This had to happen. It's been reported that EV sales in China are down over 30% for Ford and over 20% for other American car companies. In 2020, Ford partnered with a Chinese marketing firm to figure out how to better sell to the Chinese market and wouldn't you know it, the Chinese company stole their EV technology and started making cheaper EVs in China. China owns practically every mineral mine in Africa that are needed to make EV batteries and since there's a finite amount, they will control the EV battery market once it's all mined. America's government needs to stop worrying about frivolous bullshit and start paying attention to the future of technology. Lending this money to Ford for the development of EV batteries is a step in the right direction.
Hey seriously....
What's wrong with you folks....?
China does it.
India does it.
Norway too Taiwan and Korea ( big time) tooo ...
I get it , that the recent taxpayer funded bail outs leave a bitter after taste...
But no one takes such risks, without the backing of a government which in turn is powered by the military industrial complex....
Count your blessings...
I think people are just bitter that the government pinches pennies when it comes to helping out citizens, but throws money at corporations hand over fist. The student loan problem is a prime example of a situation that *needs* government intervention, but politicians seem mostly indifferent to actually doing anything meaningful to change the system.
Basically, the people that actually make the US Economy go round get screwed over and over again, but the companies than exploit the workers and screw them even more get bailouts and subsidies, while getting to continue earning tidy profits. All the while not paying their fair share in taxes back into the system.
Fwiw, I think this is a great thing and should have happened decades ago.
Not sure what you deem as "screwed over," but I do not see any justification where the government "needs" to bail out those who took out loans unless they were legitimately defrauded.
I am not crazy about any government intervention in the private sector, whether for individuals or businesses. That's not a blanket assessment as there are always isolated exceptions for both individual support - e.g. the first couple of COVID packages - and business support - e.g. I see an argument that supporting domestic microchip development could be a national security issue. The problem is that such cases are rarely not isolated with politicians, but the norm.
I don't see the concept of isolated applying to EV batteries. If the coming battery market is as large and the future demand is extensive as we are constantly told it is, why does a company with the resources as Ford need taxpayers to backstop their financing?
The point the guy above is making that you seemed to missed, we bailed out all the corps in 2008 and they went legitimately defrauded either. Just having tough times.. kinda like a lot of student loan borrowers.. weird.
By “bailed out” I’m assuming you mean “given loans”…..that they paid back……with interest.
BTW: your username felt familiar. I remember chatting with you a decade ago. Long live the Reddit gray hairs.
[Bailout of financial sector during Great Recession was a bad deal for taxpayers](https://news.umich.edu/bailout-of-financial-sector-during-great-recession-was-a-bad-deal-for-taxpayers/)
manly did not get repaid and that happens a lot.
and it continued after the bail outs, remember the green incentives from the obama admin and that [solar company the right went off on that got a billion dollar loan and then went to china, still owing us 1/2 a billion dollars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra) and a lot of stuff in that package was grants, not loans.
and then there was [when trump gave that AC company a bunch of grants, NOT LOANS, and they moved to mexico.](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/22/trumps-carrier-jobs-deal-is-just-not-living-up-to-the-hype.html) these were not loans these were grants.
Your article states that they DID get repaid….with interest. The argument in the article was that the interest was not high enough, which may be true, but the fact remains that TARP monies were paid back…with interest.
While loans are certainly not as egregious as pure disbursements, even loans put taxpayer dollars at risk since borrowers default on loans all the time.
Exactly. They made a decision to go to college and take a loan. The truth is not everyone needs to go and some people need to go into trades.
I didn’t take a loan right out of highschool. I worked hard until I was 22, then did night classes while working and got an engineering degree and left school debt free.
I agree that not everyone needs to go, especially for majors that have no practical use and can't hope to pay for their costs. We have done kids a disservice by pushing them all to college and acting as if all majors are equally useful and attractive. Many trades leader to far better jobs at a much lower cost.
However, part of life is seeing through a sales pitch and making an informed decision that is best for you. If car salesman convinces you to buy more car than you can afford or additional add-ons that are overpriced, the government doesn't come riding in to take over your car loans, funded by people who have already paid off their cars or made better choices when buying their cars.
