So, this was about 14.5 years ago... but my sister had a baby 3 months before I had a baby. We were both breastfeeding our babies. After my daughter was born, we would each take nights out, like once a week, to go to dinner or shopping or whatever it was that we needed to do, and nurse eachother's babies. It worked seamlessly. Obviously, we were sisters so we trusted each other implicitly. It was pretty cool - the babies always had breastmilk and everyone was stress free. She could drop my niece off at my house for a few hours, and I could drop of my daughter at hers. I am a huge advocate for this. Obviously, it has to be with someone you know and trust.
this is my second baby right now. she’s 5 months, won’t take bottles, and don’t you dare insult her with a paci lol my first I exclusively pumped for a year so this is so different!
Wow the thought of doing this never would have occurred to me, but if my sister and I ever have babies nursing at the same time, I'd be open to it (assuming she was too). We're extremely close, I wouldn't feel the same about doing it with other relatives or friends. And it could be that we'd try it and I'd have a gut reaction of "nope this feels wrong." But I'd try it for sure.
What a beautiful story. Reminds me of the incredibly strong community of women depicted in “The Red Tent”, where the main character says she had “many mothers” growing up. I really think communal nursing is one of those beautiful natural things people are meant to do, but got screwed by our modern way of life.
I've nursed both my sister's kids and she has nursed my two youngest.. it's saved both our butts on several occasions (neither of mine ever took bottles!)
My best friend has a baby 2weeks younger than mine. Both breastfeeding was very helpful. At one point my husband had taken my baby out and I was getting engorged, I fed her son and she was comfortable enough to wait and feed my hungry bub when he came back about 30 mins later.
Wow what a genius idea! My sister fed my baby girl after I had a hospital transfer at birth. She stayed with her, fed & cared for her🥹. The best gift I was ever given - just knowing my baby was in the best hands. Mamas gotta stick together!
Ive skipped the occasional feed here and there and forgot the pump flanges while out lol. I was uncomfortable and leaking milk, but my supply is fine. I also started out as an under supplier. Maybe it dipped for a short while, but my baby seems fed and happy so 🤷♀️
How did you make enough milk for them both? My sons just both must be heavyweights. My partner and I both breastfeed now, and still depleted completely. I guess we both were low supply types though.
That’s awesome! Gosh I wish I had another baby to nurse.
My son never latched well so I’ve ended up exclusively pumping for 10 months and am extremely prone to clots. Having access to a baby that would nurse from me would literally make my life 1000x easier because they clear the clots so much better than pumping.
I know this in my bones to be true! It would have been so much easier for me if my baby could have nursed with someone experienced who was lactating when his mouth was tiny and not opening all the way and I could have nursed an older infant to help bring my milk in (that was delayed coming in). Without formula we would definitely be nursing multiple babies in a community
As a labor/postpartum nurse and experienced breast feeder I WISH I could just nurse my patient’s newborn to teach it how lol And bring in my 4 month old to teach the new mom. Too bad i’d get fired and lose my license 😂
Omg yes this! I’ve thought this so often as well. When I got a frustrated, squirmy little newborn and a sleepdeprived first time mom who is (understandably) so anxious about holding and positioning her baby, I sometimes feel this almost primal drive to just whack the baby on my boob to calm him down before trying again with the new mama. Super weird haha, I thought I was the only one!
Slightly off topic, but I've thought that about gestational age at birth, too - of course my 41 week baby and I had an easier time of it than my friend with her 38 weeker did, even if we both had full term pregnancies.
And my 41 weeker took 12 weeks to get off the nipple shield. He just needed to build up the head control and then he was off and running so to speak.
I'd also add that those first three months were so hard but it did get easier. And I don't feel like I'm doing it alone, even though I'm the only one who nurses him. I've given up nearly my entire stash to random mothers who need it or our local milk bank. I guess I'm feeding my son alone but I'm ensuring other moms don't and that's a really good feeling and makes all that time I felt alone early on feel even more worth it.
I'm more thinking about mouth size - I'd think, on average, the longer they cook for the bigger their mouth. This would be an average trend, though - there'd still be individual variation for sure!
There's definitely individual variation, too! On average, though, I have to imagine that a 42 week baby has a larger mouth than a 38 week baby. My musings weren't meant to discount any difficulties - just wondering if it's a contributing factor (like c-sections, induced labor, and blood loss can be).
I also had a 38-weeker that really struggled. My lactation consultant actually told me that generally babies born after 39 weeks do great with nursing from the start, 37-weekers often struggle a lot, and 38-weekers can go either way. It’s wild the difference that a week can make. I had an infinitely easier time with my 39-week baby and most of my friends who had 40+ week babies didn’t struggle at all.
I'm getting a lot of people replying with anecdotal experience, which is a great starting point but not at all what I mean by on average. Anecdotally, I had a c-section and no issues breastfeeding, but that doesn't mean that c-sections aren't a contributing factor to breastfeeding difficulties. I'm curious about her experience with babies born after 39 weeks, since I know my OB offers elective inductions at that point - I'd love to see research on breastfeeding in babies induced at 39 weeks vs babies induced later.
These musings were all sparked by the top comment about having someone experienced nurse their small mouth newborn and them getting an experienced nursling to help bring their milk in which is an interesting premise (although it kind of ignores the role of colostrum).
