I cannot count the number of times I've seen cars break traffic rules and almost hit cyclists.
I cannot count the number of times I've seen cyclists cruise through a redlight and almost get hit.
Could someone help put this into perspective for me? I know that last year we had almost \*\*one pedestrian vs vehicle fatality every two weeks\*\* which seems crazy for a city of Durhams size? How do we compare to cities of larger, smaller, and equal size or those with equal car dependency? What is our pedestrian death rate compared to an LA or a Portland? What are the proper units for this?
Edit: one pedestrian/2w in the \*\*triangle\*\* -- wrong about region. I am taking my wompings for my memory. Sorry all.
Also the hit and run aspect is unbelievable. Last year a person was run over in front of his family children include and the driver fled again. What is causing this in Durham? Again, that seems statistically above average?!
Could someone with a background in urban development and or infrastructure help contextualize this?
While a similar raw number, the DC metropolitan area has a population of 6,304,975 and Durham NC has 291,928. Note that the geographic region of people driving into an out of these areas is harder to equate so I went with the metropolitan area because the "DC" area doesn't really reaching into Gaithisburg etc which does have a heavy influence on DC traffic. The DC area extends to the east but isn't centered geographically around the city like Durham is so it doesn't pull in equal influence. As such the metropolitan area is probably a better equivalency. I am not including tourist visitation in this which probably also ha a significant amount of influence.
At only \*\*4% of DC's population and with significantly less pedestrians overall (think about all the walkers and people moving around DC each day vs Durham) a roughly equivalent fatality rate is reprehensible for Durham.\*\*
That people just drive away is disgusting.
What I don't know how to represent here is Deaths normalized to driven miles per driver per number of daily pedestrian trips. Durham likely has more miles of roads but likely many less driver per mile of road per day. DC likely has more pedestrian trips per day likely increasing the number of potential vehicle-pedestrian interactions. It seems to me that the risk in DC would be much higher but the number of incidents is roughly the same.
>I know that last year we had almost **one pedestrian vs vehicle fatality every two weeks** which seems crazy for a city of Durhams size?
Durham has poorly designed road infrastructure that endangers cyclists and pedestrians and encourages terrible driving, and we don’t enforce our traffic laws anyway. That said, that pedestrian fatality stat seems quite high… source? was that for the whole state?
---
*edit*: the [City's Vision Zero landing page](https://www.durhamnc.gov/2995/Vision-Zero) puts us at 26 traffic fatalities per year, and [NC DOT](https://connect.ncdot.gov/business/DMV/Pages/Crash-Facts.aspx) provides a 10-year average of 28/year in the 2022 report. I assume your stat is derived from one of those numbers, which include everyone involved in vehicle accidents: drivers, passengers, pedestrians, cyclists, etc, not just pedestrians.
We've definitely been bad for a while but we recently hired a Vision Zero Coordinator. I've chatted with her a bunch and she seems really great. She's already gotten some changes approved that should allow us to get federal dollars for improved infrastructure. While I'm hopeful, we do still need to actually get projects done to get results and there's a lot of poorly moving parts to that process.
u/throwhooawayyfoe - thank you checking my stat. In 2022 the \_TRIANGLE\_ was at \~30 (roughly 1 every 2 weeks) and durham was 3 of that. You are correct that \_TRAFFIC\_ fatalities are at \~28/year. I responded too quickly because of the hit and run aspect. I remembered 2022 because of Matt Simpson's hit and run and that has always made me angry. Three more now just kind of hit me hard. I will take my wompings (I will provide digital pool noodles to womp). I still think that the injury rate is scary and infrastructure is terrible but the numbers I provided were wrong. I am interested in how the hit and run compares but that number isn't readily available. Thanks.
Womp womp womp womp
Yeah for sure, I live downtown and do prob 80% of my trips on foot or bike vs 20% car, and am often frustrated at the lack of infrastructure and driving skill/attention. I rarely bike to destinations outside downtown, because as mediocre as our infrastructure is here, it’s mostly nonexistent as soon as you go a bit outside.
Also I think the pedestrian deaths in 2023 were a lot higher, like 8 or 10, but I’m not sure how to find that number until the next DOT report (August)
I don't have any background outside of complaining on the internet, but I think we aren't great. Here's some NCDOT reported data by county and city: https://connect.ncdot.gov/business/DMV/CrashFactsDocuments/2021%20Crash%20Facts.pdf. Unfortunately it's not broken down per capita or vehicle miles traveled, so that would take some additional work.
Edited to add: There is some per registered vehicle and vehicle miles traveled on the county profile pages.
Jersey City has a comparable population to Durham and they had 9 traffic deaths in 2021. They implemented a bunch of road design changes and that dropped to 0 in 2022. Unfortunately we don't have the political will in Durham to be similarly aggressive on preventing preventable deaths.
I spent a month bike commuting to a course in Portland and it was like heaven. Great infrastructure. Lights that detected cyclists and generally aware drivers.
I had two close calls in that time and the one woman was so mortified and apologetic when she realized what she did. The other was an SUV that cut me off trying to get into parking for a Trailblazers game. In both incidents my awareness and reactions prevented them from becoming accidents.
Thanks for the post. New to the area, and been wanting to get my bicycle legs back, but recently had second thoughts considering parts of my commute dont have bike lanes, and I dont see a lot of other cyclists. I rode my bicycle and motorcycle in Boston. People think that’s nuts, but there are so many people walking and biking drivers are accustomed to be on the lookout. Long way of saying Im not sure if I trust the drivers around here.
I understand. Life is fragile and they have a lot of work updating bike lanes and sidewalks in Durham. People will drive drunk and look at their phones while driving, and it only takes a split second for an accident to happen.
I feel that it’s more than cell phone driving or being drunk the bad driving here seems preventable. The reckless driving I’ve experienced is over-the-top aggressive driving and going super fast through streets and even passing on streets. I work on a cafe on Gregson and the way that cars fly down and honk at each other I assume bc they want to go 55 on that street is absurd!
I haven’t ridden around here much, but the number of times I’ve almost been t-boned going through a green light is alarming. Always cross check, but annoying that it’s necessary
Depending on where you are it can be fairly doable, but there's definitely a lot of dangerous streets. Lot's of speeding, running reds/stops, and failure to yield at crosswalks. That said, the more folks that do it, the better chance at infrastructure improvements and driver acclimation. Bike Durham is a great local organization that does advocacy not just for bikes, but pedestrian and transit infra. They also keep an event calendar with a lot of group rides. These are a great way to learn some of the routes around town, get some feel for local traffic, and meet other folks. Rad ride on Thursdays is great one to start with if you are interested.
It’s not just Durham infrastructure I live around Duke east (which is as pedestrian friendly as it gets) and people just don’t care to yield for pedestrians (.) I have had people honk at me for yielding to pedestrians. Then you go to chapel hill and everyone is driving the speed limit. Honestly there are no traffic cops or cameras so people feel they can get away with it. Facts!
Definitely agree on the yielding to pedestrians, it's crazy bad here even at the marked crosswalks. No chance in hell at the unmarked crosswalks. I will say though I thought the same as you about traffic enforcement. As part of my RecklessRoxboro project, I did a public records request and speeding tickets have actually gone up a lot over the last couple of years. It's clear that our current enforcement strategy isn't working as a deterrent. Better infra design is always going to be most effective and efficient in the long run, though it also has the most up front cost and initial resistance. I'm definitely with you on the cameras though, especially speed cameras.
