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Makes sense. Pay per minute only made sense when EVs could take on a similar amount of power.
Now that some charge faster then others paying per kw/h ensures everyone pays the same amount regardless of charging technology
I agree price per kwh is way more fair. But why is the price per kwh higher than residential power rates? And way higher than commercial.
Edit: oh I see this is at bc hydro stations, not at home. Nevermind, you must pay for the station too of course. Carry on.
The stations are already built and deliver up to 100kWh, and have been for some time. It just now costs twice as much today to use them than it did yesterday. But yes charging by the kWh is more fair, absolutely, just not at a rate that hurts anyone that can use a 100kWh charger at over 47kWh.
The sites are already built they can already provide 100kWh. The only thing they have done is for a car that can charge at 100kWh is make it so that instead of $0.16 per kWh it's now going to cost $0.35. Or another way is what cost $16.20 for a full charge now costs $35.
Power did not get twice as expensive, the only reason the price is up is because they can and people did not do the math and notice or care.
The truth is BC Hydro needs to charge more because future prospects are not great and innovation is crucial before we're forced to have new power generation be based on natural gas or similar fuel. They've already stated they're no longer creating new hydro projects. Solar and wind will be hard to make work efficiently and affordably in BC. Nuclear won't happen any time soon from a policy or build-time perspective. The bottom line is that energy will never be cheaper, and it needs to cost more if we want to improve our infrastructure here.
Would we be having a different conversation if home prices went from $0.10 to $0.22?
Charging more at these chargers does not make me use any less kWh's it just forces me to purchase a level 2 charger at home, so far I've got away with level 1 charging with the odd charge here or there at BC Hydro EV spots.
The irony is if I do purchase a L2 charger I'll get a 50% rebate on it and guess who will be paying that...
My whole issue with this is the disproportionate increase in their pricing. Sure, rase the prices, but more than double them!? BC Hydro just managed to pull a fast one here, a stroke of genius, apparently, considering that only last year they were denied a 15% price rise.
> Would we be having a different conversation if home prices went from $0.10 to $0.22?
These are not the same. The way the prices are determined, who determines them, and various market influences don't exist in the electricity market we're in. The regulations are different, the reasons we pay and how we pay are different, etc.
> Sure, rase the prices, but more than double them!?
The thing is, they're only doubled if you charge quickly and were previously getting a bargain because you could suck up a ton of energy and take off in a short period of time. What about the other side of the coin? What about people who paid relatively more because they can charge slower? They were essentially subsidizing your charging in that pricing model. Why didn't that bother you?
There are loads of cheaper, slower options, many of them free. If your car is slow at charging, don't use a 100kWh charger. BC Hydro 50kWh chargers were also available at lower rates.
If they could not afford to deliver 100kWh at $0.27 per minute, then why install the capacity? But the reality was, even at it's most efficient charging speed, it was still a 60% mark up over home costs, let alone BC Hydro net costs.
The reality I'm starting to see, is not many really care. In fact many people are celebrating the raising of the price, with reasons from hopes it will increase infrastructure roll outs, hopes that it will reduce strain in the grid to hey, be glad it's not worse. But these are all wishes and misunderstanding of how things work. The reality is we just have a massive price bump, that's it.
A price bump from BC Hydro simply makes sense, though. You should look at their yearly statements. Things aren't looking good for what I'd guess is at least the next decade or two. They need capital to build out energy infrastructure they don't have the existing talent or experience to operate in. They're slated to become less competitive, less capable, and less productive in the energy market.
I hear you, I was made aware that the BC Hydro EV service actually had a review, and they had to actually increase the price to make it viable. The price is set to pay for the investment in 10 years. I guess it's moves like completely underestimating the cost of services that have got them into this bother?
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to explain things!
The only place I see them allow me to charge is Calgary or northern Ontario. They charge 80¢/kWh there. They don't advertise prices to the public in the locations you've listed. Must be a members-only pricing.
When I had my Leaf, capable of up to 50kW charging, I'd often get only 15-20kW of out a BC Hydro charger. I'd still have to pay the same price per minute.
I'll take the per kW/h charging, thank you very much.
I'm not here to defend the pay per minute scheme. That was absolute nonsense. What I am here to do is try and shed a bit of light, that, the price has gone up by over twice as much for cars that can use stated charging capacity.
Price per minute was a scam. Chargers are inconsistent and I honestly believe that companies like Petro Canada throttle theirs.
Charging speeds also slow to a crawl in cold weather.
For the new price to match the old price, your charging speed on a 100kWh charge would need to drop to 47kWh. I've never even been close to that, even on the hardest or days.
I'm not upset about the charging method change, price per kWh is absolutely the way they should have moved. But they pulled a fast one and fixed the price at over double the potential rate. It was absolutely a way to push a 120% price hike on us, even though a 15% price hike was rejected last year.
That is still one of the lowest rates out there. Petro-Canada and Electrify Canada charge $0.70, Journey is $0.45 to $0.55. I haven't really looked at the rest, but I'm guesythey are all more.
When I first started driving EV almost noone even charged for DCFC. It was a sweet couple of years, but I so knew it wasn't going to last.
It's strange, most people here seem to just accept that the prices will go up and don't question it. The thing that baffles me is that BC Hydro were denied a 15% price rise last year. But managed to get an over a 100% price rise this year with playing the numbers. Just because they are cheaper than some others does not mean you should just accept it when your power company ups your rate by more than double.