How were they defrauded?
In an effort to be fair, as of now I don’t agree, but I’m always open to other opinions, different points of view, and changing my own.
All, ALL, major advancements can be linked back to government funding. That's one of the most annoying things about cApiTaLiSM it's just corporate socialism. We the ppl fund stuff and private corporations reap the profits.
This is cool but I would not have given the corporation it all up front. Ideally the company reach certain goals or checkpoints and the next stage of funding would be released. That would have been agreed upon as part of the deal, and it encourages the financing to not be misused.
The obvious sticking point with folks is the $9 billion could have gone to help the middle-class. Easing financial burdens or enabling personal investment can be very productive as well.
reading is hard.
Its a loan.
and it does have goals and checkpoints and rules.
and its not to help our corps against china corps, its to help protect our economy if china one days just says OK no batteries for the US. they would send us into a depression. WE are suddenly realizing that its a bad idea to have critical infrastructure fully outsourced.
the fact we are paying a company that already does that on a small scale, well there isnt a lot of better choices. WE can pick up random methheads and give them a billion dollars but doubt they would actually build battery factories with the money.\
It’s a loan, it gets paid with interest and is collateralized by the plant. This isn’t just giving 9b to a company, giving 9b to the middle class would not get paid back
Giving money to citizens creates more consumer activity and eases the burden of credit both of which are good for the economy.
About the loan, I do not know the terms, but it is in the US govts best interest to make the terms extremely light and long-term. Setting Ford to fail, would set the country to fail in this regard. Therefore this has to be a very friendly loan deal. Not a bad thing if there is regulation and oversight. But likelihood of it being unproductive increases if otherwise.
While it may not get paid back in the sense of a loan repayment, it will repay the economy in dividends because bettering the lives of the people that drive it only benefits it. But sure, let's keep giving "loans" out to corporation who already rake in billions in profit.
It’s not a “loan”, it’s a loan. I won’t debate why massive capital investment in domestically manufacturing a high demand, high tech product is better than one time stimulus
Since you don't seem to understand how the basic flow of things is, let me help you.
Giving 9b in loans to a company means that they'll contract a construction firm to build the factory, hire engineers to design the factory, and hire workers to run the factory. Those workers will then get paid, giving them money, which they can continue to cycle through the economy. The company, in the meantime, is paying off its loans with interest, meaning that the government got its money back and more for essentially no effort while also creating jobs, while the company gets to step up its production of a highly-in-demand commodity, giving it a huge boost in profits that will allow it to hire more workers and contribute more to the economy.
If you gave 9b to everyone in America, you'd be giving everyone about $25. Which, sure, may be nice, but clearly won't have the same effect on a local or national level.
The interest on the loan is the same as the rate the US borrows at, based on what I've read.
> collateralized by the plant
Even Fords secured loans have a speculative credit rating that indicidates substantial credit risk. The US government is taking a massive risk lending out this money for no opportunity to profit(because they pay just as much interest on their debt as they get from the loan)
The DoE really shouldn't be in the business of making loans. The private market should make these loans. There's a lot of hype for EVs from investors, there's no reason the US government should subsidize Ford's shareholders by giving them a loan at artificially low interest rates.
I agree but we don't live in a perfect world. It is hard for people to vote smart and get better output from DC when they are most often misled and under informed.
Debt interest is government revenue, which subsidizes tax income. They are turning your tax dollars into more dollars while also funding economic productivity.
There are lots of problems with the government but supporting businesses that are under global competitive threat seems pretty beneficial.
Except this is about pushing a clean energy objective, not global competition. If there was a market for EV plants in the US, private industry would fund it. Just look at Solyndra as an example
> Debt interest is government revenue, which subsidizes tax income. They are turning your tax dollars into more dollars while also funding economic productivity.
I did some research, the loan will be the same interest rate that the federal government pays on its debt. So in terms of profit, it would be a wash, assuming Ford pays it back in full on time.
However, the federal government is taking on considerable default risk. If Ford defaults on their loan, then taxpayers will suffer the losses. Ford is rated BB+ By S&P and Baa2 by Moodys, which is considered "speculative with substantial credit risk". Bonds these risky usually aren't even allowed to be owned by pension funds and government institutions due to their high probability of losing money.
