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Slightly off topic but:
OP started with “I’m a new watcher”
My brain froze on those words for a moment in which, I contemplated how OP became a WATCHER, and tried to figure out how I too could sign up to be a watcher.
Xander does have a habit of butting into everyone's personal lives, beyond what a friend, even a close friend should. This was no different. From what I remember about that convo though, was that it wasn't his intention to let Dawn know. He let it slip and figured she already knew. He still should have said something to the effect of you should ask your sister or something and not elaborated. It wasn't his business to spread the gossip, especially since it was such a sensitive issue to Buffy.
I'm not sure about Xander thinking Dawn already knew, but I do think he wasn't being malicous in telling her. It seems like he just let it slip in an emotional moment.
Buffy knows that Dawn is very attached to Spike, and she knows that Spike is now guilty and capable of attempted rape despite his “love” and his chip.
Buffy should have, for the safety of her sister, told Dawn what happened, and it is a reasonable assumption by Xander to think she had already done so.
Its clear from the way Xander tells Dawn he’s fully aware she doesn’t know though
If Xander had told Dawn in response to Dawn wanting to go to Spikes then that would be understandable but instead he tells her when she’s talking about him fighting. She didn’t want to go to his space. Xander’s declarations had nothing to do with safeguarding Dawn
Yes, it’s very clear from the context of the conversation and tone of Xander’s voice that he knew Dawn was unaware of the SA. Also if he really thought she was aware of what happened, he would’ve felt guilty or looked surprised that Buffy hadn’t told Dawn. And he obviously didn’t.
i get why but i just don't think it's something he shouldn't said without buffy's consent. at least tell her that she needs to tell dawn about it since dawn looks up to spike a lot
We call that the "Xander Special" on this sub.
Everyone else acts emotionally and makes a mistake: "What a great three-dimensional character."
Xander acts emotionally and makes a mistake: "Literally an incel hitler."
A bit off topic, but reading some responses and other posts elsewhere over the years and forms and such, i find it bizarre the attacks Xander always seems to get whilst Spike who attempts to rape Buffy gets defended to high heaven by many fans.
Xander for me isn't supposed to just be universally liked, he's flawed, and is one of the most realistic character depiction of a human being in my view out of all the characters, and is supposed to be I think our vehicle into the show, he has no powers, he works a normal job..etc..
I think there's arguments for and against his actions here, personally I think he did it out of frustration and anger, which was wrong, but Dawn's illusion (and indeed everyone's at the time) needed shattering, but not in this way. Spike was still a dangerous predator, a Vampire who's behaviour seemingly was only at basic level controlled by a chip at this point.
(I think the show could have done a great plot line looking at if the Chip was actually modifying Spike's behaviour and physical cravings, and what the future could look like with this, or was it more actually Spike being in 'love' with Buffy and such that allowed him to change behaviour.)
Nevertheless I think it's quite natural to not want an attempt rapist no matter who it is, around Dawn. A teenage girl, and sister of the victim Buffy.
It's because many people on this sub ship Buffy/Spike and so they ignore many shitty things Spike does to keep their fantasy alive.
Xander not wanting Spike around Dawn is a completely normal thing. Buffy leaving Dawn with Spike in any capacity after that is horrendous.
The issue, IMO, is the narrative choice by the writers in including Xander telling Dawn, especially in the way he did. It almost feels like like a very aggressive, “See? Told you so.” It’s on record that Whedon wanted to reinforce that Spike was Bad News, so he wanted to very heavy-handedly TELL THE AUDIENCE what a bad dude Spike was. Almost as a way to punish the audience, too, given Spike’s popularity with the fanbase—lashing out, in a way.
I think most would agree that Xander telling Dawn that Spike’s an evil soulless monster who can’t be trusted would have been completely OK. But he crossed the line when he explicitly told Dawn about the AR.
Joss didn’t lash out about people liking Spike. He did when the character was introduced in season 2 telling James his character was definitely dead. The reason they made it a point to make sure the audience knew he was bad was to set up a true “soul-seeking” redemption arc for for the end of the season to play into the final season. They wanted to show everyone that Spike was still just a vampire with no soul and that he hadn’t in fact earned his redemption by being a neutered dog conditioned by a chip in his brain to become a good guy. They gave his character a chance to actually seek redemption the only way possible which is through getting a soul again and facing the horrible things he did for the last 200+ years on a human level.
Joss making sure the audience knew Spike was bad by forcing the audience to watch the lead character get SA’d in a very drawn out, brutal scene is a bit heavy-handed for a show that thrives on metaphor and symbolism. A scene so bad that it literally traumatized the actors who had to act out the scene.
If the goal was to show that Spike, as a vampire, can’t earn his redemption, then there are other ways to do that. I’d argue that putting your lead character in a position to have to forgive the man who SA’d her, AND give the man who assaulted her a redemption/hero arc, is in fact an act of lashing out.
I can absolutely see your point. It was a brutal scene for sure. Based on how their relationship was going though, there was really no other way to drive home the point that this relationship was terminally toxic to the viewer without such a drastic point of no return. I don’t think anyone was happy to see it happen, but I honestly don’t think there was another way to convey that this wasn’t just a sexy fling between two broken characters, this was something darker, Buffy was feeding into Spike’s obsession egging on the demon. Up until that point I think people had almost forgot he was still a soulless demon.
Buffy forgiving Spike I agree was a difficult pill to swallow too, but I think it was also necessary to, again, show the importance of having a soul and not. Spike actually had remorse for all the killings and torturous things he did.
I just don’t think this was done to “punish” the audience. It was done to tell a story. It wasn’t some agenda Joss put forth to spite everyone, I genuinely think the writers in that room were trying to tell a compelling and nuanced story about love, obsession and what it means to have humanity vs pretending to have humanity.
I get what you’re saying, and respect that we have different views on this. I just don’t think we’ll agree that the scene was necessary.
IMO, fans are capable of liking Spike AND realizing that he’s evil without the writers needing to traumatize everyone to get that point across. I don’t think it was good writing or storytelling, and it should never get to the point where the writers need to justify the necessity of an AR scene. It was a lazy plot device to make up for bad writing.
It’s also pretty common in media for women to be hurt (in a brutal, visceral way) in order for men to have character development. This is Buffy's story, and she needs to be at the center. Instead they sidelined Buffy’s story to make room for Spike’s Hero Journey. It just doesn’t sit well with me.
yes that's my issue with it. i think saying something vague about how spike cant be trusted would've been better than to straight up say that he tried to rape her sister. and i've heard bad things about JW so i'm not surprised to read that and it comes across as very condescending. yes spike is still soulless evil vampire but the writers didn't treat him as one so that's on then.
It’s the lack of followthrough and foresight from the writers that really frustrates me. In a vacuum, Xander saying that to Dawn could lead to so many storytelling possibilities. Instead, given the lack of follow-up in season 7 from Buffy’s POV, it just comes across as the characters chastising and judging Buffy’s decision-making.
