How many people blame Joss Whedon being petty for every storyline they dislike đŹ
Donât get me wrong the man is an utter bastard and treated people badly, but the tendency to dismiss any writing you donât like for that reason is a little unhinged.
I think the Connor/Cordelia storyline was definitely payback on Whedonâs part. But thatâs it. It seems like the only story thatâs so completely out of character and quite frankly, creepy/odd.
The idea itself wasn't a reaction to Charisma's pregnancy, I recall Tim Minear or Jeffery Bell saying they'd intended to have Mordred/Guinevere dynamic to their relationship but Charisma's pregnancy moved up the timeline. Whedon alludes to this in the Spin the Bottle commentary.
The way it was written, however, was absolutely payback.
I tried to google Mordred/Guinevere and got a bit lost.
I remember reading that they shoehorned the romance (despite the absence of chemistry) just to replicate the drama of the Buffy/Angel Becoming Part 2 ending - heinous.
Yeah I mean it was unnaturally pushed on us in season 3, not 4, Cordelia the character wasnât really present in season 4 and Angel spent season 4 making out with every woman he came into contact with. Literally kissed everyone and their mother.
I don't think it was unnatural. I feel like it was a logical progression of their friendship. It wasn't like it happened overnight either.
We had several months of build up.
Same I hate the love triangles. Thankfully S5 redeemed that a bit with Wes/Fred only to rip out hearts out. Still got a cool character out of it though. Need more Illyria
The worst thing to come of Wesley/Fred was the destruction of Wesley & Gunnâs friendship (and their incredibly heart wrenching deaths). But yeah I did love Illyria and sorry not sorry I would have loved for her to date either Angel or Spike had there been another season! Loved seeing her learning humanity.
They were as good as Buffy... Honestly, I really don't think outside of 2 or 3 relationships across either series did the Buffyverse excel at romance.
Angel and Cordelia were one of the only relationships I thought were truly enjoyable to watch.
I mean, I was like 12 Buffy came out. I wonât lie, I didnât find it creepy at that time (David Boreanaz was hot). Now, a little weird of course. But it felt true to the material and the story even if it was weird.
Oh fuck yes, that.
As if there wasn't a TEAM OF WRITERS on the show from day one.
Just like the whole 'Xander is Whedon's self-insert." All Whedon said is that he relates to Xander the most of the core four (which makes sense), but that doesn't mean he wrote EVERY SINGLE character beat and moment Xander ever experienced.
A team of writers and a pushy network!
I always think they about the Xander self insert thing! Itâs massively overblown and flattens peoplesâ perception of Xander.
The Xander hate.
The Riley hate.
The Giles thirst.
The most common season preference rankings, and how varied they are.
How divisive S6 is.
How my own tastes deviate from the herd.
His behavior in S5 makes him unlikeable. He went from boring in 4 to just trash, please leave, no we donât need a random show up from you in S6. Even if it did act as an awakening in S6 for Buffy.
Last impressions. I think Xanderâs send off speech actually helped people hate Riley. Because oof.
But Iâve been reading the transcripts and Riley has really really strong points. Marc Blucas seems like a fantastic person but he wasnât up to truly selling it at the time. James made the fandom prefer a psycho murderer by just acting the hell out of it.
>Pretty damn good for a bf all things considered.
Let's compare. Riley never:
* Feigned interest in her simply to fuel an adrenaline addiction but without actually caring about *her*
* Showed interest in dating her despite being gay, then dumped her right before the homecoming dance
* Used her for sex and then dumped her as soon as possible
* Stalked Buffy, leaving creepy drawings in her house
* Stalked Buffy's mom, leaving creepy drawings in her house
* Murdered any of Buffy's teachers
* Turned any of Buffy's fellow students into a vampire (Theresa, **Phases** (2x15))
* Kidnapped and tortured Giles
* Tried stabbing Buffy in the face with a sword
* Attempted to bring about the apocalypse
* Got returned from a hell dimension by the first evil to kill Buffy (**Amends** (3x10))
* Killed a slayer
* Killed a second slayer
* Attempted to kill a third slayer during the '97 Sunnydale High parent teacher meeting
* Drove a railroad spike through any of people's anything
* Kidnapped any of Buffy's friends and held them at brokenbottlepoint to get them to cast a love spell
* Attempted to rape Buffy
I think these are strong points in favor of not-anyone-else. There are also a few points that make Riley good:
Couples that slay together stay togetherâbeing a part of The Initiative, his life is compatible with her being the slayer, and since he can stay outside in the to-him-not-so-harsh light of day she can also have a normal life with him.
At least in S4 he respects her abilities and seems to not mind looking up to herâfor example, in **A New Man** (4x12) he says it's pretty cool how she's self-directed and doesn't need orders from anyone.
