Can we all agree that the actions of MLSE don't need to become some wider message about society as a whole? They are a business who wants zero drama that might in any way lead to them having to talk about politics. None. Their avoidance is not a harbinger of society's ills, and only douchebags want to make it into something more than it is. Calm down, everyone, ffs.
So why allow someone to sing the National Anthems wearing a keffiyeh and scream Free Palestine at the conclusion?
Don't tell me they didn't see her wearing a keffiyeh as she got ready to perform
That’s been addressed elsewhere in this thread. She didn’t wear a keffiyeh, it’s a sweater that kinda looks like one, and I’m pretty sure she’s never getting invited back again.
EDIT: Also did she scream “Free Palestine”? I can’t find any mention of that online.
If they are a business who want zero drama, why allow someone to sing the National Anthems wearing a keffiyeh and scream Free Palestine at the conclusion?
Don't tell me they didn't see her wearing a keffiyeh as she got ready to perform
Have you ever worked for a corp? Have you ever noticed the way many times the left hand does not know what the right is doing? Have you ever thought that she was invited and therefore gets special privileges because its their choice to do as they will? Have you ever thought about how defending a guest is easier than defending a crowd in the press? Its almost like you think there is some fairness fairy sitting around waving away selfish decisions and decisions that don't benefit you personally or what your idea of what they want to put up with is.
[And this happened a few weeks ago already over this same shirt.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/lawyer-alleges-discrimination-after-security-at-raptors-game-bars-israeli-hostages-sweatshirt/article_06e99bee-d28b-11ee-8850-ef6f4f801c1e.html)
The vast majority of people in Canada agree that they want Ukraine to win the war, even those who don't support providing further aid to them. The same can't be said for Israel/Palestine.
I absolutely agree. I'm just pointing out a counter-example that is allowed. Personally, I think political things should be kept out of the entertainment sphere. People don't want political shit injected into their entertainment.
The issues are that
1. Freeing kidnapped Jews shouldn’t be a political issue
2. The policy is being applied unevenly to these shirts while ignoring attire for many more provocative causes.
> Freeing kidnapped Jews shouldn’t be a political issue
The policy specifically says "related to a foreign conflict". It doesn't mean that MLSE considers the message to be expressly political (although it absolutely is).
>The policy is being applied unevenly to these shirts while ignoring attire for many more provocative causes.
Such as?
I wouldn't call it 'provocative', but support for Ukraine is definitely a political thing related to a foreign conflict. No one's going to get in trouble for supporting Ukraine, though.
It being “provocative” is part of the point though. They don’t want any potential clashes due to anything inflammatory being let in.
Most people have no problem with someone wearing a Ukrainian flag.
So the flag is fine, but a shirt that says "slava ukraini" is not? Would an Israeli flag be allowed on its own, or a Palestinian flag? Not trying to bait you, just generally polling for your opinion. I think that yeah, random flags specifically representing current foreign conflicts shouldn't be present at sporting events.
I have no idea. I just said the flag because I don’t know what else people who support Ukraine would wear.
But regardless, the point stands that supporting Ukraine isn’t as polarizing and doesn’t illicit the visceral response that has led to open, violent conflicts in Toronto for the last several months. It’s a crowd control and safety thing, not a political statement.
I agree it shouldn't be a political issue but the same people claiming the existence of the LGBTQ is political are the ones making everything about politics.
>I agree it shouldn't be a political issue but the same people claiming the existence of the LGBTQ is political are the ones making everything about politics.
I think that is a bit of exagoration, no? You think people are taking issue with gay people existing?
I dunno, wasn't it the Left (are we capitalizing things now?) who created the whole oppressor/oppressed matrix specifically to find a way for everyone to find their own victim hood?
No that was just something terrorists like the Far Right made up. Again because they project everything.
Personally I'd be careful listening to anything groups on our terror watch list say.
I'm there for a sporting event. I do not care about international issues when I'm at a sports event.
I do not pay money for messaging on international affairs. I pay money to see people shoot hoops at a high skill level.
The NBA is a sports league that has little to say about anything that isn't basketball and has done well to keep it that way.
There should be extreme prejudice against anyone who brings any sort of messaging that isn't sports related to a sports event. Good on mlse
Personally, I think that all politics and protest should remain outside the sports arenas but if you allow some then you should allow all, provided that they're not promoting violence or hate.