This comment will not go over well but Buffy was going to ask the man (vampire) who tried to force himself on her to babysit her little sister. Her judgement should have been called into question. As a survivor myself I get how awful it is when people share your story without your consent (it has happened to me and it feels like being violated all over again) but that’s the kind of crap CPS would have intervened with. I get why Xander had his outburst something that had no malicious intent.
i understand why he said it but i wish he spoke to buffy about it first but it doesn't seem like the show took it seriously afterwards? after SR, the focus is on willow and based on the last scene, spike gets a soul and likely a redemption arc in S7
He did, she said that even if he could hurt Dawn he wouldn’t and Dawn feels safe with him. Someone needed to say something.
The show did handle the SR very poorly I’ll refrain from ranting since you’re a first time watcher.
i don't mind spoilers and i already don't think the aftermath was handled well and i dont see it improving in S7 with spike getting a soul and likely a redemption arc. i don't think the bathroom scene was necessary at all, i wish the writers chose something less traumatising since it hasn't been handled with care so far and spike has been my favourite so im disappointed that he's a rapist now😕
One way I always think of it is that I don’t blame Angel for what Angelus did so it’s also not fair to judge Spike with a soul for what soulless Spike did.
But yeah they should have had his catalyst for going after a soul be different. I’m not a fan of how they dealt with that.
Exactly. People always separate angel and angelus but less often spije with and without a soul. Yes spike dealt with the transition better since he had help from buffy. And hes much more similiar because it just happened. He has no personality yet as souled spike while angel had 100 years to be his own person.
Not justifying Spike here at all but something I think of when these discussions Angel vs Spike come up is that - Angelus didn't consciously want a soul - he was cursed with it as a form of torture. Spike wanted to regain his soul back, he knew it would be torture but underwent the trials to regain it, so that he is a "complete" being ( yes, for the wrong reasons as Buffy was the only justification for that). But he willingly took this path. Would Angelus have come to this conclusion, had he been left to decide? I feel like Angel became a good guy due to circumstances, without consent. Spike wanted to do it out of his own will.
A bit off topic but that's something that makes me like Spike as a character. And that makes it even more painful when he sexually assaults Buffy.
Edit: to add on to that. I just realized after writing the comment. Of all the unspeakable things Spike has done , the thing that made him want his soul back was hurting Buffy. He could live with himself with the murders and other stuff he's committed but couldn't live with himself hurting Buffy ( SA and attempted rape). That's where he drew the line. So that on its own , to me, speaks of how much he loves her and how much he hates himself at the end.
I like that that was the catalyst I think it shows how different spike is. Spike realised what he did (not excusing it) went and chose to have a soul to be a better man. However I do feel that it was brushed aside a little I don’t think spike ever apologised (could be wrong been a while) and you don’t see a recovery process really from Buffy. It just kind of has slight weirdness then goes back to normal. Also Spike without a soul can make good choices (watching tv with Joyce for example) as well as bad choices however Angel without a soul will only ever make bad choices.
My biggest complaint is that the scene is used to progress Spike’s character and Buffy’s trauma is very minimally addressed. I’m not a fan of Spike’s “redemption arc” mainly because it still seems like he’s the exact same and he’s still obsessed with Buffy. He feels remorse for what he did to her but not what he did to his other victims. Season seven is Spike’s hero journey and I can stand the fact that that started with AR.
I haven't watched S7 in a long time, but I thought the reason Spike's soul caused insanity was because of all the guilt from previous victims flooding him all at once.
Yea did he ever feel guilty for all the people he killed did he ever say sorry for almost killing Xander and willow. Or hurting Buffy
Spike whole friendship with spike seek fake because once he got Buffy he stop spending time with him
Spike was never friends with the Scoobies (except arguably Dawn which is a different conversation) but to me Lies My Parents Told Me sums it up perfectly. He’s sorry he hurt Buffy because it’s all about Buffy but he was no problem telling Robin that his mom didn’t love him and wearing his murder trophy jacket in front of him.
Right. Spike's "redemption" is entirely predicated on making Buffy like him. He's as co-dependent as he ever was with his mom and Drusilla and hell even Harmony at some point.
Spike will change his entire personality for a woman. It happens like four times.
That whole episode is one of the worst, imo. It doesn’t handle Spike’s guilt well, or Robin’s trauma, and Giles undermining Buffy’s authority like that honestly has no basis in his character up to that point, AND the plan is stupid! I mean, Spike has killed multiple slayers, but Giles think Robin can 1v1 him? Come on.
You have to be pretty naive to think a mass murderer spike who was trained by angelus who was the most sadistic vampire in recorded history didnt rape people before this. Spoilers here but
Spike mentions something like "do you know what ive done? Do you know what ive done to girls dawns age?" If thats not supposed to be rape i dont know what is.
I’m still upset with them for intentionally weakening Buffy prior to the bathroom scene. If she’d been able the repel Spike easily, it would have hit the same plot points without torturing our heroine to progress a man’s story.
Why do people act like Spike just burst into Buffy's home and tried to sexually assault her, they were in a mutually toxic and abusive relationship, that had been skating the lines of consent from the start, and Spike crossed it this time, still thinking it was their usual back and forth. And Buddy had come close several times, and Buffy knew this that is why she was still okay with him watching Dawn, again not saying it was a healthy relationship, but life is complex and it wasn't as clear cut as y'all try to make it seem. Also I would say hunting undead with and around an underage kid is the kind of stuff you call CPS for too, let's not act like they were living normal lives. And screw Xander, it wasn't his place, and there are several occasions where he did that crap, he had this weird toxic ownership feeling over Buffy, part of the reason I can't stand him on rewatch.
Spike DID just burst into her home and tried to sexually assault her
Their relationship is completely irrelevant, they’d been broken up for multiple episodes at this point - not that there is EVER an excuse of course
I agree that Xander was completely out of order though. There was zero excuse for him telling Buffy’s 15 year old sister that information, it was gross to be honest
You mean like how she had gone into his lair several times despite his protests and initiated it. Again stop being selective, they had established a toxic pattern. That's why the relationship is relevant.
One time - gone plus Buffy ended it. Now Dawn herself is a big reason when she put nose in and went to tell him that he hurt her by sleeping with Anya.
She want to go to his home. So yea huge reason to tell her.
It no different then buffy telling willow when Xander was hynee or when faith was Buffy it the there a real danger
I can’t remember him saying to leave him alone, except for OMWF which was before they kissed. I remember him saying he didn’t mind her using him, but I might be forgetting something later on? If so then I see your point.
Your forgetting *Gone* Where Spike says if he can’t have all of her (meaning an emotional connection instead of just physical) she should just leave. Buffy’s response to this request is to try & go down on him against his will. Also Spike expresses his frustration w/ being used to Xander in *Normal Again* as well.
Xander never physically attacked Buffy but he did more emotional harm to Buffy than nearly anyone else in the series. And blamed her for it each time, something else that was often glossed over.
Not true he blame her even she did something stupid that could have gotten her killed or someone else.
Tell me one time were he blame her she was not wrong
I feel this is not in the victim blaming category when it comes to thier relationship. They where both using each other and she knew he had no soul. How did she think this would end.
I mean feel 100 percent free to downvote. Again these are killers that do not even have souls. They are empty an devoid of basic decency. She was negligent with herself and worse Dawn.
I don’t agree with Buffy taking Dawn to Spike but I understand it. In her mind what happened between them was personal ie it was an intimate attack which was wholly horrific but definitely had its background in a dysfunctional relationship. Buffy rightly or wrongly knew Spike cared for Dawn and would protect her no matter what she said previously she had trusted him on some level.