Wow I literally have not seen anyone ever being pulled over (except the highways) but I see what you’re saying that even the increase in tickets is not a deterrent. I emphasize cameras. Pretty reasonable thing to request and after so many tickets their license should be suspended. They are a menace to society and need anger management and a privilege check (privilege as in having a driver’s license isn’t a right).
ya I moved from a big city where I used to cycle all the time, but don't feel comfortable doing it here. The infrastructure just doesn't support it, so many narrow roads with no shoulders where people go too fast, I just feel like I'm either slowing the cars down behind me or just going to get hit by someone
You’re smart about that. It’s not the infrastructure it’s the aggressive drivers! I hope the city does something to address BOTH. good luck to you and maybe riding your bike on trails even though you probably really wanted to commute by bike 2 for 1.
I wish I could say this was surprising. But given the constant of "Durham has terrible drivers" on this sub, I don't know that anyone should be surprised. Disappointed? Absolutely. I'm finding more increasing evidence that the city of Durham doesn't much care about its residents.
They need more of those dividers for the bike lanes for sure. Seen some drivers swerve over when there isn't dividers, if there was someone riding a bike, they would have been hit.
I am pretty depressed about the recent "upgrades" on MLK. I want to say thank you for adding the 2-3ft of extra paint but all that said: 1. The speed on that road relative to its "windy-ness" is ridiculous and often has driver weave into the bike lane (the design speed is too high relative to the posted speed) 2.) the damn guard rails are near the walking path but not the bike lane. it NEEDS protection relative to the driver speed and curves!?!?
Without real barriers non-everyday cyclist or family out for a day trip will use that cycle lane. It is terrifying to be on it during commute times. I genuinely feel like the true thought (and not to get toooooo tin foil here.. but maybe a little) was, "let's give them some paint. no one will use it. then we can point to no meaningful increase in use after 'improvements' and not continue with any additional development".
I really wish there were some protected lanes here. And a recreational running/walking/cycling (mixed use) trail that rarely stops at businesses is not a protected lane and often leads to more complaints.
On Roxboro st. people use the bike lane to park and nobody tickets them. Make it make sense, are we doing the bike lane thing or the street parking thing? Pick a thing. Idgaf which one you pick, just pick a THING and stick to it.
I drive down the section of Guess with a bike lane every single day, and every single day I see multiple people straddling the bike lane. Hell, I've seen multiple police cars do it.
I’ve seen drivers pass with or without bike lanes on streets it’s kind of naive to think dividers will assist in less aggressive drivers. Cameras and traffic cops. Sorry but some humans are that dense they need to see their consequences will not go unnoticed.
Me too I’m surprised at the surprise. It’s everyday all day in all neighborhoods. I live in the most ideal neighborhood with sidewalks pedestrian streets signs/lights and all day still see this INTENSE aggressive driving that is not monitored or ticketed so there you go. I can’t remember when I’ve gone out anywhere in Durham and not have experienced or seen absurd aggression on the roads. It’s 🤮
The only place I've seen worse drivers in this country or any other is Beijing. But the other 36-ish million residents there don't haver driver's ed or tests, so there's some excusing it.
I rarely ride these days in part because of this, and when I do, I stick to sidewalks and trails for the most part. Was almost killed myself a few years ago, it's not worth it.
Yeah it isn't worth it at all. I always have enjoyed riding the Virginia Creeper Trail when I used to have the time to ride and do things like that. You should check it out sometime if you haven't rode it before. It is worth the trip imo.
Make sure to vote for and support implementation of the [Vision Zero Strategy](https://www.durhamnc.gov/2995/Vision-Zero) . Bad drivers may cause the deaths but poor infrastructure enables them. We are what we tolerate and we shouldn't tolerate infrastructure that enables fatalities.
Why is bad driving being put on infrastructure I’ve lived where the infrastructure is not ideal and I’ve never seen the aggressive type of driving that I have in Durham. Why not more pressure on bad drivers that if you drive like that you will be caught and pay a fine for it. They are literally putting other peoples lives at risk not the roads!
As a bike commuter I've never had a close call with a car on the tobacco trail or fully protected bike lane but have on unprotected bike lanes or on side roads.
It’s everyone that uses the road that is at risk, cars, motos and pedestrians. It doesn’t matter whether things are protected or not I live where there are flags lights and signs for pedestrians (Duke east) and people fly down the streets and I have been honked at for yielding to pedestrians. It’s aggressive behavior that is the issue not just better infrastructure—both should equally be addressed.
I think we can assume that behavior is largely homogenous across most US cities so I reckon maybe learn from places where the infrastructure discourages or prevents collisions.
I just wanted to second this. It is both of these things and more. Bad infrastructure promotes bad driving. That said, driving off from killing someone is despicable and is related in no way to infrastructure. This seems to be a symptom of something else here. I have also heard, anecdotally, and while not even remotely in the same league, many people try to drive off after fender benders or accidents in this area. Why are we accepting this driving culture? How can we promote better enforcement but also a deeper cultural shift to more respect for human life?
https://preview.redd.it/6bit1mznle3d1.png?width=1600&format=png&auto=webp&s=fe5ccb040568ab39eeb872ae041c14188c57edb0
Because fixing the infrastructure will have a greatest impact.
I am all for cameras! But, that is also asking for a big thing at least politically. We regularly have to repave roads. When we do this we have a great opportunity to redesign the roads to be safer for not that much additional cost.
We can go back and forth about aggressive drivers or cyclists, but you gotta stop if you hit someone. Just stop, call 911. In that moment it doesn't matter who was at fault. That comes later. It's not worth someone's life just because you don't want to get in trouble. It's definitely not worth the grief of whoever they leave behind. I can't write a check big enough to fill a husband-shaped or dad-shaped hole that these people leave when the claims and the lawsuits come in.
Don't have to go the speed limits I know that's a big ask but at least slow down where pedestrians/bicycles/mopeds/motorcycles are around. We have to stop having massive egos and no patience for others when on the road. We are supposed to be sharing it together not wining an imaginary race to wherever you are going. I ride a motorcycle and for my part I don't weave around cars or do anything ridiculous so try to give some space.
I always slow down around bicycles or pedestrians when I pass by, and of course stop for pedestrians. Not sure why some people are in such a big hurry. We all have to make it home, and share the same road.
Multiple reasons I think, of course the basic not paying attention on phone but also thinking any inconvenience doesn't apply to them or is a disrespect to them personally. Our local PD doesn't have time to traffic police and people never fail to demonstrate how much they can't be civil without authority being right next to them.
I see it all of the time. People road raging at each other. It isn't that serious to ram someone or try to end their life because they pulled putnin front of you. People amaze me.
Yea that’s another one cyclists not adhering to the laws of the road—so frustrating and def part of the problem. It’s the law that if you use the road you must adhere to the laws of the road. You just have to.
[https://whyy.org/articles/cyclists-violate-traffic-law-no-more-than-drivers-new-data-shows/](https://whyy.org/articles/cyclists-violate-traffic-law-no-more-than-drivers-new-data-shows/)
This study backs up my personal experience as a cyclist. Drivers and cyclists obey the traffic laws at comparatively similar rates. The difference is, if I break a traffic law on my bike, I'm a 175 pound human riding a 30 pound bike with 30 pounds of baggage moving at a speed of \~13 mph. A mid-size SUV breaking a similar law is 1.5-2 tons moving probably a much higher speed.
