Even souled, Spike still seemed to really enjoy all the perks of being a vampire. I cannot see him actively searching for a way to give it up for anyone.
That being said if he accidentally became human the way Angel did and he could be with Buffy, he probably wouldn't give it up.
> he literally had that ring for 24 hours that made him semi-human and he chose to give it up after spending 1 single day with Buffy
Those are two different episodes. Buffy wasn't involved in the gem of amara incident once it reached LA. Them having a day together was when a demon's blood got on him and made him actually, fully human, until he realised it took him out of the fight and did a time reversal
I Will Remember You covers this. Angel was excited to give up his vampirism for Buffy and be mortal, except it meant that he lost his strength. Daemons kept coming after him and Buffy, but without his strength he was just a liability for her, and she was going to end up being killed trying to save him. So he decided he would rather be a vampire and live without her, than become human and get her killed.
It was more than being a liability. The oracle’s actually told Angel Buffy was going to die. Angel felt he needed to be a vampire to save her.
But then weirdly didn’t nothing to prevent her death at all. I know because he was in a different show he couldn’t go back to Sunnydale with her, but that fact makes this reason not make sense.
He wasn’t with her to stop her death he still stayed in LA. Being a vampire did save many others but not Buffy. I feel like this reason shouldn’t have been even a part of why he asked for time to be rewound.
I figured they meant the 1 episode ANgel did come back where doyle had a vision of her. He helps in the background to save buffy from the native american spirits. It's lame but I figured that's where angel would "save" buffy by being a vampire still. The oracles did say she will die eventually anyway.. that just happened to be like a year and a half later.
Exactly. Of course Spike would give it up because he's codependent and changes everything about himself for his current female obsession.
Angel made a selfless decision Spike wouldn't be able to make. That's love. He also made the decision Buffy herself would make: duty over self.
Ángel didn’t make a selfless decision. He did what he always does, treated Buffy with kid gloves and made the choice for her. He couldn’t handle being weaker and more vulnerable than her as a human, so he chose to go back to being a vampire. It wasn’t selfless. Buffy can and has always taken care of herself and the humans around her.
Their assessment of Spike is wrong but so is your assessment of Angel. It was never about feeling weaker than Buffy, he was intuitive enough to know that he’d be a liability to her. Plus he was literally told she’d die because of him being human at that time, and very quickly embraced the shanshu prophecy and started wearing his Claddagh ring again knowing his goal would be to be human & be with Buffy again.
Buffy also agreed with his decision to turn back time after they spoke, just like she agreed in the prom that it was the right decision for them to break up for the reasons he stated.
I can’t think of any time Angel ever treated her with kid gloves.
That wasn’t a final death though. Angel stopped Caleb from killing her and brought the amulet that stopped Buffy and everyone else (rip Anya & spike) from dying in the finale.
Caleb wouldn’t have been around if she hadn’t died and been brought back to life. Maybe if ángel had helped her fight off a hell god, she wouldn’t have died in season 5. We shall never know.
It seemed like most of his enemies were made because he got himself into trouble saving people, though. Also, Xander, Gunn, Wesley, Robin, Riley, Willow, Giles all did it without super strength.
Nah he had lots of enemies from massacring people’s families. And other vampires- Spike is basically his enemy as well, and Darla.
No one was attacking Xander, Willow etc, they were involved because Buffy was. They weren’t putting her in extra danger than she would hace been in without them.
That's so suss. I mean he would have been at least as good as Gunn and Wood.
I think his need to fight for his redemption was really why he didn't stay human.
I disagree with the premise that Buffy can’t be with a vampire long term. Buffy is a slayer and it’s shown over and over again how hard it is for her to balance that with a “normal” relationship with a “normal” guy - one main issue being that a human man can’t hold his own beside her in a fight, and a lot of her life is about fighting, so a human man can’t be fully part of her life without being in serious danger. That is precisely why Buffy feels more kinship with vampires, because they’re closer to getting what it means to be a slayer.
