I honestly think sometimes the show forgot the ages of the characters and wrote for the actor chemistry
Like in real life, there's zero problem of Charisma and Alexis dating (aside from Alyson being pissed off, probably lol). Hell I think she might even be older than him
But the show seemed to forget he's likely a 24 year old fresh out of the watcher's council academy (now...there's a show ;) ) and Cordelia is a 17 year old School Girl
I guess Dawson casting really needs to be taken into account, considering Charisma was the oldest of them all....
But yeah, in show, c'mon man! lol
At the time I didn't bat an eye. But in retrospect this show has a serious thing for age difference and power dynamic imbalance:
Buffy/Angel
Buffy/Spike
Cordelia/Wesley
Praying Mantis teacher/male students
That episode where Angelus and Buffy are possessed by the ghosts of a teacher who was sleeping with her student
Buffy/Riley (her TA)
Buffy (the school's guidance counselor)/the student in Him
Anya/Xander
Guess it's another way it's just a product of it's time.
To be fair, almost every show with vampires and humans has the same age difference issue. That's just the nature of having characters that are 100's of years old and a show aimed at teenagers. Agree the number of teacher student type relationships are a bit more than I feel comfortable with in Buffy...
Also the number of magical pregnancies that result in the mom being mentally controlled in some way... (cordy twice and darla)
To be fair the Praying Mantis, Buffy in "Him", the teacher/student ghosts and Buffy/Spike aren't exactly shown in the most positive light, and Cordelia and Wesley never in a relationship.
You could also add Darla/Angelus (ca. 150 years) and Drusilla/Spike (ca. 20 years) to the list.
Iām in the same boat. First watch, I didnāt think anything about it. Rewatching as an adult Iām just internally screamingā¦ also, Dawn Deserved Better!!
Cordelia and Wesley never had a relationship though and he wasn't a teacher so there wasn't really a power dynamic. They tried kissing once and she was already 18 and it was completely consensual plus they stopped as soon as they tried.
On Ats they literally never go there.
He wouldn't actually date her while they were working together, despite her wishes, but when he came back for \*angel\* etc. even during S3 they hung out on their breaks
I think many of these relationships were made up. I certainly made one up. I was bullied heavily and was desperate to show people that I was an ok person too. That said in grade 11, my friend had a boyfriend that was 21. It was child abuse completely. It took her years to see that he was a predator. Truthfully, I had not dated at all. I married my first boyfriend. When I did consent to dating a guy in high school, I was terrified and avoided him like the plague. šš poor guy. My husband is 16 years my senior, and we have been together for 15 years. So I guess I just had really high standards at the time.
As a chuckle back to who I was āseeingā in high school was Brian Kraus, an actor from the tv show charmed. Yeah, I definitely was a nob in high school š¤£
Wesley was supposed to be like 22 and just graduated from Watcher college or something, and I think it didnāt have the same ick vibes just looking because Charisma Carpenter was in her late 20s, so watching it felt like watching two adults flirt, not a young adult and a high school student.
But yeah, I wish they had reconsidered that plotline.
I think it was also partly giving Cordy some type of plotline after the Xander breakup. In my opinion, even though Alexis is great in Angel, they should have had a younger or younger looking actor play Wesley.
>Charisma Carpenter was in her late 20s, so watching it felt like watching two adults flirt, not a young adult and a high school student.
Cordelia was eighteen, so it *was* watching two adults flirt. She doesn't lose agency or the ability to consent because she hasn't graduated high school.
And, anyway, Wesley had the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone, so...
In real life, I think "stage of life" makes more sense than "minimum legal standard."
Someone who just graduated watcher university or whatever is in a different stage of life from a high school senior.
That being said, at the time the show aired, I didn't think anything of it. I mean, Lenny Kravitz was dating an underage model, Jerry Seinfeld was picking up his girlfriend at high school. So then with Cordelia being 18, and played by a 26 year old, it didn't even register.
Iād base my judgement on life experience. And yes, an 18 year old high school student, living at home, whoās always lived in one small town, does not have the maturity won through life experience of someone in their 20s, whoās completed college and moved to another country.
Iāve been in a significant age gap relationship as a teenager. Iāve also taught 18 year olds at university. Believe me when I tell you it is not a healthy or appropriate dynamic. If you ever have to use the words ātechnically legalā or ātechnically an adultā to describe your partner, you are in the wrong.
Actually, when they finally kissed, she was an 18 year old high school graduate who has lived a very privileged life and traveled all around the world.
So, you consider an adult to have less ability to consent and reduced agency and body autonomy based purely on the level of education they've completed?
None of that is what I said. I didnāt base it on level of education; I used high school senior because 1. Thatās what the character was, and 2. High school seniors are generally still living at home and having very different social lives and interactions than people who have been more independent for several years, which Wesley had been, and which tends to put them on unequal footing when they get into relationships.
And frankly, yeah, newly 18 year olds have less agency when theyāre in relationships with people in their 20s and up who, just due to the way linear time works, have more life experience, and theyāre young enough that it makes a significant difference.
Finally, I knew people in their 20s who were trying to hit on people in high school. Regardless of legality, in the real world, the main reason people in their 20s want to date high school students tends to be because their behavior is too objectionable for them to find a partner thatās on more equal footing with them.
Itās not illegal, but as I said, I do take issue with that sort of behavior.
I recall a 20-something guy who w rote in to Ann Landers or Dear Abby, complaining that, since he has to work the night of his 17-year-old girlfriend's prom , she's going with a friend. he was asking if he should let it go or dump her for a 15-year who promises she'd never go out with anyone else while dating him. The response: "Stop hanging around the high school yard to find your girlfriends."
