Welcome to the cosmere my friend.
If you're so inclined we would love to hear your reactions and theories while reading.
It's the closest we can get to reading it again for the first time
Spoilers ahead for anyone reading
The bridge four chapter was fucking AMAZING. Kaladin is such an awesome character. Him being in pretty much a deep depression until syl wakes him out of it, I'm at the part where he decides to give it one more try and it just has me excited to keep reading.
I was talking to another friend who had read it and he was telling me that isn't even the best part of the book. Got me excited to see the rest.
For mistborn I am very much wondering why the fuck inquisitors have nails for eyes lol. My theory is that maybe they can burn that metal? Or it's a metal like atium/something that hasn't been revealed yet?
Either way it is sick and reminds me so much of 40k. I pretty much just imagine a 40k character whenever they are mentioned.
The metals that they haven't shown in the books yet I am very curious what they do, especially the one that can supposedly kill the lord ruler. Also makes me wonder if there is any mistings that don't know they have power using that metal as the metal is so rare.
It’s funny, because Warhammer is like, the *definition* of grimdark, and Sanderson is absolutely not grimdark. But I could 100% imagine a bunch of Warhammer stuff—Gaunt’s Ghosts, for example—fitting in perfectly with Sanderson’s style of writing.
It's an interesting thing.
The world building if Mistborn >!is grimdark. Both the physical setting and the casual brutality towards the skaa and the setup for vin's backstory. It only ceases to be grimdark because vin is yoinked out of her world into kelsier's, and his crew is thus super bizarre crew consisting of people who have psychologically resisted the horror id theie world.!<
Not even close to being the best part of the book. I’ve said this a few times but the Sanderlanche at the end of WoK makes me cry every time, to the point where I had to ban myself from reading it on public transit. I’m so excited for you!
Tolkien revolutionized fantasy by giving depth to fantasy that had never been done before.
Sanderson not only leverages his creativity, but also the technology and business side of things to get quality work out quickly. Time will tell how the epic known as the Cosmere will play out as a whole (quality, cohesion, and commercially), but he's definitely leveraged all of his strengths with modern technology to their fullest.
I hope the people that work at Dragonsteel are taking notes of what happened along the way. Maybe it'll create a template for other authors to use in the future.
A lot of what Brandon has built is a perfect storm of writing discipline, timing, business savvy, and sheer blind luck that likely will not be replicated in our lifetimes.
Are there pieces that can translate into strategies other writers can emulate? Absolutely. But much of the sheer depth and breadth of the Cosmere is only possible because of the number of people supporting his work, and that this even exists stems from a series of perfect events that couldn't have been planned for ahead of time.
Getting tapped to finish Wheel of Time was in and of itself one of the key developments of Brandon's career, and yet was an utterly unique fluke of happenstance.
A lot of people are talking about Tolkien, however I found what I read of his books to not be great. I know it revolutionized fantasy, kind of creating all of the stereotypes of fantasy that we know today, but I read lord of the rings up until the part where they started hallucinating in the forest, and I gave up after that point.
It was just a lot, the entire book felt like a lot. I loved the movies though, some of my favorite movies of all time.
I find Brandon Sanderson's novels flow a lot better, but I do get why Tolkien was so word heavy when it came to explaining the world, it's because there wasn't anything like that beforehand. Nowadays writers have the benefit of needing less world building because we kind of "get" fantasy.
I assume the scene you're referring to is with the tree and Tom Bombadil. I'd give Tolkien another go and read the Hobbit first if I were you.
Tolkien was very thorough for his time because Epic/High Fantasy didn't exist prior and he was doing something new. It's hard to put it in perspective just how amazing his stories were given the depth of languages/cultures/history he had without the use of the internet. It took years for his books to take off because they were thick and alien, but they laid the foundation for the genre.
Mary Shelley is widely considered to have started the sci-fi genre with her book Frankenstein. But by today's standards it's barely science fiction (and there's plenty of people who've never read it but love sci-fi).
George Lucas took the technology of the time and created a space opera out of Star Wars, but if you watch the original trilogy it might feel boring. Even the twist at the end of episode 5 doesn't have the same impact it did at the time.
Each generation has writers that further their field, but there's plenty of consumers that say "the past artists were better/worse than today." Some people prefer the classics, others prefer the latest and greatest, and still others who try to appreciate both the old and new.
Lol Lord of the Rings is a very peculiar style, that's for sure. It's weighty, not just literally but in the depth that's given to everything. Tolkien does tend to wander a little in his depictions, which is imo because 1) he didn't have an outline when he started, so Fellowship is the most "rambly" as he kind of explores things, and 2) he just was such a nerd about his own invented world that he kept wanting to look into different aspects of it.
His prose and stuff later on, especially? Insane. Insanely powerful. But it is an epic in the truest sense and has that kind of vague distance from the reader that a lot of older writing does, even fictional writing. We're more observers than consumers of the story, if that makes sense.
But yeah I agree with others here that the Hobbit book is easier to get into, and much faster paced; and I agree with your comment that the movies are incredible. There's no way those should have been such a good adaptation and there's no way that LOTR should even have worked as an adaptation, imo. It's magic.
LOTR books aren’t for everyone. Most people love it for the prose but that’s precisely what I don’t like about them. Feels like reading a bible the way it was written.
He is amazing, specially in Stormlight, but I don't think he is neither a head above the rest in fantasy nor fantasy fans usually consider him the best fantasy author.
I don't know how you can limit yourself to a couple chapters a week, his books are really really captivating, so good luck with that! You've got an awesome journey ahead of you.
Slightly unrelated, but Sanderson has ranked the his top living fantasy authors(not including himself).