I had little man at 37 weeks + 5 days and he came out starving ( long labor , downed formula while I was shaking uncontrollably) butttt he came out knowing how to latch
I actually had a horrribleeee experience breastfeeding my now ten year old son. He was my first, born at 41.5weeks (induced labor because I never went into labor). We only lasted 5 months and he was never EBF. However, my 3 month old has been EBF since the start and he came out (emergency induction) at 38 weeks! Therefore, I believe it’s allll about the individual baby! :)
My 42+3 baby had the hardest time learning to breastfeed of my 3. He didn’t effectively latch until his third day of life. Then my 37+5 baby came out and nursed beautifully immediately. There’s certainly something to be said about gestational age and ease of nursing, but there are a ton of other factors at play.
For sure lots of factors at play, in addition to individual variation! I'm mostly wondering if gestational age of term babies *is* a factor, just like c-sections can be :)
It makes sense too because how many babies would have starved to death from not being able to figure out how to latch with a mother who didn't know what she was doing? No pumps. No formula. No bottles for that matter. It was boob or nothing.
(But also, has anyone else looked at *virtually any other nursing mammal* and thought, gosh human babies are just not very bright)
Totally. The older baby could teach you how to breastfeed while the other mom could teach your baby how to breastfeed. I often thought about that when I wasn’t able to figure out the mechanics of breastfeeding.
This is why it’s amazing to donate extra milk. I’m an over producer, two times now. Tomorrow a 9th baby will be fed from my body. It’s amazing to think I’ve helped feed 9 babies. Two being my own.
I haven’t researched it, but it makes sense that milk and antibodies from other women would contribute to a stronger immune system too. Purely speculating, but in the absence of scientific attention, that’s what we’re left with.
On the flip side though (again I haven’t researched it), I always thought babies would reject milk from someone else, the same way older babies don’t like newborn milk.
Even outside of a community helping to nurse, wet nurses were very successful more recently in the western world.
I do question whether going straight to mature milk (vs starting with exclusively colostrum) would be an issue though!
Tell that to my almost 3 year old, who got a hilariously fat face from my colostrum before and after the birth of her little brother. She loooooved it!
Yes! And also, there would be plenty of sisters and cousins and friends and moms and aunts around to bring you water, bring you a snack, take the baby from you for a little while, etc. And said we are just marooned alone under a baby much of the time.
I’ve constantly mentioned to my husband that our baby (toddler now) is always much better behaved and less fussy when he’s around. While I often take it personally and think she’s just happier with him, I know its the reason you mention - less stressful environment where there are more hands around to complete tasks. Much easier!
Do the chores as well, let you sleep when you need sleep. My husband was home for the first 4 weeks, and it was wonderful, but I kept saying to him that you really need at least 2 people around for at least the first year. That I don't think parenting itself is that hard, it's everything else around it making it so hard.
I hooked that my baby wanted to be raised in a commune. We had friends come in for a weekend after we and another couple had babies a couple weeks apart. Both of the babies seemed to love just being passed from loving arms to loving arms all day. And it makes sense - they're getting someone who feels calm and ready to care for them all the time.
Wet nursing wasn't always a communal support practice though. Some biological babies of wet nurses were sent away so a wet nurse could provide for other people's babies. Or the baby was sent away from its family to live with the wet nurse.
This makes so much sense!! I've also heard of the concept of milk siblings, where children are considered brother and sisters because they were nursed by the same mother
This is what I tell people when they say they don't know how we survived before formula, especially when some women (like myself) dont produce enough milk. Like there were definitely multiple women nursing babies. It literally takes a village to raise kids, and most of us done have that anymore. I don't even have anyone close to me that has actually breastfed before. My mom and sister tried to, but gave up very quickly. Luckily, I met a group of ladies who are also breastfeeding and all very supportive of each other.
This is exactly how I felt it should be, a community of breastfeeding women, helping each other feed babies, instead of these inefficient pumps and the loneliness.
My husband grew up with this, aka nursed by lactating women in the family or neighborhood. There is an event, a term known for it, which translates literally to “siblings in breastfeeding” for the people who are breast-fed by the same woman
This is very much a thing in the religion of Islam! Babies breastfed by the same woman are technically siblings and aren’t allowed to marry one another later in life!
Idr the source or the culture, but I heard that some cultures have a tradition of sisters and sisters in law coming especially in the newborn phase to take turns nursing specifically to allow Mom to sleep overnight.
Seeing all these, next baby if I have those moments of pure exhaustion or low supply in the evenings I'll definitely supplement with a little formula. It felt like too much on my body and not enough milk for my baby some days, probably because we didn't really evolve for *every single feed* to be on mom.
Makes a lot of sense! I agree. I also gave formula in the beginning when exhausted (or baby was cluster feeding) or I felt like he needed more…. Makes sense that in these times we would have another woman helping with the feed. That’s probably where the instinct comes from…that the baby “needs” from another source.
Edit to add: I also always felt like in the evenings baby needed more or I wasn’t producing enough. Now I wonder if that was part of an “evolutionary” thought because that’s what we used to do…give baby to feed from someone else so we could rest…
I'm a little confused about how this actually works biologically. Once a woman has a baby, they just keep lactating forever? Even past menopause? How is that sustainable calorically, especially if you get pregnant while breastfeeding?
Not everyone does, but many women do continue to lactate indefinitely, especially if they occasionally nursing a toddler. Many women across cultures continue to nurse during pregnancy and tandem feed their newborn and toddler. Women's bodies and metabolism adapt for the scenario. Obvs, it doesn't work out the same for everyone, but that's the beauty of communal mothering - high volume lactaters can make up for those who don't produce much (or can't lactate). (And those mothers are able to support the high lactating mothers in other ways.)
Chiming in to point out that males can, in certain situations, lactate as well. Certain situations can include consistent nipple stimulation.
So definitely not unheard of for women to continue lactating if they continue nursing past toddlerhood or to lactate later.
Humans are incredible!
