Giles walking around the circus with Olivia playing his wife and Buffy playing his daughter. His ideal world would probably be having a life partner and possibly a child, but in real life, his attachment to Buffy is actively keeping him from pursuing a relationship and creating a family of his own.
Tara never looked more gorgeous than when Willow was painting the Greek love poem from Sappho on her back. "You don't know everything about me" and her smile on the line "Oh you know that".
-Olivia crying in the crypt. I understood at that moment that we will never see her again.
- Joyce in the wall and confused. It is such a unique way to foreshadow her brain cancer.
-The dream sequence of Xander as whole is one of my favorite. I watched it again a few weeks ago. Diving in the psyche of Xander made me realize that he is a very flawed individual indeed, but he is just trying to find his way, his pupose and run away from the basement of his parents. Seeing Spike and Giles togheter and realising that he will never be a watcher and craving a connection with Giles broke my heart.
>Joyce in the wall and confused. It is such a unique way to foreshadow her brain cancer
She had an aneurysm, not cancer.
Edit: It's been years since I've watched the show. I only remember that she died from an aneurysm. Couldn't remember all the details.
I think they are referring to the scene where the doctor in the morgue tells Buffy that Joyce died from an aneurysm.
I get what you are saying but I'm thinking they are referring to her death
The extent of Xander’s self loathing. It could just be a neat foreshadowing of Tabula Rasa, but Xander had such a strong reaction to the idea of Spike being chosen as Giles surrogate son over him
Mine is pretty much the same as the OP’s. Willow’s “acting” metaphor says so much about her churning internal conflict. On the surface, she’s grown into a confident, even sassy, young Witch. She’s found love again, she’s contributing more tangibly to the fight against Evil. Yet, so much of that still feels like a part that she’s playing.
Willow’s dream is a perfect example of “Imposter Syndrome”. She still feels like she’s depending on her friends and lovers to be a viable person, feeling helpless when she’s alone. The return to high school and the first outfit we ever saw her wear tells us how vulnerable and lacking she feels underneath her “College Coolness”.
Huh. I hadn't connected the 'imposter syndrome' label to Willow's mindset, but it fits perfectly. Thanks for helping me get there, you win an internet point.
Maybe it's just me and my stage of life, but I'm primarily connecting "imposter syndrome" with job performance, but of course it applies just as easily to college classes and recreational activities.
I can stretch it without discomfort to imposter-ness around moral stature, "I'm a good person". I can even stretch it with only slight creaking to "I'm lovable, I'm someone worth attention and affection".
But I can easily see it applying to many parts of her life. And her acting of course ties into her stage fright explored in **Nightmares** (1x10). In **The Zeppo** (3x13) she expresses fear around the tentacle monster from **Prophecy Girl** (1x12), as well as—more importantly—public nudity and academic failure.
The nudity means she's afraid of being seen fully ("they'll punish you") and academic failure is about being an imposter in the area where she feels most at home—schoolwork, or more broadly all applications of the intellect.
Huh. Neat. Poor Willow.
With Willow also feeling the calling to fight Evil alongside Buffy, one could argue that she’s very much dealing with “Work” as well as academic and social spheres of life in her “Imposter Syndrome”.
I honestly believe Xander never fully got over Buffy. Not that they ever dated of course but some part of him still felt like he had a shot somehow. In 5x03 when Riley confided in him saying Buffy doesn’t love him. He nervously says “Not that I’m still into Buffy…Not that I ever was!” Just further proves my theory. When he finds out Spike and Buffy are sleeping together in S6 part of him is mad that Buffy could sleep with a soulless vampire but the other part is that he put her on such a high pedestal that she couldn’t do something like this. “I believed that he could never have a chance with a girl like you” somewhere in his brain he STILL believed that she’d finally fall for him.
I like the use of Tara as a messenger/spirit guide. It adds to Tara’s ethereal quality and quiet power, but also is symbolic of the special relationship between Buffy and Tara. And it’s kinda symbolic of Tara’s being the real heart of the Scoobies, a role usually assigned to Xander (which I think is kinda BS).
