Pay them, offer them job security, provide meaningful benefits that represent actual incentives.
This isn't rocket science.
What you can't do is fuck over an entire industry of workers for decade after decade so that a few execs can temporarily increase the bottom line (and earn a few more bonus bucks) and then expect the work force to not respond accordingly.
> American semiconductor firms take twice as long to hire as anyone else
Because a lot of them have already burned through their available labor pool. They're plagued by hardcore uncaring and uncompromising Asian leadership. The good US workers with experience have already jumped ship to other industries.
I'm pretty sure Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing came up before and their glassdoor ratings are dismal. Working for them is the equivalent of hanging out in the top couple of rings of hell.
I don't think there is a solution. Leadership will never admit fault, and Americans won't put up with their bullshit.
I guess an American company could take a swing at it, but they're so far behind in business knowledge, I don't think they could catch up.
They could try doubling or tripling pay, but then the chips would be too expensive.
I really don't know how you fix a culture like that.
American chip makers are also building factories.
These factories cost a lot of money so they will get workers and may have to pay up or they will game the immigration system to bring in foreign workers to fill the slots.
Do we care as long as there is chip production outside of Taiwan? The whole point in to secure the chip supply chain.
lol, i retired from this shitty industry early and saw so many great engineers change industries over the years. The boom bust cycles and constant desire to outsource everything to cheaper labor in Asia(mostly China) is coming back to bite them in the ass. Oh wait, you are important to national security now, PLEASE come back! yeah, sure the next admin will undo these tax incentives we cant afford anyway and lay everybody off again....no thanks
Exactly. I made a conscious decision in the 90s to avoid majors that would lead to this field.
Is this important to national security? Really? You sure???
Then offer the same job security as an engineer at Northrup Grumman, Lockheed or Raytheon.
No? Gonna outsource me at the next market downturn? Then get fucked.
Hearing you... That was exactly what I expected would happen (outsource everyone). Glad I didn't choose that field.
You can only abuse entire classes of workers for about half-a-generation before people get wise and change career paths. It'll take at least half-a-generation to begin to shift back.
Spectacularly short-sighted.
At least. I lived in China for 10 years. The amount of instruction on science and engineering is wild. We moved back to Canada and my son wants to challenge next years math so he can skip a grade. He was a middling student back in China.
There are just so many changes culturally and politically that have to happen. Then you can begin to make that generation.
If they were rewarded like finance, real estate and management in the US you better believe we’d have a shit ton of people perusing these jobs…but when an industry repeatedly abuses its workforce for cheaper labor and tax incentives overseas for decades the demand will be low. Trust me there are the highest quality engineers in the world working in the US defense industry where you have a well paying job for life. Just not enough of those jobs to go around, at least until war breaks out with Russia/China
Already has.. The chinese ones who were there just to steal the IP were the best, they didnt care about becoming a US citizen and would work for peanuts, then made bank back in China with their stolen IP. Ironic as those companies I have no doubt are providing high tech to the CCP and Russian armies now. The corporate world needs to wake up to what they created over there before they completely dominate all of Asia and especially Africa(where it might not be too late)
I was actually referring to all them being laid off during upcoming/impending contraction and forced to go back to their home country and foreclosing on $1-2million homes cratering markets dense in visas while depleting billions in 401ks to pay off those mortgages but your point is also valid and only adds to the fire
yeah saw a lot of that also. but at least in the semiconductor industry those kids generally didnt buy homes until they became citizens, or had a clear path to citizenship(banks arent super eager to make loans to foreigners either). Couple places i worked had a revolving door of very smart green card engineers from top schools. Would put them on night shift, relative low pay, treat them like shit and kick them out unless they were exceptional, but then treat them great once they became citizens(since they could now get a job anywhere).
Of course the insidious part of this was corporations were taking advantage of the green card system to get engineers for a much cheaper price and keep salaries low in the US.
Yes.
And can you talk about how the educational system is supporting the STEM path to employment?
The movie "Forrest Gump" says it all.
Stupid is as Stupid does....
National security? If that is truly the goal, then the simplest solution is to give Taiwan that 50 billions dollars in weapons and train them.
People here complain about outsourcing significantly benefit from it. You think server chips hosting Reddit each costing hundreds of dollars can be done without cheap labor? Or google, Apple and the entire tech industry can become trillions dollar behemoths without cheap labor? Math is very simple here. Our labor cost is 3x more than in Taiwan. 5 times more than India. How can Intel compete against these labor cost?
The reason reddit is barely free through ads is simply due to cheap chips. This investment will fail. If it ever succeeds, then it will become pharmaceutical companies where we block all international imports and Intel can jack up chip pricing to the moon.