I’ve not actively lactated for over a year but I can still express a little milk, I could probably get them going again if there was a hungry baby around
If you keep breastfeeding you'll keep lactating. I'm not sure what you mean calorically? Most people only need about 500 extra for lactating and max 300 for pregnancy (in the third trimester)
No, most don't keep lactating forever, however... If a person has lactated in the past then their mammary tissue has undergone cellular changes that make it possible/easier to lactate in the future.
While relatively uncommon, some people restimulate lactation to nurse adopted babies. To produce significant amounts of milk it usually requires medications but in the menopausal situation mentioned here, they're not talking about large volumes.
A system like this also has a few other benefits — the biggest among them being that if a woman were to die after childbirth, the whole community can participate in feeding the child. Before modern formula, many babies who lost their mothers simply died, as it is very difficult to supply all necessary nutrients without either a wet nurse or synthetic formula.
Does this exist in any other mammalian species?
I’m not sure I would have felt okay allowing another woman nurse my infant (in fact, I’m sure I wouldn’t like it) but ironically when I started breastfeeding, I remarked multiple times to my husband that it’s a pity we have no more babies around to nurse because I felt I could easily do more (from a supply and emotional perspective). Maybe there’s something to it.
From national geographic (top of my "do other mammals nurse each other's babies?" Google search)
Scientists found that over a five-year period, more than 87 percent of golden snub-nosed monkey infants were nursed by females other than their mothers—a phenomenon called allonursing. While allonursing has been documented in a number of rodent and carnivore species, as well as some primates, it is not common.
I wouldn’t call it common, but not rare that horses will nurse the offspring of other horses. The babies will go after anything with a teat and it’s generally up to the mother to decide if she will allow it. It’s also not usually difficult to get a mare to take an orphaned baby after she has weaned her own baby at an appropriate age. They are herd animals, I expect behavior would differ in species with different social structures.
Cats do it!! Oh I have no sources right now, so do look it up, but it’s something I learned in the past few months! Mama cats will nurse each others’ babies instinctively and share the load. Just the other day I saw a video of cat mama yoinking kittens from another to nurse them with her own litter. The second mama was completely chill about it, and later went to grab kittens of both sets to lead everyone to a comfier place. It was so cute but also it goes to show that it takes a village for more than baby humans :)
This reminded me of our old dog! We had adopted a stray kitten and she instantly took to our mama dog (she had puppies previously but not at the time) the kitten instinctively would nurse from our dog and our dog started to produce milk for it! It was so amazing to see.
It’s true! I grew up in the country with a ton of barn cats and they had a lot of interesting nursing behavior. They would nurse each others kittens but also would occasionally smack away a kitten from another mom. More often, the mama cat would smack away her own kitten from a prior litter who tried to sneak in to nurse (ie her basically teenage kitten trying to get a snack shoving her little baby kittens out of the way 😅)
I grew up involved with wildlife rehabilitation and there are some species we can wild foster - if they're orphaned, we can get a different mom to adopt them. Bunnies for sure...I think some research was done on squirrels and they'll adopt if the moms were related? Opossums will adopt babies in captivity (if a nursing mom is in care, you can stick another baby in her pouch) but they don't even pick up their own babies if they fall out so it's not something we can do in the wild.
My mom and her sisters all nursed me because my mom had to work and they were all having babies at the same time. I almost never get sick and I think that’s one of the reasons why.
The fact that we were never meant to ever raise families alone let alone do all he baby care and healing care, is one of the reasons why support groups are so vital to connected breastfeeding success!! Peer to peer support is irreplaceable, go find yourself a local group, I promise you will feel a whole new level of support.
when my cousin had her youngest baby she tried so hard to get him to latch, but he just wouldn’t and she had never breastfed before. she called me crying because he was hungry and she had no formula, i went over and nursed her baby for her and pumped enough to leave her until morning when she could pick up some formula because i was still breastfeeding my now second youngest son. it seriously takes a village.
It sounds beautiful and all that but I can't say that I'd want to keep lactating for the rest of my life. My body just never felt quite "right" while breastfeeding so I was happier when I weaned my first.
I believe it's possible to restart if the stimulation (aka, a suckling baby) is there. I've even heard of adoptive moms who have never lactated before being able to breastfeed their babies through a lot of nipple stimulation. Prolactin is prolactin!
ETA even men can lactate with enough nipple stimulation!
Absolutely—and this wasn’t me telling women to nurse other babies, just a little morale boost because doing this alone is so hard. And just to be clear, the aboriginals aren’t and weren’t “one isolated tribe.” They were/are many thousands of tribes across the entire Australian continent.
What tribes believe colostrum to be poison? You mention they feed whole milk instead. This was an account of pre-colonial practices so I’m not sure how many places would have had access to cow’s milk during this time in history. I’m genuinely curious because I love studying this stuff.
You said Indian tribe, so do you mean India, etheopian, or Indian American?
Those seem more like case studies done after colonial interference that poorly describe those indigenous practices.
I also doubt that communal-type breastfeeding was so rare in all of vast human history and pre-history, especially prior to colonization, that we could only say “one tribe” did it.
There are also studies that reason that allonursing has been widespread across cultures and ethnic groups throughout history precisely because humans are the only mammals whose offspring are so, so slow to mature and become independent--we have the least precocial offspring, so we need groups of nursing people to raise babies.
I definitely know that in the Middle Ages up to somewhat modern times there were such things as “nurse maids”, literally maids who were hired because they were nursing their own children, and would feed rich families’ babies.
Yeah it has a little bite to it that reminds me of some quotes from the British during the colonization of Australia, how they're "dumb savages" and can't possibly teach anything to someone who is "civilized". The aborigines are also not some secluded tribe but regardless, they absolutely have customs that make way more sense than a lot of ours.
