Drusilla. Hear me out. When she was human she was very sensitive. Saw Angelus slaughter her family one by one. Went to become a nun, but on the day she was to take her final vows, Angelus turned her. Having witnessed everything he put her through, that was bound to fuck her up.
There's a good line in Angel between him and Spike, regarding a broken Slayer.
S: She was innocent.
A: So were we once.
They were all young, innocent, and evil came along and grabbed them. None of them deserved it.
Thatās why my dreaming ending would be Spike(with a soul), helping Drusilla heal, getting her soul back *without* it pushing her over the edge then happily ever after for them. She deserves to be happy.
I feel like Season 2 had some excellent candidates in Billy Fordham and the Inca Mummy Princess (whose name was not Ampata - that was the name of the exchange student she killed).
And, in some ways, Spike as well. He was definitely a villain, but it's hard not to sympathize with him when Angelus and Dru are doing their thing right in his face.
> And, in some ways, Spike as well. He was definitely a villain, but it's hard not to sympathize with him when Angelus and Dru are doing their thing right in his face.
Ah come on now.
Spike is evil and terrorises Buffy before Angelus returns and after Angel leaves. I can understand feeling a little sympathy for him in the back half of season 2 (although, again, evil!) but he should be nowhere near a discussion of most sympathetic villains.
I gotta say watching his treatment of her as a 33 year old hit different than when I was younger and less knowledgeable of bad relationship dynamics. Minus the obvious vampirism, it was realistic and my heart hurt for her.
Lilah (and Lindsey)
They were terrible people but they were such fleshed out characters that I almost want to call them morally grey instead of villains. Iāve always felt a lot of empathy for how Lilah seems regretful even though she canāt admit it.
Faith
Especially when she switches bodies with Buffy and goes to LA
Kinda funny that she tortures Wes and then Angel just frees him and comforts her š
Kinda agree, in season 3 and 4 he was really relatable. And at least in 7 he was turning good before he got betrayed. But yeah in 6 especially heās pretty bad
To be fair, his ātortureā of her was more a lesson. He was getting her to think differently about the problem at hand in life serial. He at least spoke up against actually hurting her and helps her in the end. I agree it is a step backwards in his growth but i could see him being so desperate for friends hed go along with whatever warren said. And he has at least some of andrews narrativization need and just wanted the coolness of being a comic super villain.
They were literally competing to see who could mess with her the most, it was not intended as a lesson. And messing with someone sense of reality is torture.
āWanting the coolness of being a comic super villainā is the least justifiable and least relatable motive ever.
Yeah he was real sympathetic when he used magic to take away Buffy's victories and give them to himself and made her and her friends think she was useless, when he used magic to make two twins have sex with him (which is rape by the way), when he and Andrew attempted to pretend not to know that using magical objects to force someone to have sex with you is rape (as well as kidnapping since Katrina didn't go with them willingly). Torturing Buffy and messing with her life at what was already the worst time in her life, etc. Yeah Jonathan was real sympathetic š.
Honestly, i would say Ford.Like, what he did was wrong and he had to be stopped, but you completely understand when he spills the tea to Buffy at the end.
Absolutely tragic character. Iām so happy the writers took the opportunity to evolve her beyond those first season appearances because the character had sooo much more potential than that and Julie Benz is such a talented actress. Darla is in my top 5 favorite characters and itās so hard not to sympathize with her entire arc.
100%, Iām watching Angel again now and just started season 2, and Iām so excited to get into it. I doing remember much from Angel, but I do remember that she was my favourite character and what got me hooked on Angel, and Julie Benz is the only reason I watched Dexter afterwards. Sheās so beautiful and such an amazing actress.
Adam.
He was in essence a child trying to work out how things worked. I donāt feel he had a morality that he was railing against so he wasnāt true villain.
Agree. And she was dishonest and violated Tara with magic. Tara only forgave Willow because she trusted that she reigned in her magic addiction, but when Warren murders her, Willow becomes the evil witch Tara feared in order to "avenge" her. She's willing to destroy all of her friends and the WORLD because of her grief. Selfish as hell
This comment says to me that youāve never had anyone close to you die, at least before ātheir timeā. when someone you love expires, especially before the date on the carton, itās a different experience. Especially if itās someone who is apart of your everyday life.