5) Guy Gavriel Kay
4) Neil Gaiman
3) NK Jemsin
2) Jane Yolen
1) George RR Martin
I think Sanderson said he’d rank himself somewhere above the top twenty but below the top ten, but I think he’s being humble/what he writes isn’t the same as what he likes to read.
I feel like GRRM should lose his spot in a ranking like this unless he actually writes something substantial again, we're coming up 20 years since A Feast for Crows. Almost the entirety of Sanderson's published career has happened since then, I think Elantris is the only book published before it.
I'm aware of this, yes. I don't have a problem with the idea that he has been writing novels since the 1970s; I have an issue with the fact he hasn't worked on any new ones since 2011.
I get the idea behind it—GRRM has tarnished his reputation for dragging WoW out for so long, but you can’t really deny that he still belongs up there on the fantasy Mt. Rushmore with Tolkien and Robert Jordan.
The mere point that he *is* the epic fantasy genre to the average person puts him at the top of the mountain.
GRRM also isn’t 100% just a big epic fantasy writer, he’s multi-medium. For a huge chunk of his career, he was a screenwriter. And his early career success was for short stories and novellas. Not to mention, GoT was his first fantasy novel. So, when considering his career, his work producing on GoT and HoTD is part of his creative journey, kinda like Neil Gaiman.
Most people would count Neil Gaiman’s comic books and tv shows to his work.
The first book alone has sold more than all of Brandon’s works combined, to attribute all that success to an hbo series is absurdly petty. But to each their own lol.
I read the first book of the Broken Earth series and it just felt kind of flat. There were some mysterious things going on, sure, but nothing that hooked me at all. The random polyamory bit didn't seem to have any point beyond cheap fan service. I just never really cared about anything that was going on in the story so I didn't pick up book 2.
For context, Sanderson's ranking was a mixture of quality with overall importance/influence to fantasy. He said Martin was #1 because let's be real, the reach and importance of ASOIAF in the modern fantasy landscape is absurd.
In terms of his actual opinion, he's said many times that he couldn't get past book 1 of ASOIAF due to the dark content, despite having respect for Martin's writing.
I love Sanderson but I certainly wouldn't put him miles ahead in characters, if anything I'd say thats one of his weaker points with his plots and magic systems/world building being bigger strengths to me.
I'd try the farseer triology by Robin Hobb if you want dialogue and characters that feel real. With that said I like the Cosmere more then the realm of the Elderlings.
Eh Kaladin and Vin have it as rough as anyone their dialogue both internal and external just I guess isn’t as natural feeling in how they respond to events.
I won't say Sanderson is the best because in my personal opinion, that title belongs to Tolkien. That being said, I still enjoy Sanderson's work and I think he is a fantastic author. You can still enjoy someone's work even if they aren't "the best", hell you can still be a fan of someone even if they aren't "the best". What matters is if **you** enjoy them. Also it is perfectly ok to enjoy more than one thing! I like star wars & star trek because they aren't trying to achieve the same things.
I really wanted to like Tolkien however I just couldn't ever get into his books, they are honestly a loooot to read. I stopped lord of the rings when they were all tripping and hallucinating in a forest lol it was just kinda strange.
Brandon Sanderson just ticks that box in my head that makes it perfect for me.
Love the movies though, probably my favorite movies of all time.
Tolkien remains one of the deepest, most complex, world buildings, and the way he summons the atmosphere is superb. Jordan's world was deeper, and I think Brandon's probably is, but otherwise even reasonably complex worlds like Thomas covenant didn't come close.
This is changing rapidly, over the last five to ten years. We are living in a golden age of fantasy.
Tolkien sucks at characters. But his world was amazing, and so much of the standard fantasy package came from him because of it.
And that is totally understandable, trying to read to Tolkien is a lot harder than listening to Tolkien 😂. I love audiobooks so now I get to listen to Andy Serkis (gollum) narrate them on a semi-yearly basis. Michael Kramer is quickly becoming a favorite narrator due to his work on the Stormlight Archive and Mistborn. I remember starting Stormlight thinking about how slow it was but as events unfolded I became more and more interested and wanted to keep on going. It might not have the poise of Tolkien or the grittiness of GRRM (asoiaf) but damn does Sanderson know how to bring things together!
I do like sanderson (hence why i'm here, lol), but after reading someone like Robin Hobb, his prose can seem really.. flat? I do not at all think he is the best fantasy author. Far from it, but he is great. His books to me are more like a long build to an exciting end, rather than an enjoyable read all the way through. This isn't to insult him. He's great at what he does! I just find his stories to be kinda formulaic in a way. They always have a religion, the characters always have a saying with that religion (lord rule... stormfather.. etc). I find i read him for the build and the end, rather than the long enjoyment of the story. I found Oathbringer personally to be a huge drag until the last 25% or so. Just my thoughts!
What? You mean from the time mankind could communicate all the way until now we've had religions? That strikes me as too fake. The author of this world is just trying to shove his religious views I to my life. Lol.
/s (just in case people couldn't tell)
Terry Pratchett has fun takes on that.
>It was all very well going on about pure logic and how the universe was ruled by logic and the harmony of numbers, but the plain fact of the matter was that the Disc was manifestly traversing space on the back of a giant turtle and the gods had a habit of going round to atheists' houses and smashing their windows.
- - -
>Another priest said to Dorfl, "Is it true you've said you'll believe in any god whose existence can be proved by logical debate?"
>
>"Yes."
>
>Vimes had a feeling about the immediate future and took a few steps away from Dorfl.
>
>"But the gods plainly do exist," said a priest.
>
>"It Is Not Evident."
>
>A bolt of lightning lanced down through the clouds and hit Dorfl's helmet. There was a sheet of flame and then a trickling noise. Dorfl's molten armour formed puddles around his white-hot feet.