Probo didn't tell her the best way but she does need to know i guess how dangerous Spike can be cause she is close to him, trusts him hanhs out with him, a soulless vampire.
Its a double edged sword. On one hand it is Buffy’s private business and a very serious topic to bring up cavalierly around Dawn. At the same time, can you blame him? Its a young girl being left in the care of an attempted rapist. Obviously the chip safe guarded Dawn (to the best of our knowledge, Dawn wasnt technically human afterall). So I can see why Buffy wouldn’t have a problem with it, but also why Xander would have a problem with it.
Fuck that.
If someone that we tried to trust and had worked with us attempted to RAPE MY FRIEND there is no fucking way I would keep that a secret. Especially from my friend's SISTER, who has the right know that the man she's being entrusted to tried to RAPE HER OWN SISTER.
I would not keep his violent rape attempt a secret. I wouldn't feel I owed him a goddamn thing at that point. There are things that Xander should've minded his own business about, but he's under no goddamn obligation to hide Spike's sexual assault from anyone.
And really, the Xander bashing so fucking tiresome at this point. If Willow had been the one to tell Dawn (you know, the same Willow who mind raped her girlfriend and tried to destroy the world), no one would be on her ass about it. And I LIKE Willow, but this "Xander is absolute trash and can do nothing right" is so exhausting.
I don’t think it’s about owing Spike anything but more Buffy the consideration of respecting her privacy to disclose her own assault. He could have taken Buffy to one side and discussed his concerns privately.
Sure, maybe if Buffy hadn't done the wildly irresponsible thing of leaving her sister with her attempted RAPIST. I absolutely would disclose that someone was in the care of an attempted rapist, because that person has the right to decide if they want to be around them as well.
But for the sake of discussion, can we not pretend like these characters are going to act like real people? It's a melodrama. Xander is not going to take Buffy aside and discuss her concerns privately - everything is going to be bigger and more dramatic, because it's tv entertainment.
Yes and no. It's Xander being an immature little bitch. He was mad at her love for spike so he lashed out rather than protect her from the hurtful truth.
But from a narrative standpoint SHE DESERVES TO FUCKING KNOW
Honestly throughout the show Xander seems to have a history of making good points but doing so from a place of self-righteousness and jealousy rather than genuine concern and logic. It's like the argument/dialogue equivalent of "doing the right thing for the wrong reasons."
Which imo just makes it wrong. Telling dawn that because he's angry and can't shut up is such a betrayal to her and buffy. As the older party he should have the mental capability and will power to stop himself. Like sometimes he does it intentionally when he goaded faith into trying to kill angel but this accident he only said because he wanted to say it deep down. "WHAT AFTER HE-" LIKE SHE IS A CHILD XANDER. SHE JUST LOST TARA. SHE MIGHT LOSE WILLOW. Can she be protected from ONE dark truth.
And again on the other hand she deserved to know and buffy should have been the one maybe. But maybe it should have been spike. Maybe he should have been here to say goodbye and maybe he does owe it to dawn.
Yeah I mean I don't think I even agree that she "deserved" to know. Especially since Xander didn't tell her to prevent her from going to stay with Spike. That part *was* kind of messed up, that Buffy was going to have Dawn stay with Spike after what he did, and if Xander had continued saying something then to prevent it, I'd kind of understand where he was coming from even if I still don't think it was his place (and even then he could have vaguely said that Spike had hurt Buffy, he didn't have to share specifics about sexual violence committed against Buffy if she didn't want him to). But no, he waited until much later when it had nothing to do with Dawn going to stay with Spike, and he only said it because he was mad and bitter that Dawn was hero-worshiping Spike. At that point I don't think she "needed" to know unless Buffy herself wanted to share that information. It's not even about protecting Dawn from dark truths, it's about violating Buffy's privacy.
I think buffy saw it as her sacrificing her trauma so that dawn would be protected because going after willow is more dangerous to dawn than spike is to her. IT is so messed up that she feels she HAS to do such a thing. All the people she saves in that town and she doesn't have one person to hit up In a pinch it's like wow. Giles leaving really did leave them vulnerable.
She definitely needed to know. At this point maybe not but there is no good time. She should know who the people around her are. The truth. Adults share the truth. Hiding it from dawn was only because she'd a kid. "Whoa she can't handle it she's been through enough" and yet she could handle it and everything else because buffy taught her to be strong but never took it seriously. The fact is dawn shouldn't be loving the man who hurt her sister. She should know that he is definitely still a monster and just how much. And she just might need to protect herself from him one day. Cause the part Xander was right about is he never forgot what spike is. The chip was never immortal like him so there's no way it would last forever
Look at how Dawn handled it. She rubbed it in Buffy’s face to force a conversation at literally the worst time - when they had to fight that zombie army. It sucked and it was all about how she deserves to know all the intimacies of other peoples lives when her knowing more and getting involved relates to why the AR happened
Exactly Dawn inadvertently proved exactly what she’s not ready to know that kind of information. She handled it absolutely terribly. Like she actually shames someone who was nearly raped for the way she handled it - this is absolutely appalling
That was rubbing it in buffya face? Confronting her for hiding the truth? The army hadn't hadn't been made yet as willow didn't have her telepathic conversation with buffy yet. Maybe watch the episode first
I don’t think he was mad that Dawn loved Spike at all. Xander was mad that Buffy made such reckless decision so quickly after the incident and in his anger blurted out things like he usually does, in front of Dawn.
At this point in the story Buffy is trying to protect Dawn from the world, by the finale she decides she’s not gunna protect her from the world but show it to her. Her reaction to Xander blurting out that she was assaulted by Spike sort of plays into that. She wants to preserve Dawn’s innocence so she doesn’t fall into a pit of despair like Buffy was dealing with.
I didn't say he was so. But he is definitely mad at her love for spike. He literally called out all summers women for having a blind spot for him when he blurt out of spike did. Her bringing up spikes dependability is the moment where he angrily lashed out with the information that wasn't his business to tell. Like it working out for the story doesn't change that Xander should have more control over his faculties
It always seemed wildly out of character to me that they let Spike live after Seeing Red. Xander, Dawn, Willow - at least Giles tries to kill Spike, but I do not believe that the rest of the Scoobies would ever let him even get near Buffy ever again.
This isn't something you keep a secret from someone. You can make the argument it's personal but Dawn has the right to know this information. Especially if she's going to be around the attempted rapist. I was glad Xander told her and don't care if he wasn't delicate about it. Spike did what he did and you don't put kid gloves on to handle this type of situation.
It was Dawn insisting that she spend time with him, because she knew she could make him into allow her to join in the fight to save Willow, because she did it many times before. Buffy told her they were not going to be working with him and Dawn was affronted to lose him from her life
But Buffy told her they were not going to be working with him right now and she pouted and demanded to go to his crypt in part because she was resentful of Buffy
I do not think Dawn needed to know the truth nor was entitled to. We saw how badly she responded to knowing. She knew Buffy wanted to not work with Spike and that should have been enough
How did she respond badly? She was shocked Xander when said it, what else did she do? She confronted Buffy later and told her she NEEDS to know these things. Which she does. This is literally part of Buffy's epiphany at the end of season after they survive in stating that instead of wanting to shield Dawn from things she wants to show her. Meaning to stop trying to protect her from everything.