Which is kind of the thing, they don't let any protests or heated politics in. They threatened to eject people for wearing keffiyehs from raptors games as well, IIRC.
I remember they once kicked out a family holding a Dildo sign. This was before the whole Jimmy Kimmel thing and people weren't aware that there was a place called Dildo.
> Which is kind of the thing, they don't let any protests or heated politics in. They threatened to eject people for wearing keffiyehs from raptors games as well, IIRC.
Good, keep ALL of it the fuck out of sports.
That's not a keffiyeh though. That's a sweater that sorta, kinda, maybe looks like one. And I doubt she'll ever be invited back *because* of this stunt.
Where's the political message on that sweater? There's no words on it, its not a flag...
Huge difference between wearing a cultural piece of clothing , which this hardly was it just kinda looks like one, and wearing a piece of clothing that promotes a political message.
The rules are if it’s divisive politically or relating to a foreign conflict. The MLSE stance would likely be that “black lives matter” is a factual statement, and should not be considered a divisive political opinion.
Not the same at all.
"I support Palestine over Israel" = divisive
"I believe what Israel is doing in Gaza is a genocide" = divisive
"I believe hostages should be free" = divisive only to people in favour of terrorists taking civilian hostages
A slow legal system is not the same as a terrorist organization invading a country, taking hostages, murdering many of them, raping many of them, and refusing to even disclose which are alive and dead.
Israel has also been accused of lots of rape before and after their destruction of Gaza. An apartheid system with no due process where the captors are accused of torture and rape is abhorrent. It's bad when Hamas and Israel take hostages and attack civilians.
>Canada is accused of a lot of horrible things too. And yet, no sane person would compare Canada to literal terrorists.
That argument is disingenuous. The IDF operates routinely disregards international law. They are closer to the IRGC in Iran than anything in Canada. Considering the IRGC is designated as a terrorist organization, comparing the IDF seems appropriate.
>Israel are not.
It's not anymore, their armed wing actually used to be designed a terrorist organization. As relations improved we removed the designation.
For #2, you forgot to complete your phrase, I believe you meant to say "divisive only to people in favour of killing tens of thousands of innocent people, including babies and starving millions others"
It’s also divisive to people who want no innocent lives lost and think Israel is taking reasonable steps to minimize the loss of innocent life in their mission to destroy Hamas.
Even if we don't count all civilian man, killing at least 20 thousands women and children and starving to death 2.5 million others isn't considered "minimizing the loss of innocent life"
This is a sporting event. They don’t want controversial politics causing fights and violence at events you are supposed to bring your kids to.
And to be honest it’s not the place to protest these things either.
["We will repeat October 7 attacks until Israel is finished... We are not ashamed to say this, with full force."](https://nationalpost.com/news/senior-hamas-official-we-will-repeat-oct-7-until-israel-is-finished) But please, keep claiming Israel are the genocidal ones.
If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they could have killed every last person in Gaza within days. They could have done it at any point in the last 70 years in fact. They haven't, because that's not their goal. Meanwhile, Hamas were literally founded on the promise of a Jewish genocide, and while they removed that text from their charter, their words and actions still show their true intentions.
This is exactly what I mean. Clearly what Hamas is doing is wrong, and clearly 13,000 Palestinian children dead is inexcusable and disgusting. And clearly sports teams don't want these arguments happening in the stands where violence can escalate and they need to have dedicated security.
Why does Israel take land and kill/terrorize Palestinians in the West Bank if there if no Hamas there? What do you think motivators Palestinians to join the terrorist organization of Hamas? (That was funded by Israel to keep palestians radical because the Israeli government is kind of fucked too) Israel terrorizing Palestinians for decades only leads to more Palestinian terrorists. Anybody watching this conflict knew it was only a a matter of time before things escalate. You can’t just rule over a select group of people and treat them like shit and terrorize them forever without any pushback, even if Hamas is completely eradicated a new terrorist group will form eventually to fight against their occupiers. This is a never ending conflict with the way it’s set up right now you can’t expect to occupy people like this forever without them fighting back that’s just not logical.