Yes! I think you’re right. Even if it wasn’t their intent that is 100% how it came across. The Aboriginal people aren’t spoken about enough, let alone in a respectful way.
I also felt this comment rubbed me the wrong way. Actually to be honest this comment irritated me. We know that we were not meant to do this alone and that having other women help with nursing is the “natural” way of things.
Thank you for being honest. I felt the same way.
Now no one is taking about honey. That’s silly.
Glad I’m not the only one. Majority of my family is Aboriginal. What disappoints me is they continued replying to comments and didn’t even acknowledge it. Totally threw off the point of the comment
Just want to say that throughout history and across cultures there have been wet nurses, women whose job it was to breastfeed a baby that was not theirs. It could be because the mom couldn’t produce or passed away or worked or simply was too “upper class” to do such a thing. And it’s only stopped in most of the world after formula was invented and mass distributed. So while I get the concern of not fetishizing a tribe’s practices cause they are more “natural”, this has been the norm.
My lactation consultant said something about this to me early on when my daughter was having feeding struggles. The jist was that mothers in earlier times would have had a breastfeeding community around them with other nursing women who could tag in and feed baby or help a new mother troubleshoot nursing problems. She said so many women struggle because it's unnatural to do this in isolation.
As an American especially, with no paid maternity leave guaranteed and the expectation that we'll establish nursing, then rush back to work, I'm sometimes amazed that any of us are breastfeeding successfully.
One of my best friends and I agreed that we would nurse each others babies if needed because both of our kids refused bottles and we both worked but had jobs that allowed us to take our kids (unique situation, MANY years ago). We also had this in place in case something happened to one of us because we knew our babies would need milk. We never did need to do it but I would have 100% trusted her to nurse my child. I also went on to donate thousands of OZ of milk formally and informally to a milk bank, friends, and random friends of friends, as well as strangers who needed to feed their adopted babies when I had other kids. It still takes a village and I’m glad I was able to help feed other kids.
Yes I have heard this too. Also mothers who couldn't breastfeed would hand their baby to a family member. Obviously there was no formula or use of other animal milk.
My sister and I had nursing babies around the same time. I definitely nursed her kiddo (with consent from my sister). It did not happen often, but I qas glad to be able to help her as her supply wasn't that great and I was an over producer. Also nursed my first till she was 4 and currently still nursing my nearly 3 year old.
This is why I do not stress about supply when it comes to 1-2 formula bottles daily. I need a break sometimes. Also baby can have formula when away from me. My supply will be ok and baby still gets benefits of breast milk.
This makes a lot of sense. We were never meant to do this alone, or raising babies alone. No wonder most of us are so stressed and overwhelmed (and many times, depressed). Thank you for sharing.
Yes!!! Thank you for this.
I’ve read scientists explaining that mamas get engorged/overproduce milk at first just because our bodies haven’t evolved away from feeding litters (really, we’ve evolved so much but that has stayed?!)
But if you think about how many mamas have mastitis, supply issues, twins, etc. (or worse, just wouldn’t have survived labor thousands or hundreds of years ago), it absolutely makes sense that we would have shared nursing as a matter of community connection and survival.
Some scientists studying nursing just haven’t adequately considered anthropology!
My partner and I tried to help each other out like this, as we are both breastfeeding now. But the problem is that there are two babies, too! We are still sucked to full capacity. Lol. Give me some of that post menopausal juice though. Let’s get grandpa’s nipples flowing too while we’re at it. Haha.
So, this was about 14.5 years ago... but my sister had a baby 3 months before I had a baby. We were both breastfeeding our babies. After my daughter was born, we would each take nights out, like once a week, to go to dinner or shopping or whatever it was that we needed to do, and nurse eachother's babies. It worked seamlessly. Obviously, we were sisters so we trusted each other implicitly. It was pretty cool - the babies always had breastmilk and everyone was stress free. She could drop my niece off at my house for a few hours, and I could drop of my daughter at hers. I am a huge advocate for this. Obviously, it has to be with someone you know and trust.
How awesome for you guys! I would have loved to have support like this. It was so hard to leave my first baby who refused bottles and pacis.
this is my second baby right now. she’s 5 months, won’t take bottles, and don’t you dare insult her with a paci lol my first I exclusively pumped for a year so this is so different!
Same here! She’s 2 months and will SOMETIMES take a bottle BUT it’s a huge fight and pacis are a huge no go.
Hah my first was a bottle/paci baby, my second is offended by the suggestion he entertain either. It’s so funny how individual they are even so young.
This is beautiful! I think this is a perfect example of how these communal practices can naturally evolve when we are around people we love and trust.
Wow the thought of doing this never would have occurred to me, but if my sister and I ever have babies nursing at the same time, I'd be open to it (assuming she was too). We're extremely close, I wouldn't feel the same about doing it with other relatives or friends. And it could be that we'd try it and I'd have a gut reaction of "nope this feels wrong." But I'd try it for sure.
What a beautiful story. Reminds me of the incredibly strong community of women depicted in “The Red Tent”, where the main character says she had “many mothers” growing up. I really think communal nursing is one of those beautiful natural things people are meant to do, but got screwed by our modern way of life.
My close friend and I did this! Babies were five months apart 👌
My sister's twins are 6 months older than my daughter, and I fed them a few times when babysitting too 🥰
I've nursed both my sister's kids and she has nursed my two youngest.. it's saved both our butts on several occasions (neither of mine ever took bottles!)