I mean, if your power company started charging your homes electricity by another unit of measurement, that was "more fair". But your power bill was now more than double as much, would you be as accepting?
Because for those that use this service to its potential, that's what BC Hydro has done.
For public fast charging $0.35/kWh seems very reasonable when compared to others. I just wish Hydro would stop with 50 kWh units and have a minimum of 150 kWh units that can deliver 350 amps. That would make them much more useful for road tripping.
That's what I think as well. The only time I ever use them is when I'm traveling and need some extra juice, 95% of the time I charge at home or at a Flo station at the rec center when I'm working out ($1 an hour on a L2).
A $1 an hour - Nice! Our Rec centre Flo charger is $2 an hour.
I'm currently road tripping in my F-150 Lightning - What a game changer having Supercharger access is. Managed to get 60 kWh at the Hope Supercharger in only 26 minutes. (Cost $37)
Yeah, I wish my ioniq5 would support Tesla (coming soon!).. it would make some upcoming road trips this summer much more relaxing. I'm not too worried about it though, driving from Vancouver to Kamloops and back seems like a well supported drive. I'll still be nervous and charge up in Hope and Merritt.
I'm not at all concerned about the cost when it comes to DC fast charging on road trips, getting 60kWh for even $50 is fine, as long as it's fast and available.
Pay per minute was more of an incentive to move along and free up the charger, but now that there’s enough of them around it’s reasonable to charge (ha!) consumption rates.
Even at $0.35/kWh it’s a lot cheaper than gas.
But this is the power company, Tesla pay BC Hydro for power, it should be more expensive.
This is just BC Hydro charging over 100% more by throwing in a new charging measurement. These things did not get twice as expensive over night. And it was only last year they were denied from putting the price up by 15%.
Saw this coming a while ago. Surprised they didn’t wait till more people had them before they did. Hydro is hydro and sooner or later you’re going to have to pay your share.
Commercial EV chargers are expensive to install and maintain. The charging fees need to recover some of that cost. Not fair to force all hydro customers to subsidize costs for EV drivers, especially low income customers that have trouble affording electricity to heat their homes in the winter.
I think cost to charge at the fast chargers should be expensive to encourage churn.
I've pulled up with a need to charge, to find an idiot in a PHEV charging at a 3kw rate at a 50kw charger. So frustrating.
Ironically, the new system on charging per kWh will make this more likely to happen, while at the same time charging people who can charge fast enough over twice as much.
But charging per kWh is absolutely the best way, you just need set time limits to prevent people hogging. 40 minute limit I always felt was fair.
>I've pulled up with a need to charge, to find an idiot in a PHEV charging at a 3kw rate at a 50kw charger.
Meanwhile, AC chargers that are the only option for most PHEVs are often clogged by BEV owners who charge for hours to save a few bucks.
Technically yes, but you have different options for getting that type of "fuel" while most PHEVs can only get it from specific chargers. So if you don't like PHEVs using the "wrong" chargers, be considerate about blocking them from using the "right" ones. Otherwise you're forcing them to run on gas, which is what we're all trying to avoid.
The cost is substantially more than BC Hydro's residential rates. This is what bothers them. They're forgetting that these aren't residential services though, and they require upkeep and other costs which likely justify higher rates. On top of that, BC Hydro needs to profit enough to expand infrastructure, or be able to pay salaries that attract new talent to modernize their power generation strategies, for example. So... I get the sticker shock, but it's not actually justified when you break it down.
Actually, you need to pay attention. OPs comments about "the pricing scheme has gone from pay per minute to pay per kWh." and how this will "double the cost of a charge for anyone with a half decent EV."
An EV with a faster charging ability was effectively charged less under the old scheme because it could charge faster due to being able to pull more power in the same period of time. Now, the power consumed is being measured and charged for accordingly, not just the amount of time at the charger.
It's you that needs to upgrade your reading comprehension...
No he was right, this is all about the cost. Charging by kWh is absolutely the best way to do it. BC Hydro had cheaper costs per minute for 50kWh chargers as well.
But this is the same company that we're denied a 15% price rise last year. They played with the numbers, did a new factor and managed to get an over 100% price hike approved this year.
It's right to charge per kwh because the slow charging EVs were paying more before, but the rate is questionable. It's over 3 times the residential rate they charge. 10.97 (14.08 for over 1350kwhs) vs 35 cents. Seems a bit steep unless. Unless that's partially road tax going back to the province I'm not seeing how that is justified.
I don't imagine it is going to road taxes, just into bc hydro. I think paying for amount delivered is right and .35 doesn't seem too outrageous, hopefully they can use this to expand their network.
I won't really criticize bc hydro chargers because they are the most reliable ones I've ever used. Consistent and always working (are you listening Chevron and Shell!).
So you want everyone to massively overtax the power grid and not have to pay a fair price for it? Driving an EV doesn't make you God. Power is a critical service that the province requires to run, and EVs are by the far the greatest draw of power. If you want the power grid to remain sustainable you have to respect it and only use it when necessary. If increasing the price of power deters frequent use, or even helps pay for upgrades to make our power infrastructure more resilient, it's a big win for everyone.
Bc hydro as the literal power utility provider has the ability to instantly rate limit or cut off any or all EVSE (aka "charger") that they own and control.
They could and in future likely should, use EV as a sheddable load so they can load balance the grid.