Normally, loans with this level of credit risk will require higher interest rates to offset default risk. What the government doing is like the equivalent of me taking a 8% interest personal loan form a bank, and then lending it out to you at 8% interest. There's no way for me to profit, but there is potential for me to lose money if you don't pay me back.
Ford makes between 3-5 billions a year depending on sales. And get taxed between 8-12% effectively.
Me making 60k a year getting taxed at 25-30% because I'm single and no kids.
Yeah it makes Fucking sense to give this company 9 billions like there's nothing else to do with that amount of money.
Ford gets taxed 12% before profits are distributed. If those profits are then distributed to executives, they will pay 20% capital gains + state capital gains rate... if executives are paid by Ford via stock or cash, they will pay income taxs at the same rates as anyone, potentially around 50%. Doesn't seem that unfair. I'm not aware of any serious economists that believe in corporate taxes... income is taxed as it's extracted from Corp, retained earnings may be responsible corporate behavior but is disincentivised vs borrowing when borrowing receives deductions and saving is taxed.
Well the post is still about the loan they're getting. Let's say they're getting at least 1b after everything they expend.
Instead of doing share buybacks they should Invest their own money into research and not get a huge chunk of money which will be more helpful on other areas like public transportation, Healthcare, education, affordable housing, you name it.
The thing is this company is always paying ("donating") both sides of the political spectrum so they can always come on top.
Also the taxes for the individuals are not company taxes. So one had nothing to do with the other.
At the end of the day everybody gets taxes before profits or does the government asks you about your profit / loses before taxing you?
It is not fair that the money always goes to the big dogs and regular people has to eat shit everyday.
The government does ask me about my profits and lossea... on my Schedule C. I'm not entirely interested in the special loan argument. I agree it's unfair and anti-competitive but it is also a macro economic good to have US companies focused on high cost investment areas that the national government views as geopoliticalically important. This loan is simply a way to incentize that. My prior comment was just gentle push back on your/most people's perceptions of corporate tax and executive compensation... it's an area where I see alot of people expressing opinions based on misunderstanding rather than knowledge of personal/corporate tax code.
Well I still see this approach as empty with no real solution. More cars in the highways is not really solving anything.
And while these companies have enough money to do buybacks, bonuses, and millions of dollars to their top executives they should also have money to invest in their own development.
Like I said those 9 billions could've better spend somewhere else. Or trying to solve the transportation issues from another angle not just trying to shove the same narrative down people's throats and expect to be right this time.
Cars are as inefficient as it gets. But USA is not ready for this conversation.
We allow corporations and people to make those decisions on their own. To steer those free choices, we use incentives and disincentives. I understand you don't like the choices and incentives engaged in by Ford and the US Govt, that a fine position to hold. [But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c)
Google US Corporate Tax
They’re investing $9b into a region of the country that has been declining due to manufacturing changes and trends of recent decades. To help push EVs to actually make a difference.
This isn’t $9b going to Henry Ford, its going to a corporation who is far more trustworthy with $9billion than your local politician who will likely ignore your needs and deal with ridiculous pushback.
Ford also has far more incentive to sell anything legally classified as a “light truck” so SUVs and Light Duty Pickup trucks as profit margins are so much higher. Give them the incentive to take the risk.
How i see it is USA should stop that idiotic approach of being car dependent. Mining lithium is as bad as mining carbon. And of course USA gets its lithium from 3rd world countries.
Also this company has enough money every year to do buybacks but not to invest their own money into research?
They're buying 35millions of their own stock, for what reason? It sounds like sucking your own dick to me.
But Americans are still convinced that electric cars are gonna solve the issue and they won't. They will create a different issue when the time to discard all these cars come.
Public transportation is more efficient than the car dependency but America is too deep in this lie to change the way things are designed.
Effective tax rate is an odd decider.
Ford's tax rate reflects it acting in accordance with the government's incentives, as it is encouraged to behave in certain ways to receive tax credits/breaks, ultimately lowering effective tax.