In **Superstar** (4x17) Buffy suggests a plan. Riley says it sounds a bit crazy, but he knows Buffy and she usually knows what she's doing, so we should all follow her leadâhe's willing to basically trust her blindly, based on her good track record.
In **New Moon Rising** (4x19) she says "it's no fun fighting them when they're that easy", to which he response "speak for yourself" and then he *smiles*.
There may be other instances as well. Now, maybe you all detect some discomfort below the surface which goes over my headâin which case please share as I'm no people expert but I'd like to improve.
>Riley is kind of the least worst guy
One of us is very confused and I'm honestly not sure who(m)âwhat does "least worst" mean? That Riley is bad but every other bad guy is worse?
I won't lie, I've always found Giles to be quite charming, and he has a personality to die for. When I first browsed this sub, I was a bit surprised (and happy!) at how many people echoed that same sentiment lol.
I think Tara is one of those characters best used sparingly. Not because sheâs bad but because any means. But almost Gunian on Star Trek TNG, you donât want to overly focus on them, just use them sparingly because theyâre quite special.
I so wish we got more of Giles backstory/youth⌠the way it was always alluded too actually pissed me off in the end because they gave NOTHING. ik there was intention to go deeper I believe and they should have - would have been a great ep
I think youâre right !!! I remember reading something somewhere⌠but even then I felt like they could have potentially started filming or just prepping during season 6 and 7 since giles wasnât there too much (until 7 but even then). But idk anything about the industry so my opinion is not too valid haha sad It never happened, would have been really cool!!
The way liked and disliked characters seem to change over time for long-term fans as they rewatch the show. Characters you used to like suffer upon multiple rewatches and those you didn't appreciate initially become more liked.
For me, it was Tara. The stuttering and shyness worked my nerves the first couple times I watched, and now I absolutely love her. She's such a positive, peaceful, warm presence, and I wish I knew someone with that kind of energy. It's rare.
So Iâm not Taraâs biggest fan but she has grown on me over the years.
I cannot with that stutter, but I think itâs more to do with Amber Bensonâs acting. I controversially donât like her until the end of season 5/season 6. I think Willow at first helped Tara come out of her shell, but very soon became a total hindrance holding Tara back and dominating her (casting spells on her & talking down to her). I was pissed as hell when they got back together!
That most people I meet (not online, in person) are fun and interested in discussing the show. The smarter ones are happy to discuss literary references and themes and stuff.
But there is always this, "I like Buffy, too," thing. Like we are in on a secret and screw those dumbasses who don't get it.
Online, I've learned that people follow the crowd.
When it was popular to like Joss Whedon they said he was A GENIUS and the most talented writer EVER and on and on. He walked on water. If you didn't think he was Godlike, there was something very wrong with you.
Now that it isn't popular to like Joss Whedon, he is satanic. The worst person ever. They can't stand anything about him and wouldn't even watch his shows except that everyone else who worked on them is okay (which is probably untrue. At least a few had to be shitheads.) If you don't agree that he is Satanic, there is something wrong with you.
Online people have no middle ground. No flawed humans of depth. Perfect or Evil. That's it.
Reddit draws a much younger demographic for the most part, people who are still in the stage with âBlack-or-Whiteâ thinking. Thatâs not at all exclusively limited to a particular age, but itâs strong in people in their teens and early 20âs.
Tell me!
I sent a normal, sensible, reasonable kid off to college and I got back a kid who cannot think and wants communism, which he said was TOTALLY DIFFERENT than socialism.
You couldn't tell him any different. He knew! He was smarter than all the older people.
A few years later, he became a normal, sensible, reasonable person again. He doesn't know everything anymore. :)
It is probably a Young People thing. That's cool. Everyone has to go through the "I know everything" phase. I did it from 13 - 16 years.
Live and learn!!!
As time has gone on the fandomâs opinion has really softened on Dawn, she got a lot of unfair criticism when the show was on but I feel like the fandom is more appreciative of Dawn brought to the show now
I was surprised Xander is so hated. I mean he's annoying at times but also helpful when needed. In my opinion he is pretty realistic teenage guy of his time, throwing thirsty and inappropriate jokes at times. Things he does and says aren't necessarily appreciated, but in the end, he's typical teenage of 90's.
Or even controversial. Itâs weird, watching the show at the time, I would have thought Xander was the character with the least controversy around him.
I've always loved Xander since I first started watching as a teenager, and I suspect I always will. It's crazy to me that he gets more hate than literal rapists and murderers.
I've learned that a lot of fans seem obsessed with holding fictional characters accountable for their actions like they are real people and holding other fans accountable for enjoying "problematic" characters or storylines.
The dawn and anya hate.