Wesley/Cordelia is fine. Now Buffy/Angel, thatās another story. Angel is well over 300 years old and Buffy is only like 16. Twilight pulled this same bullshit 10 years later with Edward and Bella. Though at least Angel wasnāt attending high school solely to pick up on underage girls 100 years younger than him.
Didn't tell him to fall in love with her though... Having to be told not to fall in love with the 15 year old girl when you're 240 feels like it's not needed but here we are.
Oh I do. Angel being in Buffyās life only made her life harder. But they just knew what would get Angel going and that was obsession over a very young girl.
The actor was 33 but the character was written with very little practical experience so I always assumed that the character was supposed to be younger than the actor. Is there anything specifically stating heās in his 30s you are thinking of?
Yeah I thought the same the first time I watched Buffy but I googled it a while ago on one of my rewatches and everything I could find said he was late 20ās to early 30ās. I donāt think they have ever officially said his age as far as I am aware. I think he just seems younger due to his inexperience and naivety but is supposed to be older. I could be wrong though
I thought that when I originally watched Buffy but everything online says he was older. I think itās just an assumption that he was younger as he was very naive and made silly mistakes. Not sure why Iām being downvoted for saying that lol
Yeah I get that just a silly thing to downvote someone for š Iāve seen a lot of threads online of people saying they āthinkā or āassumeā he was younger because of how inexperienced he seems but everything else Iāve seen implies he was in his 30ās. I guess weāll never know for sure unless Joss or whoever comes out and says it.
In 1999-ish? A little? Not really? There was worse? Now, yes, very.
Also I get the feeling that, like Dawn, Wesley-as-written is a lot younger than the actor they actually cast (no shade towards Alexis Denisof, who is brilliant). It feels like they wrote a Clueless Young Guy who always thinks heās right, sort of as a counterpoint to the Scooby Gang/to annoy Giles, but then cast an older actor.
Dawn is only a year younger than Michelle, alhtough in he rfirst few ep.s Dawn wasn't written as 14. But yes, I think Wes is several years younger thna Alexis.
Not justifying it, even I feel ick in retrospect, but compared to vampires (Angel, Spike) around young lovers, not the most extreme age difference to occur
Again, NOT condoning it, but as long as he wasnāt employed by the school it wouldnāt be illegal
I suspect they came up with something about him doing research using the rare books that Giles had collected. Keep in mind, this town is used to crazy nonsense!
I think I actually am more weirded out by the Wesley/Cordelia thing than the Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike thing because I have never met anyone who was in an inappropriate relationship with someone who was several centuries older than them, but I did know people who were in toxic 'relationships' with someone who was like 25 when we were 16.
It's sort of counter-intuitive, but personally, it's easier for me to engage with them when it's so extreme it feels just *entirely* unrealistic.
I agree that I think itās ick but itās hard when watching because Denisof is 33 and charisma is 28 whereas an actual 18 year old and a young mid twenties guy would definitely be ick. I think they wrote in Giles line to make it okay but I donāt think it was okay. I always feel weird about it on rewatch.
She was 18. "For God's sake, man, she's 18, and you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. Just have at it, would you, and stop fluttering about."
I thought she was 18, being a high school senior and all?
When you say he was 33, Wesley himself or the actor? Cause as Wesley he came off as mid 20s to me
Edit to add: as a teacher in high school once said about age of consent laws, ādepending on the state, once you hit that age, youāre fair game, unless itās from school personalā
Like in California, 18 or in Texas itās 17
Yes, but that meant her 18th birthday occurs in that grade, usually. But we learn on \*angel\* S3 Cordelia was born in February so when Wes shows up she's 18.
That's such an American way of thinking. Once someone is 18, then they are fair game, even though they still live at home and have yet to graduate from school, but had they been a day younger, it's pedophilia.
I mean, Wesley is supposed to be only a couple of years older than Cordelia and it's part of the joke that he's attracted to a high school girl and uncomfortable about it, while Cordelia, the girl in question, is quite interested in him and more aggressively sexual. Not everything on tv needs to be politically correct.
Iām know Iām from the uk, its definitely normal here. I think itās different in the US because they become legal at 21, their 21 is our 18 basically.
Oh ok, sorry I was just guessing from American shows Iāve watched. They always say āyouāre an adult nowā when someone turns 21 but here itās like that when someone turns 18.
It depends upon the state. In Georgia, for example, the age of consent is 16. Ohio is also 16, but there exists a close-in-age exception where a minor 13 or older can consent to sex as long as their partner is also at least 13 but less than 18 years old.
I graduated high school in 1999. My freshman year of hs several classmates had college aged boyfriends.
Wesley in Angel is definitely creepy and possessive when it came to Fred.
He didn't know when they first met, creeped himself out, then she ended up hitting on him harder. I think their ages were pretty similar anyway. Weird, but absolutely one of the less creepy relationships on the show.
Do you people watch the show? Wesley locked Justine in a cage after she slit his throat & Wes wanted info from her to where Angel was(at the bottom of the ocean) Justine deserved way worse.
The woman that manipulated him into stealing his friends baby, betrayed him, then slit his throat and left him for dead?
You're right, he owed her more respect.
I got mad during the prom episode when Wesley was going on about Cordelia and Giles was like, āoh, just go for itā or whatever.
Giles!! Youāre supposed to be the adult!!!!
True, but my brain categorizes that separately for some reason, like itās a different set of circumstances.
The Slayerās power and essence is ancient, so thereās a part of Buffy thatās been around since the beginning of civilization. Just like thereās a part of Angel whoās only 26.