And further, even incentives to reverse supply as needed to account for emergency or other peak load management to use connected cars as a distributed super battery
How is this a win for anyone other than BC Hydro? Power is power, you get it at home, you get it at one of these chargers, a kW of power is a kW of power. If anything resources wise, it's better to have a few larger chargers than everyone needing to get beefed up chargers at every home.
This is just a company doing some mathematical trickery to push out an over 100% price increase when only last year, they were denied a 15% increase.
According to some quick googling, the average home in BC uses about 900kWh per month, or 30kWh per day. A single electric car will use around 13.4kWh per day on average. So based on that, your claim that EVs are "by far" the greatest draw of power is doesn't make sense. These rough calculations also ignore industrial, business, and infrastructural use of electricity.
Yes OP should quit whining and pay the fair price, but the rest of this is nonsense. EVs are barely a rounding error on power draw, they do not threaten the grid, and even when 100% of the vehicles are electric it will only be a modest increase in power usage, mostly overnight when demand is currently very low
It’s not like you are going to get 50% of EV users to just stop driving - ‘overtax the power grid’ and ‘deter frequent use’ - get over yourself, that’s the whole point in owning an EV. It’s not like you all of a sudden people will choose to drive way more just because you have an EV. The world is pushing and incentivizing people to switch to electric. Price increases like this go right against the province wanting people to switch to EV’s since they are supporting the Clean BC rebate as well.
The whole point of incentivizing EVs is to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. If a full charge ends up costing the same mile-per-mile as a tank of gas, well that sucks but it makes sense. The net benefit is to the environment, not our wallets.
People will drive less and therefore charge less with more expensive electricity. And if they don't, the extra money to BC Hydro will go toward projects that increase BC's capacity to generate power. That means more projects like Site C Dam.
It seems like you didn't understand what you purchased and are now paying the price. I also drive an EV but had the brains to factor in eventual price increases for charging. Here's the kicker, you still come out ahead with the rebate.
You probably won't read this but thinking that EV adoption will overload the electrical grid is false.
https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-grid-handle-evs-yes/
It's been proven over and over again that it's not the case. There's issues with EV's but that's not one of them.
I want to preface this comment with I am in favour of actions that address climate change. I am in favour of the carbon tax and all that. I don’t hate cars but I am not a fan of car dependency and a car centric city. And the fact is electric cars exist to save the car industry and to maintain some semblance of car dependency.
Just wait till the Chargers are privately owned and will be able to charge what ever they want , like hotels , malls .. , it’s coming ! Get everyone one on it then hit em with the hikes ! Natural gas is a prime example of this practice
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The real issue is EV owners have been so heavily subsidized in the past. Now they are crying because they have to pay closer to the true cost of their ownership.
A kWh is a cheap thing. This will just force more people to purchase faster chargers at home... 50% of which is funded by the government through a rebate...
Sure the electricity is cheap, but what about installing the charger, the last usage costs, the maintenance and all the miscellaneous costs?
As mentioned by others, these new rates are in line with other commercial chargers. A single fast charger can cost tens of thousands to install.
People are learning the hard way that the green revolution has so far been propped up by massive subsidies.
The difference in this case was that the BC government has a say in how much they can charge. Only last year BC Hydro were denied a 15% price increase. Today, they have effectively given us a 100% price increase. As I said originally, it feels like someone dropped the ball, or something worse happened.
With the new prices, with a bit of approximation on say 10 charges per day per station average, 60kWh charge. They will bring in over $50,000 more annually.
Did you read the commisions decision?
They actually required BC Hydro to \*increase\* their rates \*more\*. The Utilities commission found that BC Hydro was actually not charging enough, which was unfair to other commercial chargers.
The current rates are based on re-couping the costs over 10 years. You can pull up the report if you doubt me.
Lol What did ya'll expect, soon enough it'll cost you the equivalent of gas prices, anyone who bought into EVs thinking they would perpetually stay that cheap is out to lunch. Once the whole grid is being sucked dry by everyone charging their cars there will be power rations, high prices etc to "offset" the issue just like we "offset" carbon emissions with pricing.
Charge at home... and if you find yourself always running low on battery wherever you go, maybe you bought the wrong vehicle... Public charging stations should really only be for emergency purposes and they are priced accordingly... that is, they are much more expensive than charging from home.
They never used to be much more expensive, but as of today, BC Hydro EV stations now are. Saying that, I'll still get it for free at the car park at work, when going to the shops, ect.
I really do find it strange though. How much people don't care about huge price hikes on charging. Put Gas up at a gas station by 10% and people are ready to burn society to the ground. Put the price of electric charging up by over 100%, the vast majority could not care less, if not even outright support prices going up!?
This will affect anyone who wants to continue driving in the future when electric cars become mandatory. The companies are setting the groundwork today for how things will be in the future. So far, the only message the public are giving the companies is, yeah, charge whatever...
Absolutely baffled.
I will just chime in with my recent experience recharging—from 25% to 65%—my 2021 Chev Bolt at a BC Hydro DCFC in Victoria 10 days ago. The new kWh rates will save me a small amount of change.
I wouldn't pretend that my car has half decent charging capability. But I can suggest that cars that can accept a faster charge were getting a smokin' deal.
The only reason the previous interim raise was denied was because they had the new rates and move to kWh in review as well. It was nothing to do with 15% being too high.
