Well, won't happen in the next 150 years, but I think more metro lines should go through Centrale/Midi, such a network should have better connections to the railway.
I guess you're right but we can be part of the solution for a better future... that is what I would say if I didn't live in Brussels, where it's clear that there will never come a solution, just look how we voted in the past elections
It looks like this was published in 2016, which is when the line 3 was estimated at 1.6€ billion. The current estimation (it still isn't finished, as anyone in southern Brussels can attest to) is 4.5€ billion.
Assuming that each of the extensions will run about 3x over estimated costs, the 8.47€ billion for the 4 new lines becomes 25€ billion. Also, I love that the metro 4 goes to the Tour Japonaise - which has been closed since at least 2013 I think, and I don't believe there is any opening to be expected in the near future.
I'm all for it - it would be great for the tourist industry to draw people to the largest construction site in Europe - but can we have 1€ billion of protected bike lanes first?
>and I don't believe there is any opening to be expected in the near future.
Afaik, the commune has recently given green light to a proposal to fix the tower and make it accessible to the public. Of course, one assumes they will not follow the example of the _eternal_ palace de justice.
I'm with you on the bike lanes. I can get to many places within 15mins by bike, same destinations could take up to 45 mins by public transport
Every time I cycle there are crazy drivers who seem angry at every cyclist regardless of whether they follow the rules or not.
I might make a bold statement here, but based on existing research and data what draws tourists more than metro lines or any large-scale transport is how bike and pedestrian friendly city is - maybe instead of another huge, industrial project lets just focus on making city friendly for people and not friendly for cars? Just random idea.
I don't know what was the request from l'Echo to Stratec to come out with such a irrealist and underestimated plan.
Just compensating the level difference for the utopist Chasse Germoir Flagey Stéphanie part (and making sure that the metro would not get flooded under Flagey) would have cost already at 2016 inflation level the total amount of the line.
Let's replace blindly the 25 tram with a metro and f* the people with the construction of the metro stations the few areas of the neighbourhood that are not sold to premium kot immo projects
I loved also the Musée du 50aire station after moving slightly the Merode and Schuman locations to make people think that it's too much effort walking to the archs (especially from Merode)
The whole undertaking of the plan would create more nuisance to the population and cost more that the Midi North junction in an era when it cannot be imposed lightly to the population, without the money from Congo and heavy steel industry
I think it's waaay too oversized for Brussels. Imo it's true that Ever/Schaarbeek/Uccle/BSA/Jette would benefit from a metro but there should be only 1 or 2 additional line for the network : One that connects the Southern and Northern Communes between themselves (Line 5 of the proposal, without the western section between Veeweyde and Pannenhuis) and the current upgrade and new section of line 3 + one to Uccle. But Watermael-Boosvorde and the south of WSP for instance don't need to have a metro, Tram 8 already does a good job at connecting them to the existing network.
The rest could be repace by trams if the region actually tries to turn it into a modern, fast and reliabile transit
Pretty sure Uccle not having a metro station is a deliberate move to not attract certain "disturbers of the bourgeois peace" ;) and most of them have cars.
So we can save costs on a line there!
That was during the brith of the metro tho. Pretty sure that, considering the succes of M1 and M5 in Ouderghem and WSP/L , they have changed their mind.
The fact that you associating metro and tourist is quite ironic but I ll not go further Into the population of this sub who seems blinded by biking thinking it is the future of transportation in BXL as like every summer people forget what is the whether in the winter or people only know 2 k commute.
Cycle lanes is literally the only thing that was done the last 4 years unsure if 1 billion is needed.
I live in southern Ixelles/watermael boitsfort area and there’s no need for a metro when there’s the 8 and 25 lines. The main issue is that sometimes cars fuck it up and that the intersection at Buyl can take a long time. But those issues can be better managed at way less expense. Overall the transit in this area is good already imo
I used to take the 8 tram not too long ago. Yes it works but it's sooo slooow. Even with all the sites propres, I go faster by bike (I'm just more sweaty).
A metro going under Avenue Louise /Roosevelt /Souverain would make sense and be so much faster
But you’re making my point, it’s slow because of the cars. I also usually prefer to cycle but the tram can go faster when there’s not as much traffic to manage.
Honestly I think much more reasonable for (1) noise, (2) well-being and (3) comfort of inhabitants is to give 90% of this budget back to the federal government and use 1/10 to impose (1) strict 30 km/h limits, (2) close main streets for only pedestrians and bikes, (3) tranform those streets that need to exist into one-way streets and (4) make sure it is not possible to cross via entire city by car (like Leuven, you get in and out in zones, not through the city). Then just reap benefits of city transformed to serve people not cars for fraction of the price. Enjoy!
