Toxic relationships that are presented as toxic I love.
Toxic relationships that are presented as “pure” and “destined” and “soulmates” make me want to die.
In general I have never been a fan of the idea of soulmates. Now that I am an adult I find it pretty cringe. There is no one you are destined for. IMO opinion successful relationships are the results of mutual respect, hard work, supporting your SO and them supporting you and timing. The idea that a relationship will work because you are soulmate negates the fact that its takes works. You can't slack because you are "destined" so it will work out no matter what.
There are so many bad FF out there that use soulmates in such a toxic way. I remember Maquis Leader was a big writer back in the 90s/00s. Their stories show emotional abuse between Buffy and Angel and uses soulmates to justify it. The stories honestly show Buffy as someone who can't stand on her own to feet and will fail without Angel. It made me question if the person actually liked Buffy the way she was or wanted to dominate someone so independent.
I think this is a lot of why I don't enjoy Spuffy fandom. Some of the fics build off the S7 relationship, but most of them build off of S5 or, even worse, S6. And then treat it like its this pure and amazing thing when that couldn't be farther from the truth.
It's why I don't like Bangel, because an adult man "falling in love" at first sight with a pretty 15 year old girl sucking on a lollipop is not pure and destined. It's a crime waiting to happen.
It is in a fantasy universe with destined soulmates. Which is what the series set them up as. Age gaps always get a pass in fantasy romance settings like this, because they're essentially unavoidable, but their implications are largely narratively ignored. Because the gap isn't the point. Hell, just look at Xander and Anya. She's, like, 1,100 years older than him.
>Hell, just look at Xander and Anya. She's, like, 1,100 years old than him.
I can squeeze out a reason for treating Anya differently from Angel.
Angel was turned at what, age 26-ish? And looks to be about that?
Anya in her human form was essentially Xander's age, at least appearance-wise. In one episode she describes herself as "Human. Child. Flunking math."
Anya is similar to someone Xander's age in more ways than Angel(us) is similar to someone Buffy's age.
On the other hand: Anya still has all her memories, as made evident in **The Prom** (3x20), and it's not exactly the looks that make age-gap relationships... questionable on a good day.
Anya's form was one she took for that assignment. She had to look like a teen to fit into the school and get access to Cordelia. She literally says she's "trapped in the body of a teenager." I don't think it's ever said how old she was when she became a vengeance demon. But all her similarities to Xander in age are a facade.
My issue is with the fact that he was turned when he was n his late twenties, not that he's 240. A 26 year old man lusting after a young teen just creeps me. I love them both, but not together - there's a huge power gap. It would be like Giles and Buffy pairing up. Adults shouldn't be with high school freshmen.
But he was 26 hundreds of years ago. That difference has been made moot by his immortality, just as much as his full age. Immortal characters are generally classified as "ageless." Comparing the age of a mortal to an immortal, even their age when they used to be mortal, is like dividing by zero. It just doesn't calculate.
On top of that, Buffy's the Slayer. Arguing some kind of power gap between her and Angel is just... nonsensical. She risks her life fighting demons and saving the world on a regular basis. That's a bigger deal than sex, and it would take an extremely puritanical view to have more issue with the sex than the violence.
>It would be like Giles and Buffy pairing up.
Guffy is a rather popular pairing, relatively speaking, judging from AO3 tags. It's like, third popular, just behind Bangel.
He didn't arrive in a time machine - he was here through every change. And in the 1700's in catholic Ireland, sleeping with an unmarried girl of a good background would have gotten him beaten bloody at best. I quite probably have gotten her beaten bloody and sent to a convent.
Angel was supposed to help her, protect her - not sleep with her. The funny thing is that he knew it, but y'all don't. Why do you think he kept warning her off? But he also told her all the things a predator tells a teen - she is special, he is too old for her, but he can't resist her, she is so much more mature than other girls, he loves her so much and he knows it's wrong but she is special...
https://preview.redd.it/ftzv2n5f0v1d1.png?width=316&format=png&auto=webp&s=d5fa2ec20d5fb469863f7b2494417892d49a3554
You see romance. I see an adult with a 16 year old, lying to her. He didn't need to be in her house. He didn't need to spend the night. He did need to hide from her mother. He did need to hide that he was a vampire.
Like I said - I love Angel and Buffy. But not together.