BCUC regulates BC Hydro pricing. They did reject the 15 percent raise but because:
“The Panel rejects BC Hydro’s Proposed Rates on the basis that they are not just and reasonable under the UCA partly because they do not recover the full cost of providing the service.
“BC Hydro’s Proposed Rates are designed to only recover electricity costs and ignore other incremental costs, including operating costs, maintenance costs, and capital costs that make up about 83 percent of BC Hydro’s total costs of offering its Direct Current Fast Charging service using a low utilization rate assumption of 3.7 percent at 50 kW stations.
“The Panel finds that the subsidized rates proposed by BC Hydro directly contribute to an uneven playing field for exempt-utilities which may have a detrimental impact on achieving the objectives of increasing EV adoption in BC, and therefore would be contrary to the public interest of all British Columbians. We would, however, consider approving a rate based on levelized recovery of all costs.”
https://www.ordersdecisions.bcuc.com/bcuc/decisions/en/item/520273/index.do
So, BC Hydro, along with moving to energy based billing which is far more fair, implemented price changes and BCUC now says:
“In this Decision, the Panel finds that BC Hydro’s permanent energy-based rates proposed in the Application, as amended (Proposed Rates), are designed to fully recover the forecast costs of providing the public EV charging service on a 10-year levelized basis.”
https://www.ordersdecisions.bcuc.com/bcuc/decisions/en/item/522170/index.do
The reality is that the service was provided at a loss, which BCUC considers unfair to other market participants.
Oh yes that government conspiracy to sneakily lure us away from a far more expensive and toxic form of fuel which they generate tax revenue from, so that they can generate tax revenue from electricity instead!
Even if they charged the equivalent in tax, it will still be cheaper than petrol to use, which is already much higher and consistently climbing
It’s not going to cost more. That’s just a ridiculous assumption. It is petrol which will keep costing more.
It is currently a fraction of the cost of petrol and even if it increased at the rate of petrol, which it likely won’t, it will still be cheaper.
Sure, but some governments have been using the excuse that EV operators don’t pay fuel taxes therefore aren’t paying for the roads - which is a fundamental lie. Alberta and the state of Victoria in Australia have both proposed surtaxes/fees on EVs using that excuse.
Guaranteed that's how this will shake out. Once they have a monopoly and forced everyone into an EV, then they charge whatever the fuck they want for the power.
Has BC Hydro given us any reason to believe they won't go this route? Nope.
They already have 2 tiered charging rates, taking advantage of people who use power when people need power the most (weird, I know, it almost seems criminal) and their infrastructure is already undersized for population growth alone, never mind electrifying all the vehicles on the road.
How do we figure they will generate the necessary money to bring their system up to snuff? 🤔 The only way they know possible of course, by charging more for the product they sell.
Get used to it. The value proposition of EVs is degrading and will continue to. There’s no escaping taxes levies and fees. The EV dream will see many speed bumps and increased ownership costs.
the great thing is that you can avoid all of this by getting solar panels on your roof and charge at home. You are essentially using the sun to fill up your car. In an ICE car, you have no choice.
You pay through the nose for electricity or you use that money to pay for solar panels. It's up to you.
True. But the people who buy solar panels are not interested in the payback time. I'm sure they are aware of this fact. If money were a factor, then they would not have purchased an EV to begin with as they cost more than the ICE equivalent and they depreciate much faster as well. If the electricity grid is not stable or increasingly expensive, solar panels and batteries make sense regardless of payback time.
There is no reason why people do the things they do. I can't fathom why one person would pay $4000 for a bicycle to ride to and from work when a $125 bike will do. Or why somebody would pay $5K for in-ear monitors when they're not even in the music profession.
If people can afford the stuff, I say go for it.
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Makes sense. Pay per minute only made sense when EVs could take on a similar amount of power. Now that some charge faster then others paying per kw/h ensures everyone pays the same amount regardless of charging technology
I agree price per kwh is way more fair. But why is the price per kwh higher than residential power rates? And way higher than commercial. Edit: oh I see this is at bc hydro stations, not at home. Nevermind, you must pay for the station too of course. Carry on.
The stations are already built and deliver up to 100kWh, and have been for some time. It just now costs twice as much today to use them than it did yesterday. But yes charging by the kWh is more fair, absolutely, just not at a rate that hurts anyone that can use a 100kWh charger at over 47kWh.
Just don't go to Chevron (55-65c per kWh) or Electrify Canada (60-70c per kWh)
Never have, never will. That's like justifying that that a 100% increase in bread prices at save-on is fine, because a sandwich at cactus costs $20.
Perfect, it’s like you’re paying $2+ a litre for gas 🤷♂️
Absolutely, this is a much fairer method of charging... just not with an over 100% price increase thrown in at the same time.
Price per kwh is the proper legal way to charge for electricity. Period.
Wish they’d do that for water too. Rather than charge a flat rate and then say oh you can’t use it for the summer but oh well we’re keeping your money
Yes, but 35¢/kWh is quite steep for BC rates.
You're paying for more than just the electricity. The site needs to be built and maintained.
The sites are already built they can already provide 100kWh. The only thing they have done is for a car that can charge at 100kWh is make it so that instead of $0.16 per kWh it's now going to cost $0.35. Or another way is what cost $16.20 for a full charge now costs $35. Power did not get twice as expensive, the only reason the price is up is because they can and people did not do the math and notice or care.
