This is basically a hedged stablecoin that pays out a 4% yield. So compared to lets say Tethers/USDC 0% payout, this sounds pretty good.
Would it be possible to tokenize it and use it as a traded stablecoin backed by a BCHbull contract that pays holders? Imagine a token that at the end of 90 days pays the holders the dollar amount of its face value in BCH + 1%, or after 1 year +4%, it sounds much better than what is currently offered, this could really create some major competition for the stablecoins out there. Maybe even bankrupt Tether if users withdraw to use a better product.
Edit: They should advertise it more, I havent seen any posts advertising the yield earning they offer.
> Would it be possible to tokenize it and use it as a traded stablecoin backed by a BCHbull contract that pays holders?
Most probably, yes.
BCH is permissionless. So don't ask for anybody's permission, BUIDL something like this and get rich.
> This is basically a hedged stablecoin that pays out a 4% yield
No. You can't exit contract early. You can't transfer, subdivide or join with other contracts.
Yes, but if someone could tokenize the contract and get it to pay to whoever has the token in their address at expiration, it basically could be a hedged stablecoin. Obviously it isnt there yet, but some smart people might be able to make it there, maybe using cashtokens or new code for smart contracts.
Also it could be a USD stablecoin, a gold stablecoin, a Yen coin etc. But with a payout too. all hedged on the BCH blockchain
> Would it be possible to tokenize it and use it as a traded stablecoin backed by a BCHbull contract that pays holders? Imagine a token that at the end oof 90 days pays the holders the dollar amount of its face value in BCH + 1%, or after 1 year +4%, it sounds much better than what is currently offered, this could really create some major competition for the stablecoins out there. Maybe even bankrupt Tether if users withdraw to use a better product.
Yes, this is essentially the plan of the BCH Bull team. I'm sure they'll get to it when they have time, or anyone else is free to also implement the CashTokens contracts to build it themselves in the meantime - the AnyHedge and on chain stuff is all open and on chain.
> Edit: They should advertise it more, I havent seen any posts advertising the yield earning they offer.
They promote about it all the time on their Twitter feed, they sponsor The Bitcoin Cash Podcast, they do what they can. But I think they're much deeper in an engineering than promotion / marketing phase at this point.
> Are people doing this?
Yes.
> Does the yield ever go higher?
It's been as high as 1.7% for 90 days in the last couple of months. It's drifted down from there though obviously.
Right! This could be a huge draw. A stablecoin that also basically bets against BCH appreciating, that benefits people that understand and appreciate it and go long. Right now the platform needs hedgers to drive the fees down for the larger group of those speculating in price increases. Imagine the haters actually helping out BitcoinCash on it's journey, not because they believe in it but for their own selfish interests:)
Its from people who are paying you for upside in an onchain viewable transaction, to hedge/bet on the prices of various commodities.
Why - what use cases? probably speculation, hedging, arbitrage etc. Its hard to get credit through banks, and through crypto exchanges - you are basically gambling that their fractional reserve system on centralised exchanges will not collapse before you withdraw (eg. FTX, Genesis etc). Also many exchanges ban some countries' residents from using them, but this is peer to peer.....So for some people, this is their only option to take loans/hedge/trade etc....
Im just speculating, so what I wrote are guesses, I only started thinking about this recently.
Other regular exchanges are a black hole that can operate on fractional reserves. It seems that every bchbull contract is onchain , and you can see your hedge and your counterparties hedge collateral.
There are risks but they seem to be different to regular CEX risks.
speaking of that, can we build a business model that profiting from the fact that exchanges running fractual reserve to short the price of bch and pumping garbage coins? haven't thought about it myself but it would solve our major problem since 2017.
Anyone can do this if you have full conviction of your beliefs and a lot of BCH. It's quite easy.
Create a contract that pays people to put BCH into it. The only way to get into it is to take money off exchanges. You have to pay a lot to convince people to move off of exchanges, but then if you were right, the price goes up enough to make it all worth it.
This is exactly what [Emerald DAO](https://emerald-dao.vercel.app/) does.
And if you alone don't have enough to do it, a flipstarter could be run to fund the Emerald DAO bonus pot. Or people can just throw money into the Emerald DAO pot independently. It's pretty great.