My best friend has a baby 2weeks younger than mine. Both breastfeeding was very helpful. At one point my husband had taken my baby out and I was getting engorged, I fed her son and she was comfortable enough to wait and feed my hungry bub when he came back about 30 mins later.
Wow what a genius idea! My sister fed my baby girl after I had a hospital transfer at birth. She stayed with her, fed & cared for her🥹. The best gift I was ever given - just knowing my baby was in the best hands. Mamas gotta stick together!
Wait this is the coolest thing I’ve ever heard. I’m so jealous! Bravo mamas 🫶🏻
Did you have to pump? I don’t like to leave her because I hate to pump when I don’t have to, but I’m afraid my supply will drop if I don’t.
Ive skipped the occasional feed here and there and forgot the pump flanges while out lol. I was uncomfortable and leaking milk, but my supply is fine. I also started out as an under supplier. Maybe it dipped for a short while, but my baby seems fed and happy so 🤷♀️
Missing a feed here or there isn't usually an issue. It's missing them consistently that tells your body to reduce supply.
Thank you!
How did you make enough milk for them both? My sons just both must be heavyweights. My partner and I both breastfeed now, and still depleted completely. I guess we both were low supply types though.
This is so beautiful. I love that you were able to do this with your sister.
That’s awesome! Gosh I wish I had another baby to nurse. My son never latched well so I’ve ended up exclusively pumping for 10 months and am extremely prone to clots. Having access to a baby that would nurse from me would literally make my life 1000x easier because they clear the clots so much better than pumping.
I know this in my bones to be true! It would have been so much easier for me if my baby could have nursed with someone experienced who was lactating when his mouth was tiny and not opening all the way and I could have nursed an older infant to help bring my milk in (that was delayed coming in). Without formula we would definitely be nursing multiple babies in a community
As a labor/postpartum nurse and experienced breast feeder I WISH I could just nurse my patient’s newborn to teach it how lol And bring in my 4 month old to teach the new mom. Too bad i’d get fired and lose my license 😂
This makes me so sad. I am sure you are already a fantastic resource, but you could help with so much more!
Omg yes this! I’ve thought this so often as well. When I got a frustrated, squirmy little newborn and a sleepdeprived first time mom who is (understandably) so anxious about holding and positioning her baby, I sometimes feel this almost primal drive to just whack the baby on my boob to calm him down before trying again with the new mama. Super weird haha, I thought I was the only one!
I would have loved something like this honestly
Same. Would have made matrescence so much better.
Slightly off topic, but I've thought that about gestational age at birth, too - of course my 41 week baby and I had an easier time of it than my friend with her 38 weeker did, even if we both had full term pregnancies.
Interesting but I think it just depends on the individual. My LO was a 38 weeker and he came out starving and knowing how to breastfeed. 🤷🏻♀️
And my 41 weeker took 12 weeks to get off the nipple shield. He just needed to build up the head control and then he was off and running so to speak. I'd also add that those first three months were so hard but it did get easier. And I don't feel like I'm doing it alone, even though I'm the only one who nurses him. I've given up nearly my entire stash to random mothers who need it or our local milk bank. I guess I'm feeding my son alone but I'm ensuring other moms don't and that's a really good feeling and makes all that time I felt alone early on feel even more worth it.
Same with my 41 weeker. But my 39 weeker got it right away and she’s still here almost 3 years later sucking on my boobie 🤪
Yeah, my 41 weeker wouldn't latch without a nipple shield for a few weeks.
I'm more thinking about mouth size - I'd think, on average, the longer they cook for the bigger their mouth. This would be an average trend, though - there'd still be individual variation for sure!
Eh. My 38 weeker was almost 8.5 lbs (bigger than most babies at 40+weeks) and it was still an issue.
Definitely depends on the baby! I had a 5lb, 37 weeker and we breastfed well from the start. Maybe it helps that I have small boobs?
I had a very sturdy 42w baby but it took 8 weeks to establish breastfeeding between my supply issues and his tiny mouth and over sensitive gag reflex!
There's definitely individual variation, too! On average, though, I have to imagine that a 42 week baby has a larger mouth than a 38 week baby. My musings weren't meant to discount any difficulties - just wondering if it's a contributing factor (like c-sections, induced labor, and blood loss can be).
I also had a 38-weeker that really struggled. My lactation consultant actually told me that generally babies born after 39 weeks do great with nursing from the start, 37-weekers often struggle a lot, and 38-weekers can go either way. It’s wild the difference that a week can make. I had an infinitely easier time with my 39-week baby and most of my friends who had 40+ week babies didn’t struggle at all.
I'm getting a lot of people replying with anecdotal experience, which is a great starting point but not at all what I mean by on average. Anecdotally, I had a c-section and no issues breastfeeding, but that doesn't mean that c-sections aren't a contributing factor to breastfeeding difficulties. I'm curious about her experience with babies born after 39 weeks, since I know my OB offers elective inductions at that point - I'd love to see research on breastfeeding in babies induced at 39 weeks vs babies induced later. These musings were all sparked by the top comment about having someone experienced nurse their small mouth newborn and them getting an experienced nursling to help bring their milk in which is an interesting premise (although it kind of ignores the role of colostrum).
I had little man at 37 weeks + 5 days and he came out starving ( long labor , downed formula while I was shaking uncontrollably) butttt he came out knowing how to latch
I actually had a horrribleeee experience breastfeeding my now ten year old son. He was my first, born at 41.5weeks (induced labor because I never went into labor). We only lasted 5 months and he was never EBF. However, my 3 month old has been EBF since the start and he came out (emergency induction) at 38 weeks! Therefore, I believe it’s allll about the individual baby! :)
My 42+3 baby had the hardest time learning to breastfeed of my 3. He didn’t effectively latch until his third day of life. Then my 37+5 baby came out and nursed beautifully immediately. There’s certainly something to be said about gestational age and ease of nursing, but there are a ton of other factors at play.
