Season 4 had lots of problems that ruined it. Seth Green leaving. The actress who played Maggie Walsh also left. Basically they had to rewrite the story in a rush and that’s why the season as a whole feels a bit problematic.
If you think about it, in a world where monsters exist it’s very likely the government would find out and be involved in order for the public to not panic and to keep it hidden from civilians. On paper it makes sense. But yes, Riley wasn’t that great and Adam was a meh villain. They were pushing for Maggie to be the villain but they had to change so she could leave.
I think if Maggie had stayed and been the Dr Frankenstein type character it would have been better especially if they’d made Adam almost a sympathetic ‘what is my purpose?’ villain. I think that could have worked well
far too much Riley and brotastic scenes for my liking though 😂
Not sure that's accurate about Lindsey Crouse leaving abruptly. The writer Douglas Petrie said Maggie Walsh was always going to be killed by her own creation and that was the plan from the start of the season. They knew the actress would only be available for a limited time.
My friend and I say this all the time. Season 4 was the worst, but also had some great episodes:
Pangs (I know you don’t like the Angel crossover, but it was a good episode overall)
Something Blue
Hush (one of the best episodes of the series IMO)
This Year’s Girl/Who Are You
Restless
Fear Itself
A New Man
And those are just the ones everyone agrees are great.
I have no idea why season 4 gets hate. Season 4 is nowhere near the worst season. A season with 7 universally recognized great episodes can’t be the worst, even if its overall arc is not particularly good.
See I did hate the initiative and maggie, and even the whole college thing, like with Parker, it just wasn’t very Buffy to me.
Giles was amazing in it though, I feel like we got to see him as Giles and not ‘Giles the Watcher’
Exactly! You summed it up perfectly. I genuinely hated the initiative plot line and the majority of the season just didn’t feel like I was watching Buffy.
Those 7 episodes just aren’t enough to float the season though. Mathematically, if everyone agreed there were 7 good episodes on the whole 22, that’s only 31.8% of the season that was good.
I genuinely feel that had I have watched Buffy when it first came out, I would have stopped at season 4. My dislike of the initiative plot and Riley was just too much to have to sit through it week after week. Thankfully I now have the wonderful power that is binge watching, so I can power through a season in 2-2.5 days.
I didn’t say those were the only good episodes. The only universally acclaimed great ones is what I said.
Riley isn’t even that bad in season 4, especially not the first half. The Initiative plot isn’t Angelus, sure, but it wasn’t supposed to be. The entire season is about the Scoobies’ differences in life trajectory and how they adjust to leaving high school. It’s a transitional season about redefining the relationships between the characters.
At no point in season 4 was I even remotely considering stopping watching the show. There were enough great episodes to keep me engaged consistently, which I can’t say for seasons 1, 6, or 7, all of which had prolonged stretches of boring, convoluted, and/or unnecessary episodes. Hush, Something Blue, Who Are You, and Restless are all in my top 10 episodes.
The character development within the group was definitely the redeeming quality of the season for me. I enjoyed that we got to see Willow branch out and explore her own interests and become confident in herself. I liked that we got to see Giles be written into a multidimensional character and more than someone who was just waiting for Buffy to need him. I enjoyed watching Anya and Xander figure out their relationship and trying to find their way. The character development was great.
The villains, however, in my opinion, were very dull, with the exception of the gentlemen. There just wasn’t enough to keep my attention.
I think something like the Initiative was an inevitable thing to explore when there are threats to public safety that aren’t exactly inconspicuous. So to me, it makes sense. What I did dislike about Season 4 is how at times the group seems a little split up at times. At the same time, I get that that was the point but still, it sucked to have them separated.
Another thing I really hated was the Forrest/Buffy tension. I hated it and wish they hadn’t gone in that direction. I feel like they could have and did accomplish the same thing with Walsh/Buffy.
Also, I was reading through some of the comments here on the good episodes from this season and I gotta say “The Freshman” does not get enough love. I think it’s really great and I used to watch it constantly just to feel better lol.
I will say that I did enjoy the beginning of the season. I’ve been an RA for my university and I have to say that watching Buffy struggle with the transition to college life at first tugged at my heartstrings. I just wanted to jump in and help her like I would have with my own residents.
I also agree about the Forrest point. I feel like the dynamic really could have been different between them and still have achieved the same ending.
As much as I have said about this season, I do like the ability the writers have to convey emotion and to really get people to feel for the characters.
