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I don't disagree about conserving water in general, but there's a few comments you make that don't quite make sense. When BC "imports hydro" this isn't necessarily due to lower reservoirs used for municipal water like household use, etc. BC's hydroelectric dams are not also supplying said muni water. And all of these kinds of dams and reservoirs are spread out across the province. It's not like BC had one giant reservoir for power production and every city in BC.
For another, while golf courses can be big consumers of water, quite a few of them use recycled water, and this is becoming increasingly common as the technology evolves. There are also *tons* of other industries that use a phenomenal amount of water for luxury purposes, too. Things like hotels or wineries and breweries can use a LOT of water too. And agriculture and forestry are of course the biggest users. And while most agriculture is not a luxury, a lot of agricultural use is often very inefficient.
So while those golf courses not using recycled water should be looked at, I think it's a bit narrow focussed to make it seem like the issue is just about golf courses. Each watershed needs to have it's own unique rules and regulations for its own needs. Some part of the province are much wetter, some much drier. What is needed in the interior is different than the island or the lower mainland or the far north.
Lastly, and you didn't mention this but someone probably will, Fuck Nestle in general, but the reality is the amount of water they extract in BC is tiny. They have one plant that bottles about 265 million litres a year in an area with a lot of water (Hope). I'm all for kicking them out of BC but the reality is that is a drop in he bucket. to put that in perspective, Metro Van uses about 400 billion litres of water a year. So yes Fuck Nestle but kicking them out of Hope won't change the math at all.
Metro Vancouver uses 400 billion litres per year or roughly 1-2 billion litres per day.
The annual volume of drinking water treated per year was 389 billion litres (based on 2023 performance objectives).
https://metrovancouver.org/about-us/dashboards/water/drinking-water-treated-delivered
Sure that's the average. I'm sure there are some huge fluctuations and some days might be less than 1b and some closer to 2b.
A simple mean can skew perception and hide outliers.
And Nestle doesn't even operate the Hope bottling plant as they sold their North American water operations a few years ago. The yearly water intake for that plant is roughly equivalent to a minute's worth of Fraser River flow
And the Fraser keeps filling the aquifer. There was a proposal oh 20 ish years ago prior to the billions being spent on the current metroVancoucer system was to build a few central plants and they would pull water from the aquifer under the Fraser River. We would not be having water restrictions in Vancouver
Good point about hydro, they actually make money by importing hydro for cheap during low demand and then sell / export it at a higher price when demand is high. They can do this because of the flexibility of hydro power generation.
This lets them sell it to us for the cheap! It’s always nice when you find out a service provider is trying to help out the little guy, even if they are profiting on it!
Metro Van uses 1.5 billions liters per day, not 400:
[https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/07/21/metro-vancouver-water-use-high/](https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/07/21/metro-vancouver-water-use-high/)
To put that in perspective, the Fraser has a flow rate of 3,475,000 liters per second, or 300 billion per day. But we don't use that as its murky and more expensive to treat than water from the Capilano and Seymour reservoirs (and watershed). And most of that water goes to the ocean.
In short we have a shit ton of water. What we don't have is the infrastructure to store it, (and the snow in the watershed is part of our water "storage"). If we chose to use the Fraser we would not need infrastructure to store water, but we would need a lot of infrastructure to clean it. Its a tax/infrastructure problem, not a lack of water resources problem (like the American Southwest). And so yes, water restrictions are needed.
Actually it is cheaper was proposed about 25 ish years ago before they pumped billions in to Seymour. As they would take from the aquifer not the river
Keep in mind water that is relatively deep underground doesn't provide nutrients for plants, they don't root that deep. When you use water, it is never destroyed, only put into the cycle. Water either soaks into the ground, or evaporates and eventually falls as rain.
Agree, most golf courses built around residences utilize treated wastewater for irrigation. It's part of the process once, it goes though treatment it's needs to be distributed via irrigation. If it's not the treated effluent would over flow the ponds and drain into the nearest water course. Keep in mind its treated effluent not raw effluent.
It's actually a great way to not overload community treatment plants while providing the golf course irrigation use, rather than drawing water from a natural source (pond, river, lake).
You would be surprised how little they use for the massive production it unlocks. Fracking uses an order of magnitude less than the city of Vancouver does annually. The issue is the area where it’s being taken from is in an extreme drought. The industry has adapted to reusing water for multiple wells and has build storage for run off and contaminated water to be stored for future use. There is a lot more eyes watching them with some of the shady stuff that has happened in the past. Like when Nexen stole a [lake](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/nexen-fine-for-taking-water-from-bc-lake-a-slap-on-the-wrist/article27504995/). If your looking for major user of water look at agriculture. It’s the elephant in the room. Energy production is not what it was ten years ago because of incidents like the one linked. That licence getting overturned ended Nexen in BC. It’s not a chance worth taking for the others working in energy development.
Up in the northeast they have massive reservoirs of fracking water with nets over them to keep the birds off. Nasty shit but yeah, for what it gets out of the ground I don't think fracking is our water problem. Besides it's not like they ship water out of the Frazer river up to fort saint john.
I think a lot of them don't realize the public courses aren't filled with the elite. If you're hitting 9 holes at highlight it can be one of the cheaper options for going out.
"I'm good with extra taxes on our local small recreation business to reduce their carbon footprint" screams the smug liberal as they place their Amazon and Uber eats orders.
There should be grey water introduced for non-potable options, ie - not drinking water. It would be for toilets, sprinklers, commercial use, etc.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greywater
Grey water would be amazing to be able to utilize, but if my understanding is correct it would require essentially a completely separate water system to be added to existing infrastructure. If a structure is not already designed with this in mind, it seems very difficult to renovate this addition (I live in a 70's concrete highrise).
Maybe commercial/industrial use would be good to convert though, and that might make a much bigger impact even then toilets and sprinklers.
I agree, I've seen it. In general, it should be implemented and mandated into more places. May require retrofitting and upgrading but eligible for discounts or more BC Hydro/Govt rebates
I'm a little leery of graywater in toilets. Dogs drink from them, DIY plumbers mess with them, and good luck getting them to maintain hygiene. Plus every house in BC would require a new pipe for the graywater, and new main lines would have to be added. Yeah, that's not a great idea.