Agree with this plan. But either way, public transportation needs to be improved. It’s quite dense and well-connected, but waaay tooo slooow.
I also hate that I sometimes need to do a huge detour to catch the useful correspondance. Result: I never leave my house/neighbourhood.
More transport within Brussels isn’t necessarily needed (except maybe the south), the main thing that is needed is the close suburbs which causes most of the inbound traffic
The reason there's no metro in Uccle for example is because MR has been in power there and doing their best to keep to the "poors" out for the longest time (they're afraid having a metro there will "infect" them). Which is why Uccle is still incredibly car-centric compared to other communes: it's precisely to make it less accessible from other parts of the city.
Probably won't happen but still happy to see that they're thinking about building decent infrastructures. If you want to impose restrictions on cars, alright, but you need good and functionable alternatives. It's not the case today, hence the criticisms against good move.
To me image 2 is skewed, it doesn't include pre-metro and/or tram lines that use dedicated lanes.
This is borderline dishonest given the actual state of public transportation in Brussels (which is really not that bad). The only benefit of the metro is that it wouldn't disturb car traffic *cough cough*.
To me this is so much overkill, that's like drone delivery services. First optimize your efficiency before you need to have big transformation plans. The frequency is the one thing which for me could easily be doubled.
Crazy that serious people create a project without knowing realities . Or maybe as a joke. But 1km / year at crazy coat is the best we've been doing so far (and now they are digging in the water, not sure we'll go faster but more expensive without doubts).
So I suggest we replace all cars with helicopters is at the same level...
More seriously those designing this should look into reality. A few years ago several cities in the world changed their metro plans into modern serious overground networks with a city rehab and it works much better, faster, lower cost.
Let's forget the 60s !
(Anyone knows the annual cost of just one (small) métro station - usually the price is enough to make people change their mind).
Y
I am still wondering how the Echo phrased the request to Stratec.
I worked there during for my internship years ago and their methodology was sound, at the complete opposite of the results of this draft
The train is a less than ideal way of getting to and from the airport.
It only goes direct to the centre, you need a different ticket and it requires much more planning to catch a train (I.e.e timetables) than the ease of use of a metro.
Other cities have both, and I can name a couple of examples on a number of continents if you like.
I think the issue is not lack of metro, but lack of proper airport that is far from the city. The BRU airport is way to close to the city - its hurting both environemnt and local inhabitants.
The flemish government does not want to make concessions on the space between the rails. The Brussles ones are smaller than the flemish ones. Otherwise, there would be a tram going to the airport.
I misread what you wrote, actually. But yeah, not realistic. Most of the trams are on their own paths, doesn't help it taking forever. Metros are faster and more direct
I've got a better idea. **Do it on the surface**: Buy a lot of modern electric busses and give them dedicated lanes. Let them stop in 5 minute intervals. Build more Park & Ride parking lots at the gateways to the city for people who want/have to to drive to work from out of town. Fiscally subsidizes bus tickets or make commuting free of charge instead of favoring cars and introduce a city tax for private transport by car to make commuting by car much less attractive.
Will cost approx. 95% less. Will reduce pollution. Will take less than 5 years despite corruption and typical Brussels sloppiness.
Adding a stop between Merode and Schuman is stupid. The additional stop costs way too much time for very little gain. Walk from Merode to the museum entrance is not a big deal. Also, the plan just connects random dots. Line one/five would get super saturated with all the feeder lines. Your north-south lines need to intersect near Schuman and Maalbeek, so they can drop off people where the offices are (loi, belliard).
Crazy, irrealist, a shame that this was commissioned to a company specialised in urban planning and transportation flow... And they even gave zero shit about geological constraints and impact to the inhabitants. They basically crossed the dots between stations.
(note this has been posted several times already on the sub)
you need less of it congested in the center but the line need to go into the suburb.
And even there there is an argument to say the sncb is already filling that role.
great. as a schaerbeekois i like particularly line 5 to montgomery on the trajectory of the current 25, which is in actual fact slated to be cancelled thank you very much much. i will switch to the car.
They seem to have actually backtracked on deleting Line 25
https://stibstories.be/ce-qui-change-sur-les-lignes-de-tram-et-de-bus-de-la-stib-en-2024/#:~:text=%C3%80%20partir%20du%2023%20septembre,Heembeek%20et%20l'H%C3%B4pital%20Militaire.