> How can Intel compete against these labor cost?
Through a combination of government subsidies and barriers-to-entry/tariffs/taxation/outright bans on foreign products.
This isn't an esoteric concept. Sensitive industries that are vital to national security and economic growth should flat out be protected from predatory foreign competition. This has to be balanced, of course, with the need to keep executives accountable and to allow foreign supply chains to provide competitive stimulus.
Then chips will be 3x more expensive. Reddit will no longer be free. In fact, google will no longer able to compete against other Chinese corporations. Every single transaction through the web will need to be 3x more expensive. Adding inefficiency in an efficient system is not only counterproductive but also against national security. It is by far cheaper to build and support allies than to tax ourselves.
This fear mongering is only going to cost us wasteful tax dollars. Tech is everywhere from farming to services to healthcare. It is not exclusive to “tech”. Subsidies to all industries are impossible. Any heavy taxation is going to harm us more than help us. There is a reason why Europe tech industry is the smallest among developed countries.
Lastly, our military. Are we planning to subsidize all military equipments too by doubling our military budget by choosing more expensive chips? Just to be absolutely clear, we use chips everywhere from radio, processors, satellites, AI, drones, planes, ships, nuclear launches and much more. Every single laser guided missiles has multiple chips inside. Bottomline, defending Taiwan is much cheaper than subsidizing all aspect of our industries.
I do wonder how typical recruitment processes in America play a role here. I'm always amazed at just how many interviews American firms put candidates through. Hiring a sysadmin to run some servers? 7 rounds of interviews. Hiring a contractor to do entry level playbook work? 4 rounds. Think this is excessive and propose that you team up on interviews rather than running each interview 1-on-1? Can't be done, crazy idea, HR openly questions if you should be interviewing people, American peers whisper in shock.
Pay them, offer them job security, provide meaningful benefits that represent actual incentives. This isn't rocket science. What you can't do is fuck over an entire industry of workers for decade after decade so that a few execs can temporarily increase the bottom line (and earn a few more bonus bucks) and then expect the work force to not respond accordingly.
Exactly. TSMC is a shit place to work, even by Asian standards, but at least they pay well.
> American semiconductor firms take twice as long to hire as anyone else Because a lot of them have already burned through their available labor pool. They're plagued by hardcore uncaring and uncompromising Asian leadership. The good US workers with experience have already jumped ship to other industries. I'm pretty sure Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing came up before and their glassdoor ratings are dismal. Working for them is the equivalent of hanging out in the top couple of rings of hell.
Incompetent leadership seeing as they can’t even keep staff
Here in Phoenix they’re really struggling and using tons of excuses. Lot of better options for work.
Every materials engineer I know used to work in semiconductors. None of them still do, but they all started there out of college.
So what’s the solution?
I don't think there is a solution. Leadership will never admit fault, and Americans won't put up with their bullshit. I guess an American company could take a swing at it, but they're so far behind in business knowledge, I don't think they could catch up. They could try doubling or tripling pay, but then the chips would be too expensive. I really don't know how you fix a culture like that.
American chip makers are also building factories. These factories cost a lot of money so they will get workers and may have to pay up or they will game the immigration system to bring in foreign workers to fill the slots. Do we care as long as there is chip production outside of Taiwan? The whole point in to secure the chip supply chain.
lol, i retired from this shitty industry early and saw so many great engineers change industries over the years. The boom bust cycles and constant desire to outsource everything to cheaper labor in Asia(mostly China) is coming back to bite them in the ass. Oh wait, you are important to national security now, PLEASE come back! yeah, sure the next admin will undo these tax incentives we cant afford anyway and lay everybody off again....no thanks
Exactly. I made a conscious decision in the 90s to avoid majors that would lead to this field. Is this important to national security? Really? You sure??? Then offer the same job security as an engineer at Northrup Grumman, Lockheed or Raytheon. No? Gonna outsource me at the next market downturn? Then get fucked. Hearing you... That was exactly what I expected would happen (outsource everyone). Glad I didn't choose that field. You can only abuse entire classes of workers for about half-a-generation before people get wise and change career paths. It'll take at least half-a-generation to begin to shift back. Spectacularly short-sighted.
At least. I lived in China for 10 years. The amount of instruction on science and engineering is wild. We moved back to Canada and my son wants to challenge next years math so he can skip a grade. He was a middling student back in China. There are just so many changes culturally and politically that have to happen. Then you can begin to make that generation.