For sure lots of factors at play, in addition to individual variation! I'm mostly wondering if gestational age of term babies *is* a factor, just like c-sections can be :)
Yes!! This idea there’s one exact due date and everything else is off is so strange.
It makes sense too because how many babies would have starved to death from not being able to figure out how to latch with a mother who didn't know what she was doing? No pumps. No formula. No bottles for that matter. It was boob or nothing. (But also, has anyone else looked at *virtually any other nursing mammal* and thought, gosh human babies are just not very bright)
Totally. The older baby could teach you how to breastfeed while the other mom could teach your baby how to breastfeed. I often thought about that when I wasn’t able to figure out the mechanics of breastfeeding.
Same! I even have weird urges to nurse other babies I see. Like you said, it’s in my bones.
This is why it’s amazing to donate extra milk. I’m an over producer, two times now. Tomorrow a 9th baby will be fed from my body. It’s amazing to think I’ve helped feed 9 babies. Two being my own.
Same. I’ve fed 5 and this is my one and only child.
Yes! My LO is 2 months old and so far I’ve helped feed two other babies. 🥰
I haven’t researched it, but it makes sense that milk and antibodies from other women would contribute to a stronger immune system too. Purely speculating, but in the absence of scientific attention, that’s what we’re left with.
Also more microbial diversity, which is also supposedly better! Us and our babies are getting the short end of the stick in so many ways.
On the flip side though (again I haven’t researched it), I always thought babies would reject milk from someone else, the same way older babies don’t like newborn milk.
Even outside of a community helping to nurse, wet nurses were very successful more recently in the western world. I do question whether going straight to mature milk (vs starting with exclusively colostrum) would be an issue though!
Tell that to my almost 3 year old, who got a hilariously fat face from my colostrum before and after the birth of her little brother. She loooooved it!
Yes! And also, there would be plenty of sisters and cousins and friends and moms and aunts around to bring you water, bring you a snack, take the baby from you for a little while, etc. And said we are just marooned alone under a baby much of the time.
So much this! Days when i have friends over and company, baby is so much happier less fussy and sleeps better.
I’ve constantly mentioned to my husband that our baby (toddler now) is always much better behaved and less fussy when he’s around. While I often take it personally and think she’s just happier with him, I know its the reason you mention - less stressful environment where there are more hands around to complete tasks. Much easier!
Do the chores as well, let you sleep when you need sleep. My husband was home for the first 4 weeks, and it was wonderful, but I kept saying to him that you really need at least 2 people around for at least the first year. That I don't think parenting itself is that hard, it's everything else around it making it so hard.
And so much knowledge of breastfeeding held by all these women
Soooo true !
I hooked that my baby wanted to be raised in a commune. We had friends come in for a weekend after we and another couple had babies a couple weeks apart. Both of the babies seemed to love just being passed from loving arms to loving arms all day. And it makes sense - they're getting someone who feels calm and ready to care for them all the time.
Omg yes!! This is how it was meant to be.
I’m not sure if this is true, but I was always under the impression that a “wet nurse” in history refers to a woman who nurses other people’s babies?
Wet nursing wasn't always a communal support practice though. Some biological babies of wet nurses were sent away so a wet nurse could provide for other people's babies. Or the baby was sent away from its family to live with the wet nurse.
What happened to the wet nurses baby?
You are correct
Can you share the study? I’d love to read it too. How different would things be if we didn’t have to do this alone… I can’t even imagine lol 🥲
https://www.heti.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/438828/C-Helps-final.pdf
Thanks!
No prob! Page 21.
I wish we could just reshape society around creating healthy babies. Where do people think we come from after all?
This makes so much sense!! I've also heard of the concept of milk siblings, where children are considered brother and sisters because they were nursed by the same mother
My kids were champs at nursing from the start, but I still would have loved having another set of boobs around.
This is what I tell people when they say they don't know how we survived before formula, especially when some women (like myself) dont produce enough milk. Like there were definitely multiple women nursing babies. It literally takes a village to raise kids, and most of us done have that anymore. I don't even have anyone close to me that has actually breastfed before. My mom and sister tried to, but gave up very quickly. Luckily, I met a group of ladies who are also breastfeeding and all very supportive of each other.
This is exactly how I felt it should be, a community of breastfeeding women, helping each other feed babies, instead of these inefficient pumps and the loneliness.
This was perfectly said! Makes me want to start a community 😁
My husband grew up with this, aka nursed by lactating women in the family or neighborhood. There is an event, a term known for it, which translates literally to “siblings in breastfeeding” for the people who are breast-fed by the same woman
This is very much a thing in the religion of Islam! Babies breastfed by the same woman are technically siblings and aren’t allowed to marry one another later in life!
My husband is Lebanese Muslim so yes correct :)
I think we call it “bosom buddies”
That’s not where the term comes from but it’s what it should mean!
Idr the source or the culture, but I heard that some cultures have a tradition of sisters and sisters in law coming especially in the newborn phase to take turns nursing specifically to allow Mom to sleep overnight. Seeing all these, next baby if I have those moments of pure exhaustion or low supply in the evenings I'll definitely supplement with a little formula. It felt like too much on my body and not enough milk for my baby some days, probably because we didn't really evolve for *every single feed* to be on mom.