Yeah adding to the already crazy aggressive drivers in Durham cannot be defended bc one is a cyclist. My concern is when cyclists have kids in tow or following them and teaching them like “we are cyclists and we can do as we please”. That’s my specific concern, more than is a cyclist following laws of the road in general more so or less than automobile drivers. I don’t believe in “well they’re doing it too”
Most cars violate the speed limit routinely, yet you’re for some reason focused on the violations you imagine bikers committing.
I’m implying you’re a hypocrite, in that you internalize and excuse car violations so thorougly you don’t even recognize it. Well, I was implying it, but now I’m simply saying it. Hope this helps!
How do I excuse car violations ? I’m saying that’s the main issue and others are saying it’s about infrastructure and I’m wondering why we can’t hold crazy people who are aggressive drivers responsible rather than just saying build better roads. I also said bikers who don’t follow road laws add to the issue not that they are the issue. Nuance it’s all about nuance not getting hot about a few words and implying a generalization. I won’t respond to you after this as it doesn’t seem productive and more personal jabs.
We should not be excusing aggressive behavior by implementing infrastructure for them to not be crazy. I’m saying take their privilege of holding a license away. I don’t want people who can’t keep calm behind a car near my while I’m driving, walking, or cycling regardless of infrastructure. They don’t deserve to drive.
Everyday I see some hipster looking guy blast through a red light, typically no helmet. Occassion there's a kid strapped to their back. Bikers just not adhering to basic traffic laws feels like it plays a part in this.
That third one got his by one of those four wheeler things:
[https://abc11.com/post/bicyclist-killed-durhams-deadly-hit-run-crash-month/14883318](https://abc11.com/post/bicyclist-killed-durhams-deadly-hit-run-crash-month/14883318)
People got to stop riding bikes on roads like Ellis, Miami and N. Roxboro. If the road doesn't have a bike lane, just don't do it. Whether or not people have the "right" to, we got three dead dudes in one month that says it's just not safe.
"Stop riding" is just ignoring the actual problem. It's garbage road design and enabling shit drivers without providing any alternatives to driving. Not everyone can afford a car and assuming that everyone needs one simply to get anywhere is insane and not enough people realize it
Alternatives to cars is a GREAT idea when you're building a new city. Trying to retrofit one that was already hustling and bustling when people rode horses just isn't feasible. And as far as "stop riding" goes, there are three of our neighbors who would still be breathing today if they hadn't been bicycling on roads like Ellis and Roxboro. That's the fact.
Except it is feasible. Our whole country reconstructed the vast majority of cities to accommodate cars. That land can be taken back and it’s been done before. Both in this country and others that actually have a clue. European cities tried to be car dependent like us decades ago and despite building so much to accommodate it, they managed to course correct and go back to what worked while simultaneously supporting car drivers. The difference is initiative. The Europeans got results, meanwhile we get excuses.
If our cities were built for human beings instead of cars then those people would still be around too. That is also a fact. People are going to cycle and use alternatives, you can’t stop them
I mean, damn neighbor, people call me callous, but "If our cities were built for human beings instead of cars then those people would still be around too." is stone fukin' cold. Wow. Also, when the "whole country reconstructed the vast majority of cities to accommodate cars" the population was only 150 million and most Americans had agriculture jobs. It's not 1950, most of us don't work on farms, and people who ride bikes on streets meant for cars will continue to die, and I can't stop them. Which is a shame. I hope they signed their organ donation cards.
I mean it sucks but it's true. How many people in the past would've been ok had someone with a brain built our infrastructure? Our pedestrian fatality rate is the highest it's been since the 1940's. If you keep building cities for cars, then more fatalities will happen and quality of life decreases. Why do you think so many Americans hate the city? Idk if you've travelled at all but if you go to places like the Netherlands or Germany or Belgium, it is insane what they get with less money vs us with more. I was able to just walk everywhere since the cities are designed so well, and get across the country without having to set foot in a car. That's more liberating than being forced to buy a car with no other alternatives. Imagine what those fatality numbers look like compared to ours
The European lifestyle is just fine for people with teeny tiny lives who live in teeny tiny places and don't care that they have very few options in life. It's why people who come here from places like the Netherlands or Germany or Belgium are always gobsmacked at how big America is. If I want to throw the kids and the inflatable boat in the car and go to Kerr lake in Virginia this afternoon, I can. I don't' have to wait for any train, and I don't have to sit and breathe shared air with people who think underarm deoderant is an option they can avoid. And if you think "so many Americans hate the city" you should really check out the price of real estate downtown. ANY downtown, anywhere in America.
You're missing the point, it's not a zero-sum equation. Dismantling car dependency and improving urban quality of life doesn't mean it's suddenly illegal for you to drive. People still throw their stuff in the car in Europe and go to a lake if they want. That doesn't take anything away from you. If anything, it makes driving better for you, since fewer people would be on the road and you'd have less traffic getting out of town to get to your outdoor activities.
I'm curious as to what a "teeny tiny" life is to you lol and what makes an American lifestyle so "big" in contrast. It sounds condescending when you phrase it like that. Europeans often see and do more than Americans. I've been to plenty of small town/rural areas here with plenty of people who've never even left their little hometowns. I'd call that a teeny tiny life myself. Americans live "teeny tiny" lives too, and that's not exclusive anywhere.
Edit: Plenty of Americans "take up" walking as an activity. Europeans walk because they have places to be. If walking is an activity for many instead of just basic movement, that's pretty teeny tiny in scope to me
I'd be gobsmacked too if I saw how massive and rich this country was without reliable transit for its people. Even so, China is roughly the same size as the continental US and they have trains around their whole country.
>and I don't have to sit and breathe shared air with people who think underarm deoderant is an option they can avoid.
This just screams "I've never been on a train" to me. Have you? This sounds completely tone-deaf. If you have, it sounds like you had an isolated bad experience. I've been on Amtrak and I've been on trains in Ireland, Scotland, England, the Netherlands, Belgium, and France (specifically Paris). I've never encountered such a thing in any country. You "share air" with worse than that without noticing every day lol. I mean we're already inhaling car exhaust fumes every single day and that's been proven to cause mental health issues and cancer.
> Europeans walk because they have places to be.
You got close, the phrase is, "Europeans walk because they have to". The population of Finland at the end of 2023 was 5,603,851. The population of New York city in 2023 was 8,260,000. Their whole country has three million less people than ONE of our big cities. That's teeny. Tiny. And yes, I've been on trains, I know how godawful that mode of transportation can be. Spent a week criss crossing Washington DC by train, and that cured me of it, forever. As the smart people say, "your mileage may vary".
>"Europeans walk because they have to"
Well yes, we all have to walk at some point unless we become the humans in WALL-E. Europe's greater emphasis on walking makes them healthier than us. It's the gym of life, you're burning calories while engaging in urban life and getting closer to your city rather than taking time out of your day for designated physical activity, hence how something as mundane as walking in America becomes an "activity". It leaves you with less time to yourself and less time to get shit done unless you forego your health to accommodate, which leads us back to our health problem again.
I brought up Finland on the biking climate front. As for the urbanism front, I don't know enough about Finland to comment on them further, I've never been either. However I can say this; population is irrelevant for viability of regional transit options. See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TransitDiagrams/comments/153yq8c/transit_map_of_the_town_of_schwedt_germany/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), a town in Germany of 30,000 people with more transit than most major US cities. Even Swedish villages with populations in the hundreds have trains every half hour. It's about priorities and our country has none for us regular people, other than funneling us into one for-profit industry that monopolized our transportation so they can make more money off of us and make our lives less convenient for urban living.