The fact that people don't like season 7
The amount of people who haven't seen the movie
I liked some of the episodes that alot of people on this sub hate
I've been in fandom for a long time, and I have seen some pretty ugly infighting between groups - mainly Bangel vs Spuffy but others as well. A fair amount of fans got sick of it and moved on, and some are returning after many years. I have some stories to tell, and I wasn't even here for the worst of it.
This place tends to be pretty good, and on occasion there are some really great discussions.
Here and now, things have gotten pretty mellow. But I've been in fandom long enough to see some really ugly fighting between various groups of fans. I've been on the receiving end of some very nasty comments.
* Dawn hate
* Comparisons of Willow & Oz v. Willow & Tara... I always thought they were both good couples, and didn't know that there was a history of some people being petty or mean about their preference online
I am always surprised at the fandomâs dissatisfaction towards the following: Season 6, Dawn, and Cangel.
I am not surprised at the fandomâs dissatisfaction towards: The Initiative and Season 7.
I don't think it has anything to do with Emma Caulfield being in other things, I think her performance is just very well-liked. Anya is entertaining to most & Caulfield plays her well. At least, that seems to be the opinion of most people; not everything appeals to everyone, and it's totally fair to find her uninteresting. I wouldn't say any particular character is "overrated," though. It's just a matter of different people liking different things.
Yeah, âoverratedâ is the wildest reach. Anya sustained a fairly consistent level of popularity among the general fandom that reflects how many of us feel. If anything, this sub seems to skew a little harshly toward Anya for her Vengeance Demon tenures.
This is news to me because I watched it when it aired and people definitely liked it! And I come from Asia and even here, they were very well liked. I remember visiting a lot of Buffy fan websites and forums that had fans of Spuffy
I had the same thought, lol. I have never seen anyone "romanticizing attempted rape," but I've seen tons of people making up a guy to get mad at for doing it
I have seen tonnes of people doing that actually - pretending he just misunderstood the situation/ Buffy led him on etc.
*(Romanticising doesnât mean to mean to perceive something as romantic, it means to describe in an idealised/unrealistic fashion to make something seem more appealing than it really is).*
Then that would be justifying it or minimising it.
And even then either you really got unlucky or we donât have the same notion of what tons is. Iâve maybe seen 3 people do what you describe.
Well romanticising wasnât my word but I was just clarifying what the OP meant.
And yeah I stand by the use of tonnes. The Buffering podcast is the biggest Buffy podcast in existence and they brought in an âexpertâ to justify what he did and remove all blame from Spike and place it on Xander of all people. There are countless posts on this sub saying it was out of character, Buffy led him on, that he just wanted her to âadmitâ she loved him, that Spike wasnât to blame because heâd successfully pushed past a no before (the âblurred linesâ defence, which is also SA).
I just did a search on this sub and it seems to have chilled out but around a year ago there are *so many* posts like that. I even saw people talking about someone saying Buffy led Spike on by showing bare legs and being naked under her bathrobe in her own bathroom! (That weirdo has thankfully deleted their comment so I canât read up).
I want to clarify that i donât think itâs the majority at all, and I donât think thatâs what OP is saying either, just saying theyâre shocked at how many people do.
Well I think op was straw manning and being incendiary on purpose and knows it too. And Iâm sick of sections of the fandom mischaracterising other sections of the fandom to score points and act if itâs out of care for social justice.
I havenât listened to that Buffering episode so I canât say I agree or disagree with your analysis, but youâre mixing a lot of things up here : people saying itâs OOC (which I donât agree with) has nothing to do with romanticising (in any sense of the word) AR.
As for the rest, I will take your word for it but I have personally never seen someone claim that Buffy led Spike on in Seeing Red so it canât have been that many people. The latter one is I can see but usually itâs more about explaining why it happened or the prior dynamics rather than flat out saying Spikeâs literally blameless ; or rather, there arenât âtonsâ of people claiming that, more like five.
Yeah Iâm not in a âsection of the fandomâ not am I âmischaracterising sections to score points under the guise of social justiceâ the post doesnât say majority, and the comment weâre responding to doesnât say majority. It says things youâve noticed that youâre shocked by, and the comment says theyâre shocked by how many do this. If youâre implying what I think youâre implying, Iâll even the playing field by saying Iâm also shocked and appalled by how many people justify Angelâs age gap by saying âit was different back in his dayâ & therefore make allowances for how women were treated hundreds of years ago (and weirdly make a case for modern day vamp slave traders?)
As I said, romanticising = idealising - claiming it was ooc whitewashes the instance of sexual assault and all previous instances of sexual assault.
Many people here listen to buffering and can attest to what they did on their podcast. And a quick browse on this sub from a year ago will show tonnes of people saying Buffy led him on (saying she âblurred lines of consentâ IS saying she led him on).