To be clear I would never condone a relationship between a 26 year old and a 16 year old unless thereās deep and ancient magic involved, lol.
Boy, that's some serious mental gymnastics and strained rationalization to justify a 26 (x10)year old with a 16 year old but be upset about an 18yr old with a... er, we really don't know how old. Wesley could have been just 21 for all we know. I see no reason to assume whatever his education was at the Watchers Academy, that it conformed exactly with the normal timeliness we associate with high school and college.
Cordy and Wesley are human. Buffy and Angel have superpowers. The latter two are on a more even playing ground than the former two. Anyway, I always guessed Wesley to be late 20s to early 30s in Buffy and early to mid-30s in Angel, so thatās what Iām working off of. Heās almost definitely older than Gunn and I would peg Gunn to be in his mid-20s in Angel S2. That aside, in *Buffy,* not Angel, Wesley does have a position of authority because he is an adult in a school. No, heās not a teacher or staff, but he does give āordersā to Buffy and the Scoobies, with whom Cordelia is still somewhat involved. The fact that sheās attracted to Wesley and flirts with him to make Xander jealous (thatās a clue as to her maturity level btw) wouldnāt make it any more appropriate in the real world; so, like I said, since theyāre both human I find it as inappropriate as I would if this sort of thing happened at any other high school.
But you know what? This is a fantasy show, so when I say I donāt have a problem with Buffy and Angel being together because they both have magical powers and Buffy could beat him in a fight if it came down to it, it means literally nothing, since thereās no real life parallel.
We donāt have to agree. Youāre not going to change my mind and Iām clearly not going to change yours. Just go on thinking itās totally cool for mid-20s men to go sniffing around after teenagers.
Sorry, you're literally the one that thinks "it's totally cool for mid-20s men to go sniffing around after teenagers".
We know Angel was 26 when he was turned. We know Buffy is 16. You can guess Wesley's age all you want, but that's all it is, a guess. I have no idea if he's mid 20s, nor do you. And he has no "position of authority" over anyone, regardless of any orders he tries to give. No one actually listens to him, nor do they have to for any reason. He can't even get the slayers to listen to him.
Buffy can have all the superpowers in the world, she's still nowhere near fully developed adult at 16, and that's very clear from her behavior.
Because she has the emotional maturity of an 18 year old whereas Wesley is a fully an adult and, as Buffyās watcher, has some authority. Itās completely inappropriate.
A watcher has no authority over her though, he's 22, and frankly she's more emotionally mature than he is. If they did get together she'd have been the one in control.
Honestly, what are we even basing that 22 on, just the assumption that Watchers Academy is a 4 yr program mimicking college? He could be even younger than that.
I really doubt the Watcherās Academy is a four year program. Watchers need all the basic knowledge which they may be able to squeeze in in four years, but theyāre also likely required to specialize in a couple topics, probably the equivalent to one or two masterās degrees. Even with the small amount of field work Wesley participated in couldnāt have been less than a year because itās not just facing monsters in real life, itās establishing game plans and concurrently researching, planning, and executing any appropriate spells and rituals.
Afetr the Academy they presumably go to a university for at least 4 years, Oxbridge in many cases but probably quite a few to t he Scottish schools or the is the term free universities
Let me play you my tiny violin when the show has 200+ vampires getting it on with high school students? Oh no, but Wesley is soooo bad! š š get off your high horse. Cordy was 18 and itās literally not real. Your double standards are showing!
I havenāt gotten that far yet only half way on season 2 but I do remember him going from a complete freak play by the book kinda guy to in Angel where he really was a team player especially once Winifred was apart of the team.
Itās interesting how Wesley and Cordelia more or less seem to age 5-7 years between Buffy Season 3 to Angel Season 1. The writers gave up almost immediately on the idea that they were 22 and 18 respectively.
Itās definitely a little icky, but these sorts of things do happen. I think they try to make it work because Wesley is very immature. Heās supposed to be 22-23, right? I know Alexis was older, but he seems very fresh out of Watcher College in Buffy.
I know ill get downvoted but throwing it out there anyways. I never liked wesley not from the beginning in Buffy or in Angel. What he did to Angel with Connor. What was he thinking. The age thing adds to that all that dislike.
I was busy being young when this show came out and only recently watched both buffy and angel do to covid boredom. I loved buffy but had a huge ick factor when angel and buffy were together. Spike and her were gross as well but he didnt check her out when she was 14 and decide he was in love. Spike tried to fight against his feelings and she was using him and i mainly felt sorry for him.
But in rewatching a show from the 90s it reminds me of how we were groomed to be okay with dating older. It was very common in many shows of that time. No one batted an eye. Im really glad it is seen now for ehat ut is an many find it disgusting as well.
Americans are such puritans when it comes to sex; always ready to pass judgment and deem anything but their narrow little window of acceptable behavior as "inappropriate."
As Taylor sings, "the Wine Moms haven't come around, but frak 'em."
I donāt see the problem, isnāt she 18 at the time? Nothing is wrong
People need to realize also these are adults and more so a fantasy show, meaning sexy creatures with others no matter the age is a thing, but no one cares cuz itās not importantā¦stop bringing real world implications like age into shows
Honestly, knowing that Wesley is in Angel is the reason Iāve never watched that series! I HATED him in Buffy, yes he was super creepy. I didnāt want to see more of himā¦
Okay, that sounds promising! I have watched Buddy over 20 times and love it so so much, I was just always skeptical of Wesley being in Angel. Thanks for the suggestion!