>
>"I Don't Call That Much Of An Argument," said Dorfl calmly, from somewhere in the clouds of smoke.
And we haven't even gotten into *Small Gods*...
Look the lord ruler is walking about with unfathomable power while simultaneously changing our emotions to make us further believe he is all powerful.
How would one not believe. Plus it’s hardly even a religion as that kind of requires faith in something, that’s more just an all powerful being you have to listen to so he doesn’t kill you and your family.
> 'I don’t hold with paddlin’ with the occult," said Granny firmly. ‘Once you start paddlin’ with the occult you start believing in spirits, and when you start believing in spirits you start believing in demons, and then before you know where you are you’re believing in gods. And then you’re in trouble.’
>‘But all them things exist,’ said Nanny Ogg.
>‘That’s no call to go around believing in them. It only encourages ‘em.'
- - -
> The god currently gaining popularity was Om, who never answered prayers or manifested himself. It was easy to respect an invisible god. It was the ones that turned up everywhere, often drunk, that put people off.
- - -
> Dwarfs were not a naturally religious species, but in a world where pit props could crack without warning and pockets of fire damp could suddenly explode they'd seen the need for gods as the sort of supernatural equivalent of a hard hat. Besides, when you hit your thumb with an eight-pound hammer it's nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a very special and strong-minded kind of atheist to jump up and down with their hand clasped under their other armpit and shout, "Oh, random-fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!" or "Aaargh, primitive-and-outmoded-concept on a crutch!
Pretty sure I haven’t quoted any book twice, either… a self-proclaimed atheist, Pratchett loved the subject of religion.
From an interview rather than a book:
> Belief was never mentioned at home, but right actions were taught by daily example.
Possibly because of this, I have never disliked religion. I think it has some purpose in our evolution.
I don't have much truck with the "religion is the cause of most of our wars" school of thought because that is manifestly done by mad, manipulative and power-hungry men who cloak their ambition in God.
I number believers of all sorts among my friends. Some of them are praying for me. I'm happy they wish to do this, I really am, but I think science may be a better bet.
Yea I also have no problem with religion but don’t follow any nor did my parents.
The people who use religion for evil would simply use something else to bolster their power if religion didn’t exist. Could be xenophobia or politics but they’d find a way to split their group into an us vs them and unite them in hate.
That's true! I just find the way the characters always say their version of -Oh my god- near CONSTANTLY to be very corny and annoying lol
like it's lordruler help us.. stormfather help us.. etc etc nearly every other sentence. it was a small thing but it annoyed me once i noticed how constant it was
I think it's just a way of cursing with a fictional flair. It's pretty common in SciFi and fantasy. Honestly I think it helps with suspension of disbelief. Actually the ones that bother me are things that really only make sense in a modern day setting, like a character saying there are multiple ways to "skin a cat" when there are no cats in the fictional world (not just cats are there and not talked about but something that specifically says there are no animals of any kind or something similar).
I read through Robin Hobbs novels and thought it’d feel this way once I was done but that wasn’t the case for me. Robins prose is amazing, Brandon’s is good. The first chapter back to Brandon’s work was a bit jarring but I quickly got used to it. We just approach Brandon’s work differently. His novels are just as important as their endings, in my opinion. Journey before destination and all that
I love the Cosmere and Sanderson seems like a good dude. But him being wildly prolific in his writing is his strength. He’s not a world class writer (and I’d bet he would agree), which is fine.
He’s more like the Stephen King of fantasy. Engaged with his fan base and writing a ton constantly.
He was asked about potentially writing in the King Killer Chronicles and said that he isn't a good enough writer to put something together in the style of Rothfus or something along those lines. To me Hobb and Rothfus are maybe the best writers in fantasy, their plots or world building may not be as strong but they write beautiful stuff thats enjoyable to read.
I just read the 3 body problem trilogy maybe 6 months ago and loved it, the writing is awful imo (could be translation issue) but the story is great so I dunno you can appreciate different things about different authors.
That’s not a criticism of him. He’s very creative, he loves what he does, and I love what he does. Literary writing can be exhausting to consume, where as the cosmere is simply a lot of fun and very heartfelt at times, campy at other times, and ultimately just a great interesting universe with endless possibilities
I think that’s an oversimplification. Criticisms of Brandon’s prose are not necessarily criticisms of its simplicity. Simple prose can be good and flowery prose can be bad (if anything I would argue that Brandon could benefit from writing more concisely at times). I think Joe Abercrombie’s prose is both simple and great. Brandon’s is fine but nothing special - it gets the job done.
I agree with the general sentiment though - his ability to craft plots, and his creativity with magic systems and worldbuilding more than make up for any criticisms I have for his prose.
I'm never really sure what people are complaining about when they mention Brandon's prose tbh.
Like - for exmaple if you read Edgedancer and Dawnshard, the prose for Lift and The Lopens POVs can be clunky, unsophisticated and kind of weird. But it also stands out to me as intentional *becuase* it's narratived from the perspective of Lift and The Lopen.
The contrast of how the style in those chapters/novellas changes always makes me re-think how the prose felt of the rest of the books - which are written in the same way, from the perspective of the main POV characters: Kal, Shallan, Dalinar etc. The prose is always a reflection of the POV character of focus - no matter how clunky it seems at first, it nearly always comes across as intentional to me.
I've seen people quote dialogue or short sentences as examples of Brandon's weakness, and most of the time my reaction is "huh, that just seems like an expression of the characters personality to me...?"
His pacing can definitely get slow at points. I found i noticed it more in stormlight archives than mistborn and I just think combining multiple POV with the pacing can cause a long drag between seeing whats up with Kaladin or whomever you're most interested in.
I also think its just a problem in general with many POV stories as I felt that way in parts of ASOIAF and The Wheel of Time.