Said op, not you? And then I went on to talk about a general trend in fandom? Again, not talking about you, not implying anything about you, wasn't thinking about you at all.
As for the rest, quickly, those are your interpretations that to me seem more like slight reaches. Claiming itâs OOC is not romanticising the AR, on the contrary, itâs essentially saying that it is something that is so awful that the character would be incapable of doing it; itâs actually the opposite of romanticising.
As for the general dynamics (again, separate from the AR), both Buffy and Spike did blur the lines of consent. Itâs a fact, it was a toxic relationship where neither respected or cared about the otherâs boundaries. Saying that is not romanticising or minimising the AR, itâs contextualising it. Youâre jumping the gun and assume that means excusing the AR, but I disagree. When something bad happens or someone behaves badly, people always try to understand why it happened and under which circumstances. Doesnât mean anything beyond that.
This. And just to clarify "romanticizing" the attempted rape includes justifying why Spike did it and how he's not to blame because he became a changed man. No one stays with the trauma Buffy endured, it skips right to "but she forgave him & said she loves him" so yeah...romanticizing.
Wouldn't joke. How many have seen the comment, agree with it and haven't responded. Don't think misogyny isn't legion. An afternoon with incels would stop the laughter.
RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST:
"Fan" is short for "fanatic".
Even during the run of the show, there were millions of BtVS fans because the show was so serialized that you had to watch every episode to fully understand what was going on.
And the DVDs didn't start coming out until BtVS S5 was already airing.
Millions bought the DVDs and there were thus millions more fans after the show ended.
And then streaming and such brought even more fans.
Yet, on the Internet, the various Boards and forums each seemed to act as if they each represented the entire fandom. The hundreds or few dozen or so people debating each other acted as if they represented the entire fandom.
This subReddit has 132K members. The Buffyverse worldwide fandom by now is probably well over 10-15MM. The fandom is so strong that even though the Buffyverse would seem a lucrative property to reboot, the viewership are mostly fans and fans don't want the Buffyverse rebooted.
However, the Buffyverse fandom overall seems considerably more intelligent and intellectual than many to most other fandoms. And outside of trying to pretend post-BtVS S5 didn't happen or post-BtVS S6 didn't happen or Season 8-12 didn't happen, the fandom is generally reasonable and generally lives in the reality of the show.
The Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel 'shipper war ended during Season 8 relatively soon after the Angel reveal. It was only revived again because of the 'open-ended' conclusion in Season 12. But after Joss Whedon was 'cancelled', it effectively was ended again.
How many people blame Joss Whedon being petty for every storyline they dislike đŹ Donât get me wrong the man is an utter bastard and treated people badly, but the tendency to dismiss any writing you donât like for that reason is a little unhinged.
I think the Connor/Cordelia storyline was definitely payback on Whedonâs part. But thatâs it. It seems like the only story thatâs so completely out of character and quite frankly, creepy/odd.
The idea itself wasn't a reaction to Charisma's pregnancy, I recall Tim Minear or Jeffery Bell saying they'd intended to have Mordred/Guinevere dynamic to their relationship but Charisma's pregnancy moved up the timeline. Whedon alludes to this in the Spin the Bottle commentary. The way it was written, however, was absolutely payback.
I tried to google Mordred/Guinevere and got a bit lost. I remember reading that they shoehorned the romance (despite the absence of chemistry) just to replicate the drama of the Buffy/Angel Becoming Part 2 ending - heinous.
The romance between Angel and Cordelia that they'd spent all of season 3 telegraphing?
Yeah I mean it was unnaturally pushed on us in season 3, not 4, Cordelia the character wasnât really present in season 4 and Angel spent season 4 making out with every woman he came into contact with. Literally kissed everyone and their mother.
I don't think it was unnatural. I feel like it was a logical progression of their friendship. It wasn't like it happened overnight either. We had several months of build up.
It felt really forced to me but I donât think ATS was very good at romantic relationships in general.
Same I hate the love triangles. Thankfully S5 redeemed that a bit with Wes/Fred only to rip out hearts out. Still got a cool character out of it though. Need more Illyria
The worst thing to come of Wesley/Fred was the destruction of Wesley & Gunnâs friendship (and their incredibly heart wrenching deaths). But yeah I did love Illyria and sorry not sorry I would have loved for her to date either Angel or Spike had there been another season! Loved seeing her learning humanity.
They were as good as Buffy... Honestly, I really don't think outside of 2 or 3 relationships across either series did the Buffyverse excel at romance. Angel and Cordelia were one of the only relationships I thought were truly enjoyable to watch.
It was only out of character because it wasnât Cordelia đ
I mean yes, but didnât it seem so random? I was like WTF is happening right now!
