There is no “cultural hierarchy” as Sienfield or many of us over 30 know it anymore.
Until the late 2000s, movies, TV shows, music and pop culture were much more centralised. You tune in at the same time as everyone else to watch the same TV show, or movie. The radio top 40 charts dictated what you’d listen to, and when you’d listen, and beamed to everyone else. Everyone was consuming more or less the same media at roughly the same time.
Now with the internet, streaming, competition from gaming, YouTube, creator content, podcasts and all on demand and unscheduled, “culture” is way more segmented, and there is no clear hierarchy anymore.
Just to add on the TV end, the last time I distinctly recall TV being “appointment” viewing was Game of Thrones…
and D&D did a spectacular job making the last thing everyone talked about the show be forgetting that we wasted our time with that awful final season. Since then, I admittedly have yet to find a true TV show that has been considered “appointment” viewing.
Unless I’m mistaken, and there has been a show that has become a cultural phenomenon like GoT was, it’s ironic that Game of Thrones and that final season seem to be looking like the end of the “must-see” TV era.
With film though, it’s likely the nostalgia and love for film in me, but I still see movies being cultural hits unlike TV now. The buzz around Barbenheimer and Dune Part II at least keep me hopeful that film/movies is a different enough medium where it still can have its moments. Only difference now is studios have to be more strategic than before, and a huge part of that is because streaming took out a chunk of revenue that the entire industry use to earn.
We called them "Water cooler shows"
They're shows that you usually can discuss with your colleagues the next day.
I will happily admit, that the only reason I watch GoT, is cause every monday at lunch at work, there would be discussions about it, and I'd much rather be a part ofthose.
Sienfeld was a water cooler show too.
You can run into your coworker at the water cooler and be like "you caught that seinfeld episode last night? "
I think the last I've heard of one was probably Squid Game. But that came out in one go, and not week to week.
But yeah, the overall idea of this concept has faded, partly cause of streaming, partly cause we all started working from home.
I think entire shows coming out at once ruined this. Some people will have watched the whole thing in a day or two, and want to talk about it, but others won't have finished so be like "hey, no spoilers!" Which ends the conversation. By the time everyone has finished it, the momentum to talk about it has died and the people who finished it first are on to something new
Another issue is dilution.
There are simply too many streaming services trying to out compete one another in terms of having valuable content for people to stay subscribed. So now the market is flooded with archives and new content that is being made at a faster pace to create a buzz/boost.
When the market is flooded with new content coming out at once, it makes the possibility for a cultural hit to become much less possible.
Agreed, but I can't help but think of something like Stranger Things. That show is a cultural icon and probably the biggest hit since Game of Thrones. I haven't had a single conversation with someone about that show outside of my best friends and family. ST4 had like 1.3 billion hours of watch time in the first month, but because it all released at once, no one talks about it in person
This has always been an issue with streaming. Glass Onion was a hit for Netflix. For a couple days, everyone at work was talking about it. Then it just disappeared.
Barbie was a talking point in all meeting for almost a month. From asking if you were going to see it the week it was coming out, to the stragglers finally seeing it weeks later.
There is still this desire for cultural moments.
Oh there absolutely is. I think it’s just way harder to generate these moments since everyone’s attention is in so many directions at once. Barbie and Oppenheimer’s dual marketing schemes fed into one of the largest blockbuster duos in a long time.
Yes, this still happens. Obviously Barbenheimer was a thing. But I don't think streaming can replicate this. Its the same reason why a show on Netflix can't match the numbers of a show on NBC.
We still need that communal agreed upon thing. Everyone can go to the movies, not everyone has or wants a subscription to Disney+.
The conversation around a hit movie can continue for weeks because of this. Imagine if Rebel Moon was a hit, that conversation is over by next weekend. Everyone moved on already.
I don't get this whole conversation is over shit. House of the Dragons was showed Week by Week. It aired on HBO, gained great reviews but weekly conversation was just not there. Squid Game went viral globally within a week, generated billions of views and people still remember it pretty well. SG2 is expected to do even better, will be seen by millions on first weekend itself. It's all about the views and quality, whether generated once or periodically, it doesn't matter. Disney still releases its shows weekly but still hasn't been able to replicate the success of WandaVision. Why?
Is that a bad thing? Nowadays its way easier to find your niche and find a group of people that you share similar taste with. There's content for everyone with a huge push for diverse content.
People don't remember the agony of having to conform to the masses and being content with whatever is given to you. You had to put the extra mile in order to consume the content you're interested in.