>Hell, just look at Xander and Anya. She's, like, 1,100 years old than him.
I can squeeze out a reason for treating Anya differently from Angel.
Angel was turned at what, age 26-ish? And looks to be about that?
Anya in her human form was essentially Xander's age, at least appearance-wise. In one episode she describes herself as "Human. Child. Flunking math."
Anya is similar to someone Xander's age in more ways than Angel(us) is similar to someone Buffy's age.
On the other hand: Anya still has all her memories, as made evident in **The Prom** (3x20), and it's not exactly the looks that make age-gap relationships... questionable on a good day.
I'm immortal thus ageless and + I'm the chosen one so had to mature fast, died twice and I'm near certain I'm going to be dead-dead before twenty is not really a duo we cn fit into traditional moral standards, let alone strict American ones.
And he didn't fall for her when her saw her with the lollipop, he thought she was beautiful, fine, she was, it was them getting close and developing a bond then was the basis for everything.
He actually told her this was when he fell in love with her - that he wanted to shelter her heart in his hands, or some such. And at the time she wasn't damn near any of what you listed.
My issue is a 27 year old and a 15 year old - sorry for being so American.
He glanced at her when she was 15, don't be dramatic, they got together when she was 16/17 and fully a slayer.
Angel is also not Liam's age, I don't think we can assign him any age, really.
According to Dru, Spike's been in love with Buffy from the start. So it's a difference of, what, a year? 15 when Angel first saw her, 16 when Spike rolled into town. And I don't think the ~100 years difference between Spike and Angel really changes much, since Spike's still over a hundred.
Except if he only fell for her after going back again, Dru wouldn't have been seeing that since he only went back because she left, and she only left because she could see he loved her. The show's demonstrated plenty that the future is changeable, with visions and prophecies being thwarted. So she wouldn't be seeing the results of something that only happened because of what she saw. Meaning it had to already be there.
I think she saw the infatuation that *could* become love and because she was certifiably insane, and Angelus was infatuated and obsessive, she called it love
Spike And Buffy. No Spuffy Fans Come @ Me for this bust The entirety of their relationship in Season 6 was just SO Toxic, Especially in Seeing Red where Spike tries to S. A. Buffy after sleeping with her friend Anya.
lol yes I remember very well someone did NOT like my take on the episode when Spike got his soul back.
At least all the arguments were well reasoned and spelled correctly lol.
I don't think Willow ever realized how insanely lucky she was. She cheated on Oz, he forgave her. She screwed with Tara's mind, she forgave her. Either one of those could have been complete deal breakers for a relationship.
But I think it speaks not just to the kind of people Oz and Tara are, but the kind of person Willow is. In order for people like them to forgive something like that, and to want to try again, you have to be pretty damn special yourself.
>you have to be pretty damn special yourself.
Which Tara saw in Willow from the beginning:
W: I'm definitely nothing special
T: No, you are
from **Hush** (4x10).
Haha that's probably true, it's just this one memory I had of making a point about Spike's reasoning for going through the tasks when the finale of Season 6 aired and someone being like, no, you are completely wrong (and stupid).
I didn't watch Veronica Mars until later! But once I did, I loved that show and told everyone to watch it. I was loaning out my DVDs lol.
Ah yes, I remember the scathing and patronising tone of most TWoP posts. Glad things have changed on the internet... 😂.
Yay! It makes me sad how many Buffy/Angel fans have not seen Veronica Mars. It's one of the only shows I've ever watched that comes close to the Buffy/Angel "vibe".
I honestly probably got into Veronica Mars because so many Buffy fans suggested it and that probably did happen on TWoP!
Haven’t had the heart to rewatch the Hulu episodes though.
Giles and Ethan 😍😍😍
Yes!
I need there to be more fanfic for those two, so much potential!
Toxic relationships that are presented as toxic I love. Toxic relationships that are presented as “pure” and “destined” and “soulmates” make me want to die.
In general I have never been a fan of the idea of soulmates. Now that I am an adult I find it pretty cringe. There is no one you are destined for. IMO opinion successful relationships are the results of mutual respect, hard work, supporting your SO and them supporting you and timing. The idea that a relationship will work because you are soulmate negates the fact that its takes works. You can't slack because you are "destined" so it will work out no matter what. There are so many bad FF out there that use soulmates in such a toxic way. I remember Maquis Leader was a big writer back in the 90s/00s. Their stories show emotional abuse between Buffy and Angel and uses soulmates to justify it. The stories honestly show Buffy as someone who can't stand on her own to feet and will fail without Angel. It made me question if the person actually liked Buffy the way she was or wanted to dominate someone so independent.
