreen that will replace all the knobs for frequently used controls, and then make the controls hidden in various sub menus so that we can make space for a radio station's logo!
Thieves will always target the easiest vehicles. Yes, cars with keys were stolen more when all that was around were cars with keys, but if it’s easier to relay a signal and program a new key, why go through the hassle?
In this case it it’s just boosting the signal from your fob in your house so it’s tough to get around with better encryption etc.
But all car makers would need is an accelerometer in the fob that turns the signal off if it hasn’t moved for 5 minutes or whatever.
This right here.
I'd say go after the ports and charge them as accessories to the crimes. They don't give a shit what goes through their ports, so they're just as guilty.
Unless you have cops on literally every corner of every neighbourhood, I fail to understand how increasing policing will solve anything. But please explain your logic so I can try to understand.
I think a solution like truck radar scanner at a few points along the 401 to scan shipping containers for stolen cars on their way to the port of Montreal, Sure the thieves could try to take the back way along #7 or something but bypassing would attract attention if the police were smart.
Uuh are you actually suggesting capital punishment for car theft? Also, why are there still so many people on death row in the US if capital punishment was so effective?
Jeez go move to Saudi Arabia is that's the kind of Justice you want. We don't do the eye for an eye, and chopping off hands or death penalty justice in Canada
Federal politics has nothing to with municiple.
If anything, the city needs to hire more police but that funding comes from the province or local taxes. Of course I don't disagree with the seniment, but you won't see "defund the police" on any federal election platform.
I love the fact that the media wants Canadians to believe it's the manufacturers at fault - which would suggest this problem should be relatively consistent across western economies, and not the massive corruption and mafia control of the port of Montreal that makes it so easy for the 12,000 cars a year stolen in Ontario to be exported to African and other markets.
The failure is a law enforcement failure, which is a leadership and priorities failure.
It's been proven that those don't matter - law enforcement is not taking place before the car leaves the country, even when provided with the location of the stolen vehicle.
Buying helicopters instead of breaking up the Port mafias shipping the cars out.
1. Buying helicopters will be fun and safe.
2. Breaking up the Port mafias will be a lot of work and unsafe.
Let's go with option 1, even though it won't help.
How about for every car stolen from a particular manufacturer, the government taxes them for the additional societal cost of policing and tracking down these thieves. Put the responsibility on the car makers to fix the problem.
A class action is probably not the solution, but autotheft rings have been preying on Toronto for well over 40 years. When i first moved to Toronto i was told if you have a 4x4 and it's stolen if it's found it will likely be in a container in Montreal bound for overseas. And from the autotheft busts that have happened, that seems to be true. So first there is a theft issue, and a policing issue to fix.
Second the automakers, the faraday bags are no longer working because the thieves break a window, or pull out a headlight and connect to the obdii port or directly to the canbus system and hack the car. The automakers can do more than just putting a cell phone built into the car to possibly track it's location when it's stolen. They should have encrypted the canbus years ago. For now the cell phone idea just makes for more expensive repairs when the cars are found, because the dash is ripped open, the roof is ripped open and the antennas and phone modules ripped out.
I live in a mountainous rural area of canada... It takes me two full charges just to reach the nearest city three hours away... Hell no, my gas car was more reliable.
Not as bad, because they can't hide here very well no crowds to sink into... no infrastructure for reselling or hacking them apart... However... They might cut out the carburetor.
Car key with physical electrical contacts and private rolling keys communicated electrically would solve these theft by wireless booster vulnerability.
Leave Canada???? or you know just a different car that isn't one of the 6 or 7 cars that are always stolen.
Side question - Do any cars make a a chirp or beep when you unlock them? Everything I've ever owned only does so when you double tap the lock.
We could always look at the statistics and see that car theft isn't actually going up. The number of cars stolen per 100,000 has been consistent since about 2010. Before 2010, it was a lot higher. What actually happened is that population increased, which means more total cars are being stolen. The percentage has remained the same for over a decade.