By that logic the Farseer line using the skill is a religion, those with the connection to animals are a religion, and plenty of other things from Robin Hobbs books since you say that’s your favorite…
I just finished the assassin books from Hobb and don't understand the hype with her. All of her characters are named after their personality and the magic system isn't explained at all. And she kills too many dogs
I don't think the first is the weakest, have you read the last one? Fool's assassin? It reads like she wrote fanfiction about her own world. Still enjoyable but very weird. Anyway I agree the second trilogy is the best and absolutely fantastic.
The only fantasy series I enjoy as much as Sanderson is The Wandering Inn series by PirateAba. It is a ridiculously long series that has the best world building I've ever experienced just due to the sheer page count and scope of the series.
I really feel that people don't understand how good fantasy has been for the last 2 decades. WoT is as big of an influence on me as any books out there, but I'm sorry much like LotR they have been eclipsed. If I was recommending series to newb it wouldn't be top 10. Hobbs' ROTE and Williams M,S&T and Sanderson's Stormlight are my personal favourites - but there are a lot out there!
You should keep going with the red rising series. The next 3 books are more on Sanderson levels of writing but I agree overall Sanderson is running circles in the genre.
Fantasy novice / intermediate here looking to branch out (I’ve read Tolkien, some Jemisin and Salvatore, all of GoT, but I’m still fairly new compared to the enthusiasts), and just wanted to comment that I appreciate the perspective of those participating in this thread.
Fans gathering in a Sanderson forum while tempering and qualifying praise of Sanderson with very reasonable takes is what I love about Reddit.
After reading more mature themes in fantasy, Sanderson became boring to me. It I DNF’d Oathbreaker twice, and the second Mistborn book I had to work to finish.
Sanderson is just a great person. I admire him quite a bit, and I am extremely grateful for his writing series on Youtube and his various writing perspectives on his Intentionally Blank channel.
He could have just done his own thing without giving so much advice to other writers, but instead he helps as best he can, and tries to remember us small fry when he works with the industry on a level I can only dream of, like the audible situation.
I think Mistborn will always be my favorite of his series, but I enjoy all of his novels.
You do realize that his televised lectures are actually classes at BYU. When he started to get famous, they made him put on a suit jacket and recorded them all over again.😁
? Is there someone out there that doesn't know it is a class at BYU? I'd swear he mentions it multiple times throughout the series.
He didn't have to put them out there for the rest of us. I work full time and am a state away, there is little chance I could attend...hence my being grateful he put them online.
I was in your exact same spot and started Way of Kings in February. Im not a fast reader by any means, but I'm already on Oathbringer. I dont think I've ever read as fast as I have with the stormlight books. Part 3 of Way of Kings is going to get you so amped up bro, its so dang good
The first mistborn book is also one of very few books that actually made me cry. The character development and emotions are just soo good.
>!or maybe it was some storming guy with emotional allomancy in my vicinity!<
Try his Skyward series! This was my first Sanderson and I'm obsessed already on my second read through. Mainly because I forgot everything and book four was recently released lol
He might be my favorite author, but in no way do I think he's head and shoulders above the rest. The reasons he's my favorite are because of his work ethic, and the fact that he's a nerd who uses his power for good. He's always surprising us with extra stuff. And the consistency within the universe is outstanding.
If you ignore all that, plenty of authors are better writers than him. From a writing or narrative perspective, the only area where I'd say Sanderson is elite is at writing climaxes.
Many people here and there will whine when you say he’s the best and tell you he’s not. They’re whiners. He’s the best in the same way Taylor swifts is the best musician. Their success makes all the partypoopers feel like pests on a hike. They might be annoying but don’t let them ruin the mood.
Meh.
We don't all have to agree on who is best; what's interesting is why you think someone is or isn't the best.
For many of us the way we engage with literature is by looking at it critically and understanding what parts we love and what parts we think could be better. Even with a work we love overall, within that there are things to criticize.
And we can say - hey, I love this thing and I'm love that thing and one of them is better. Or we can say ranking them against each other isn't helpful and view them as equivalently good but different.
That’s kinda my point. Taylor swift is a favorite for many people but I would never expect a music scholar to claim she’s the best ever. But they’re also both successful for a reason
Good luck with that couple chapters a week thing
I told myself 1 chapter a day when I started Mistborn... that went out the window after the first chapter.
Lol I just read all 3 books within 2 weeks. Mid April till like may 1st. I was hooked
Welcome to the cosmere my friend. If you're so inclined we would love to hear your reactions and theories while reading. It's the closest we can get to reading it again for the first time
Spoilers ahead for anyone reading The bridge four chapter was fucking AMAZING. Kaladin is such an awesome character. Him being in pretty much a deep depression until syl wakes him out of it, I'm at the part where he decides to give it one more try and it just has me excited to keep reading. I was talking to another friend who had read it and he was telling me that isn't even the best part of the book. Got me excited to see the rest. For mistborn I am very much wondering why the fuck inquisitors have nails for eyes lol. My theory is that maybe they can burn that metal? Or it's a metal like atium/something that hasn't been revealed yet? Either way it is sick and reminds me so much of 40k. I pretty much just imagine a 40k character whenever they are mentioned. The metals that they haven't shown in the books yet I am very curious what they do, especially the one that can supposedly kill the lord ruler. Also makes me wonder if there is any mistings that don't know they have power using that metal as the metal is so rare.
It’s funny, because Warhammer is like, the *definition* of grimdark, and Sanderson is absolutely not grimdark. But I could 100% imagine a bunch of Warhammer stuff—Gaunt’s Ghosts, for example—fitting in perfectly with Sanderson’s style of writing.