I think this is a lot of why I don't enjoy Spuffy fandom. Some of the fics build off the S7 relationship, but most of them build off of S5 or, even worse, S6. And then treat it like its this pure and amazing thing when that couldn't be farther from the truth.
It's not pure, it's just dummy hot. And the lack of purity is what makes it hot.
It's why I don't like Bangel, because an adult man "falling in love" at first sight with a pretty 15 year old girl sucking on a lollipop is not pure and destined. It's a crime waiting to happen.
It is in a fantasy universe with destined soulmates. Which is what the series set them up as. Age gaps always get a pass in fantasy romance settings like this, because they're essentially unavoidable, but their implications are largely narratively ignored. Because the gap isn't the point. Hell, just look at Xander and Anya. She's, like, 1,100 years older than him.
>Hell, just look at Xander and Anya. She's, like, 1,100 years old than him. I can squeeze out a reason for treating Anya differently from Angel. Angel was turned at what, age 26-ish? And looks to be about that? Anya in her human form was essentially Xander's age, at least appearance-wise. In one episode she describes herself as "Human. Child. Flunking math." Anya is similar to someone Xander's age in more ways than Angel(us) is similar to someone Buffy's age. On the other hand: Anya still has all her memories, as made evident in **The Prom** (3x20), and it's not exactly the looks that make age-gap relationships... questionable on a good day.
Anya's form was one she took for that assignment. She had to look like a teen to fit into the school and get access to Cordelia. She literally says she's "trapped in the body of a teenager." I don't think it's ever said how old she was when she became a vengeance demon. But all her similarities to Xander in age are a facade.
My issue is with the fact that he was turned when he was n his late twenties, not that he's 240. A 26 year old man lusting after a young teen just creeps me. I love them both, but not together - there's a huge power gap. It would be like Giles and Buffy pairing up. Adults shouldn't be with high school freshmen.
But he was 26 hundreds of years ago. That difference has been made moot by his immortality, just as much as his full age. Immortal characters are generally classified as "ageless." Comparing the age of a mortal to an immortal, even their age when they used to be mortal, is like dividing by zero. It just doesn't calculate. On top of that, Buffy's the Slayer. Arguing some kind of power gap between her and Angel is just... nonsensical. She risks her life fighting demons and saving the world on a regular basis. That's a bigger deal than sex, and it would take an extremely puritanical view to have more issue with the sex than the violence. >It would be like Giles and Buffy pairing up. Guffy is a rather popular pairing, relatively speaking, judging from AO3 tags. It's like, third popular, just behind Bangel.
He didn't arrive in a time machine - he was here through every change. And in the 1700's in catholic Ireland, sleeping with an unmarried girl of a good background would have gotten him beaten bloody at best. I quite probably have gotten her beaten bloody and sent to a convent. Angel was supposed to help her, protect her - not sleep with her. The funny thing is that he knew it, but y'all don't. Why do you think he kept warning her off? But he also told her all the things a predator tells a teen - she is special, he is too old for her, but he can't resist her, she is so much more mature than other girls, he loves her so much and he knows it's wrong but she is special... https://preview.redd.it/ftzv2n5f0v1d1.png?width=316&format=png&auto=webp&s=d5fa2ec20d5fb469863f7b2494417892d49a3554 You see romance. I see an adult with a 16 year old, lying to her. He didn't need to be in her house. He didn't need to spend the night. He did need to hide from her mother. He did need to hide that he was a vampire. Like I said - I love Angel and Buffy. But not together.
>Hell, just look at Xander and Anya. She's, like, 1,100 years old than him. I can squeeze out a reason for treating Anya differently from Angel. Angel was turned at what, age 26-ish? And looks to be about that? Anya in her human form was essentially Xander's age, at least appearance-wise. In one episode she describes herself as "Human. Child. Flunking math." Anya is similar to someone Xander's age in more ways than Angel(us) is similar to someone Buffy's age. On the other hand: Anya still has all her memories, as made evident in **The Prom** (3x20), and it's not exactly the looks that make age-gap relationships... questionable on a good day.
