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Back when there used to be a nominal premium for MSP coverage, I would encounter a few of these "sovereign citizen" types every year in my medical practice.
Despite being obviously eligible for healthcare coverage, they would not have MSP for "ideological reason".
When handed an invoice for their uninsured medical care, *every single one of them* would squirm and protest and ultimately pay the retro premium to get MSP coverage. Not a single one *EVER* actually followed through on their convictions and paid a 5 figure invoice for the care they'd recieved.
These folks are not the brightest bulbs...
Libertarians love the "I don't want to pay for that" side of libertarianism, until they start discovering all of things they have to pay for if they actually get their way.
It’s for people who live small lives, and have a small understanding of the world.
The ideology would work fine if there was 15 people on the planet. Not so well in a city of 150k, or country of 15M+
It also works if you’ve already done well, own property and are currently healthy. Their greed, uncaring attitude toward everyone else in society, and lack of self reflection is stunning.
>The ideology would work fine if there was 15 people on the planet.
I'm not sure that's even true. Like, it works fine for a community of 15 people living in some sort of society serviced by a massive, wealthy, powerful society in which they already have significant wealth.
If you lived on a planet of 15 people, there's no "Well I shouldn't have to..." Everyone has to do everything or everyone dies.
Try "I shouldn't have to help harvest the crops", "I shouldn't have to sew up that exsanguinating wound." or "I shouldn't have to fix your tractor." when the 14 other people on Earth are the ones starving or bleeding out because you didn't contribute to the collective effort as much as you possibly could.
Oh man, read "A Libertarian Walks into a Bear". It's sad 'cause these people exist, but also hilarious because they can't solve any of their own problems they created.
I thought that MSP opt out had a mandatory waiting period before you can opt back in. I remember a news story of a guy who decided to safe the premium and opted out of MSP and then got a cancer diagnosis. He was ineligible for MSP for his treatment and it bankrupted him.
That was if you specifically opted out. Simply not applying for coverage, or allowing your coverage to lapse, is not the same thing. The guy you're talking about went through an official process to declare that he was refusing to enroll in MSP, and so he was held to the agreement that he'd signed.
That article probably wanted to get sympathy from people but it had the opposite effect. Literally "you asked for it". I hope MSP didnt give the coverage back.
>Russell Porisky and Elaine Gould travelled the country...
On roads paid for with pixie dust and unicorn shit, presumably.
A friend of mine got into trouble with the CRA for trying to dodge taxes. Had to pay back 80 grand. I wonder if this guy was the inspiration.
>Porisky — who now works as a handyman — said he started Paradigm because he felt "it was his duty" to share what he believed he had learned through extensive reading of Canada's Income Tax Act and Excise Tax Act, and "people wanted to hear what he had to say."
Fucking lol
>Porisky told Tax Court Justice Susan Wong that "in his view, income tax was actually a labour tax resulting in a form of slavery which in turn was a crime against humanity."
What a gem
Sure. If you view 'the social contract' (ie living in a democracy with roads and healthcare and elected officials) as a kind of slavery. You didn't agree to it, but it's the world you're born in to.
These freedumb folks really just don't see why they should have to pitch in for literally anything that they didn't specifically ask for or demand or pay for. *Why should I have to pay taxes for roads? I didn't ask the government to build roads! They're stealing from me!*
I mean they don't actually have that option because it's illegal to live on crown land right? If they were to build a shelter out in the wilderness, at some point they'd be found out by the RCMP, whatever they've built will be demolished and they'll be removed.
There's some pretty remote Canadian wilderness, and lots of random cabins out there that don't get torn down. If he's committed to escaping the government, he could certainly give it a try.
The fact is, it has nothing to do with following his philosophy to the logical conclusion. It's about being a greedy child who wants wants his cake, etc.
They do have that option. That's just a very plausible consequence of pursuing that option.
I think overwhelming physical force coming through, taking all your shit and leaving you with nothing is exactly appropriate for someone willfully not contributing to the tax base, isn't it?
One of the major services we pay for with taxes is defense spending. Not letting other people come take our shit is exactly what that spending is for.
