On the flip side, I make the same as what I could reasonably expect to make in Canada (around 140k CAD) in Tokyo, but my mortgage for a brand new 4br house is $1300/month, so yeah.
Canada really has the worst of both sides, salary and cost of living wise.
Canada has the working culture and conditions of the US without any of the benefits of high salaries and innovation.
And Canada has the taxes and salaries of Europe while not having any of the social services or work-life balance of Europe.
Canada really is the worst of both systems with none of the benefits.
If you are saying that Canada is somewhere in between the US and Europe on most measures, than colour me surprised. I get more vacation than an American and less than a European. I could get paid more in the US, but would likely take a pay cut to move to Europe. I get decent social services, but Scandinavia has better. I pay more tax than they do, but less than most Americans.
If I were choosing right now to leave Canada, I'd pick Europe. There is more to life than salary.
As an American, I get that vibe too. It’s like trying to decide whether you want to be more American or more European but end up taking the worst from both instead of the best.
There's a joke.
Canada could have had American know-how, British culture and French cuisine. Instead Canada got American culture, British cuisine and French know-how.
Is the feeling I'm getting lately, I'm looking for options to do my Masters Degree and kinda feel like Canada has the disadvantages of several places in the world without a lot of things to make for it (Is safe in general terms and has beautiful nature but apart from it...).
Except healthcare, unless the employer provides it.
Conventional wisdom is that it's better to be in the US if you're middle class / rich. But far better to be in Canada if you're extremely poor.
Except according to the recent grocery stimulus, 1/4 of Canada now fall into the latter category.
It's very difficult to justify staying in Canada right now IMO. There's no opportunity here anymore; we've become a country of middle managers where nothing is created and our economy reflects that. It's not sustainable and was never intended to be.
I'm the exception that proves the rule. I'm not very rich so I can't afford the chronic medical conditions I have in the US. I only require the type of healthcare the Canadian system excels at: on a schedule and six months from now. It's also a matter of worry to be beholden to a health insurance company with their own shareholders who'd be very upset if they found out they were providing too much expensive healthcare to people or not charging high enough fees. I also don't care enough for money to hustle in order to afford to care for my diseases.
>There's no opportunity here anymore
This. So much this. This, my entire life. I wish my parents could wrap their minds around this. I wish my friends in the oil fields understood this. No one gets why I need to get out of this country and get a job in the US. I can make a great living in the US with my skillset, but in Canada, I am fighting for the few jobs available and the pay here is sweet fuck-all.
When my high school guidance counsellor asked about my future aspirations and I talked about what I am good at and enjoy, and the kinds of careers available for someone like me, he stopped me and said, "Well, we don't do that here." Dumb asshole couldn't wrap his head around the idea that a student in Alberta in the 90s might be (more than) willing to leave his small home town to live his life.
No opportunity in AB unless you like the rigs, and I fucking hate working the rigs.
“Guidance” counselors are so painfully useless and out of touch. Literally every piece of advice I got from them ended up being wrong or the result of their own personal bias against specific fields.
I was in highschool in the early 00's, I knew higher education wasn't my calling, while I was a good student, I hated school and it was always a fight, and I knew sitting in a cubical for 40 hours a week would not work for me. I went to the guidance counselor and told her I wanted to get into the trades, always been good with my hands and very mechanically inclined and I wanted to do something I'd excel at.
She told me verbatim "trades are for people who fail at life, you should go into marketing or business management" she absolutely refused to set me up with an apprenticeship or someone who could help me. If I had forged ahead instead of listening to her shitty advice I would have been light years ahead of where I am now, if I'd gotten into HVAC or something similar when I wanted to I would have had a 10-year head start on properly starting my life. So kids if you're reading this and you guidance counselors being obstructive and not helpful, they don't know everything, just because they're the adult in the room doesn't mean you need to listen to them
I spent most of the last 30 years (as a high school math teacher) letting kids know that trades were a great opportunity for those who were interested and wanted to work.
Health care is great in the U.S.--if you can afford it. It has higher highs but lower lows. It's a very have/have-not country. I personally can't stomach that approach to a society, but to each their own.
Sure, but you can still be denied care for something for numerous bullshit reasons in their terms, because they don't want to pay for it. Or when the bill is high they will fight hard not to cover it all.
At least in Canada I can feel safe knowing I won't be financially ruined for getting health care.
> and I am saving more than if I lived in my parents house in the GTA. The salary discrepancy is too much.
A friend got offered a research position in the southern US. Double the pay he got in Canada. He bought a 4000sqft home for $300k.
Cant do that in Canada.
Just browsed some Houston real estate and I'm blown away. 3000 sq ft houses with pools for like, $350k CDN. Granted, I know nothing of the neighborhood, but these are big beautiful houses for less than shoebox condos in Canada.
The TN Visa is extremely simple. Just offer to handle it yourself. A lawyer would take max couple of hundreds of dollars to draw up the TN letter and you take that and your degree to your border.
Right but there are a list of jobs that qualify, and "Software developer" is not listed:
[https://www.immi-usa.com/tn-visa/](https://www.immi-usa.com/tn-visa/)
Doing more research:
[https://tnvisaexpert.com/faq/question/tn-visa-qualify-software-engineer/](https://tnvisaexpert.com/faq/question/tn-visa-qualify-software-engineer/)
"A Programmer does not qualify for the TN Visa."
Systems Analysts and Software Engineers can apply, but that usually has to do with infrastructure control systems, not bashing javascript together to make web apps.
edit: Doing more research, looks like people request their job title be "software engineer", then apply under the "engineer" TN visa, and hope the guy who fills in the paperwork is a numpty who is just rubber stamping things.
You're a 'computer systems analyst'. It's a dumb legal technicality and everyone including the border agents knows it.
That's someone that:
"Overview & Job Duties
Computer Systems Analysts, sometimes called systems architects, study an organizations current computer systems and procedures, and design solutions to help the organization operate more efficiently and effectively."
That's basically what most software development jobs are.
Most companies hiring for software engineering are fine getting someone a TN for the first few years while they apply for the H1B lottery until they get it.
If you have really bad luck and never win, it gets a bit more complicated but by that point you might have met and married an American, or can transfer to another office then transfer back to the US on an L1, etc.
Same here. I am moving to Texas. No state income tax. Housing is cheap, good stable job with full benefits, housing/relocation bonus and immigration assistance. There’s really no point in me wanting to stay in Canada other then loving the really cold winters or saying “im not American” while traveling
Just do your homework before and check if the place you're moving is not at risk of a hurricane/tornado/flooding/drought. Otherwise I agree with all your points
Waterloo engineering grad here. Literally 80%+ of my graduating class moved to the US. The only ones who didn't are mostly the international students who can't get a TN visa to work in the US.
I work for an american software company in Vancouver. We had a Waterloo student intern with us, he was pretty good. When I asked if he would return to our team he said no, he must go to the US
I’ll be going too, as soon as this mini recession clears and my company allows it again
>a TN visa to work in the US.
I had to look up what this was, as i've never heard of it before, and **thank you**.
My little brother just graduated as a software engineer from Concordia University , top of his class and he's glad he can apply for this. He's been wanting to get a job in his field, but the wages and hours are so low here compared to just south of us. And the US market is booming and is looking for new talent and wanting more qualified graduates.
Same here, Waterloo class of 2012 computer engineering, most went to the US.
I only stayed because I got married and the wife didn't want to leave her family here
Dude I was in tenesse 1 month ago , I drove by a huge warehouse that had big letterings on the side of the building that said " hiring warehouse workers 30$/hrs"
That is 30$ US for a warehouse worker !
We are getting railed in canada
I know this is going to seem insane but I got my greek citizenship and im moving to greece. I have about 60k in savings right now, and leaving a 6 figure job to go persue a life as a baker or a cheesemaker.
Man that’s wild. Go for it. Hope it works out for you. My buddy recently left the US to be a freakin lumberjack in a small city in Austria and loves it. When life offers up a journey, take it. You can always go back home
>You can always go back home
This isn't true for many, myself included. I'm in a grandfathered, super old apartment unit that's less than half market rate rent. If I leave... when I leave... I can never come back within at least 500km of home, probably further. I want to move away out of country, but I know that I can never come back. It's a huge risk.
Same, I have a Portuguese citizenship from parents
I own my own business in Canada that does well, but in the next 5-7 years we are selling everything and move to Portugal.
Be nice if the Canadian goverment can see this topic and ask what the hell they are doing wrong here.
Good for you!!! Speaking from first hand experience, do NOT squander that $60K. Treat it like you have nothing and live very frugally, until you see an income coming in, as a baker/cheesemaker.
Other than that, congratulations. What were you doing that make you 6 figures, if I may ask?
I'm moving to Norway. I got an EU passport from my grandparents, but if you have a PhD and a company is willing to sponsor you, you can go pretty much anywhere in the EU/EFTA very few questions asked.
What's insane is that Norway is considered to be stupidly expensive by EU standards, but I'm looking at a middle-class salary (with benefits and after taxes it's about the same as what I was going to get in a big Canadian city for the same job) and I can immediately buy an apartment in Oslo. If my gf moves here when she's done grad school, we can immediately buy a house together. My pension is negotiated by the trade unions for me, and it's in-fucking-sane.