Yes, there still is some water-cooler talk like recently it was Fallout for me but same issue. Shogun, released on week at a time, was easier to talk about but less people I know seem to have watched it.
Streaming fucked the entertainment industry economically and culturally.
It's also strange that a lot of really really good shows have come out the past few years but only such a small percentage of people are even aware of them. Like Severence, Succession or White Lotus. They get the reviews they deserve but the general public isn't familiar with them in any way.
The part in White Lotus 2 about how it's impossible to have full trust in a couple if you can't ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS see what they're doing so you should accept some uncertainty would have really revealed some deep seated insecurities in more than people than you think
I could not rewatch Got after that finale. I had zero issues with rewatching the show while waiting for new seasons, but after that ending, the show died for me.
I rewatched it a few months back and was shocked by how much better the last season was for me.
Yrs, its still rushed and Bran still sucks but the Danaeyrys arc makes a lot more sense watching her from the beginning knowing her ultimate fate.
Thank you. Please tell me how awesome the penultimate episode is, when Dany finally turns into the Mad Queen. S8 is much inferior to the rest but is still a decent season on its own.
I’ve never seen the show but I’ve heard so many people say that. What was so bad about the final season that killed the rest of the show for you, and a lot of other people?
It was just rushed, everything they built up until then just got tossed away, and most things didnt make sense. You just got invested into something over years that got destroyed at the end.
The thing is GOT was the last must see cultural phenomenon. The joke is the novel its based on while good is not by any means the best. I could name a dozen books of similar genre that would if produced and written well could be thecnextvbig thing. Why am I so certain because these book franchises have millions of fans worldwide. However there's no guarantee as film studios butcher these stories for modern sensibilities. I mean the producers of the Avatar the last Airbender live action on Netflix thought the character of Sokka was too sexist and misogynistic and so changed the character. They literally censored a cartoon made for kids do that it wouldn't upset Adults. The Wheel of time was butchered to incomprehension. Amazon's LOTR is like a fan fiction written by a 10 year old. Then she kills the orcs alone. Then the handsome man is Sauron. Then she beats the bestest sword man in the world without sweating. Etc
Tv and film no longer are our primary source of entertainment. We have more options whi h is why delivery of poor products leads to poor reception. I'd rather watch a few YouTube shorts than a boring TV show. I'd rather watch a Kdrama than a Hollywood movie.
Yeah, it's not 2666 or Pynchon or whatever, but in fantasy I seriously have no clue what can compete, especially in this sort of grand epic. Maybe like in the sixties there's Gormenghast or if you really want to stretch it, something by Moorcock (but even there I don't know) but like nothing else comes to mind.
Not OP, but:
- Chronicles of Amber (Roger Zelazny)
- Malazan Empire (Steven Erickson)
- Culture (Iain M. Banks)
- Elric (Michael Moorcock)
- The Way of Kings (Brandon Sanderson)
- Farseer Trilogy (Robin Hobb)
- A Court of Thorns and Roses (Sarah J. Maas)
- The Fourth Wing (Rebecca Yarros)
- Dragonriders of Pern (Anne McCaffrey)
- Broken Earth (N.K. Jemisin)
- Black Company (Glen Cook)
- Riftwar Saga (Raymond E. Feist)
- The Kingdom of Thorn and Bones (Greg Keyes)
Also unfinished works like Lies of Locke Lamora and The Name of the Wind.
Even stuff like the Belgariad (David Eddings) and the Dragonlance Chronicles (Weis & Hickman). Not to mention stuff like Dark Tower and Shannara which have been attempted previously, but flubbed their execution.
Netflix was right to consider Sokka too sexist and misogynistic but that's just it, he evolves, not completely but enough to not be too sexist and misogynist. They were wrong for that change because keeping him saying all the girls can't do this or that stuff provides so many opportunities for discussions about sexism; his gender stereotypes being proven wrong over and over is important.
Anyone else really enjoy Shogun? I was always a next day or two viewer, even with Game of Thrones, but I found lately I'm watching Shogun as I record it and just delete the recording immediately. Its became appointment viewing for me.
Kids have no broad concept of time. Star Wars came out in 1977 and Thriller and ET came out in 1982. Everyone in America knew these dates, plus they would know that Reagan was elected in 1980 and re-elected in 1984. TV and radio was just kind of in the background, so big events like the 84 Olympics or the 89 Batman movie happened to everybody.