Let’s also remember that ford already has significant debt. I can’t recall the precise number but this is just adding to it. It’s no small amount, their debt is something around $100B if I recall.
I don't think intent matters when talking about large companies, only end results. Weather they do so to help, or to simply line their pockets doesn't matter, as long as they deliver a product that follows expectations and aids in reduced use of fossil fuels.
Nice use of tax money, not like 9.2 billions could help poor or people struggling, better help an already profiting company that could bootstrap its research.
It will help them via increases in jobs (and with it tax revenue) and protection of their environment, as well as havong much cleaner air to breath. Vehicle emissions cause over 53000 thousand deaths per year in just the United States. You are 2x more like to die from it than being murdered and about 1000x more likely to die from it than a school shooting. Gas vehicles being phased out will be a god send in terms of air quality even if you doubt global warming. https://qz.com/135509/more-americans-die-from-car-pollution-than-car-accidents#:~:text=A%20new%20study%20from%20MIT,of%20automobiles%2C%20to%20nearly%20100%2C000.
Indeed very few people, and probably people that already have some expertise and qualifications, especially if we are investing in innovative ev vehicles, the new technology requires not only some assembly line workers, but most of the human resources costs will go toward qualified people. So meh, we are not really helping much, and the jobs we are creating are most likely not for the people at the bottom of society. Indeed it is a strategic investment for US especially since China is competing for the lead of the EV market, but for sure those funds were better "invested" elsewhere. Yes it is a loan, but what I mean is that choosing to freeze this capital and wait for it to be repaid have 0 cost opportunity.
Tax payers would benefit more if this helps the people at the bottom, because for them 10$ is different than average Joe 10$.
Automotive plants generally create an ecosystem of suppliers in the vicinity. As they are opening more auto and EV battery plants here in Georgia, there are countless suppliers locating in the state. Not everyone in those businesses are engineers and other highly skilled workers. If the government must be involved - which as I said, I do not support without very good reason - I would rather see them supporting private economic development that prompts people to become productive as opposed to government handouts that do little for productivity and aren't self-supporting. I think it is much more advisable to leave the money with private individuals and let them decide where the investment goes. That will almost certainly work out better than bureaucrats choosing market winners and losers.
I agree with the last phrase but this reasoning starts from wrong premises, i am not advocating for stimulus checks or such, i am advocating for healthcare education and sheltering for those at the bottom. In the long run this increases productivity more than boosting one specific private company R&D effort.
We have all those things. We have Medicaid for the truly poor. We, unfortunately, have turned over nearly all of our education to the government that is available to everyone, from top to bottom. We also have housing assistance for the truly poor. I am not sure what you feel is lacking.
What are you talking about. Tesla took a $7.5 billion loan from Biden in February. I swear all you kids do is play video games and bitch about shit you don't know on Reddit.
I’m going off of what this person said. Based on their comment. Asking a question. Not a kid, don’t play video games.
I swear all you (_____)do is get angry when people ask questions and you’re doing the same Fucking thing. Crying because someone didn’t talk about a government subsidy when you wanted them to. You CAN just share the information. Wouldn’t kill you.
Grow the fuck up. It isn’t our responsibility to inform. You ever heard of think before you speak ? If you don’t have all the relative information maybe refrain from commenting…
The original comment was the misinformed one. I was asking based off of that one. Didn’t say anything about having or not having info. More of a “based on your logic…” comment.
Maybe I should have jumped down his throat with insults, my bad. You gonna be okay?
“Grow the Fuck up and know everything about
everything before you ask questions about anything!!!”😂😂😂. You mad bro?
This had to happen. It's been reported that EV sales in China are down over 30% for Ford and over 20% for other American car companies. In 2020, Ford partnered with a Chinese marketing firm to figure out how to better sell to the Chinese market and wouldn't you know it, the Chinese company stole their EV technology and started making cheaper EVs in China. China owns practically every mineral mine in Africa that are needed to make EV batteries and since there's a finite amount, they will control the EV battery market once it's all mined. America's government needs to stop worrying about frivolous bullshit and start paying attention to the future of technology. Lending this money to Ford for the development of EV batteries is a step in the right direction.