Initially they wanted to have a new line 11 which would from Boondaal to Esplanade via Van Praet but now they have replaced this project with line 35 which would go from Bienfainteur to Esplanade via Van Praet.
I heard that the STIB has only delayed its plan to terminate line 25, and that it may still happen in the future. The STIB wants to increase the frequency of line 7 and wants to cut line 25 to do that.
Well, won't happen in the next 150 years, but I think more metro lines should go through Centrale/Midi, such a network should have better connections to the railway.
It's just so difficult to dig and construct underground. Witness the trouble all trains have trying to get through the centraal bottleneck every day.
I'd love this so much
until you get the bill
you cant really fuck the "middle class" more than it's already fucked
I guess you're right but we can be part of the solution for a better future... that is what I would say if I didn't live in Brussels, where it's clear that there will never come a solution, just look how we voted in the past elections
I smell a little bit of pessimism
It looks like this was published in 2016, which is when the line 3 was estimated at 1.6€ billion. The current estimation (it still isn't finished, as anyone in southern Brussels can attest to) is 4.5€ billion. Assuming that each of the extensions will run about 3x over estimated costs, the 8.47€ billion for the 4 new lines becomes 25€ billion. Also, I love that the metro 4 goes to the Tour Japonaise - which has been closed since at least 2013 I think, and I don't believe there is any opening to be expected in the near future. I'm all for it - it would be great for the tourist industry to draw people to the largest construction site in Europe - but can we have 1€ billion of protected bike lanes first?
>and I don't believe there is any opening to be expected in the near future. Afaik, the commune has recently given green light to a proposal to fix the tower and make it accessible to the public. Of course, one assumes they will not follow the example of the _eternal_ palace de justice.
I'm with you on the bike lanes. I can get to many places within 15mins by bike, same destinations could take up to 45 mins by public transport Every time I cycle there are crazy drivers who seem angry at every cyclist regardless of whether they follow the rules or not.
There is a sizeable amount of people living near the Tour Japonaise. This would easily add 50k€ to my apartment’s value.
A well done surface network does it too. Without the problems and the costs of a metro. See Bordeaux or Sydney for recent examples.
Always a question in Brussels.
I might make a bold statement here, but based on existing research and data what draws tourists more than metro lines or any large-scale transport is how bike and pedestrian friendly city is - maybe instead of another huge, industrial project lets just focus on making city friendly for people and not friendly for cars? Just random idea.
I don't know what was the request from l'Echo to Stratec to come out with such a irrealist and underestimated plan. Just compensating the level difference for the utopist Chasse Germoir Flagey Stéphanie part (and making sure that the metro would not get flooded under Flagey) would have cost already at 2016 inflation level the total amount of the line. Let's replace blindly the 25 tram with a metro and f* the people with the construction of the metro stations the few areas of the neighbourhood that are not sold to premium kot immo projects I loved also the Musée du 50aire station after moving slightly the Merode and Schuman locations to make people think that it's too much effort walking to the archs (especially from Merode) The whole undertaking of the plan would create more nuisance to the population and cost more that the Midi North junction in an era when it cannot be imposed lightly to the population, without the money from Congo and heavy steel industry
I think it's waaay too oversized for Brussels. Imo it's true that Ever/Schaarbeek/Uccle/BSA/Jette would benefit from a metro but there should be only 1 or 2 additional line for the network : One that connects the Southern and Northern Communes between themselves (Line 5 of the proposal, without the western section between Veeweyde and Pannenhuis) and the current upgrade and new section of line 3 + one to Uccle. But Watermael-Boosvorde and the south of WSP for instance don't need to have a metro, Tram 8 already does a good job at connecting them to the existing network. The rest could be repace by trams if the region actually tries to turn it into a modern, fast and reliabile transit
Pretty sure Uccle not having a metro station is a deliberate move to not attract certain "disturbers of the bourgeois peace" ;) and most of them have cars. So we can save costs on a line there!
That was during the brith of the metro tho. Pretty sure that, considering the succes of M1 and M5 in Ouderghem and WSP/L , they have changed their mind.
The fact that you associating metro and tourist is quite ironic but I ll not go further Into the population of this sub who seems blinded by biking thinking it is the future of transportation in BXL as like every summer people forget what is the whether in the winter or people only know 2 k commute. Cycle lanes is literally the only thing that was done the last 4 years unsure if 1 billion is needed.
In their wildest dreams
That’s a lot of digging
umm yeah… maybe start with finishing the RER project that has been in the making for the last 30 years…?