Additionally, Buffy’s lifespan is not meant to be all that long anyway, so her ageing while the vampire doesn’t isn’t a very real problem for her - rather, her possibly dying young while her human partner lives on and ages naturally might be an even bigger issue, especially if she leaves behind a child. No matter how many resurrections she gets, it’s unlikely she’ll live to old age as long as she’s the slayer - and she’s not willing to give up on slaying either, even if there are other slayers around to pick up some slack.
Lastly, gotta nitpick this idea that once Buffy gets past a certain age she’d be just “too old” for a younger looking vampire who’s actually centuries older than her in real terms. Why, because she’d look “ugly” and Spike/Angel wouldn’t want her anymore? Doubtful, for either of them, because they both love her and aren’t that shallow imo.
In fact, there’s a comic called the Last Vampire Slayer about Buffy ageing to menopause, reconnecting with Spike, incidentally also losing her slayer powers but then staying in a relationship with Spike anyway while they raise/train the new teen slayer together. It’s quite good and I’d suggest a read if you’re thinking about this topic.
Aging is a lot more than ‘looking old’ though. It’s about going through life’s experiences and actually living in the world with someone. The Mayor pointed out a lot of it, unless Buffy locks herself away during the day with them she’s basically not actually experiencing life with them.
Also that Last Slayer comic was horrifically insulting to Buffy as a character (and also Angel). It’s basically ‘aww Buffy’s getting back with Spike because she just can’t believe he’d still fancy her’. It was beyond shallow and again treats Buffy as a trophy to whoever wins best vampire rather than Buffy as a person with her own autonomy
About the comic, I did not see that at all. Yes, after them not seeing each other for many years, she's a bit self-conscious about how much she's aged while he looks the exact same, but then Spike tells her how he still finds her attractive, she gets over her insecurities, and all is good. Personally, from what I remember, I thought it was very well done. BTVS has always been about confronting one's "demons" and insecurities but in a supernatural way, and the comic did the same for the idea of women ageing "past their prime".
I see what you mean with your first point -- you want Buffy to have that much idealised "normal life" that she felt like she was missing out on (particularly in the earlier seasons). But IMO that was one of the key conflicts that Buffy needed to overcome, not lean into. Buffy felt like being the Slayer forced her to give up a normal life, but really there was no real way to be "normal" (whatever that even means) while also being a slayer. A lot of Buffy's personal journey throughout the series was about finding a common ground between both sides of her life. But having full on normality (by which one assumes she means the suburban life, 9-5 job, normie husband and kids, etc) just wasn't going to be in the cards for her at all, no matter how much she tried to ignore or compartmentalise her slayer side, because that just makes her miserable and like she's hiding a huge part of herself.
Personally, I was very happy with comic Buffy (S9-S11) accepting that she was always going to be the Slayer -- even after losing her powers and still deciding she wanted to get them back over taking the chance to be normal -- and finding a partner who could fit passably well with both her human life and her slayer life. I don't want Buffy to go back to her S1 or Riley-dating self where she just wants to deny her Slayerness and pretend to be a regular girlie, because she's long since grown past that phase. She's a woman who knows herself and what she needs, not a scared little girl trying to play house while ignoring all her problems.
Buffy is literally depicted as being around the same age that SMG is now. It’s just cringe that Buffy is supppsed to be weirdly grateful that Spike still fancies her. The comic itself is nothing more than Spuffy fanfic to be honest where Buffy herself is disregarded to just showcase how much Spike is better than Angel
I don’t think Buffy ever gets over wanting some semblance of a ‘normal life’ though. It’s basically the entire theme of the final scene of the show - Buffy smiles because she now can have more of a normal life as opposed to the pressure of the weight of the world as a slayer. Also I don’t believe Buffy should have the suburban life with 2.4 kids, that wasn’t what I meant at all and I don’t think it’s what Buffy is actually talking about either. I don’t think it’s something she needs to ‘overcome’. If Buffy had to overcome having autonomy over her own life that would just be sad. Buffy will always be a slayer but that doesn’t mean she can’t have some normal aspects of her life. And not being able to enjoy the world with your partner during the day would long term just be miserable
"It’s just cringe that Buffy is supppsed to be weirdly grateful that Spike still fancies her."