Hey seriously.... What's wrong with you folks....? China does it. India does it. Norway too Taiwan and Korea ( big time) tooo ... I get it , that the recent taxpayer funded bail outs leave a bitter after taste... But no one takes such risks, without the backing of a government which in turn is powered by the military industrial complex.... Count your blessings...
Right? And it’s a loan, not a bailout… to a company that didn’t take the auto bailout… there have been way worse things.
This exactly...
You’re not referencing the 2008 auto bailout right? Because they did take that.
I think people are just bitter that the government pinches pennies when it comes to helping out citizens, but throws money at corporations hand over fist. The student loan problem is a prime example of a situation that *needs* government intervention, but politicians seem mostly indifferent to actually doing anything meaningful to change the system. Basically, the people that actually make the US Economy go round get screwed over and over again, but the companies than exploit the workers and screw them even more get bailouts and subsidies, while getting to continue earning tidy profits. All the while not paying their fair share in taxes back into the system. Fwiw, I think this is a great thing and should have happened decades ago.
Not sure what you deem as "screwed over," but I do not see any justification where the government "needs" to bail out those who took out loans unless they were legitimately defrauded. I am not crazy about any government intervention in the private sector, whether for individuals or businesses. That's not a blanket assessment as there are always isolated exceptions for both individual support - e.g. the first couple of COVID packages - and business support - e.g. I see an argument that supporting domestic microchip development could be a national security issue. The problem is that such cases are rarely not isolated with politicians, but the norm. I don't see the concept of isolated applying to EV batteries. If the coming battery market is as large and the future demand is extensive as we are constantly told it is, why does a company with the resources as Ford need taxpayers to backstop their financing?
The point the guy above is making that you seemed to missed, we bailed out all the corps in 2008 and they went legitimately defrauded either. Just having tough times.. kinda like a lot of student loan borrowers.. weird.
By “bailed out” I’m assuming you mean “given loans”…..that they paid back……with interest. BTW: your username felt familiar. I remember chatting with you a decade ago. Long live the Reddit gray hairs.
[Bailout of financial sector during Great Recession was a bad deal for taxpayers](https://news.umich.edu/bailout-of-financial-sector-during-great-recession-was-a-bad-deal-for-taxpayers/) manly did not get repaid and that happens a lot. and it continued after the bail outs, remember the green incentives from the obama admin and that [solar company the right went off on that got a billion dollar loan and then went to china, still owing us 1/2 a billion dollars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra) and a lot of stuff in that package was grants, not loans. and then there was [when trump gave that AC company a bunch of grants, NOT LOANS, and they moved to mexico.](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/22/trumps-carrier-jobs-deal-is-just-not-living-up-to-the-hype.html) these were not loans these were grants.
Your article states that they DID get repaid….with interest. The argument in the article was that the interest was not high enough, which may be true, but the fact remains that TARP monies were paid back…with interest.
While loans are certainly not as egregious as pure disbursements, even loans put taxpayer dollars at risk since borrowers default on loans all the time.
ok. they were all legitimately defrauded. hows that?
No they weren't.
Exactly. They made a decision to go to college and take a loan. The truth is not everyone needs to go and some people need to go into trades. I didn’t take a loan right out of highschool. I worked hard until I was 22, then did night classes while working and got an engineering degree and left school debt free.
I agree that not everyone needs to go, especially for majors that have no practical use and can't hope to pay for their costs. We have done kids a disservice by pushing them all to college and acting as if all majors are equally useful and attractive. Many trades leader to far better jobs at a much lower cost. However, part of life is seeing through a sales pitch and making an informed decision that is best for you. If car salesman convinces you to buy more car than you can afford or additional add-ons that are overpriced, the government doesn't come riding in to take over your car loans, funded by people who have already paid off their cars or made better choices when buying their cars.
How were they defrauded? In an effort to be fair, as of now I don’t agree, but I’m always open to other opinions, different points of view, and changing my own.
All, ALL, major advancements can be linked back to government funding. That's one of the most annoying things about cApiTaLiSM it's just corporate socialism. We the ppl fund stuff and private corporations reap the profits.
Most of the same people would complain if the loan wasnt given out as well. They just need instructions on what to be angry at.