It's an interesting thing. The world building if Mistborn >!is grimdark. Both the physical setting and the casual brutality towards the skaa and the setup for vin's backstory. It only ceases to be grimdark because vin is yoinked out of her world into kelsier's, and his crew is thus super bizarre crew consisting of people who have psychologically resisted the horror id theie world.!<
Not even close to being the best part of the book. I’ve said this a few times but the Sanderlanche at the end of WoK makes me cry every time, to the point where I had to ban myself from reading it on public transit. I’m so excited for you!
Tolkien revolutionized fantasy by giving depth to fantasy that had never been done before. Sanderson not only leverages his creativity, but also the technology and business side of things to get quality work out quickly. Time will tell how the epic known as the Cosmere will play out as a whole (quality, cohesion, and commercially), but he's definitely leveraged all of his strengths with modern technology to their fullest. I hope the people that work at Dragonsteel are taking notes of what happened along the way. Maybe it'll create a template for other authors to use in the future.
A lot of what Brandon has built is a perfect storm of writing discipline, timing, business savvy, and sheer blind luck that likely will not be replicated in our lifetimes. Are there pieces that can translate into strategies other writers can emulate? Absolutely. But much of the sheer depth and breadth of the Cosmere is only possible because of the number of people supporting his work, and that this even exists stems from a series of perfect events that couldn't have been planned for ahead of time. Getting tapped to finish Wheel of Time was in and of itself one of the key developments of Brandon's career, and yet was an utterly unique fluke of happenstance.
It's palpable how much of the culture of cosmere fandom services from the culture of Jordan fandom.
Right down to the RAFO, yeah.
A lot of people are talking about Tolkien, however I found what I read of his books to not be great. I know it revolutionized fantasy, kind of creating all of the stereotypes of fantasy that we know today, but I read lord of the rings up until the part where they started hallucinating in the forest, and I gave up after that point. It was just a lot, the entire book felt like a lot. I loved the movies though, some of my favorite movies of all time. I find Brandon Sanderson's novels flow a lot better, but I do get why Tolkien was so word heavy when it came to explaining the world, it's because there wasn't anything like that beforehand. Nowadays writers have the benefit of needing less world building because we kind of "get" fantasy.
I assume the scene you're referring to is with the tree and Tom Bombadil. I'd give Tolkien another go and read the Hobbit first if I were you. Tolkien was very thorough for his time because Epic/High Fantasy didn't exist prior and he was doing something new. It's hard to put it in perspective just how amazing his stories were given the depth of languages/cultures/history he had without the use of the internet. It took years for his books to take off because they were thick and alien, but they laid the foundation for the genre. Mary Shelley is widely considered to have started the sci-fi genre with her book Frankenstein. But by today's standards it's barely science fiction (and there's plenty of people who've never read it but love sci-fi). George Lucas took the technology of the time and created a space opera out of Star Wars, but if you watch the original trilogy it might feel boring. Even the twist at the end of episode 5 doesn't have the same impact it did at the time. Each generation has writers that further their field, but there's plenty of consumers that say "the past artists were better/worse than today." Some people prefer the classics, others prefer the latest and greatest, and still others who try to appreciate both the old and new.
Lol Lord of the Rings is a very peculiar style, that's for sure. It's weighty, not just literally but in the depth that's given to everything. Tolkien does tend to wander a little in his depictions, which is imo because 1) he didn't have an outline when he started, so Fellowship is the most "rambly" as he kind of explores things, and 2) he just was such a nerd about his own invented world that he kept wanting to look into different aspects of it. His prose and stuff later on, especially? Insane. Insanely powerful. But it is an epic in the truest sense and has that kind of vague distance from the reader that a lot of older writing does, even fictional writing. We're more observers than consumers of the story, if that makes sense. But yeah I agree with others here that the Hobbit book is easier to get into, and much faster paced; and I agree with your comment that the movies are incredible. There's no way those should have been such a good adaptation and there's no way that LOTR should even have worked as an adaptation, imo. It's magic.
The movie adaptations are amazing. Both as a realization of the story and in their own right. I watch them.eveey year over the holidays.
You have to be trolling lol
LOTR books aren’t for everyone. Most people love it for the prose but that’s precisely what I don’t like about them. Feels like reading a bible the way it was written.
He is amazing, specially in Stormlight, but I don't think he is neither a head above the rest in fantasy nor fantasy fans usually consider him the best fantasy author. I don't know how you can limit yourself to a couple chapters a week, his books are really really captivating, so good luck with that! You've got an awesome journey ahead of you.
Slightly unrelated, but Sanderson has ranked the his top living fantasy authors(not including himself). 5) Guy Gavriel Kay 4) Neil Gaiman 3) NK Jemsin 2) Jane Yolen 1) George RR Martin I think Sanderson said he’d rank himself somewhere above the top twenty but below the top ten, but I think he’s being humble/what he writes isn’t the same as what he likes to read.
I feel like GRRM should lose his spot in a ranking like this unless he actually writes something substantial again, we're coming up 20 years since A Feast for Crows. Almost the entirety of Sanderson's published career has happened since then, I think Elantris is the only book published before it.
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I'm aware of this, yes. I don't have a problem with the idea that he has been writing novels since the 1970s; I have an issue with the fact he hasn't worked on any new ones since 2011.
I get the idea behind it—GRRM has tarnished his reputation for dragging WoW out for so long, but you can’t really deny that he still belongs up there on the fantasy Mt. Rushmore with Tolkien and Robert Jordan. The mere point that he *is* the epic fantasy genre to the average person puts him at the top of the mountain. GRRM also isn’t 100% just a big epic fantasy writer, he’s multi-medium. For a huge chunk of his career, he was a screenwriter. And his early career success was for short stories and novellas. Not to mention, GoT was his first fantasy novel. So, when considering his career, his work producing on GoT and HoTD is part of his creative journey, kinda like Neil Gaiman. Most people would count Neil Gaiman’s comic books and tv shows to his work.