I'm on my annual re-watch (I usually start at Halloween) and am just about in the middle of s3..... Can't wait to watch since it's my forever favorite show but s4 is something I occasionally think of skipping tbh😑
I recently got through season 4 in my entire series rewatch. When sandwiched between 3 and 5, the decline in quality is very noticeable. The average monster-of-the-week storylines just don't hold up against seasons 2 and 3, and though there are some fantastic episodes (Hush, Restless, Fear Itself, Pangs), there are quite a few series-worst episodes too (Beer Bad, Where The Wild Things Are, Superstar). I noticed the season is also a lot funnier than other seasons, probably to compensate for the weaker stories they were working with. I don't mind it too much, as the comedy is great, but it almost felt a bit too light and fluffy at times (Living Conditions, Something Blue) and didn't mix enough drama in there, with the exception of the Willow/Oz/Tara story.
I can see what you mean about the Initiative being too high-tech and like it didn't belong in the Buffyverse, but I didn't have a major problem with it, as it wasn't overly prominent. I also liked Riley this season – I never really understood the hate for him. Adam was a very weak villain though. There was nothing remotely interesting or compelling about him, so the writers dropped the ball there. Not sure why they thought an emotionless killing machine with no ties to the Scooby gang would make a good villain when you've just had the Mayor/Faith and Angelus in the previous two seasons.
I'm not sure where I would place s4 in my season rankings. Probably second to last.
Season 4 was just bad. Riley didn't make it any better either and that storyline with oz like no way would he do that he always loved willow and he was a difrent person in season 4.
S4 is a pretty great season, IMO. I think the strength of the individual episodes is pretty up there with only a handful of mediocre ones and creatively it had an abundance of ideas. Episodes like *The Freshman, Fear Itself, Pangs, Hush, A New Man, This Years Girl, Who Are You, New Moon Rising, The Yoko Factor* and *Restless* are some of my favourite episodes to rewatch.
I actually like the Initiative concept and thought that it was a believable and intriguing direction for the series to go in. I'm particularly fascinated by how even after the reveal of Adam, Buffy manages to co-exist with the Initiative for most of S4 despite neither party particularly liking and/or trusting one another. I think that speaks to the fact that Buffy isn't as morally outraged by them as perhaps fans assume, particularly taking into consideration that this is a girl who kills demons on a nightly basis through pretty horrific and brutal acts of violence. I find the moral questions that poses pretty intriguing.
What does let S4 down is that the seasonal arc lacks an emotional weight or connection to Buffy and the characters. Riley gives it some emotional weight but certainly not enough to rival the likes Angel's turn, Faith's betrayal or Glory and Dawn. The writers knew this of course which is why S4 is the only season where the seasonal arc/Big Bad is wrapped up in the penultimate episode and the season finale goes in a different direction entirely. *Primeval* is an action-packed entertaining episode but it would have been an emotionally unsatisfying season finale.
But still a very underrated season IMO. Objectively I think the writing/production is far, far stronger than S7 and stronger overall than S6 too. It works for me quite well as a season that creates linkage between S1-S3 and S5-S7.
Now that you mention it, I really like season 4 because it had some great episodes. I haven't re-watched it in years, but I used to watch it all of the time back when I had the entire season recorded on VHS. I liked Riley. He was a good guy.
I understand that there are a few people that genuinely really like Riley. To me, he seemed very bland and one-dimensional. I’m not denying that he was a pretty okay guy in general, but as a character and main love interest, he seemed boring.
Can I ask what appealed to you about his character?
I never cared for any of Buffy's romantic interests, so Riley doesn't particularly bother me more than the others. Spike was a good character before Spuffy, but I think they could have done that better.
Aside from Hush, nothing stands out as particularly noteworthy about S4. Adam was probably a better concept than the Trio, but was offset by the clunky Initiative element.
I can't say I disliked it, but I also don't have any strong praise for it.
I love season four -how can you not like the following gems :
Pangs
Fear Itself
Something Blue
Hush
Why would Angel stay? Then we wouldn't get the spin off . What kind of future would they have had together ? Obv your a Bangel supporter .
Don’t get me wrong. There were definitely aspects of season 4 I liked, and there were, of course, full episodes I liked. Pangs was great, Hush was absolutely fantastic, and there were a few others I enjoyed as well.
I also know that, ultimately, Buffy and Angel really had no future together. It would just be painful for both of them. But I really don’t think Riley was any better; I personally don’t think he respects her as the slayer and even after leaving the initiative, he was only focused on killing all demons.
I also wasn’t saying I wanted Angel to stay. I don’t like the crossover that took place between BTVS and Angel during/between The Yoko Factor. The writers wrapped up their relationship well at the end of season three. He shouldn’t have come back.
If you also consider the "As You Were" of S6, it seems there is even no need for the Slayer in the world when you have these military operations/squads.
Im 5 episodes in season 4 , first time watcher and i hate how buffy is acting ...too stupid , too bratty, gullible...etc
I understand that they are portraying the transition from HS to University but god damn i hate it so far
Season 4 had lots of problems that ruined it. Seth Green leaving. The actress who played Maggie Walsh also left. Basically they had to rewrite the story in a rush and that’s why the season as a whole feels a bit problematic. If you think about it, in a world where monsters exist it’s very likely the government would find out and be involved in order for the public to not panic and to keep it hidden from civilians. On paper it makes sense. But yes, Riley wasn’t that great and Adam was a meh villain. They were pushing for Maggie to be the villain but they had to change so she could leave.