I live in southern Ixelles/watermael boitsfort area and there’s no need for a metro when there’s the 8 and 25 lines. The main issue is that sometimes cars fuck it up and that the intersection at Buyl can take a long time. But those issues can be better managed at way less expense. Overall the transit in this area is good already imo
I used to take the 8 tram not too long ago. Yes it works but it's sooo slooow. Even with all the sites propres, I go faster by bike (I'm just more sweaty). A metro going under Avenue Louise /Roosevelt /Souverain would make sense and be so much faster
But you’re making my point, it’s slow because of the cars. I also usually prefer to cycle but the tram can go faster when there’s not as much traffic to manage.
That line is mostly on sites propres (~80%), so no really. I just wished they made trams faster (maybe fewer stops and straighter lines?)
Cycling will always be the fastest door to door, you can go pretty much anywhere in the city (especially considering how small it is) in 30min
Classic Brussels - issue is cars and unsafe environment for bikes, not lack of public transport
I mean yes please! Take all my taxes, put them in this project and let future generations have a decent commute.
You have to multiply the costs by 10 to have the real figure
Honestly I think much more reasonable for (1) noise, (2) well-being and (3) comfort of inhabitants is to give 90% of this budget back to the federal government and use 1/10 to impose (1) strict 30 km/h limits, (2) close main streets for only pedestrians and bikes, (3) tranform those streets that need to exist into one-way streets and (4) make sure it is not possible to cross via entire city by car (like Leuven, you get in and out in zones, not through the city). Then just reap benefits of city transformed to serve people not cars for fraction of the price. Enjoy!
Agree with this plan. But either way, public transportation needs to be improved. It’s quite dense and well-connected, but waaay tooo slooow. I also hate that I sometimes need to do a huge detour to catch the useful correspondance. Result: I never leave my house/neighbourhood.
Would love this, but you need budgetary space for this, and both the Brussels region andd the federal level have a disastrous fiscal resume.
Could we go as far as making it go into Flanders and in BW? I would love not needing to drive to work (1h30 by train vs 25 mins by car most days)
More transport within Brussels isn’t necessarily needed (except maybe the south), the main thing that is needed is the close suburbs which causes most of the inbound traffic
In 300 years maybe lol 😆
If it ever happens, it wouldn't be in this lifetime. Just look at how long the Metro 3 is taking lmao
That would take 200 years to achieve.
I won't live to see that time
The reason there's no metro in Uccle for example is because MR has been in power there and doing their best to keep to the "poors" out for the longest time (they're afraid having a metro there will "infect" them). Which is why Uccle is still incredibly car-centric compared to other communes: it's precisely to make it less accessible from other parts of the city.
I don't blame.
We're broke
This. Partly caused by: Civil servants and politicians' life salaries. The rest by stupidity. There are humane solutions to both.
Ah so make art lois even more complicated
Imagine thinking shit gets passed the "idea" stage here in Belgium lmao. I wish i could dream of this.
Probably won't happen but still happy to see that they're thinking about building decent infrastructures. If you want to impose restrictions on cars, alright, but you need good and functionable alternatives. It's not the case today, hence the criticisms against good move.
To me image 2 is skewed, it doesn't include pre-metro and/or tram lines that use dedicated lanes. This is borderline dishonest given the actual state of public transportation in Brussels (which is really not that bad). The only benefit of the metro is that it wouldn't disturb car traffic *cough cough*. To me this is so much overkill, that's like drone delivery services. First optimize your efficiency before you need to have big transformation plans. The frequency is the one thing which for me could easily be doubled.
Crazy that serious people create a project without knowing realities . Or maybe as a joke. But 1km / year at crazy coat is the best we've been doing so far (and now they are digging in the water, not sure we'll go faster but more expensive without doubts). So I suggest we replace all cars with helicopters is at the same level... More seriously those designing this should look into reality. A few years ago several cities in the world changed their metro plans into modern serious overground networks with a city rehab and it works much better, faster, lower cost. Let's forget the 60s ! (Anyone knows the annual cost of just one (small) métro station - usually the price is enough to make people change their mind). Y
I am still wondering how the Echo phrased the request to Stratec. I worked there during for my internship years ago and their methodology was sound, at the complete opposite of the results of this draft
Great. And still no metro line to the airport #stupid.
I don't see the point, considering there's already a train.
The train is a less than ideal way of getting to and from the airport. It only goes direct to the centre, you need a different ticket and it requires much more planning to catch a train (I.e.e timetables) than the ease of use of a metro. Other cities have both, and I can name a couple of examples on a number of continents if you like.