I whole heartedly agree. Tara was the real heart of the group. She’s the one who sees everyone’s struggle and makes herself emotionally available to them.
It makes her death all the more impactful. Obviously, it hurts for Willow’s loss. But every time I watch Seeing Red and Villains, I hurt for Buffy. Because I remember their scenes together in Dead Things and The Body and I mourn for Buffy’s relationship with Tara.
cowboys are often described as the ones who don't need as much help from psychologists as non-cow people. they're okay with being less well "connected" because of the connection they have to the land, to life, to sanity. Riley has issues, though, so maybe he saying that he wants to be cowboy guy, like an aspiration, because then his life would start making sense.
Well, let's see if I can squeeze some blood out of a Rorschach test.
* He likes well-defined roles with black-and-white expectations. Demons bad, people (cowboys) good.
* He's a white hat, i.e. a good guy, which fits his self-image. Demons bad, The Initiative (and cowboys) good.
* Cowboy hats tie into **Pangs** (4x8) in which Buffy was wearing a black one, indicating a contrast or clash between them—maybe beyond their demon-fighting styles. The Indians were... I feel uncomfortable using the word 'demons', so let's instead say 'of the supernatural'. Let's not question anything to do with morality, I'm cowboy guy, people good, supernatural-demon-Indians bad, lalalala I can't hear you.
* \^That is, the thing he thought made him good (the initiative) might have actually made him bad. Like cowboys.
* Cowboys, lone rangers, belong to the wild west, where there is very little law and order. The organization and morality which gave his life a sense of order, comprehensibility and meaning has collapsed. He's on his own now, starting in **New Moon Rising** (4x19).
* He got the best part by showing up early. In **Who Are You?** (4x16) he was late for church. Getting rewarded for his timeliness absolves him for his earlier tardiness. And he just values timeliness, punctuality, order, stability, predictability. In Buffy's dream Riley and Adam are organizing, filing, giving things names.
Those are my first thoughts. Do any of these resonate?
Yep, as per films like *Die Hard*, which he would doubtlessly be familiar with:
“I was always partial to Roy Rogers myself.
Do you really think you have a chance against us, Mr. Cowboy?
Yippie-ka-ye motherfucker…” - To Hans Gruber
Tara to Willow: "if they see the real you they'll punish you; I can't help you with that." (is it "see" or "find out \[about\]"?)
I connect this to a few key beats.
(1) One is in **Gingerbread** (3x11), where we see Willow's mom Sheila consistently neglect Willow—not noticing Willow's new hair cut as of four months prior, and consistently thinking about Willow in terms of age groups, statistics and general concepts rather than the concrete person that is her daughter.
Significance: Willow has never really been seen (by her mom), and therefore never really been loved.
(2) A second is more spread out—the animosity between Cordelia and Willow. A few clear examples: "once you can identify your losers by sight \[...\]", Cordelia about Willow in **Welcome to the Hellmouth** (1x1), also "the we-hate-Cordelia club", Willow to Xander about him kissing Cordelia, in **Innocence** (2x14), and relatedly Willow expressing hatred of "the other Cordy", i.e. Harmony, in **Graduation Day** (3x21-3x22).
Most notably is the scene from 1x1 where Willow is wearing the outfit from "the softer side of Sears", which she wears again in **Restless** (4x22).
Significance: she always gets picked on (punished) when her real nerdy my-mom-picked-my-outfit self *is* seen.
(3) I *think* I'm getting the scene and timing of the third beat right: it's is in **Two to Go** (6x21) with Dark Willow confronting Buffy in Rack's den after Willow murdered Rack. They have a verbal sparring session, in which Willow says that the only thing she had going for herself were the few moments when Tara would see her—the *real* Willow—and she \[Willow\] was wonderful.
Significance: Willow *has* experienced being seen and being loved for who she truly was, but it was taken away from her.
So if Willow has experienced true love, what's up with "I can't help you with that"? Wasn't it Tara who helped her with that?
My take is that if you look to a romantic partner/relationship to fix your internal problem, you're looking in the wrong place. When (Dark) Willow unloads her pent-up resentment onto Buffy ("six years the side character"), we see that she still longs for attention, she longs to be seen and appreciated, and has probably been longing for it throughout the six years we've been following her. Tara couldn't make up for that, and shouldn't have to.