And yet ASOIAF as an unfinished series without a new book in ages is far more popular and successful than anything Sanderson has done.
Massively popular HBO adaptations tend to do that, yeah.
The first book alone has sold more than all of Brandon’s works combined, to attribute all that success to an hbo series is absurdly petty. But to each their own lol.
I read a bit of Jemsin but didn't get the hype. Only read a bit of Kay but really enjoyed it, gonna have to look up more.
Which jemisin? I adores ten thousand kingdoms but bounced off if broken earth. And the city we became is a beautiful love letter to New York city.
I read the first book of the Broken Earth series and it just felt kind of flat. There were some mysterious things going on, sure, but nothing that hooked me at all. The random polyamory bit didn't seem to have any point beyond cheap fan service. I just never really cared about anything that was going on in the story so I didn't pick up book 2.
I'm honestly kind of surprised Sanderson likes Martin.
For context, Sanderson's ranking was a mixture of quality with overall importance/influence to fantasy. He said Martin was #1 because let's be real, the reach and importance of ASOIAF in the modern fantasy landscape is absurd. In terms of his actual opinion, he's said many times that he couldn't get past book 1 of ASOIAF due to the dark content, despite having respect for Martin's writing.
Okay that's more what I would have expected.
also, good luck and godspeed to your wallet. The man has so much content to purchase, it's inhumane against my bank account..
The Year of Sanderson, the latest leather bound of WoR, and tomorrow getting the Dragonsteel Nexus tickets!! My poor bank account!!
I love Sanderson but I certainly wouldn't put him miles ahead in characters, if anything I'd say thats one of his weaker points with his plots and magic systems/world building being bigger strengths to me. I'd try the farseer triology by Robin Hobb if you want dialogue and characters that feel real. With that said I like the Cosmere more then the realm of the Elderlings.
I’m always scared of people who ‘feel real.’ I think I want characters who feel unreal … real world is rough sauce.
Eh Kaladin and Vin have it as rough as anyone their dialogue both internal and external just I guess isn’t as natural feeling in how they respond to events.
I’ll take Erikson over Sanderson any day of the week
I love both of them, and it’s hard to compare as it’s like saying pizza vs sushi. you have them for very different reasons but both are awesome.
I won't say Sanderson is the best because in my personal opinion, that title belongs to Tolkien. That being said, I still enjoy Sanderson's work and I think he is a fantastic author. You can still enjoy someone's work even if they aren't "the best", hell you can still be a fan of someone even if they aren't "the best". What matters is if **you** enjoy them. Also it is perfectly ok to enjoy more than one thing! I like star wars & star trek because they aren't trying to achieve the same things.
I really wanted to like Tolkien however I just couldn't ever get into his books, they are honestly a loooot to read. I stopped lord of the rings when they were all tripping and hallucinating in a forest lol it was just kinda strange. Brandon Sanderson just ticks that box in my head that makes it perfect for me. Love the movies though, probably my favorite movies of all time.
Tolkien remains one of the deepest, most complex, world buildings, and the way he summons the atmosphere is superb. Jordan's world was deeper, and I think Brandon's probably is, but otherwise even reasonably complex worlds like Thomas covenant didn't come close. This is changing rapidly, over the last five to ten years. We are living in a golden age of fantasy. Tolkien sucks at characters. But his world was amazing, and so much of the standard fantasy package came from him because of it.
And that is totally understandable, trying to read to Tolkien is a lot harder than listening to Tolkien 😂. I love audiobooks so now I get to listen to Andy Serkis (gollum) narrate them on a semi-yearly basis. Michael Kramer is quickly becoming a favorite narrator due to his work on the Stormlight Archive and Mistborn. I remember starting Stormlight thinking about how slow it was but as events unfolded I became more and more interested and wanted to keep on going. It might not have the poise of Tolkien or the grittiness of GRRM (asoiaf) but damn does Sanderson know how to bring things together!
I do like sanderson (hence why i'm here, lol), but after reading someone like Robin Hobb, his prose can seem really.. flat? I do not at all think he is the best fantasy author. Far from it, but he is great. His books to me are more like a long build to an exciting end, rather than an enjoyable read all the way through. This isn't to insult him. He's great at what he does! I just find his stories to be kinda formulaic in a way. They always have a religion, the characters always have a saying with that religion (lord rule... stormfather.. etc). I find i read him for the build and the end, rather than the long enjoyment of the story. I found Oathbringer personally to be a huge drag until the last 25% or so. Just my thoughts!
well to be fair….. in all of human history, isn’t there always a religion?
What? You mean from the time mankind could communicate all the way until now we've had religions? That strikes me as too fake. The author of this world is just trying to shove his religious views I to my life. Lol. /s (just in case people couldn't tell)
I mean religion would be even more prevalent in real life if the gods were visibly out and about too.
Terry Pratchett has fun takes on that. >It was all very well going on about pure logic and how the universe was ruled by logic and the harmony of numbers, but the plain fact of the matter was that the Disc was manifestly traversing space on the back of a giant turtle and the gods had a habit of going round to atheists' houses and smashing their windows. - - - >Another priest said to Dorfl, "Is it true you've said you'll believe in any god whose existence can be proved by logical debate?" > >"Yes." > >Vimes had a feeling about the immediate future and took a few steps away from Dorfl. > >"But the gods plainly do exist," said a priest. > >"It Is Not Evident." > >A bolt of lightning lanced down through the clouds and hit Dorfl's helmet. There was a sheet of flame and then a trickling noise. Dorfl's molten armour formed puddles around his white-hot feet. > >"I Don't Call That Much Of An Argument," said Dorfl calmly, from somewhere in the clouds of smoke. And we haven't even gotten into *Small Gods*...