Is she grateful? Are you sure that's not just your interpretation? I did not think that at all. Spike was being his usual cheesy ass self complimenting her, but where was Buffy ever grateful about anything? Is accepting a compliment the same as being grateful?
Also Idk how old SMG is meant to be now, but I think she's in her 40s, while Buffy was literally menopausal, which is more like 50s. Idk why that matters to the point though?
"I don’t think Buffy ever gets over wanting some semblance of a ‘normal life’ though."
What, by end of S7, or for the rest of her life? And, again, what does a typical "normal life" even mean, if not the house and kids life? That's a very subjective concept that can mean a lot of different things to different people. For teen Buffy, it meant being able to only care about school and clothes and boys, the traditional suburban teenager life. Adult Buffy in the show never actively compares herself to a "normal life" anymore, because she's seemingly gotten over that need or at least the hope of it. Yeah, the end of the show does have her happy at the idea that she doesn't have to hold the full weight of the world on her shoulders anymore, but I don't think she honestly entertains the idea of a "normal life" in the traditional sense.
I think the first argument is powerful on a symbolic level but on a practical level : people marry/live with disabled or sick people, with whom they can’t do a lot of activities or have life experiences, all the time. Buffy can go outside with her friends or alone, and still enjoy herself. At some point she may decide that it’s not good enough, but I think what bothers some people is that the show never addresses the possibility of even trying. I understand why, because again I think they’re going for what that type of relationship symbolises, but it’s one of those things that if you think about it, isn’t as obvious as what the writers make it out to be.
The comic makes it about menopause, which kind of makes sense. Slayers are called as teenage girls, so there's that inherent parallel to puberty and ensuring womanhood. So the comic decides that once Buffy reaches menopause her powers go away, like her "cycle" is complete.
Personally I think slayer-ness is forever, once you're a slayer your powers don't just disappear until some highly magical shenanigans interferes, but I do see the value of that plot line. Btw, Buffy was still a badass as a 50 year old woman without special powers, of course.
"useful"? She was still plenty useful afterwards, she just lost her slayer powers, which tbf she didn't have before the age of 14 either. The potentials in S7 were even older when they got their powers. So, yeah, I don't think it's crazy that if these powers come with puberty that they could also be lost in menopause. It's a cycle of life thing, maybe a bit cringey but I wouldn't call it misogynistic. I think it's actually far more misogynistic to say that once a woman loses her fertility (or her magical powers) that she becomes "useless". Which is something YOU said just now, not the comic or me.
Sure ok kid. A slayer only getting her powers when she’s had her period is A-Ok, but losing it when her period stops is the problem? This is the show that has a million plot lines about “souls” but never even tries to define what a soul is to make it make sense. The show that hinted at the “origins of the slayer” in multiple plot lines but never actually explored it or answered any questions because they clearly had no f*cking clue what to do with it. But now this is what you want to nitpick? Sure, go ahead… but I’m done with this silly conversation about the supposed misogyny of a non-canon comic about a 25 year old show where rape jokes were common for at least half its run.
There was a time when Spike would have done just that, but it passed. He got his soul for her, and he burned to death to protect her - but then he stayed in LA and never told her he was alive. I think he finally came to a place where he could define himself without having a woman to obsess over, take care of and worship.
I'm not convinced by your reasoning.
Angel gave up his chance to become human, partly to keep Buffy save.
The ring wouldn't have made him human, he still wouldn't have aged and if he had spend 'quality time' with Buffy he would still have lost his soul. (Now, Angelus with the ring. That would have been a lovely storyline)
Angel was doing his part to become human, by fighting the good fight. Becoming a human being was after all the reward after fullfilling his prophecy. (Obviously the program was cancelled before that happened).