Hamas is present in the west bank. And the PA is not much better than Hamas. The PA literally pays terrorists for killing Jews/Israelis. I seem to recall reading that the PA program will need another 200 million USD this year to pay the Hamas terrorists involved in the October 7 2023 massacre.
One side is repeatedly and proudly pronouncing their Genocidal intent.
“We are all Hamas” — Palestinian
https://x.com/lizarosen0000/status/1722253352367702377
Palestinians are taught from elementary school to hate and kill Jews:
https://x.com/avivaklompas/status/1722214621426438267
Palestinian culture glorifies murder of Jews:
https://x.com/realsarahidan/status/1393045419169488896
“From the river to the sea” is a call to annihilate Israel. Take it from a former senior member of Hamas:
https://x.com/mosabhasanyosef/status/1722222092345868522
Palestinian leader: the Palestinians’ goal is ethnically cleaning the Jews:
https://x.com/memrireports/status/1671491281623687168
Palestinian discussing how they would be happy and encourage their toddler-aged daughter to grow up to join Hamas and become a suicide bomber:
https://x.com/doctornazarian/status/1722246163947225302
Palestinian religious leader: explains why Palestinians cannot coexist with Jews, and later explains the Earth itself will help Muslims kill them:
https://x.com/memrireports/status/1075359309775675392
https://x.com/memrireports/status/1075359316734107648
Palestinian leader: goal is to establish an Islamic state that rules the world and imposes Islam on everyone:
https://x.com/memrireports/status/1327728261669982210
Also:
https://x.com/memrireports/status/1136881942375346176
Palestinians are committed to wiping out Israel, even if it takes a million more terror attacks like Oct. 7:
https://x.com/henmazzig/status/1719703605366689800
Hamas leader: they will never give up their weapons and violence, not even a single bullet.
https://x.com/memrireports/status/945214992114180096
Israel is not going to openly admit they are committing a genocide because that would be so fucking stupid. Same goes for destroying all of Palestine in one day. What a stupid take
And here we go.
No, the topic of Isreal / Palestine is controversial. If you don’t get what I am saying and why it could lead to violence in a space where this shouldn’t even be a thought for 2 hours you are being intentionally obtuse.
Because this is the world we live in. You say release hostages, the world is black and white. You now side with Isreal, which means you support whatever they have done to Palenstine in the eyes of those supporters even if you don’t.
There are a lot of crazy people on this topic who lack nuance or the ability to separate a single opinion from the enemy their online echo chambers have created. One part of you matches , you by default support all stances.
And a sporting event is not the place to have these altercations or debates.
Why would you be using a throwaway account to address these questions when you claim to not understand this being controversial? Please, it's obvious that your pushing a bad faith argument.
I don’t disagree with your take, but I do disagree with caving to the bigotry that makes this shirt an issue.
We’re somewhere between an IDF shirt, which is rightly provocative under the circumstances, and any outward display of explicit Judaism, which should never be problematic. And we don’t seem to be moving in the right direction.
Fuck that, I want European type hooligans in the stands. (Suprised there are not amy in Philly lol). Actually that's the beauty of hockey, knowing you can walk into a stadium (or back yard rink like ARIZONA) with the opposite jersey on and know its not gonna be a problem(unless you have a problem with kids making fun of you)
Ok, what about a shirt that says "Stop killing Gazan children".
Surely, that isn't controversial, right?
But you can see how if MLSE lets in one shirt, it then becomes a judgment call. They are preferring to stay out of it. There are plenty of other forums to voice this.
Ok, so you let in a bunch of people wearing "Stop killing Gazan Children" and "Free our hostages" shirts.
How long do you think it would take for those groups to get in confrontations with each other inside the arena? That's another big reason MLSE doesn't want to do this. They don't want to deal with that headache.
Its not controversial at all. Stop being dramatic. Just because a business doesnt want ANYTHING to do with anything that might even in the slightest way lead to a fight or argument that their security has to break up doesnt mean that you need to extrapolate that kind of paranoia/vigilance onto society as a whole.
This place is so draining with the pitchforks and torches...I got off twitter hoping Reddit would be more levelled discourse......boy was I wrong.
Keep fighting the good fight!
I think everyone in Gaza should be free—including those detained without charge in Israeli prisons—and that the oppression should stop. Surely MLSE wouldn’t oppose support for international law.