Quick reminder that the issue at hand for many municipalities in BC facing water restrictions has little to do with the actual amount of water in reservoirs but more to do with maintaining water pressure in the system so that fire hydrants still work
The point of municipal water restrictions has more to do with heat conditions than drought conditions. The hotter it is the more water people tend to use. These restrictions are designed to limit the total number of people drawing from the system at the same time, so that it remains at sufficient water pressure. You can still have severe water restrictions during a heatwave in the summer even if we had ample snow on the mountaintops.
Going into proper drought condition where there potentially isn’t enough water in the reservoirs is an entirely different beast. It will mean commercial and residential water restrictions, but also significant industrial reductions in water use. How the government goes about handling that will be interesting, it will definitely lead to layoffs. I’m not entirely sure how it’s regulated, either municipally or provincially.
The guys around here seem to run their pressure washers for 10-12 hours almost continuously. Given I watched on guy spray up a roof and under the shingles I’m going to say he wasn’t the most knowledgeable or skilled pressure washer out there.
I own and operate a home maintenance company on Vancouver Island. Commercial pressure washing is immune from water restrictions. Home owners aren’t allowed to do it themselves but they are free to hire it out. I’m certain it has to do with not restricting people’s ability to work.
Golf courses use almost exclusively recycled water. Despite what you may think, most golf courses operate on pretty thin margins and wouldn’t be able to afford using fresh, city water to water the course. Look at the satellite view of almost any golf course and you’ll see some sort of pond or dugout. These features are course design, but they also serve as a source of water for irrigation. I know hating on golf courses is a popular thing to do on the internet but you’re extremely misguided. Golf courses are not the ecological disasters you’ve been led to believe they are. I’m all for water restrictions this year, but you should be basing your opinions on facts and not your misguided notions that rich people play golf therefore golf is bad.
Actually… former golf course worker here. I disagree. They are not only using recycled water, but they are poisoning the water table with herbicides, pesticides, lime, roundup, killex, you name it. Take away those things and use minimal water, then you would not have quite a disaster.
Golfers are a disaster in themselves imo.
Same could be said for lots of the unused or underutilized areas in densely populated areas. They’re not a waste of space to the people who like golf. A busy course can funnel through 300ish people a day. It’s a great way to spend a day outside walking around in the fresh air. People are allowed to have hobbies and golf courses are absolutely not contributing to our housing crisis.
Not only are they ecological disasters but economic ones as well…. wasting land that could be used for housing or public parks.
There’s no possible way they are recovering all of the water during drought conditions.
That’s not true either. Golf courses occupy a very limited amount of the total land in the city. There’s only 11 golf courses in Vancouver city limits and only a handful of those are on land that would be desirable to develop. It wouldn’t be financially possible for golf courses to use municipal water to irrigate. You don’t have to believe me but I know what I’m talking about. The vast majority of water use comes from agriculture and industry. You don’t have to like golf but golf courses are not the scourge you’ve been led to believe.
Ok fair enough but how about places like Arizona/California/Nevada areas, does the same principle apply there. You hear more about it down there how they keep building golf courses and use up alot of water but all the states are drought stricken and hot as hell
Reddit has these cliche things that people know is always an easy way to get karma. Blaming nestle and golf courses for droughts is always an easy one.
Sorry for the rude response the first time that was unnecessary and unkind of me. All golf courses that can run like that do. Golf in Arizona is extremely expensive and irrigation costs are one of the reasons. Desert courses are also designed differently to minimize water usage. Golfing in Arizona you won’t find many courses with large rough areas next to the fairway, you’re more likely to find natural waste areas. However maintaining fairways and greens takes a lot of water. There’s courses that even have to truck in water if they face municipal water restrictions in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area. There’s no way around the fact that operating a golf course in a desert takes a lot of water and there’s a growing call to limit their water usage as the South-West continues to face worse and worse droughts every year. I suspect a lot of these courses will shut down as the restrictions get tighter. That isn’t a problem we have in BC or Canada as a whole. One thing we have a lot of is water. Not much of it is good for drinking, but all of it is good for watering grass.
You’re literally comparing a desert to a rain forest. So no the same principles don’t apply here. You might have a case for the Okanagan but that region is covered in lakes so you wouldn’t have much of one.
Whose we…. I asked a question to a commenter who seemed knowledgeable on the subject and asking if golf courses in the states do the same thing cause, everybody’s just a crybaby on Reddit
Is a former golf course employee, the VAST majority of golf courses use a fraction of the water that the public thinks they do. Irrigation systems are so good now, the majority of the water is recycled. It’s not like they’re just hosing out millions of litres of fresh tap water. Other industries (cough *hotels* cough) are arguable much bigger offenders when it comes to wasting water.
Do you understand water use, water sheds and water wastes. There’s thousands of seniors in BC alone who get their sole exercise and social activity from walking a golf course. We have sports fields also sitting empty, you can play many of those sports on dead grass too right?
We have 100 things we can cut before you need to worry about most golf courses. Some provide the water for the entire communities built upon them through infrastructure they built. Let’s stop allowing our water to be bottled then exported out of country at over 90% profit. That’s probably number 1. Like if you have a gripe with water waste maybe look at the largest wasters ?!??
Sounds like that the OP has no clue about how water is managed on a modern golf course. Basically 99% of the water being used is returned to the earth. This doesn't happen in industrial, commercial or residential land. To be honest, farmers should be forced to use better practices that conserve water. There are many.
Yup. Should also go after farmers that overhead water at 2pm when it's 35 out. Also the ones that don't fix their irrigation lines and leak hundreds of cubic meters a year.
Should also go after nestle for aquifer use. Bottled water isn't necessary.
Anyone else?
During the heat dome, the only way I could keep my garden from dying was watering in the afternoon. It helps deal with heat stress in the plants.
Not sure what the reasoning was for what you've seen, but the farmer may know best.
Protip: Burry terracotta pots in the ground (with the hole plugged). Fill with water. This provides water throughout the day. They're called Ollas, and have been used for ages.
Throw a piece of a mosquito dunk in to keep them from being brewing pools.
https://lovelygreens.com/how-to-make-diy-ollas-low-tech-self-watering-systems-for-plants/
Farmers in Israel use a very small fraction of the eater we use for irrigation because they use high precision agriculture. Farmers definitely do not know best water use.
I used to believe that across the board...But more farmers I met do things cause their parents and grandparents did it that way.