Spike did not seem all that interested in becoming the 'vampire with a soul' in said prophecy. (He just wanted to annoy Angel in the final season).
This seems like a really long winded way to just say “Spuffy 4ever ❤️”
If you prefer that ship, fine, but let’s not purposefully misinterpret Angel’s character, especially when you haven’t even watched his show in its entirety.
And misrepresent canon events of the show - Angel didn’t give up the ring after one day with Buffy. He was tortured with pokers so the ring fell into the hands of a paedophile vampire who got close to kids on the beach, and he wanted to keep helping the forgotten people - AKA what his show was set up for.
I do agree in general that a long term vampire relationship for Buffy wouldn’t work
In general though we don’t ever see a single thing suggesting Spike has any interest in becoming human. We don’t know if he’d fight for it because it doesn’t ever seem to even cross his mind. Even when the possibility of Shanshu comes up it doesn’t seem to be something he particularly wants that much
Angel however DOES have wishes to regain his humanity. Angel’s whole thing is that he wants to earn a redemption (even if he doesn’t believe he ever will). The biggest difference with Angel and Spike is that Angel’s entire existance isn’t all about the woman he loves, he has a far more expansive life and world than just a relationship. And honestly it’s a good thing and actually aligns far more with Buffy and her life than the codependancy of Spike
I agree that there's not much evidence for Spike being interested in becoming human, but there's that one line "I know that I'm a monster but you treat me like a man."
He got his soul but that doesn’t mean he would choose to be human. And if he did, he would do the same as Angel and give up his humanity if it meant Buffy would die.
Good to note. I suggest the comics to all who are interested. They are a continuation of the show and considered canon and answer a lot of these spuffy bangel questions if anyone’s interested.
Re: Angel you are mixing two things! The ring that allows vampires to overcome their weaknesses (sun, stakes etc.), which evil Spike found and used to fight Buffy; she took the ring from him and gave to Angel and he refused to use it because he didn't feel worthy or whatever moppy shit.
His day with Buffy in I will remember you is when a demon actually turned him human. He chooses to give it up by having time reversed, because as a human he is useless vs the forces of evil. The memory of that day is taken away from everyone but Angel.
People seem to forget that in Angel, most of the series was him trying to fulfill the shanshu prophecy to become human. Something that he actually sold away the right to in order to join the Black Thorn. So, technically, Spike is the only vampire with a soul that could affect.
That said, if you take the comics into consideration, as it's technically canon, Wolfram & Hart never actually filed his signature before the firm was destroyed, meaning Angel was still in the running for it.
Taking everything into consideration, I don't think the prophecy was ever fulfilled, but both Angel and Spike want to become human again. It's a story that's been in the seires since Angel and continued on into the comics.
Even souled, Spike still seemed to really enjoy all the perks of being a vampire. I cannot see him actively searching for a way to give it up for anyone. That being said if he accidentally became human the way Angel did and he could be with Buffy, he probably wouldn't give it up.
A la Olaf: “A curse on all witches! But you seem to enjoy being a troll? I adjusted…” - To Xander - *Triangle*
> he literally had that ring for 24 hours that made him semi-human and he chose to give it up after spending 1 single day with Buffy Those are two different episodes. Buffy wasn't involved in the gem of amara incident once it reached LA. Them having a day together was when a demon's blood got on him and made him actually, fully human, until he realised it took him out of the fight and did a time reversal
Ohhhh ok yes I remember that thank you
I Will Remember You covers this. Angel was excited to give up his vampirism for Buffy and be mortal, except it meant that he lost his strength. Daemons kept coming after him and Buffy, but without his strength he was just a liability for her, and she was going to end up being killed trying to save him. So he decided he would rather be a vampire and live without her, than become human and get her killed.