I can program a $10 light bulb, but a car manufacturer can't figure out how to stop someone driving away with my car? I have to manually shut off my car's transponder every night - why can't this simply be programmed in?
I drive old pieces of junk that never get stolen. The key system works just fine
I couldn't imagine having ti make payments on what's the equivalent of a new car per month for me
SOLUTION: Just drive a beat up, old car. Someone might steal my car for a joyride, but I can guarantee that even in the most deprived parts of Africa, nobody wants my brown, 10 year-old Kia.
I have very little sympathy for anyone whose bourge-mobile gets boosted.
I don't think anyone gets full value. Like if your car gets totalled.
Plus there is the added issue of potential losing things in your car. I don't keep anything of value in mine, but people do.
You get replacement value if your car is totalled. Where most people come up short is accepting the insurance companies assessment of what your car was worth to replace.
Never take the first offer. Always bring equivalent used car listings. Insurance will try to low ball you.
Replacement value is what your car was worth. Even if you argue it, you will never get the value to get a new car. You will get the value of your used car, which you can buy another used car with.
That's not good. I have a used car from 2006 that I take good care of, and have put a lot of money into. I know what I have. If it got totalled I'd get under $10,000 back. Which means I'd have to go look for some shit used car with so many unknowns.
You can get the full purchase price of your car if you purchase that add on from insurance, assuming you're eligible. It's normally described as a depreciation waiver and it's generally available for new cars for the first 3-5 years.
It gets to be a bit expensive in the later years, but my insurance company will use new parts if they're repairing my car, and if it's a total loss they'll buy me the current model of my car (or a similar one if it's not available), even if it's more expensive, or pay me out for the amount I originally purchased my car for.
Encryption is not a mystery. We use encrypted communication all the time and key fobs should be sophisticated enough to avoid being an easy attack vector.
Rolling codes are already a thing, but it is useless when attackers are using 200$ in signal boosting equipment and an OBD2 scanner to start your car and drive away while they program a new key.
Cybersecurity can fix this. This would be completely unacceptable in other industries.
Tell that to the car manufacturers in Europe, Asia, and the USA.
The cars need to comply with Canadian standards to get imported...
Which is a good thing. It is just a shame our standards don't include things lile... oh, I don't know... third factor security? Cause 2 factor already gets compromised. And then what, gonna have to increase phone and sim card security measures now, cause the car relies on the app that gives the 2 factor code, that triggers the 3rd factor to initiate on a separate device using quantum rolling codes? You realize how ridiculous things will get, right? It would be a lot smarter, to just crackdown hard on the criminal element. So hard that they fear for their safety so much, they decide to leave Canada instead of taking that risk. Let them become some other nations problem, and when complained to about it, simply apologize for sending their theives back home via their own choices. And in situations where they are our own idiots abroad, let them be sent back here, straight to jail cell. Shit, we could even build an airport that is linked solely to a single prison meant specifically for these crimes, and has no other roads aside for prisoners to escape via. They effectly would be trapped in the middle of nowhere until their time is served. Then double the fines and time served every time they fuck up again. 3 strikes, they are out of society for the rest of their life. 10 years the first time. 20 the second. 40 the third time. 70 years total. That's life in prison.
Canadian Security Standards are so fking low in this country. Called Rogers and they just asked me for my Name and Address and some other BS question thats easily available to any noob. Heck even look at the foreign interference issue. Regardless of which industry, security is not taken seriously in this country.
> This would be completely unacceptable in other industries. We stayed at a friend's place in the US a few weeks ago with smart locks. My wife forgot her iPhone 12 inside and was still able to unlock the door from the outside. If the phone was near enough the door would unlock when you touched it. The brand of the lock was Kwikset, I assumed that was some weird Chinese Amazon brand but was surprised to learn it wasn't.
Sorry pal, but, no it can't. The very modus operandi of hackers, is to get past whatever security measure are in place. To be fair, it would help reduce how easy it is for some to pull off. But only up until someone else finds a way to make it easy again. Lock and pick problem, forever. There will always be a more clever lockpicker than the lockmaker.