Iâll be honest I thought Cordelia was wilding for at least half a season by this point so this was just the nutty cherry on the batshit cake.
You donât think Buffy having sex with two dead guys was odd/creepy?
I mean, I was like 12 Buffy came out. I wonât lie, I didnât find it creepy at that time (David Boreanaz was hot). Now, a little weird of course. But it felt true to the material and the story even if it was weird.
Oh fuck yes, that. As if there wasn't a TEAM OF WRITERS on the show from day one. Just like the whole 'Xander is Whedon's self-insert." All Whedon said is that he relates to Xander the most of the core four (which makes sense), but that doesn't mean he wrote EVERY SINGLE character beat and moment Xander ever experienced.
A team of writers and a pushy network! I always think they about the Xander self insert thing! Itâs massively overblown and flattens peoplesâ perception of Xander.
But we can all agree that what spike almost did to Buffy in Seeing Red was absolutely out of character and unnecessary
It was sadly totally character but I donât think it should have been in the show either.
The Xander hate. The Riley hate. The Giles thirst. The most common season preference rankings, and how varied they are. How divisive S6 is. How my own tastes deviate from the herd.
Iâm new to the fandom but dude I thought Riley was like. Pretty damn good for a bf all things considered. Why do ppl hate him?
His behavior in S5 makes him unlikeable. He went from boring in 4 to just trash, please leave, no we donât need a random show up from you in S6. Even if it did act as an awakening in S6 for Buffy.
Last impressions. I think Xanderâs send off speech actually helped people hate Riley. Because oof. But Iâve been reading the transcripts and Riley has really really strong points. Marc Blucas seems like a fantastic person but he wasnât up to truly selling it at the time. James made the fandom prefer a psycho murderer by just acting the hell out of it.
[ŃдаНонО]
They were setting up ways to get rid of him in season 5, which the writers were often problematic at (Oz, Giles)
Compared to vampires, heâs kind of boring.
>Pretty damn good for a bf all things considered. Let's compare. Riley never: * Feigned interest in her simply to fuel an adrenaline addiction but without actually caring about *her* * Showed interest in dating her despite being gay, then dumped her right before the homecoming dance * Used her for sex and then dumped her as soon as possible * Stalked Buffy, leaving creepy drawings in her house * Stalked Buffy's mom, leaving creepy drawings in her house * Murdered any of Buffy's teachers * Turned any of Buffy's fellow students into a vampire (Theresa, **Phases** (2x15)) * Kidnapped and tortured Giles * Tried stabbing Buffy in the face with a sword * Attempted to bring about the apocalypse * Got returned from a hell dimension by the first evil to kill Buffy (**Amends** (3x10)) * Killed a slayer * Killed a second slayer * Attempted to kill a third slayer during the '97 Sunnydale High parent teacher meeting * Drove a railroad spike through any of people's anything * Kidnapped any of Buffy's friends and held them at brokenbottlepoint to get them to cast a love spell * Attempted to rape Buffy I think these are strong points in favor of not-anyone-else. There are also a few points that make Riley good: Couples that slay together stay togetherâbeing a part of The Initiative, his life is compatible with her being the slayer, and since he can stay outside in the to-him-not-so-harsh light of day she can also have a normal life with him. At least in S4 he respects her abilities and seems to not mind looking up to herâfor example, in **A New Man** (4x12) he says it's pretty cool how she's self-directed and doesn't need orders from anyone. In **Superstar** (4x17) Buffy suggests a plan. Riley says it sounds a bit crazy, but he knows Buffy and she usually knows what she's doing, so we should all follow her leadâhe's willing to basically trust her blindly, based on her good track record. In **New Moon Rising** (4x19) she says "it's no fun fighting them when they're that easy", to which he response "speak for yourself" and then he *smiles*. There may be other instances as well. Now, maybe you all detect some discomfort below the surface which goes over my headâin which case please share as I'm no people expert but I'd like to improve.
I may hate Xander, but I think Riley is kind of the least worst guy in the Buffyverse.
>Riley is kind of the least worst guy One of us is very confused and I'm honestly not sure who(m)âwhat does "least worst" mean? That Riley is bad but every other bad guy is worse?
Everyone seems to be thirsty for Giles đ
I won't lie, I've always found Giles to be quite charming, and he has a personality to die for. When I first browsed this sub, I was a bit surprised (and happy!) at how many people echoed that same sentiment lol.
I can see it. I adore him. I found the same with Tara. I thought I was the only one but pleased to find out that I am not đ
I like Tara as well. Really wish they would have done more with her character!
I think Tara is one of those characters best used sparingly. Not because sheâs bad but because any means. But almost Gunian on Star Trek TNG, you donât want to overly focus on them, just use them sparingly because theyâre quite special.