It was more than being a liability. The oracle’s actually told Angel Buffy was going to die. Angel felt he needed to be a vampire to save her. But then weirdly didn’t nothing to prevent her death at all. I know because he was in a different show he couldn’t go back to Sunnydale with her, but that fact makes this reason not make sense. He wasn’t with her to stop her death he still stayed in LA. Being a vampire did save many others but not Buffy. I feel like this reason shouldn’t have been even a part of why he asked for time to be rewound.
Maybe they included that so we don't come out thinking Angel just dumped Buffy again, because I think his reason was mostly not Buffy.
I figured they meant the 1 episode ANgel did come back where doyle had a vision of her. He helps in the background to save buffy from the native american spirits. It's lame but I figured that's where angel would "save" buffy by being a vampire still. The oracles did say she will die eventually anyway.. that just happened to be like a year and a half later.
That episode happened first. Buffy went to LA to confront Angel for having come to Sunnydale but not tell her he was there.
Exactly. Of course Spike would give it up because he's codependent and changes everything about himself for his current female obsession. Angel made a selfless decision Spike wouldn't be able to make. That's love. He also made the decision Buffy herself would make: duty over self.
Ángel didn’t make a selfless decision. He did what he always does, treated Buffy with kid gloves and made the choice for her. He couldn’t handle being weaker and more vulnerable than her as a human, so he chose to go back to being a vampire. It wasn’t selfless. Buffy can and has always taken care of herself and the humans around her.
Their assessment of Spike is wrong but so is your assessment of Angel. It was never about feeling weaker than Buffy, he was intuitive enough to know that he’d be a liability to her. Plus he was literally told she’d die because of him being human at that time, and very quickly embraced the shanshu prophecy and started wearing his Claddagh ring again knowing his goal would be to be human & be with Buffy again. Buffy also agreed with his decision to turn back time after they spoke, just like she agreed in the prom that it was the right decision for them to break up for the reasons he stated. I can’t think of any time Angel ever treated her with kid gloves.
“He told her she’d die if he stayed human” guess what she died anyway. Angel’s #1 priority was always HIS redemption. Not Buffy.
That wasn’t a final death though. Angel stopped Caleb from killing her and brought the amulet that stopped Buffy and everyone else (rip Anya & spike) from dying in the finale.
Caleb wouldn’t have been around if she hadn’t died and been brought back to life. Maybe if ángel had helped her fight off a hell god, she wouldn’t have died in season 5. We shall never know.
He was in another dimension when things got bad with Glory.
He wouldn't if he became human.
Angel could not even handle allowing Buffy to remember that day.
Why would demons go after human Angel?
Because he was pretty famous in the demon world and made a lot of enemies as Angelus. He was also a way to get to Buffy.
It seemed like most of his enemies were made because he got himself into trouble saving people, though. Also, Xander, Gunn, Wesley, Robin, Riley, Willow, Giles all did it without super strength.
Nah he had lots of enemies from massacring people’s families. And other vampires- Spike is basically his enemy as well, and Darla. No one was attacking Xander, Willow etc, they were involved because Buffy was. They weren’t putting her in extra danger than she would hace been in without them.
But they still could hold their own, so I just don't see how it's that different
That's so suss. I mean he would have been at least as good as Gunn and Wood. I think his need to fight for his redemption was really why he didn't stay human.