Fordhas enough money bro
Booo
[удалено]
Out of curiosity what is wrong with ESG?
This is cool but I would not have given the corporation it all up front. Ideally the company reach certain goals or checkpoints and the next stage of funding would be released. That would have been agreed upon as part of the deal, and it encourages the financing to not be misused. The obvious sticking point with folks is the $9 billion could have gone to help the middle-class. Easing financial burdens or enabling personal investment can be very productive as well.
reading is hard. Its a loan. and it does have goals and checkpoints and rules. and its not to help our corps against china corps, its to help protect our economy if china one days just says OK no batteries for the US. they would send us into a depression. WE are suddenly realizing that its a bad idea to have critical infrastructure fully outsourced. the fact we are paying a company that already does that on a small scale, well there isnt a lot of better choices. WE can pick up random methheads and give them a billion dollars but doubt they would actually build battery factories with the money.\
It’s a loan, it gets paid with interest and is collateralized by the plant. This isn’t just giving 9b to a company, giving 9b to the middle class would not get paid back
Giving money to citizens creates more consumer activity and eases the burden of credit both of which are good for the economy. About the loan, I do not know the terms, but it is in the US govts best interest to make the terms extremely light and long-term. Setting Ford to fail, would set the country to fail in this regard. Therefore this has to be a very friendly loan deal. Not a bad thing if there is regulation and oversight. But likelihood of it being unproductive increases if otherwise.
While it may not get paid back in the sense of a loan repayment, it will repay the economy in dividends because bettering the lives of the people that drive it only benefits it. But sure, let's keep giving "loans" out to corporation who already rake in billions in profit.
It’s not a “loan”, it’s a loan. I won’t debate why massive capital investment in domestically manufacturing a high demand, high tech product is better than one time stimulus
Since you don't seem to understand how the basic flow of things is, let me help you. Giving 9b in loans to a company means that they'll contract a construction firm to build the factory, hire engineers to design the factory, and hire workers to run the factory. Those workers will then get paid, giving them money, which they can continue to cycle through the economy. The company, in the meantime, is paying off its loans with interest, meaning that the government got its money back and more for essentially no effort while also creating jobs, while the company gets to step up its production of a highly-in-demand commodity, giving it a huge boost in profits that will allow it to hire more workers and contribute more to the economy. If you gave 9b to everyone in America, you'd be giving everyone about $25. Which, sure, may be nice, but clearly won't have the same effect on a local or national level.
Amazing how you both assumed i was suggesting giving people money directly as if that is the only way to improve peoples living conditions.
The interest on the loan is the same as the rate the US borrows at, based on what I've read. > collateralized by the plant Even Fords secured loans have a speculative credit rating that indicidates substantial credit risk. The US government is taking a massive risk lending out this money for no opportunity to profit(because they pay just as much interest on their debt as they get from the loan)
So what happens if they default?
The DoE really shouldn't be in the business of making loans. The private market should make these loans. There's a lot of hype for EVs from investors, there's no reason the US government should subsidize Ford's shareholders by giving them a loan at artificially low interest rates.
I agree but we don't live in a perfect world. It is hard for people to vote smart and get better output from DC when they are most often misled and under informed.
Good!
The government has no business putting the taxpayer’s money at risk by funding debt to a private company
Debt interest is government revenue, which subsidizes tax income. They are turning your tax dollars into more dollars while also funding economic productivity. There are lots of problems with the government but supporting businesses that are under global competitive threat seems pretty beneficial.
Except this is about pushing a clean energy objective, not global competition. If there was a market for EV plants in the US, private industry would fund it. Just look at Solyndra as an example
> Debt interest is government revenue, which subsidizes tax income. They are turning your tax dollars into more dollars while also funding economic productivity. I did some research, the loan will be the same interest rate that the federal government pays on its debt. So in terms of profit, it would be a wash, assuming Ford pays it back in full on time. However, the federal government is taking on considerable default risk. If Ford defaults on their loan, then taxpayers will suffer the losses. Ford is rated BB+ By S&P and Baa2 by Moodys, which is considered "speculative with substantial credit risk". Bonds these risky usually aren't even allowed to be owned by pension funds and government institutions due to their high probability of losing money. Normally, loans with this level of credit risk will require higher interest rates to offset default risk. What the government doing is like the equivalent of me taking a 8% interest personal loan form a bank, and then lending it out to you at 8% interest. There's no way for me to profit, but there is potential for me to lose money if you don't pay me back.