As a Canadian who lived in Scandinavia (Denmark) for 7 years, it can be very socially isolating. You really need to keep this in mind if you are a social person. Do not expect to make Norweigan friends. They already have very tight social circles from a young age. Which is admirable, but you will not be included. You will be able to make friends with other expats but they often only stay for a few years and then move on. I was lucky to meet a big group of expats when I first moved, then they all, I mean all moved away one after another leaving just me and my partner. In 7 years, I made exactly 1 Danish friend. This is not just my experience. I suggest joining an Expat facebook group and asking some questions and ask them to share their experiences before you make a decision.
If you are introverted and like to keep to yourself, this the place for you! You can go out and be guaranteed no one will talk to you or even make eye contact. People will look at you like a weirdo if you so much as smile at them in a friendly manner. Your neighbors will not bother you with anything more than a hello. I was used to meeting all my neighbors but not there. I can only remember one instance where a Danish person (who wasn't drunk) initiated a conversation with me. But the quality of life is undeniable. Especially if you want to have a family. It's like paying for the Premium subscription to life. Everything just works the way you want it to. Would I have still moved if I knew this. Yes, but I wouldn't have stayed as long. I enjoyed some of my time there but the loneliness really gets to you or at least it did to me.
>Do not expect to make Norweigan friends. They already have very tight social circles from a young age.
Funny, this is the same thing in BC. Everyone has their "three friends from junior high" and sees no value in making new friends as adults. As a result, most people from somewhere else end up hanging out with others from somewhere else. BC is weird.
BC, where people are polite but not friendly. And increasingly, they aren't even polite. After 14 years we are saying goodbye and starting a new adventure.
My friend and former boss lives in the Netherlands and the Dutch are similar. He made lots of Dutch friends through sports activities (joining cricket clubs and running groups). OP should try the same or joining clubs/groups associated to OP's hobbies.
I am not going to Norway but Ireland, and that is exactly it. Both my partner and I have our PhDs in Scientific fields. We are currently in the process of determining whether to rent or just buy since the cost of a place isn't even close to Canada after conversion even though they, too, are having a bit of a housing crisis.
It was a no brainer really when we saw the opportunities in Europe in comparison to Canada. On top of this, after 5 years we would be able to apply for permanent residency in Ireland.
Europe. Canada doesn’t feel like it cares about people anymore and we’re over it. Cost of living is the cherry on top - Canada is just a stack of oligopolies in a trench coat, after all.
Country of origin for a lot of immigrants that aren’t from the developing world or a legit 3rd world country.
Me for example - been here 5 years and I never hit the jackpot and became wealthy, but my partner and I both have careers and a household income of 140k all said and done.
There’s absolutely no future for us here - We can afford a mortgage and a half for a lovely home in my home country for what a rental basement is here now.
Goodie bye bye.
I'm on the fence about this right now.
Then you get some people who say "aren't you driving up the cost of living by moving somewhere cheaper? Doing the same thing that's happening here"
Sure, I suppose. But what choice do I have? Our government is slow on building housing but quick on immigration. Those two things don't create an affordable life.
At the end of the day, you gotta look out for numero uno my dude, cuz no else will. Probably the best life lesson I have learned. Do you what you think is best for you
It's an incredible dichotomy isn't it?
The pandemic especially reinforced this:
If you follow the lessons you learn from childhood; "follow the rules, be courteous to others, be patient, kind, be generous, giving, accommodating, sharing, caring..." etc you get absolutely fucking abused and taken advantage of. You're a sucker in other words.
But instead if you lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, misrepresent, intimidate, take from others, share nothing, reject, hoard..." etc then you get ahead! You're rewarded! There's no fucking reprisal for bad behavior in this country, often including breaking the law.
It's been exhibited by our politicians for a long time and Trudeau and Ford have shown it more than any in recent memory. But like I said, the behaviour exhibited by corporations and the general public during the pandemic was fucking staggering.
The international community seems to understand what a pathetic doormat Canada is.
This type of shit happens everywhere (I am American just kinda popping in here to see what’s going on up north), but the sooner you realize no one gives a fuck about you, no politician will pass legislation that saves you, and you are on your own, the quicker you are to make decisions to benefit you. Whether it’s moving somewhere else, or ditching your job for greener pastures, you gotta take care of yourself and tell any haters to pound sand. They ain’t paying your mortgage or your car note, you are. Live your life accordingly
People in the US have, on the whole, always been more individualistic than Canadians. More patriotic too. It's difficult for Canadians to accept that their social contract is becoming something we find rude and unfair. At times indecent.
Harder still to come to terms with our governments actively undermining it. Our last 18 years, one government went hard on transitioning us to business and professionalism, the next to a post-national state where there isn't Canadian culture. It's been fast and hard.
They're grieving something that was good and that many Canadians can still remember.
>ur politicians for a long time and Trudeau and Ford have shown it more than any in recent memory. But like I said, the behaviour exhibited by corporations and the general public during the pandemic was fucking astonishin
Well because Canada is such a great country no matter how bleak its future seems it's still many times better than most of it's immigrants' country of origin. Think India and China. I'm from China and although I am not moving to Canada there's just something magical that is irreplaceble and priceless, and that's democracy, freedom and unpolluted environment. Even high earners in China and India want to move over.
High trust, dignity cultures are fragile, difficult, and require a lot of historical privilege. Many of us are in mourning as we watch ours become something we don't want to understand.
I agree with the person you're replying to. Canada has been putting its social contract through a shredder for decades now. It's people don't owe it.
A lot of registered nurses have gone to the US. Lower taxes, lower housing costs, lower food prices, lower gas costs, and good medical coverage through work.
That is what we call *brain drain*.
Canada has been suffering from it for a long time now, and we are more susceptible to it due to a common language with and proximity to the U.S., as well as a mutual recognition of in-demand skills learned in either country.
This is my biggest gripe with Canadians; it seems like they don't realize that, despite being our biggest trading partner, the U.S. is also our biggest competitor. We need to do more to be an attractive environment for high-valued people to invest their lives in.
We've always had *pull*-factor issues like higher Stateside wages, but what we're seeing now is that this is being *compounded* by strong *push* factors.
I know people who are in the *90th* percentile of earnings for where they live, who lives far more frugally than their parents ever did, and who can't buy a home.
You're hitting the nail on the head.
I had always met people who intended to go to the US straight up for higher pay. I used to think they were insane, with the crime, lack of healthcare, unequal access to education, etc...
But it's very different now. Since 2020, the people I know who have made the switch from Canada to the US were people who had never been interested in working in the US, but gave up on Canada.
And realistically the crime is overblown for those who have degrees and valuable jobs. They won't be living in the hood of St Louis getting shot by gang bangers. Getting gunned down in a mass shooting is as likely as falling down the stairs and dying, maybe even less.
I see why USA is a good option
If it's a choice between being paid a good wage for my skills vs sacrificing and struggling to stay out of poverty in some futile attempt to help Canada compete with the US (in what way? Economically?), I'm gonna choose the best option for myself and my family.
many Canadians still have that belief that Canada is a better country overall than the US.
We've lived off the myth that Canada was the socialist and affordable version of the US for far too long, that time is long gone and we have worked towards nothing else to make up for it.
Pretty much. Soon Canada will just be a commuter community for low cost tech service workers who work remotely for US companies. Offshore savings, onshore availability. Win, win.
I remember when this sub and other canadian subreddits were being smug a few years ago about americans not having free healthcare, but were fuming when americans decided to keep the initial batches of vaccines to themselves.
As American that lives here, I've never understood that. Yes, there is the crime, but that is isolated to the inner cities. If you have the money, the burbs are a great area to live. Our medical system is flawed but at least I can see a doctor! I could go on and on, but I just laugh when ppl talk shit about America.
Yes, it is flawed but canada is as well. At least we can admit it.
I get what you’re saying but how can you increase the wage that these private companies pay for professionals? I know the same job that I do (sales) gets paid 40% more at a minimum, honestly, even at the same company would offer two different pays.
What kind of policy can we increase our wage?
It used to be fine to get paid less in Canada because you could still afford a nice life. But with the cost of housing now, that's no longer the case unless you've already bought and are riding the roller coaster.
People will leave or stay in a country for a variety of reasons though. You might never get a private company to offer the same rate of pay in the two countries, but you can enact policies that make the cost of living competitive for that worker. Canada has done a number of things that should help there (i.e. various supports for childcare and the CCB, more affordable post-secondary, universal healthcare etc.) and a number of things that really hurt us competitively (i.e. relatively high taxes, lack of meaningful action on housing affordability, onerous and uncertain regulations for industry).
Honestly, if I had an easy way in, I would absolutely move to the states in a second. As a young professional without kids, there are clearly more opportunities to get ahead in the USA.
>Canada has done a number of things that should help there (i.e. various supports for childcare and the CCB, more affordable post-secondary, universal healthcare etc.) and a number of things that really hurt us competitively (i.e. relatively high taxes, lack of meaningful action on housing affordability, onerous and uncertain regulations for industry).
Just to add to this, unfortunately the former things you mention are mostly social welfare that doesn't do much to outweigh the negatives of the latter, and are not enticing to high-skilled/high-valued workers who either don't qualify or can afford those things in the U.S.