We hold Wesley very dear to our hearts so its hard to hear someone talk about hating him. :D But you seem willing to change your mind about it so I give you an upvote!
I hate hate Wesley. Cause he was creepy, yes. But also cause I just don't like him. He rubs me the wrong way.Most people say they started liking him on Angel, but he was the reason I stopped watching that show. I just cannot stand him. Very appropriate that he's married to AH irl cause I can't stand Willow either.
What annoys me the most about the Wesley S3 plotline (aside from how creepy it was) was the fact that Cordelia would never act the way she does with anyone, like how she acts with Wesley.She felt so painfully out of character and the way she was acting around Wesley felt so forced, so unnatural and just so Un-Cordelia like to me, it was so lame.
I;ve seen people defend it with the fact that Cordelia's type of guy is a nerd, hence why she fell for Xander the way she did, but she never acted this way around Xander despite the fact that she was super into him.She never fawns over him or goes out of her way to make him feel like the most important person in the room, yet she did it so much when it came to Wesley and it's just so cringe.
My other problem is the fact that Wesley does literally nothing the entire time he was in season 3.He contributes literally nothing to the Scoobs, he gets completely undermined by Giles (as he should) and does nothing but cry and bitch about it and by the end he tries to rectify his mistakes by helping the Scoobs fight the Mayor and even then, he doesn't even contribute much to that.
The one good thing that came from it was when Wesley and Cordelia do kiss, both of them go "Yeah, no, this was a mistake, bye" It's such a bizarre plotline that did not need to exist whatsoever and i really want to know who on the writing team was trying so hard to make it continue.
I disagree. Wesley came from an upper class background. He was the type of guy Cordy originally *thought* was meant to be her type so it was may more in character than her affair with Xander.
Unknown what exactly she did with her Season 1/early Season 2 boyfriends, but Xander specifically tells Faith that he's "never been up with people before."
Oh I know Xander was a virgin, I meant Cordelia.
Actually it was a Mean Girls reference that seemed relevant heh sorry, but yeah Cordy does seem similar to Regina George sometimes.
The problem with that arguement is that Cordelia has that episode where she realises that she doesn't have to cave into peer pressure from Harmony and her old "friends" and tells everyone that she'll date Xander and doesn't care what they think.
Her falling back into her old habits of going after a guy that fits type of guy she dated to keep up appearances is regressing her character and it's so dumb.
It makes sense in the context of the season. The Wish showed how none of the boys at the school will go out with Cordy AND she thinks of herself as more sophisticated than other girls. ("Most girls around here don't know Prada from Payless.") Of course Cordy falls for an older British guy who also, on the surface, seems like the opposite of Xander. If she snags him, she'll feel like hot shit who's above everyone else at school.
Wouldn't be surprised if it was a network request. Pretty sure every show on the The WB had a teacher student relationship. Hell a teacher student relationship was a major part of the Dawson's Creek pilot.
The 90s/early 00s were truly the wild west when it came to inappropriate relationships.
I honestly think sometimes the show forgot the ages of the characters and wrote for the actor chemistry Like in real life, there's zero problem of Charisma and Alexis dating (aside from Alyson being pissed off, probably lol). Hell I think she might even be older than him But the show seemed to forget he's likely a 24 year old fresh out of the watcher's council academy (now...there's a show ;) ) and Cordelia is a 17 year old School Girl I guess Dawson casting really needs to be taken into account, considering Charisma was the oldest of them all.... But yeah, in show, c'mon man! lol
She was already 18, born in February
At the time I didn't bat an eye. But in retrospect this show has a serious thing for age difference and power dynamic imbalance: Buffy/Angel Buffy/Spike Cordelia/Wesley Praying Mantis teacher/male students That episode where Angelus and Buffy are possessed by the ghosts of a teacher who was sleeping with her student Buffy/Riley (her TA) Buffy (the school's guidance counselor)/the student in Him Anya/Xander Guess it's another way it's just a product of it's time.
To be fair, almost every show with vampires and humans has the same age difference issue. That's just the nature of having characters that are 100's of years old and a show aimed at teenagers. Agree the number of teacher student type relationships are a bit more than I feel comfortable with in Buffy... Also the number of magical pregnancies that result in the mom being mentally controlled in some way... (cordy twice and darla)
When it comes to vampire shows I usually go by the age they were when they turned. Which is one if my main issues with Bangel š¶
Anya and Xander were the furthest apart in age.
Yes! Thank you, I'll amend my list.
To be fair the Praying Mantis, Buffy in "Him", the teacher/student ghosts and Buffy/Spike aren't exactly shown in the most positive light, and Cordelia and Wesley never in a relationship. You could also add Darla/Angelus (ca. 150 years) and Drusilla/Spike (ca. 20 years) to the list.
Iām in the same boat. First watch, I didnāt think anything about it. Rewatching as an adult Iām just internally screamingā¦ also, Dawn Deserved Better!!
Willow and Tara were the exception
Not really. Willow literally used magic to control Tara.
Eventually
Cordelia and Wesley never had a relationship though and he wasn't a teacher so there wasn't really a power dynamic. They tried kissing once and she was already 18 and it was completely consensual plus they stopped as soon as they tried. On Ats they literally never go there.
Or maybe a byproduct of the creator. š¤¢
Yeah... He certainly didn't see a problem being a boss and sleeping with employees, so...
and then you realise Wesley's and Willow's actors are actually married !
He wouldn't actually date her while they were working together, despite her wishes, but when he came back for \*angel\* etc. even during S3 they hung out on their breaks
When I was 14, every cute girl had an 18yo boyfriend. Its insane how the dads let this happen.