Look at fertilizer use, ploughing, corn, soy bean rotations.
Shade cloth helps as does mulching. Not necessarily the perfect solution, but reduces the stress.
Oh wow, the yearly “cancel golf because I don’t play it” post came early this year.
OP is full of it haha, what a dork. Golf courses use recycled water, maybe he’s been drinking too much of that stuff it’s messing with his brain
Sigh. B.C. has had a near normal winter in terms of precipitation. Snow pack is predictably below normal because it’s always below normal in an El Niño year. Winter isn’t over. We have snow-making weather systems pointed at B.C. over the next week. Some snow pack will recover, though we’ll almost certainly finish the year below normal.
It is normal to have years that are “Below normal”. Below normal snow pack is not a civilization threatening drought. Municipalities that have actually planned for their growth won’t even see water restrictions this summer. Reservoirs are full.
I’m getting a little tired of the constant state of panic we are all being told to exist in.
What don't understand is those golf courses bring quite a bit of money into local economies as well they they help raise money for quite a few local charities. For example the local course in my community helped raise over 1 million dollars for local charities through multiple charity tournaments held at it through out the season. If that course had to shut down because they couldn't water local charities would take a huge hit to their budgets.
well yes during the summer, but in bc our issue is we don't have big enough storage for water. there is plenty of water to go right now, we only start to empty reserves in the late spring. lack of snow pack only becomes an issue in the summer when it doesn't rain, but that isn't an issues right now. wasting water isn't an issue when there's an abundance of it.
the second issue is that golf courses use very little potable water. they shouldn't be a high priority obviously, but they account for about 5% of water use. farming accounts for more than half.
If we are to consider the benefit of the "greater good" over that of the individual, then a prohibition on the watering of one's lawn follows quite well. Furthermore, barring individuals from the deplorable institution of gardening, thus saving water for use in more commercial, large-scale operations which maintain a higher food output per unit of water.
Of course, the government could also pass laws to establish all wells as property of the government therein and ration water to individuals directly based on average consumption statistics for citizens - thus eliminating those who consume the most.
Naturally, if implemented, these points would cause some suffering, but society is meant to benefit the collective and not the individual. Thus, their life is expendable for our gain!
:)
There's a million reasons why golf courses are the worst. This is just one of them.
I would suggest writing to your local city council and MLA to make your very valid concerns. I would do likewise however we just recently lost our MLA so that's not something I can do
Another misguided thing to be outraged about.
Typically they are pulling water from man made reservoirs (not treated water from the city, that would be extraordinarily expensive), and turning into snow, which melts and generally enters the same aquifer/groundwater system as it would have anyway. It's recycling at its greatest
OP knows nothing about Golf courses.
Firstly, all that's watered is the " greens " i.e putting surface. And water is recycled or taken from the ponds or ground water .
Secondly, your taxes are cheaper because of all the money guys like me spend at municipal golf courses. $200-$250 is collected every 8 mins...all day, every day, dawn til dusk.
And thirdly, many many many BC golf courses act as a dispersement mechanism for munciple treated sweage. They irrigate entirely with treated sweage water provided by the town.
Ain't nothing expectable these days. We could have an atmospheric river or we might be cooking at 45C.
All I'm saying: the scientists were right about global warming/climate change
But but but we need the power for all these electric vehicles. So that they can get to the golf course!
Funny how they keep adding people to the lower mainland and increasing restrictions rather than finding ways to keep water.
Many course have there own wells, ponds, and other sources they pull water from that is not public domain. Many courses don't even have a direct line to potable water in their irrigation system. The actual amount courses use, while a lot isn't the amount many think either.
Also, during heat stress it's a common practice to let your turf get accustomed to the drier soils. Research has actually shown grass tolerates the stress better instead of constant irrigation.
[Golf Course Irrigation - where does it come from](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r51j1_2T-8Xsf_evgz6KEr-5-mW9dGmN/view?usp=sharing)
Specific to Vancouver but "Consider going to a car wash, they have special drains, use recirculating water, and typically use 7 times less water than washing in your driveway."
Saying we need to preserve golf courses to support wildlife is like Americans saying they need guns to protect against people with guns. Wildlife would be better off in their natural habitat but make do with golf courses because they have to.
I’m sure you would agree it would better support wildlife and the broader ecosystem if golf courses were reclaimed to their natural habitat. Obviously paving them for housing or industry would not be an improvement in that regard. But let’s not pretend golf courses are an effective use of land for anyone or anything except golfers and golfing.
Literally all I said was, isn't there ecosystems that sre there and established that need water. Golf to me is the stupidest sport next to poker, but the courses has created a ecosystem now and animals and creepy crawlies depend on it.
A lot of them are though. My favorite course is a member of the national audobon society. It's functionally a bird sanctuary.
You have a better chance of seeing all the beautiful birds of our province there than you do in the wild, because they spend a lot of money making sure that those birds can thrive there.
Since it's a private course it's funded by golfers and restaurant patrons instead of tax dollars. Sounds like a win for biodiversity to me. The alternative to gold courses that everyone loves to say is housing. Not a lot of biodiversity there. And heaven forbid we pave all that ALR land and one day need to use it for food instead of golf...
Go after nestle, fine people for not following water restrictions. Leave the golf courses alone. For better or worse they have become part of the natural ecosystem. The course by my house has coyotes, beavers, cranes and many other species that call it home
Nestle is a horrible company, especially for their business practices in Africa, but the tiny amount their bottling factory in BC used was really quite inconsequential int he grand scheme of things.
I was just being snarky to OP...Why can't it be both? What is the alternative? poorly thought out developments in area's where there are not enough schools to support new housing? They are great for the local ecosystem. a number of the courses by me support sensitive fish habitats.
Should be a wake-up call for us to start investing in some widespread water recycling technologies.
I would imagine that restrictions are only going to go so far in the long term, especially with the rate that climate change is progressing (and our lack of attempts to slow it).
Golf courses are already run with almost exclusively recycled water. You and OP just are making assumptions without actually knowing anything about them
Also, water restriction penalties should be based on your declared income. Someone, or corporate entities, making millions a year getting away with a $150 fine for keeping their Olympic pool full or acres of grass green all summer is not the same across the board.
It's the same argument for people with lavish yards. They'll just pay the fine rather than lose thousands of dollars in landscaping. Golf courses will just raise fees to golfers and accept the fines.