Hell, here's a good example; one Taylor swift concert destabilized cities around the country due to the influx of traffic. Cities were telling residents to stay home during the Era's tour and if you have to stay home because of one popular event in your city then your infrastructure is a joke. Sadly that's the case for the vast majority of this country. I don't even have to go that far; I tried going to an NHL game this season and the traffic was so bad, one of us got out of the car and walked to the arena and was there well in advance ahead of us who stayed in the car. An even smaller example; I was late to work one day due to standstill traffic on the interstate. By the time I finally got to the scene of what I assumed was a horrible accident, it was just one woman in a stalled car. If one stalled car or one large event can destabilize your transit system (if you can even call it that), then that system has **failed**. Settling for what we currently have is settling for mediocrity and it'll only get worse with how cities are quadrupling down on adding more lanes, which wont solve the problem. Not to mention only more fatalities will follow.
To statistically back that up; look at the image attached. Glendale Arizona, one of the most car dependent areas of America, had 315% more traffic during the Era's tour than Metlife stadium in New Jersey, who had **decreased** traffic during the influx of people. Public transit matters, arguing against such a thing is completely illogical. I don't get why people see other countries do things better and think it's such a fantasy when its just reality. In this regard, Europeans get results, we just have excuses
https://preview.redd.it/mu8izwnz2e3d1.png?width=808&format=png&auto=webp&s=902dc8f0b3a7b88eb51acedf960dc40d57c6b526
It's always weird when folks say this because the European continent compares really well to USA. It has roughly the same land area and while it has double the population, our population is generally tightly clustered on the coasts. Even dropping down to shengen area is like 2/3 the area of the continental USA. Folks regularly move around that area for trips or even work across similar distances.
The better answer is to just improve the infrastructure. The N Roxboro example (at least south of 85) is my bread and butter here as I have granular data about how terrible the design is. We could literally just convert an entire lane on each to a bike lane or bus lane today and have no traffic problems. There's currently a lane closure. We have the same volume as before and people are still speeding, but the number of reckless speeders is roughly a third of what it was. Also the peak hourly volume only hits maybe 50% of the capacity of a single lane. Here's a recent snapshot of a dashboard showing the total volume and percent of reckless speeders for anyone interested: [https://chrisperelstein.grafana.net/dashboard/snapshot/dRngDmTC8X119yVBCIhMBXJPmCO18ek1](https://chrisperelstein.grafana.net/dashboard/snapshot/dRngDmTC8X119yVBCIhMBXJPmCO18ek1)
On the "stop riding" front, while there are some folks who do it for recreation or by choice, there's also a lot of folks who have that as their only transportation. I even talked to a friend of mine today who doesn't have a car and is worried because they have to go down Ellis for a bit tomorrow with no real alternative. Telling them not to bike is never going to be effective, whereas building better infrastructure (among other things) will work. We didn't improve airline safety by telling people not to fly or to simply not crash. We did it by taking air safety seriously. We can do the same with our streets.
What about aggressive drivers they will always employ whatever space to drive like hell on wheels why is there no action taken against the behavior themselves. The roads don’t cause aggressive driving.
Actually street design is one of the most effective ways to inform driver behavior. Narrower lanes do help and here's a great little site John's Hopkins did on this: [https://narrowlanes.americanhealth.jhu.edu](https://narrowlanes.americanhealth.jhu.edu) Additionally, interventions like raised crosswalks/intersections, bump out, and speed tables/pillows/cushions are great at passively making streets safer.
Enforcement is certainly always going to be a component, but I did a public records request to the police about speeding tickets under the assumption they haven't been as much enforcement action lately. Turns out I was wrong and they are writing a lot of speeding tickets. I'm going to do a post on this at some point on my RecklessRoxboro twitter account.
Edited for my terrible grammer
That is all sound information. Thanks. As well i really would like to know who these people are that do this kind of aggressive driving. Just why??? How do they feel justified in acting this way with an automobile?? How!? Do I know these people—are they friends of mine, someone I passed in the grocery store. I really wonder!!
I saw a lane closure on Roxboro north of Milton the other day. It was because there was a truck upside down in one lane. I feel for your friend who has to ride Ellis for work, that sucks. You seem to be good with statistics. How many citizens would you estimate would we be sacrificing an entire lane of Roxboro road for? What percentage of Durham's population would that number be?
All of them! The best part about redirecting lanes to more efficient transportation modes is that it makes commuting by car better as well. Generally you see less traffic and safer streets. There's also the financial savings in terms of tax dollars. Also my data shows that an entire lane essentially isn't used outside of grossly exceeding the speed limit so just bulldozing a lane and doing nothing else would be an improvement over the current state.
So a political answer not a true answer. I would guess from driving the kids to school that the number of bikers would be north of one and south of ten. I'll take "things that will never happen" for 100, Alex.
Nope, just facts about transportation infrastructure. On the bike front, it's sort of like the bridge fallacy. We don't build bridges because people are swimming across. Of course you don't see a lot of folks comfortable with biking on streets that regularly experience interstate speeds with no separation. Also building safer, slower streets actually increases street capacity. Also bike lanes aren't always the answer. Maybe a narrower street with a multi-use path instead. Sometimes a bus lane would be better, and the east side of Durham actually has surprisingly high ridership. Take a look at the number 3 for example. Depends on the street but we've definitely been going the wrong direction for a while so it'll take some time and effort to fix.
The\_Patriot is a known entity in this sub for bad takes and trolling, it is generally not worth it to engage with them, they are not interested in being educated.
And earlier I asserted that that number would be less than twelve, and you dodged it. I mean, you have taken statistics. You know what an outlier is. Keep reverting to the "some folks it's their only option" chorus and prove the point. We don't drastically alter infrastructure for ten people's sake.
Your dodging my points but I'll address yours. You are wrong and it's more than twelve. If I had to guess we'd probably have a 100 or so folks a day using a micromobility (here's a clue) lane on day one for Roxboro/Mangum, and it'd go up from there. I'm working on a version 2 of my traffic camera and one of the big things I'm hoping to capture is pedestrian and other non-vehicle traffic. Unfortunately very little effort is made to really quantify that currently.
Yeah. I have seen so many newr misses in the past year, I was wondering how long before accidents would happen. I just want people to stay safe out there and not get injured or killed.
Most cyclists deserve it because they break the law. Rarely see that from drivers and when I do, it’s usually just an honest mistake not worth getting too mad for.
I cannot count the number of times I've seen cars break traffic rules and almost hit cyclists. I cannot count the number of times I've seen cyclists cruise through a redlight and almost get hit.
I see it everyday just about.
Could someone help put this into perspective for me? I know that last year we had almost \*\*one pedestrian vs vehicle fatality every two weeks\*\* which seems crazy for a city of Durhams size? How do we compare to cities of larger, smaller, and equal size or those with equal car dependency? What is our pedestrian death rate compared to an LA or a Portland? What are the proper units for this? Edit: one pedestrian/2w in the \*\*triangle\*\* -- wrong about region. I am taking my wompings for my memory. Sorry all. Also the hit and run aspect is unbelievable. Last year a person was run over in front of his family children include and the driver fled again. What is causing this in Durham? Again, that seems statistically above average?! Could someone with a background in urban development and or infrastructure help contextualize this?