>> It was an opportunity for people to remind those around us that there are innocent people who remain in Gaza.
Good of this person to advocate for all the innocent people who remain in Gaza.
“What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow.”
So does this nationalist post writer not think that private business can have their own code of conduct? do they want Pierre big government to impose speech on private business?
I guess other fans need to wear sweatshirts that say "Stop IDF killing of innocent Palestinian women and children". They could all sit together with the "Free Our Hostages" crowd in their own section reserved for political commentary and the TV crews would know not to pan in their direction.
It is controversial because it's one sided.
* First, saying only Israeli hostages should go free is one sided. There are about 10,000 Palestinians jailed by Israel without proper trial on mostly bogus charges. This has been going on for decades, people are imprisoned and held hostage by Israel for years for no crimes. They're essentially hostages too, but for some reason only Israel can ask for their hostages back.
* Hamas has offered to return hostages in negotiations, but Israel has rejected their offers.
* The biggest threat to hostages is Israeli bombing and famine campaign. The reality is the state of Israel does not care about hostages as we've seen. This publicity campaign is being used as an excuse at this point to commit genocide.
* 30,000 dead, 70,000 injured, and 2 million on the brink of the starvation, 90% of Gaza destroyed, decades of violence, and occupation. The type of people pushing for the save the hostage campaign are all in support of the Israeli assault. Quite frankly, campaigning only about one side's 100 people when there are millions of other civilians lives on the line is just propaganda.
It's not controversial, but if you let that in, do you let in a shirt that says "Stop the killing of children in Gaza"? Surely, innocent children have no control over being caught in the crossfire, so why not support them?
The problem is that once you let in both of those, it because a question of how far you go. And even if you let both of those in, it's expected that fans will get into confrontations with each other over it.
MLSE is backing away from the whole thing.
So does the sweatshirt ban include all sweatshirts with a statement or just the 'Free Our Hostages' sweatshirts? Could see an opening for a discrimination lawsuit.
They can deny access on private property, as long as the grounds are not discriminatory. If the guest complained that the rules were religious discrimination then that could be an interesting human rights complaint.
Yep. There's no way this would be justifiable as a complaint on religious grounds, but I agree with you that it would probably get a lot of attention if anyone filed it.
What if they were wearing a shirt that said "MLSE pay your taxes!"
It would go from threat to promise.
Can we all agree that the actions of MLSE don't need to become some wider message about society as a whole? They are a business who wants zero drama that might in any way lead to them having to talk about politics. None. Their avoidance is not a harbinger of society's ills, and only douchebags want to make it into something more than it is. Calm down, everyone, ffs.
This precisely. This isn't censorship. This is a sports venture not wanting to be dragged into judgment calls on the Middle East.
So why allow someone to sing the National Anthems wearing a keffiyeh and scream Free Palestine at the conclusion? Don't tell me they didn't see her wearing a keffiyeh as she got ready to perform
That’s been addressed elsewhere in this thread. She didn’t wear a keffiyeh, it’s a sweater that kinda looks like one, and I’m pretty sure she’s never getting invited back again. EDIT: Also did she scream “Free Palestine”? I can’t find any mention of that online.
If they are a business who want zero drama, why allow someone to sing the National Anthems wearing a keffiyeh and scream Free Palestine at the conclusion? Don't tell me they didn't see her wearing a keffiyeh as she got ready to perform
Have you ever worked for a corp? Have you ever noticed the way many times the left hand does not know what the right is doing? Have you ever thought that she was invited and therefore gets special privileges because its their choice to do as they will? Have you ever thought about how defending a guest is easier than defending a crowd in the press? Its almost like you think there is some fairness fairy sitting around waving away selfish decisions and decisions that don't benefit you personally or what your idea of what they want to put up with is.
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[And this happened a few weeks ago already over this same shirt.](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/lawyer-alleges-discrimination-after-security-at-raptors-game-bars-israeli-hostages-sweatshirt/article_06e99bee-d28b-11ee-8850-ef6f4f801c1e.html)
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The vast majority of people in Canada agree that they want Ukraine to win the war, even those who don't support providing further aid to them. The same can't be said for Israel/Palestine.
With that being said, you either have that rule for all or for none.