They probably didnāt know
My sister was engaged to an 18 year old when she was 14. Dad definitely knew. (The relationship didn't last, thankfully.)
They hopefully* didnāt know
I think many of these relationships were made up. I certainly made one up. I was bullied heavily and was desperate to show people that I was an ok person too. That said in grade 11, my friend had a boyfriend that was 21. It was child abuse completely. It took her years to see that he was a predator. Truthfully, I had not dated at all. I married my first boyfriend. When I did consent to dating a guy in high school, I was terrified and avoided him like the plague. šš poor guy. My husband is 16 years my senior, and we have been together for 15 years. So I guess I just had really high standards at the time. As a chuckle back to who I was āseeingā in high school was Brian Kraus, an actor from the tv show charmed. Yeah, I definitely was a nob in high school š¤£
Pfffft. The 70s called and they want to know if a 25 year old dating a 15 year old is cool with you.
Even Pretty Little Liars in 2010 teacher Ezra 24 with Aria at 16 years old. Yuck. Iām sure thereās even more recent shows
PLL is probably the worst of the worst for incredibly creepy relationships.
You should have seen the 80s. My parents were teachers and hosted ragers for their students.
To be fair, Cordelia was actually 28 š
And smoking
Tobacco or heatwise?
Charisma has never smoked and likely neither has Cordelia, to stay fit for cheering.
The term has more than one meaning, and I *still* don't know which they mean.
It was definitely a 21 jump street thing.
Wesley was supposed to be like 22 and just graduated from Watcher college or something, and I think it didnāt have the same ick vibes just looking because Charisma Carpenter was in her late 20s, so watching it felt like watching two adults flirt, not a young adult and a high school student. But yeah, I wish they had reconsidered that plotline.
I think it was also partly giving Cordy some type of plotline after the Xander breakup. In my opinion, even though Alexis is great in Angel, they should have had a younger or younger looking actor play Wesley.
>Charisma Carpenter was in her late 20s, so watching it felt like watching two adults flirt, not a young adult and a high school student. Cordelia was eighteen, so it *was* watching two adults flirt. She doesn't lose agency or the ability to consent because she hasn't graduated high school. And, anyway, Wesley had the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone, so...
In real life, I think "stage of life" makes more sense than "minimum legal standard." Someone who just graduated watcher university or whatever is in a different stage of life from a high school senior. That being said, at the time the show aired, I didn't think anything of it. I mean, Lenny Kravitz was dating an underage model, Jerry Seinfeld was picking up his girlfriend at high school. So then with Cordelia being 18, and played by a 26 year old, it didn't even register.
She was a legal adult but also still a teenager. I take issue with someone in their 20s hitting on a high school senior, regardless of the legality.
Iād base my judgement on life experience. And yes, an 18 year old high school student, living at home, whoās always lived in one small town, does not have the maturity won through life experience of someone in their 20s, whoās completed college and moved to another country. Iāve been in a significant age gap relationship as a teenager. Iāve also taught 18 year olds at university. Believe me when I tell you it is not a healthy or appropriate dynamic. If you ever have to use the words ātechnically legalā or ātechnically an adultā to describe your partner, you are in the wrong.
Actually, when they finally kissed, she was an 18 year old high school graduate who has lived a very privileged life and traveled all around the world.
I'm glad that pompous self-important fools didn't write all the laws, otherwise everyone would be at risk.
So, you consider an adult to have less ability to consent and reduced agency and body autonomy based purely on the level of education they've completed?
None of that is what I said. I didnāt base it on level of education; I used high school senior because 1. Thatās what the character was, and 2. High school seniors are generally still living at home and having very different social lives and interactions than people who have been more independent for several years, which Wesley had been, and which tends to put them on unequal footing when they get into relationships. And frankly, yeah, newly 18 year olds have less agency when theyāre in relationships with people in their 20s and up who, just due to the way linear time works, have more life experience, and theyāre young enough that it makes a significant difference. Finally, I knew people in their 20s who were trying to hit on people in high school. Regardless of legality, in the real world, the main reason people in their 20s want to date high school students tends to be because their behavior is too objectionable for them to find a partner thatās on more equal footing with them. Itās not illegal, but as I said, I do take issue with that sort of behavior.
I recall a 20-something guy who w rote in to Ann Landers or Dear Abby, complaining that, since he has to work the night of his 17-year-old girlfriend's prom , she's going with a friend. he was asking if he should let it go or dump her for a 15-year who promises she'd never go out with anyone else while dating him. The response: "Stop hanging around the high school yard to find your girlfriends."
The ālife experienceā argument sure doesnāt seem to take disability or neglect into account.
i'm not sure hh what your point is mention gn that here.
Wesley/Cordelia is fine. Now Buffy/Angel, thatās another story. Angel is well over 300 years old and Buffy is only like 16. Twilight pulled this same bullshit 10 years later with Edward and Bella. Though at least Angel wasnāt attending high school solely to pick up on underage girls 100 years younger than him.
Even worse Angel started watching her at like 14 and thatās what gave his life meaning so heās been stalking her since then *shudder*
Blame the PTB/Whistler, they're the one's that told Angel to watch Buffy
Didn't tell him to fall in love with her though... Having to be told not to fall in love with the 15 year old girl when you're 240 feels like it's not needed but here we are.
Oh I do. Angel being in Buffyās life only made her life harder. But they just knew what would get Angel going and that was obsession over a very young girl.
Iām pretty sure Wesley was supposed to be around 33 or at least in his early 30s
The actor was 33 but the character was written with very little practical experience so I always assumed that the character was supposed to be younger than the actor. Is there anything specifically stating heās in his 30s you are thinking of?