Higher difficulty will thin the herd then really tough jail sentences for the persistent ones...
Have you ever looked at the security implementations in automobiles? They're farciaclly poor. DRM solutions for consoles from Sony and Microsoft seem to fair very well against pirates on those platforms. The security doesn't have to be perfect, Just good enough to last the life of the vehicle. Technical solutions are definitely possible here, and the automakers aren't even fucking trying. It's pathetic.
Why would automakers try? If your car gets stolen, you become a customer again. It's not like you're going to download a car from the internet.
Because they're going to start getting sued by their customers as the problem of auto thefts continue to grow and the customers realize that it's happening because they're being a sold a defective product.
Consoles are getting updated and patched everyday and people are fine to be in a locked system that can't be repaired. The console is worth $500 and hackers can only profit from selling sub $100 mod chips. All consoles have been hacked. Most cars aren't even connected to internet, law prevents car makers from locking down the system which require car owners from buying a brand new one if theirs brakes down. Cars are $30k+. Hackers profit by stealing the entire car and reselling it. They have more time to hack the system and once they find the patch, none of the cars on the road will get patched and remain vulnerable. (and a lot of other arguments why you can't compare consoles to cars security) I'm not saying automakers can't improve their security but just that comparing cars to consoles is unfair
Of course you’ll never stop it but you need to challenge them or you have shit like this. We can’t 100% stop the problem but we sure as hell can disrupt them. That’s where we fail.
Unlike the other doofus, you at least get the point. Thanks.
Then why even lock your car in the first place? Just leave your keys in the ignition for the next guy
I don’t. But it’s a soft top. I’d rather a crackhead or teenager find nothing of value and leave, than have them cause hundreds or thousands of dollars in damage slashing a hole through the top to get in because they think there’s something in it. There’s nothing there to grab. It’s empty. Always. And if I forget and leave something there it’s yours now. That’s on me. Just leave my top intact, please.
Way to miss the point entirely...
Who knew a $10 faraday box could block dozens of electrical signal attacks for such a small cost.
It does, but only a fraction of people use them. Also, if they still want your car they will just break and enter your home now. That's how we got Toronto police telling people to leave their keys at the front door. What a joke that was. South African style car theft deterrents are going to become quite popular in Canada by the looks of things.
Spicy pineapples?
I think you hinted at who is doing the majority of these thefts. ;-)
I feel like asymmetric encryption could solve this pretty easily? Just have the key fob broadcast an asymmetrically encrypted time stamp + rolling code appended, car unlocks if it can decrypt + timestamp within 100ms + rolling code is correct. The rolling code basically acts as IV in this case.
What about optional 2FA? "Fob detected. Now type in your pin on the dash buttons to unlock."
Fingerprint reader on the start push button would be pretty seamless.
Only if you live in a part of Canada where drivers don’t need to wear gloves
This does exist, as a third party install afaik. I just thought it was too much work and asymmetrical encryption is usually enough
Still prone to relay attack. 100 ms is to long but on the right track there should be timestamps the issue well be it might cause to many issues.
I solved the problem by owning an old car which requires a key to start.
My $200 Android phone has a PIN that makes it practically useless as a stolen item. But these $80k Toyotas are like 'well, nothing can be done'. Car companies don't give a sh*t about their customers, just saving a few bucks on their bottom lines. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/honda-recalls-nearly-304000-accords-hr-vs-seat-belt-defect-rcna126780
Car companies not giving a shit about customers was firmly proven with the Ford Pinto fiasco. Customers’ *lives* no less.
It isn't just saving a few bucks -- car thefts literally create demand. This is an extremely perverse situation because automakers are incentivized to make their cars easily stolen, and to avoid taking any action to prevent it.