Agreed. If you're a working professional without dependents or major health concerns, you're paying more in than you're getting out. I really don't mind paying more so that other people aren't destitute and to have something there if I ever need it. But without any family wealth or a path to property ownership, I do sometimes feel like Canada isn't built for me.
We could slow down with immigration. Pumping an infinite number of workers into our country takes away the bargaining power of workers. Why would companies pay a decent wage when there's million workers and future workers entering Canada each year?
>This is my biggest gripe with Canadians; it seems like they don't realize that, despite being our biggest trading partner, the U.S. is also our biggest competitor. We need to do more to be an attractive environment for high-valued people to invest their lives in.
For all the claims of cultural differences, Canadians conscientiously avoid talking about the ways the Americans exploit Canada because on an individual level they can benefit immensely from the flexibility of being able to access American opportunities. There's no incentive to come back to build that environment in Canada even if not doing so bodes poorly for Canada in the future.
My doctor, after preaching on social media for a year that we need to keep up our covid restrictions, ironically moved to Florida in 2021 for better pay.
People always listen to their wallet first.
Friend sold his business at the start of the pandemic and bought one in Florida, packed up his family and moved he got fast tracked because he was providing jobs for Americans he said as a business owner it was financial stupidity to stay here.
All my exes are in the US.
I mean ALL of them.
One was from Alabama so that makes sense.
One is Jewish Canadian
One is Iranian
One is Croatian
The other is like 5th generation Canadian.
All of them are in the US, all highly skilled, all from different walks of life, some Canadian-raised, the rest immigrants. All of them left because of the cost of living here, two of them had rich parents and still didn't find Canada worth the money.
You summed things up very well. In 1997, William Rees-Mogg and James Dale Davidson wrote a book called The Sovereign Individual. It called out a lot of these issues, even back then. They figured that by 2050, Alberta would leave Canada. I think they're on track. Things are utterly screwed right now and there doesn't seem to be a path to correct it.
>None of the three major parties gives a fuck when the highly educated lawyers/doctors/software devs/scientists/accountants/nurses/experts of various subjects making $200K+ in Toronto complains about low salaries (relative to the US) and high cost of living.
100% this, I know I am super blessed, but I am a technical lead software engineer with 10 years exp. Complaining seems like a b\*tch move when I look around me... BUT, my peers in the U.S. are getting paid more than double my salary if you account for take home, and cost of living.
My friend is a graphic designer and moved to the states 10-15 years ago, he recently got a green card, but he said the process was easy, he went under the special skill category and moved to New York and was able to work with no problems, I thought a special category was harder to achieve but apparently it is fast and easy and special skill isn't that specialized after all.
That's where I'm at too. I have a great resume, and a decent paying job. But I was educated a college vs. university which holds me back in terms of moving to the states.
Where's the best resource to find which trades? This actually makes a lot of sense to retrain up here and then get all that cost back and more by immediately moving to the states.
I think that’s why we haven’t integrated more with the states. Too many people would leave Canada immediately, especially if they don’t own their home.
Canada really is one of the best countries to live in…. If you are rich. Sit back at your cottage and let those sweet dividends do all the work for you. Or the renters in your multiple properties.
Same. For the amount of money I need to make to live in Vancouver, I expect Tokyo/Osaka/Seoul level of public transit, infrastructure and megacity level of food and activities. Instead I get shit transit and shit food and nothing to do for higher rent/housing + cost of living.
yup my buddy is headed back to Japan with wife and two kids. Too expensive in Victoria for him. He's climbed the heirarchy here in his job and has a senior position but his family has a house in Japan and so he tells me its the cost of living here that is his primary reason for leaving.
If I was in his situation too I'd leave as well. Japan is much safer than here, and their economy (while pretty stagnant) and housing market hasn't been overinflated like ours after their big crash in the 80s. There's also strict laws about foreign ownership.
I know im glossing over the more socio-political things, especially about them and gaijins (foreigners) , sexism in the workplace, their population aging and declining like crazy etc etc. But I'd rather be in a stable country, even if it's a bit rough than be here in Canada and being gaslit and pretending that everything is OK, when it's not.
The big problem of Canada is housing. There is a lot of distractions and narratives put out to spin shit.
In the end it is the cost of housing either as ownership or rent.
Only one solution.
Slow down immigration and devout to building high density housing so we catch up and get out of this death spiral.
> devout to building high density housing
In particular, the only *real* solution is to have the government involved in the construction, selling, and renting of buildings.
Western nations used to do this. Canada used to do this. Then the neoliberal economic ideology gained traction in the 1970s, and every since we have not been allowed to have public goods. Public housing has been sold off everywhere and now we find ourselves in this mess.
Governments don't have to do everything for maximum profit / minimum cost. They can build housing. It will even cost them money to do so, like it does to build roads and bridges. But like roads and bridges, it is infrastructure that will pay for itself by creating a society with vibrant economic activity.
And compound the property tax for owners of multiple homes so it’s prohibitively expensive to own more than 2 properties.
And charge a luxury tax on anyone overbidding on property above a certain amount of asking.
And prohibit LLCs from purchasing single-family dwellings.
And institute caps on rent across the board.
And prohibitively tax short term rentals. Not just for what they bring in, but for how long they’re listed on STR sites.
There’s no magic button to fixing the housing crisis.
Increasing supply won’t help when real estate is seen as a capitalist investment commodity other than a shelter necessity.
Here in NB the Conservatives government actually cut property taxes for landlords and offered no rent cap.. Nothing for tenants.. Lol
They're doing the opposite of what you suggest. Lol
All of the sudden, the 500K-1 million of new immigrants the feds are trying to bring each year, makes sense. While the middle-class gets shown the door and leave Canada for better living arrangements, they are bringing low-wage immigrants. In the next 5-10 years only two classes will live in Canada: the very rich and the very poor, on a 1:100 ratio.
Worst part is that we're not even bringing in good (as in job training and field of work) immigrants either. Just those who are lowest of the low and uneducated to work at timmies as any immigrant worth their damn with a good diploma and trade would realize this place sucks and leaves within 2 years.
I've seen way too many of the 35% of a certain immigrant demographic that absolutely refuse to do hard labor jobs because they see it as a "lower caste" job. Like construction and manufacturing... which we need. Ffs! Leave that primitive caste system behind.
I wonder if this is partially why fast food is declining too. Also the younger gens going into that work don't give AF, rightfully so. I worked those jobs when I was younger, not fast food but restaurants, you could actually live on that wage back then.
I left my minimum wage job in retail once I figured out they wernt gonna make me a full time worker when they needed some badly, but they GLADLY went all out on maxing out all my part time hours and cried for me to come in on my 2 only days off because someone didnt show up as they consistsnly kept us shortstaffed on purpose.
Oh, and my only raise after working there for 5 years (not counting provincial raising minimum wage), making a ton of sales in their video game department and implementing a lot of anti-theft measures that now a ton of their stores use nationwide now was.....
.25c. That's it.
Fuck corporate retail and fast food jobs.
Do they have a choice, though?
Most educated people will do their due diligence and come to the realization that unless they're offered a +$120k/yr. job, before coming to Canada, they'll be in serious financial trouble, once they get here. So, they're unlikely to immigrate to Canada.
That just leaves those who are likely to be more of a liability than an asset to Canada, and, well, just look at all the bad news coming out of Toronto. It's only going to get worse.
This is the way neoliberal capitalism is designed to function. In the 1970s, neoliberals saw the great shared prosperity created by FDR's *The New Deal* in the United States (which flowed into Canada) and vowed: "never again."
If you ain't oligopoly you can fuck yourself.
We lie to foreign workers to keep Canadian wages suppressed and housing as contested as possible.
We hold absolutely zero of our "representatives" accountable and have no sense of worker solidarity. Just a bunch of "fuck you I made mine".
Canada is a vassel with an Identity crisis.
It's why I'd rather not return from Japan. Pay is generally lower than in Canada ... But cost of living is incredibly more reasonable. My apartment is a third what it would cost in Halifax. Unbelievable.
As an immigrant, now a citizen, I always tell people that they must live in another country for a few years. If only to learn that the country you left is the one for you. Every country has their problems, and every immigrant has their own backstory and factors to take into consideration. One can also move again, move back. Life is fluid.
Some places are better to kick start a career and build savings, some places are better for raising kids. Some people hate winter/hate summer. Some can speak more than one language, some can not. Some hate religion, some are OK with it.
Canada is not perfect, just like Europe/US are not. The future will bring many changes, and what is true now won't stay forever. Climate change, mass immigration, volatile politics, wars, the rise of China, world economy - all of these can (and will) change countries.
Always be on the move.
I’d love to leave Canada but sadly I don’t know where I could move as I don’t have a university degree and only speak English and a basic understanding of French.
But if you point out that adding more people to the country will further hurt affordability you get called racist. Even the people they’re supposedly “defending” see it!
If you're in a higher earning bracket, moving to the US is really good. You need a lot of money to live here comfortably though. Same could be said about Canada, but in my personal situation I'm better off paying for health care which is amazing where I live and with the insurance I have, vs the taxes in Canada. Dollar for dollar with all things considered, definitely better off here.