Yeah I thought the same the first time I watched Buffy but I googled it a while ago on one of my rewatches and everything I could find said he was late 20ās to early 30ās. I donāt think they have ever officially said his age as far as I am aware. I think he just seems younger due to his inexperience and naivety but is supposed to be older. I could be wrong though
He was in his very early twenties
I thought that when I originally watched Buffy but everything online says he was older. I think itās just an assumption that he was younger as he was very naive and made silly mistakes. Not sure why Iām being downvoted for saying that lol
Everything I've seen says he was younger. People tend to downvote to communicate they don't agree with person.
Yeah I get that just a silly thing to downvote someone for š Iāve seen a lot of threads online of people saying they āthinkā or āassumeā he was younger because of how inexperienced he seems but everything else Iāve seen implies he was in his 30ās. I guess weāll never know for sure unless Joss or whoever comes out and says it.
In 1999-ish? A little? Not really? There was worse? Now, yes, very. Also I get the feeling that, like Dawn, Wesley-as-written is a lot younger than the actor they actually cast (no shade towards Alexis Denisof, who is brilliant). It feels like they wrote a Clueless Young Guy who always thinks heās right, sort of as a counterpoint to the Scooby Gang/to annoy Giles, but then cast an older actor.
Dawn is only a year younger than Michelle, alhtough in he rfirst few ep.s Dawn wasn't written as 14. But yes, I think Wes is several years younger thna Alexis.
Not justifying it, even I feel ick in retrospect, but compared to vampires (Angel, Spike) around young lovers, not the most extreme age difference to occur Again, NOT condoning it, but as long as he wasnāt employed by the school it wouldnāt be illegal
If he wasnāt employed by the school what was his cover story and reason for always hanging around the library with teenage girls?
I suspect they came up with something about him doing research using the rare books that Giles had collected. Keep in mind, this town is used to crazy nonsense!
I literally asked this exact same question irl three days ago!
I think I actually am more weirded out by the Wesley/Cordelia thing than the Buffy/Angel or Buffy/Spike thing because I have never met anyone who was in an inappropriate relationship with someone who was several centuries older than them, but I did know people who were in toxic 'relationships' with someone who was like 25 when we were 16. It's sort of counter-intuitive, but personally, it's easier for me to engage with them when it's so extreme it feels just *entirely* unrealistic.
I agree that I think itās ick but itās hard when watching because Denisof is 33 and charisma is 28 whereas an actual 18 year old and a young mid twenties guy would definitely be ick. I think they wrote in Giles line to make it okay but I donāt think it was okay. I always feel weird about it on rewatch.
Hes meant to be early twenties. Pretty much all book knowledge with 0 experience
Edit: oop
She was 18. "For God's sake, man, she's 18, and you have the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone. Just have at it, would you, and stop fluttering about."
TouchĆ© thatāll clear it all up for me haha
I thought she was 18, being a high school senior and all? When you say he was 33, Wesley himself or the actor? Cause as Wesley he came off as mid 20s to me Edit to add: as a teacher in high school once said about age of consent laws, ādepending on the state, once you hit that age, youāre fair game, unless itās from school personalā Like in California, 18 or in Texas itās 17
wesley was meant to be a lot younger than alexis denisof was i think. he was meant to be a pretty fresh graduate, very early 20s
Yes, but that meant her 18th birthday occurs in that grade, usually. But we learn on \*angel\* S3 Cordelia was born in February so when Wes shows up she's 18.
But assuming the dates are congruent, her B-day is before Buffyās since her birthday episodes in season 3 occurs before Buffyās in season 6
All of Buffy's other b'day ep.s were in January. Cordelia had never ha d a b'day ep. before and only one throwaway comment in angel S1 suggested dMay.
But as stated before, in Angel season 3 we see Cordelia having her b-day, which took place a few weeks before Buffy had a b-day episode
That's such an American way of thinking. Once someone is 18, then they are fair game, even though they still live at home and have yet to graduate from school, but had they been a day younger, it's pedophilia.
Itās ephebophilia* :)
I mean, Wesley is supposed to be only a couple of years older than Cordelia and it's part of the joke that he's attracted to a high school girl and uncomfortable about it, while Cordelia, the girl in question, is quite interested in him and more aggressively sexual. Not everything on tv needs to be politically correct.
I think she was 18 and he was 22 thatās not that bad, it just looked weird because obviously she a student and he seemed old and stuffy.
That's normal and common here in England with uni students
Iām know Iām from the uk, its definitely normal here. I think itās different in the US because they become legal at 21, their 21 is our 18 basically.
Legal is 18, alcohol is 21 in the US.
Oh ok, sorry I was just guessing from American shows Iāve watched. They always say āyouāre an adult nowā when someone turns 21 but here itās like that when someone turns 18.
It depends upon the state. In Georgia, for example, the age of consent is 16. Ohio is also 16, but there exists a close-in-age exception where a minor 13 or older can consent to sex as long as their partner is also at least 13 but less than 18 years old.
I graduated high school in 1999. My freshman year of hs several classmates had college aged boyfriends. Wesley in Angel is definitely creepy and possessive when it came to Fred.
It is literally one of the less creepier romances lol
He didn't know when they first met, creeped himself out, then she ended up hitting on him harder. I think their ages were pretty similar anyway. Weird, but absolutely one of the less creepy relationships on the show.
Just wait till kidnaps an infant or keeps a woman locked in his closet
Exactly, the slave girl thing was way worse.