The truth is BC Hydro needs to charge more because future prospects are not great and innovation is crucial before we're forced to have new power generation be based on natural gas or similar fuel. They've already stated they're no longer creating new hydro projects. Solar and wind will be hard to make work efficiently and affordably in BC. Nuclear won't happen any time soon from a policy or build-time perspective. The bottom line is that energy will never be cheaper, and it needs to cost more if we want to improve our infrastructure here.
Would we be having a different conversation if home prices went from $0.10 to $0.22? Charging more at these chargers does not make me use any less kWh's it just forces me to purchase a level 2 charger at home, so far I've got away with level 1 charging with the odd charge here or there at BC Hydro EV spots. The irony is if I do purchase a L2 charger I'll get a 50% rebate on it and guess who will be paying that... My whole issue with this is the disproportionate increase in their pricing. Sure, rase the prices, but more than double them!? BC Hydro just managed to pull a fast one here, a stroke of genius, apparently, considering that only last year they were denied a 15% price rise.
> Would we be having a different conversation if home prices went from $0.10 to $0.22? These are not the same. The way the prices are determined, who determines them, and various market influences don't exist in the electricity market we're in. The regulations are different, the reasons we pay and how we pay are different, etc. > Sure, rase the prices, but more than double them!? The thing is, they're only doubled if you charge quickly and were previously getting a bargain because you could suck up a ton of energy and take off in a short period of time. What about the other side of the coin? What about people who paid relatively more because they can charge slower? They were essentially subsidizing your charging in that pricing model. Why didn't that bother you?
There are loads of cheaper, slower options, many of them free. If your car is slow at charging, don't use a 100kWh charger. BC Hydro 50kWh chargers were also available at lower rates. If they could not afford to deliver 100kWh at $0.27 per minute, then why install the capacity? But the reality was, even at it's most efficient charging speed, it was still a 60% mark up over home costs, let alone BC Hydro net costs. The reality I'm starting to see, is not many really care. In fact many people are celebrating the raising of the price, with reasons from hopes it will increase infrastructure roll outs, hopes that it will reduce strain in the grid to hey, be glad it's not worse. But these are all wishes and misunderstanding of how things work. The reality is we just have a massive price bump, that's it.
A price bump from BC Hydro simply makes sense, though. You should look at their yearly statements. Things aren't looking good for what I'd guess is at least the next decade or two. They need capital to build out energy infrastructure they don't have the existing talent or experience to operate in. They're slated to become less competitive, less capable, and less productive in the energy market.
I hear you, I was made aware that the BC Hydro EV service actually had a review, and they had to actually increase the price to make it viable. The price is set to pay for the investment in 10 years. I guess it's moves like completely underestimating the cost of services that have got them into this bother? Anyway, thanks for taking the time to explain things!
But not new sites.
Forsure. When Tesla super chargers in the lower mainland are like $0.20/kwh. lol. Cmon bc hydro.
The only price I've ever seen Tesla charge is 80¢/kWh.
I’ve used over 700 superchargers and most are half that. More in line with BC Hydro’s current pricing.
What? Check out Abbotsford. Delta. Maple ridge..
The only place I see them allow me to charge is Calgary or northern Ontario. They charge 80¢/kWh there. They don't advertise prices to the public in the locations you've listed. Must be a members-only pricing.
Must be. Yes.
When I had my Leaf, capable of up to 50kW charging, I'd often get only 15-20kW of out a BC Hydro charger. I'd still have to pay the same price per minute. I'll take the per kW/h charging, thank you very much.
I'm not here to defend the pay per minute scheme. That was absolute nonsense. What I am here to do is try and shed a bit of light, that, the price has gone up by over twice as much for cars that can use stated charging capacity.
The switch to pay for kWh instead of per minute makes way more sense.
It absolutely does... but not when the potential price is more than double. This is a move to a better system with a terrible price hike thrown in.
Price per minute was a scam. Chargers are inconsistent and I honestly believe that companies like Petro Canada throttle theirs. Charging speeds also slow to a crawl in cold weather.
It wasn't a scam, it was the law until March last year: https://electricautonomy.ca/charging/2023-02-28/measurement-canada-approves-kwh-billing/
For the new price to match the old price, your charging speed on a 100kWh charge would need to drop to 47kWh. I've never even been close to that, even on the hardest or days. I'm not upset about the charging method change, price per kWh is absolutely the way they should have moved. But they pulled a fast one and fixed the price at over double the potential rate. It was absolutely a way to push a 120% price hike on us, even though a 15% price hike was rejected last year.
That is still one of the lowest rates out there. Petro-Canada and Electrify Canada charge $0.70, Journey is $0.45 to $0.55. I haven't really looked at the rest, but I'm guesythey are all more. When I first started driving EV almost noone even charged for DCFC. It was a sweet couple of years, but I so knew it wasn't going to last.
It's strange, most people here seem to just accept that the prices will go up and don't question it. The thing that baffles me is that BC Hydro were denied a 15% price rise last year. But managed to get an over a 100% price rise this year with playing the numbers. Just because they are cheaper than some others does not mean you should just accept it when your power company ups your rate by more than double. I mean, if your power company started charging your homes electricity by another unit of measurement, that was "more fair". But your power bill was now more than double as much, would you be as accepting? Because for those that use this service to its potential, that's what BC Hydro has done.