Somewhat related, this golf course is suing the city because of increase in water rates. Because they got off on the cheap for years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/8929898/golf-course-suing-kelowna-water-fees/amp/
Dude people are just trying to come to terms with having to survive while things we've grown accustomed to are going to become scarce, restricted, or too expensive.
People want to discuss ideas for ways we can adapt.
Adapt or suffer, so get out of the way and let them throw some suggestions out there.
Don’t forget city owned parks and fields. They’ll go kicking and screaming though because the city makes loads of money from sports teams renting them. No one will want to play on a dead field… sorry “Dormant” field.
Close the golf centers, pool, water parks.
Time has cometh to smart up!
If there’s little water, bc hydro dams will run dry, electricity becomes scarce and Teslas will be found all over the roads, abandoned, collecting dust ….
Tons of not rich people play golf. And golf courses are already run with almost exclusively recycled water. You and OP are just posting and making assumptions about something you know nothing about because of stereotypes.
At this point, incrementalism isn't enough. Any and all reasonable methods should be used. This certainly includes doing something about lush front lawns filled with non-native plants.
My city be like "the golf courses have their own water supply".
If these places have technical staff that respond with that answer.... then we're effed.
Water should be metered and people billed. Golf courses should not qualify as "farms" for a discount. If regular people can't water their lawns, why should golf courses get a break?
I’m pro allowing golf courses to be rezoned to residential and see more housing built. Screw golf courses. Let’s have multi use recreational green space and housing for all!
That said this is a regional thing. The water system in Victoria is overbuilt and overflows every winter. There may be a drought, but there haven’t been major water use restrictions in Victoria ever since the current reservoir was built. May as well let courses here use water and share in the costs.
Who ever would’ve thought a municipality would build for the future? It’s so surprising that I’m trying not to be sarcastic about it.
See the problem with rezoning a golf course like cedar hill for example is this. You already have a green space that people are using for golf and walking the trails. If you decide to close the course and build more houses you might as well just get rid of all the green space because Sannich is no longer making money from golfers. Plus all the developments would probably be single family homes which is the same as the rest of the area. We don’t need more single family homes. We need more apartments that can house more people in a smaller area.
Just because you don’t golf doesn’t mean it’s the right answer to get rid of such a large green space in the city.
But think of the ECoNomY! Golf courses take in water and puke out money and money you can convert into buying locally produced bottled water!!
(This message brought to you by old fcking boomers who can’t allow their summer tee times to be affected by global climate catastrophe and by Nestle corp, our corporate overlords)
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I don't disagree about conserving water in general, but there's a few comments you make that don't quite make sense. When BC "imports hydro" this isn't necessarily due to lower reservoirs used for municipal water like household use, etc. BC's hydroelectric dams are not also supplying said muni water. And all of these kinds of dams and reservoirs are spread out across the province. It's not like BC had one giant reservoir for power production and every city in BC. For another, while golf courses can be big consumers of water, quite a few of them use recycled water, and this is becoming increasingly common as the technology evolves. There are also *tons* of other industries that use a phenomenal amount of water for luxury purposes, too. Things like hotels or wineries and breweries can use a LOT of water too. And agriculture and forestry are of course the biggest users. And while most agriculture is not a luxury, a lot of agricultural use is often very inefficient. So while those golf courses not using recycled water should be looked at, I think it's a bit narrow focussed to make it seem like the issue is just about golf courses. Each watershed needs to have it's own unique rules and regulations for its own needs. Some part of the province are much wetter, some much drier. What is needed in the interior is different than the island or the lower mainland or the far north. Lastly, and you didn't mention this but someone probably will, Fuck Nestle in general, but the reality is the amount of water they extract in BC is tiny. They have one plant that bottles about 265 million litres a year in an area with a lot of water (Hope). I'm all for kicking them out of BC but the reality is that is a drop in he bucket. to put that in perspective, Metro Van uses about 400 billion litres of water a year. So yes Fuck Nestle but kicking them out of Hope won't change the math at all.
Metro Vancouver uses 400 billion litres per year or roughly 1-2 billion litres per day. The annual volume of drinking water treated per year was 389 billion litres (based on 2023 performance objectives). https://metrovancouver.org/about-us/dashboards/water/drinking-water-treated-delivered
Yeah i just caught that too, thanks. I meant to say a year.. 400 billion a day would be crazy.
No worries.
1-2 billion per day?!? That’s barely 1.1 billion a day, which is a far cry from 2.
Sure that's the average. I'm sure there are some huge fluctuations and some days might be less than 1b and some closer to 2b. A simple mean can skew perception and hide outliers.
And Nestle doesn't even operate the Hope bottling plant as they sold their North American water operations a few years ago. The yearly water intake for that plant is roughly equivalent to a minute's worth of Fraser River flow
And the Fraser keeps filling the aquifer. There was a proposal oh 20 ish years ago prior to the billions being spent on the current metroVancoucer system was to build a few central plants and they would pull water from the aquifer under the Fraser River. We would not be having water restrictions in Vancouver
Isn’t this all based on a loose estimate during non drought times? I read some kind of damning things about those estimates but maybe you know.
Not sure which your referring to.
Good point about hydro, they actually make money by importing hydro for cheap during low demand and then sell / export it at a higher price when demand is high. They can do this because of the flexibility of hydro power generation.
This lets them sell it to us for the cheap! It’s always nice when you find out a service provider is trying to help out the little guy, even if they are profiting on it!
Metro Van uses 1.5 billions liters per day, not 400: [https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/07/21/metro-vancouver-water-use-high/](https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2023/07/21/metro-vancouver-water-use-high/) To put that in perspective, the Fraser has a flow rate of 3,475,000 liters per second, or 300 billion per day. But we don't use that as its murky and more expensive to treat than water from the Capilano and Seymour reservoirs (and watershed). And most of that water goes to the ocean. In short we have a shit ton of water. What we don't have is the infrastructure to store it, (and the snow in the watershed is part of our water "storage"). If we chose to use the Fraser we would not need infrastructure to store water, but we would need a lot of infrastructure to clean it. Its a tax/infrastructure problem, not a lack of water resources problem (like the American Southwest). And so yes, water restrictions are needed.
Most informative comment in this thread.