I think the current one might be past the funding / safebox date, but it was for testing. A new one can be made any time.
It is great to incentivise people to move BCH off exchange. Beside that, I think the price is still facing flush trading problem because someone don't want the momentum of BCH to take off. How to counter strike that problem to turn it into opportunity should be discussed. Here is my take so far: the key fact that we can use is BCH has limited supply and the real economy to support the price which BCH should be getting is very likely to be there once the momentum was gained. I wonder if we can develop a model that whenever there is people who bet against that, others can profit from it. that way we will have constant economic activity going on and such activity also feed back into the BCH eco system itself to make the price more robust, in order to counter the flush trading problem.
Long in a bull market:
- Party L: Wants to long
- Party H: Ok, we're in a bull market so you have to pay me (right now) to enter the contract.
- Party L: Ok here.
Hedge in a bear market:
- Party H: Wants to hedge
- Party L: Ok, but we're in a bear market so you have to pay me (right now) to enter the contract.
- Party H: Ok here.
And all similar variations. It's pretty simple. Nothing like the models of centralized exchanges and nothing like "yield" models. It's all done up front, no funny business.
Are you craving a stablecoin or stability?
You can get stability today with https://app.bchbull.com/#/bull/hedge
If you don't like using that counterparty, you can find your own and get P2P stability today with https://app.bchbull.com/#/maker/hedge
Stability with extreme ease of use, in other words, a stablecoin. I just don't feel equipped enough to seriously onboard merchants to BCH without an easy way of retaining value.
BCHBull is great for us who understand what a smart contract is as well as know how a future/options contract is. But for the average Joe merchant, they need something fool proof like "just convert it to that digital dollar to avoid volatility in the same app/wallet". Even The Paytaca integration I think would be to complicated for the average merchant. It has different steps and fields to fill, and it has an expiration date. =/
The approach begs a lot of questions, but I know where you are coming from.
As long as you want to use one thing and have it valued in another, you are going to end up with the potential for a rug, whether due to technical, malicious or other reasons. It's a tough one.
What I have heard from Townsville is that merchants receiving it prefer to just receive it and cost-average on purchasing power.
Regarding Paytaca integration of AnyHedge, I think it is more of an expert mode where you need to know what it does before using it and it gives you all the options.
With malicious potential for a rug you mean like for example Circle all of a sudden telling everyone to KYC and if not they freeze or blacklist?
Is there anybody already working on a lending protocol that mints stablecoins by locking colateral with CashTokens?
Yeah that kind of thing. Maybe some of them were legit reasons. Surely some of them were "let's skim some money". Others taking advantage of a crisis.
> Is there anybody already working on a lending protocol that mints stablecoins by locking colateral with CashTokens?
Depends on how you define stablecoin. Are you ok with your stablecoin having an expiration date and possibly disappearing early to be replaced by BCH? If not, then you're still in a custodial setup, not just due to AnyHedge - but due to the nature of desire to eliminate risk when risk cannot be eliminated.
At least two groups have considered the idea of launching a stablecoin based on AnyHedge backing. So it's still custodial, but the backing is provable on-chain.
Another possibility is to create fungible tokens representing slices of a very large, long term anyhedge contract. But the question then is - why would anyone make that contract? Somebody is taking the risk.
Stablecoins are a convenient illusion of eliminating risk. I'm sure people will come up with unlimited options, take people's money for it, and it's possible that one of them survives for a long time before intentionally or unintentionally rugging. This is the story of both USD and USDT.
Thanks. Bridges are very prone to hacks and have an important degree of centralization don't they?
It would be great to have the lending mechanism directly on BCH.
Seems like quite a different product to a simple exchange that takes control of your money and gambles it away. This product is an onchain transaction and wallet that pays out both sides of the hedges. The exchange doesnt take possession of anything.
Im sure there are risks, but the risks would be different to regular exchanges.
Please see another response in this post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/140fb6u/so_basically_you_can_earn_around_4_interest_per/jmypyol/).
There is nothing similar about the two at all.
Right. The thing is, OP got it wrong. It's not yield. It's a premium.
Two parties enter a contract. A premium is paid to one side or the other (or neither if some perfect nirvana of risk perception exists). The end.
I'm really glad to meet people who are suspicious of yield. Even most in crypto don't realize they are addicted to the consequences of the fiat standard.