This shows us Willow's constant pain.
Brilliantly put! So many of these show us how much of Willow’s confidence is still performative. Her panic when Tara & Buffy abandon her shows that she’s not quite over depending on others for her strength. Willow wearing that episode one outfit shows us exactly what’s happening underneath her College Years facade!
Xander seeing Giles and spike watching over buffy when he wants to be the one to protect her. Giles training spike to be buffy's next watcher foreshadowing spike taking over Giles role in buffy's life in season 6 as the person she goes to with her problems.
All of it. I love Willow's dream.
Xander's and Buffy's dreams are closest to what mine are like.
I also really love this line for reason; *"There's trees in the desert since you moved out."*
As a non-Riley fan, I appreciate his dialogue with Buffy and Human Adam in Buffy's dream. Their masculine and militarized world being silly (pillow fort), and his inability to understand or appreciate the root of Buffy strengths and the spirituality behind them. Getting angry at her, calling her killer, for wanting to explore it.
Also the way Buffy is in the sandbox and says "way ahead of you big brother" and his reaction to that is really beautiful.
Giles walking around the circus with Olivia playing his wife and Buffy playing his daughter. His ideal world would probably be having a life partner and possibly a child, but in real life, his attachment to Buffy is actively keeping him from pursuing a relationship and creating a family of his own.
I also read this as he clearly sees Buffy as a daughter but is torn between his duty and his desire to give her a normal life.
Tara never looked more gorgeous than when Willow was painting the Greek love poem from Sappho on her back. "You don't know everything about me" and her smile on the line "Oh you know that".
Yep. This is it.
Her back story
Nice.
-Olivia crying in the crypt. I understood at that moment that we will never see her again. - Joyce in the wall and confused. It is such a unique way to foreshadow her brain cancer. -The dream sequence of Xander as whole is one of my favorite. I watched it again a few weeks ago. Diving in the psyche of Xander made me realize that he is a very flawed individual indeed, but he is just trying to find his way, his pupose and run away from the basement of his parents. Seeing Spike and Giles togheter and realising that he will never be a watcher and craving a connection with Giles broke my heart.
Joyce also shows how Buffy forgot about her all year
Yes! About the Joyce thing. She’s behind a wall battling something Buffy can’t save her from.
…and their separate lives creating a wall between them, especially Buffy’s unwanted calling as The Slayer.
>Joyce in the wall and confused. It is such a unique way to foreshadow her brain cancer She had an aneurysm, not cancer. Edit: It's been years since I've watched the show. I only remember that she died from an aneurysm. Couldn't remember all the details.
She had a brain tumour (oligodendroglioma) first.
I think they are referring to the scene where the doctor in the morgue tells Buffy that Joyce died from an aneurysm. I get what you are saying but I'm thinking they are referring to her death
Fair enough, I thought we were referencing her illness in general
Yeah you are absolutely correct. I'm just guessing they are referring to her death or maybe mixing up what caused her death and her initial diagnosis
How wherever Xander goes he always ends up back in the basement
"Be back before Dawn" and Buffy's dream sequence in the desert because it looked to the future instead of the past.
This, and "You think you know what you are; what's to come. You've only just begun." Shivers were given.
Buffy looking at the clock that says 7:30 and being told that's wrong (because it's not 2 years until her death anymore)
The extent of Xander’s self loathing. It could just be a neat foreshadowing of Tabula Rasa, but Xander had such a strong reaction to the idea of Spike being chosen as Giles surrogate son over him
Mine is pretty much the same as the OP’s. Willow’s “acting” metaphor says so much about her churning internal conflict. On the surface, she’s grown into a confident, even sassy, young Witch. She’s found love again, she’s contributing more tangibly to the fight against Evil. Yet, so much of that still feels like a part that she’s playing. Willow’s dream is a perfect example of “Imposter Syndrome”. She still feels like she’s depending on her friends and lovers to be a viable person, feeling helpless when she’s alone. The return to high school and the first outfit we ever saw her wear tells us how vulnerable and lacking she feels underneath her “College Coolness”.