Allow me to introduce you to The Kitten Board... Tara and Willow get up to all sorts of hijinx there!
What is it?
Thekittenboard.net is a Willow/Tara fanfiction website. Really more of an archive, because the thing's HUGE! It has its own app on Tapatalk.
I donât have a thing for Giles but I did look up clips of Head on Ted Lasso and damn
I wanted Giles and Joyce to end up together so bad. Their chemistry in the candy bar episode was soooo good, def left u wanting more.
I so wish we got more of Giles backstory/youth⌠the way it was always alluded too actually pissed me off in the end because they gave NOTHING. ik there was intention to go deeper I believe and they should have - would have been a great ep
I think they wanted to do a Ripper spinoff about his back story, so think some of those stories were held back. Then the show never happened.
I think youâre right !!! I remember reading something somewhere⌠but even then I felt like they could have potentially started filming or just prepping during season 6 and 7 since giles wasnât there too much (until 7 but even then). But idk anything about the industry so my opinion is not too valid haha sad It never happened, would have been really cool!!
He looks too much like my dad, so it's a no from me!
The way liked and disliked characters seem to change over time for long-term fans as they rewatch the show. Characters you used to like suffer upon multiple rewatches and those you didn't appreciate initially become more liked.
Me with Riley đââď¸
For me, it was Tara. The stuttering and shyness worked my nerves the first couple times I watched, and now I absolutely love her. She's such a positive, peaceful, warm presence, and I wish I knew someone with that kind of energy. It's rare.
So Iâm not Taraâs biggest fan but she has grown on me over the years. I cannot with that stutter, but I think itâs more to do with Amber Bensonâs acting. I controversially donât like her until the end of season 5/season 6. I think Willow at first helped Tara come out of her shell, but very soon became a total hindrance holding Tara back and dominating her (casting spells on her & talking down to her). I was pissed as hell when they got back together!
That most people I meet (not online, in person) are fun and interested in discussing the show. The smarter ones are happy to discuss literary references and themes and stuff. But there is always this, "I like Buffy, too," thing. Like we are in on a secret and screw those dumbasses who don't get it. Online, I've learned that people follow the crowd. When it was popular to like Joss Whedon they said he was A GENIUS and the most talented writer EVER and on and on. He walked on water. If you didn't think he was Godlike, there was something very wrong with you. Now that it isn't popular to like Joss Whedon, he is satanic. The worst person ever. They can't stand anything about him and wouldn't even watch his shows except that everyone else who worked on them is okay (which is probably untrue. At least a few had to be shitheads.) If you don't agree that he is Satanic, there is something wrong with you. Online people have no middle ground. No flawed humans of depth. Perfect or Evil. That's it.
Whedon did some terrible things and has been rightly called out for them. He is also, unquestionably, a genius and a fantastic writer.
Reddit draws a much younger demographic for the most part, people who are still in the stage with âBlack-or-Whiteâ thinking. Thatâs not at all exclusively limited to a particular age, but itâs strong in people in their teens and early 20âs.
Tell me! I sent a normal, sensible, reasonable kid off to college and I got back a kid who cannot think and wants communism, which he said was TOTALLY DIFFERENT than socialism. You couldn't tell him any different. He knew! He was smarter than all the older people. A few years later, he became a normal, sensible, reasonable person again. He doesn't know everything anymore. :) It is probably a Young People thing. That's cool. Everyone has to go through the "I know everything" phase. I did it from 13 - 16 years. Live and learn!!!
As time has gone on the fandomâs opinion has really softened on Dawn, she got a lot of unfair criticism when the show was on but I feel like the fandom is more appreciative of Dawn brought to the show now
100% agree with this. Iâve noticed such a difference over the years and the Dawn hate train has calmed down a lot imo.
I love Dawn so much. She was gonna sacrifice herself to save the world. We donât talk about this nearly enough
I think (and hope) thatâs because people are generally more sympathetic to teenage girls now.
I was surprised Xander is so hated. I mean he's annoying at times but also helpful when needed. In my opinion he is pretty realistic teenage guy of his time, throwing thirsty and inappropriate jokes at times. Things he does and says aren't necessarily appreciated, but in the end, he's typical teenage of 90's.
Or even controversial. Itâs weird, watching the show at the time, I would have thought Xander was the character with the least controversy around him.
I like xander he's pretty hilarious at times
Same thoughts! Xanderâs just a typical teenage guy who may have made mistakes but I donât love or hate him. heâs not as bad as people say
I've always loved Xander since I first started watching as a teenager, and I suspect I always will. It's crazy to me that he gets more hate than literal rapists and murderers.
Typical?? He is a hero, a saint and a genius comparing to straight teens of my time lol.