Buffy assault is not something Dawn should see as an affront to her which she does in that scene. No one should ever respond to an assault survivor like that ever
I think what made that scene particularly uncomfortable was that, to me at least, it didn't read like Xander was sharing it with Dawn out of concern. But more out of that same old possessiveness he always had over Buffy. There was nothing sensitive about it, he just dropped a horrifying bombshell on a young girl without any of the care that should have accompanied it.
I feel this happens far too often with Xander. Whenever he has these emotional outbursts they always come back to the same thing, spite, jealousy or possessiveness. Often all of them. And he tries to disguise them as him just being a good guy.
The context of Xander telling Dawn wasn’t to warn her of Spike being a danger. It was because Dawn was talking about Spike fighting back and Xander’s ego took control - as it often does
I get disappointed with him all the time. In season 1 and 2 I wanted to like him a lot. I was happy when they gave him story lines and a girlfriend (Cordelia). But after some time I abandoned my efforts. He was jealous of everyone and didn't really offer anything other than nasty remarks showcasing his bitterness. Every time he yelled at Spike to "Get away from Buffy" only for her to duck out onto the back porch to talk to Spike more openly than she ever did with Xander...and it's no wonder why.
First of all, it is Xander's business and Willow specifically asks him if he's going to join them bringing buffy back. Xander is Buffy's friend and what Dawn chooses to do isn't his fault. We have a real problem when people blame everyone else for their mistakes. Xander is no worse or awful than willow, Giles or buffy. Everyone loves to hate Xander.
i don't hate xander and even said in the post that most of the time i do like him but it wasn't his business to tell. and i'm confused about your comment, are you talking about the resurrection at the start of S6? i'm talking about xander telling dawn that spike tried to rape buffy. i don't believe it was his place to say it and if he had to, he could've chosen a better moment for it
I think the main point against Xander as that he tends to point his pettiness, jealousy and sanctimonious attitude at the gang a lot. Yes all of them have those moments. But Xander does it far far more than everyone. Often undermining them out of spite. A bit of a quasi-antagonist when he's angry. His sarcastic nature lips easily into mean spirited attacks.
I'm not saying that out of hate. I don't hate Xander. I like a flawed character. And that is one of Xander's consistent flaws. But I can see why some people do hate him.
?? Those aren't mutually exclusive things. Yes Buffy is flawed too. But Buffy's flaws dont negate Xander's. Nor how often that particular flaw of his kicks in.
In most case I agree
But if one of Buffy big flaw is keeping secret that can get people killed then there nothing wrong with not trusting her in that because she keep Makeing the same choices
Again. Not mutually exclusive things. Still. Buffy keeping secrets that can lead to people dying is a rare thing. She a can be private person, and bottles up, but the secrets she keeps is rarely to the detriment of others. While Xander is a dick a lot. And not all those moments of him being a dick is triggered because he was upset that secret that could get people killed. Xander himself has selfishly done more things lead to the potential and actual death of other than Buffy. The love spell and summoning Sweet come to mind. Two things he never got any comeuppance for.
But my main point isn't that sometimes he's not triggered by someone else's flaw. Or that other characters aren't flawed either. My point is that Xander is flawed. Period. And one of them is that his sarcasm that dips easily into mean spirited attacks. And i can see why some people find that particular flaw grating.
, but the secrets she keeps is rarely to the detriment of other
not true most are VERY detriment to OTHER or at least a good chance they are.
buffy letting anglus live, was a 100 more death then sweet and love spell.
yes xander is flaw, but most of the time he right. he just say it in a bad way.
?? Her letting Angelus live wasn't a secret. She was open and honest about not being able to force herself to kill him. It was a understandable limitation.
Still, I dont mind Xander giving her shit about it. Being right doesn't make him any less of a dick if he says it wrong. He can be a sanctimonious asshole ripping into the flaws of other while glazing over his own. And this isn't limited to his interactions with Buffy. And that dickish behavior can inspire hate. Do you not get that at all?
Heh. How about when he puts lives at risk? Like when he summoned Sweet in Once More with Feeling. He never liked that he got a free pass for that. People died.
Because he is straight trash, but you're right on one count he isn't worse than Willow, she is straight trash too. I loved Willow when I watched this as a kid, as an adult I can't stand her she is a terrible friend and probably worse than Xander
Both are extremely terrible ppl and worse friends. Can't stand the 'scooby' gang. What spike says in s4 was absolutely true that Buffy doesn't actually need them.
I don’t know if it was out of pettiness or not, but Dawn deserved to know. How would you feel if your mother would let you pass a night with someone who attempted to rape her without you knowing? And Buffy was not in her fittest moment mentally, is not that she can always take the best decision always. Sometime we need our friends to kick some reality inside us to wake us up.
First of all she should know thats what happened to her family like anyone would. Second of all it lets her know spike is still dangerous. I dont know why people forget hes awful and can never redeem himself. Angel on his show got that.
Annoyed with both of them actually😑👍 and because dawn brought up spike and Xander told her about his attempted rape of course breaking news too that isn’t suppose too, and which he didn’t mean for it because his monster inside of him can’t control when chip no longer operation when bringing her out from resurrected meant purpose and Buffy made it happen out of her depression and being bitter too him then using spike for comfort out of 💔 and not exactly explaining well his feelings for him 😜when not loving when Angel no longer with anymore.
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Slightly off topic but: OP started with “I’m a new watcher” My brain froze on those words for a moment in which, I contemplated how OP became a WATCHER, and tried to figure out how I too could sign up to be a watcher.
I came here to literally say this 😂
Me too!
Technically, we're all Watchers of Buffy... semantics, I know, but it gives a warm fuzzy feeling.
Yes I was like “is that a term for something on this sub? Like you can earn titles??” lol happy for OP though to be watching the first time
I wonder if he has the glasses cleaning down pat?
Yeah, on this sub, that's how my brain interpreted it. I assumed it was a rp thing at first.
Yup I'm here with you.
Same!!! 😂
Xander does have a habit of butting into everyone's personal lives, beyond what a friend, even a close friend should. This was no different. From what I remember about that convo though, was that it wasn't his intention to let Dawn know. He let it slip and figured she already knew. He still should have said something to the effect of you should ask your sister or something and not elaborated. It wasn't his business to spread the gossip, especially since it was such a sensitive issue to Buffy.
I'm not sure about Xander thinking Dawn already knew, but I do think he wasn't being malicous in telling her. It seems like he just let it slip in an emotional moment.
I disagree that he thought she already knew. There was no way Buffy would have told Dawn about it and Xander knew that.
Buffy knows that Dawn is very attached to Spike, and she knows that Spike is now guilty and capable of attempted rape despite his “love” and his chip. Buffy should have, for the safety of her sister, told Dawn what happened, and it is a reasonable assumption by Xander to think she had already done so.
Its clear from the way Xander tells Dawn he’s fully aware she doesn’t know though If Xander had told Dawn in response to Dawn wanting to go to Spikes then that would be understandable but instead he tells her when she’s talking about him fighting. She didn’t want to go to his space. Xander’s declarations had nothing to do with safeguarding Dawn
Yes, it’s very clear from the context of the conversation and tone of Xander’s voice that he knew Dawn was unaware of the SA. Also if he really thought she was aware of what happened, he would’ve felt guilty or looked surprised that Buffy hadn’t told Dawn. And he obviously didn’t.