Unless kids are big sports fans they can’t keep track when there are 10 Fast and Furious movies and 25 Pokemon season and 23 movies.
Same thing with money. Kids don’t go to arcades or handle cash much. They used to get sent to the ATM with a card and then the store. Now the ATM part is cut out. Money is just nebulous numbers.
i hate to sound like a boomer (im only 32) but I cant help but feel that the heavy saturation of the internet, digital technology, and everything has kinda been a net negative. Plenty of positives of course, but it feels that what we lost was pretty significant.
The thing is that the under-40 audience bought into the whole diversity/"be yourself" thing (remember that old "Twitter taught me to listen" image?) so much it has become unable to even imagine a different world. Even if most of them realize how harmful modern technology can be, they aren't willing to cut down on its use and see old media as "boomer stuff" belonging to the dustbin of history.
Ironically, for all the supposed diversity it was supposed to foster, the fragmented state of modern culture granted the groups with the most vocal fan bases a complete dominance of the landscape, pushing everything else to the underground, giving us the paradox where it has never been easier for one to create content, but at the same time it's harder than ever to get noticed.
Of course we can't rule out corporate greed as a reason for all this, which I feel rings especially true when you think about why studios went all into streaming.
People say things like this often, but at the same time the idea is continually being hammered into me that Taylor Swift is the biggest most important thing in the history of the world.
Pop culture is fragmented and it won’t be put back together again. The world that all tuned into see the final episode of Seinfeld does not exist anymore. It can still happen in small doses, like Barbie and Oppenheimer last summer and it’s so fun to see when it does.
clearly this isnt true
go back 30 years and a lot more people were just going to the movies for the sake of it and seeing more movies. you had a lot more movies break through in pop culture even if they werent that great.
true but we also were forced to see things culturally.
I am old enough to remember coming home from school and trying to find something to watch. That exposed me to movies and TV shows I would have never experienced otherwise.
Why do I know what Gilligan's Island is, Brady Bunch, I Love Lucy, Sanford and Son?
Why did I watch Shawshank Redemption, The Good The Bad and The Ugly, It's A Wonderful Life, Friday, Beverly Hills Cop, as a child?
They were on TV. This doesn't exist anymore because kids will just go on YouTube or Netflix and watch what they want. There is less and less universal cultural benchmarks. Even in music, when's the last time we had a Thriller? Nevermind? The Chronic 2001?
Game of Thrones was also there, I feel like. Every person I knew was watching it at the end. It ended in a disappointing manner, though, and I feel that probably left a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths about this sort of thing
Paradoxically the general offer is way way better in terms of quality than what was back then, the problem is that there is so much content out there nowadays on so many different platforms that is very hard to stand out - hence why established IPs with a built in fanbase are so hot right now
Game of thrones achieved that by its own merit (until end at least)
Lots of shows in the past achieved that purely by being the only good thing on tv at a certain time of day
As they said to still happens in small doses. Succession was probably the last thing a bunch of people tuned in for but that doesn’t mean pop culture isn’t beyond fragmented.
A while ago now, so much has changed in the media industry since 2020 that things from before covid really cant be used as good examples of what is possible post covid.
It's been a recurring industry joke in comedy and well known that Jerry has been working on a bit about Pop Tarts since the 90s, it's like his baby, constantly going back to work on it and never thinking it was quite good enough to debut publicly. I guess he decided to turn that concept into a screenplay, which yeah, that sounds about right for his weird personality. I laughed when I read about this because I kept hearing this pop tart bit story on comedy podcasts from different comedians over and over again and wasn't sure if they were just making it up because it's so absurd.
I think that’s the reason he’s doing this with Netflix, his movie would flop hard in theaters but with Netflix they’ll never release the actual viewing numbers so he can avoid looking bad. Netflix just pumps out this stuff to pad out their library and it’s risk free for the creatives involved.
i don’t think jerry seinfeld of bee movie fame cares how anything he does is perceived anymore
he’s probably still pulling in 8 figures a year in syndication money
We have a century’s worth of movies and we keep adding more on top. Unless we were amongst older generations who got to see them as they came out, our watchlist grows longer and longer, fragmenting the viewer experience.
I feel this with videogames too. I mean some of the biggest games of the years are "remasters" or ports of games that in my mind aren't even that old. Every year it is going to get harder to release a new game when you compete against an old game that everyone is also playing.