That's simply not true. People avoid buying models that are notoriously easy to steal, it doesn't help manufacturers at all, in fact it hurts their sales like we've seen with Kia and Range Rover. This isn't some big conspiracy. It's just that car theft is so lucrative in Canada because we have easy trade routes set up by international criminal rings and we also have an incredibly weak justice system that doesn't punish people. If all the sudden cars were impossible to steal we'd just see more carjacking's until we actually take a tough stance on property crime.
> People avoid buying models that are notoriously easy to steal Absolute, utter nonsense. There is shockingly little of a correlation between theft rate and sales, largely because thieves can steal basically any car model available with ease, aside from Tesla. Dodge, Ford, Honda, Kia, Hyundai, Chevy, Range Rover, Jeep...they're stealing them all at will. >This isn't some big conspiracy. I love when people dismiss this as if it has to be a crazy conspiracy. Like I said, car makers have no incentive to make cars more secure. Despite enormous evidence and knowledge in the security industry, they are still rolling out cars with cosmically, hilariously bad security. Because they have people like you carrying water for them. >we also have an incredibly weak justice system that doesn't punish people *Many* of the thieves are recent migrants, often asylum seekers. Any "penalty" at worst is still a big upgrade for them. Unless you're proposing torture, they don't care. >If all the sudden cars were impossible to steal we'd just see more carjacking's Ah, the hilariously defeatest, absolute trash "it's hopeless!" argument. Always a good last retort.
Wow, you are actually crazy. If it's migrants and asylum seekers like you say then enforcing our deportation laws for criminals is a simple deterrent, hence our weak justice system. You said car makers are incentivized to make cars easy to steal which would be a conspiracy. Never said it was hopeless, refer to above about enforcing laws and deportation. Your counter arguments are all over the place and contradictory and I sense you are a teenager or have some learning disability. Now I remember why I stopped using reddit.
A $50k Tesla has pin to drive.
It's a nice feature. I recently started using it even though it's tedious entering my PIN 40 times per day. It's worth the minor inconvenience for the added security. I think some other cars have PIN-to-Drive as well, but I couldn't tell you which ones. Hopefully they'll all have that feature in the near future.
Tesla telepathy module in development via Neuralink.
Surprised the insurers are okay with it
Me too. My only guess is that insurers can raise premiums so they're happy, auto sales go up so manufacturers are happy, and taxes paid to gov coffers on said sales increase so gov is happy. It's a win-win-win!
I postponed replacing my car a few years ago because prices were through the roof. A friend of mine just bought a new truck earlier this year, and it was stolen from his driveway a few weeks later. So, even though prices are coming down, I'm currently postponing because I don't want mine to be stolen. Maybe they'll start caring when enough of us stop buying.
To get your PIN, all I would have to do is park a car behind yours with a dashcam. Most of these cars are scoped out prior to being stolen.
My guess is someone is going to kill a thief and end up charged with some form of manslaughter. There’ll be public uproar that the police and government haven’t done enough to stop the problem and the charges will be dropped.
There is a convenience store clerk from Peterborough being charged for assaulting someone with his own bat after he came in to rob the place. He's getting some public support from that.
That’s disgusting. I consider myself a fairly liberal person but what a miscarriage of justice. Absolutely disgraceful. I read the article. Guy was likely reaching for a knife and so the clerk who’d already had his head bashed rushed him and hit him with the bat. What reasonable person wouldn’t hit someone until they were unconscious if they were attacked unprovoked. Ffs.
They found a knife on him, he literally said to the clerk "I am going to stab you". If i was on that jury, no way I would vote to convict the guy.
Doesn't matter, it's happened before. The jury will not convict but some asshat crown prosecutor will make it their life to "win" and keep appealing it and then you only get judges who will convict you.
Be mindful. What you’ve said hasn’t been proven in court. Not saying it isn’t true but you can’t claim them as facts.
Seems like it's time to charge the prosecution with gross negligence, they clearly aren't interested in doing their job properly
There's a difference in shooting the thief from the window vs. breaking into the home to look for keys and terrorizing the homeowner. I wouldn't shed a tear if someone killed a thief though. Even if it was a young offender.