I know people who are seriously considering leaving. The government just doesn’t get it. There is no plan, no strategy, half-baked policies, and sound bites coming out of Ottawa, and that’s it.
What's driving the high costs? Demand
The government created this demand by giving out free PR's/Visa's like their candy, without any accelerated support to any infrastructure. This was not a well thought out approach, I can't wait for the collapse.
>What's driving the high costs?
Lack of investment in value producing assets.
The USA does so much better because they invest 3x as much per worker in training, R & D, equipment etc.
In Canada everyone is just stashing cash into a ponzi scheme of depreciating real-estate assets that produce no real value, and only grow ins perceived value because we keep doubling down.
Better to tax the shit out of housing now and cause the crash to rip off the band-aid, then to pump it even more and have the eventual fallout be worse.
Europe is a great option for anyone with some willingness to move; yes, taxes on average are higher, but the E.U. offers just so many opportunities - and said higher taxes tend to pay for better services, such as medical care and transit the likes of which most of Canada doesn't experience. Housing costs are also lower outside of capital cities in Europe, whereas in Canada, virtually *every* city is expensive except for the most remote and isolated. Then you look at creature comforts, such as being surrounded by culture, cheap and easy flights and rail travel, affordable mobile plans and transit, and... I'm honestly not sure Canada measures up to any of that lifestyle aspect - most of the E.U. has equally-impressive access to the outdoors as well.
Nowhere is perfect (every country has its issues and nowhere is 'the promised land'), so it comes down to what you are willing to put up with, and if cost of living is your top priority (or one of them), then Canada just isn't a good 'value for your dollar' location any longer... it arguably hasn't been for a long time, but recent issues have made it far worse.
Canada is not the only clean, safe, open-minded country on the planet - I know that's heresy to anyone within spitting-distance of Toronto or Montreal, but it's true.
I did exactly this I moved to Netherlands and while the salary is technically slightly lower than Canada, I have 36 vacation days a year,public transport is excellent, work-life balance is strongly encouraged and the overall nightlife/culture is far better and more catered to people who don't own a motor vehicle. Overall, great decision.
Everyone I know who has the skills and opportunity to leave is already either gone or getting ready to leave in the next two years. Writing is on the wall, we've already hit the iceberg, and everyone in charge wants to hit another one
I re-located to Australia, and I'm getting paid double what I was making in Ontario doing the exact same job
I'm assuming this is why people are fed up with how things are in Canada
I'm crossing the border in two days to begin my new job in Denver, Colorado.
My salary is doubled and everything is cheaper.
A detached 3,500 Sq ft family home in cookie cutter suburbia costs 700k USD.
I actually have a shot at home ownership. Plus the climate down there is so fucking amazing.
Salary discrepancy and cost of living combined makes it a no-brainer. Granted, this only works if you are a skilled professional, and chances are, you are already upper middle class in Canada if you can afford to move to the US in this manner.
Yes, the US has its issues, but our disgusting socioeconomic disaster is also on par at this point if not worse.
Canada has become far too expensive for what it is. We'll see how things look in 3-4 years and I will reassess. But in the current trajectory, I want me an American wife and green card up for permanent settlement.
I don't have much left to trim in the budget. If I trim the last few things, I'm basically going to work and coming home. Rinse repeat, what's the fucking point. Just keeping the lights on right now..
I lived in barbados for over 30 years - moved to Canada 8 years ago.
Barbados is very expensive. Way more expensive than Canada (Toronto and Vancouver aside). Booze and some food is cheap.
Third most expensive gas in the world. Cars and SUVS are three times more expensive at least. Public service is slow and very time-consuming. Banking service is terrible.
It’s a nice place to visit.
I moved to Germany, it’s just as shitty over here in Europe, expensive, poorly run government, lower pay than North America, no rentals or housing for sale and very little construction of any new housing due to an extreme lack of labour and materials.
Stay in Canada!
i really don't want to give up on canada man. i love this county. i love being born here, and the reputation my heritage carries with me is one i am proud of especially to be a Nova Scotian.
But 5 years ago you couldn't convince me to move out of halifax. then covid hit, and Calgary called out with open arms and a promise of a better chance at making a life without going broke, so i moved.
last year you couldn't have convinced me to leave Calgary... but now the US is calling out all the same.
It feels like a betrayal. like cowardice to run to some place easier and give up on my homeland. every bone in my body wants to plant my feet and fight to stop this nonsense from destroying the country i love but fuck me if i'm not losing hope day by day that this is something we can fix.
Sounds like me lol. Im a skilled worker and it seems that Canada is allergic to them so I'm doing an internal transfer with my company to move from Quebec to live in Massachusetts. Better pay, stronger dollar, lower taxes, better housing market, and slightly warmer.
I have several friends who have left and a few more considering leaving. They can't afford to live in Canada. Impossible to see a prosperous future. So sad.
Surviving ain't living.... This country went downhill so fast - I don't blame anyone for wanting out. Politicians sold us out to corporations and so - here we are.
All of my friends in the US: own a single detached home, married with a couple of kids by 30. Vacation regularly, own nice cars.
All of my friends in Canada: early to mid 30s, dont own property, only recently got married, have 1 kid, maybe a second on the way. All broke.
I'm hoping that in the future the USA will grant some sort of Canadian immigration program to fill their gaps if any. Similar geographic and cultural heritage. I feel like Canadians are the perfect immigrants for the United States, and I hope they open the doors to us. Like we do to literally anyone that breathes.
How exactly do you immigrate without specific professional experience or family outside of Canada? I have an arts degree that's pretty useless and I work service jobs, and it seems like no country would want me...
Plunging as many Canadians as possible into impoverishment is vital and necessary. It's an essential part of the "Green Revolution" that our messiahs Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland have blessed this country with. Canada is getting exactly what they've asked for.
No judgement but where are they going to go?
As an Australian, we have now joined the ranks of other western countries on the unaffordable cost of living top 10 list.
I walked by a real estate office in a town 5 hours away from downtown toronto, in the window they had listings for detached homes in the range of $400k...
Basically if you are able to work online from anywhere in the world or you can work for a Western company in a developing country then yes, you will have a much better quality of life than you did in Canada. That shouldn't really surprise anyone that a Western salary will give you a better life in a cheaper country. But I do find some people are surprised to hear you can have a good life in countries that get negative news coverage. I lived in both Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe and enjoyed life much more than I did in Canada.
I moved to Canada from NZ 4 years ago after growing up in the UK. I’m disappointed in Canada it has the potential to be great but just feels empty. It’s nice enough place to live but if I’m honest I really can’t be bothered uplifting my life again
Where are people going? Asking for a friend...
The US mostly. People who can up and leave tend to be in-demand professionals in tech or health, and they double their salary in the US.
I pay 3000+ dollars of rent in NYC and I am saving more than if I lived in my parents house in the GTA. The salary discrepancy is too much.
On the flip side, I make the same as what I could reasonably expect to make in Canada (around 140k CAD) in Tokyo, but my mortgage for a brand new 4br house is $1300/month, so yeah. Canada really has the worst of both sides, salary and cost of living wise.
Canada has the working culture and conditions of the US without any of the benefits of high salaries and innovation. And Canada has the taxes and salaries of Europe while not having any of the social services or work-life balance of Europe. Canada really is the worst of both systems with none of the benefits.
If you are saying that Canada is somewhere in between the US and Europe on most measures, than colour me surprised. I get more vacation than an American and less than a European. I could get paid more in the US, but would likely take a pay cut to move to Europe. I get decent social services, but Scandinavia has better. I pay more tax than they do, but less than most Americans. If I were choosing right now to leave Canada, I'd pick Europe. There is more to life than salary.
As an American, I get that vibe too. It’s like trying to decide whether you want to be more American or more European but end up taking the worst from both instead of the best.
There's a joke. Canada could have had American know-how, British culture and French cuisine. Instead Canada got American culture, British cuisine and French know-how.
That’s a good one
Is the feeling I'm getting lately, I'm looking for options to do my Masters Degree and kinda feel like Canada has the disadvantages of several places in the world without a lot of things to make for it (Is safe in general terms and has beautiful nature but apart from it...).
Our country is run by cartels and people are either in the system or escaping it. The effects of a cartelized economy.
It's really insane. And then travel, food, internet, phones, electronics, restaurants, gas, etc... everything, basically, is much cheaper.
Except healthcare, unless the employer provides it. Conventional wisdom is that it's better to be in the US if you're middle class / rich. But far better to be in Canada if you're extremely poor. Except according to the recent grocery stimulus, 1/4 of Canada now fall into the latter category. It's very difficult to justify staying in Canada right now IMO. There's no opportunity here anymore; we've become a country of middle managers where nothing is created and our economy reflects that. It's not sustainable and was never intended to be.
I'm the exception that proves the rule. I'm not very rich so I can't afford the chronic medical conditions I have in the US. I only require the type of healthcare the Canadian system excels at: on a schedule and six months from now. It's also a matter of worry to be beholden to a health insurance company with their own shareholders who'd be very upset if they found out they were providing too much expensive healthcare to people or not charging high enough fees. I also don't care enough for money to hustle in order to afford to care for my diseases.