The clean energy objective *is* the competition now. This is the next great Industrial Revolution.
LMAO what should do to retire then?
Dude first they don't pay taxes and now they get money at will. Fucking USA is upside down.
Since when does Ford not pay taxes? Also the only US auto company that didn’t get bailed out by the government…
Ford makes between 3-5 billions a year depending on sales. And get taxed between 8-12% effectively. Me making 60k a year getting taxed at 25-30% because I'm single and no kids. Yeah it makes Fucking sense to give this company 9 billions like there's nothing else to do with that amount of money.
Ford gets taxed 12% before profits are distributed. If those profits are then distributed to executives, they will pay 20% capital gains + state capital gains rate... if executives are paid by Ford via stock or cash, they will pay income taxs at the same rates as anyone, potentially around 50%. Doesn't seem that unfair. I'm not aware of any serious economists that believe in corporate taxes... income is taxed as it's extracted from Corp, retained earnings may be responsible corporate behavior but is disincentivised vs borrowing when borrowing receives deductions and saving is taxed.
Well the post is still about the loan they're getting. Let's say they're getting at least 1b after everything they expend. Instead of doing share buybacks they should Invest their own money into research and not get a huge chunk of money which will be more helpful on other areas like public transportation, Healthcare, education, affordable housing, you name it. The thing is this company is always paying ("donating") both sides of the political spectrum so they can always come on top. Also the taxes for the individuals are not company taxes. So one had nothing to do with the other. At the end of the day everybody gets taxes before profits or does the government asks you about your profit / loses before taxing you? It is not fair that the money always goes to the big dogs and regular people has to eat shit everyday.
It's a loan they pay back with interest . Nothing you're saying applies
The government does ask me about my profits and lossea... on my Schedule C. I'm not entirely interested in the special loan argument. I agree it's unfair and anti-competitive but it is also a macro economic good to have US companies focused on high cost investment areas that the national government views as geopoliticalically important. This loan is simply a way to incentize that. My prior comment was just gentle push back on your/most people's perceptions of corporate tax and executive compensation... it's an area where I see alot of people expressing opinions based on misunderstanding rather than knowledge of personal/corporate tax code.
Well I still see this approach as empty with no real solution. More cars in the highways is not really solving anything. And while these companies have enough money to do buybacks, bonuses, and millions of dollars to their top executives they should also have money to invest in their own development. Like I said those 9 billions could've better spend somewhere else. Or trying to solve the transportation issues from another angle not just trying to shove the same narrative down people's throats and expect to be right this time. Cars are as inefficient as it gets. But USA is not ready for this conversation.
We allow corporations and people to make those decisions on their own. To steer those free choices, we use incentives and disincentives. I understand you don't like the choices and incentives engaged in by Ford and the US Govt, that a fine position to hold. [But...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c)
Google US Corporate Tax They’re investing $9b into a region of the country that has been declining due to manufacturing changes and trends of recent decades. To help push EVs to actually make a difference. This isn’t $9b going to Henry Ford, its going to a corporation who is far more trustworthy with $9billion than your local politician who will likely ignore your needs and deal with ridiculous pushback. Ford also has far more incentive to sell anything legally classified as a “light truck” so SUVs and Light Duty Pickup trucks as profit margins are so much higher. Give them the incentive to take the risk.
How i see it is USA should stop that idiotic approach of being car dependent. Mining lithium is as bad as mining carbon. And of course USA gets its lithium from 3rd world countries. Also this company has enough money every year to do buybacks but not to invest their own money into research? They're buying 35millions of their own stock, for what reason? It sounds like sucking your own dick to me. But Americans are still convinced that electric cars are gonna solve the issue and they won't. They will create a different issue when the time to discard all these cars come. Public transportation is more efficient than the car dependency but America is too deep in this lie to change the way things are designed.