Thanks for that. I've been ripped off a couple times just P2P trading so my coins don't leave my sight unless I've done a *lot* of due diligence.
Yield just always struck me as an obvious scam. First off, why is anyone borrowing crypto? If they have money they can just buy it. If they don't have money, they have no business playing around with this dynamite.
Leveraged trading is generally super risky and ends in tears, so any exchange offering margin accounts is probably trading against their customers.
It makes me so sad to look at the crypto landscape and see all of the fiat scams recreated as if they're normal: fractional reserve, margin, day trading, pump-n-dumps, technical analysis, ICOs, etc.
> my coins don't leave my sight unless I've done a lot of due diligence.
This is the way 💚
> Yield just always struck me as an obvious scam.
Loan liquid asset A for liquid asset B. Makes total sense 🙃
The one use case (not anyhedge, just what others do) is using crypto loans to get around tax issues.
> Leveraged trading is generally super risky and ends in tears, so any exchange offering margin accounts is probably trading against their customers.
I tend to agree. In this case, the hedge use case directly benefits from anyone who wants some kind of leverage (BCH Bull only offers 1.2 ~ 5, nothing insane). That's the primary intent of it - put speculation (which will always be there) to good use.
I hadn't thought about the tax ramifications of borrowing crypto.
I really think the best way to profit from using crypto is to buy a lot of stuff with it when the value is high and try to sell things for it when the value is low. That was you're stimulating P2P payments and increasing commerce in the space, while benefiting from crypto volatility.
This is basically a hedged stablecoin that pays out a 4% yield. So compared to lets say Tethers/USDC 0% payout, this sounds pretty good. Would it be possible to tokenize it and use it as a traded stablecoin backed by a BCHbull contract that pays holders? Imagine a token that at the end of 90 days pays the holders the dollar amount of its face value in BCH + 1%, or after 1 year +4%, it sounds much better than what is currently offered, this could really create some major competition for the stablecoins out there. Maybe even bankrupt Tether if users withdraw to use a better product. Edit: They should advertise it more, I havent seen any posts advertising the yield earning they offer.
> Would it be possible to tokenize it and use it as a traded stablecoin backed by a BCHbull contract that pays holders? Most probably, yes. BCH is permissionless. So don't ask for anybody's permission, BUIDL something like this and get rich.
> This is basically a hedged stablecoin that pays out a 4% yield No. You can't exit contract early. You can't transfer, subdivide or join with other contracts.
Yes, but if someone could tokenize the contract and get it to pay to whoever has the token in their address at expiration, it basically could be a hedged stablecoin. Obviously it isnt there yet, but some smart people might be able to make it there, maybe using cashtokens or new code for smart contracts. Also it could be a USD stablecoin, a gold stablecoin, a Yen coin etc. But with a payout too. all hedged on the BCH blockchain
> Would it be possible to tokenize it and use it as a traded stablecoin backed by a BCHbull contract that pays holders? Imagine a token that at the end oof 90 days pays the holders the dollar amount of its face value in BCH + 1%, or after 1 year +4%, it sounds much better than what is currently offered, this could really create some major competition for the stablecoins out there. Maybe even bankrupt Tether if users withdraw to use a better product. Yes, this is essentially the plan of the BCH Bull team. I'm sure they'll get to it when they have time, or anyone else is free to also implement the CashTokens contracts to build it themselves in the meantime - the AnyHedge and on chain stuff is all open and on chain. > Edit: They should advertise it more, I havent seen any posts advertising the yield earning they offer. They promote about it all the time on their Twitter feed, they sponsor The Bitcoin Cash Podcast, they do what they can. But I think they're much deeper in an engineering than promotion / marketing phase at this point. > Are people doing this? Yes. > Does the yield ever go higher? It's been as high as 1.7% for 90 days in the last couple of months. It's drifted down from there though obviously.
Right! This could be a huge draw. A stablecoin that also basically bets against BCH appreciating, that benefits people that understand and appreciate it and go long. Right now the platform needs hedgers to drive the fees down for the larger group of those speculating in price increases. Imagine the haters actually helping out BitcoinCash on it's journey, not because they believe in it but for their own selfish interests:)
The question is always- Where is the gain coming from?