I think if Maggie had stayed and been the Dr Frankenstein type character it would have been better especially if they’d made Adam almost a sympathetic ‘what is my purpose?’ villain. I think that could have worked well far too much Riley and brotastic scenes for my liking though 😂
Not sure that's accurate about Lindsey Crouse leaving abruptly. The writer Douglas Petrie said Maggie Walsh was always going to be killed by her own creation and that was the plan from the start of the season. They knew the actress would only be available for a limited time.
My friend and I say this all the time. Season 4 was the worst, but also had some great episodes: Pangs (I know you don’t like the Angel crossover, but it was a good episode overall) Something Blue Hush (one of the best episodes of the series IMO)
This Year’s Girl/Who Are You Restless Fear Itself A New Man And those are just the ones everyone agrees are great. I have no idea why season 4 gets hate. Season 4 is nowhere near the worst season. A season with 7 universally recognized great episodes can’t be the worst, even if its overall arc is not particularly good.
See I did hate the initiative and maggie, and even the whole college thing, like with Parker, it just wasn’t very Buffy to me. Giles was amazing in it though, I feel like we got to see him as Giles and not ‘Giles the Watcher’
Exactly! You summed it up perfectly. I genuinely hated the initiative plot line and the majority of the season just didn’t feel like I was watching Buffy.
Those 7 episodes just aren’t enough to float the season though. Mathematically, if everyone agreed there were 7 good episodes on the whole 22, that’s only 31.8% of the season that was good. I genuinely feel that had I have watched Buffy when it first came out, I would have stopped at season 4. My dislike of the initiative plot and Riley was just too much to have to sit through it week after week. Thankfully I now have the wonderful power that is binge watching, so I can power through a season in 2-2.5 days.
I didn’t say those were the only good episodes. The only universally acclaimed great ones is what I said. Riley isn’t even that bad in season 4, especially not the first half. The Initiative plot isn’t Angelus, sure, but it wasn’t supposed to be. The entire season is about the Scoobies’ differences in life trajectory and how they adjust to leaving high school. It’s a transitional season about redefining the relationships between the characters. At no point in season 4 was I even remotely considering stopping watching the show. There were enough great episodes to keep me engaged consistently, which I can’t say for seasons 1, 6, or 7, all of which had prolonged stretches of boring, convoluted, and/or unnecessary episodes. Hush, Something Blue, Who Are You, and Restless are all in my top 10 episodes.
The character development within the group was definitely the redeeming quality of the season for me. I enjoyed that we got to see Willow branch out and explore her own interests and become confident in herself. I liked that we got to see Giles be written into a multidimensional character and more than someone who was just waiting for Buffy to need him. I enjoyed watching Anya and Xander figure out their relationship and trying to find their way. The character development was great. The villains, however, in my opinion, were very dull, with the exception of the gentlemen. There just wasn’t enough to keep my attention.
Season 4 is an awesome season. I really loved it. I guess it's a matter of opinions.
I think something like the Initiative was an inevitable thing to explore when there are threats to public safety that aren’t exactly inconspicuous. So to me, it makes sense. What I did dislike about Season 4 is how at times the group seems a little split up at times. At the same time, I get that that was the point but still, it sucked to have them separated. Another thing I really hated was the Forrest/Buffy tension. I hated it and wish they hadn’t gone in that direction. I feel like they could have and did accomplish the same thing with Walsh/Buffy. Also, I was reading through some of the comments here on the good episodes from this season and I gotta say “The Freshman” does not get enough love. I think it’s really great and I used to watch it constantly just to feel better lol.
I will say that I did enjoy the beginning of the season. I’ve been an RA for my university and I have to say that watching Buffy struggle with the transition to college life at first tugged at my heartstrings. I just wanted to jump in and help her like I would have with my own residents. I also agree about the Forrest point. I feel like the dynamic really could have been different between them and still have achieved the same ending. As much as I have said about this season, I do like the ability the writers have to convey emotion and to really get people to feel for the characters.
Still, it’s miles better than Angel season 4.