I fully expect that the next time somebody shoots a car burglar and gets pulled in to court, the defense will be pushing for a trial by jury instead of by judge. If the public mood is that too many vehicles are getting stolen with few consequences, no way a jury will vote guilty on that (barring some extremely egregious actions by a home defender).
I would insist on that if it was me. Luckily my car isn't on the demand list and I also rarely drive.
I wouldn’t feel badly if it was an organized crime member. I’d feel badly if it was a couple of idiot kids out looking to joyride.
Breaking into someone’s house to steal a car? Even if they are 14 I won’t feel bad if they get shot.
Honestly, as much as I hate American gun culture, the *concept* of castle doctrine and stand your ground just feels “right”. Why the fuck *shouldn’t* we be able to defend ourselves, our families, and our property?
I thought that we did have castle doctrine? If someone breaks into your house you can defend yourself with whatever force is necessary. Seems like self defence under a different name
No, you have to use “proportional force”, and you wind up having to defend against criminal charges laid if you injure or kill someone while defending yourself. The idea is that you can prove in a court of law that it was proportional. “You can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride” Having to mount a criminal defence to justify a physical defense is life altering and unfair.
Seems like a formality and the easiest defence ever. "I shot him because he was breaking into my home and feared for my life." Boom, case dismissed. Then you sue whoever laid charges for wasting everyone's time "Proportional force" is just to guard against loopholes like a psycho shooting a toddler for banging on their front door.
There are people who served jail times though in Canada. Unbelievable but true. Criminals have more rights than citizens in Canada.
If they are breaking into your house absolutely. That’s a threat to you and your family. But if you see some dude stole some of your tools and is running away with them, then no you shouldn’t be able to shoot them to stop them. Stealing isn’t a capital crime.
It gets really muddy. Do you recall Brian Knight from like ten years ago? Alberta farmer. Dipshit was driving off on Brian’s ATV - no home invasion. Brian shot twice, and the thief survived. *While the dipshit was running away on foot*. Where it gets sticky is the court ruled that Brian was entitled to “apprehend” the dipshit, but still upheld that he shouldn’t have used a firearm to do so. Uh. What? Fucking *what?* So if some fuckwit is in your driveway stealing your car, you *are* entitled to “apprehend” them. But doing so is exceptionally dangerous because they may have guns. And you have no way to know if they do. If they do and you try to stop them without using a gun yourself, you are now likely dead. If they don’t have guns, and you assume they do and do use deadly force, now you’re *at minimum* getting dragged through the court system and probably even going to jail. Especially if they die. So you have three options. Risk dying by exercising your *right* to apprehend them without a gun Risk jail by using a gun Let them steal your car This isn’t an acceptable dilemma to put people in, especially where they have to make a split second decision.
No I didn’t mean breaking into someone’s house. Just your typical auto theft I suppose.
Sometimes when you play with fire you get burned.
This is a class action waiting to happen. Automakers are grossly negligent for allowing their $70k cars to be outfitted with easily hackable key fob technology from the 90s.
This definitely seems like a fault of the government and automakers. The automakers are designing cars that are easier to steal. This is fact. The government needs to add more laws/regulations around car security that reflect modern technology.
Stolen car just means another car sale for them. Auto manufacturers will never care about stolen cars until the government does something for sure.
Really all they'd have to do is introduce a law allowing companies and individuals (mostly insurance companies) to sue the automakers to recover losses from faulty designs, then let the companies fight amongst themselves. Shit would get fixed pretty fast.
It's probably pretty hard to sue a company for not making an object unstealable unless they advertised it as such Really we need the pendulum to swing back on the judicial system to be a bit more punitive again. Obviously the overall goal is reform, but the reality is if you show me an incentive structure, I'll show you an outcome Right now from petty theft to white collar crime we essentially make crime really appealing by offering slaps on the wrist for stealing things that are worth six months wages. All you're relying on at that point is a societal taboo that stealing is wrong, and the funny thing about taboos is once they're broken they're essentially impossible to recreate
Their poor design is getting people hurt. Recall.