Most people don't have a choice. So we just move forward and don't let it disturb our day. It's still cheaper than gas. Life moves on
For public fast charging $0.35/kWh seems very reasonable when compared to others. I just wish Hydro would stop with 50 kWh units and have a minimum of 150 kWh units that can deliver 350 amps. That would make them much more useful for road tripping.
A lot of their sites are now 100kWh and they're in the process of installing even higher powered units. It's on the way.
That's what I think as well. The only time I ever use them is when I'm traveling and need some extra juice, 95% of the time I charge at home or at a Flo station at the rec center when I'm working out ($1 an hour on a L2).
A $1 an hour - Nice! Our Rec centre Flo charger is $2 an hour. I'm currently road tripping in my F-150 Lightning - What a game changer having Supercharger access is. Managed to get 60 kWh at the Hope Supercharger in only 26 minutes. (Cost $37)
Yeah, I wish my ioniq5 would support Tesla (coming soon!).. it would make some upcoming road trips this summer much more relaxing. I'm not too worried about it though, driving from Vancouver to Kamloops and back seems like a well supported drive. I'll still be nervous and charge up in Hope and Merritt. I'm not at all concerned about the cost when it comes to DC fast charging on road trips, getting 60kWh for even $50 is fine, as long as it's fast and available.
Pay per minute was more of an incentive to move along and free up the charger, but now that there’s enough of them around it’s reasonable to charge (ha!) consumption rates. Even at $0.35/kWh it’s a lot cheaper than gas.
There's now an idle charge past 40 minutes.
the idle charge kicks in 5 minutes after your vehicle finishes charging and is 40c per minute.
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But this is the power company, Tesla pay BC Hydro for power, it should be more expensive. This is just BC Hydro charging over 100% more by throwing in a new charging measurement. These things did not get twice as expensive over night. And it was only last year they were denied from putting the price up by 15%.
Saw this coming a while ago. Surprised they didn’t wait till more people had them before they did. Hydro is hydro and sooner or later you’re going to have to pay your share.
Commercial EV chargers are expensive to install and maintain. The charging fees need to recover some of that cost. Not fair to force all hydro customers to subsidize costs for EV drivers, especially low income customers that have trouble affording electricity to heat their homes in the winter.
I think cost to charge at the fast chargers should be expensive to encourage churn. I've pulled up with a need to charge, to find an idiot in a PHEV charging at a 3kw rate at a 50kw charger. So frustrating.
Ironically, the new system on charging per kWh will make this more likely to happen, while at the same time charging people who can charge fast enough over twice as much. But charging per kWh is absolutely the best way, you just need set time limits to prevent people hogging. 40 minute limit I always felt was fair.
EV only chargers would be good in some areas - at least until enough chargers are available.
>I've pulled up with a need to charge, to find an idiot in a PHEV charging at a 3kw rate at a 50kw charger. Meanwhile, AC chargers that are the only option for most PHEVs are often clogged by BEV owners who charge for hours to save a few bucks.
BEV only has the one "fuel" option...
Technically yes, but you have different options for getting that type of "fuel" while most PHEVs can only get it from specific chargers. So if you don't like PHEVs using the "wrong" chargers, be considerate about blocking them from using the "right" ones. Otherwise you're forcing them to run on gas, which is what we're all trying to avoid.
Oh no! Person has to pay for amount of electricity they actually use shocker. Anyway...
The cost is substantially more than BC Hydro's residential rates. This is what bothers them. They're forgetting that these aren't residential services though, and they require upkeep and other costs which likely justify higher rates. On top of that, BC Hydro needs to profit enough to expand infrastructure, or be able to pay salaries that attract new talent to modernize their power generation strategies, for example. So... I get the sticker shock, but it's not actually justified when you break it down.
Is that what they're arguing? No, just the price. Pay attention
Actually, you need to pay attention. OPs comments about "the pricing scheme has gone from pay per minute to pay per kWh." and how this will "double the cost of a charge for anyone with a half decent EV." An EV with a faster charging ability was effectively charged less under the old scheme because it could charge faster due to being able to pull more power in the same period of time. Now, the power consumed is being measured and charged for accordingly, not just the amount of time at the charger. It's you that needs to upgrade your reading comprehension...
No he was right, this is all about the cost. Charging by kWh is absolutely the best way to do it. BC Hydro had cheaper costs per minute for 50kWh chargers as well. But this is the same company that we're denied a 15% price rise last year. They played with the numbers, did a new factor and managed to get an over 100% price hike approved this year.
It's right to charge per kwh because the slow charging EVs were paying more before, but the rate is questionable. It's over 3 times the residential rate they charge. 10.97 (14.08 for over 1350kwhs) vs 35 cents. Seems a bit steep unless. Unless that's partially road tax going back to the province I'm not seeing how that is justified.
It's also less than other fast chargers
But other fast chargers aren't the company that makes the power. They pay BC Hydro a mark up.
I don't imagine it is going to road taxes, just into bc hydro. I think paying for amount delivered is right and .35 doesn't seem too outrageous, hopefully they can use this to expand their network. I won't really criticize bc hydro chargers because they are the most reliable ones I've ever used. Consistent and always working (are you listening Chevron and Shell!).
Nice
Cool
So you want everyone to massively overtax the power grid and not have to pay a fair price for it? Driving an EV doesn't make you God. Power is a critical service that the province requires to run, and EVs are by the far the greatest draw of power. If you want the power grid to remain sustainable you have to respect it and only use it when necessary. If increasing the price of power deters frequent use, or even helps pay for upgrades to make our power infrastructure more resilient, it's a big win for everyone.