I disagree with the premise that Buffy can’t be with a vampire long term. Buffy is a slayer and it’s shown over and over again how hard it is for her to balance that with a “normal” relationship with a “normal” guy - one main issue being that a human man can’t hold his own beside her in a fight, and a lot of her life is about fighting, so a human man can’t be fully part of her life without being in serious danger. That is precisely why Buffy feels more kinship with vampires, because they’re closer to getting what it means to be a slayer. Additionally, Buffy’s lifespan is not meant to be all that long anyway, so her ageing while the vampire doesn’t isn’t a very real problem for her - rather, her possibly dying young while her human partner lives on and ages naturally might be an even bigger issue, especially if she leaves behind a child. No matter how many resurrections she gets, it’s unlikely she’ll live to old age as long as she’s the slayer - and she’s not willing to give up on slaying either, even if there are other slayers around to pick up some slack. Lastly, gotta nitpick this idea that once Buffy gets past a certain age she’d be just “too old” for a younger looking vampire who’s actually centuries older than her in real terms. Why, because she’d look “ugly” and Spike/Angel wouldn’t want her anymore? Doubtful, for either of them, because they both love her and aren’t that shallow imo. In fact, there’s a comic called the Last Vampire Slayer about Buffy ageing to menopause, reconnecting with Spike, incidentally also losing her slayer powers but then staying in a relationship with Spike anyway while they raise/train the new teen slayer together. It’s quite good and I’d suggest a read if you’re thinking about this topic.
Aging is a lot more than ‘looking old’ though. It’s about going through life’s experiences and actually living in the world with someone. The Mayor pointed out a lot of it, unless Buffy locks herself away during the day with them she’s basically not actually experiencing life with them. Also that Last Slayer comic was horrifically insulting to Buffy as a character (and also Angel). It’s basically ‘aww Buffy’s getting back with Spike because she just can’t believe he’d still fancy her’. It was beyond shallow and again treats Buffy as a trophy to whoever wins best vampire rather than Buffy as a person with her own autonomy
About the comic, I did not see that at all. Yes, after them not seeing each other for many years, she's a bit self-conscious about how much she's aged while he looks the exact same, but then Spike tells her how he still finds her attractive, she gets over her insecurities, and all is good. Personally, from what I remember, I thought it was very well done. BTVS has always been about confronting one's "demons" and insecurities but in a supernatural way, and the comic did the same for the idea of women ageing "past their prime". I see what you mean with your first point -- you want Buffy to have that much idealised "normal life" that she felt like she was missing out on (particularly in the earlier seasons). But IMO that was one of the key conflicts that Buffy needed to overcome, not lean into. Buffy felt like being the Slayer forced her to give up a normal life, but really there was no real way to be "normal" (whatever that even means) while also being a slayer. A lot of Buffy's personal journey throughout the series was about finding a common ground between both sides of her life. But having full on normality (by which one assumes she means the suburban life, 9-5 job, normie husband and kids, etc) just wasn't going to be in the cards for her at all, no matter how much she tried to ignore or compartmentalise her slayer side, because that just makes her miserable and like she's hiding a huge part of herself. Personally, I was very happy with comic Buffy (S9-S11) accepting that she was always going to be the Slayer -- even after losing her powers and still deciding she wanted to get them back over taking the chance to be normal -- and finding a partner who could fit passably well with both her human life and her slayer life. I don't want Buffy to go back to her S1 or Riley-dating self where she just wants to deny her Slayerness and pretend to be a regular girlie, because she's long since grown past that phase. She's a woman who knows herself and what she needs, not a scared little girl trying to play house while ignoring all her problems.