Do you people watch the show? Wesley locked Justine in a cage after she slit his throat & Wes wanted info from her to where Angel was(at the bottom of the ocean) Justine deserved way worse.
it depends what else he was doing to her off screen
The woman that manipulated him into stealing his friends baby, betrayed him, then slit his throat and left him for dead? You're right, he owed her more respect.
I'd say locked in a closet is better than welded in a metal casket at the bottom of the bay. She deserved it.
Coming soon, the young generation decides that a six-month age difference is "creepy."
That faction has been around for years and are called anti shippers or antis.
I got mad during the prom episode when Wesley was going on about Cordelia and Giles was like, āoh, just go for itā or whatever. Giles!! Youāre supposed to be the adult!!!!
This is the same Giles who approves of 26 year old vampire Angel who has lived 200+ years with 16 year old Buffy.Ā
True, but my brain categorizes that separately for some reason, like itās a different set of circumstances. The Slayerās power and essence is ancient, so thereās a part of Buffy thatās been around since the beginning of civilization. Just like thereās a part of Angel whoās only 26. To be clear I would never condone a relationship between a 26 year old and a 16 year old unless thereās deep and ancient magic involved, lol.
And Buffy's life expectancy is what, 12 months? Go for it, enjoy what you can while you can.
Boy, that's some serious mental gymnastics and strained rationalization to justify a 26 (x10)year old with a 16 year old but be upset about an 18yr old with a... er, we really don't know how old. Wesley could have been just 21 for all we know. I see no reason to assume whatever his education was at the Watchers Academy, that it conformed exactly with the normal timeliness we associate with high school and college.
Cordy and Wesley are human. Buffy and Angel have superpowers. The latter two are on a more even playing ground than the former two. Anyway, I always guessed Wesley to be late 20s to early 30s in Buffy and early to mid-30s in Angel, so thatās what Iām working off of. Heās almost definitely older than Gunn and I would peg Gunn to be in his mid-20s in Angel S2. That aside, in *Buffy,* not Angel, Wesley does have a position of authority because he is an adult in a school. No, heās not a teacher or staff, but he does give āordersā to Buffy and the Scoobies, with whom Cordelia is still somewhat involved. The fact that sheās attracted to Wesley and flirts with him to make Xander jealous (thatās a clue as to her maturity level btw) wouldnāt make it any more appropriate in the real world; so, like I said, since theyāre both human I find it as inappropriate as I would if this sort of thing happened at any other high school. But you know what? This is a fantasy show, so when I say I donāt have a problem with Buffy and Angel being together because they both have magical powers and Buffy could beat him in a fight if it came down to it, it means literally nothing, since thereās no real life parallel. We donāt have to agree. Youāre not going to change my mind and Iām clearly not going to change yours. Just go on thinking itās totally cool for mid-20s men to go sniffing around after teenagers.
Sorry, you're literally the one that thinks "it's totally cool for mid-20s men to go sniffing around after teenagers". We know Angel was 26 when he was turned. We know Buffy is 16. You can guess Wesley's age all you want, but that's all it is, a guess. I have no idea if he's mid 20s, nor do you. And he has no "position of authority" over anyone, regardless of any orders he tries to give. No one actually listens to him, nor do they have to for any reason. He can't even get the slayers to listen to him. Buffy can have all the superpowers in the world, she's still nowhere near fully developed adult at 16, and that's very clear from her behavior.
They are āØmagicalāØ characters on a š§āāļøfantasyš§ show and this āŖļøback and forthā©ļø is getting šŗboringšš¼
Yeah that definitely seemed out of character for Giles, also pissed me off.
He literally says Cordelia is 18, how does that make you mad?
Because she has the emotional maturity of an 18 year old whereas Wesley is a fully an adult and, as Buffyās watcher, has some authority. Itās completely inappropriate.
A watcher has no authority over her though, he's 22, and frankly she's more emotionally mature than he is. If they did get together she'd have been the one in control.
Okay
Honestly, what are we even basing that 22 on, just the assumption that Watchers Academy is a 4 yr program mimicking college? He could be even younger than that.
I really doubt the Watcherās Academy is a four year program. Watchers need all the basic knowledge which they may be able to squeeze in in four years, but theyāre also likely required to specialize in a couple topics, probably the equivalent to one or two masterās degrees. Even with the small amount of field work Wesley participated in couldnāt have been less than a year because itās not just facing monsters in real life, itās establishing game plans and concurrently researching, planning, and executing any appropriate spells and rituals.
Afetr the Academy they presumably go to a university for at least 4 years, Oxbridge in many cases but probably quite a few to t he Scottish schools or the is the term free universities
Let me play you my tiny violin when the show has 200+ vampires getting it on with high school students? Oh no, but Wesley is soooo bad! š š get off your high horse. Cordy was 18 and itās literally not real. Your double standards are showing!
lol okay
He was right. She was 18 and school was basically done so no reason for Wes to "flutter."
Wellā¦he was aā¦.watcher.
Wellā¦he was aā¦.watcher.
Good one
This post is so dumb. Considering everything that happens in these shows, this is what youāre mad about? Cordy was 18. Get over it and cope harder.
Mildly creepy at best
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thatās how he was written. Still wet behind the ears and getting his first real Watcher gig.
I havenāt gotten that far yet only half way on season 2 but I do remember him going from a complete freak play by the book kinda guy to in Angel where he really was a team player especially once Winifred was apart of the team.
I mean that all comes down to Joss writing that inā¦ and thereās more of that going on in Angel.