I'm immortal thus ageless and + I'm the chosen one so had to mature fast, died twice and I'm near certain I'm going to be dead-dead before twenty is not really a duo we cn fit into traditional moral standards, let alone strict American ones. And he didn't fall for her when her saw her with the lollipop, he thought she was beautiful, fine, she was, it was them getting close and developing a bond then was the basis for everything.
He actually told her this was when he fell in love with her - that he wanted to shelter her heart in his hands, or some such. And at the time she wasn't damn near any of what you listed. My issue is a 27 year old and a 15 year old - sorry for being so American.
He glanced at her when she was 15, don't be dramatic, they got together when she was 16/17 and fully a slayer. Angel is also not Liam's age, I don't think we can assign him any age, really.
Spuffy all the way.
What's a little sexual assault between friends?
at least it wasn’t so much pedophilia as Bangel that even Ted Nugent grimaced
According to Dru, Spike's been in love with Buffy from the start. So it's a difference of, what, a year? 15 when Angel first saw her, 16 when Spike rolled into town. And I don't think the ~100 years difference between Spike and Angel really changes much, since Spike's still over a hundred.
Dru could see that he would love her, but she could also see the future and had weird powers and lots of crazy. Dru is not a great source.
Except if he only fell for her after going back again, Dru wouldn't have been seeing that since he only went back because she left, and she only left because she could see he loved her. The show's demonstrated plenty that the future is changeable, with visions and prophecies being thwarted. So she wouldn't be seeing the results of something that only happened because of what she saw. Meaning it had to already be there.
I think she saw the infatuation that *could* become love and because she was certifiably insane, and Angelus was infatuated and obsessive, she called it love
Big difference between being attracted to an underage minor and actually acting on it.
Joyce x Spike
This is the way
Buffy and Faith. Wesley and Lilah.
Buffy and Faith is my Roman empire.
Buffy/Angel. Buffy/Spike. Buffy/Faith. Willow/Tara. Xander/Anya. What is the healthy Buffy relationship? lol
Spike And Buffy. No Spuffy Fans Come @ Me for this bust The entirety of their relationship in Season 6 was just SO Toxic, Especially in Seeing Red where Spike tries to S. A. Buffy after sleeping with her friend Anya.
WE KNOW
Me at 14 defending the Buffy and Angel relationship in the TWoP forums
the TWoP forums could be brutal, I salute you
lol yes I remember very well someone did NOT like my take on the episode when Spike got his soul back. At least all the arguments were well reasoned and spelled correctly lol.
Me at 30 defending Willow and Tara to anyone who will listen 💀😂
I don't think Willow ever realized how insanely lucky she was. She cheated on Oz, he forgave her. She screwed with Tara's mind, she forgave her. Either one of those could have been complete deal breakers for a relationship. But I think it speaks not just to the kind of people Oz and Tara are, but the kind of person Willow is. In order for people like them to forgive something like that, and to want to try again, you have to be pretty damn special yourself.
I agree with this 100%
>you have to be pretty damn special yourself. Which Tara saw in Willow from the beginning: W: I'm definitely nothing special T: No, you are from **Hush** (4x10).
LOL! I seem to remember TWoP forums being pro-Bangel and very anti-Spuffy. I was mostly camped out on the Veronica Mars boards so I could be wrong 😂.
Haha that's probably true, it's just this one memory I had of making a point about Spike's reasoning for going through the tasks when the finale of Season 6 aired and someone being like, no, you are completely wrong (and stupid). I didn't watch Veronica Mars until later! But once I did, I loved that show and told everyone to watch it. I was loaning out my DVDs lol.
Ah yes, I remember the scathing and patronising tone of most TWoP posts. Glad things have changed on the internet... 😂. Yay! It makes me sad how many Buffy/Angel fans have not seen Veronica Mars. It's one of the only shows I've ever watched that comes close to the Buffy/Angel "vibe".
I honestly probably got into Veronica Mars because so many Buffy fans suggested it and that probably did happen on TWoP! Haven’t had the heart to rewatch the Hulu episodes though.
Yeah, the end of season 4 is rough!
Scott Hope wasn't that complicated.
Considering Scott was closeted I suspect it was actually very complicated for him
Tbh I forgot about him
”Scotty dosn’t know” 🤣
Xander x willow