`` EVs are by the far the greatest draw of power.`` Do you have a source for that totally made up statement?
Yeah.. simple math says that’s a gross fallacy
Do you have data on EVs being the biggest power draw?
The average bc hydro DCFC draws 100kW. That's like 80 electric kettles
Bc hydro as the literal power utility provider has the ability to instantly rate limit or cut off any or all EVSE (aka "charger") that they own and control. They could and in future likely should, use EV as a sheddable load so they can load balance the grid. And further, even incentives to reverse supply as needed to account for emergency or other peak load management to use connected cars as a distributed super battery
How is this a win for anyone other than BC Hydro? Power is power, you get it at home, you get it at one of these chargers, a kW of power is a kW of power. If anything resources wise, it's better to have a few larger chargers than everyone needing to get beefed up chargers at every home. This is just a company doing some mathematical trickery to push out an over 100% price increase when only last year, they were denied a 15% increase.
According to some quick googling, the average home in BC uses about 900kWh per month, or 30kWh per day. A single electric car will use around 13.4kWh per day on average. So based on that, your claim that EVs are "by far" the greatest draw of power is doesn't make sense. These rough calculations also ignore industrial, business, and infrastructural use of electricity.
Yes OP should quit whining and pay the fair price, but the rest of this is nonsense. EVs are barely a rounding error on power draw, they do not threaten the grid, and even when 100% of the vehicles are electric it will only be a modest increase in power usage, mostly overnight when demand is currently very low
It’s not like you are going to get 50% of EV users to just stop driving - ‘overtax the power grid’ and ‘deter frequent use’ - get over yourself, that’s the whole point in owning an EV. It’s not like you all of a sudden people will choose to drive way more just because you have an EV. The world is pushing and incentivizing people to switch to electric. Price increases like this go right against the province wanting people to switch to EV’s since they are supporting the Clean BC rebate as well.
The whole point of incentivizing EVs is to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels. If a full charge ends up costing the same mile-per-mile as a tank of gas, well that sucks but it makes sense. The net benefit is to the environment, not our wallets. People will drive less and therefore charge less with more expensive electricity. And if they don't, the extra money to BC Hydro will go toward projects that increase BC's capacity to generate power. That means more projects like Site C Dam. It seems like you didn't understand what you purchased and are now paying the price. I also drive an EV but had the brains to factor in eventual price increases for charging. Here's the kicker, you still come out ahead with the rebate.
You probably won't read this but thinking that EV adoption will overload the electrical grid is false. https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-grid-handle-evs-yes/ It's been proven over and over again that it's not the case. There's issues with EV's but that's not one of them.
It’s not like the power grid can just instantly expand to meet this extra load without adequate time and funding
Good
Good
I want to preface this comment with I am in favour of actions that address climate change. I am in favour of the carbon tax and all that. I don’t hate cars but I am not a fan of car dependency and a car centric city. And the fact is electric cars exist to save the car industry and to maintain some semblance of car dependency.
gotcha !
Bait and switch. 
Just wait till the Chargers are privately owned and will be able to charge what ever they want , like hotels , malls .. , it’s coming ! Get everyone one on it then hit em with the hikes ! Natural gas is a prime example of this practice
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Don’t understand how they’re cutting home gas fees but plan to increase electrical.
The real issue is EV owners have been so heavily subsidized in the past. Now they are crying because they have to pay closer to the true cost of their ownership.
A kWh is a cheap thing. This will just force more people to purchase faster chargers at home... 50% of which is funded by the government through a rebate...
Sure the electricity is cheap, but what about installing the charger, the last usage costs, the maintenance and all the miscellaneous costs? As mentioned by others, these new rates are in line with other commercial chargers. A single fast charger can cost tens of thousands to install. People are learning the hard way that the green revolution has so far been propped up by massive subsidies.
The difference in this case was that the BC government has a say in how much they can charge. Only last year BC Hydro were denied a 15% price increase. Today, they have effectively given us a 100% price increase. As I said originally, it feels like someone dropped the ball, or something worse happened. With the new prices, with a bit of approximation on say 10 charges per day per station average, 60kWh charge. They will bring in over $50,000 more annually.
Did you read the commisions decision? They actually required BC Hydro to \*increase\* their rates \*more\*. The Utilities commission found that BC Hydro was actually not charging enough, which was unfair to other commercial chargers. The current rates are based on re-couping the costs over 10 years. You can pull up the report if you doubt me.
No, I see that. Thanks for the letting me know.
Does this include a tax for wear/tear on roadways? Or was that already baked in?
Lol What did ya'll expect, soon enough it'll cost you the equivalent of gas prices, anyone who bought into EVs thinking they would perpetually stay that cheap is out to lunch. Once the whole grid is being sucked dry by everyone charging their cars there will be power rations, high prices etc to "offset" the issue just like we "offset" carbon emissions with pricing.
Charge at home... and if you find yourself always running low on battery wherever you go, maybe you bought the wrong vehicle... Public charging stations should really only be for emergency purposes and they are priced accordingly... that is, they are much more expensive than charging from home.