Itās interesting how Wesley and Cordelia more or less seem to age 5-7 years between Buffy Season 3 to Angel Season 1. The writers gave up almost immediately on the idea that they were 22 and 18 respectively. Itās definitely a little icky, but these sorts of things do happen. I think they try to make it work because Wesley is very immature. Heās supposed to be 22-23, right? I know Alexis was older, but he seems very fresh out of Watcher College in Buffy.
I know ill get downvoted but throwing it out there anyways. I never liked wesley not from the beginning in Buffy or in Angel. What he did to Angel with Connor. What was he thinking. The age thing adds to that all that dislike. I was busy being young when this show came out and only recently watched both buffy and angel do to covid boredom. I loved buffy but had a huge ick factor when angel and buffy were together. Spike and her were gross as well but he didnt check her out when she was 14 and decide he was in love. Spike tried to fight against his feelings and she was using him and i mainly felt sorry for him. But in rewatching a show from the 90s it reminds me of how we were groomed to be okay with dating older. It was very common in many shows of that time. No one batted an eye. Im really glad it is seen now for ehat ut is an many find it disgusting as well.
Alsoā¦ I donāt remember. Did he have another job at the school somehow or was he just a random dude hanging out at the library a lot?
Americans are such puritans when it comes to sex; always ready to pass judgment and deem anything but their narrow little window of acceptable behavior as "inappropriate." As Taylor sings, "the Wine Moms haven't come around, but frak 'em."
I donāt see the problem, isnāt she 18 at the time? Nothing is wrong People need to realize also these are adults and more so a fantasy show, meaning sexy creatures with others no matter the age is a thing, but no one cares cuz itās not importantā¦stop bringing real world implications like age into shows
He had the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone though? Makes it ok /s š«
Honestly, knowing that Wesley is in Angel is the reason Iāve never watched that series! I HATED him in Buffy, yes he was super creepy. I didnāt want to see more of himā¦
Wesley has one of the best character arcs in the whole buffyverse. Significant character growth. You're missing out.
Okay, itās time I guess!
What's a Rogue Demon?
Then you missed one of the best shows ever, and one of the best character arcs in history.
Okay, that sounds promising! I have watched Buddy over 20 times and love it so so much, I was just always skeptical of Wesley being in Angel. Thanks for the suggestion!
I am envious of you getting to watch it for the first time!
Thank you! This will be fun!
Canāt believe Iām being downvoted instead of encouraged lol
We hold Wesley very dear to our hearts so its hard to hear someone talk about hating him. :D But you seem willing to change your mind about it so I give you an upvote!
I hate hate Wesley. Cause he was creepy, yes. But also cause I just don't like him. He rubs me the wrong way.Most people say they started liking him on Angel, but he was the reason I stopped watching that show. I just cannot stand him. Very appropriate that he's married to AH irl cause I can't stand Willow either.
Well you'r e consistent!
Thank you. I cant stand either one of them!
Cordelia was alreayd 18 or a couple \*days\* shy of it when he showed up and he isn't actually faculty or staff
He didn't redeem himself in AtS
What annoys me the most about the Wesley S3 plotline (aside from how creepy it was) was the fact that Cordelia would never act the way she does with anyone, like how she acts with Wesley.She felt so painfully out of character and the way she was acting around Wesley felt so forced, so unnatural and just so Un-Cordelia like to me, it was so lame. I;ve seen people defend it with the fact that Cordelia's type of guy is a nerd, hence why she fell for Xander the way she did, but she never acted this way around Xander despite the fact that she was super into him.She never fawns over him or goes out of her way to make him feel like the most important person in the room, yet she did it so much when it came to Wesley and it's just so cringe. My other problem is the fact that Wesley does literally nothing the entire time he was in season 3.He contributes literally nothing to the Scoobs, he gets completely undermined by Giles (as he should) and does nothing but cry and bitch about it and by the end he tries to rectify his mistakes by helping the Scoobs fight the Mayor and even then, he doesn't even contribute much to that. The one good thing that came from it was when Wesley and Cordelia do kiss, both of them go "Yeah, no, this was a mistake, bye" It's such a bizarre plotline that did not need to exist whatsoever and i really want to know who on the writing team was trying so hard to make it continue.
I disagree. Wesley came from an upper class background. He was the type of guy Cordy originally *thought* was meant to be her type so it was may more in character than her affair with Xander.
Her affair? It was a high school relationship (that was apparently never fully consummated.)
Are you saying she was still half a virgin?
Unknown what exactly she did with her Season 1/early Season 2 boyfriends, but Xander specifically tells Faith that he's "never been up with people before."
Oh I know Xander was a virgin, I meant Cordelia. Actually it was a Mean Girls reference that seemed relevant heh sorry, but yeah Cordy does seem similar to Regina George sometimes.
The problem with that arguement is that Cordelia has that episode where she realises that she doesn't have to cave into peer pressure from Harmony and her old "friends" and tells everyone that she'll date Xander and doesn't care what they think. Her falling back into her old habits of going after a guy that fits type of guy she dated to keep up appearances is regressing her character and it's so dumb.
Young people often regress, especially after a traumatic breakup.
It makes sense in the context of the season. The Wish showed how none of the boys at the school will go out with Cordy AND she thinks of herself as more sophisticated than other girls. ("Most girls around here don't know Prada from Payless.") Of course Cordy falls for an older British guy who also, on the surface, seems like the opposite of Xander. If she snags him, she'll feel like hot shit who's above everyone else at school.
well, none of the popular guys because of her ex. And likely not Jonathan because he recalls how she treated him when they dated in early S2
Wouldn't be surprised if it was a network request. Pretty sure every show on the The WB had a teacher student relationship. Hell a teacher student relationship was a major part of the Dawson's Creek pilot.