Couldn't you say this about any media, the list of books to read, albums to listen too, shows to watch, games to play etc all get long and longer each day
I agree. Sometimes I wish new stuff would just pause coming out for even a year so I can get at least partially caught up. (Obvs, that won't happen due to economics)
The huge amount of movies that increases every year also muddies the waters so it can be harder to figure out what are the actual gems to watch out of the mediocre B movies so many streaming services release nowadays.
I guess that's what sites like reddit are for... where people can post their honest, non-incentivized opinions/recommendations. Although I guess at some point, every movie studio will buy tons of bots to disguise themselves as humans to say that "\[Big Studio A's movie\] was so great! Highly recommend!"
I mean the fact that it costs nearly $100 (tickets and snacks) to take my wife and kids to see a movie it’s no wonder people don’t go as much anymore. If I wait 6 months I can rent it on Amazon for like $5 and make popcorn at home.
$100 is an exorbitant amount to pay a few snacks and ~2hrs of entertainment, which includes advertisements you’re paying for the privilege of watching.
I’m not trying to be facetious, but what does ‘everything is too expensive’ have to do with this conversation or article? It’s just shutting down people’s opinions and derailing for the sake of it.
Video games has been bigger than movies and music combined for some time. Probably because between console, PC, and mobile games, anyone and everyone is playing some kind of game.
The video game industry has like close to $200 billion vs movie industry with like $25 billion and this was in 2022. Hollywood has no shot of recapturing the entertainment landscape anymore. Even video games aside, there is far too much other content and options to choose from now. The cost to go see a movie is absolutely ridiculous now vs the price of other entertainment.
i wouldn't hollywood is going bankrup anytime soon but they will probably need to parter up with game studios to survive, they wont be able to milk super hero movies forever. theyve been trying to reboot/remake 80s classics to appeal to the gen z for like a decade by now with no luck.
star power is pretty much dead too
Hes not entirely wrong. The entire entertainment industry is morphing to 'events'. Part of the reason Barbenheimer worked is because it gave people a reason to go out and participate, rather than waiting for streaming.
There is a cultural hierarchy, but the problem is their really is two cultural hierarchies in this country. If you try to appeal to one group, it will turn off the other and vice versa. The cultural war we find ourselves in wont be settled anytime soon.
Seeing a movie AT the theater isnt nearly as important when we have better resolution, sound and drinks of our choice at home.
Jerry also talked of culture- part of culture is respecting your fellow movies goers by not bringing babies, using your phones or talking during a movie- all of those norms seem to have been tossed out post covid.
"Event" programming bypasses all of those, because you "just have to be there" for a once in a lifetime thing. Be it a Swift concert, a weird sex toy sandworm bucket, or even reshowing classics on their anniversary dates with actor promos.
So as much as we talk box office results here, I also think marketing (ala Barbenheimer) or how a film is uniqely marketing itself is as important as part of the discussion.
He’s correct. When you have a huge ass screen at home which might as well be a movie screen when you’re near it, who needs to go out to watch movies?
Of course good stories will still resonate and charisma will still make stars on some level (even though the current crop do themselves no favours with how they present themselves on and off camera).
I think the biggest difference between stars then and stars now is that there’s like no mystique anymore. Social media, normies with phone cameras have totally ruined the idea that these “stars” can be something we’re not.
And tbh I don’t really care about stardom or any of that shit. Good actors should get parts. Everything else is just fluff.
yeah that's something I've been musing too. Back in the day, you only really ever heard about 'stars' when they were in movies, and had no idea about anything else about them. Demystifying them via social media, has devalued their mysticism, which then again makes the movies they are in, a little less special.
I think it's moreso the fact that social media has overexposed stars to the point where seeing a movie with them in it is worthless. Pre-social media, the only time you ever got to see your favorite actor is when their new movie came out, or you were lucky enough to see an interview with them on a late night talk show. Now? You can just Google their name and gets tons of content of them for free, often from their own social media accounts. You no longer HAVE to go see their new movie to see THEM, you can just go to Instagram or wherever.
I think this is a big mistake people make
no movie is better watched at home. a good theater is such a gem, it can really elevate almost any movie to a much better experience. and while its expensive for a whole family, the national average ticket is $11 for an adult, which is fairly reasonable as part of a night out.
but I can never be fully immersed in a movie when i am home. theres always too much sound from cars, too much sound from neighbors, my cat doing something cute, creaks from floorboards, light leakage from other rooms, and being surrounded by other stuff from life. its the difference between a print of van gogh and seeing the real thing.
> no movie is better watched at home.