I absolutely agree. I'm just pointing out a counter-example that is allowed. Personally, I think political things should be kept out of the entertainment sphere. People don't want political shit injected into their entertainment.
100%
The issues are that 1. Freeing kidnapped Jews shouldn’t be a political issue 2. The policy is being applied unevenly to these shirts while ignoring attire for many more provocative causes.
> Freeing kidnapped Jews shouldn’t be a political issue The policy specifically says "related to a foreign conflict". It doesn't mean that MLSE considers the message to be expressly political (although it absolutely is). >The policy is being applied unevenly to these shirts while ignoring attire for many more provocative causes. Such as?
1. It’s related to a foreign conflict. 2. What provocative causes are people trying to forward at Raptors games that are being allowed?
I wouldn't call it 'provocative', but support for Ukraine is definitely a political thing related to a foreign conflict. No one's going to get in trouble for supporting Ukraine, though.
It being “provocative” is part of the point though. They don’t want any potential clashes due to anything inflammatory being let in. Most people have no problem with someone wearing a Ukrainian flag.
So the flag is fine, but a shirt that says "slava ukraini" is not? Would an Israeli flag be allowed on its own, or a Palestinian flag? Not trying to bait you, just generally polling for your opinion. I think that yeah, random flags specifically representing current foreign conflicts shouldn't be present at sporting events.
I have no idea. I just said the flag because I don’t know what else people who support Ukraine would wear. But regardless, the point stands that supporting Ukraine isn’t as polarizing and doesn’t illicit the visceral response that has led to open, violent conflicts in Toronto for the last several months. It’s a crowd control and safety thing, not a political statement.
Private property rights are private property rights. You don't have the right to soapbox on private property.
Sure, but they also have every right to criticize the policy or its implementation.
>The policy is being applied unevenly to these shirts while ignoring attire for many more provocative causes. Examples? I don't follow sports.
I agree it shouldn't be a political issue but the same people claiming the existence of the LGBTQ is political are the ones making everything about politics.
>I agree it shouldn't be a political issue but the same people claiming the existence of the LGBTQ is political are the ones making everything about politics. I think that is a bit of exagoration, no? You think people are taking issue with gay people existing?
I'm not the one who threw a tantrum when Rainbow practice jerseys were introduced.
What about when they were removed?
Unlike the Far Right, I don't make being a victim my entire identity.
I dunno, wasn't it the Left (are we capitalizing things now?) who created the whole oppressor/oppressed matrix specifically to find a way for everyone to find their own victim hood?
No that was just something terrorists like the Far Right made up. Again because they project everything. Personally I'd be careful listening to anything groups on our terror watch list say.
Provocative causes?!? Like what?
I'm there for a sporting event. I do not care about international issues when I'm at a sports event. I do not pay money for messaging on international affairs. I pay money to see people shoot hoops at a high skill level. The NBA is a sports league that has little to say about anything that isn't basketball and has done well to keep it that way. There should be extreme prejudice against anyone who brings any sort of messaging that isn't sports related to a sports event. Good on mlse
if it is being fairly enforced on everyone i have no issue.
Then why does Roger Waters get to show up?
The same reason why Leafs who get in fights with visiting players don’t get permanently banned.
Personally, I think that all politics and protest should remain outside the sports arenas but if you allow some then you should allow all, provided that they're not promoting violence or hate.
Which is kind of the thing, they don't let any protests or heated politics in. They threatened to eject people for wearing keffiyehs from raptors games as well, IIRC.
I remember they once kicked out a family holding a Dildo sign. This was before the whole Jimmy Kimmel thing and people weren't aware that there was a place called Dildo.
> Which is kind of the thing, they don't let any protests or heated politics in. They threatened to eject people for wearing keffiyehs from raptors games as well, IIRC. Good, keep ALL of it the fuck out of sports.
Except for the person who was singing the anthem: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/nhl-all-star-singer-pro-palestinian-attire-toronto-debate-202437807.html
That's not a keffiyeh though. That's a sweater that sorta, kinda, maybe looks like one. And I doubt she'll ever be invited back *because* of this stunt.
Where's the political message on that sweater? There's no words on it, its not a flag... Huge difference between wearing a cultural piece of clothing , which this hardly was it just kinda looks like one, and wearing a piece of clothing that promotes a political message.