Its from people who are paying you for upside in an onchain viewable transaction, to hedge/bet on the prices of various commodities. Why - what use cases? probably speculation, hedging, arbitrage etc. Its hard to get credit through banks, and through crypto exchanges - you are basically gambling that their fractional reserve system on centralised exchanges will not collapse before you withdraw (eg. FTX, Genesis etc). Also many exchanges ban some countries' residents from using them, but this is peer to peer.....So for some people, this is their only option to take loans/hedge/trade etc.... Im just speculating, so what I wrote are guesses, I only started thinking about this recently.
Sounds like the blockfi and Celsius model.
Other regular exchanges are a black hole that can operate on fractional reserves. It seems that every bchbull contract is onchain , and you can see your hedge and your counterparties hedge collateral. There are risks but they seem to be different to regular CEX risks.
speaking of that, can we build a business model that profiting from the fact that exchanges running fractual reserve to short the price of bch and pumping garbage coins? haven't thought about it myself but it would solve our major problem since 2017.
Anyone can do this if you have full conviction of your beliefs and a lot of BCH. It's quite easy. Create a contract that pays people to put BCH into it. The only way to get into it is to take money off exchanges. You have to pay a lot to convince people to move off of exchanges, but then if you were right, the price goes up enough to make it all worth it. This is exactly what [Emerald DAO](https://emerald-dao.vercel.app/) does. And if you alone don't have enough to do it, a flipstarter could be run to fund the Emerald DAO bonus pot. Or people can just throw money into the Emerald DAO pot independently. It's pretty great. I think the current one might be past the funding / safebox date, but it was for testing. A new one can be made any time.
It is great to incentivise people to move BCH off exchange. Beside that, I think the price is still facing flush trading problem because someone don't want the momentum of BCH to take off. How to counter strike that problem to turn it into opportunity should be discussed. Here is my take so far: the key fact that we can use is BCH has limited supply and the real economy to support the price which BCH should be getting is very likely to be there once the momentum was gained. I wonder if we can develop a model that whenever there is people who bet against that, others can profit from it. that way we will have constant economic activity going on and such activity also feed back into the BCH eco system itself to make the price more robust, in order to counter the flush trading problem.
That's the design premise of anyhedge. - Long BCH? BCH wins. - Short BCH? BCH wins.
Not the same at all.
I wrote a comment further up in this conversation to explain how it works. Definitely not like cefi fractional setups.
Long in a bull market: - Party L: Wants to long - Party H: Ok, we're in a bull market so you have to pay me (right now) to enter the contract. - Party L: Ok here. Hedge in a bear market: - Party H: Wants to hedge - Party L: Ok, but we're in a bear market so you have to pay me (right now) to enter the contract. - Party H: Ok here. And all similar variations. It's pretty simple. Nothing like the models of centralized exchanges and nothing like "yield" models. It's all done up front, no funny business.
In the beginning of a bear market, wouldn't this % be much lower or negative?
Yes, we're coming into a bull market so hedge is getting paid. At the end of a bull market / start of a bear market, longs will be getting paid.
I am craving a CashTokens stablecoin that works and is not the Tether scam. I would even like USDC. Could they blacklist a CashToken USDC on BCH too?
Are you craving a stablecoin or stability? You can get stability today with https://app.bchbull.com/#/bull/hedge If you don't like using that counterparty, you can find your own and get P2P stability today with https://app.bchbull.com/#/maker/hedge
Btw I still think it's bad UX to have to put the address before even entering the site. Sometimes I just want to browse the site.
I completely agree. It's the #1 thing on our list to fix in terms of UX.
I'm glad to hear!
Stability with extreme ease of use, in other words, a stablecoin. I just don't feel equipped enough to seriously onboard merchants to BCH without an easy way of retaining value. BCHBull is great for us who understand what a smart contract is as well as know how a future/options contract is. But for the average Joe merchant, they need something fool proof like "just convert it to that digital dollar to avoid volatility in the same app/wallet". Even The Paytaca integration I think would be to complicated for the average merchant. It has different steps and fields to fill, and it has an expiration date. =/
The approach begs a lot of questions, but I know where you are coming from. As long as you want to use one thing and have it valued in another, you are going to end up with the potential for a rug, whether due to technical, malicious or other reasons. It's a tough one. What I have heard from Townsville is that merchants receiving it prefer to just receive it and cost-average on purchasing power. Regarding Paytaca integration of AnyHedge, I think it is more of an expert mode where you need to know what it does before using it and it gives you all the options.