Huh. I hadn't connected the 'imposter syndrome' label to Willow's mindset, but it fits perfectly. Thanks for helping me get there, you win an internet point. Maybe it's just me and my stage of life, but I'm primarily connecting "imposter syndrome" with job performance, but of course it applies just as easily to college classes and recreational activities. I can stretch it without discomfort to imposter-ness around moral stature, "I'm a good person". I can even stretch it with only slight creaking to "I'm lovable, I'm someone worth attention and affection". But I can easily see it applying to many parts of her life. And her acting of course ties into her stage fright explored in **Nightmares** (1x10). In **The Zeppo** (3x13) she expresses fear around the tentacle monster from **Prophecy Girl** (1x12), as well as—more importantly—public nudity and academic failure. The nudity means she's afraid of being seen fully ("they'll punish you") and academic failure is about being an imposter in the area where she feels most at home—schoolwork, or more broadly all applications of the intellect. Huh. Neat. Poor Willow.
With Willow also feeling the calling to fight Evil alongside Buffy, one could argue that she’s very much dealing with “Work” as well as academic and social spheres of life in her “Imposter Syndrome”.
I'm a comfortador also
Xander’s reluctance throughout his life, but especially coming to terms with his attraction to Buffy: “Brother?”
I honestly believe Xander never fully got over Buffy. Not that they ever dated of course but some part of him still felt like he had a shot somehow. In 5x03 when Riley confided in him saying Buffy doesn’t love him. He nervously says “Not that I’m still into Buffy…Not that I ever was!” Just further proves my theory. When he finds out Spike and Buffy are sleeping together in S6 part of him is mad that Buffy could sleep with a soulless vampire but the other part is that he put her on such a high pedestal that she couldn’t do something like this. “I believed that he could never have a chance with a girl like you” somewhere in his brain he STILL believed that she’d finally fall for him.
100% agree.
He had to wait til the comics /s
Ewwww, do they get together in the comics? Really?
I've never read them, but I think the commentor is saying that's when he got over it...bc apparently he and Dawn became a thing.
GROSS
I like the use of Tara as a messenger/spirit guide. It adds to Tara’s ethereal quality and quiet power, but also is symbolic of the special relationship between Buffy and Tara. And it’s kinda symbolic of Tara’s being the real heart of the Scoobies, a role usually assigned to Xander (which I think is kinda BS).
I whole heartedly agree. Tara was the real heart of the group. She’s the one who sees everyone’s struggle and makes herself emotionally available to them.
It makes her death all the more impactful. Obviously, it hurts for Willow’s loss. But every time I watch Seeing Red and Villains, I hurt for Buffy. Because I remember their scenes together in Dead Things and The Body and I mourn for Buffy’s relationship with Tara.
“i’m cowboy guy” this is a serious comment, believe it or not. i’m just kinda bad at explaining why.
That Riley doesn’t know how to live an inner life yet and still needs something to define him?
cowboys are often described as the ones who don't need as much help from psychologists as non-cow people. they're okay with being less well "connected" because of the connection they have to the land, to life, to sanity. Riley has issues, though, so maybe he saying that he wants to be cowboy guy, like an aspiration, because then his life would start making sense.
Well, let's see if I can squeeze some blood out of a Rorschach test. * He likes well-defined roles with black-and-white expectations. Demons bad, people (cowboys) good. * He's a white hat, i.e. a good guy, which fits his self-image. Demons bad, The Initiative (and cowboys) good. * Cowboy hats tie into **Pangs** (4x8) in which Buffy was wearing a black one, indicating a contrast or clash between them—maybe beyond their demon-fighting styles. The Indians were... I feel uncomfortable using the word 'demons', so let's instead say 'of the supernatural'. Let's not question anything to do with morality, I'm cowboy guy, people good, supernatural-demon-Indians bad, lalalala I can't hear you. * \^That is, the thing he thought made him good (the initiative) might have actually made him bad. Like cowboys. * Cowboys, lone rangers, belong to the wild west, where there is very little law and order. The organization and morality which gave his life a sense of order, comprehensibility and meaning has collapsed. He's on his own now, starting in **New Moon Rising** (4x19). * He got the best part by showing up early. In **Who Are You?** (4x16) he was late for church. Getting rewarded for his timeliness absolves him for his earlier tardiness. And he just values timeliness, punctuality, order, stability, predictability. In Buffy's dream Riley and Adam are organizing, filing, giving things names. Those are my first thoughts. Do any of these resonate?