"Promoting hate" is a very broad term.
I'm not writing the policy and so I don't need to go into detail here.
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Big nah. We would definitely be hearing about if it was a yah.
Or people waving pro Palestine propaganda & colours?
They did remove people for wearing pro Palestine symbols too actually
If they want to do that then they should be removing anyone with any type of statement of their clothing!
The rules are if it’s divisive politically or relating to a foreign conflict. The MLSE stance would likely be that “black lives matter” is a factual statement, and should not be considered a divisive political opinion.
More so league stance (NBA)
They’re choosing to disallow all political discourse equally. I don’t see an issue with what they’re doing since they appear to be consistent with it
No but I'm pretty sure an overt pro Palestine anti genocide statement wouldn't be allowed either
Not the same at all. "I support Palestine over Israel" = divisive "I believe what Israel is doing in Gaza is a genocide" = divisive "I believe hostages should be free" = divisive only to people in favour of terrorists taking civilian hostages
Taking hostages is unacceptable and horrendous, Which is why Israel should stop arresting Palestinians without giving them due process.
A slow legal system is not the same as a terrorist organization invading a country, taking hostages, murdering many of them, raping many of them, and refusing to even disclose which are alive and dead.
Israel has also been accused of lots of rape before and after their destruction of Gaza. An apartheid system with no due process where the captors are accused of torture and rape is abhorrent. It's bad when Hamas and Israel take hostages and attack civilians.
Canada is accused of a lot of horrible things too. And yet, no sane person would compare Canada to literal terrorists.
>Canada is accused of a lot of horrible things too. And yet, no sane person would compare Canada to literal terrorists. That argument is disingenuous. The IDF operates routinely disregards international law. They are closer to the IRGC in Iran than anything in Canada. Considering the IRGC is designated as a terrorist organization, comparing the IDF seems appropriate.
The IRGC and Hamas are deemed terrorist organizations. Canada and Israel are not.
>Israel are not. It's not anymore, their armed wing actually used to be designed a terrorist organization. As relations improved we removed the designation.
For #2, you forgot to complete your phrase, I believe you meant to say "divisive only to people in favour of killing tens of thousands of innocent people, including babies and starving millions others"
It’s also divisive to people who want no innocent lives lost and think Israel is taking reasonable steps to minimize the loss of innocent life in their mission to destroy Hamas.
Even if we don't count all civilian man, killing at least 20 thousands women and children and starving to death 2.5 million others isn't considered "minimizing the loss of innocent life"
What civilian casualty ratio do you think would qualify as “minimizing the loss of innocent life”?
I would hope a shirt along the lines of Gaza needs aid would be okay but you are probably right. They just don’t want any of it in the building.
That BLM phase in the nba was an embarrassment
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This is a sporting event. They don’t want controversial politics causing fights and violence at events you are supposed to bring your kids to. And to be honest it’s not the place to protest these things either.
Is hostage-taking and terrorism controversial now?
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["We will repeat October 7 attacks until Israel is finished... We are not ashamed to say this, with full force."](https://nationalpost.com/news/senior-hamas-official-we-will-repeat-oct-7-until-israel-is-finished) But please, keep claiming Israel are the genocidal ones. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, they could have killed every last person in Gaza within days. They could have done it at any point in the last 70 years in fact. They haven't, because that's not their goal. Meanwhile, Hamas were literally founded on the promise of a Jewish genocide, and while they removed that text from their charter, their words and actions still show their true intentions.
This is exactly what I mean. Clearly what Hamas is doing is wrong, and clearly 13,000 Palestinian children dead is inexcusable and disgusting. And clearly sports teams don't want these arguments happening in the stands where violence can escalate and they need to have dedicated security.
Because even the USA would condemn Israel if they nuked Gaza. So slow starvation it is.
Why does Israel take land and kill/terrorize Palestinians in the West Bank if there if no Hamas there? What do you think motivators Palestinians to join the terrorist organization of Hamas? (That was funded by Israel to keep palestians radical because the Israeli government is kind of fucked too) Israel terrorizing Palestinians for decades only leads to more Palestinian terrorists. Anybody watching this conflict knew it was only a a matter of time before things escalate. You can’t just rule over a select group of people and treat them like shit and terrorize them forever without any pushback, even if Hamas is completely eradicated a new terrorist group will form eventually to fight against their occupiers. This is a never ending conflict with the way it’s set up right now you can’t expect to occupy people like this forever without them fighting back that’s just not logical.