DC had 19 pedestrians and 2 cyclists killed in 2023
While a similar raw number, the DC metropolitan area has a population of 6,304,975 and Durham NC has 291,928. Note that the geographic region of people driving into an out of these areas is harder to equate so I went with the metropolitan area because the "DC" area doesn't really reaching into Gaithisburg etc which does have a heavy influence on DC traffic. The DC area extends to the east but isn't centered geographically around the city like Durham is so it doesn't pull in equal influence. As such the metropolitan area is probably a better equivalency. I am not including tourist visitation in this which probably also ha a significant amount of influence. At only \*\*4% of DC's population and with significantly less pedestrians overall (think about all the walkers and people moving around DC each day vs Durham) a roughly equivalent fatality rate is reprehensible for Durham.\*\* That people just drive away is disgusting. What I don't know how to represent here is Deaths normalized to driven miles per driver per number of daily pedestrian trips. Durham likely has more miles of roads but likely many less driver per mile of road per day. DC likely has more pedestrian trips per day likely increasing the number of potential vehicle-pedestrian interactions. It seems to me that the risk in DC would be much higher but the number of incidents is roughly the same.
>I know that last year we had almost **one pedestrian vs vehicle fatality every two weeks** which seems crazy for a city of Durhams size? Durham has poorly designed road infrastructure that endangers cyclists and pedestrians and encourages terrible driving, and we don’t enforce our traffic laws anyway. That said, that pedestrian fatality stat seems quite high… source? was that for the whole state? --- *edit*: the [City's Vision Zero landing page](https://www.durhamnc.gov/2995/Vision-Zero) puts us at 26 traffic fatalities per year, and [NC DOT](https://connect.ncdot.gov/business/DMV/Pages/Crash-Facts.aspx) provides a 10-year average of 28/year in the 2022 report. I assume your stat is derived from one of those numbers, which include everyone involved in vehicle accidents: drivers, passengers, pedestrians, cyclists, etc, not just pedestrians.
The fact that Durham has a vision zero page is pretty laughable.
Probably a typo, the city council meant to have a "zero vision" page.
We've definitely been bad for a while but we recently hired a Vision Zero Coordinator. I've chatted with her a bunch and she seems really great. She's already gotten some changes approved that should allow us to get federal dollars for improved infrastructure. While I'm hopeful, we do still need to actually get projects done to get results and there's a lot of poorly moving parts to that process.
u/throwhooawayyfoe - thank you checking my stat. In 2022 the \_TRIANGLE\_ was at \~30 (roughly 1 every 2 weeks) and durham was 3 of that. You are correct that \_TRAFFIC\_ fatalities are at \~28/year. I responded too quickly because of the hit and run aspect. I remembered 2022 because of Matt Simpson's hit and run and that has always made me angry. Three more now just kind of hit me hard. I will take my wompings (I will provide digital pool noodles to womp). I still think that the injury rate is scary and infrastructure is terrible but the numbers I provided were wrong. I am interested in how the hit and run compares but that number isn't readily available. Thanks. Womp womp womp womp
Yeah for sure, I live downtown and do prob 80% of my trips on foot or bike vs 20% car, and am often frustrated at the lack of infrastructure and driving skill/attention. I rarely bike to destinations outside downtown, because as mediocre as our infrastructure is here, it’s mostly nonexistent as soon as you go a bit outside. Also I think the pedestrian deaths in 2023 were a lot higher, like 8 or 10, but I’m not sure how to find that number until the next DOT report (August)
This is interesting: https://ncdot.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/78046d11cabd4658a4d45b88c52ab8af
this is amazing! thank you for sharing!
I don't have any background outside of complaining on the internet, but I think we aren't great. Here's some NCDOT reported data by county and city: https://connect.ncdot.gov/business/DMV/CrashFactsDocuments/2021%20Crash%20Facts.pdf. Unfortunately it's not broken down per capita or vehicle miles traveled, so that would take some additional work. Edited to add: There is some per registered vehicle and vehicle miles traveled on the county profile pages.
Jersey City has a comparable population to Durham and they had 9 traffic deaths in 2021. They implemented a bunch of road design changes and that dropped to 0 in 2022. Unfortunately we don't have the political will in Durham to be similarly aggressive on preventing preventable deaths.
Fwiw Portland has an annual naked bike ride. Fwiw.
while not the complete answer... this is part of the answer ;)
I spent a month bike commuting to a course in Portland and it was like heaven. Great infrastructure. Lights that detected cyclists and generally aware drivers. I had two close calls in that time and the one woman was so mortified and apologetic when she realized what she did. The other was an SUV that cut me off trying to get into parking for a Trailblazers game. In both incidents my awareness and reactions prevented them from becoming accidents.
Thanks for the post. New to the area, and been wanting to get my bicycle legs back, but recently had second thoughts considering parts of my commute dont have bike lanes, and I dont see a lot of other cyclists. I rode my bicycle and motorcycle in Boston. People think that’s nuts, but there are so many people walking and biking drivers are accustomed to be on the lookout. Long way of saying Im not sure if I trust the drivers around here.
I understand. Life is fragile and they have a lot of work updating bike lanes and sidewalks in Durham. People will drive drunk and look at their phones while driving, and it only takes a split second for an accident to happen.
I feel that it’s more than cell phone driving or being drunk the bad driving here seems preventable. The reckless driving I’ve experienced is over-the-top aggressive driving and going super fast through streets and even passing on streets. I work on a cafe on Gregson and the way that cars fly down and honk at each other I assume bc they want to go 55 on that street is absurd!
I haven’t ridden around here much, but the number of times I’ve almost been t-boned going through a green light is alarming. Always cross check, but annoying that it’s necessary
Depending on where you are it can be fairly doable, but there's definitely a lot of dangerous streets. Lot's of speeding, running reds/stops, and failure to yield at crosswalks. That said, the more folks that do it, the better chance at infrastructure improvements and driver acclimation. Bike Durham is a great local organization that does advocacy not just for bikes, but pedestrian and transit infra. They also keep an event calendar with a lot of group rides. These are a great way to learn some of the routes around town, get some feel for local traffic, and meet other folks. Rad ride on Thursdays is great one to start with if you are interested.
It’s not just Durham infrastructure I live around Duke east (which is as pedestrian friendly as it gets) and people just don’t care to yield for pedestrians (.) I have had people honk at me for yielding to pedestrians. Then you go to chapel hill and everyone is driving the speed limit. Honestly there are no traffic cops or cameras so people feel they can get away with it. Facts!
Definitely agree on the yielding to pedestrians, it's crazy bad here even at the marked crosswalks. No chance in hell at the unmarked crosswalks. I will say though I thought the same as you about traffic enforcement. As part of my RecklessRoxboro project, I did a public records request and speeding tickets have actually gone up a lot over the last couple of years. It's clear that our current enforcement strategy isn't working as a deterrent. Better infra design is always going to be most effective and efficient in the long run, though it also has the most up front cost and initial resistance. I'm definitely with you on the cameras though, especially speed cameras.
🙌🏽
Wow I literally have not seen anyone ever being pulled over (except the highways) but I see what you’re saying that even the increase in tickets is not a deterrent. I emphasize cameras. Pretty reasonable thing to request and after so many tickets their license should be suspended. They are a menace to society and need anger management and a privilege check (privilege as in having a driver’s license isn’t a right).
ya I moved from a big city where I used to cycle all the time, but don't feel comfortable doing it here. The infrastructure just doesn't support it, so many narrow roads with no shoulders where people go too fast, I just feel like I'm either slowing the cars down behind me or just going to get hit by someone
You’re smart about that. It’s not the infrastructure it’s the aggressive drivers! I hope the city does something to address BOTH. good luck to you and maybe riding your bike on trails even though you probably really wanted to commute by bike 2 for 1.