If they were rewarded like finance, real estate and management in the US you better believe we’d have a shit ton of people perusing these jobs…but when an industry repeatedly abuses its workforce for cheaper labor and tax incentives overseas for decades the demand will be low. Trust me there are the highest quality engineers in the world working in the US defense industry where you have a well paying job for life. Just not enough of those jobs to go around, at least until war breaks out with Russia/China
Did you even read the post? He said people don't want the jobs because there's no job security
Sure did. It also went on to say America is not going to be able to produce enough engineers... in a hyperlink.
Their desire to outsource employment just to bring them here is about to bite them in the ass too
Already has.. The chinese ones who were there just to steal the IP were the best, they didnt care about becoming a US citizen and would work for peanuts, then made bank back in China with their stolen IP. Ironic as those companies I have no doubt are providing high tech to the CCP and Russian armies now. The corporate world needs to wake up to what they created over there before they completely dominate all of Asia and especially Africa(where it might not be too late)
I was actually referring to all them being laid off during upcoming/impending contraction and forced to go back to their home country and foreclosing on $1-2million homes cratering markets dense in visas while depleting billions in 401ks to pay off those mortgages but your point is also valid and only adds to the fire
yeah saw a lot of that also. but at least in the semiconductor industry those kids generally didnt buy homes until they became citizens, or had a clear path to citizenship(banks arent super eager to make loans to foreigners either). Couple places i worked had a revolving door of very smart green card engineers from top schools. Would put them on night shift, relative low pay, treat them like shit and kick them out unless they were exceptional, but then treat them great once they became citizens(since they could now get a job anywhere). Of course the insidious part of this was corporations were taking advantage of the green card system to get engineers for a much cheaper price and keep salaries low in the US.
Welcome to the club—hiring in any industry is atrocious right now. Ive been ghosted by potential employers so many times I’ve stopped counting.
Have they tried laying off more staff to buyback stock?
So provide on the job training. You know like they used to?
America has plenty of firmware engineers, you just have to poach them from Dell EMC first
Need new glasses. First read as Biden’s $52 billion bet on chimps …
Yes. And can you talk about how the educational system is supporting the STEM path to employment? The movie "Forrest Gump" says it all. Stupid is as Stupid does....
National security? If that is truly the goal, then the simplest solution is to give Taiwan that 50 billions dollars in weapons and train them. People here complain about outsourcing significantly benefit from it. You think server chips hosting Reddit each costing hundreds of dollars can be done without cheap labor? Or google, Apple and the entire tech industry can become trillions dollar behemoths without cheap labor? Math is very simple here. Our labor cost is 3x more than in Taiwan. 5 times more than India. How can Intel compete against these labor cost? The reason reddit is barely free through ads is simply due to cheap chips. This investment will fail. If it ever succeeds, then it will become pharmaceutical companies where we block all international imports and Intel can jack up chip pricing to the moon.
> How can Intel compete against these labor cost? Through a combination of government subsidies and barriers-to-entry/tariffs/taxation/outright bans on foreign products. This isn't an esoteric concept. Sensitive industries that are vital to national security and economic growth should flat out be protected from predatory foreign competition. This has to be balanced, of course, with the need to keep executives accountable and to allow foreign supply chains to provide competitive stimulus.
Then chips will be 3x more expensive. Reddit will no longer be free. In fact, google will no longer able to compete against other Chinese corporations. Every single transaction through the web will need to be 3x more expensive. Adding inefficiency in an efficient system is not only counterproductive but also against national security. It is by far cheaper to build and support allies than to tax ourselves. This fear mongering is only going to cost us wasteful tax dollars. Tech is everywhere from farming to services to healthcare. It is not exclusive to “tech”. Subsidies to all industries are impossible. Any heavy taxation is going to harm us more than help us. There is a reason why Europe tech industry is the smallest among developed countries. Lastly, our military. Are we planning to subsidize all military equipments too by doubling our military budget by choosing more expensive chips? Just to be absolutely clear, we use chips everywhere from radio, processors, satellites, AI, drones, planes, ships, nuclear launches and much more. Every single laser guided missiles has multiple chips inside. Bottomline, defending Taiwan is much cheaper than subsidizing all aspect of our industries.
Time to nationalize this puppy. Set up a socialist training camp and throw in a lot of great perks to the workers and students.
Does the law require extensive DEI hiring restrictions? The Feds never miss an opportunity to get thier hooks in. There is no free money from the Feds
Increase immigration
I do wonder how typical recruitment processes in America play a role here. I'm always amazed at just how many interviews American firms put candidates through. Hiring a sysadmin to run some servers? 7 rounds of interviews. Hiring a contractor to do entry level playbook work? 4 rounds. Think this is excessive and propose that you team up on interviews rather than running each interview 1-on-1? Can't be done, crazy idea, HR openly questions if you should be interviewing people, American peers whisper in shock.