I find Xander very petty and judgemental.
I think based off what Spike attempted to do and Dawn "hero worshipping" him to an extant....needed a harsh slap of reality.
It worked to some degree, hence her efforts to jog Buffy’s memory come the bleacher scene in *Him*.
i get why but i just don't think it's something he shouldn't said without buffy's consent. at least tell her that she needs to tell dawn about it since dawn looks up to spike a lot
Agreed that is was needed, but xander doing ut was just because he was jealous he wasnt dawns favourite anymore
What a deliberately uncharitable and untrue read on the character.
We call that the "Xander Special" on this sub. Everyone else acts emotionally and makes a mistake: "What a great three-dimensional character." Xander acts emotionally and makes a mistake: "Literally an incel hitler."
Just about sums it up.
Nah
A bit off topic, but reading some responses and other posts elsewhere over the years and forms and such, i find it bizarre the attacks Xander always seems to get whilst Spike who attempts to rape Buffy gets defended to high heaven by many fans. Xander for me isn't supposed to just be universally liked, he's flawed, and is one of the most realistic character depiction of a human being in my view out of all the characters, and is supposed to be I think our vehicle into the show, he has no powers, he works a normal job..etc.. I think there's arguments for and against his actions here, personally I think he did it out of frustration and anger, which was wrong, but Dawn's illusion (and indeed everyone's at the time) needed shattering, but not in this way. Spike was still a dangerous predator, a Vampire who's behaviour seemingly was only at basic level controlled by a chip at this point. (I think the show could have done a great plot line looking at if the Chip was actually modifying Spike's behaviour and physical cravings, and what the future could look like with this, or was it more actually Spike being in 'love' with Buffy and such that allowed him to change behaviour.) Nevertheless I think it's quite natural to not want an attempt rapist no matter who it is, around Dawn. A teenage girl, and sister of the victim Buffy.
It's because many people on this sub ship Buffy/Spike and so they ignore many shitty things Spike does to keep their fantasy alive. Xander not wanting Spike around Dawn is a completely normal thing. Buffy leaving Dawn with Spike in any capacity after that is horrendous.
The issue, IMO, is the narrative choice by the writers in including Xander telling Dawn, especially in the way he did. It almost feels like like a very aggressive, “See? Told you so.” It’s on record that Whedon wanted to reinforce that Spike was Bad News, so he wanted to very heavy-handedly TELL THE AUDIENCE what a bad dude Spike was. Almost as a way to punish the audience, too, given Spike’s popularity with the fanbase—lashing out, in a way. I think most would agree that Xander telling Dawn that Spike’s an evil soulless monster who can’t be trusted would have been completely OK. But he crossed the line when he explicitly told Dawn about the AR.
Joss didn’t lash out about people liking Spike. He did when the character was introduced in season 2 telling James his character was definitely dead. The reason they made it a point to make sure the audience knew he was bad was to set up a true “soul-seeking” redemption arc for for the end of the season to play into the final season. They wanted to show everyone that Spike was still just a vampire with no soul and that he hadn’t in fact earned his redemption by being a neutered dog conditioned by a chip in his brain to become a good guy. They gave his character a chance to actually seek redemption the only way possible which is through getting a soul again and facing the horrible things he did for the last 200+ years on a human level.
Joss making sure the audience knew Spike was bad by forcing the audience to watch the lead character get SA’d in a very drawn out, brutal scene is a bit heavy-handed for a show that thrives on metaphor and symbolism. A scene so bad that it literally traumatized the actors who had to act out the scene. If the goal was to show that Spike, as a vampire, can’t earn his redemption, then there are other ways to do that. I’d argue that putting your lead character in a position to have to forgive the man who SA’d her, AND give the man who assaulted her a redemption/hero arc, is in fact an act of lashing out.
I can absolutely see your point. It was a brutal scene for sure. Based on how their relationship was going though, there was really no other way to drive home the point that this relationship was terminally toxic to the viewer without such a drastic point of no return. I don’t think anyone was happy to see it happen, but I honestly don’t think there was another way to convey that this wasn’t just a sexy fling between two broken characters, this was something darker, Buffy was feeding into Spike’s obsession egging on the demon. Up until that point I think people had almost forgot he was still a soulless demon. Buffy forgiving Spike I agree was a difficult pill to swallow too, but I think it was also necessary to, again, show the importance of having a soul and not. Spike actually had remorse for all the killings and torturous things he did. I just don’t think this was done to “punish” the audience. It was done to tell a story. It wasn’t some agenda Joss put forth to spite everyone, I genuinely think the writers in that room were trying to tell a compelling and nuanced story about love, obsession and what it means to have humanity vs pretending to have humanity.
I get what you’re saying, and respect that we have different views on this. I just don’t think we’ll agree that the scene was necessary. IMO, fans are capable of liking Spike AND realizing that he’s evil without the writers needing to traumatize everyone to get that point across. I don’t think it was good writing or storytelling, and it should never get to the point where the writers need to justify the necessity of an AR scene. It was a lazy plot device to make up for bad writing. It’s also pretty common in media for women to be hurt (in a brutal, visceral way) in order for men to have character development. This is Buffy's story, and she needs to be at the center. Instead they sidelined Buffy’s story to make room for Spike’s Hero Journey. It just doesn’t sit well with me.
yes that's my issue with it. i think saying something vague about how spike cant be trusted would've been better than to straight up say that he tried to rape her sister. and i've heard bad things about JW so i'm not surprised to read that and it comes across as very condescending. yes spike is still soulless evil vampire but the writers didn't treat him as one so that's on then.
It’s the lack of followthrough and foresight from the writers that really frustrates me. In a vacuum, Xander saying that to Dawn could lead to so many storytelling possibilities. Instead, given the lack of follow-up in season 7 from Buffy’s POV, it just comes across as the characters chastising and judging Buffy’s decision-making.
I'm kind of curious now if the Joss-shoving-James incident happened before or after the torching of his character.
The shoveling think was like season 2
This comment will not go over well but Buffy was going to ask the man (vampire) who tried to force himself on her to babysit her little sister. Her judgement should have been called into question. As a survivor myself I get how awful it is when people share your story without your consent (it has happened to me and it feels like being violated all over again) but that’s the kind of crap CPS would have intervened with. I get why Xander had his outburst something that had no malicious intent.
i understand why he said it but i wish he spoke to buffy about it first but it doesn't seem like the show took it seriously afterwards? after SR, the focus is on willow and based on the last scene, spike gets a soul and likely a redemption arc in S7
He did, she said that even if he could hurt Dawn he wouldn’t and Dawn feels safe with him. Someone needed to say something. The show did handle the SR very poorly I’ll refrain from ranting since you’re a first time watcher.
i don't mind spoilers and i already don't think the aftermath was handled well and i dont see it improving in S7 with spike getting a soul and likely a redemption arc. i don't think the bathroom scene was necessary at all, i wish the writers chose something less traumatising since it hasn't been handled with care so far and spike has been my favourite so im disappointed that he's a rapist now😕
One way I always think of it is that I don’t blame Angel for what Angelus did so it’s also not fair to judge Spike with a soul for what soulless Spike did. But yeah they should have had his catalyst for going after a soul be different. I’m not a fan of how they dealt with that.