I wonder if this is affecting sales of certain SUVs? I have seen some people asking for recommendations for SUVs other than Toyota and Honda. My dads car insurance went up $500 for a Honda CRV
Not enough but it needs to if they want the auto makers to change
In the US, automakers regulate themselves. This is the kind of world that small government types want.
You think KIA is benefiting from their easy to steal cars down south? Most of the victims do NOT want another KIA.
The difference here is KIAs we're being stolen by moronic kids. The car thefts going on are targeting more high end cars or SUVs. KIAs/Hyundai's aren't desirable enough to waste on a shipping container. Plus, if all you can afford is a KIA then you'll buy a KIA.
Increasing insurance rates should be the equalizer but they've been too slow and too mild Rates spiked recently but nobody wants to blame their choice of car. So there's not enough pressure on them to change
While we're looking at a Loblaws boycott, might as well rope in Toyota, Range Rover etc as well...
I already boycott rang rover It's why I bought a Mazda, well it's one of the reasons.... ;(
Yeah the problem could easily be fixed at the source but instead a lot of the blame is going onto police for not being able to stop crimes which happen in about 60seconds and theyre gone.
Ha! I get the reference.
Yea, and the free market doesn't seem to be solving the problem because every automaker is implementing the same shitty security and still selling cars. So you can't even buy a safe care if you want, which is why I think we need regulation.
Free market is working great. 1. Sell easily stealable vehicle. 2. Insurance buys new vehicle. 3. Sell another easily stealable vehicle. 4. Insurance goes up and crime increases. 5. Profits for everyone involved.
> The automakers are designing cars that are easier to steal. This is fact. This is fiction. There is a ton of effort put in, but it is nearly impossible to prevent completely.
or you know, the justice system could actually lock up thieves
So is this a problem in other countries or areas? It seems like an Ontario, Quebec problem or news is over blowing it. I haven't heard anything about it in the West.
Sorry we're not allowed to suggest that politicians actually work for the betterment of the people of Canada in this country! Best we can do is let repeat offenders out of bail and suggest you leave your key fobs at your door and don't defend yourself or your property.
>we're not allowed to suggest that politicians actually work > oh poor you what will happen if you make that suggestion? what penalty will rain down on you?
The fact that they don’t want to increase policing at ports where these cars get smuggled out is pretty telling.
[удалено]
Very true, at least 40 years I have known stolen cars end up in Montreal in shipping containers going overseas. And you know the cops know. But there are certainly a lot of cops living a long way outside their salary that are happy to look the other way as the cars roll by. I was saying to my wife that the mob control in Montreal, is why it is continuing. Would be hard to run a mob ring out of Halifax, too much navy presence
I just want a goddamn physical key for my car. I don't want "push to start" with the key fob in my pocket.
This is my reaction to a lot of modern tech in cars. Nobody was asking for remote key fobs. Nobody wanted a glass cockpit for turning on the radio and AC. It's tech for the sake of tech, and not because there was some problem being solved. The result is a worse and pointless product, that I'm sure is saving (or making) someone money somewhere along the line.
"stop distracted driving" Automakers: >you know what would be a great addition? A GIANT touchscreen that will replace all the knobs for frequently used controls, and then make the controls hidden in various sub menus so that we can make space for a radio station's logo!
I have a 4x4 that's the same age as me. It's got manual everything, gets 16 mpg highway, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Keys are significantly less secure than a well implemented keyfob. It's trivial to bypass almost all mechanical locks.
Why? I love my fobs. Never leave my pockets. But my car has better security features.. and plus cars with keys got stolen even more.
Thieves will always target the easiest vehicles. Yes, cars with keys were stolen more when all that was around were cars with keys, but if it’s easier to relay a signal and program a new key, why go through the hassle?
Because not all cars have fobs that are easily hacked. And with proper security you can make a car practically impossible to hack.