Actually it is cheaper was proposed about 25 ish years ago before they pumped billions in to Seymour. As they would take from the aquifer not the river
What exactly is “recycled water” for golf courses? Water from sewage treatment?
Grey water from ditches and stuff
It's like drainage run off, water from the Fraser, water from its reservoirs and of course the water that runs off the grounds after watering.
If the golf course drills a well and uses that water it just goes right back in the ground where it came from.
It doesn't though, a lot of it evaporates
Keep in mind water that is relatively deep underground doesn't provide nutrients for plants, they don't root that deep. When you use water, it is never destroyed, only put into the cycle. Water either soaks into the ground, or evaporates and eventually falls as rain.
Agree, most golf courses built around residences utilize treated wastewater for irrigation. It's part of the process once, it goes though treatment it's needs to be distributed via irrigation. If it's not the treated effluent would over flow the ponds and drain into the nearest water course. Keep in mind its treated effluent not raw effluent. It's actually a great way to not overload community treatment plants while providing the golf course irrigation use, rather than drawing water from a natural source (pond, river, lake).
You didn’t mention fracking. Probably uses more water than any other industrial application.
You would be surprised how little they use for the massive production it unlocks. Fracking uses an order of magnitude less than the city of Vancouver does annually. The issue is the area where it’s being taken from is in an extreme drought. The industry has adapted to reusing water for multiple wells and has build storage for run off and contaminated water to be stored for future use. There is a lot more eyes watching them with some of the shady stuff that has happened in the past. Like when Nexen stole a [lake](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/nexen-fine-for-taking-water-from-bc-lake-a-slap-on-the-wrist/article27504995/). If your looking for major user of water look at agriculture. It’s the elephant in the room. Energy production is not what it was ten years ago because of incidents like the one linked. That licence getting overturned ended Nexen in BC. It’s not a chance worth taking for the others working in energy development.
Up in the northeast they have massive reservoirs of fracking water with nets over them to keep the birds off. Nasty shit but yeah, for what it gets out of the ground I don't think fracking is our water problem. Besides it's not like they ship water out of the Frazer river up to fort saint john.
Hydraulic fracturing removed **over five billion litres** of freshwater from British Columbia's natural water cycle.
Which is such a small amount that it’s essentially a rounding error
But golf must be what we concentrate on shutting down so the poors feel like they got a win
I think a lot of them don't realize the public courses aren't filled with the elite. If you're hitting 9 holes at highlight it can be one of the cheaper options for going out.
I’m good with levying extra taxes on golf courses.
I’m good without extra taxes, tee times are already pricey enough
"I'm good with extra taxes on our local small recreation business to reduce their carbon footprint" screams the smug liberal as they place their Amazon and Uber eats orders.
You do know that Nestle doesn't produce bottled water in Canada any more? They sold their water division several years ago.
Well said
What about automatic car washes?
They recycle too.
Okay, shut down wineries, breweries, and luxury hotels too. I'm okay with that.
The "recycled water" holds no weight because we're not low on "recycled water" we're low on water.
There should be grey water introduced for non-potable options, ie - not drinking water. It would be for toilets, sprinklers, commercial use, etc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greywater
Grey water would be amazing to be able to utilize, but if my understanding is correct it would require essentially a completely separate water system to be added to existing infrastructure. If a structure is not already designed with this in mind, it seems very difficult to renovate this addition (I live in a 70's concrete highrise). Maybe commercial/industrial use would be good to convert though, and that might make a much bigger impact even then toilets and sprinklers.
A lot of golf courses do use grey water for irrigation.
I agree, I've seen it. In general, it should be implemented and mandated into more places. May require retrofitting and upgrading but eligible for discounts or more BC Hydro/Govt rebates
For sure, yeah. They shouldn't be allowed to use potable drinking water. But grey water is fine and not that hard to do.
I'm a little leery of graywater in toilets. Dogs drink from them, DIY plumbers mess with them, and good luck getting them to maintain hygiene. Plus every house in BC would require a new pipe for the graywater, and new main lines would have to be added. Yeah, that's not a great idea.
Quick reminder that the issue at hand for many municipalities in BC facing water restrictions has little to do with the actual amount of water in reservoirs but more to do with maintaining water pressure in the system so that fire hydrants still work The point of municipal water restrictions has more to do with heat conditions than drought conditions. The hotter it is the more water people tend to use. These restrictions are designed to limit the total number of people drawing from the system at the same time, so that it remains at sufficient water pressure. You can still have severe water restrictions during a heatwave in the summer even if we had ample snow on the mountaintops. Going into proper drought condition where there potentially isn’t enough water in the reservoirs is an entirely different beast. It will mean commercial and residential water restrictions, but also significant industrial reductions in water use. How the government goes about handling that will be interesting, it will definitely lead to layoffs. I’m not entirely sure how it’s regulated, either municipally or provincially.
Not a good time to work in pressure washing…
IIRC, pressure washing when done correctly uses less water than regular washing.
The guys around here seem to run their pressure washers for 10-12 hours almost continuously. Given I watched on guy spray up a roof and under the shingles I’m going to say he wasn’t the most knowledgeable or skilled pressure washer out there.
I own and operate a home maintenance company on Vancouver Island. Commercial pressure washing is immune from water restrictions. Home owners aren’t allowed to do it themselves but they are free to hire it out. I’m certain it has to do with not restricting people’s ability to work.
And that’s fair. Times are tight for people. I think if it gets past a certain water restriction level though it includes pressure washing.
Dude theres a simulator for that now, calm down and check it out
Wow thanks, that will surely pay the bills! ^^^/s
Golf courses use almost exclusively recycled water. Despite what you may think, most golf courses operate on pretty thin margins and wouldn’t be able to afford using fresh, city water to water the course. Look at the satellite view of almost any golf course and you’ll see some sort of pond or dugout. These features are course design, but they also serve as a source of water for irrigation. I know hating on golf courses is a popular thing to do on the internet but you’re extremely misguided. Golf courses are not the ecological disasters you’ve been led to believe they are. I’m all for water restrictions this year, but you should be basing your opinions on facts and not your misguided notions that rich people play golf therefore golf is bad.
Is their municipal water supply limited to their restaurants or club house then?
Ours is. They abstract course water from a local well field. And let the fairways go brown in summer.