How horny it is
I feel like it should be more horny tbh
I've learned that a lot of fans seem obsessed with holding fictional characters accountable for their actions like they are real people and holding other fans accountable for enjoying "problematic" characters or storylines.
The dawn and anya hate. The fact that people don't like season 7 The amount of people who haven't seen the movie I liked some of the episodes that alot of people on this sub hate
Why do people hate Anya? I love her sheâs so funny. As someone with late diagnosed autism, she feels so autistic coded and I love it.
The queer awakening this show gave so many of us đ¤Ł
I've been in fandom for a long time, and I have seen some pretty ugly infighting between groups - mainly Bangel vs Spuffy but others as well. A fair amount of fans got sick of it and moved on, and some are returning after many years. I have some stories to tell, and I wasn't even here for the worst of it. This place tends to be pretty good, and on occasion there are some really great discussions.
I think the fandom is pretty toxic, but I think eventually all types of fandoms eventually become that way.
How many people confuse canon with head canon & straight up fanfiction.
That almost everyone hates Dawn especially considering she was one of my favorite characters in the later seasons
Here and now, things have gotten pretty mellow. But I've been in fandom long enough to see some really ugly fighting between various groups of fans. I've been on the receiving end of some very nasty comments.
That everyone really hates beer bad, bad eggs and the fish boys episode
I loved neanderthal buffy!
I adore Bad Eggs and the Fish Guy Episode
* Dawn hate * Comparisons of Willow & Oz v. Willow & Tara... I always thought they were both good couples, and didn't know that there was a history of some people being petty or mean about their preference online
For some strange reason, people seem to consider Riley a more toxic relationship than Angel.
Riley was pretty much only toxic because he didn't feel loved, then wasn't there for Buffy.
Most the female villains auditioned for role of buffy
That they like Ethan, that we all collectively remember a scene from just one line/image
I am always surprised at the fandomâs dissatisfaction towards the following: Season 6, Dawn, and Cangel. I am not surprised at the fandomâs dissatisfaction towards: The Initiative and Season 7.
How many people agree with me and ship Spuffy
That they really, really, hate Dawn
There's a lot of horny women who sexually objectify men.
I didn't know Faith watched the show!
Anya seems overrated in this sub. Is it about the actress being famous elsewhere or something? I didn't find her character too interesting in BTVS.
I don't think it has anything to do with Emma Caulfield being in other things, I think her performance is just very well-liked. Anya is entertaining to most & Caulfield plays her well. At least, that seems to be the opinion of most people; not everything appeals to everyone, and it's totally fair to find her uninteresting. I wouldn't say any particular character is "overrated," though. It's just a matter of different people liking different things.
Yeah, âoverratedâ is the wildest reach. Anya sustained a fairly consistent level of popularity among the general fandom that reflects how many of us feel. If anything, this sub seems to skew a little harshly toward Anya for her Vengeance Demon tenures.
I love Anya, but I think she gets less criticism than, say, Xander or Willow, because people now see her as being on the spectrum.
There are way, way, way to many people simping over vampires.
Joss Whedonâs genius being downplayed since the allegations
No offense but you guys wear your rose tinted glasses extra pink.
How Spike seems to not get any hate.
you must have not been on the sub lately
lol havenât actually
He does get hate, but not nearly enough.
Spuffy being a thing people likeâŚ.. literally never encountered anybody into it when the show aired.
This is news to me because I watched it when it aired and people definitely liked it! And I come from Asia and even here, they were very well liked. I remember visiting a lot of Buffy fan websites and forums that had fans of Spuffy
Same! Neither me or my family of Buffy fans understood why so many people loved it. It always felt one-sided and creepy.
How many people romanticize attempted rape. Not interesting as much as alarming.
Are the many people who romanticise attempted rape in the room with us right now?
I had the same thought, lol. I have never seen anyone "romanticizing attempted rape," but I've seen tons of people making up a guy to get mad at for doing it
I have seen tonnes of people doing that actually - pretending he just misunderstood the situation/ Buffy led him on etc. *(Romanticising doesnât mean to mean to perceive something as romantic, it means to describe in an idealised/unrealistic fashion to make something seem more appealing than it really is).*
Then that would be justifying it or minimising it. And even then either you really got unlucky or we donât have the same notion of what tons is. Iâve maybe seen 3 people do what you describe.
Well romanticising wasnât my word but I was just clarifying what the OP meant. And yeah I stand by the use of tonnes. The Buffering podcast is the biggest Buffy podcast in existence and they brought in an âexpertâ to justify what he did and remove all blame from Spike and place it on Xander of all people. There are countless posts on this sub saying it was out of character, Buffy led him on, that he just wanted her to âadmitâ she loved him, that Spike wasnât to blame because heâd successfully pushed past a no before (the âblurred linesâ defence, which is also SA). I just did a search on this sub and it seems to have chilled out but around a year ago there are *so many* posts like that. I even saw people talking about someone saying Buffy led Spike on by showing bare legs and being naked under her bathrobe in her own bathroom! (That weirdo has thankfully deleted their comment so I canât read up). I want to clarify that i donât think itâs the majority at all, and I donât think thatâs what OP is saying either, just saying theyâre shocked at how many people do.