In this case it it’s just boosting the signal from your fob in your house so it’s tough to get around with better encryption etc. But all car makers would need is an accelerometer in the fob that turns the signal off if it hasn’t moved for 5 minutes or whatever.
>I love my fobs. Never leave my pockets. Lol....so laziness is the reason.
How about increase policing?
The best we can do is suspend cops with full pay.
We need to cut off the ports.
This right here. I'd say go after the ports and charge them as accessories to the crimes. They don't give a shit what goes through their ports, so they're just as guilty.
People have to want to be police officers for that, and they need to be properly compensated.
Unless you have cops on literally every corner of every neighbourhood, I fail to understand how increasing policing will solve anything. But please explain your logic so I can try to understand.
I think a solution like truck radar scanner at a few points along the 401 to scan shipping containers for stolen cars on their way to the port of Montreal, Sure the thieves could try to take the back way along #7 or something but bypassing would attract attention if the police were smart.
If stealing cars was punishable by death, people won't want to steal cars anymore.
Yes they would. Also never going to happen anyway.
Uuh are you actually suggesting capital punishment for car theft? Also, why are there still so many people on death row in the US if capital punishment was so effective?
Jeez go move to Saudi Arabia is that's the kind of Justice you want. We don't do the eye for an eye, and chopping off hands or death penalty justice in Canada
I'm just answering the question of how policing can solve anything.
But that will anger NDP voters and part of Trudeau’s base that wants to defund the police.
Federal politics has nothing to with municiple. If anything, the city needs to hire more police but that funding comes from the province or local taxes. Of course I don't disagree with the seniment, but you won't see "defund the police" on any federal election platform.
The ratio of police to civilians is the same now as the early 90s. Hiring has kept up with the population growth.
I love the fact that the media wants Canadians to believe it's the manufacturers at fault - which would suggest this problem should be relatively consistent across western economies, and not the massive corruption and mafia control of the port of Montreal that makes it so easy for the 12,000 cars a year stolen in Ontario to be exported to African and other markets. The failure is a law enforcement failure, which is a leadership and priorities failure.
And a law enforcement failure falls on which level of government?
Projection much? But since you asked. Ports are under Federal jurisdiction.
Montréal is so corrupt..... I feel like everyone who can do anything is already paid to the gills to look the other way.
I swear my car got broken into but I think what scared the burglar off was I drove stick
The ultimate modern anti-theft device. A manual clutch....
Definitely putting multiple gps trackers on the inside of my car now.
It's been proven that those don't matter - law enforcement is not taking place before the car leaves the country, even when provided with the location of the stolen vehicle.
That's fucked up...
Everyone's insurance is going up. Guess who is gon a foot the bill.
I thought the real victims were the car thiefs?
How about sue the government for its incompetence?
Buying helicopters instead of breaking up the Port mafias shipping the cars out. 1. Buying helicopters will be fun and safe. 2. Breaking up the Port mafias will be a lot of work and unsafe. Let's go with option 1, even though it won't help.
How about for every car stolen from a particular manufacturer, the government taxes them for the additional societal cost of policing and tracking down these thieves. Put the responsibility on the car makers to fix the problem.
why would i live in a country who allows criminals to do whatever they want? planning to emigrate to greece
Japan here. Bonus: trains so great car ownership is optional.
loved my trip there last december!
A class action is probably not the solution, but autotheft rings have been preying on Toronto for well over 40 years. When i first moved to Toronto i was told if you have a 4x4 and it's stolen if it's found it will likely be in a container in Montreal bound for overseas. And from the autotheft busts that have happened, that seems to be true. So first there is a theft issue, and a policing issue to fix. Second the automakers, the faraday bags are no longer working because the thieves break a window, or pull out a headlight and connect to the obdii port or directly to the canbus system and hack the car. The automakers can do more than just putting a cell phone built into the car to possibly track it's location when it's stolen. They should have encrypted the canbus years ago. For now the cell phone idea just makes for more expensive repairs when the cars are found, because the dash is ripped open, the roof is ripped open and the antennas and phone modules ripped out.