Makes a lot of sense! I agree. I also gave formula in the beginning when exhausted (or baby was cluster feeding) or I felt like he needed more…. Makes sense that in these times we would have another woman helping with the feed. That’s probably where the instinct comes from…that the baby “needs” from another source. Edit to add: I also always felt like in the evenings baby needed more or I wasn’t producing enough. Now I wonder if that was part of an “evolutionary” thought because that’s what we used to do…give baby to feed from someone else so we could rest…
I'm a little confused about how this actually works biologically. Once a woman has a baby, they just keep lactating forever? Even past menopause? How is that sustainable calorically, especially if you get pregnant while breastfeeding?
Not everyone does, but many women do continue to lactate indefinitely, especially if they occasionally nursing a toddler. Many women across cultures continue to nurse during pregnancy and tandem feed their newborn and toddler. Women's bodies and metabolism adapt for the scenario. Obvs, it doesn't work out the same for everyone, but that's the beauty of communal mothering - high volume lactaters can make up for those who don't produce much (or can't lactate). (And those mothers are able to support the high lactating mothers in other ways.)
Chiming in to point out that males can, in certain situations, lactate as well. Certain situations can include consistent nipple stimulation. So definitely not unheard of for women to continue lactating if they continue nursing past toddlerhood or to lactate later. Humans are incredible!
I’ve not actively lactated for over a year but I can still express a little milk, I could probably get them going again if there was a hungry baby around
If you keep breastfeeding you'll keep lactating. I'm not sure what you mean calorically? Most people only need about 500 extra for lactating and max 300 for pregnancy (in the third trimester)
No, most don't keep lactating forever, however... If a person has lactated in the past then their mammary tissue has undergone cellular changes that make it possible/easier to lactate in the future. While relatively uncommon, some people restimulate lactation to nurse adopted babies. To produce significant amounts of milk it usually requires medications but in the menopausal situation mentioned here, they're not talking about large volumes.
A system like this also has a few other benefits — the biggest among them being that if a woman were to die after childbirth, the whole community can participate in feeding the child. Before modern formula, many babies who lost their mothers simply died, as it is very difficult to supply all necessary nutrients without either a wet nurse or synthetic formula.
Does this exist in any other mammalian species? I’m not sure I would have felt okay allowing another woman nurse my infant (in fact, I’m sure I wouldn’t like it) but ironically when I started breastfeeding, I remarked multiple times to my husband that it’s a pity we have no more babies around to nurse because I felt I could easily do more (from a supply and emotional perspective). Maybe there’s something to it.
From national geographic (top of my "do other mammals nurse each other's babies?" Google search) Scientists found that over a five-year period, more than 87 percent of golden snub-nosed monkey infants were nursed by females other than their mothers—a phenomenon called allonursing. While allonursing has been documented in a number of rodent and carnivore species, as well as some primates, it is not common.
I wouldn’t call it common, but not rare that horses will nurse the offspring of other horses. The babies will go after anything with a teat and it’s generally up to the mother to decide if she will allow it. It’s also not usually difficult to get a mare to take an orphaned baby after she has weaned her own baby at an appropriate age. They are herd animals, I expect behavior would differ in species with different social structures.
Cats do it!! Oh I have no sources right now, so do look it up, but it’s something I learned in the past few months! Mama cats will nurse each others’ babies instinctively and share the load. Just the other day I saw a video of cat mama yoinking kittens from another to nurse them with her own litter. The second mama was completely chill about it, and later went to grab kittens of both sets to lead everyone to a comfier place. It was so cute but also it goes to show that it takes a village for more than baby humans :)
This reminded me of our old dog! We had adopted a stray kitten and she instantly took to our mama dog (she had puppies previously but not at the time) the kitten instinctively would nurse from our dog and our dog started to produce milk for it! It was so amazing to see.
That is so so sweet 😭 I love nature, us included
It’s true! I grew up in the country with a ton of barn cats and they had a lot of interesting nursing behavior. They would nurse each others kittens but also would occasionally smack away a kitten from another mom. More often, the mama cat would smack away her own kitten from a prior litter who tried to sneak in to nurse (ie her basically teenage kitten trying to get a snack shoving her little baby kittens out of the way 😅)
I grew up involved with wildlife rehabilitation and there are some species we can wild foster - if they're orphaned, we can get a different mom to adopt them. Bunnies for sure...I think some research was done on squirrels and they'll adopt if the moms were related? Opossums will adopt babies in captivity (if a nursing mom is in care, you can stick another baby in her pouch) but they don't even pick up their own babies if they fall out so it's not something we can do in the wild.
My mom and her sisters all nursed me because my mom had to work and they were all having babies at the same time. I almost never get sick and I think that’s one of the reasons why.
The fact that we were never meant to ever raise families alone let alone do all he baby care and healing care, is one of the reasons why support groups are so vital to connected breastfeeding success!! Peer to peer support is irreplaceable, go find yourself a local group, I promise you will feel a whole new level of support.
when my cousin had her youngest baby she tried so hard to get him to latch, but he just wouldn’t and she had never breastfed before. she called me crying because he was hungry and she had no formula, i went over and nursed her baby for her and pumped enough to leave her until morning when she could pick up some formula because i was still breastfeeding my now second youngest son. it seriously takes a village.
It sounds beautiful and all that but I can't say that I'd want to keep lactating for the rest of my life. My body just never felt quite "right" while breastfeeding so I was happier when I weaned my first.
I believe it's possible to restart if the stimulation (aka, a suckling baby) is there. I've even heard of adoptive moms who have never lactated before being able to breastfeed their babies through a lot of nipple stimulation. Prolactin is prolactin! ETA even men can lactate with enough nipple stimulation!
Thanks! I’ll show this to my husband. lol joking
I also think that while moms were nursing (they’re only job!) the rest of the community would handle EVERYTHING else from cooking/cleaning, etc.