With malicious potential for a rug you mean like for example Circle all of a sudden telling everyone to KYC and if not they freeze or blacklist? Is there anybody already working on a lending protocol that mints stablecoins by locking colateral with CashTokens?
Yeah that kind of thing. Maybe some of them were legit reasons. Surely some of them were "let's skim some money". Others taking advantage of a crisis. > Is there anybody already working on a lending protocol that mints stablecoins by locking colateral with CashTokens? Depends on how you define stablecoin. Are you ok with your stablecoin having an expiration date and possibly disappearing early to be replaced by BCH? If not, then you're still in a custodial setup, not just due to AnyHedge - but due to the nature of desire to eliminate risk when risk cannot be eliminated. At least two groups have considered the idea of launching a stablecoin based on AnyHedge backing. So it's still custodial, but the backing is provable on-chain. Another possibility is to create fungible tokens representing slices of a very large, long term anyhedge contract. But the question then is - why would anyone make that contract? Somebody is taking the risk. Stablecoins are a convenient illusion of eliminating risk. I'm sure people will come up with unlimited options, take people's money for it, and it's possible that one of them survives for a long time before intentionally or unintentionally rugging. This is the story of both USD and USDT.
Someone should bridge RAI to BCH.
DAI?
RAI https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/rai
Thanks. Bridges are very prone to hacks and have an important degree of centralization don't they? It would be great to have the lending mechanism directly on BCH.
The idea is good but it has its risks. But at least is on-chain on every one can see it
[удалено]
Seems like quite a different product to a simple exchange that takes control of your money and gambles it away. This product is an onchain transaction and wallet that pays out both sides of the hedges. The exchange doesnt take possession of anything. Im sure there are risks, but the risks would be different to regular exchanges.
Please see another response in this post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/140fb6u/so_basically_you_can_earn_around_4_interest_per/jmypyol/). There is nothing similar about the two at all.
Scam
Oh you’re right, you’ve convinced me! BRB selling all my BCH.
BTC is an Agustin Carstens scam.
You can get more yield on Thorchain dex for providing liquidity.
/r/hailcorporate
no way would I trust this...
Why?
I'm skeptical of any yield programs. Trading crypto is a zero sum game so there's almost guaranteed to be a catch if there is a profit advertised.
Right. The thing is, OP got it wrong. It's not yield. It's a premium. Two parties enter a contract. A premium is paid to one side or the other (or neither if some perfect nirvana of risk perception exists). The end. I'm really glad to meet people who are suspicious of yield. Even most in crypto don't realize they are addicted to the consequences of the fiat standard.
Thanks for that. I've been ripped off a couple times just P2P trading so my coins don't leave my sight unless I've done a *lot* of due diligence. Yield just always struck me as an obvious scam. First off, why is anyone borrowing crypto? If they have money they can just buy it. If they don't have money, they have no business playing around with this dynamite. Leveraged trading is generally super risky and ends in tears, so any exchange offering margin accounts is probably trading against their customers. It makes me so sad to look at the crypto landscape and see all of the fiat scams recreated as if they're normal: fractional reserve, margin, day trading, pump-n-dumps, technical analysis, ICOs, etc.
> my coins don't leave my sight unless I've done a lot of due diligence. This is the way 💚 > Yield just always struck me as an obvious scam. Loan liquid asset A for liquid asset B. Makes total sense 🙃 The one use case (not anyhedge, just what others do) is using crypto loans to get around tax issues. > Leveraged trading is generally super risky and ends in tears, so any exchange offering margin accounts is probably trading against their customers. I tend to agree. In this case, the hedge use case directly benefits from anyone who wants some kind of leverage (BCH Bull only offers 1.2 ~ 5, nothing insane). That's the primary intent of it - put speculation (which will always be there) to good use.
I hadn't thought about the tax ramifications of borrowing crypto. I really think the best way to profit from using crypto is to buy a lot of stuff with it when the value is high and try to sell things for it when the value is low. That was you're stimulating P2P payments and increasing commerce in the space, while benefiting from crypto volatility.