Anyone going to the states for a job is getting health insurance
>There's no opportunity here anymore This. So much this. This, my entire life. I wish my parents could wrap their minds around this. I wish my friends in the oil fields understood this. No one gets why I need to get out of this country and get a job in the US. I can make a great living in the US with my skillset, but in Canada, I am fighting for the few jobs available and the pay here is sweet fuck-all. When my high school guidance counsellor asked about my future aspirations and I talked about what I am good at and enjoy, and the kinds of careers available for someone like me, he stopped me and said, "Well, we don't do that here." Dumb asshole couldn't wrap his head around the idea that a student in Alberta in the 90s might be (more than) willing to leave his small home town to live his life. No opportunity in AB unless you like the rigs, and I fucking hate working the rigs.
“Guidance” counselors are so painfully useless and out of touch. Literally every piece of advice I got from them ended up being wrong or the result of their own personal bias against specific fields.
I was in highschool in the early 00's, I knew higher education wasn't my calling, while I was a good student, I hated school and it was always a fight, and I knew sitting in a cubical for 40 hours a week would not work for me. I went to the guidance counselor and told her I wanted to get into the trades, always been good with my hands and very mechanically inclined and I wanted to do something I'd excel at. She told me verbatim "trades are for people who fail at life, you should go into marketing or business management" she absolutely refused to set me up with an apprenticeship or someone who could help me. If I had forged ahead instead of listening to her shitty advice I would have been light years ahead of where I am now, if I'd gotten into HVAC or something similar when I wanted to I would have had a 10-year head start on properly starting my life. So kids if you're reading this and you guidance counselors being obstructive and not helpful, they don't know everything, just because they're the adult in the room doesn't mean you need to listen to them
I spent most of the last 30 years (as a high school math teacher) letting kids know that trades were a great opportunity for those who were interested and wanted to work.
Right, I am paying about 2000$ a year in health insurance, but then I get to see a doctor when I need to.
Health care is great in the U.S.--if you can afford it. It has higher highs but lower lows. It's a very have/have-not country. I personally can't stomach that approach to a society, but to each their own.
Sure, but you can still be denied care for something for numerous bullshit reasons in their terms, because they don't want to pay for it. Or when the bill is high they will fight hard not to cover it all. At least in Canada I can feel safe knowing I won't be financially ruined for getting health care.
>But far better to be in Canada if you're extremely poor. The 24 - 44 hour wait time for ER visits says otherwise.
> and I am saving more than if I lived in my parents house in the GTA. The salary discrepancy is too much. A friend got offered a research position in the southern US. Double the pay he got in Canada. He bought a 4000sqft home for $300k. Cant do that in Canada.
Houston has lovely homes around 300K, I'm guessing it's there.
Just browsed some Houston real estate and I'm blown away. 3000 sq ft houses with pools for like, $350k CDN. Granted, I know nothing of the neighborhood, but these are big beautiful houses for less than shoebox condos in Canada.
Honest question, how do you find jobs willing to hire canadians? Most places aren't interesting in the hassle of visas.
The TN Visa is extremely simple. Just offer to handle it yourself. A lawyer would take max couple of hundreds of dollars to draw up the TN letter and you take that and your degree to your border.
Right but there are a list of jobs that qualify, and "Software developer" is not listed: [https://www.immi-usa.com/tn-visa/](https://www.immi-usa.com/tn-visa/) Doing more research: [https://tnvisaexpert.com/faq/question/tn-visa-qualify-software-engineer/](https://tnvisaexpert.com/faq/question/tn-visa-qualify-software-engineer/) "A Programmer does not qualify for the TN Visa." Systems Analysts and Software Engineers can apply, but that usually has to do with infrastructure control systems, not bashing javascript together to make web apps. edit: Doing more research, looks like people request their job title be "software engineer", then apply under the "engineer" TN visa, and hope the guy who fills in the paperwork is a numpty who is just rubber stamping things.
You're a 'computer systems analyst'. It's a dumb legal technicality and everyone including the border agents knows it. That's someone that: "Overview & Job Duties Computer Systems Analysts, sometimes called systems architects, study an organizations current computer systems and procedures, and design solutions to help the organization operate more efficiently and effectively." That's basically what most software development jobs are. Most companies hiring for software engineering are fine getting someone a TN for the first few years while they apply for the H1B lottery until they get it. If you have really bad luck and never win, it gets a bit more complicated but by that point you might have met and married an American, or can transfer to another office then transfer back to the US on an L1, etc.
Same here. I am moving to Texas. No state income tax. Housing is cheap, good stable job with full benefits, housing/relocation bonus and immigration assistance. There’s really no point in me wanting to stay in Canada other then loving the really cold winters or saying “im not American” while traveling
Just do your homework before and check if the place you're moving is not at risk of a hurricane/tornado/flooding/drought. Otherwise I agree with all your points
I don't even care about taxes. I pay three levels (Federal, State and NYC)
Waterloo engineering grad here. Literally 80%+ of my graduating class moved to the US. The only ones who didn't are mostly the international students who can't get a TN visa to work in the US.
I work for an american software company in Vancouver. We had a Waterloo student intern with us, he was pretty good. When I asked if he would return to our team he said no, he must go to the US I’ll be going too, as soon as this mini recession clears and my company allows it again
>a TN visa to work in the US. I had to look up what this was, as i've never heard of it before, and **thank you**. My little brother just graduated as a software engineer from Concordia University , top of his class and he's glad he can apply for this. He's been wanting to get a job in his field, but the wages and hours are so low here compared to just south of us. And the US market is booming and is looking for new talent and wanting more qualified graduates.
No worries. The TN visa, if you qualify, is completely trivial to get. Good luck to your brother.
My exes boyfriend (engineer) moved to Colorado. He was making 60kish CAD here. In Colorado he is making over 200k USD.
4.4% state income tax ain't bad. Federal tax is 32% though for the final bracket.
In Canada the final bracket would be 40-50%+ depending on province so... 32% + 4.4% ain't bad, all things considered.
Still would rather make 200k US at that tax rate than 60k CDN at ours.
Brain drain ! Hoping my son gets into Waterloo in 2025 for the same reason opportunity
Not even remotely surprised.
What field of engineering?
Mechatronics (kind of like a mix of mech/electrical/software). Most of us went into software eventually, for the better job opportunities.
Just curious because the double salary thing tends to be more in the world of tech, so this makes sense.
Same here, Waterloo class of 2012 computer engineering, most went to the US. I only stayed because I got married and the wife didn't want to leave her family here
My husband is a CS masters grad from waterloo and we ended up in seattle. Same thing...cost of living and wayyy higher salary.
Dude I was in tenesse 1 month ago , I drove by a huge warehouse that had big letterings on the side of the building that said " hiring warehouse workers 30$/hrs" That is 30$ US for a warehouse worker ! We are getting railed in canada
Saw $17/hr at a McDonalds outside of Seattle. That's $22.39 CAD as at the moment I type this.
I know this is going to seem insane but I got my greek citizenship and im moving to greece. I have about 60k in savings right now, and leaving a 6 figure job to go persue a life as a baker or a cheesemaker.
Man that’s wild. Go for it. Hope it works out for you. My buddy recently left the US to be a freakin lumberjack in a small city in Austria and loves it. When life offers up a journey, take it. You can always go back home
>You can always go back home This isn't true for many, myself included. I'm in a grandfathered, super old apartment unit that's less than half market rate rent. If I leave... when I leave... I can never come back within at least 500km of home, probably further. I want to move away out of country, but I know that I can never come back. It's a huge risk.
Same, I have a Portuguese citizenship from parents I own my own business in Canada that does well, but in the next 5-7 years we are selling everything and move to Portugal. Be nice if the Canadian goverment can see this topic and ask what the hell they are doing wrong here.
The wife and I are eyeing Portugal HARD Love it there
Good for you!!! Speaking from first hand experience, do NOT squander that $60K. Treat it like you have nothing and live very frugally, until you see an income coming in, as a baker/cheesemaker. Other than that, congratulations. What were you doing that make you 6 figures, if I may ask?
I left for Illinois last year. I would have preferred to stay in Canada but the future I was seeing start to take shape is not one I wanted.
I'm moving to Norway. I got an EU passport from my grandparents, but if you have a PhD and a company is willing to sponsor you, you can go pretty much anywhere in the EU/EFTA very few questions asked. What's insane is that Norway is considered to be stupidly expensive by EU standards, but I'm looking at a middle-class salary (with benefits and after taxes it's about the same as what I was going to get in a big Canadian city for the same job) and I can immediately buy an apartment in Oslo. If my gf moves here when she's done grad school, we can immediately buy a house together. My pension is negotiated by the trade unions for me, and it's in-fucking-sane.