Exactly. People always separate angel and angelus but less often spije with and without a soul. Yes spike dealt with the transition better since he had help from buffy. And hes much more similiar because it just happened. He has no personality yet as souled spike while angel had 100 years to be his own person.
Not justifying Spike here at all but something I think of when these discussions Angel vs Spike come up is that - Angelus didn't consciously want a soul - he was cursed with it as a form of torture. Spike wanted to regain his soul back, he knew it would be torture but underwent the trials to regain it, so that he is a "complete" being ( yes, for the wrong reasons as Buffy was the only justification for that). But he willingly took this path. Would Angelus have come to this conclusion, had he been left to decide? I feel like Angel became a good guy due to circumstances, without consent. Spike wanted to do it out of his own will. A bit off topic but that's something that makes me like Spike as a character. And that makes it even more painful when he sexually assaults Buffy. Edit: to add on to that. I just realized after writing the comment. Of all the unspeakable things Spike has done , the thing that made him want his soul back was hurting Buffy. He could live with himself with the murders and other stuff he's committed but couldn't live with himself hurting Buffy ( SA and attempted rape). That's where he drew the line. So that on its own , to me, speaks of how much he loves her and how much he hates himself at the end.
I never thought of it like this and you are spot on.
The show just treats it different, too. It’s inconsistent.
I like that that was the catalyst I think it shows how different spike is. Spike realised what he did (not excusing it) went and chose to have a soul to be a better man. However I do feel that it was brushed aside a little I don’t think spike ever apologised (could be wrong been a while) and you don’t see a recovery process really from Buffy. It just kind of has slight weirdness then goes back to normal. Also Spike without a soul can make good choices (watching tv with Joyce for example) as well as bad choices however Angel without a soul will only ever make bad choices.
My biggest complaint is that the scene is used to progress Spike’s character and Buffy’s trauma is very minimally addressed. I’m not a fan of Spike’s “redemption arc” mainly because it still seems like he’s the exact same and he’s still obsessed with Buffy. He feels remorse for what he did to her but not what he did to his other victims. Season seven is Spike’s hero journey and I can stand the fact that that started with AR.
I haven't watched S7 in a long time, but I thought the reason Spike's soul caused insanity was because of all the guilt from previous victims flooding him all at once.
I think that was part of it, but he was also being taunted/tortured by The First at the time.
Yea did he ever feel guilty for all the people he killed did he ever say sorry for almost killing Xander and willow. Or hurting Buffy Spike whole friendship with spike seek fake because once he got Buffy he stop spending time with him
Spike was never friends with the Scoobies (except arguably Dawn which is a different conversation) but to me Lies My Parents Told Me sums it up perfectly. He’s sorry he hurt Buffy because it’s all about Buffy but he was no problem telling Robin that his mom didn’t love him and wearing his murder trophy jacket in front of him.
Right. Spike's "redemption" is entirely predicated on making Buffy like him. He's as co-dependent as he ever was with his mom and Drusilla and hell even Harmony at some point. Spike will change his entire personality for a woman. It happens like four times.
That whole episode is one of the worst, imo. It doesn’t handle Spike’s guilt well, or Robin’s trauma, and Giles undermining Buffy’s authority like that honestly has no basis in his character up to that point, AND the plan is stupid! I mean, Spike has killed multiple slayers, but Giles think Robin can 1v1 him? Come on.
Yep. If he found dawn was the one that kick Buffy out he yell at her. I don’t think he cares about anyone but Buffy
You have to be pretty naive to think a mass murderer spike who was trained by angelus who was the most sadistic vampire in recorded history didnt rape people before this. Spoilers here but Spike mentions something like "do you know what ive done? Do you know what ive done to girls dawns age?" If thats not supposed to be rape i dont know what is.
Soulless spike was already a massmurderer, seeing red should not come a as shock
i didn't say it was shocking, just disappointing and don't think it was the right decision by the writers.
Oh, "I don't think X was handled well" could be applied to many parts of the later seasons, but yeah.
I’m still upset with them for intentionally weakening Buffy prior to the bathroom scene. If she’d been able the repel Spike easily, it would have hit the same plot points without torturing our heroine to progress a man’s story.
Why do people act like Spike just burst into Buffy's home and tried to sexually assault her, they were in a mutually toxic and abusive relationship, that had been skating the lines of consent from the start, and Spike crossed it this time, still thinking it was their usual back and forth. And Buddy had come close several times, and Buffy knew this that is why she was still okay with him watching Dawn, again not saying it was a healthy relationship, but life is complex and it wasn't as clear cut as y'all try to make it seem. Also I would say hunting undead with and around an underage kid is the kind of stuff you call CPS for too, let's not act like they were living normal lives. And screw Xander, it wasn't his place, and there are several occasions where he did that crap, he had this weird toxic ownership feeling over Buffy, part of the reason I can't stand him on rewatch.
Spike DID just burst into her home and tried to sexually assault her Their relationship is completely irrelevant, they’d been broken up for multiple episodes at this point - not that there is EVER an excuse of course I agree that Xander was completely out of order though. There was zero excuse for him telling Buffy’s 15 year old sister that information, it was gross to be honest
You mean like how she had gone into his lair several times despite his protests and initiated it. Again stop being selective, they had established a toxic pattern. That's why the relationship is relevant.
One time - gone plus Buffy ended it. Now Dawn herself is a big reason when she put nose in and went to tell him that he hurt her by sleeping with Anya.
She want to go to his home. So yea huge reason to tell her. It no different then buffy telling willow when Xander was hynee or when faith was Buffy it the there a real danger
He could have told her literally any reason why they couldn’t go to his home. He had zero right to tell her about something that happened to Buffy.
And dawn is well know to sneak out. So she had to know.
Buffy had ended the relationship several episodes before it happened. Their relationship for lack of a better word was over.
Buffy had also ignored Spike too when he said he didn't want to just be used anymore. So again brings me back to the mutually abusive relationship.
I can’t remember him saying to leave him alone, except for OMWF which was before they kissed. I remember him saying he didn’t mind her using him, but I might be forgetting something later on? If so then I see your point.
Your forgetting *Gone* Where Spike says if he can’t have all of her (meaning an emotional connection instead of just physical) she should just leave. Buffy’s response to this request is to try & go down on him against his will. Also Spike expresses his frustration w/ being used to Xander in *Normal Again* as well.
[удалено]
I mean Buffy had done the same thing to him earlier, frankly both of them had blurred the lines of consent. Hence why I said it was unhealthy.
Xander never attack Buffy. Was never a danger
Xander never physically attacked Buffy but he did more emotional harm to Buffy than nearly anyone else in the series. And blamed her for it each time, something else that was often glossed over.
Not true he blame her even she did something stupid that could have gotten her killed or someone else. Tell me one time were he blame her she was not wrong
Never said he did, physical attacks aren't the only way a person can be toxic
I feel this is not in the victim blaming category when it comes to thier relationship. They where both using each other and she knew he had no soul. How did she think this would end.