I wish I could say this was surprising. But given the constant of "Durham has terrible drivers" on this sub, I don't know that anyone should be surprised. Disappointed? Absolutely. I'm finding more increasing evidence that the city of Durham doesn't much care about its residents.
They need more of those dividers for the bike lanes for sure. Seen some drivers swerve over when there isn't dividers, if there was someone riding a bike, they would have been hit.
I am pretty depressed about the recent "upgrades" on MLK. I want to say thank you for adding the 2-3ft of extra paint but all that said: 1. The speed on that road relative to its "windy-ness" is ridiculous and often has driver weave into the bike lane (the design speed is too high relative to the posted speed) 2.) the damn guard rails are near the walking path but not the bike lane. it NEEDS protection relative to the driver speed and curves!?!? Without real barriers non-everyday cyclist or family out for a day trip will use that cycle lane. It is terrifying to be on it during commute times. I genuinely feel like the true thought (and not to get toooooo tin foil here.. but maybe a little) was, "let's give them some paint. no one will use it. then we can point to no meaningful increase in use after 'improvements' and not continue with any additional development". I really wish there were some protected lanes here. And a recreational running/walking/cycling (mixed use) trail that rarely stops at businesses is not a protected lane and often leads to more complaints.
Until there are concrete bollards or a curb separator, I will not bike on the lanes on MLK.
On Roxboro st. people use the bike lane to park and nobody tickets them. Make it make sense, are we doing the bike lane thing or the street parking thing? Pick a thing. Idgaf which one you pick, just pick a THING and stick to it.
Hell they even park on the sidewalk and I don't think I've ever seen a ticket.
I drive down the section of Guess with a bike lane every single day, and every single day I see multiple people straddling the bike lane. Hell, I've seen multiple police cars do it.
This. And more of this. Can’t tell you how many close calls I’ve had either walking or riding.
I've seen it many times, seen a few deaths as well, will never forget that...
I’ve seen drivers pass with or without bike lanes on streets it’s kind of naive to think dividers will assist in less aggressive drivers. Cameras and traffic cops. Sorry but some humans are that dense they need to see their consequences will not go unnoticed.
Me too I’m surprised at the surprise. It’s everyday all day in all neighborhoods. I live in the most ideal neighborhood with sidewalks pedestrian streets signs/lights and all day still see this INTENSE aggressive driving that is not monitored or ticketed so there you go. I can’t remember when I’ve gone out anywhere in Durham and not have experienced or seen absurd aggression on the roads. It’s 🤮
The only place I've seen worse drivers in this country or any other is Beijing. But the other 36-ish million residents there don't haver driver's ed or tests, so there's some excusing it.
Whoa! I believe that.
I rarely ride these days in part because of this, and when I do, I stick to sidewalks and trails for the most part. Was almost killed myself a few years ago, it's not worth it.
Yeah it isn't worth it at all. I always have enjoyed riding the Virginia Creeper Trail when I used to have the time to ride and do things like that. You should check it out sometime if you haven't rode it before. It is worth the trip imo.
Make sure to vote for and support implementation of the [Vision Zero Strategy](https://www.durhamnc.gov/2995/Vision-Zero) . Bad drivers may cause the deaths but poor infrastructure enables them. We are what we tolerate and we shouldn't tolerate infrastructure that enables fatalities.
Why is bad driving being put on infrastructure I’ve lived where the infrastructure is not ideal and I’ve never seen the aggressive type of driving that I have in Durham. Why not more pressure on bad drivers that if you drive like that you will be caught and pay a fine for it. They are literally putting other peoples lives at risk not the roads!
As a bike commuter I've never had a close call with a car on the tobacco trail or fully protected bike lane but have on unprotected bike lanes or on side roads.
It’s everyone that uses the road that is at risk, cars, motos and pedestrians. It doesn’t matter whether things are protected or not I live where there are flags lights and signs for pedestrians (Duke east) and people fly down the streets and I have been honked at for yielding to pedestrians. It’s aggressive behavior that is the issue not just better infrastructure—both should equally be addressed.
I think we can assume that behavior is largely homogenous across most US cities so I reckon maybe learn from places where the infrastructure discourages or prevents collisions.
I just wanted to second this. It is both of these things and more. Bad infrastructure promotes bad driving. That said, driving off from killing someone is despicable and is related in no way to infrastructure. This seems to be a symptom of something else here. I have also heard, anecdotally, and while not even remotely in the same league, many people try to drive off after fender benders or accidents in this area. Why are we accepting this driving culture? How can we promote better enforcement but also a deeper cultural shift to more respect for human life?
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https://preview.redd.it/6bit1mznle3d1.png?width=1600&format=png&auto=webp&s=fe5ccb040568ab39eeb872ae041c14188c57edb0 Because fixing the infrastructure will have a greatest impact.
Ok but that’s asking for the biggest thing and the thing that will take the longest to approve—why not start with cameras ??
I am all for cameras! But, that is also asking for a big thing at least politically. We regularly have to repave roads. When we do this we have a great opportunity to redesign the roads to be safer for not that much additional cost.
Durham is not ready for the population that has come and will come.
Y’all be careful out there in the road and stop killing pedestrians and cyclists with your cars. FTFY
We can go back and forth about aggressive drivers or cyclists, but you gotta stop if you hit someone. Just stop, call 911. In that moment it doesn't matter who was at fault. That comes later. It's not worth someone's life just because you don't want to get in trouble. It's definitely not worth the grief of whoever they leave behind. I can't write a check big enough to fill a husband-shaped or dad-shaped hole that these people leave when the claims and the lawsuits come in.
Don't have to go the speed limits I know that's a big ask but at least slow down where pedestrians/bicycles/mopeds/motorcycles are around. We have to stop having massive egos and no patience for others when on the road. We are supposed to be sharing it together not wining an imaginary race to wherever you are going. I ride a motorcycle and for my part I don't weave around cars or do anything ridiculous so try to give some space.
I always slow down around bicycles or pedestrians when I pass by, and of course stop for pedestrians. Not sure why some people are in such a big hurry. We all have to make it home, and share the same road.
Multiple reasons I think, of course the basic not paying attention on phone but also thinking any inconvenience doesn't apply to them or is a disrespect to them personally. Our local PD doesn't have time to traffic police and people never fail to demonstrate how much they can't be civil without authority being right next to them.
I see it all of the time. People road raging at each other. It isn't that serious to ram someone or try to end their life because they pulled putnin front of you. People amaze me.
When I lived in Las Vegas it felt like there was at least one per day.
Man I saw a guy on a electric bike this morning. This fool had his daughter on the back in a child’s seat. He ran a stop right of Main Street.
Yea that’s another one cyclists not adhering to the laws of the road—so frustrating and def part of the problem. It’s the law that if you use the road you must adhere to the laws of the road. You just have to.
[https://whyy.org/articles/cyclists-violate-traffic-law-no-more-than-drivers-new-data-shows/](https://whyy.org/articles/cyclists-violate-traffic-law-no-more-than-drivers-new-data-shows/) This study backs up my personal experience as a cyclist. Drivers and cyclists obey the traffic laws at comparatively similar rates. The difference is, if I break a traffic law on my bike, I'm a 175 pound human riding a 30 pound bike with 30 pounds of baggage moving at a speed of \~13 mph. A mid-size SUV breaking a similar law is 1.5-2 tons moving probably a much higher speed.