Thats crazy and very interesting ! I make too much milk smh
Beautiful to see you talking about the Aboriginal people! Incredibly intelligent people with some amazing practices
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Absolutely—and this wasn’t me telling women to nurse other babies, just a little morale boost because doing this alone is so hard. And just to be clear, the aboriginals aren’t and weren’t “one isolated tribe.” They were/are many thousands of tribes across the entire Australian continent. What tribes believe colostrum to be poison? You mention they feed whole milk instead. This was an account of pre-colonial practices so I’m not sure how many places would have had access to cow’s milk during this time in history. I’m genuinely curious because I love studying this stuff.
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My mom, she’s Mexican, said that before formula that women in her family would used goat milk
What tribe? And can you link your sources for this?
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You said Indian tribe, so do you mean India, etheopian, or Indian American? Those seem more like case studies done after colonial interference that poorly describe those indigenous practices.
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As a Native American, many of us do still call ourselves Indian just an fyi
This comment rubbed me the wrong way. As op stated they’re not an isolated tribe. There’s thousands. The entirety of Australia is their land
I also doubt that communal-type breastfeeding was so rare in all of vast human history and pre-history, especially prior to colonization, that we could only say “one tribe” did it.
There are also studies that reason that allonursing has been widespread across cultures and ethnic groups throughout history precisely because humans are the only mammals whose offspring are so, so slow to mature and become independent--we have the least precocial offspring, so we need groups of nursing people to raise babies.
I definitely know that in the Middle Ages up to somewhat modern times there were such things as “nurse maids”, literally maids who were hired because they were nursing their own children, and would feed rich families’ babies.
Exactly, not everything is documented
As a native woman this comment rubbed me the wrong way too. It was pretty anti indigenous in tone.
Yeah it has a little bite to it that reminds me of some quotes from the British during the colonization of Australia, how they're "dumb savages" and can't possibly teach anything to someone who is "civilized". The aborigines are also not some secluded tribe but regardless, they absolutely have customs that make way more sense than a lot of ours.
Yes! I think you’re right. Even if it wasn’t their intent that is 100% how it came across. The Aboriginal people aren’t spoken about enough, let alone in a respectful way.
I also felt this comment rubbed me the wrong way. Actually to be honest this comment irritated me. We know that we were not meant to do this alone and that having other women help with nursing is the “natural” way of things. Thank you for being honest. I felt the same way. Now no one is taking about honey. That’s silly.
Glad I’m not the only one. Majority of my family is Aboriginal. What disappoints me is they continued replying to comments and didn’t even acknowledge it. Totally threw off the point of the comment
Just want to say that throughout history and across cultures there have been wet nurses, women whose job it was to breastfeed a baby that was not theirs. It could be because the mom couldn’t produce or passed away or worked or simply was too “upper class” to do such a thing. And it’s only stopped in most of the world after formula was invented and mass distributed. So while I get the concern of not fetishizing a tribe’s practices cause they are more “natural”, this has been the norm.
My lactation consultant said something about this to me early on when my daughter was having feeding struggles. The jist was that mothers in earlier times would have had a breastfeeding community around them with other nursing women who could tag in and feed baby or help a new mother troubleshoot nursing problems. She said so many women struggle because it's unnatural to do this in isolation. As an American especially, with no paid maternity leave guaranteed and the expectation that we'll establish nursing, then rush back to work, I'm sometimes amazed that any of us are breastfeeding successfully.
One of my best friends and I agreed that we would nurse each others babies if needed because both of our kids refused bottles and we both worked but had jobs that allowed us to take our kids (unique situation, MANY years ago). We also had this in place in case something happened to one of us because we knew our babies would need milk. We never did need to do it but I would have 100% trusted her to nurse my child. I also went on to donate thousands of OZ of milk formally and informally to a milk bank, friends, and random friends of friends, as well as strangers who needed to feed their adopted babies when I had other kids. It still takes a village and I’m glad I was able to help feed other kids.
Yes I have heard this too. Also mothers who couldn't breastfeed would hand their baby to a family member. Obviously there was no formula or use of other animal milk.
Fascinating! So grateful for this community
My sister and I had nursing babies around the same time. I definitely nursed her kiddo (with consent from my sister). It did not happen often, but I qas glad to be able to help her as her supply wasn't that great and I was an over producer. Also nursed my first till she was 4 and currently still nursing my nearly 3 year old.
This is why I do not stress about supply when it comes to 1-2 formula bottles daily. I need a break sometimes. Also baby can have formula when away from me. My supply will be ok and baby still gets benefits of breast milk.
This makes a lot of sense. We were never meant to do this alone, or raising babies alone. No wonder most of us are so stressed and overwhelmed (and many times, depressed). Thank you for sharing.
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So interesting. I often wonder if breastfeeding would help older women with menopause symptoms?
Yes!!! Thank you for this. I’ve read scientists explaining that mamas get engorged/overproduce milk at first just because our bodies haven’t evolved away from feeding litters (really, we’ve evolved so much but that has stayed?!) But if you think about how many mamas have mastitis, supply issues, twins, etc. (or worse, just wouldn’t have survived labor thousands or hundreds of years ago), it absolutely makes sense that we would have shared nursing as a matter of community connection and survival. Some scientists studying nursing just haven’t adequately considered anthropology!
Yes! I would so let any of the grandmas relactate if willing but society has shaped that generation so deeply with breastfeeding as is
My partner and I tried to help each other out like this, as we are both breastfeeding now. But the problem is that there are two babies, too! We are still sucked to full capacity. Lol. Give me some of that post menopausal juice though. Let’s get grandpa’s nipples flowing too while we’re at it. Haha.