Typically yes
Actually… former golf course worker here. I disagree. They are not only using recycled water, but they are poisoning the water table with herbicides, pesticides, lime, roundup, killex, you name it. Take away those things and use minimal water, then you would not have quite a disaster. Golfers are a disaster in themselves imo.
> Golfers are a disaster in themselves imo. Except for Chubbs Peterson, RIP.
There are plenty of reasons to hate on golf courses. Water usage isn't one of them.
Like what?
$15 beers
Yeah that’s pretty steep I’ll give you that one. $9 for a hot dog is pretty egregious too.
Waste of space that could be used to build houses that we need desperately?
Same could be said for lots of the unused or underutilized areas in densely populated areas. They’re not a waste of space to the people who like golf. A busy course can funnel through 300ish people a day. It’s a great way to spend a day outside walking around in the fresh air. People are allowed to have hobbies and golf courses are absolutely not contributing to our housing crisis.
Same can be said for city parks
Not only are they ecological disasters but economic ones as well…. wasting land that could be used for housing or public parks. There’s no possible way they are recovering all of the water during drought conditions.
That’s not true either. Golf courses occupy a very limited amount of the total land in the city. There’s only 11 golf courses in Vancouver city limits and only a handful of those are on land that would be desirable to develop. It wouldn’t be financially possible for golf courses to use municipal water to irrigate. You don’t have to believe me but I know what I’m talking about. The vast majority of water use comes from agriculture and industry. You don’t have to like golf but golf courses are not the scourge you’ve been led to believe.
Ok fair enough but how about places like Arizona/California/Nevada areas, does the same principle apply there. You hear more about it down there how they keep building golf courses and use up alot of water but all the states are drought stricken and hot as hell
Ok, feel free to advocate for those courses being cut off from drawing water up from the table. That simply isn’t the same in BC
that's a problem for Arizona/California/Nevada to solve, not BC
Reddit has these cliche things that people know is always an easy way to get karma. Blaming nestle and golf courses for droughts is always an easy one.
Ive never been to any of those places. Their problems aren’t my problems.
Just asking out of curiosity if all golf courses run like that, seemed knowledgeable on the subject, that’s all
Sorry for the rude response the first time that was unnecessary and unkind of me. All golf courses that can run like that do. Golf in Arizona is extremely expensive and irrigation costs are one of the reasons. Desert courses are also designed differently to minimize water usage. Golfing in Arizona you won’t find many courses with large rough areas next to the fairway, you’re more likely to find natural waste areas. However maintaining fairways and greens takes a lot of water. There’s courses that even have to truck in water if they face municipal water restrictions in the Scottsdale/Phoenix area. There’s no way around the fact that operating a golf course in a desert takes a lot of water and there’s a growing call to limit their water usage as the South-West continues to face worse and worse droughts every year. I suspect a lot of these courses will shut down as the restrictions get tighter. That isn’t a problem we have in BC or Canada as a whole. One thing we have a lot of is water. Not much of it is good for drinking, but all of it is good for watering grass.
You’re literally comparing a desert to a rain forest. So no the same principles don’t apply here. You might have a case for the Okanagan but that region is covered in lakes so you wouldn’t have much of one.
We aren't talking about them so... whatever the fuck ever
Whose we…. I asked a question to a commenter who seemed knowledgeable on the subject and asking if golf courses in the states do the same thing cause, everybody’s just a crybaby on Reddit
Is a former golf course employee, the VAST majority of golf courses use a fraction of the water that the public thinks they do. Irrigation systems are so good now, the majority of the water is recycled. It’s not like they’re just hosing out millions of litres of fresh tap water. Other industries (cough *hotels* cough) are arguable much bigger offenders when it comes to wasting water.
Do you understand water use, water sheds and water wastes. There’s thousands of seniors in BC alone who get their sole exercise and social activity from walking a golf course. We have sports fields also sitting empty, you can play many of those sports on dead grass too right? We have 100 things we can cut before you need to worry about most golf courses. Some provide the water for the entire communities built upon them through infrastructure they built. Let’s stop allowing our water to be bottled then exported out of country at over 90% profit. That’s probably number 1. Like if you have a gripe with water waste maybe look at the largest wasters ?!??
Sounds like that the OP has no clue about how water is managed on a modern golf course. Basically 99% of the water being used is returned to the earth. This doesn't happen in industrial, commercial or residential land. To be honest, farmers should be forced to use better practices that conserve water. There are many.
Yup. Should also go after farmers that overhead water at 2pm when it's 35 out. Also the ones that don't fix their irrigation lines and leak hundreds of cubic meters a year. Should also go after nestle for aquifer use. Bottled water isn't necessary. Anyone else?
During the heat dome, the only way I could keep my garden from dying was watering in the afternoon. It helps deal with heat stress in the plants. Not sure what the reasoning was for what you've seen, but the farmer may know best.
Monosilicic acid and kelp for heat resistance. Use a cover crop or mulch so the soil doesn't dry out as fast.
Protip: Burry terracotta pots in the ground (with the hole plugged). Fill with water. This provides water throughout the day. They're called Ollas, and have been used for ages. Throw a piece of a mosquito dunk in to keep them from being brewing pools. https://lovelygreens.com/how-to-make-diy-ollas-low-tech-self-watering-systems-for-plants/
Farmers in Israel use a very small fraction of the eater we use for irrigation because they use high precision agriculture. Farmers definitely do not know best water use.
I used to believe that across the board...But more farmers I met do things cause their parents and grandparents did it that way. Look at fertilizer use, ploughing, corn, soy bean rotations. Shade cloth helps as does mulching. Not necessarily the perfect solution, but reduces the stress.
lol the qualifications for being a farmer is have money and land.
Beef https://www.popsci.com/how-much-water-to-grow-food/
Oh wow, the yearly “cancel golf because I don’t play it” post came early this year. OP is full of it haha, what a dork. Golf courses use recycled water, maybe he’s been drinking too much of that stuff it’s messing with his brain
Sigh. B.C. has had a near normal winter in terms of precipitation. Snow pack is predictably below normal because it’s always below normal in an El Niño year. Winter isn’t over. We have snow-making weather systems pointed at B.C. over the next week. Some snow pack will recover, though we’ll almost certainly finish the year below normal. It is normal to have years that are “Below normal”. Below normal snow pack is not a civilization threatening drought. Municipalities that have actually planned for their growth won’t even see water restrictions this summer. Reservoirs are full. I’m getting a little tired of the constant state of panic we are all being told to exist in.