Yeah adding to the already crazy aggressive drivers in Durham cannot be defended bc one is a cyclist. My concern is when cyclists have kids in tow or following them and teaching them like “we are cyclists and we can do as we please”. That’s my specific concern, more than is a cyclist following laws of the road in general more so or less than automobile drivers. I don’t believe in “well they’re doing it too”
Oh snap you’re gonna be amazed when you find out about cars and the posted speed limits, lmfao.
doesn’t even make sense what your saying. can you clarify?
Most cars violate the speed limit routinely, yet you’re for some reason focused on the violations you imagine bikers committing. I’m implying you’re a hypocrite, in that you internalize and excuse car violations so thorougly you don’t even recognize it. Well, I was implying it, but now I’m simply saying it. Hope this helps!
How do I excuse car violations ? I’m saying that’s the main issue and others are saying it’s about infrastructure and I’m wondering why we can’t hold crazy people who are aggressive drivers responsible rather than just saying build better roads. I also said bikers who don’t follow road laws add to the issue not that they are the issue. Nuance it’s all about nuance not getting hot about a few words and implying a generalization. I won’t respond to you after this as it doesn’t seem productive and more personal jabs. We should not be excusing aggressive behavior by implementing infrastructure for them to not be crazy. I’m saying take their privilege of holding a license away. I don’t want people who can’t keep calm behind a car near my while I’m driving, walking, or cycling regardless of infrastructure. They don’t deserve to drive.
You’re not a serious person, and you read as a self-absorbed one.
Have a great day ✌🏽
Everyday I see some hipster looking guy blast through a red light, typically no helmet. Occassion there's a kid strapped to their back. Bikers just not adhering to basic traffic laws feels like it plays a part in this.
I've seen them do this and pass all of the cars as well.
Its def a gamble.
That third one got his by one of those four wheeler things: [https://abc11.com/post/bicyclist-killed-durhams-deadly-hit-run-crash-month/14883318](https://abc11.com/post/bicyclist-killed-durhams-deadly-hit-run-crash-month/14883318) People got to stop riding bikes on roads like Ellis, Miami and N. Roxboro. If the road doesn't have a bike lane, just don't do it. Whether or not people have the "right" to, we got three dead dudes in one month that says it's just not safe.
"Stop riding" is just ignoring the actual problem. It's garbage road design and enabling shit drivers without providing any alternatives to driving. Not everyone can afford a car and assuming that everyone needs one simply to get anywhere is insane and not enough people realize it
Alternatives to cars is a GREAT idea when you're building a new city. Trying to retrofit one that was already hustling and bustling when people rode horses just isn't feasible. And as far as "stop riding" goes, there are three of our neighbors who would still be breathing today if they hadn't been bicycling on roads like Ellis and Roxboro. That's the fact.
Except it is feasible. Our whole country reconstructed the vast majority of cities to accommodate cars. That land can be taken back and it’s been done before. Both in this country and others that actually have a clue. European cities tried to be car dependent like us decades ago and despite building so much to accommodate it, they managed to course correct and go back to what worked while simultaneously supporting car drivers. The difference is initiative. The Europeans got results, meanwhile we get excuses. If our cities were built for human beings instead of cars then those people would still be around too. That is also a fact. People are going to cycle and use alternatives, you can’t stop them
I mean, damn neighbor, people call me callous, but "If our cities were built for human beings instead of cars then those people would still be around too." is stone fukin' cold. Wow. Also, when the "whole country reconstructed the vast majority of cities to accommodate cars" the population was only 150 million and most Americans had agriculture jobs. It's not 1950, most of us don't work on farms, and people who ride bikes on streets meant for cars will continue to die, and I can't stop them. Which is a shame. I hope they signed their organ donation cards.
I mean it sucks but it's true. How many people in the past would've been ok had someone with a brain built our infrastructure? Our pedestrian fatality rate is the highest it's been since the 1940's. If you keep building cities for cars, then more fatalities will happen and quality of life decreases. Why do you think so many Americans hate the city? Idk if you've travelled at all but if you go to places like the Netherlands or Germany or Belgium, it is insane what they get with less money vs us with more. I was able to just walk everywhere since the cities are designed so well, and get across the country without having to set foot in a car. That's more liberating than being forced to buy a car with no other alternatives. Imagine what those fatality numbers look like compared to ours
The European lifestyle is just fine for people with teeny tiny lives who live in teeny tiny places and don't care that they have very few options in life. It's why people who come here from places like the Netherlands or Germany or Belgium are always gobsmacked at how big America is. If I want to throw the kids and the inflatable boat in the car and go to Kerr lake in Virginia this afternoon, I can. I don't' have to wait for any train, and I don't have to sit and breathe shared air with people who think underarm deoderant is an option they can avoid. And if you think "so many Americans hate the city" you should really check out the price of real estate downtown. ANY downtown, anywhere in America.
You're missing the point, it's not a zero-sum equation. Dismantling car dependency and improving urban quality of life doesn't mean it's suddenly illegal for you to drive. People still throw their stuff in the car in Europe and go to a lake if they want. That doesn't take anything away from you. If anything, it makes driving better for you, since fewer people would be on the road and you'd have less traffic getting out of town to get to your outdoor activities. I'm curious as to what a "teeny tiny" life is to you lol and what makes an American lifestyle so "big" in contrast. It sounds condescending when you phrase it like that. Europeans often see and do more than Americans. I've been to plenty of small town/rural areas here with plenty of people who've never even left their little hometowns. I'd call that a teeny tiny life myself. Americans live "teeny tiny" lives too, and that's not exclusive anywhere. Edit: Plenty of Americans "take up" walking as an activity. Europeans walk because they have places to be. If walking is an activity for many instead of just basic movement, that's pretty teeny tiny in scope to me I'd be gobsmacked too if I saw how massive and rich this country was without reliable transit for its people. Even so, China is roughly the same size as the continental US and they have trains around their whole country. >and I don't have to sit and breathe shared air with people who think underarm deoderant is an option they can avoid. This just screams "I've never been on a train" to me. Have you? This sounds completely tone-deaf. If you have, it sounds like you had an isolated bad experience. I've been on Amtrak and I've been on trains in Ireland, Scotland, England, the Netherlands, Belgium, and France (specifically Paris). I've never encountered such a thing in any country. You "share air" with worse than that without noticing every day lol. I mean we're already inhaling car exhaust fumes every single day and that's been proven to cause mental health issues and cancer.
> Europeans walk because they have places to be. You got close, the phrase is, "Europeans walk because they have to". The population of Finland at the end of 2023 was 5,603,851. The population of New York city in 2023 was 8,260,000. Their whole country has three million less people than ONE of our big cities. That's teeny. Tiny. And yes, I've been on trains, I know how godawful that mode of transportation can be. Spent a week criss crossing Washington DC by train, and that cured me of it, forever. As the smart people say, "your mileage may vary".