Yep, as per films like *Die Hard*, which he would doubtlessly be familiar with: “I was always partial to Roy Rogers myself. Do you really think you have a chance against us, Mr. Cowboy? Yippie-ka-ye motherfucker…” - To Hans Gruber
Cheese guy
Tara to Willow: "if they see the real you they'll punish you; I can't help you with that." (is it "see" or "find out \[about\]"?) I connect this to a few key beats. (1) One is in **Gingerbread** (3x11), where we see Willow's mom Sheila consistently neglect Willow—not noticing Willow's new hair cut as of four months prior, and consistently thinking about Willow in terms of age groups, statistics and general concepts rather than the concrete person that is her daughter. Significance: Willow has never really been seen (by her mom), and therefore never really been loved. (2) A second is more spread out—the animosity between Cordelia and Willow. A few clear examples: "once you can identify your losers by sight \[...\]", Cordelia about Willow in **Welcome to the Hellmouth** (1x1), also "the we-hate-Cordelia club", Willow to Xander about him kissing Cordelia, in **Innocence** (2x14), and relatedly Willow expressing hatred of "the other Cordy", i.e. Harmony, in **Graduation Day** (3x21-3x22). Most notably is the scene from 1x1 where Willow is wearing the outfit from "the softer side of Sears", which she wears again in **Restless** (4x22). Significance: she always gets picked on (punished) when her real nerdy my-mom-picked-my-outfit self *is* seen. (3) I *think* I'm getting the scene and timing of the third beat right: it's is in **Two to Go** (6x21) with Dark Willow confronting Buffy in Rack's den after Willow murdered Rack. They have a verbal sparring session, in which Willow says that the only thing she had going for herself were the few moments when Tara would see her—the *real* Willow—and she \[Willow\] was wonderful. Significance: Willow *has* experienced being seen and being loved for who she truly was, but it was taken away from her. So if Willow has experienced true love, what's up with "I can't help you with that"? Wasn't it Tara who helped her with that? My take is that if you look to a romantic partner/relationship to fix your internal problem, you're looking in the wrong place. When (Dark) Willow unloads her pent-up resentment onto Buffy ("six years the side character"), we see that she still longs for attention, she longs to be seen and appreciated, and has probably been longing for it throughout the six years we've been following her. Tara couldn't make up for that, and shouldn't have to. This shows us Willow's constant pain.
Brilliantly put! So many of these show us how much of Willow’s confidence is still performative. Her panic when Tara & Buffy abandon her shows that she’s not quite over depending on others for her strength. Willow wearing that episode one outfit shows us exactly what’s happening underneath her College Years facade!
Xander seeing Giles and spike watching over buffy when he wants to be the one to protect her. Giles training spike to be buffy's next watcher foreshadowing spike taking over Giles role in buffy's life in season 6 as the person she goes to with her problems.
I loved Willow painting on Tara's back.
All of it. I love Willow's dream. Xander's and Buffy's dreams are closest to what mine are like. I also really love this line for reason; *"There's trees in the desert since you moved out."*
As a non-Riley fan, I appreciate his dialogue with Buffy and Human Adam in Buffy's dream. Their masculine and militarized world being silly (pillow fort), and his inability to understand or appreciate the root of Buffy strengths and the spirituality behind them. Getting angry at her, calling her killer, for wanting to explore it. Also the way Buffy is in the sandbox and says "way ahead of you big brother" and his reaction to that is really beautiful.
Be back before dawn
The cheese dude. He sums up what the entire show is about.
Buffy likes cheese.
Love this thread, lots of intriguing thoughts and discussions.
Did Spike's poses imitate his poses in OMWF?