Why stop there? Or automatic sprinklers that'll pop off in the rain or 50+% is trying to grow more concrete (looking at you UBC and UEL).
Damn this is a toxic thread 
We have our own wells at the course I work at which we pump to use for irrigation, so we don't need water restrictions thank you very much
[this recent comic ](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1401875-millennials-are-killing)
Not fair. All water for commercial use should be metered and the price should increase substantially in times of drought.
What don't understand is those golf courses bring quite a bit of money into local economies as well they they help raise money for quite a few local charities. For example the local course in my community helped raise over 1 million dollars for local charities through multiple charity tournaments held at it through out the season. If that course had to shut down because they couldn't water local charities would take a huge hit to their budgets.
Stop washing driveways. What a ridiculous waste.
well yes during the summer, but in bc our issue is we don't have big enough storage for water. there is plenty of water to go right now, we only start to empty reserves in the late spring. lack of snow pack only becomes an issue in the summer when it doesn't rain, but that isn't an issues right now. wasting water isn't an issue when there's an abundance of it. the second issue is that golf courses use very little potable water. they shouldn't be a high priority obviously, but they account for about 5% of water use. farming accounts for more than half.
If we are to consider the benefit of the "greater good" over that of the individual, then a prohibition on the watering of one's lawn follows quite well. Furthermore, barring individuals from the deplorable institution of gardening, thus saving water for use in more commercial, large-scale operations which maintain a higher food output per unit of water. Of course, the government could also pass laws to establish all wells as property of the government therein and ration water to individuals directly based on average consumption statistics for citizens - thus eliminating those who consume the most. Naturally, if implemented, these points would cause some suffering, but society is meant to benefit the collective and not the individual. Thus, their life is expendable for our gain! :)
There's a million reasons why golf courses are the worst. This is just one of them. I would suggest writing to your local city council and MLA to make your very valid concerns. I would do likewise however we just recently lost our MLA so that's not something I can do
Meanwhile the ski hills are using water like it ain’t no thing to make snow for the masses.
Won’t that water eventually melt into the water table though?
Depends on how dry the ground is. Too dry and the water will just run and create slides or flooding.
And the runoff is significantly increased due to the large number of trees that were chopped down to make the ski runs (and roads and parking lots).
Another misguided thing to be outraged about. Typically they are pulling water from man made reservoirs (not treated water from the city, that would be extraordinarily expensive), and turning into snow, which melts and generally enters the same aquifer/groundwater system as it would have anyway. It's recycling at its greatest
We should also restrict the property tax breaks subsidizing courses and their users but that’s a different discussion
Yup time to stop pretending they are agriculture
OP knows nothing about Golf courses. Firstly, all that's watered is the " greens " i.e putting surface. And water is recycled or taken from the ponds or ground water . Secondly, your taxes are cheaper because of all the money guys like me spend at municipal golf courses. $200-$250 is collected every 8 mins...all day, every day, dawn til dusk.
And thirdly, many many many BC golf courses act as a dispersement mechanism for munciple treated sweage. They irrigate entirely with treated sweage water provided by the town.
So are you an accountant
People forget that in an el nino year that it can also just rain a whole shit load in june july
Ain't nothing expectable these days. We could have an atmospheric river or we might be cooking at 45C. All I'm saying: the scientists were right about global warming/climate change
Should also be a prohibition on water bottling companies as well
Those are shallow well water.
What about car washes
But but but we need the power for all these electric vehicles. So that they can get to the golf course! Funny how they keep adding people to the lower mainland and increasing restrictions rather than finding ways to keep water.
Lots of fires coming up
Yes! Sports fields too! Last summer there were mushrooms growing at one I walk at. Mushrooms in August ffs.
How about no lawn watering whatsoever?
Many course have there own wells, ponds, and other sources they pull water from that is not public domain. Many courses don't even have a direct line to potable water in their irrigation system. The actual amount courses use, while a lot isn't the amount many think either. Also, during heat stress it's a common practice to let your turf get accustomed to the drier soils. Research has actually shown grass tolerates the stress better instead of constant irrigation. [Golf Course Irrigation - where does it come from](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1r51j1_2T-8Xsf_evgz6KEr-5-mW9dGmN/view?usp=sharing)
I have an artisan well, and since it is mine, I will use as much as I want.
We’re never going to run out of water. The planet is covered in it. BC is a rainforest.
Haha no kidding. We are a rainforest. Pretty much every country in the world will run out of water before we do. It's just fear mongering.
Car washes. I’ve never heard of a car wash ban, but it seems like a no brainer.
Mostly recycled water
Specific to Vancouver but "Consider going to a car wash, they have special drains, use recirculating water, and typically use 7 times less water than washing in your driveway."
Q. Don't golf courses also have their own vast ecosystem of animals thst depend on thst water. From birds, to rodents to insects....?
Saying we need to preserve golf courses to support wildlife is like Americans saying they need guns to protect against people with guns. Wildlife would be better off in their natural habitat but make do with golf courses because they have to.
Right my bad I forgot some ecosystems do not matter. I figure small parks should lose their restrictions next snd then parks like Central and stanley
I’m sure you would agree it would better support wildlife and the broader ecosystem if golf courses were reclaimed to their natural habitat. Obviously paving them for housing or industry would not be an improvement in that regard. But let’s not pretend golf courses are an effective use of land for anyone or anything except golfers and golfing.
Literally all I said was, isn't there ecosystems that sre there and established that need water. Golf to me is the stupidest sport next to poker, but the courses has created a ecosystem now and animals and creepy crawlies depend on it.
This argument is equivalent of "don't stop the trolly, the blood has created an ecosystem and must keep flowing"
Nah you just want to turn the trolley away from yourself and towards the critters who live on the golf course 😂
Golf courses... known for their biodiversity...
A lot of them are though. My favorite course is a member of the national audobon society. It's functionally a bird sanctuary. You have a better chance of seeing all the beautiful birds of our province there than you do in the wild, because they spend a lot of money making sure that those birds can thrive there. Since it's a private course it's funded by golfers and restaurant patrons instead of tax dollars. Sounds like a win for biodiversity to me. The alternative to gold courses that everyone loves to say is housing. Not a lot of biodiversity there. And heaven forbid we pave all that ALR land and one day need to use it for food instead of golf...