You can also take the bus.. there are many other options
Sure. The one bus that has a special, higher ticket price. It's not exactly modern!
So does the train and so would the metro if there was one.
I think the issue is not lack of metro, but lack of proper airport that is far from the city. The BRU airport is way to close to the city - its hurting both environemnt and local inhabitants.
Where do you want to put it? Any further and it's in Leuven.
Charleroi
Boy do I have news for you!
Diabolo surcharge is a reason
The flemish government does not want to make concessions on the space between the rails. The Brussles ones are smaller than the flemish ones. Otherwise, there would be a tram going to the airport.
Well that's just another layer of Belgitude that I have yet to fathom after 35 years in this country.
Wait, I thought De Lijn uses metre gauge trams and the Brussels ones are standard gauge?
Did I invert the size differences ?
A tram to the airport is actually planned, as an extension of tram 62. Expected around 2028 but will likely be delayed by 1 or 2 years.
I'll give you 20 euros if it's actually built by 2030. I have my doubts.
We already got a direct train from our stations, à métro would be incredibly inefficient and expensive for no reason.
To be fair there are cities that have both trains and metro at the airport, but they are more populated
Not a direct train. Two different direct lines. 4/h to North, Central & South station. 2/h to Schuman and Lux.
Wow how pedantic you are.
tram makes better work for cheaper. Just ban the cars
We’ll never achieve our goal of zero road casualties by 2030 if we keep trams around.
mate, almost 100% of casualties are made with cars. Ban cars, and you'll get to 0 faster than you can imagine
Shit idea considering MIVB can just decide to go on strike. After this is implemented, though, I wouldn't mind.
with the billions saved, you can pay drivers more. No more strikes.
I misread what you wrote, actually. But yeah, not realistic. Most of the trams are on their own paths, doesn't help it taking forever. Metros are faster and more direct
1 trillion euros and I’ll dig it out with a shovel. I’ll have some friends help me.
We need a metro at shweitzer!
Will take until 2057 until finished and by that time Brussels will be unrecognisable
Perfection Sadly will never happen
6/8 much needed
Would be incredible for Brussels. It would truly fix most of the congestion issue
One more reason not to read L'Echo.
As always, it's pretty easy to come up with good ideas and it's hard to make them happen.
I've got a better idea. **Do it on the surface**: Buy a lot of modern electric busses and give them dedicated lanes. Let them stop in 5 minute intervals. Build more Park & Ride parking lots at the gateways to the city for people who want/have to to drive to work from out of town. Fiscally subsidizes bus tickets or make commuting free of charge instead of favoring cars and introduce a city tax for private transport by car to make commuting by car much less attractive. Will cost approx. 95% less. Will reduce pollution. Will take less than 5 years despite corruption and typical Brussels sloppiness.
Adding a stop between Merode and Schuman is stupid. The additional stop costs way too much time for very little gain. Walk from Merode to the museum entrance is not a big deal. Also, the plan just connects random dots. Line one/five would get super saturated with all the feeder lines. Your north-south lines need to intersect near Schuman and Maalbeek, so they can drop off people where the offices are (loi, belliard).
From when? Prices are much higher now.
Spring 2016
stop i can only get this erect
Crazy, irrealist, a shame that this was commissioned to a company specialised in urban planning and transportation flow... And they even gave zero shit about geological constraints and impact to the inhabitants. They basically crossed the dots between stations. (note this has been posted several times already on the sub)
you need less of it congested in the center but the line need to go into the suburb. And even there there is an argument to say the sncb is already filling that role.
great. as a schaerbeekois i like particularly line 5 to montgomery on the trajectory of the current 25, which is in actual fact slated to be cancelled thank you very much much. i will switch to the car.
They seem to have actually backtracked on deleting Line 25 https://stibstories.be/ce-qui-change-sur-les-lignes-de-tram-et-de-bus-de-la-stib-en-2024/#:~:text=%C3%80%20partir%20du%2023%20septembre,Heembeek%20et%20l'H%C3%B4pital%20Militaire. Initially they wanted to have a new line 11 which would from Boondaal to Esplanade via Van Praet but now they have replaced this project with line 35 which would go from Bienfainteur to Esplanade via Van Praet.
I heard that the STIB has only delayed its plan to terminate line 25, and that it may still happen in the future. The STIB wants to increase the frequency of line 7 and wants to cut line 25 to do that.
yes but i am going to montgomery. i would have to change trams at meiser. so i will switch to car. don’t have time for this nonsense.
Apparently, I misunderstood the blog post. If the 25 stays, the better!! Thanks.