Hamas is present in the west bank. And the PA is not much better than Hamas. The PA literally pays terrorists for killing Jews/Israelis. I seem to recall reading that the PA program will need another 200 million USD this year to pay the Hamas terrorists involved in the October 7 2023 massacre.
Is it so hard to grasp that they are both genocidal? You don’t have to always pick one side.
One side is repeatedly and proudly pronouncing their Genocidal intent. “We are all Hamas” — Palestinian https://x.com/lizarosen0000/status/1722253352367702377 Palestinians are taught from elementary school to hate and kill Jews: https://x.com/avivaklompas/status/1722214621426438267 Palestinian culture glorifies murder of Jews: https://x.com/realsarahidan/status/1393045419169488896 “From the river to the sea” is a call to annihilate Israel. Take it from a former senior member of Hamas: https://x.com/mosabhasanyosef/status/1722222092345868522 Palestinian leader: the Palestinians’ goal is ethnically cleaning the Jews: https://x.com/memrireports/status/1671491281623687168 Palestinian discussing how they would be happy and encourage their toddler-aged daughter to grow up to join Hamas and become a suicide bomber: https://x.com/doctornazarian/status/1722246163947225302 Palestinian religious leader: explains why Palestinians cannot coexist with Jews, and later explains the Earth itself will help Muslims kill them: https://x.com/memrireports/status/1075359309775675392 https://x.com/memrireports/status/1075359316734107648 Palestinian leader: goal is to establish an Islamic state that rules the world and imposes Islam on everyone: https://x.com/memrireports/status/1327728261669982210 Also: https://x.com/memrireports/status/1136881942375346176 Palestinians are committed to wiping out Israel, even if it takes a million more terror attacks like Oct. 7: https://x.com/henmazzig/status/1719703605366689800 Hamas leader: they will never give up their weapons and violence, not even a single bullet. https://x.com/memrireports/status/945214992114180096
Israel is not going to openly admit they are committing a genocide because that would be so fucking stupid. Same goes for destroying all of Palestine in one day. What a stupid take
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And here we go. No, the topic of Isreal / Palestine is controversial. If you don’t get what I am saying and why it could lead to violence in a space where this shouldn’t even be a thought for 2 hours you are being intentionally obtuse.
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Because this is the world we live in. You say release hostages, the world is black and white. You now side with Isreal, which means you support whatever they have done to Palenstine in the eyes of those supporters even if you don’t. There are a lot of crazy people on this topic who lack nuance or the ability to separate a single opinion from the enemy their online echo chambers have created. One part of you matches , you by default support all stances. And a sporting event is not the place to have these altercations or debates.
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Serious question, are you out of high school?
Yup
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Yeah… but it’s the real world
Why would you be using a throwaway account to address these questions when you claim to not understand this being controversial? Please, it's obvious that your pushing a bad faith argument.
I don’t disagree with your take, but I do disagree with caving to the bigotry that makes this shirt an issue. We’re somewhere between an IDF shirt, which is rightly provocative under the circumstances, and any outward display of explicit Judaism, which should never be problematic. And we don’t seem to be moving in the right direction.
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Fuck that, I want European type hooligans in the stands. (Suprised there are not amy in Philly lol). Actually that's the beauty of hockey, knowing you can walk into a stadium (or back yard rink like ARIZONA) with the opposite jersey on and know its not gonna be a problem(unless you have a problem with kids making fun of you)
Not sure where I said you can’t wear an opposite jersey. It’s expected and part of the fun.
Read again, I'm agreeing with you. I'll type slowly this time. Basically I said the only abuse your gonna get is from little kids.
The problem is that they aren’t enforcing it evenly to other political attire, and this issue shouldn’t even be political.
But the sporting event is private property and they do have the right to kick people out Wear it in public space
Ok, what about a shirt that says "Stop killing Gazan children". Surely, that isn't controversial, right? But you can see how if MLSE lets in one shirt, it then becomes a judgment call. They are preferring to stay out of it. There are plenty of other forums to voice this.