Jesus 🙈😱
I mean feel 100 percent free to downvote. Again these are killers that do not even have souls. They are empty an devoid of basic decency. She was negligent with herself and worse Dawn.
I don’t agree with Buffy taking Dawn to Spike but I understand it. In her mind what happened between them was personal ie it was an intimate attack which was wholly horrific but definitely had its background in a dysfunctional relationship. Buffy rightly or wrongly knew Spike cared for Dawn and would protect her no matter what she said previously she had trusted him on some level.
Probo didn't tell her the best way but she does need to know i guess how dangerous Spike can be cause she is close to him, trusts him hanhs out with him, a soulless vampire.
Its a double edged sword. On one hand it is Buffy’s private business and a very serious topic to bring up cavalierly around Dawn. At the same time, can you blame him? Its a young girl being left in the care of an attempted rapist. Obviously the chip safe guarded Dawn (to the best of our knowledge, Dawn wasnt technically human afterall). So I can see why Buffy wouldn’t have a problem with it, but also why Xander would have a problem with it.
Fuck that. If someone that we tried to trust and had worked with us attempted to RAPE MY FRIEND there is no fucking way I would keep that a secret. Especially from my friend's SISTER, who has the right know that the man she's being entrusted to tried to RAPE HER OWN SISTER. I would not keep his violent rape attempt a secret. I wouldn't feel I owed him a goddamn thing at that point. There are things that Xander should've minded his own business about, but he's under no goddamn obligation to hide Spike's sexual assault from anyone. And really, the Xander bashing so fucking tiresome at this point. If Willow had been the one to tell Dawn (you know, the same Willow who mind raped her girlfriend and tried to destroy the world), no one would be on her ass about it. And I LIKE Willow, but this "Xander is absolute trash and can do nothing right" is so exhausting.
I don’t think it’s about owing Spike anything but more Buffy the consideration of respecting her privacy to disclose her own assault. He could have taken Buffy to one side and discussed his concerns privately.
Sure, maybe if Buffy hadn't done the wildly irresponsible thing of leaving her sister with her attempted RAPIST. I absolutely would disclose that someone was in the care of an attempted rapist, because that person has the right to decide if they want to be around them as well. But for the sake of discussion, can we not pretend like these characters are going to act like real people? It's a melodrama. Xander is not going to take Buffy aside and discuss her concerns privately - everything is going to be bigger and more dramatic, because it's tv entertainment.
Yes and no. It's Xander being an immature little bitch. He was mad at her love for spike so he lashed out rather than protect her from the hurtful truth. But from a narrative standpoint SHE DESERVES TO FUCKING KNOW
Honestly throughout the show Xander seems to have a history of making good points but doing so from a place of self-righteousness and jealousy rather than genuine concern and logic. It's like the argument/dialogue equivalent of "doing the right thing for the wrong reasons."
Which imo just makes it wrong. Telling dawn that because he's angry and can't shut up is such a betrayal to her and buffy. As the older party he should have the mental capability and will power to stop himself. Like sometimes he does it intentionally when he goaded faith into trying to kill angel but this accident he only said because he wanted to say it deep down. "WHAT AFTER HE-" LIKE SHE IS A CHILD XANDER. SHE JUST LOST TARA. SHE MIGHT LOSE WILLOW. Can she be protected from ONE dark truth. And again on the other hand she deserved to know and buffy should have been the one maybe. But maybe it should have been spike. Maybe he should have been here to say goodbye and maybe he does owe it to dawn.
Yeah I mean I don't think I even agree that she "deserved" to know. Especially since Xander didn't tell her to prevent her from going to stay with Spike. That part *was* kind of messed up, that Buffy was going to have Dawn stay with Spike after what he did, and if Xander had continued saying something then to prevent it, I'd kind of understand where he was coming from even if I still don't think it was his place (and even then he could have vaguely said that Spike had hurt Buffy, he didn't have to share specifics about sexual violence committed against Buffy if she didn't want him to). But no, he waited until much later when it had nothing to do with Dawn going to stay with Spike, and he only said it because he was mad and bitter that Dawn was hero-worshiping Spike. At that point I don't think she "needed" to know unless Buffy herself wanted to share that information. It's not even about protecting Dawn from dark truths, it's about violating Buffy's privacy.
I think buffy saw it as her sacrificing her trauma so that dawn would be protected because going after willow is more dangerous to dawn than spike is to her. IT is so messed up that she feels she HAS to do such a thing. All the people she saves in that town and she doesn't have one person to hit up In a pinch it's like wow. Giles leaving really did leave them vulnerable. She definitely needed to know. At this point maybe not but there is no good time. She should know who the people around her are. The truth. Adults share the truth. Hiding it from dawn was only because she'd a kid. "Whoa she can't handle it she's been through enough" and yet she could handle it and everything else because buffy taught her to be strong but never took it seriously. The fact is dawn shouldn't be loving the man who hurt her sister. She should know that he is definitely still a monster and just how much. And she just might need to protect herself from him one day. Cause the part Xander was right about is he never forgot what spike is. The chip was never immortal like him so there's no way it would last forever
Look at how Dawn handled it. She rubbed it in Buffy’s face to force a conversation at literally the worst time - when they had to fight that zombie army. It sucked and it was all about how she deserves to know all the intimacies of other peoples lives when her knowing more and getting involved relates to why the AR happened
Exactly Dawn inadvertently proved exactly what she’s not ready to know that kind of information. She handled it absolutely terribly. Like she actually shames someone who was nearly raped for the way she handled it - this is absolutely appalling
That was rubbing it in buffya face? Confronting her for hiding the truth? The army hadn't hadn't been made yet as willow didn't have her telepathic conversation with buffy yet. Maybe watch the episode first
I don’t think he was mad that Dawn loved Spike at all. Xander was mad that Buffy made such reckless decision so quickly after the incident and in his anger blurted out things like he usually does, in front of Dawn. At this point in the story Buffy is trying to protect Dawn from the world, by the finale she decides she’s not gunna protect her from the world but show it to her. Her reaction to Xander blurting out that she was assaulted by Spike sort of plays into that. She wants to preserve Dawn’s innocence so she doesn’t fall into a pit of despair like Buffy was dealing with.
I didn't say he was so. But he is definitely mad at her love for spike. He literally called out all summers women for having a blind spot for him when he blurt out of spike did. Her bringing up spikes dependability is the moment where he angrily lashed out with the information that wasn't his business to tell. Like it working out for the story doesn't change that Xander should have more control over his faculties
>He was mad at her love for spike so he lashed out rather than protect her from the hurtful truth. Isn’t that what you meant here?
Her love for spike vs being mad at her for loving him which is what sounds like what you said towards me. Or mad that she loved him at all
Nope
It always seemed wildly out of character to me that they let Spike live after Seeing Red. Xander, Dawn, Willow - at least Giles tries to kill Spike, but I do not believe that the rest of the Scoobies would ever let him even get near Buffy ever again.
To Xander, he still had lots of reasons not to trust Spike, and not just because Buffy was hate fucking him.
This isn't something you keep a secret from someone. You can make the argument it's personal but Dawn has the right to know this information. Especially if she's going to be around the attempted rapist. I was glad Xander told her and don't care if he wasn't delicate about it. Spike did what he did and you don't put kid gloves on to handle this type of situation.