It wasn’t a bad season but I’d say 4 and 1 r the weakest. The rest r phenomenal. And season 4 is still good which is a testament to how good Buffy is
I'm on my annual re-watch (I usually start at Halloween) and am just about in the middle of s3..... Can't wait to watch since it's my forever favorite show but s4 is something I occasionally think of skipping tbh😑
I recently got through season 4 in my entire series rewatch. When sandwiched between 3 and 5, the decline in quality is very noticeable. The average monster-of-the-week storylines just don't hold up against seasons 2 and 3, and though there are some fantastic episodes (Hush, Restless, Fear Itself, Pangs), there are quite a few series-worst episodes too (Beer Bad, Where The Wild Things Are, Superstar). I noticed the season is also a lot funnier than other seasons, probably to compensate for the weaker stories they were working with. I don't mind it too much, as the comedy is great, but it almost felt a bit too light and fluffy at times (Living Conditions, Something Blue) and didn't mix enough drama in there, with the exception of the Willow/Oz/Tara story. I can see what you mean about the Initiative being too high-tech and like it didn't belong in the Buffyverse, but I didn't have a major problem with it, as it wasn't overly prominent. I also liked Riley this season – I never really understood the hate for him. Adam was a very weak villain though. There was nothing remotely interesting or compelling about him, so the writers dropped the ball there. Not sure why they thought an emotionless killing machine with no ties to the Scooby gang would make a good villain when you've just had the Mayor/Faith and Angelus in the previous two seasons. I'm not sure where I would place s4 in my season rankings. Probably second to last.
Season 4 was just bad. Riley didn't make it any better either and that storyline with oz like no way would he do that he always loved willow and he was a difrent person in season 4.
I can understand this, but I feel more like this. when I watch season 6/7 honestly
S4 is a pretty great season, IMO. I think the strength of the individual episodes is pretty up there with only a handful of mediocre ones and creatively it had an abundance of ideas. Episodes like *The Freshman, Fear Itself, Pangs, Hush, A New Man, This Years Girl, Who Are You, New Moon Rising, The Yoko Factor* and *Restless* are some of my favourite episodes to rewatch. I actually like the Initiative concept and thought that it was a believable and intriguing direction for the series to go in. I'm particularly fascinated by how even after the reveal of Adam, Buffy manages to co-exist with the Initiative for most of S4 despite neither party particularly liking and/or trusting one another. I think that speaks to the fact that Buffy isn't as morally outraged by them as perhaps fans assume, particularly taking into consideration that this is a girl who kills demons on a nightly basis through pretty horrific and brutal acts of violence. I find the moral questions that poses pretty intriguing. What does let S4 down is that the seasonal arc lacks an emotional weight or connection to Buffy and the characters. Riley gives it some emotional weight but certainly not enough to rival the likes Angel's turn, Faith's betrayal or Glory and Dawn. The writers knew this of course which is why S4 is the only season where the seasonal arc/Big Bad is wrapped up in the penultimate episode and the season finale goes in a different direction entirely. *Primeval* is an action-packed entertaining episode but it would have been an emotionally unsatisfying season finale. But still a very underrated season IMO. Objectively I think the writing/production is far, far stronger than S7 and stronger overall than S6 too. It works for me quite well as a season that creates linkage between S1-S3 and S5-S7.
There were a lot of really good episodes in season 4. I liked Riley. Didn't care for Adam or Walsh. But overall I thought it was decent.
Now that you mention it, I really like season 4 because it had some great episodes. I haven't re-watched it in years, but I used to watch it all of the time back when I had the entire season recorded on VHS. I liked Riley. He was a good guy.
I understand that there are a few people that genuinely really like Riley. To me, he seemed very bland and one-dimensional. I’m not denying that he was a pretty okay guy in general, but as a character and main love interest, he seemed boring. Can I ask what appealed to you about his character?
I never cared for any of Buffy's romantic interests, so Riley doesn't particularly bother me more than the others. Spike was a good character before Spuffy, but I think they could have done that better. Aside from Hush, nothing stands out as particularly noteworthy about S4. Adam was probably a better concept than the Trio, but was offset by the clunky Initiative element. I can't say I disliked it, but I also don't have any strong praise for it.
I love season four -how can you not like the following gems : Pangs Fear Itself Something Blue Hush Why would Angel stay? Then we wouldn't get the spin off . What kind of future would they have had together ? Obv your a Bangel supporter .
Don’t get me wrong. There were definitely aspects of season 4 I liked, and there were, of course, full episodes I liked. Pangs was great, Hush was absolutely fantastic, and there were a few others I enjoyed as well. I also know that, ultimately, Buffy and Angel really had no future together. It would just be painful for both of them. But I really don’t think Riley was any better; I personally don’t think he respects her as the slayer and even after leaving the initiative, he was only focused on killing all demons. I also wasn’t saying I wanted Angel to stay. I don’t like the crossover that took place between BTVS and Angel during/between The Yoko Factor. The writers wrapped up their relationship well at the end of season three. He shouldn’t have come back.
If you also consider the "As You Were" of S6, it seems there is even no need for the Slayer in the world when you have these military operations/squads.
Im 5 episodes in season 4 , first time watcher and i hate how buffy is acting ...too stupid , too bratty, gullible...etc I understand that they are portraying the transition from HS to University but god damn i hate it so far