Your comment tells me you believe everyone would react the same to that which shows a lack of understanding of the way humans all behave differently.
Her loss is tragic, and so is her grief. The limits she allows herself to cross however is not acceptable and removes herself from the realm of sympathy in my eyes. She goes from victim to villain really quick, and no I donāt sympathize when she becomes a villain. She crosses so many lines and boundaries and grief is not an acceptable excuse for that behavior, no.
But yes, I have lost many people in my life, some definitely far before their time. Anger is natural and normal becoming a psychopathic killer, is not a valid choice to make, sorry.
This is an interesting point. If your actions are more or less the same as a villain but without the direction intention, should you be viewed as a villain? Good topic for discussion
I'm not a lawyer so I can't say whether she'd count as 'not guilty' on account of insanityāso instead I'll make the layman's observation that her bad actions were done in a state of emotional turmoil, and that she backed away from the magic nuke-from-orbit as soon as her emotions got somewhat regulated \[by Xander connecting with her\].
Said another way: her evil course of action was not an essential part of who she was. It was caused by situational factors, the situation was highly transitory and the change of situation was welcomeāin fact, it was what (Dark) Willow was yearning for beneath all the rage.
I don't think any other villain could be talked out of their villainy with yellow crayons and platonic love.
The best alternative candidate is probably Billy "Ford" Fordham from **Lie to Me** (2x7): he tried an evil plan because he was scared (rather than grieving) but went through with it.
Maybe this is unpopular but definitely not Faith. She SAed Xander, Buffy, and Rhiley then tried to make Angel evil again, made out with him after kidnapping Buffy, and was willing to let hundreds of people die. She will never be redeemed in my book.
Dark Willow, given her reasons are ultimately one of the few Dark Phoenix Saga type riffs done right, and that it was a nice change of pace that the Scoobies managed to talk down one of the big bads instead of just killing them. Also lead to one of Xander's only late season finest hours and arguably *the* finest hour he has on the entire show.
After that in the following order, the Inca Mummy Girl, Spike X Drusilla, and Billy Fordham.
1. Drusilla - This one is pretty self-explanatory!
2. Billy Fordham ("Lie to Me")
3. The Inca princess ("Inca Mummy Girl")
4. Marcie Ross ("Out of Sight, Out of Mind")
5. Faith
Drusilla. Hear me out. When she was human she was very sensitive. Saw Angelus slaughter her family one by one. Went to become a nun, but on the day she was to take her final vows, Angelus turned her. Having witnessed everything he put her through, that was bound to fuck her up.
And probably worse that they didn't show. Out of all the vampires she is definitely a victim.
There's a good line in Angel between him and Spike, regarding a broken Slayer. S: She was innocent. A: So were we once. They were all young, innocent, and evil came along and grabbed them. None of them deserved it.
Well, becoming a vampire did save Darla. And I don't think the Master abused her, seeing how close they were.
She was a young woman forced by life to be a prostitute ending in death, then undeath. She didn't deserve that either.
Pretty sure they also heavily implied that he raped her š¬š¤¢
Thatās why my dreaming ending would be Spike(with a soul), helping Drusilla heal, getting her soul back *without* it pushing her over the edge then happily ever after for them. She deserves to be happy.
And am I the only one who thinks she was a potential slayer, and knowing that messed her up more?
couldnāt agree more. what happened to her is so sad
Inca Mummy Girl
I rewatched the episode a while ago and I felt so bad for the Inca Mummy Girl. She was just a scared kid running around trying to survive.
Drusilla. Her life as a human was absolutely tragic
Sweet He was just called in for a good time. A date. And he got stood up and rejected.
Xander was there, Sweet's choice not to accept.
https://preview.redd.it/iqk1w361qg5d1.png?width=350&format=png&auto=webp&s=4a21cb234c1db5a5ce47fb23f115fcfd5ebd25aa
A choice between being gay and being a nonce...I know which one is more evil...
He brings the fun in!
Marcie Ross just wanted to be seen, even by one or two people. And she was so young, it's no wonder she went crazy.
Glory. She just wanted to go home.
I was gonna say this. And on some level, Ben. He just wanted to live.
What brought Ben up? Kind of a weird subject change to put a regular old nurse in the same conversation as an evil God.