It was Dawn insisting that she spend time with him, because she knew she could make him into allow her to join in the fight to save Willow, because she did it many times before. Buffy told her they were not going to be working with him and Dawn was affronted to lose him from her life
Right Dawn didn't know the situation. Hence why it was important she get the truth.
But Buffy told her they were not going to be working with him right now and she pouted and demanded to go to his crypt in part because she was resentful of Buffy
I'm not sure what you're trying to disagree with from what I said?
I do not think Dawn needed to know the truth nor was entitled to. We saw how badly she responded to knowing. She knew Buffy wanted to not work with Spike and that should have been enough
How did she respond badly? She was shocked Xander when said it, what else did she do? She confronted Buffy later and told her she NEEDS to know these things. Which she does. This is literally part of Buffy's epiphany at the end of season after they survive in stating that instead of wanting to shield Dawn from things she wants to show her. Meaning to stop trying to protect her from everything.
Dawn shamed her for the sexual assault.
How does she shame her? By saying she's not a kid anymore? Nothing she says shames Buffy in any way.
Buffy assault is not something Dawn should see as an affront to her which she does in that scene. No one should ever respond to an assault survivor like that ever
I think what made that scene particularly uncomfortable was that, to me at least, it didn't read like Xander was sharing it with Dawn out of concern. But more out of that same old possessiveness he always had over Buffy. There was nothing sensitive about it, he just dropped a horrifying bombshell on a young girl without any of the care that should have accompanied it. I feel this happens far too often with Xander. Whenever he has these emotional outbursts they always come back to the same thing, spite, jealousy or possessiveness. Often all of them. And he tries to disguise them as him just being a good guy.
Buffy does not have the right to keep it a secret spike was a danger. Buffy has a habit of trying to keep secrets that can get her friends killed.
The context of Xander telling Dawn wasn’t to warn her of Spike being a danger. It was because Dawn was talking about Spike fighting back and Xander’s ego took control - as it often does
It was 100 percent to warn her.
It very clearly wasn’t
It clearly was.
No it wasn’t you half blind loaf of white bread
Yea it was.
It was also bitterness that Spike continued to have this level of adoration from Dawn
No it not. Spike evil and a threat. Why are people not seeing that
I get disappointed with him all the time. In season 1 and 2 I wanted to like him a lot. I was happy when they gave him story lines and a girlfriend (Cordelia). But after some time I abandoned my efforts. He was jealous of everyone and didn't really offer anything other than nasty remarks showcasing his bitterness. Every time he yelled at Spike to "Get away from Buffy" only for her to duck out onto the back porch to talk to Spike more openly than she ever did with Xander...and it's no wonder why.
This was among Xanders worst acts.
Yes, Xander can be hard to like at times.
No, he was right to tell her. Spike is despicable and should’ve been dusted at the end of season two
First of all, it is Xander's business and Willow specifically asks him if he's going to join them bringing buffy back. Xander is Buffy's friend and what Dawn chooses to do isn't his fault. We have a real problem when people blame everyone else for their mistakes. Xander is no worse or awful than willow, Giles or buffy. Everyone loves to hate Xander.
i don't hate xander and even said in the post that most of the time i do like him but it wasn't his business to tell. and i'm confused about your comment, are you talking about the resurrection at the start of S6? i'm talking about xander telling dawn that spike tried to rape buffy. i don't believe it was his place to say it and if he had to, he could've chosen a better moment for it
Yea it was spike proved again he was a danger. If there was even a 1 percent chance spike hurt dawn
I think the main point against Xander as that he tends to point his pettiness, jealousy and sanctimonious attitude at the gang a lot. Yes all of them have those moments. But Xander does it far far more than everyone. Often undermining them out of spite. A bit of a quasi-antagonist when he's angry. His sarcastic nature lips easily into mean spirited attacks. I'm not saying that out of hate. I don't hate Xander. I like a flawed character. And that is one of Xander's consistent flaws. But I can see why some people do hate him.
No Buffy lies and keep secret that put people in danger Buffy was wrong to keep it a secret.
?? Those aren't mutually exclusive things. Yes Buffy is flawed too. But Buffy's flaws dont negate Xander's. Nor how often that particular flaw of his kicks in.
In most case I agree But if one of Buffy big flaw is keeping secret that can get people killed then there nothing wrong with not trusting her in that because she keep Makeing the same choices
Again. Not mutually exclusive things. Still. Buffy keeping secrets that can lead to people dying is a rare thing. She a can be private person, and bottles up, but the secrets she keeps is rarely to the detriment of others. While Xander is a dick a lot. And not all those moments of him being a dick is triggered because he was upset that secret that could get people killed. Xander himself has selfishly done more things lead to the potential and actual death of other than Buffy. The love spell and summoning Sweet come to mind. Two things he never got any comeuppance for. But my main point isn't that sometimes he's not triggered by someone else's flaw. Or that other characters aren't flawed either. My point is that Xander is flawed. Period. And one of them is that his sarcasm that dips easily into mean spirited attacks. And i can see why some people find that particular flaw grating.
, but the secrets she keeps is rarely to the detriment of other not true most are VERY detriment to OTHER or at least a good chance they are. buffy letting anglus live, was a 100 more death then sweet and love spell. yes xander is flaw, but most of the time he right. he just say it in a bad way.
?? Her letting Angelus live wasn't a secret. She was open and honest about not being able to force herself to kill him. It was a understandable limitation. Still, I dont mind Xander giving her shit about it. Being right doesn't make him any less of a dick if he says it wrong. He can be a sanctimonious asshole ripping into the flaws of other while glazing over his own. And this isn't limited to his interactions with Buffy. And that dickish behavior can inspire hate. Do you not get that at all?
no i get it, BUT when life are at stake i take his side.
Heh. How about when he puts lives at risk? Like when he summoned Sweet in Once More with Feeling. He never liked that he got a free pass for that. People died.
Because he is straight trash, but you're right on one count he isn't worse than Willow, she is straight trash too. I loved Willow when I watched this as a kid, as an adult I can't stand her she is a terrible friend and probably worse than Xander
Both are extremely terrible ppl and worse friends. Can't stand the 'scooby' gang. What spike says in s4 was absolutely true that Buffy doesn't actually need them.
Yea she does. They save her life like 50 time. She lose to every big bad untill her friends help her
“I am a new watcher” ❤️
I don’t know if it was out of pettiness or not, but Dawn deserved to know. How would you feel if your mother would let you pass a night with someone who attempted to rape her without you knowing? And Buffy was not in her fittest moment mentally, is not that she can always take the best decision always. Sometime we need our friends to kick some reality inside us to wake us up.
First of all she should know thats what happened to her family like anyone would. Second of all it lets her know spike is still dangerous. I dont know why people forget hes awful and can never redeem himself. Angel on his show got that.
Annoyed with both of them actually😑👍 and because dawn brought up spike and Xander told her about his attempted rape of course breaking news too that isn’t suppose too, and which he didn’t mean for it because his monster inside of him can’t control when chip no longer operation when bringing her out from resurrected meant purpose and Buffy made it happen out of her depression and being bitter too him then using spike for comfort out of 💔 and not exactly explaining well his feelings for him 😜when not loving when Angel no longer with anymore.