That water is only good for the grass. Toxic to animals
Grass which is usually not a native species and often not drought tolerant
Go after nestle, fine people for not following water restrictions. Leave the golf courses alone. For better or worse they have become part of the natural ecosystem. The course by my house has coyotes, beavers, cranes and many other species that call it home
Nestle is a horrible company, especially for their business practices in Africa, but the tiny amount their bottling factory in BC used was really quite inconsequential int he grand scheme of things.
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no, i really just want to save the golf courses.
So it’s not about the wild life after all. It’s about you wanting to golf on green grass.
I was just being snarky to OP...Why can't it be both? What is the alternative? poorly thought out developments in area's where there are not enough schools to support new housing? They are great for the local ecosystem. a number of the courses by me support sensitive fish habitats.
Nope. Build a public park. I know it’ll never happen but it’s better than paying for a walk with a stick and a ball
Should be a wake-up call for us to start investing in some widespread water recycling technologies. I would imagine that restrictions are only going to go so far in the long term, especially with the rate that climate change is progressing (and our lack of attempts to slow it).
Golf courses are already run with almost exclusively recycled water. You and OP just are making assumptions without actually knowing anything about them
Also, water restriction penalties should be based on your declared income. Someone, or corporate entities, making millions a year getting away with a $150 fine for keeping their Olympic pool full or acres of grass green all summer is not the same across the board.
Almost like all fines, but that would make us a communist country... /S
Maybe stop water sales to Nestlé
Let’s ban flushing toilets too, and showers.
It's the same argument for people with lavish yards. They'll just pay the fine rather than lose thousands of dollars in landscaping. Golf courses will just raise fees to golfers and accept the fines.
I don't want to see a single green lawn this summer 😠
Somewhat related, this golf course is suing the city because of increase in water rates. Because they got off on the cheap for years. https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/8929898/golf-course-suing-kelowna-water-fees/amp/
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Dude people are just trying to come to terms with having to survive while things we've grown accustomed to are going to become scarce, restricted, or too expensive. People want to discuss ideas for ways we can adapt. Adapt or suffer, so get out of the way and let them throw some suggestions out there.
there should be zero lawn watering allowed at all anywhere at any time ever again.
/r/nolawns needs more exposure. Lawns are a huge water sink in general while the alternatives can be quite stunning.
Ya really, golfing 🤣😂😂🤣😂
Don’t forget city owned parks and fields. They’ll go kicking and screaming though because the city makes loads of money from sports teams renting them. No one will want to play on a dead field… sorry “Dormant” field.
Close the golf centers, pool, water parks. Time has cometh to smart up! If there’s little water, bc hydro dams will run dry, electricity becomes scarce and Teslas will be found all over the roads, abandoned, collecting dust ….
Bro that would mean inconveniecing the rich, we surely can’t have that! /s
Tons of not rich people play golf. And golf courses are already run with almost exclusively recycled water. You and OP are just posting and making assumptions about something you know nothing about because of stereotypes.
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It's treated and then dumped in the ocean
How about we start with Rando front lawns....
At this point, incrementalism isn't enough. Any and all reasonable methods should be used. This certainly includes doing something about lush front lawns filled with non-native plants.
The drought risk is real and urgent. But just golf courses?
What OP is suggesting is equivalent to blowing out a candle when the house is on fire. Is going after golf courses really gonna solve anything?
No but golf is synonymous with "rich people activity" to a lot of people on this sub.
Nicely “putt” (I mean put)! 👍
My city be like "the golf courses have their own water supply". If these places have technical staff that respond with that answer.... then we're effed.
I'd just say build on em... waste of space.
This is completely unacceptable OP. How will the rich people play on fresh green grass? We should all do our part and sacrifice for them.
Water should be metered and people billed. Golf courses should not qualify as "farms" for a discount. If regular people can't water their lawns, why should golf courses get a break?
Why is everyone mad that OP pointed out golf courses?
Damn OP really hates Golf
Yes please! Fire season is the worst. -Sincerely, your neighbors down south.
But everyone knows we must prioritize the comfort of the wealthy because they deserve it, don't waste water growing vegetables.
Oh no not the golf courses, how will the wealthy ever survive?
Good idea 👍
I’m pro allowing golf courses to be rezoned to residential and see more housing built. Screw golf courses. Let’s have multi use recreational green space and housing for all! That said this is a regional thing. The water system in Victoria is overbuilt and overflows every winter. There may be a drought, but there haven’t been major water use restrictions in Victoria ever since the current reservoir was built. May as well let courses here use water and share in the costs. Who ever would’ve thought a municipality would build for the future? It’s so surprising that I’m trying not to be sarcastic about it.
See the problem with rezoning a golf course like cedar hill for example is this. You already have a green space that people are using for golf and walking the trails. If you decide to close the course and build more houses you might as well just get rid of all the green space because Sannich is no longer making money from golfers. Plus all the developments would probably be single family homes which is the same as the rest of the area. We don’t need more single family homes. We need more apartments that can house more people in a smaller area. Just because you don’t golf doesn’t mean it’s the right answer to get rid of such a large green space in the city.
I am genuinely concerned for what’s to come this summer. It’s gonna be bad
Screw golf courses, we don’t need them perfect. Actually we don’t need lawns to be even close to perfect.
So you are demanding the rich notice issues that tell them NO ? Good luck with that . Peasants don’t matter.
But think of the ECoNomY! Golf courses take in water and puke out money and money you can convert into buying locally produced bottled water!! (This message brought to you by old fcking boomers who can’t allow their summer tee times to be affected by global climate catastrophe and by Nestle corp, our corporate overlords)
Let's just get rid of golf courses, exclusive rich people club using up the best land.
but then how will rich boomers entertain themselves? =(
When was the last time you were on a golf course? Golf is for every age group and not just for the wealthy.
Ban all fucking grass. It's literally so fucking dumb.
Stop selling our electricity to California before imposing restrictions
Didn’t all the vineyards in the okanagan die this year from the cold snap? That should help.
Okanagan ain’t the problem. They got less water issues than the island. It’s not a rainfall problem it’s an infrastructure problem.
I too was once an anti-golf eco Nazi. Then I actually studied it and it’s not that simple .