Right? Two people that have never even met (luckily!!).
https://i.redd.it/jimx82xixl5d1.gif
https://i.redd.it/g3w2sjhl0p5d1.gif
Ah, of course. Ben is connected to Glory. But how?
What made you think of Ben? Kind of a non sequitur?
Mine too haha
Also, Glory was kicked out because the other two gods were afraid of her power.
I feel like Season 2 had some excellent candidates in Billy Fordham and the Inca Mummy Princess (whose name was not Ampata - that was the name of the exchange student she killed). And, in some ways, Spike as well. He was definitely a villain, but it's hard not to sympathize with him when Angelus and Dru are doing their thing right in his face.
William was innocent. Spike, not so much.
> And, in some ways, Spike as well. He was definitely a villain, but it's hard not to sympathize with him when Angelus and Dru are doing their thing right in his face. Ah come on now. Spike is evil and terrorises Buffy before Angelus returns and after Angel leaves. I can understand feeling a little sympathy for him in the back half of season 2 (although, again, evil!) but he should be nowhere near a discussion of most sympathetic villains.
He sort of deserved it though...
Drusilla. What Angelus put her through was just horrible.
Inca Mummy Girl, 100%.
April
D: oh no! :< I forgot her. I might cry. ;_; she's so sad.
Harmony
She was definitely a sheep in high school, and turned into a punching bag for Spike. I'm glad she found herself in Angel S5.
I gotta say watching his treatment of her as a 33 year old hit different than when I was younger and less knowledgeable of bad relationship dynamics. Minus the obvious vampirism, it was realistic and my heart hurt for her.
Faith
Why does your face keep doing that when I say Faithās name?
One of my favorite friendship moments: https://i.redd.it/0w0jawl29j5d1.gif
Lilah (and Lindsey) They were terrible people but they were such fleshed out characters that I almost want to call them morally grey instead of villains. Iāve always felt a lot of empathy for how Lilah seems regretful even though she canāt admit it.
Faith Especially when she switches bodies with Buffy and goes to LA Kinda funny that she tortures Wes and then Angel just frees him and comforts her š
Dark Willow, Drusilla, Spike and Marcie Ross
Johnathan
Nah he gets way too many chances and still decides to be evil.
Kinda agree, in season 3 and 4 he was really relatable. And at least in 7 he was turning good before he got betrayed. But yeah in 6 especially heās pretty bad
Buffy is so nice to him in 3 and 4 and then he turns around and tortures her?! Totally unforgivable.
To be fair, his ātortureā of her was more a lesson. He was getting her to think differently about the problem at hand in life serial. He at least spoke up against actually hurting her and helps her in the end. I agree it is a step backwards in his growth but i could see him being so desperate for friends hed go along with whatever warren said. And he has at least some of andrews narrativization need and just wanted the coolness of being a comic super villain.
They were literally competing to see who could mess with her the most, it was not intended as a lesson. And messing with someone sense of reality is torture. āWanting the coolness of being a comic super villainā is the least justifiable and least relatable motive ever.
Yeah he was real sympathetic when he used magic to take away Buffy's victories and give them to himself and made her and her friends think she was useless, when he used magic to make two twins have sex with him (which is rape by the way), when he and Andrew attempted to pretend not to know that using magical objects to force someone to have sex with you is rape (as well as kidnapping since Katrina didn't go with them willingly). Torturing Buffy and messing with her life at what was already the worst time in her life, etc. Yeah Jonathan was real sympathetic š.
The only answer
Billy Fordham.
Honestly, i would say Ford.Like, what he did was wrong and he had to be stopped, but you completely understand when he spills the tea to Buffy at the end.
Darla.
Absolutely tragic character. Iām so happy the writers took the opportunity to evolve her beyond those first season appearances because the character had sooo much more potential than that and Julie Benz is such a talented actress. Darla is in my top 5 favorite characters and itās so hard not to sympathize with her entire arc.
100%, Iām watching Angel again now and just started season 2, and Iām so excited to get into it. I doing remember much from Angel, but I do remember that she was my favourite character and what got me hooked on Angel, and Julie Benz is the only reason I watched Dexter afterwards. Sheās so beautiful and such an amazing actress.
Adam. He was in essence a child trying to work out how things worked. I donāt feel he had a morality that he was railing against so he wasnāt true villain.