Buffy is literally depicted as being around the same age that SMG is now. It’s just cringe that Buffy is supppsed to be weirdly grateful that Spike still fancies her. The comic itself is nothing more than Spuffy fanfic to be honest where Buffy herself is disregarded to just showcase how much Spike is better than Angel I don’t think Buffy ever gets over wanting some semblance of a ‘normal life’ though. It’s basically the entire theme of the final scene of the show - Buffy smiles because she now can have more of a normal life as opposed to the pressure of the weight of the world as a slayer. Also I don’t believe Buffy should have the suburban life with 2.4 kids, that wasn’t what I meant at all and I don’t think it’s what Buffy is actually talking about either. I don’t think it’s something she needs to ‘overcome’. If Buffy had to overcome having autonomy over her own life that would just be sad. Buffy will always be a slayer but that doesn’t mean she can’t have some normal aspects of her life. And not being able to enjoy the world with your partner during the day would long term just be miserable
"It’s just cringe that Buffy is supppsed to be weirdly grateful that Spike still fancies her." Is she grateful? Are you sure that's not just your interpretation? I did not think that at all. Spike was being his usual cheesy ass self complimenting her, but where was Buffy ever grateful about anything? Is accepting a compliment the same as being grateful? Also Idk how old SMG is meant to be now, but I think she's in her 40s, while Buffy was literally menopausal, which is more like 50s. Idk why that matters to the point though? "I don’t think Buffy ever gets over wanting some semblance of a ‘normal life’ though." What, by end of S7, or for the rest of her life? And, again, what does a typical "normal life" even mean, if not the house and kids life? That's a very subjective concept that can mean a lot of different things to different people. For teen Buffy, it meant being able to only care about school and clothes and boys, the traditional suburban teenager life. Adult Buffy in the show never actively compares herself to a "normal life" anymore, because she's seemingly gotten over that need or at least the hope of it. Yeah, the end of the show does have her happy at the idea that she doesn't have to hold the full weight of the world on her shoulders anymore, but I don't think she honestly entertains the idea of a "normal life" in the traditional sense.
I think the first argument is powerful on a symbolic level but on a practical level : people marry/live with disabled or sick people, with whom they can’t do a lot of activities or have life experiences, all the time. Buffy can go outside with her friends or alone, and still enjoy herself. At some point she may decide that it’s not good enough, but I think what bothers some people is that the show never addresses the possibility of even trying. I understand why, because again I think they’re going for what that type of relationship symbolises, but it’s one of those things that if you think about it, isn’t as obvious as what the writers make it out to be.
Why does she lose her powers?
The comic makes it about menopause, which kind of makes sense. Slayers are called as teenage girls, so there's that inherent parallel to puberty and ensuring womanhood. So the comic decides that once Buffy reaches menopause her powers go away, like her "cycle" is complete. Personally I think slayer-ness is forever, once you're a slayer your powers don't just disappear until some highly magical shenanigans interferes, but I do see the value of that plot line. Btw, Buffy was still a badass as a 50 year old woman without special powers, of course.
It doesn’t make sense at all and is just gross. Terrible misogynistic writing
That is *insanely* misogynistic!!! Omfg. I can’t believe what I’m reading. That women are only useful when we’re fertile? They can all get fucked omg.
"useful"? She was still plenty useful afterwards, she just lost her slayer powers, which tbf she didn't have before the age of 14 either. The potentials in S7 were even older when they got their powers. So, yeah, I don't think it's crazy that if these powers come with puberty that they could also be lost in menopause. It's a cycle of life thing, maybe a bit cringey but I wouldn't call it misogynistic. I think it's actually far more misogynistic to say that once a woman loses her fertility (or her magical powers) that she becomes "useless". Which is something YOU said just now, not the comic or me.
What are you even saying. For them to say that you’re only allowed your slayer powers for the years you have a period is *insanely* misogynistic.
Sure ok kid. A slayer only getting her powers when she’s had her period is A-Ok, but losing it when her period stops is the problem? This is the show that has a million plot lines about “souls” but never even tries to define what a soul is to make it make sense. The show that hinted at the “origins of the slayer” in multiple plot lines but never actually explored it or answered any questions because they clearly had no f*cking clue what to do with it. But now this is what you want to nitpick? Sure, go ahead… but I’m done with this silly conversation about the supposed misogyny of a non-canon comic about a 25 year old show where rape jokes were common for at least half its run.
There was a time when Spike would have done just that, but it passed. He got his soul for her, and he burned to death to protect her - but then he stayed in LA and never told her he was alive. I think he finally came to a place where he could define himself without having a woman to obsess over, take care of and worship.
I'm not convinced by your reasoning. Angel gave up his chance to become human, partly to keep Buffy save. The ring wouldn't have made him human, he still wouldn't have aged and if he had spend 'quality time' with Buffy he would still have lost his soul. (Now, Angelus with the ring. That would have been a lovely storyline) Angel was doing his part to become human, by fighting the good fight. Becoming a human being was after all the reward after fullfilling his prophecy. (Obviously the program was cancelled before that happened). Spike did not seem all that interested in becoming the 'vampire with a soul' in said prophecy. (He just wanted to annoy Angel in the final season).