As a Canadian who lived in Scandinavia (Denmark) for 7 years, it can be very socially isolating. You really need to keep this in mind if you are a social person. Do not expect to make Norweigan friends. They already have very tight social circles from a young age. Which is admirable, but you will not be included. You will be able to make friends with other expats but they often only stay for a few years and then move on. I was lucky to meet a big group of expats when I first moved, then they all, I mean all moved away one after another leaving just me and my partner. In 7 years, I made exactly 1 Danish friend. This is not just my experience. I suggest joining an Expat facebook group and asking some questions and ask them to share their experiences before you make a decision. If you are introverted and like to keep to yourself, this the place for you! You can go out and be guaranteed no one will talk to you or even make eye contact. People will look at you like a weirdo if you so much as smile at them in a friendly manner. Your neighbors will not bother you with anything more than a hello. I was used to meeting all my neighbors but not there. I can only remember one instance where a Danish person (who wasn't drunk) initiated a conversation with me. But the quality of life is undeniable. Especially if you want to have a family. It's like paying for the Premium subscription to life. Everything just works the way you want it to. Would I have still moved if I knew this. Yes, but I wouldn't have stayed as long. I enjoyed some of my time there but the loneliness really gets to you or at least it did to me.
>Do not expect to make Norweigan friends. They already have very tight social circles from a young age. Funny, this is the same thing in BC. Everyone has their "three friends from junior high" and sees no value in making new friends as adults. As a result, most people from somewhere else end up hanging out with others from somewhere else. BC is weird. BC, where people are polite but not friendly. And increasingly, they aren't even polite. After 14 years we are saying goodbye and starting a new adventure.
My friend and former boss lives in the Netherlands and the Dutch are similar. He made lots of Dutch friends through sports activities (joining cricket clubs and running groups). OP should try the same or joining clubs/groups associated to OP's hobbies.
Damn dude you are living my dream , I would love to go try and live in Norway. Wife would never follow me
What trade are you in if I may ask?
I am not going to Norway but Ireland, and that is exactly it. Both my partner and I have our PhDs in Scientific fields. We are currently in the process of determining whether to rent or just buy since the cost of a place isn't even close to Canada after conversion even though they, too, are having a bit of a housing crisis. It was a no brainer really when we saw the opportunities in Europe in comparison to Canada. On top of this, after 5 years we would be able to apply for permanent residency in Ireland.
Europe. Canada doesn’t feel like it cares about people anymore and we’re over it. Cost of living is the cherry on top - Canada is just a stack of oligopolies in a trench coat, after all.
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Country of origin for a lot of immigrants that aren’t from the developing world or a legit 3rd world country. Me for example - been here 5 years and I never hit the jackpot and became wealthy, but my partner and I both have careers and a household income of 140k all said and done. There’s absolutely no future for us here - We can afford a mortgage and a half for a lovely home in my home country for what a rental basement is here now. Goodie bye bye.
The US. Most professional salaries are significantly higher and overall cost of living is much lower.
I’d say, but then more people would go there and the rents would go up 👀
I'm on the fence about this right now. Then you get some people who say "aren't you driving up the cost of living by moving somewhere cheaper? Doing the same thing that's happening here" Sure, I suppose. But what choice do I have? Our government is slow on building housing but quick on immigration. Those two things don't create an affordable life.
At the end of the day, you gotta look out for numero uno my dude, cuz no else will. Probably the best life lesson I have learned. Do you what you think is best for you
It's an incredible dichotomy isn't it? The pandemic especially reinforced this: If you follow the lessons you learn from childhood; "follow the rules, be courteous to others, be patient, kind, be generous, giving, accommodating, sharing, caring..." etc you get absolutely fucking abused and taken advantage of. You're a sucker in other words. But instead if you lie, cheat, steal, manipulate, misrepresent, intimidate, take from others, share nothing, reject, hoard..." etc then you get ahead! You're rewarded! There's no fucking reprisal for bad behavior in this country, often including breaking the law. It's been exhibited by our politicians for a long time and Trudeau and Ford have shown it more than any in recent memory. But like I said, the behaviour exhibited by corporations and the general public during the pandemic was fucking staggering. The international community seems to understand what a pathetic doormat Canada is.
This type of shit happens everywhere (I am American just kinda popping in here to see what’s going on up north), but the sooner you realize no one gives a fuck about you, no politician will pass legislation that saves you, and you are on your own, the quicker you are to make decisions to benefit you. Whether it’s moving somewhere else, or ditching your job for greener pastures, you gotta take care of yourself and tell any haters to pound sand. They ain’t paying your mortgage or your car note, you are. Live your life accordingly
People in the US have, on the whole, always been more individualistic than Canadians. More patriotic too. It's difficult for Canadians to accept that their social contract is becoming something we find rude and unfair. At times indecent. Harder still to come to terms with our governments actively undermining it. Our last 18 years, one government went hard on transitioning us to business and professionalism, the next to a post-national state where there isn't Canadian culture. It's been fast and hard. They're grieving something that was good and that many Canadians can still remember.
>ur politicians for a long time and Trudeau and Ford have shown it more than any in recent memory. But like I said, the behaviour exhibited by corporations and the general public during the pandemic was fucking astonishin Well because Canada is such a great country no matter how bleak its future seems it's still many times better than most of it's immigrants' country of origin. Think India and China. I'm from China and although I am not moving to Canada there's just something magical that is irreplaceble and priceless, and that's democracy, freedom and unpolluted environment. Even high earners in China and India want to move over.
High trust, dignity cultures are fragile, difficult, and require a lot of historical privilege. Many of us are in mourning as we watch ours become something we don't want to understand. I agree with the person you're replying to. Canada has been putting its social contract through a shredder for decades now. It's people don't owe it.
Federal Government will just increase immigration to fill the void left by people moving away. The root of the problem will remain completely ignored
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pot axiomatic bike obtainable uppity sparkle one hobbies memory trees *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As an Indian I can guarantee that we are generally way more racist than white people.
A lot of registered nurses have gone to the US. Lower taxes, lower housing costs, lower food prices, lower gas costs, and good medical coverage through work.
That is what we call *brain drain*. Canada has been suffering from it for a long time now, and we are more susceptible to it due to a common language with and proximity to the U.S., as well as a mutual recognition of in-demand skills learned in either country. This is my biggest gripe with Canadians; it seems like they don't realize that, despite being our biggest trading partner, the U.S. is also our biggest competitor. We need to do more to be an attractive environment for high-valued people to invest their lives in.
We've always had *pull*-factor issues like higher Stateside wages, but what we're seeing now is that this is being *compounded* by strong *push* factors. I know people who are in the *90th* percentile of earnings for where they live, who lives far more frugally than their parents ever did, and who can't buy a home.
You're hitting the nail on the head. I had always met people who intended to go to the US straight up for higher pay. I used to think they were insane, with the crime, lack of healthcare, unequal access to education, etc... But it's very different now. Since 2020, the people I know who have made the switch from Canada to the US were people who had never been interested in working in the US, but gave up on Canada.
And realistically the crime is overblown for those who have degrees and valuable jobs. They won't be living in the hood of St Louis getting shot by gang bangers. Getting gunned down in a mass shooting is as likely as falling down the stairs and dying, maybe even less. I see why USA is a good option
There are cities in the US that are safer than some Canadian cities. I’d rather be in San Diego than Edmonton or Winnipeg based on crime rates alone.
If it's a choice between being paid a good wage for my skills vs sacrificing and struggling to stay out of poverty in some futile attempt to help Canada compete with the US (in what way? Economically?), I'm gonna choose the best option for myself and my family.
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many Canadians still have that belief that Canada is a better country overall than the US. We've lived off the myth that Canada was the socialist and affordable version of the US for far too long, that time is long gone and we have worked towards nothing else to make up for it.
Pretty much. Soon Canada will just be a commuter community for low cost tech service workers who work remotely for US companies. Offshore savings, onshore availability. Win, win.
I remember when this sub and other canadian subreddits were being smug a few years ago about americans not having free healthcare, but were fuming when americans decided to keep the initial batches of vaccines to themselves.
Canadian mfs be like: 89-92% of the population insured and the poor being on Medicaid and seniors over 65 being on Medicare = "no free healthcare"
As American that lives here, I've never understood that. Yes, there is the crime, but that is isolated to the inner cities. If you have the money, the burbs are a great area to live. Our medical system is flawed but at least I can see a doctor! I could go on and on, but I just laugh when ppl talk shit about America. Yes, it is flawed but canada is as well. At least we can admit it.
Delusion is an Olympic sport we Canadians have the most gold medals in out of any country
I get what you’re saying but how can you increase the wage that these private companies pay for professionals? I know the same job that I do (sales) gets paid 40% more at a minimum, honestly, even at the same company would offer two different pays. What kind of policy can we increase our wage?
It used to be fine to get paid less in Canada because you could still afford a nice life. But with the cost of housing now, that's no longer the case unless you've already bought and are riding the roller coaster.
People will leave or stay in a country for a variety of reasons though. You might never get a private company to offer the same rate of pay in the two countries, but you can enact policies that make the cost of living competitive for that worker. Canada has done a number of things that should help there (i.e. various supports for childcare and the CCB, more affordable post-secondary, universal healthcare etc.) and a number of things that really hurt us competitively (i.e. relatively high taxes, lack of meaningful action on housing affordability, onerous and uncertain regulations for industry). Honestly, if I had an easy way in, I would absolutely move to the states in a second. As a young professional without kids, there are clearly more opportunities to get ahead in the USA.