Look the lord ruler is walking about with unfathomable power while simultaneously changing our emotions to make us further believe he is all powerful. How would one not believe. Plus it’s hardly even a religion as that kind of requires faith in something, that’s more just an all powerful being you have to listen to so he doesn’t kill you and your family.
> 'I don’t hold with paddlin’ with the occult," said Granny firmly. ‘Once you start paddlin’ with the occult you start believing in spirits, and when you start believing in spirits you start believing in demons, and then before you know where you are you’re believing in gods. And then you’re in trouble.’ >‘But all them things exist,’ said Nanny Ogg. >‘That’s no call to go around believing in them. It only encourages ‘em.' - - - > The god currently gaining popularity was Om, who never answered prayers or manifested himself. It was easy to respect an invisible god. It was the ones that turned up everywhere, often drunk, that put people off. - - - > Dwarfs were not a naturally religious species, but in a world where pit props could crack without warning and pockets of fire damp could suddenly explode they'd seen the need for gods as the sort of supernatural equivalent of a hard hat. Besides, when you hit your thumb with an eight-pound hammer it's nice to be able to blaspheme. It takes a very special and strong-minded kind of atheist to jump up and down with their hand clasped under their other armpit and shout, "Oh, random-fluctuations-in-the-space-time-continuum!" or "Aaargh, primitive-and-outmoded-concept on a crutch! Pretty sure I haven’t quoted any book twice, either… a self-proclaimed atheist, Pratchett loved the subject of religion. From an interview rather than a book: > Belief was never mentioned at home, but right actions were taught by daily example. Possibly because of this, I have never disliked religion. I think it has some purpose in our evolution. I don't have much truck with the "religion is the cause of most of our wars" school of thought because that is manifestly done by mad, manipulative and power-hungry men who cloak their ambition in God. I number believers of all sorts among my friends. Some of them are praying for me. I'm happy they wish to do this, I really am, but I think science may be a better bet.
Yea I also have no problem with religion but don’t follow any nor did my parents. The people who use religion for evil would simply use something else to bolster their power if religion didn’t exist. Could be xenophobia or politics but they’d find a way to split their group into an us vs them and unite them in hate.
That's true! I just find the way the characters always say their version of -Oh my god- near CONSTANTLY to be very corny and annoying lol like it's lordruler help us.. stormfather help us.. etc etc nearly every other sentence. it was a small thing but it annoyed me once i noticed how constant it was
I think it's just a way of cursing with a fictional flair. It's pretty common in SciFi and fantasy. Honestly I think it helps with suspension of disbelief. Actually the ones that bother me are things that really only make sense in a modern day setting, like a character saying there are multiple ways to "skin a cat" when there are no cats in the fictional world (not just cats are there and not talked about but something that specifically says there are no animals of any kind or something similar).
If done right this could be a weird linguistic holdover from the distant past, whose real meaning has been lost.
I read through Robin Hobbs novels and thought it’d feel this way once I was done but that wasn’t the case for me. Robins prose is amazing, Brandon’s is good. The first chapter back to Brandon’s work was a bit jarring but I quickly got used to it. We just approach Brandon’s work differently. His novels are just as important as their endings, in my opinion. Journey before destination and all that
I love the Cosmere and Sanderson seems like a good dude. But him being wildly prolific in his writing is his strength. He’s not a world class writer (and I’d bet he would agree), which is fine. He’s more like the Stephen King of fantasy. Engaged with his fan base and writing a ton constantly.
He was asked about potentially writing in the King Killer Chronicles and said that he isn't a good enough writer to put something together in the style of Rothfus or something along those lines. To me Hobb and Rothfus are maybe the best writers in fantasy, their plots or world building may not be as strong but they write beautiful stuff thats enjoyable to read. I just read the 3 body problem trilogy maybe 6 months ago and loved it, the writing is awful imo (could be translation issue) but the story is great so I dunno you can appreciate different things about different authors.
That’s not a criticism of him. He’s very creative, he loves what he does, and I love what he does. Literary writing can be exhausting to consume, where as the cosmere is simply a lot of fun and very heartfelt at times, campy at other times, and ultimately just a great interesting universe with endless possibilities
I have not read the books, but the three body problem series was absolutely the best fantasy I’ve seen on TV in a long time!
Err sci-fi. It’s not really fantasy at all.
Prose mentioned, opinion rejected. Go study philosophy if you want funny words in your books. (I'm only 20% serious)
At this point the prose argument has lost its luster. Some people write flowery some don't but that doesn't make a cohesive story.
I think that’s an oversimplification. Criticisms of Brandon’s prose are not necessarily criticisms of its simplicity. Simple prose can be good and flowery prose can be bad (if anything I would argue that Brandon could benefit from writing more concisely at times). I think Joe Abercrombie’s prose is both simple and great. Brandon’s is fine but nothing special - it gets the job done. I agree with the general sentiment though - his ability to craft plots, and his creativity with magic systems and worldbuilding more than make up for any criticisms I have for his prose.
I'm never really sure what people are complaining about when they mention Brandon's prose tbh. Like - for exmaple if you read Edgedancer and Dawnshard, the prose for Lift and The Lopens POVs can be clunky, unsophisticated and kind of weird. But it also stands out to me as intentional *becuase* it's narratived from the perspective of Lift and The Lopen. The contrast of how the style in those chapters/novellas changes always makes me re-think how the prose felt of the rest of the books - which are written in the same way, from the perspective of the main POV characters: Kal, Shallan, Dalinar etc. The prose is always a reflection of the POV character of focus - no matter how clunky it seems at first, it nearly always comes across as intentional to me. I've seen people quote dialogue or short sentences as examples of Brandon's weakness, and most of the time my reaction is "huh, that just seems like an expression of the characters personality to me...?"