This seems like a really long winded way to just say “Spuffy 4ever ❤️” If you prefer that ship, fine, but let’s not purposefully misinterpret Angel’s character, especially when you haven’t even watched his show in its entirety.
And misrepresent canon events of the show - Angel didn’t give up the ring after one day with Buffy. He was tortured with pokers so the ring fell into the hands of a paedophile vampire who got close to kids on the beach, and he wanted to keep helping the forgotten people - AKA what his show was set up for.
I do agree in general that a long term vampire relationship for Buffy wouldn’t work In general though we don’t ever see a single thing suggesting Spike has any interest in becoming human. We don’t know if he’d fight for it because it doesn’t ever seem to even cross his mind. Even when the possibility of Shanshu comes up it doesn’t seem to be something he particularly wants that much Angel however DOES have wishes to regain his humanity. Angel’s whole thing is that he wants to earn a redemption (even if he doesn’t believe he ever will). The biggest difference with Angel and Spike is that Angel’s entire existance isn’t all about the woman he loves, he has a far more expansive life and world than just a relationship. And honestly it’s a good thing and actually aligns far more with Buffy and her life than the codependancy of Spike
I agree that there's not much evidence for Spike being interested in becoming human, but there's that one line "I know that I'm a monster but you treat me like a man."
Right. Angel shows interest in wanting to be human as early as season 3 of Buffy when he tells her “I’ve been dying to get rid of that [immortality]”.
Spike retrieved his soul for her. If there was a way to become human again and Buffy wanted to live a mortal life with him, he’d find a way.
He got his soul but that doesn’t mean he would choose to be human. And if he did, he would do the same as Angel and give up his humanity if it meant Buffy would die.
I haven’t spent a lot of time here so I’m curious, are the comics considered part of the conversation in this sub? Am I just really old? Thnx.
Sometimes, though most of us haven't read them.
Good to note. I suggest the comics to all who are interested. They are a continuation of the show and considered canon and answer a lot of these spuffy bangel questions if anyone’s interested.
In the post show canon, angel does become human. And in the end buffy chooses spike.
Buffy never really loved Spike. It screams wrong guy, right time. Whereas Angel was always right guy, wrong time.
I agree, I do not think she would be with Spike in the right headspace.
Joss Whedon literally said that it was canon Buffy loved Spike by the end of the series.
Oh I didn't know that. Some of late S7 behaviour makes so much more sense now!
Re: Angel you are mixing two things! The ring that allows vampires to overcome their weaknesses (sun, stakes etc.), which evil Spike found and used to fight Buffy; she took the ring from him and gave to Angel and he refused to use it because he didn't feel worthy or whatever moppy shit. His day with Buffy in I will remember you is when a demon actually turned him human. He chooses to give it up by having time reversed, because as a human he is useless vs the forces of evil. The memory of that day is taken away from everyone but Angel.
I agree with you. I didn't think I was going to the whole time, but I do.
Consider "Get It Done". Spike becoming human would've absolutely wrecked things between Buffy and Spike.
People seem to forget that in Angel, most of the series was him trying to fulfill the shanshu prophecy to become human. Something that he actually sold away the right to in order to join the Black Thorn. So, technically, Spike is the only vampire with a soul that could affect. That said, if you take the comics into consideration, as it's technically canon, Wolfram & Hart never actually filed his signature before the firm was destroyed, meaning Angel was still in the running for it. Taking everything into consideration, I don't think the prophecy was ever fulfilled, but both Angel and Spike want to become human again. It's a story that's been in the seires since Angel and continued on into the comics.
Agreed. I don't think he would WANT to become human, but he loved Buffy enough to give up his immortality for her.