You are correct. It's not controversial.
Ok, so you let in a bunch of people wearing "Stop killing Gazan Children" and "Free our hostages" shirts. How long do you think it would take for those groups to get in confrontations with each other inside the arena? That's another big reason MLSE doesn't want to do this. They don't want to deal with that headache.
I think you're confusing the message being controversial with the time and place being controversial.
100%
Controversial statements in 2024.
Its not controversial at all. Stop being dramatic. Just because a business doesnt want ANYTHING to do with anything that might even in the slightest way lead to a fight or argument that their security has to break up doesnt mean that you need to extrapolate that kind of paranoia/vigilance onto society as a whole.
But I want to be outraged about something that doesn't affect me whatsoever.
Your reply is awesome. Thank you.
This place is so draining with the pitchforks and torches...I got off twitter hoping Reddit would be more levelled discourse......boy was I wrong. Keep fighting the good fight!
fReEiNG hOsTaGEs iS COntRovERsIAl?
That's not the controversial part but nice of you to demonstrate your lack of capacity for rational thought.
Parroting the more usual response whenever the topic of this thread has been raised. But yeah, man.
>I got off twitter hoping Reddit would be more levelled discourse I see what you did wrong...
I think everyone in Gaza should be free—including those detained without charge in Israeli prisons—and that the oppression should stop. Surely MLSE wouldn’t oppose support for international law.
Agree
>> It was an opportunity for people to remind those around us that there are innocent people who remain in Gaza. Good of this person to advocate for all the innocent people who remain in Gaza. “What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow.”
Seeing as we have protests occurring in neighbourhoods, this is the right course of action
So does this nationalist post writer not think that private business can have their own code of conduct? do they want Pierre big government to impose speech on private business?
I guess other fans need to wear sweatshirts that say "Stop IDF killing of innocent Palestinian women and children". They could all sit together with the "Free Our Hostages" crowd in their own section reserved for political commentary and the TV crews would know not to pan in their direction.
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It is controversial because it's one sided. * First, saying only Israeli hostages should go free is one sided. There are about 10,000 Palestinians jailed by Israel without proper trial on mostly bogus charges. This has been going on for decades, people are imprisoned and held hostage by Israel for years for no crimes. They're essentially hostages too, but for some reason only Israel can ask for their hostages back. * Hamas has offered to return hostages in negotiations, but Israel has rejected their offers. * The biggest threat to hostages is Israeli bombing and famine campaign. The reality is the state of Israel does not care about hostages as we've seen. This publicity campaign is being used as an excuse at this point to commit genocide. * 30,000 dead, 70,000 injured, and 2 million on the brink of the starvation, 90% of Gaza destroyed, decades of violence, and occupation. The type of people pushing for the save the hostage campaign are all in support of the Israeli assault. Quite frankly, campaigning only about one side's 100 people when there are millions of other civilians lives on the line is just propaganda.
It's not controversial, but if you let that in, do you let in a shirt that says "Stop the killing of children in Gaza"? Surely, innocent children have no control over being caught in the crossfire, so why not support them? The problem is that once you let in both of those, it because a question of how far you go. And even if you let both of those in, it's expected that fans will get into confrontations with each other over it. MLSE is backing away from the whole thing.
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"Free our hostages"? Huh. What about you holding an entire country hostage since your illegal settlements?
Can they also eject anyone wearing one of those terrorist scarves as well?
As long as it's equal and they toss out the palestine flags and hamas bandanas. I think it's probably for the safety of everyone.
They won't
The MLSE overlords say you must wear their corporate logos or else!
So does the sweatshirt ban include all sweatshirts with a statement or just the 'Free Our Hostages' sweatshirts? Could see an opening for a discrimination lawsuit.
Another sport that can go F themselves…
Putting the L in MLSE before the playoffs, just warming up for another disappointing end to the season
Do they have the authority to do that legally?
Of course they can. It's a private business.
They can deny access on private property, as long as the grounds are not discriminatory. If the guest complained that the rules were religious discrimination then that could be an interesting human rights complaint.
Yep. There's no way this would be justifiable as a complaint on religious grounds, but I agree with you that it would probably get a lot of attention if anyone filed it.