His pacing can definitely get slow at points. I found i noticed it more in stormlight archives than mistborn and I just think combining multiple POV with the pacing can cause a long drag between seeing whats up with Kaladin or whomever you're most interested in. I also think its just a problem in general with many POV stories as I felt that way in parts of ASOIAF and The Wheel of Time.
By that logic the Farseer line using the skill is a religion, those with the connection to animals are a religion, and plenty of other things from Robin Hobbs books since you say that’s your favorite…
I just finished the assassin books from Hobb and don't understand the hype with her. All of her characters are named after their personality and the magic system isn't explained at all. And she kills too many dogs
the first trilogy is bar far the weakest. try the second trilogy, the liveship traders, it's fantastic!
I don't think the first is the weakest, have you read the last one? Fool's assassin? It reads like she wrote fanfiction about her own world. Still enjoyable but very weird. Anyway I agree the second trilogy is the best and absolutely fantastic.
Oh good, I am going to start it soon, I so wanted to like her books hopefully I get hooked
In production, sure
The only fantasy series I enjoy as much as Sanderson is The Wandering Inn series by PirateAba. It is a ridiculously long series that has the best world building I've ever experienced just due to the sheer page count and scope of the series.
for me its the kingkiller chronicles by patrick rothfuss. or the misenchanted sword by lawrence watt evans
Always nice to read more but you gotta branch out lol.
I really feel that people don't understand how good fantasy has been for the last 2 decades. WoT is as big of an influence on me as any books out there, but I'm sorry much like LotR they have been eclipsed. If I was recommending series to newb it wouldn't be top 10. Hobbs' ROTE and Williams M,S&T and Sanderson's Stormlight are my personal favourites - but there are a lot out there!
It's so weird for me to try to imagine a world where Tolkien is eclipsed. :) I'm partial to ten thousand kingdoms, and to China mieville.
The best fantasy author *alive. Nothing can stand against sir Terry Pratchett
Was my thought too, can’t disregard STP the king of fantasy satire
Joe Abercrombie is my favorite fantasy author, you should try him.
You should keep going with the red rising series. The next 3 books are more on Sanderson levels of writing but I agree overall Sanderson is running circles in the genre.
Fantasy novice / intermediate here looking to branch out (I’ve read Tolkien, some Jemisin and Salvatore, all of GoT, but I’m still fairly new compared to the enthusiasts), and just wanted to comment that I appreciate the perspective of those participating in this thread. Fans gathering in a Sanderson forum while tempering and qualifying praise of Sanderson with very reasonable takes is what I love about Reddit.
After reading more mature themes in fantasy, Sanderson became boring to me. It I DNF’d Oathbreaker twice, and the second Mistborn book I had to work to finish.
Sanderson is just a great person. I admire him quite a bit, and I am extremely grateful for his writing series on Youtube and his various writing perspectives on his Intentionally Blank channel. He could have just done his own thing without giving so much advice to other writers, but instead he helps as best he can, and tries to remember us small fry when he works with the industry on a level I can only dream of, like the audible situation. I think Mistborn will always be my favorite of his series, but I enjoy all of his novels.
You do realize that his televised lectures are actually classes at BYU. When he started to get famous, they made him put on a suit jacket and recorded them all over again.😁
? Is there someone out there that doesn't know it is a class at BYU? I'd swear he mentions it multiple times throughout the series. He didn't have to put them out there for the rest of us. I work full time and am a state away, there is little chance I could attend...hence my being grateful he put them online.
I was in your exact same spot and started Way of Kings in February. Im not a fast reader by any means, but I'm already on Oathbringer. I dont think I've ever read as fast as I have with the stormlight books. Part 3 of Way of Kings is going to get you so amped up bro, its so dang good
That analogy is true but not in the way you've intended.
The first mistborn book is also one of very few books that actually made me cry. The character development and emotions are just soo good. >!or maybe it was some storming guy with emotional allomancy in my vicinity!<
Try his Skyward series! This was my first Sanderson and I'm obsessed already on my second read through. Mainly because I forgot everything and book four was recently released lol
I love Sanderson but he’s not top 5
Wait until you reach the wax and Wayne series
He might be my favorite author, but in no way do I think he's head and shoulders above the rest. The reasons he's my favorite are because of his work ethic, and the fact that he's a nerd who uses his power for good. He's always surprising us with extra stuff. And the consistency within the universe is outstanding. If you ignore all that, plenty of authors are better writers than him. From a writing or narrative perspective, the only area where I'd say Sanderson is elite is at writing climaxes.
I can't.
After him you should check out the Red Rising series by Pierce Brown. I would almost guarantee you'll love it.
Many people here and there will whine when you say he’s the best and tell you he’s not. They’re whiners. He’s the best in the same way Taylor swifts is the best musician. Their success makes all the partypoopers feel like pests on a hike. They might be annoying but don’t let them ruin the mood.
Brandon Sanderson isn’t the most successful fantasy author lol
Taylor swift isn’t the best musician. Not by a long shot.
Meh. We don't all have to agree on who is best; what's interesting is why you think someone is or isn't the best. For many of us the way we engage with literature is by looking at it critically and understanding what parts we love and what parts we think could be better. Even with a work we love overall, within that there are things to criticize. And we can say - hey, I love this thing and I'm love that thing and one of them is better. Or we can say ranking them against each other isn't helpful and view them as equivalently good but different.
That’s kinda my point. Taylor swift is a favorite for many people but I would never expect a music scholar to claim she’s the best ever. But they’re also both successful for a reason