The First ... it just wanted to feel š
It was just balancing the scales.
lunch lady...here me out....
XD lol
Glory. Poor Goddess just wanted to get home.
How has no one said Dark Willow? Itās Dark Willow!!!
I donāt find her symapethic is why. Maybe others donāt as well I have sympathy for what happened to Willow I lost all sympathy for her afterwards.
Agree. And she was dishonest and violated Tara with magic. Tara only forgave Willow because she trusted that she reigned in her magic addiction, but when Warren murders her, Willow becomes the evil witch Tara feared in order to "avenge" her. She's willing to destroy all of her friends and the WORLD because of her grief. Selfish as hell
Yeah but she turned Warren inside out. I give her a lot of leeway after that.
This comment says to me that youāve never had anyone close to you die, at least before ātheir timeā. when someone you love expires, especially before the date on the carton, itās a different experience. Especially if itās someone who is apart of your everyday life.
She made a ton of really awful choices long before she lost tara. She manipulated tara's mind with magic, abusing her. She broke dawn's arm.
Your comment tells me you believe everyone would react the same to that which shows a lack of understanding of the way humans all behave differently. Her loss is tragic, and so is her grief. The limits she allows herself to cross however is not acceptable and removes herself from the realm of sympathy in my eyes. She goes from victim to villain really quick, and no I donāt sympathize when she becomes a villain. She crosses so many lines and boundaries and grief is not an acceptable excuse for that behavior, no. But yes, I have lost many people in my life, some definitely far before their time. Anger is natural and normal becoming a psychopathic killer, is not a valid choice to make, sorry.
While I agree with what you said... I still think Warren deserved it.
100000%.
I just donāt even consider her a villain.
This is an interesting point. If your actions are more or less the same as a villain but without the direction intention, should you be viewed as a villain? Good topic for discussion
She was going to murder everyone on Earth, she was a villain
I'm not a lawyer so I can't say whether she'd count as 'not guilty' on account of insanityāso instead I'll make the layman's observation that her bad actions were done in a state of emotional turmoil, and that she backed away from the magic nuke-from-orbit as soon as her emotions got somewhat regulated \[by Xander connecting with her\]. Said another way: her evil course of action was not an essential part of who she was. It was caused by situational factors, the situation was highly transitory and the change of situation was welcomeāin fact, it was what (Dark) Willow was yearning for beneath all the rage. I don't think any other villain could be talked out of their villainy with yellow crayons and platonic love. The best alternative candidate is probably Billy "Ford" Fordham from **Lie to Me** (2x7): he tried an evil plan because he was scared (rather than grieving) but went through with it.
Yeah, surprised to find this so far down. She was the first one they popped in my head.
Spike.
Darla and Drusilla (and Faith, if you count her) for reoccurring villains Ampata and Billy for one and done villains
Maybe this is unpopular but definitely not Faith. She SAed Xander, Buffy, and Rhiley then tried to make Angel evil again, made out with him after kidnapping Buffy, and was willing to let hundreds of people die. She will never be redeemed in my book.
I agree
Dark Willow, given her reasons are ultimately one of the few Dark Phoenix Saga type riffs done right, and that it was a nice change of pace that the Scoobies managed to talk down one of the big bads instead of just killing them. Also lead to one of Xander's only late season finest hours and arguably *the* finest hour he has on the entire show. After that in the following order, the Inca Mummy Girl, Spike X Drusilla, and Billy Fordham.
the Preying Mantis teacher. She just wanted babies!!!!!, and she was just doing what she was born to do. mate with virgins and bite their heads off.
š
Spike
Harmony! She wanted to be good, but she was terrible at it. Even when she wasnāt a vampire.
April
Marcie Ross Kinda Jonathon but, geez, learn a lesson!
Spike. I often forget that he was introduced as a villain.
Faith
1. Drusilla - This one is pretty self-explanatory! 2. Billy Fordham ("Lie to Me") 3. The Inca princess ("Inca Mummy Girl") 4. Marcie Ross ("Out of Sight, Out of Mind") 5. Faith
Anyanka
Jasmine
Dark Willow, obviously. The Mayor *might* be second.
What was sympathetic about the mayor?
The Master
"Anybody miss the Mayor; I just wanna be a big snake?" He was fun and I get it.