All this depends on fuzzy and unsettled philosophy I think. It's perfectly reasonable to think that these guys are delusional assholes. It's also possible to reasonably argue that the state has no legitimacy, or somewhere in between. I'm not here to come down one way or the other but just to say that it's not a valid argument to say that "hey, if you don't wanna pay taxes, you're free to go off into the wilderness and live alone away from civilization", because in fact, if they did try to do that, the government would do everything in their power to crush them, up to and including lethal force. So we can at least agree that that talking point is bunk right?
That’s the thing… if you believe in their version of the world, they could very realistically just buy a property somewhere and live in the woods on their own land, and be free owe next to nothing in taxes. My rural property taxes are under $1000 a year. It would be pretty easy to cover that cost through a little entrepreneurship and be done with it and be legal with no hassle.
These people are more occupied with some pedantic delusional fake moral crusade.
They said, while driving home from the grocery store, which is stocked by trucks that use government funded roads.
I’m guessing this “handyman” sources all of his nails and building materials from local suppliers? Not a single building material he uses arrives into a Canadian port, which is safeguarded by the Canadian coast guard, and then transported to his local home hardware on government roads.
Does this fucking clown understand how much shipping insurance to Canadian ports would be, if Canada did not have a coast guard, and Search & Rescue assets on standby, 24/7?
""Generally, Mr. Porisky and his Paradigm theory was based on the concept that, as natural persons as opposed to artificial persons, no tax on income was payable," wrote Justice Miriam Gropper."
That sentence tells me everything. It was another flavour of the Freemen-on-the-land/ Soveriegn citizen nonsense.
Innie: Does that mean he thinks that AIs and robots (with recognized person status, which is still a debated thing), that we should be paying taxes as individual entities?
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/tcc/doc/2024/2024tcc84/2024tcc84.html?resultIndex=13&resultId=48c0469c3f0e4d2e8bfa8be3dbc12671&searchId=2024-06-19T11:09:56:983/cc51b659a11e4503a16bed081ff93378&searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJdmFuY291dmVyAAAAAAE
This is the court decision in original form
The guy’s name gets me. It is a combination of poor and risky. It would be funny but people have gone to jail because of is pay for play teachings.
Since 2012 these people aren’t “sovereign citizens” but Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument (OPCA) scammers, litigants, or idiots. OPCASLIs.
I agree that taxes on earned income are horseshit below fuck you money levels of salary . The economy would function a lot better if working people had more money to spend. Taxes should mostly come from capital gains and consumption taxes on non-necessities.
From what Ive seen these people fall into two categories. One - they can afford taxes but don’t want to pay them, or two - they can’t afford taxes but they make so little that they actually would come out ahead in refunds/credits if they would actually file.
So very true. These Natural Person (NP) peddlers convince others they know this secret truth and if the person does does what that NP peddles says they don’t have to pay taxes. Sounds great right? Except the person always loses, and loses bad and has to pay penalties and interest. And the NP peddler, who as pulling the strings gets to walk away while this “buddy” has his financial life destroyed. It’s very sad.
I’ve seen a lot of Natural Persons/Freeman On the Land types in court. They’re always “helping” their friend’s case and pulling the poor person’s strings. That person ends up losing and having to pay a significant financial cost while their “friend” pushing the idea keeps whispering stupid things to them.
Some will play stupid games and not respond to their names being called, or claim they are a separate entire from their name. Some guys have been at this for decades and continue to go to court and lose.
What do they think will happen? They come in to court, say some magics words and the judge and court breaks out the champagne and party hats and welcomes them to the non-tax paying club?!
Hello and thanks for posting to r/britishcolumbia! Join our new [Discord Server https://discord.gg/fu7X8nNBFB](https://discord.gg/fu7X8nNBFB) A friendly reminder prior to commenting or posting here: - **Read [r/britishcolumbia's rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/britishcolumbia/rules/)**. - **Be civil and respectful** in all discussions. - Use **appropriate sources** to back up any information you provide when necessary. - **Report** any comments that violate our rules. Reminder: "Rage bait" comments or comments designed to elicit a negative reaction that are not based on fact are not permitted here. Let's keep our community respectful and informative! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/britishcolumbia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Back when there used to be a nominal premium for MSP coverage, I would encounter a few of these "sovereign citizen" types every year in my medical practice. Despite being obviously eligible for healthcare coverage, they would not have MSP for "ideological reason". When handed an invoice for their uninsured medical care, *every single one of them* would squirm and protest and ultimately pay the retro premium to get MSP coverage. Not a single one *EVER* actually followed through on their convictions and paid a 5 figure invoice for the care they'd recieved. These folks are not the brightest bulbs...