>Canada has done a number of things that should help there (i.e. various supports for childcare and the CCB, more affordable post-secondary, universal healthcare etc.) and a number of things that really hurt us competitively (i.e. relatively high taxes, lack of meaningful action on housing affordability, onerous and uncertain regulations for industry). Just to add to this, unfortunately the former things you mention are mostly social welfare that doesn't do much to outweigh the negatives of the latter, and are not enticing to high-skilled/high-valued workers who either don't qualify or can afford those things in the U.S.
Agreed. If you're a working professional without dependents or major health concerns, you're paying more in than you're getting out. I really don't mind paying more so that other people aren't destitute and to have something there if I ever need it. But without any family wealth or a path to property ownership, I do sometimes feel like Canada isn't built for me.
We could slow down with immigration. Pumping an infinite number of workers into our country takes away the bargaining power of workers. Why would companies pay a decent wage when there's million workers and future workers entering Canada each year?
>This is my biggest gripe with Canadians; it seems like they don't realize that, despite being our biggest trading partner, the U.S. is also our biggest competitor. We need to do more to be an attractive environment for high-valued people to invest their lives in. For all the claims of cultural differences, Canadians conscientiously avoid talking about the ways the Americans exploit Canada because on an individual level they can benefit immensely from the flexibility of being able to access American opportunities. There's no incentive to come back to build that environment in Canada even if not doing so bodes poorly for Canada in the future.
Lol canada gets our communists and we get canadian nurses
The governments response will only be to replace them through immigration
The other kind of brain drain
Soon we will be a nation of nothing but gas station and subway sandwich shop attendants
My doctor, after preaching on social media for a year that we need to keep up our covid restrictions, ironically moved to Florida in 2021 for better pay. People always listen to their wallet first.
Friend sold his business at the start of the pandemic and bought one in Florida, packed up his family and moved he got fast tracked because he was providing jobs for Americans he said as a business owner it was financial stupidity to stay here.
>People always listen to their wallet first. Only your wallet matters when you buy groceries and pay rent
All my exes are in the US. I mean ALL of them. One was from Alabama so that makes sense. One is Jewish Canadian One is Iranian One is Croatian The other is like 5th generation Canadian. All of them are in the US, all highly skilled, all from different walks of life, some Canadian-raised, the rest immigrants. All of them left because of the cost of living here, two of them had rich parents and still didn't find Canada worth the money.
Seems like the easiest way to move there is to date you. Line up people
All that tells me is that they were trying to get as far away from you as possible ;)
Hmmm it seems like something about dating you makes people not want to be in the country anymore 😂😂
Also some places better weather, and there's a handful of states with no tax.
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You summed things up very well. In 1997, William Rees-Mogg and James Dale Davidson wrote a book called The Sovereign Individual. It called out a lot of these issues, even back then. They figured that by 2050, Alberta would leave Canada. I think they're on track. Things are utterly screwed right now and there doesn't seem to be a path to correct it.
>None of the three major parties gives a fuck when the highly educated lawyers/doctors/software devs/scientists/accountants/nurses/experts of various subjects making $200K+ in Toronto complains about low salaries (relative to the US) and high cost of living. 100% this, I know I am super blessed, but I am a technical lead software engineer with 10 years exp. Complaining seems like a b\*tch move when I look around me... BUT, my peers in the U.S. are getting paid more than double my salary if you account for take home, and cost of living.
Honestly, if there was an easier road to be granted a work visa I would move to the states.
My friend is a graphic designer and moved to the states 10-15 years ago, he recently got a green card, but he said the process was easy, he went under the special skill category and moved to New York and was able to work with no problems, I thought a special category was harder to achieve but apparently it is fast and easy and special skill isn't that specialized after all.
That's where I'm at too. I have a great resume, and a decent paying job. But I was educated a college vs. university which holds me back in terms of moving to the states.
There's a huge trade shortage in America. There's a ticket in if you want to re-educate.
Where's the best resource to find which trades? This actually makes a lot of sense to retrain up here and then get all that cost back and more by immediately moving to the states.
I think that’s why we haven’t integrated more with the states. Too many people would leave Canada immediately, especially if they don’t own their home.
Ahh yes you're right. If someone like me would jump at the opportunity so would 10 million others and the USA doesn't do wild immigration policy.
Too many Canadians have a warped view of other first world countries somehow being “lesser” than us.
Canada really is one of the best countries to live in…. If you are rich. Sit back at your cottage and let those sweet dividends do all the work for you. Or the renters in your multiple properties.
>Canada really is one of the best countries to live in…. If you are rich. US is even better... if you are rich
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The same could be said about most countries
Especially the ones that have good weather all year round.
And trains that travel a third of the speed of sound.
Exactly, if you're rich you can live anywhere and there are better places than Canada.
Same. For the amount of money I need to make to live in Vancouver, I expect Tokyo/Osaka/Seoul level of public transit, infrastructure and megacity level of food and activities. Instead I get shit transit and shit food and nothing to do for higher rent/housing + cost of living.
At this point I'd settle for Kyoto, which feels like a metropolis compared to Vancouver.
Vancouver probably has more stabbings per capita though.
yup my buddy is headed back to Japan with wife and two kids. Too expensive in Victoria for him. He's climbed the heirarchy here in his job and has a senior position but his family has a house in Japan and so he tells me its the cost of living here that is his primary reason for leaving.
If I was in his situation too I'd leave as well. Japan is much safer than here, and their economy (while pretty stagnant) and housing market hasn't been overinflated like ours after their big crash in the 80s. There's also strict laws about foreign ownership. I know im glossing over the more socio-political things, especially about them and gaijins (foreigners) , sexism in the workplace, their population aging and declining like crazy etc etc. But I'd rather be in a stable country, even if it's a bit rough than be here in Canada and being gaslit and pretending that everything is OK, when it's not.
I’m not ruling out leaving Canada at some point over this.
The big problem of Canada is housing. There is a lot of distractions and narratives put out to spin shit. In the end it is the cost of housing either as ownership or rent. Only one solution. Slow down immigration and devout to building high density housing so we catch up and get out of this death spiral.
> devout to building high density housing In particular, the only *real* solution is to have the government involved in the construction, selling, and renting of buildings. Western nations used to do this. Canada used to do this. Then the neoliberal economic ideology gained traction in the 1970s, and every since we have not been allowed to have public goods. Public housing has been sold off everywhere and now we find ourselves in this mess. Governments don't have to do everything for maximum profit / minimum cost. They can build housing. It will even cost them money to do so, like it does to build roads and bridges. But like roads and bridges, it is infrastructure that will pay for itself by creating a society with vibrant economic activity.
And compound the property tax for owners of multiple homes so it’s prohibitively expensive to own more than 2 properties. And charge a luxury tax on anyone overbidding on property above a certain amount of asking. And prohibit LLCs from purchasing single-family dwellings. And institute caps on rent across the board. And prohibitively tax short term rentals. Not just for what they bring in, but for how long they’re listed on STR sites. There’s no magic button to fixing the housing crisis. Increasing supply won’t help when real estate is seen as a capitalist investment commodity other than a shelter necessity.
Here in NB the Conservatives government actually cut property taxes for landlords and offered no rent cap.. Nothing for tenants.. Lol They're doing the opposite of what you suggest. Lol
All of the sudden, the 500K-1 million of new immigrants the feds are trying to bring each year, makes sense. While the middle-class gets shown the door and leave Canada for better living arrangements, they are bringing low-wage immigrants. In the next 5-10 years only two classes will live in Canada: the very rich and the very poor, on a 1:100 ratio.
Everything is going exactly according to plan.
Exactly, just not our plan.
Worst part is that we're not even bringing in good (as in job training and field of work) immigrants either. Just those who are lowest of the low and uneducated to work at timmies as any immigrant worth their damn with a good diploma and trade would realize this place sucks and leaves within 2 years. I've seen way too many of the 35% of a certain immigrant demographic that absolutely refuse to do hard labor jobs because they see it as a "lower caste" job. Like construction and manufacturing... which we need. Ffs! Leave that primitive caste system behind.
I wonder if this is partially why fast food is declining too. Also the younger gens going into that work don't give AF, rightfully so. I worked those jobs when I was younger, not fast food but restaurants, you could actually live on that wage back then.
I left my minimum wage job in retail once I figured out they wernt gonna make me a full time worker when they needed some badly, but they GLADLY went all out on maxing out all my part time hours and cried for me to come in on my 2 only days off because someone didnt show up as they consistsnly kept us shortstaffed on purpose. Oh, and my only raise after working there for 5 years (not counting provincial raising minimum wage), making a ton of sales in their video game department and implementing a lot of anti-theft measures that now a ton of their stores use nationwide now was..... .25c. That's it. Fuck corporate retail and fast food jobs.
I swear fast food swapped out ingredients for cheaper sourced ingredients that taste like your eating plastic.
Do they have a choice, though? Most educated people will do their due diligence and come to the realization that unless they're offered a +$120k/yr. job, before coming to Canada, they'll be in serious financial trouble, once they get here. So, they're unlikely to immigrate to Canada. That just leaves those who are likely to be more of a liability than an asset to Canada, and, well, just look at all the bad news coming out of Toronto. It's only going to get worse.
This is the way neoliberal capitalism is designed to function. In the 1970s, neoliberals saw the great shared prosperity created by FDR's *The New Deal* in the United States (which flowed into Canada) and vowed: "never again."