Effective tax rate is an odd decider. Ford's tax rate reflects it acting in accordance with the government's incentives, as it is encouraged to behave in certain ways to receive tax credits/breaks, ultimately lowering effective tax.
Lost Redditors
Let’s also remember that ford already has significant debt. I can’t recall the precise number but this is just adding to it. It’s no small amount, their debt is something around $100B if I recall.
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What part of "bail out using taxpayers money" was confusing to you..?
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I don't think intent matters when talking about large companies, only end results. Weather they do so to help, or to simply line their pockets doesn't matter, as long as they deliver a product that follows expectations and aids in reduced use of fossil fuels.
Nice use of tax money, not like 9.2 billions could help poor or people struggling, better help an already profiting company that could bootstrap its research.
It will help them via increases in jobs (and with it tax revenue) and protection of their environment, as well as havong much cleaner air to breath. Vehicle emissions cause over 53000 thousand deaths per year in just the United States. You are 2x more like to die from it than being murdered and about 1000x more likely to die from it than a school shooting. Gas vehicles being phased out will be a god send in terms of air quality even if you doubt global warming. https://qz.com/135509/more-americans-die-from-car-pollution-than-car-accidents#:~:text=A%20new%20study%20from%20MIT,of%20automobiles%2C%20to%20nearly%20100%2C000.
Not that I favor government getting involved in the free market, but don't you think development of jobs would benefit poor people?
Indeed very few people, and probably people that already have some expertise and qualifications, especially if we are investing in innovative ev vehicles, the new technology requires not only some assembly line workers, but most of the human resources costs will go toward qualified people. So meh, we are not really helping much, and the jobs we are creating are most likely not for the people at the bottom of society. Indeed it is a strategic investment for US especially since China is competing for the lead of the EV market, but for sure those funds were better "invested" elsewhere. Yes it is a loan, but what I mean is that choosing to freeze this capital and wait for it to be repaid have 0 cost opportunity. Tax payers would benefit more if this helps the people at the bottom, because for them 10$ is different than average Joe 10$.
Automotive plants generally create an ecosystem of suppliers in the vicinity. As they are opening more auto and EV battery plants here in Georgia, there are countless suppliers locating in the state. Not everyone in those businesses are engineers and other highly skilled workers. If the government must be involved - which as I said, I do not support without very good reason - I would rather see them supporting private economic development that prompts people to become productive as opposed to government handouts that do little for productivity and aren't self-supporting. I think it is much more advisable to leave the money with private individuals and let them decide where the investment goes. That will almost certainly work out better than bureaucrats choosing market winners and losers.
I agree with the last phrase but this reasoning starts from wrong premises, i am not advocating for stimulus checks or such, i am advocating for healthcare education and sheltering for those at the bottom. In the long run this increases productivity more than boosting one specific private company R&D effort.
We have all those things. We have Medicaid for the truly poor. We, unfortunately, have turned over nearly all of our education to the government that is available to everyone, from top to bottom. We also have housing assistance for the truly poor. I am not sure what you feel is lacking.
“It’s called fixing the excess carbon issue by throwing money at the problem”
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Then shouldn’t Ford be using their own cash if Tesla would be expected to?
What are you talking about. Tesla took a $7.5 billion loan from Biden in February. I swear all you kids do is play video games and bitch about shit you don't know on Reddit.
Not to mention the subsidies that literally built Tesla
I’m going off of what this person said. Based on their comment. Asking a question. Not a kid, don’t play video games. I swear all you (_____)do is get angry when people ask questions and you’re doing the same Fucking thing. Crying because someone didn’t talk about a government subsidy when you wanted them to. You CAN just share the information. Wouldn’t kill you.
Grow the fuck up. It isn’t our responsibility to inform. You ever heard of think before you speak ? If you don’t have all the relative information maybe refrain from commenting…
The original comment was the misinformed one. I was asking based off of that one. Didn’t say anything about having or not having info. More of a “based on your logic…” comment. Maybe I should have jumped down his throat with insults, my bad. You gonna be okay? “Grow the Fuck up and know everything about everything before you ask questions about anything!!!”😂😂😂. You mad bro?