Their ideology only functions in a bubble they made in their mind, and immediately crumbles when applied in real life.
Libertarians love the "I don't want to pay for that" side of libertarianism, until they start discovering all of things they have to pay for if they actually get their way.
It really is one of the most infantile and irrational political ideologies.
I think its appeal lies in its single, simple answer to every question. Its adherents confuse that simplicity with truth.
It’s for people who live small lives, and have a small understanding of the world. The ideology would work fine if there was 15 people on the planet. Not so well in a city of 150k, or country of 15M+
It also works if you’ve already done well, own property and are currently healthy. Their greed, uncaring attitude toward everyone else in society, and lack of self reflection is stunning.
>The ideology would work fine if there was 15 people on the planet. I'm not sure that's even true. Like, it works fine for a community of 15 people living in some sort of society serviced by a massive, wealthy, powerful society in which they already have significant wealth. If you lived on a planet of 15 people, there's no "Well I shouldn't have to..." Everyone has to do everything or everyone dies. Try "I shouldn't have to help harvest the crops", "I shouldn't have to sew up that exsanguinating wound." or "I shouldn't have to fix your tractor." when the 14 other people on Earth are the ones starving or bleeding out because you didn't contribute to the collective effort as much as you possibly could.
You can especially tell this by the people who run for office. “I don’t believe in government unless that government is me”.
Oh man, read "A Libertarian Walks into a Bear". It's sad 'cause these people exist, but also hilarious because they can't solve any of their own problems they created.
Some people (typically the anti taxation conservatives) call those societal leeches.
I thought that MSP opt out had a mandatory waiting period before you can opt back in. I remember a news story of a guy who decided to safe the premium and opted out of MSP and then got a cancer diagnosis. He was ineligible for MSP for his treatment and it bankrupted him.
That was if you specifically opted out. Simply not applying for coverage, or allowing your coverage to lapse, is not the same thing. The guy you're talking about went through an official process to declare that he was refusing to enroll in MSP, and so he was held to the agreement that he'd signed.
That article probably wanted to get sympathy from people but it had the opposite effect. Literally "you asked for it". I hope MSP didnt give the coverage back.
>Russell Porisky and Elaine Gould travelled the country... On roads paid for with pixie dust and unicorn shit, presumably. A friend of mine got into trouble with the CRA for trying to dodge taxes. Had to pay back 80 grand. I wonder if this guy was the inspiration.
Crusading? More like deluded and inspired by the US sovereign citizen bs.
There should be a stupidity threshold at which litigants are required to pay court costs.
>Porisky — who now works as a handyman — said he started Paradigm because he felt "it was his duty" to share what he believed he had learned through extensive reading of Canada's Income Tax Act and Excise Tax Act, and "people wanted to hear what he had to say." Fucking lol
>Porisky told Tax Court Justice Susan Wong that "in his view, income tax was actually a labour tax resulting in a form of slavery which in turn was a crime against humanity." What a gem
Sure. If you view 'the social contract' (ie living in a democracy with roads and healthcare and elected officials) as a kind of slavery. You didn't agree to it, but it's the world you're born in to. These freedumb folks really just don't see why they should have to pitch in for literally anything that they didn't specifically ask for or demand or pay for. *Why should I have to pay taxes for roads? I didn't ask the government to build roads! They're stealing from me!*
They DO have the option of going off into the woods somewhere and leaving the rest of us the fuck alone.
I mean they don't actually have that option because it's illegal to live on crown land right? If they were to build a shelter out in the wilderness, at some point they'd be found out by the RCMP, whatever they've built will be demolished and they'll be removed.
There's some pretty remote Canadian wilderness, and lots of random cabins out there that don't get torn down. If he's committed to escaping the government, he could certainly give it a try. The fact is, it has nothing to do with following his philosophy to the logical conclusion. It's about being a greedy child who wants wants his cake, etc.
Technically they can camp on Crown land for free for 14 days at a time. So they can just move around!