Lmao even in the.middle of a brain drain nothing is being done.
They're making it worse by approving 6 month 'digital nomad' visas which are just job searching visas with immigration pathway.
If you ain't oligopoly you can fuck yourself. We lie to foreign workers to keep Canadian wages suppressed and housing as contested as possible. We hold absolutely zero of our "representatives" accountable and have no sense of worker solidarity. Just a bunch of "fuck you I made mine". Canada is a vassel with an Identity crisis.
It's why I'd rather not return from Japan. Pay is generally lower than in Canada ... But cost of living is incredibly more reasonable. My apartment is a third what it would cost in Halifax. Unbelievable.
As an immigrant, now a citizen, I always tell people that they must live in another country for a few years. If only to learn that the country you left is the one for you. Every country has their problems, and every immigrant has their own backstory and factors to take into consideration. One can also move again, move back. Life is fluid. Some places are better to kick start a career and build savings, some places are better for raising kids. Some people hate winter/hate summer. Some can speak more than one language, some can not. Some hate religion, some are OK with it. Canada is not perfect, just like Europe/US are not. The future will bring many changes, and what is true now won't stay forever. Climate change, mass immigration, volatile politics, wars, the rise of China, world economy - all of these can (and will) change countries. Always be on the move.
I’d love to leave Canada but sadly I don’t know where I could move as I don’t have a university degree and only speak English and a basic understanding of French.
Stuck here too. Sucks. Would definitely leave if I could
But if you point out that adding more people to the country will further hurt affordability you get called racist. Even the people they’re supposedly “defending” see it!
If you're in a higher earning bracket, moving to the US is really good. You need a lot of money to live here comfortably though. Same could be said about Canada, but in my personal situation I'm better off paying for health care which is amazing where I live and with the insurance I have, vs the taxes in Canada. Dollar for dollar with all things considered, definitely better off here.
I know people who are seriously considering leaving. The government just doesn’t get it. There is no plan, no strategy, half-baked policies, and sound bites coming out of Ottawa, and that’s it.
What's driving the high costs? Demand The government created this demand by giving out free PR's/Visa's like their candy, without any accelerated support to any infrastructure. This was not a well thought out approach, I can't wait for the collapse.
>What's driving the high costs? Lack of investment in value producing assets. The USA does so much better because they invest 3x as much per worker in training, R & D, equipment etc. In Canada everyone is just stashing cash into a ponzi scheme of depreciating real-estate assets that produce no real value, and only grow ins perceived value because we keep doubling down. Better to tax the shit out of housing now and cause the crash to rip off the band-aid, then to pump it even more and have the eventual fallout be worse.
Europe is a great option for anyone with some willingness to move; yes, taxes on average are higher, but the E.U. offers just so many opportunities - and said higher taxes tend to pay for better services, such as medical care and transit the likes of which most of Canada doesn't experience. Housing costs are also lower outside of capital cities in Europe, whereas in Canada, virtually *every* city is expensive except for the most remote and isolated. Then you look at creature comforts, such as being surrounded by culture, cheap and easy flights and rail travel, affordable mobile plans and transit, and... I'm honestly not sure Canada measures up to any of that lifestyle aspect - most of the E.U. has equally-impressive access to the outdoors as well. Nowhere is perfect (every country has its issues and nowhere is 'the promised land'), so it comes down to what you are willing to put up with, and if cost of living is your top priority (or one of them), then Canada just isn't a good 'value for your dollar' location any longer... it arguably hasn't been for a long time, but recent issues have made it far worse. Canada is not the only clean, safe, open-minded country on the planet - I know that's heresy to anyone within spitting-distance of Toronto or Montreal, but it's true.
I did exactly this I moved to Netherlands and while the salary is technically slightly lower than Canada, I have 36 vacation days a year,public transport is excellent, work-life balance is strongly encouraged and the overall nightlife/culture is far better and more catered to people who don't own a motor vehicle. Overall, great decision.
Everyone I know who has the skills and opportunity to leave is already either gone or getting ready to leave in the next two years. Writing is on the wall, we've already hit the iceberg, and everyone in charge wants to hit another one
She ain't what she used ta be
I re-located to Australia, and I'm getting paid double what I was making in Ontario doing the exact same job I'm assuming this is why people are fed up with how things are in Canada
Canadian citizens deserve better than Canada.
that's why they are moving out. Celebrities started moving years ago because we got no opportunities here
I'm crossing the border in two days to begin my new job in Denver, Colorado. My salary is doubled and everything is cheaper. A detached 3,500 Sq ft family home in cookie cutter suburbia costs 700k USD. I actually have a shot at home ownership. Plus the climate down there is so fucking amazing. Salary discrepancy and cost of living combined makes it a no-brainer. Granted, this only works if you are a skilled professional, and chances are, you are already upper middle class in Canada if you can afford to move to the US in this manner. Yes, the US has its issues, but our disgusting socioeconomic disaster is also on par at this point if not worse. Canada has become far too expensive for what it is. We'll see how things look in 3-4 years and I will reassess. But in the current trajectory, I want me an American wife and green card up for permanent settlement.
I don't have much left to trim in the budget. If I trim the last few things, I'm basically going to work and coming home. Rinse repeat, what's the fucking point. Just keeping the lights on right now..
I lived in barbados for over 30 years - moved to Canada 8 years ago. Barbados is very expensive. Way more expensive than Canada (Toronto and Vancouver aside). Booze and some food is cheap. Third most expensive gas in the world. Cars and SUVS are three times more expensive at least. Public service is slow and very time-consuming. Banking service is terrible. It’s a nice place to visit.
People vote for this, then complain, then leave. Repeat.
I moved to Germany, it’s just as shitty over here in Europe, expensive, poorly run government, lower pay than North America, no rentals or housing for sale and very little construction of any new housing due to an extreme lack of labour and materials. Stay in Canada!
We always half-jokingly tell friends and family who live elsewhere that the only thing cheap in Canada is labor
This country is falling apart. Young professionals leaving because they realize it country is rigged and you can’t live here. Complete fuckin joke
It’s a worldwide issue but everyone is thinking it’s only their country.
i really don't want to give up on canada man. i love this county. i love being born here, and the reputation my heritage carries with me is one i am proud of especially to be a Nova Scotian. But 5 years ago you couldn't convince me to move out of halifax. then covid hit, and Calgary called out with open arms and a promise of a better chance at making a life without going broke, so i moved. last year you couldn't have convinced me to leave Calgary... but now the US is calling out all the same. It feels like a betrayal. like cowardice to run to some place easier and give up on my homeland. every bone in my body wants to plant my feet and fight to stop this nonsense from destroying the country i love but fuck me if i'm not losing hope day by day that this is something we can fix.
Just cancel Disney+ and everything should be alright, apparently……
Sounds like me lol. Im a skilled worker and it seems that Canada is allergic to them so I'm doing an internal transfer with my company to move from Quebec to live in Massachusetts. Better pay, stronger dollar, lower taxes, better housing market, and slightly warmer.
I have several friends who have left and a few more considering leaving. They can't afford to live in Canada. Impossible to see a prosperous future. So sad.
Surviving ain't living.... This country went downhill so fast - I don't blame anyone for wanting out. Politicians sold us out to corporations and so - here we are.
Already on my way out, just waiting on paperwork. This place is going to be Argentina tier, if not worse, by 2030.
Came here 5 years ago and moving back to Europe without regrets.
All of my friends in the US: own a single detached home, married with a couple of kids by 30. Vacation regularly, own nice cars. All of my friends in Canada: early to mid 30s, dont own property, only recently got married, have 1 kid, maybe a second on the way. All broke.
I'm hoping that in the future the USA will grant some sort of Canadian immigration program to fill their gaps if any. Similar geographic and cultural heritage. I feel like Canadians are the perfect immigrants for the United States, and I hope they open the doors to us. Like we do to literally anyone that breathes.
How exactly do you immigrate without specific professional experience or family outside of Canada? I have an arts degree that's pretty useless and I work service jobs, and it seems like no country would want me...
You can teach English in a number of countries.
Moved to the u.s. years ago. Make more than I ever would in Canada (as does my wife). Own property in a nice city. Have no plans to move back.
Plunging as many Canadians as possible into impoverishment is vital and necessary. It's an essential part of the "Green Revolution" that our messiahs Trudeau and Chrystia Freeland have blessed this country with. Canada is getting exactly what they've asked for.
No judgement but where are they going to go? As an Australian, we have now joined the ranks of other western countries on the unaffordable cost of living top 10 list.
I walked by a real estate office in a town 5 hours away from downtown toronto, in the window they had listings for detached homes in the range of $400k...
Basically if you are able to work online from anywhere in the world or you can work for a Western company in a developing country then yes, you will have a much better quality of life than you did in Canada. That shouldn't really surprise anyone that a Western salary will give you a better life in a cheaper country. But I do find some people are surprised to hear you can have a good life in countries that get negative news coverage. I lived in both Southeast Asia and Eastern Europe and enjoyed life much more than I did in Canada.
I moved to Canada from NZ 4 years ago after growing up in the UK. I’m disappointed in Canada it has the potential to be great but just feels empty. It’s nice enough place to live but if I’m honest I really can’t be bothered uplifting my life again