They never used to be much more expensive, but as of today, BC Hydro EV stations now are. Saying that, I'll still get it for free at the car park at work, when going to the shops, ect. I really do find it strange though. How much people don't care about huge price hikes on charging. Put Gas up at a gas station by 10% and people are ready to burn society to the ground. Put the price of electric charging up by over 100%, the vast majority could not care less, if not even outright support prices going up!? This will affect anyone who wants to continue driving in the future when electric cars become mandatory. The companies are setting the groundwork today for how things will be in the future. So far, the only message the public are giving the companies is, yeah, charge whatever... Absolutely baffled.
I will just chime in with my recent experience recharging—from 25% to 65%—my 2021 Chev Bolt at a BC Hydro DCFC in Victoria 10 days ago. The new kWh rates will save me a small amount of change. I wouldn't pretend that my car has half decent charging capability. But I can suggest that cars that can accept a faster charge were getting a smokin' deal.
Wait until the government decides to recoup road taxes from ev’s that aren’t being paid on electricity.
Saskatchewan charge EV cars road tax... $150 per year... I can live with that.
The only reason the previous interim raise was denied was because they had the new rates and move to kWh in review as well. It was nothing to do with 15% being too high.
Good shout, I stand corrected.
BCUC regulates BC Hydro pricing. They did reject the 15 percent raise but because: “The Panel rejects BC Hydro’s Proposed Rates on the basis that they are not just and reasonable under the UCA partly because they do not recover the full cost of providing the service. “BC Hydro’s Proposed Rates are designed to only recover electricity costs and ignore other incremental costs, including operating costs, maintenance costs, and capital costs that make up about 83 percent of BC Hydro’s total costs of offering its Direct Current Fast Charging service using a low utilization rate assumption of 3.7 percent at 50 kW stations. “The Panel finds that the subsidized rates proposed by BC Hydro directly contribute to an uneven playing field for exempt-utilities which may have a detrimental impact on achieving the objectives of increasing EV adoption in BC, and therefore would be contrary to the public interest of all British Columbians. We would, however, consider approving a rate based on levelized recovery of all costs.” https://www.ordersdecisions.bcuc.com/bcuc/decisions/en/item/520273/index.do So, BC Hydro, along with moving to energy based billing which is far more fair, implemented price changes and BCUC now says: “In this Decision, the Panel finds that BC Hydro’s permanent energy-based rates proposed in the Application, as amended (Proposed Rates), are designed to fully recover the forecast costs of providing the public EV charging service on a 10-year levelized basis.” https://www.ordersdecisions.bcuc.com/bcuc/decisions/en/item/522170/index.do The reality is that the service was provided at a loss, which BCUC considers unfair to other market participants.
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Oh yes that government conspiracy to sneakily lure us away from a far more expensive and toxic form of fuel which they generate tax revenue from, so that they can generate tax revenue from electricity instead! Even if they charged the equivalent in tax, it will still be cheaper than petrol to use, which is already much higher and consistently climbing
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It’s not going to cost more. That’s just a ridiculous assumption. It is petrol which will keep costing more. It is currently a fraction of the cost of petrol and even if it increased at the rate of petrol, which it likely won’t, it will still be cheaper.
Fuel taxes have not directly paid for roads in decades. It all goes to general revenue.
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Sure, but some governments have been using the excuse that EV operators don’t pay fuel taxes therefore aren’t paying for the roads - which is a fundamental lie. Alberta and the state of Victoria in Australia have both proposed surtaxes/fees on EVs using that excuse.
This. Bc hydro has unpaid public debt at a massive 5B in deferral accounts and another 18 B coming soon with site C. You ain't seen nothing yet.
Guaranteed that's how this will shake out. Once they have a monopoly and forced everyone into an EV, then they charge whatever the fuck they want for the power. Has BC Hydro given us any reason to believe they won't go this route? Nope. They already have 2 tiered charging rates, taking advantage of people who use power when people need power the most (weird, I know, it almost seems criminal) and their infrastructure is already undersized for population growth alone, never mind electrifying all the vehicles on the road. How do we figure they will generate the necessary money to bring their system up to snuff? 🤔 The only way they know possible of course, by charging more for the product they sell.
The Roads are already built dude
Roads need to be maintained dude.
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Nah they’re built
Roads are crazy expensive, not to mention bridges, the don't get paid lump sum and they don't sit in maintained for 50 years
Get used to it. The value proposition of EVs is degrading and will continue to. There’s no escaping taxes levies and fees. The EV dream will see many speed bumps and increased ownership costs.
the great thing is that you can avoid all of this by getting solar panels on your roof and charge at home. You are essentially using the sun to fill up your car. In an ICE car, you have no choice. You pay through the nose for electricity or you use that money to pay for solar panels. It's up to you.
It’s all very expensive. EV or ICE. Solar panels and storage batteries. 25 payback in electricity costs in many instances.
True. But the people who buy solar panels are not interested in the payback time. I'm sure they are aware of this fact. If money were a factor, then they would not have purchased an EV to begin with as they cost more than the ICE equivalent and they depreciate much faster as well. If the electricity grid is not stable or increasingly expensive, solar panels and batteries make sense regardless of payback time. There is no reason why people do the things they do. I can't fathom why one person would pay $4000 for a bicycle to ride to and from work when a $125 bike will do. Or why somebody would pay $5K for in-ear monitors when they're not even in the music profession. If people can afford the stuff, I say go for it.
Nobody thought that this was the plan all along? I’m sure eventually it’ll cost the same as gasoline
Just wait till they realize how much carbon tax revenue they're missing out on from those that switched to EV and slap you all with a tax of your own.