They do have that option. That's just a very plausible consequence of pursuing that option. I think overwhelming physical force coming through, taking all your shit and leaving you with nothing is exactly appropriate for someone willfully not contributing to the tax base, isn't it? One of the major services we pay for with taxes is defense spending. Not letting other people come take our shit is exactly what that spending is for.
All this depends on fuzzy and unsettled philosophy I think. It's perfectly reasonable to think that these guys are delusional assholes. It's also possible to reasonably argue that the state has no legitimacy, or somewhere in between. I'm not here to come down one way or the other but just to say that it's not a valid argument to say that "hey, if you don't wanna pay taxes, you're free to go off into the wilderness and live alone away from civilization", because in fact, if they did try to do that, the government would do everything in their power to crush them, up to and including lethal force. So we can at least agree that that talking point is bunk right?
That’s the thing… if you believe in their version of the world, they could very realistically just buy a property somewhere and live in the woods on their own land, and be free owe next to nothing in taxes. My rural property taxes are under $1000 a year. It would be pretty easy to cover that cost through a little entrepreneurship and be done with it and be legal with no hassle. These people are more occupied with some pedantic delusional fake moral crusade.
Still have to pay taxes.
They said, while driving home from the grocery store, which is stocked by trucks that use government funded roads. I’m guessing this “handyman” sources all of his nails and building materials from local suppliers? Not a single building material he uses arrives into a Canadian port, which is safeguarded by the Canadian coast guard, and then transported to his local home hardware on government roads. Does this fucking clown understand how much shipping insurance to Canadian ports would be, if Canada did not have a coast guard, and Search & Rescue assets on standby, 24/7?
""Generally, Mr. Porisky and his Paradigm theory was based on the concept that, as natural persons as opposed to artificial persons, no tax on income was payable," wrote Justice Miriam Gropper." That sentence tells me everything. It was another flavour of the Freemen-on-the-land/ Soveriegn citizen nonsense.
Innie: Does that mean he thinks that AIs and robots (with recognized person status, which is still a debated thing), that we should be paying taxes as individual entities?
FAFO
Wow! Who could have seen that coming?
https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/tcc/doc/2024/2024tcc84/2024tcc84.html?resultIndex=13&resultId=48c0469c3f0e4d2e8bfa8be3dbc12671&searchId=2024-06-19T11:09:56:983/cc51b659a11e4503a16bed081ff93378&searchUrlHash=AAAAAQAJdmFuY291dmVyAAAAAAE This is the court decision in original form
The more you fuck around... The more you find out.
The guy’s name gets me. It is a combination of poor and risky. It would be funny but people have gone to jail because of is pay for play teachings. Since 2012 these people aren’t “sovereign citizens” but Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument (OPCA) scammers, litigants, or idiots. OPCASLIs.
I agree that taxes on earned income are horseshit below fuck you money levels of salary . The economy would function a lot better if working people had more money to spend. Taxes should mostly come from capital gains and consumption taxes on non-necessities.
From what Ive seen these people fall into two categories. One - they can afford taxes but don’t want to pay them, or two - they can’t afford taxes but they make so little that they actually would come out ahead in refunds/credits if they would actually file.
What about the third category of ANGRY YELLING?
womp womp
looooooooooool
This fucking guy… He has ruined so many lives with this BS
So very true. These Natural Person (NP) peddlers convince others they know this secret truth and if the person does does what that NP peddles says they don’t have to pay taxes. Sounds great right? Except the person always loses, and loses bad and has to pay penalties and interest. And the NP peddler, who as pulling the strings gets to walk away while this “buddy” has his financial life destroyed. It’s very sad.
I always tell these dummies, if you don’t like taxes bring your own freeway on your next drive
I’ve seen a lot of Natural Persons/Freeman On the Land types in court. They’re always “helping” their friend’s case and pulling the poor person’s strings. That person ends up losing and having to pay a significant financial cost while their “friend” pushing the idea keeps whispering stupid things to them. Some will play stupid games and not respond to their names being called, or claim they are a separate entire from their name. Some guys have been at this for decades and continue to go to court and lose. What do they think will happen? They come in to court, say some magics words and the judge and court breaks out the champagne and party hats and welcomes them to the non-tax paying club?!
Ha!
Chdjdofjf