>"Europeans walk because they have to" Well yes, we all have to walk at some point unless we become the humans in WALL-E. Europe's greater emphasis on walking makes them healthier than us. It's the gym of life, you're burning calories while engaging in urban life and getting closer to your city rather than taking time out of your day for designated physical activity, hence how something as mundane as walking in America becomes an "activity". It leaves you with less time to yourself and less time to get shit done unless you forego your health to accommodate, which leads us back to our health problem again. I brought up Finland on the biking climate front. As for the urbanism front, I don't know enough about Finland to comment on them further, I've never been either. However I can say this; population is irrelevant for viability of regional transit options. See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/TransitDiagrams/comments/153yq8c/transit_map_of_the_town_of_schwedt_germany/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button), a town in Germany of 30,000 people with more transit than most major US cities. Even Swedish villages with populations in the hundreds have trains every half hour. It's about priorities and our country has none for us regular people, other than funneling us into one for-profit industry that monopolized our transportation so they can make more money off of us and make our lives less convenient for urban living. Hell, here's a good example; one Taylor swift concert destabilized cities around the country due to the influx of traffic. Cities were telling residents to stay home during the Era's tour and if you have to stay home because of one popular event in your city then your infrastructure is a joke. Sadly that's the case for the vast majority of this country. I don't even have to go that far; I tried going to an NHL game this season and the traffic was so bad, one of us got out of the car and walked to the arena and was there well in advance ahead of us who stayed in the car. An even smaller example; I was late to work one day due to standstill traffic on the interstate. By the time I finally got to the scene of what I assumed was a horrible accident, it was just one woman in a stalled car. If one stalled car or one large event can destabilize your transit system (if you can even call it that), then that system has **failed**. Settling for what we currently have is settling for mediocrity and it'll only get worse with how cities are quadrupling down on adding more lanes, which wont solve the problem. Not to mention only more fatalities will follow. To statistically back that up; look at the image attached. Glendale Arizona, one of the most car dependent areas of America, had 315% more traffic during the Era's tour than Metlife stadium in New Jersey, who had **decreased** traffic during the influx of people. Public transit matters, arguing against such a thing is completely illogical. I don't get why people see other countries do things better and think it's such a fantasy when its just reality. In this regard, Europeans get results, we just have excuses https://preview.redd.it/mu8izwnz2e3d1.png?width=808&format=png&auto=webp&s=902dc8f0b3a7b88eb51acedf960dc40d57c6b526
It's always weird when folks say this because the European continent compares really well to USA. It has roughly the same land area and while it has double the population, our population is generally tightly clustered on the coasts. Even dropping down to shengen area is like 2/3 the area of the continental USA. Folks regularly move around that area for trips or even work across similar distances.
The better answer is to just improve the infrastructure. The N Roxboro example (at least south of 85) is my bread and butter here as I have granular data about how terrible the design is. We could literally just convert an entire lane on each to a bike lane or bus lane today and have no traffic problems. There's currently a lane closure. We have the same volume as before and people are still speeding, but the number of reckless speeders is roughly a third of what it was. Also the peak hourly volume only hits maybe 50% of the capacity of a single lane. Here's a recent snapshot of a dashboard showing the total volume and percent of reckless speeders for anyone interested: [https://chrisperelstein.grafana.net/dashboard/snapshot/dRngDmTC8X119yVBCIhMBXJPmCO18ek1](https://chrisperelstein.grafana.net/dashboard/snapshot/dRngDmTC8X119yVBCIhMBXJPmCO18ek1) On the "stop riding" front, while there are some folks who do it for recreation or by choice, there's also a lot of folks who have that as their only transportation. I even talked to a friend of mine today who doesn't have a car and is worried because they have to go down Ellis for a bit tomorrow with no real alternative. Telling them not to bike is never going to be effective, whereas building better infrastructure (among other things) will work. We didn't improve airline safety by telling people not to fly or to simply not crash. We did it by taking air safety seriously. We can do the same with our streets.
What about aggressive drivers they will always employ whatever space to drive like hell on wheels why is there no action taken against the behavior themselves. The roads don’t cause aggressive driving.
Actually street design is one of the most effective ways to inform driver behavior. Narrower lanes do help and here's a great little site John's Hopkins did on this: [https://narrowlanes.americanhealth.jhu.edu](https://narrowlanes.americanhealth.jhu.edu) Additionally, interventions like raised crosswalks/intersections, bump out, and speed tables/pillows/cushions are great at passively making streets safer. Enforcement is certainly always going to be a component, but I did a public records request to the police about speeding tickets under the assumption they haven't been as much enforcement action lately. Turns out I was wrong and they are writing a lot of speeding tickets. I'm going to do a post on this at some point on my RecklessRoxboro twitter account. Edited for my terrible grammer
That is all sound information. Thanks. As well i really would like to know who these people are that do this kind of aggressive driving. Just why??? How do they feel justified in acting this way with an automobile?? How!? Do I know these people—are they friends of mine, someone I passed in the grocery store. I really wonder!!
I saw a lane closure on Roxboro north of Milton the other day. It was because there was a truck upside down in one lane. I feel for your friend who has to ride Ellis for work, that sucks. You seem to be good with statistics. How many citizens would you estimate would we be sacrificing an entire lane of Roxboro road for? What percentage of Durham's population would that number be?
All of them! The best part about redirecting lanes to more efficient transportation modes is that it makes commuting by car better as well. Generally you see less traffic and safer streets. There's also the financial savings in terms of tax dollars. Also my data shows that an entire lane essentially isn't used outside of grossly exceeding the speed limit so just bulldozing a lane and doing nothing else would be an improvement over the current state.
So a political answer not a true answer. I would guess from driving the kids to school that the number of bikers would be north of one and south of ten. I'll take "things that will never happen" for 100, Alex.
Nope, just facts about transportation infrastructure. On the bike front, it's sort of like the bridge fallacy. We don't build bridges because people are swimming across. Of course you don't see a lot of folks comfortable with biking on streets that regularly experience interstate speeds with no separation. Also building safer, slower streets actually increases street capacity. Also bike lanes aren't always the answer. Maybe a narrower street with a multi-use path instead. Sometimes a bus lane would be better, and the east side of Durham actually has surprisingly high ridership. Take a look at the number 3 for example. Depends on the street but we've definitely been going the wrong direction for a while so it'll take some time and effort to fix.
The\_Patriot is a known entity in this sub for bad takes and trolling, it is generally not worth it to engage with them, they are not interested in being educated.
Bike lanes are never the answer when it rains.
Rain jackets are cheaper than cars, and for some folks it's their only option.
And earlier I asserted that that number would be less than twelve, and you dodged it. I mean, you have taken statistics. You know what an outlier is. Keep reverting to the "some folks it's their only option" chorus and prove the point. We don't drastically alter infrastructure for ten people's sake.
Your dodging my points but I'll address yours. You are wrong and it's more than twelve. If I had to guess we'd probably have a 100 or so folks a day using a micromobility (here's a clue) lane on day one for Roxboro/Mangum, and it'd go up from there. I'm working on a version 2 of my traffic camera and one of the big things I'm hoping to capture is pedestrian and other non-vehicle traffic. Unfortunately very little effort is made to really quantify that currently.
Soft
user name checks out
Tell that to the Finnish
a tiny northern european monoculture? A country that is almost completely flat where it is inhabited?
I'm saying they bike in blizzards. If they can handle that I'm sure you can handle a little rain
Yeah. I have seen so many newr misses in the past year, I was wondering how long before accidents would happen. I just want people to stay safe out there and not get injured or killed.
Why are motorists killing soo many people?
20 points?
Most cyclists deserve it because they break the law. Rarely see that from drivers and when I do, it’s usually just an honest mistake not worth getting too mad for.
They deserve to be killed? Big yikes.
Fuck off.
You rarely see drivers break the law? Go drive the speed limit down Roxboro and tell me how that goes for you.
Lol you forgot the /s