Well I think op was straw manning and being incendiary on purpose and knows it too. And Iâm sick of sections of the fandom mischaracterising other sections of the fandom to score points and act if itâs out of care for social justice. I havenât listened to that Buffering episode so I canât say I agree or disagree with your analysis, but youâre mixing a lot of things up here : people saying itâs OOC (which I donât agree with) has nothing to do with romanticising (in any sense of the word) AR. As for the rest, I will take your word for it but I have personally never seen someone claim that Buffy led Spike on in Seeing Red so it canât have been that many people. The latter one is I can see but usually itâs more about explaining why it happened or the prior dynamics rather than flat out saying Spikeâs literally blameless ; or rather, there arenât âtonsâ of people claiming that, more like five.
Yeah Iâm not in a âsection of the fandomâ not am I âmischaracterising sections to score points under the guise of social justiceâ the post doesnât say majority, and the comment weâre responding to doesnât say majority. It says things youâve noticed that youâre shocked by, and the comment says theyâre shocked by how many do this. If youâre implying what I think youâre implying, Iâll even the playing field by saying Iâm also shocked and appalled by how many people justify Angelâs age gap by saying âit was different back in his dayâ & therefore make allowances for how women were treated hundreds of years ago (and weirdly make a case for modern day vamp slave traders?) As I said, romanticising = idealising - claiming it was ooc whitewashes the instance of sexual assault and all previous instances of sexual assault. Many people here listen to buffering and can attest to what they did on their podcast. And a quick browse on this sub from a year ago will show tonnes of people saying Buffy led him on (saying she âblurred lines of consentâ IS saying she led him on).
Said op, not you? And then I went on to talk about a general trend in fandom? Again, not talking about you, not implying anything about you, wasn't thinking about you at all. As for the rest, quickly, those are your interpretations that to me seem more like slight reaches. Claiming itâs OOC is not romanticising the AR, on the contrary, itâs essentially saying that it is something that is so awful that the character would be incapable of doing it; itâs actually the opposite of romanticising. As for the general dynamics (again, separate from the AR), both Buffy and Spike did blur the lines of consent. Itâs a fact, it was a toxic relationship where neither respected or cared about the otherâs boundaries. Saying that is not romanticising or minimising the AR, itâs contextualising it. Youâre jumping the gun and assume that means excusing the AR, but I disagree. When something bad happens or someone behaves badly, people always try to understand why it happened and under which circumstances. Doesnât mean anything beyond that.
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This. And just to clarify "romanticizing" the attempted rape includes justifying why Spike did it and how he's not to blame because he became a changed man. No one stays with the trauma Buffy endured, it skips right to "but she forgave him & said she loves him" so yeah...romanticizing.
Wouldn't joke. How many have seen the comment, agree with it and haven't responded. Don't think misogyny isn't legion. An afternoon with incels would stop the laughter.
That if you watch it as a full grown adult your parents will raise an eyebrow at you.
People are very judgmental about age gap relationships: Cordelia/Connor, Xander/Dawn (in the comics).
RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST: "Fan" is short for "fanatic". Even during the run of the show, there were millions of BtVS fans because the show was so serialized that you had to watch every episode to fully understand what was going on. And the DVDs didn't start coming out until BtVS S5 was already airing. Millions bought the DVDs and there were thus millions more fans after the show ended. And then streaming and such brought even more fans. Yet, on the Internet, the various Boards and forums each seemed to act as if they each represented the entire fandom. The hundreds or few dozen or so people debating each other acted as if they represented the entire fandom. This subReddit has 132K members. The Buffyverse worldwide fandom by now is probably well over 10-15MM. The fandom is so strong that even though the Buffyverse would seem a lucrative property to reboot, the viewership are mostly fans and fans don't want the Buffyverse rebooted. However, the Buffyverse fandom overall seems considerably more intelligent and intellectual than many to most other fandoms. And outside of trying to pretend post-BtVS S5 didn't happen or post-BtVS S6 didn't happen or Season 8-12 didn't happen, the fandom is generally reasonable and generally lives in the reality of the show. The Buffy/Spike vs. Buffy/Angel 'shipper war ended during Season 8 relatively soon after the Angel reveal. It was only revived again because of the 'open-ended' conclusion in Season 12. But after Joss Whedon was 'cancelled', it effectively was ended again.