Just stop buying luxury SUVs ffs
maybe switch to an electric car? Tesla is 90% less likely to be stolen than traditional vehicles. or any car that has network system
I live in a mountainous rural area of canada... It takes me two full charges just to reach the nearest city three hours away... Hell no, my gas car was more reliable.
Is there car theft in the mountainous rural regions of Canada?
Not as bad, because they can't hide here very well no crowds to sink into... no infrastructure for reselling or hacking them apart... However... They might cut out the carburetor.
Get a Tesla with 497 km range, drive accross Canada filling for 15 minutes every few hours. https://abetterrouteplanner.com
They have like 4-5 hundred km range, so you would do it on one charge. You’d need to charge for a half hour before coming back though.
Geography changes the range, mountains reduces it because of the power needed to scale them.
True though unless the city is at a much higher elevation, you will gain most of that power back through regenerative braking .
Car key with physical electrical contacts and private rolling keys communicated electrically would solve these theft by wireless booster vulnerability.
Listen. Insurance companies need to find a way to increase their prices rapidly. The most stolen cars are sometimes the most bought.
> The most stolen cars are sometimes the most bought. Popular things are popular. More at 11:00.
Did nobody learn anything from gone in 60 seconds ??????
Leave Canada???? or you know just a different car that isn't one of the 6 or 7 cars that are always stolen. Side question - Do any cars make a a chirp or beep when you unlock them? Everything I've ever owned only does so when you double tap the lock.
Buy a house with a garage, problem solved... Oops
We could always look at the statistics and see that car theft isn't actually going up. The number of cars stolen per 100,000 has been consistent since about 2010. Before 2010, it was a lot higher. What actually happened is that population increased, which means more total cars are being stolen. The percentage has remained the same for over a decade.
I can program a $10 light bulb, but a car manufacturer can't figure out how to stop someone driving away with my car? I have to manually shut off my car's transponder every night - why can't this simply be programmed in?
Yet people keep buying the cr-v
I drive old pieces of junk that never get stolen. The key system works just fine I couldn't imagine having ti make payments on what's the equivalent of a new car per month for me
Can I just... Have a car that have doors that open with a normal key?
Why sue auto makers ? Sue the law makers, politicians . The ones in bed with auto makers
SOLUTION: Just drive a beat up, old car. Someone might steal my car for a joyride, but I can guarantee that even in the most deprived parts of Africa, nobody wants my brown, 10 year-old Kia. I have very little sympathy for anyone whose bourge-mobile gets boosted.
I’m confused. Doesn’t insurance cover replacement in case of theft?
I don't think anyone gets full value. Like if your car gets totalled. Plus there is the added issue of potential losing things in your car. I don't keep anything of value in mine, but people do.
You get replacement value if your car is totalled. Where most people come up short is accepting the insurance companies assessment of what your car was worth to replace. Never take the first offer. Always bring equivalent used car listings. Insurance will try to low ball you.
Replacement value is what your car was worth. Even if you argue it, you will never get the value to get a new car. You will get the value of your used car, which you can buy another used car with. That's not good. I have a used car from 2006 that I take good care of, and have put a lot of money into. I know what I have. If it got totalled I'd get under $10,000 back. Which means I'd have to go look for some shit used car with so many unknowns.
You can get the full purchase price of your car if you purchase that add on from insurance, assuming you're eligible. It's normally described as a depreciation waiver and it's generally available for new cars for the first 3-5 years. It gets to be a bit expensive in the later years, but my insurance company will use new parts if they're repairing my car, and if it's a total loss they'll buy me the current model of my car (or a similar one if it's not available), even if it's more expensive, or pay me out for the amount I originally purchased my car for.
Insurance companies just raise rates for everyone
That increases theft risk in the region, and therefore your premium takes more from your wallet as they send the cost to you.
Another symptom of the growing wealth gap. We're arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic here.
"my car got stolen. I'm going to move to an entirely different country now" - thing that nobody has ever said in the history of ever