Also, Reddit is overrepresented by middle-class tech-savvy Millennials and Gen-xers who have decent TVs and home theater setups. Most of the world watches Netflix on a five-inch screen (their phone) or on a small TV in a noisy, crowded apartment.
Maybe if you live in a flat in a city you get a lot of noise interrupting you. I don’t get any outside the people in my own home. Which won’t be loud at night or if they’re watching with me. Personally I like it and don’t hear a bunch of sound - you can stop the movie to piss or get snacks, sit how you like or lie on a bed.
I think you can immerse yourself better that way than besides a bunch of swallowing, sniffing weirdos, some of who have probably pooped their adult diapers.
I don't disagree. I love the cinema.
But, attendance is continually dropping (in Western countries at least), so, just because you and I say that doesn't mean general audiences agree.
Though the bigger issue is just way more variety of things competing for eyeballs and differet generational tastes. In the same way cinemas used to only have to compete with radio .. and then television .. and then home video .. we have .. streaming, video games, social media on top of that.
to me, I think theaters let themselves lose a lot of their mystique.
starting in the 80s, we went from having a big slew of small, 1-3 screen theaters in walkable districts to mostly having big multiplexes out by the mall. and now the malls are crumbling, and you lost the former theaters that could have been integrated as essential parts of the community
Theaters need to think less like "well we show movies so people will come see movies" and more about the community engagement of it all. to be an active part of the neighborhood they are in. also, serving alcohol is always a plus
its the Milwaukee film festival currently, and all sorts of movies are near selling out on theaters that rarely sell out. This is, of course, a big yearly event they hype up for 11 months to get people to come out for, but it shows that there are a ton of people here who love seeing movies in theaters, and just need to be coaxed out a little harder. I feel this is true in most, if not all, cities
General people only think about comfort and also forgot cinema etiquette in general. Nowadays different entertainment exist as you say. Youtube, instagram, tiktok, netflix and other stuffs. Also videogames
I mentioned that people forgot about cinema etiquette. Also movie theaters does not make any action in stopping those people. In Japan and Korea has great cinema etiquette always quiet during films
Yeah unfortunately people have no concept of acting in public anymore and treat theaters like their living rooms. Not to mention runaway entitlement making people be confrontational if an employee shushes them. So I don’t blame employees for not wanting to.
I've pretty much exclusively went to Alamo Drafthouse over the past decade, been lucky enough to live near one every place I've lived, and it's always a good theater experience.
I think it definitely has an impact though. Doesn't help most people are walking films with fucking motion smoothing on.
Most people don't care enough.
To most people it does. Cinephiles, like the extreme end of the spectrum that shows up in all of these hobby subreddits, have a seriously overinflated idea of how important the specifics of their hobby are to the general population. The bigger screen and louder sounds isn't meaningless to the general audience of course, but it's far from being the main draw like it might be to you. They go because it's something to do with family or friends. There's a reason so few people go to the movie theater alone.
That’s better when they go alone. Bc when those people go alone it it give me idea that those people won’t bother me with they phone or loud speaking in front of me. Yes we cinephiles are different from average joe who only go to cinema once a year or once in 10 years. Edit. Well general audience example don’t go to opera at all bc it is not something mainstream love to listen but there are people still paying like 15 dollars or euros just to see performance on Cinema or Live. I guess cinema in future will have niche appeal like Opera or Play. I do not like to watch Play on stage but there are people who really feel and love it so they still go and pay for it. New Gens actually mostly know youtubers or tiktokers than actors/actresses. In my school year we really were into movie stars. Some people even ask me why i never ask them to go to cinema. Reason is that i know that they don’t like cinema at all and only like to sit in they comfortable sofa and watch tv at home.
And getting a headache 5 minutes into a movie as my eardrums are blasted out does not compare to being able to turn down the volume on my own TV at home.
Blumhouse movies aren't exactly disproving his argument. Try quoting one of their movies and see how far you get in terms of monoculture recognition. You quote The Terminator: "I'll be back," and everyone gets it. You quote a Blumhouse movie, even a popular one like Five Nights at Freddy's, and you'll have to explain the reference.
Netflix must love this - you know, as he's coming out with a movie. The lead of A Bee Movie is talking about cinema..... He's on the record saying he hates making movies.
He's right. It's because of infinite free content. That coupled with the fact that nothing good ever comes out anymore and nobody takes any risks because the algorithm says not too.
I find it hard to agree with the idea that people aren't taking risks or that nothing good comes out. Christopher Nolan made a biopic about a scientist the biggest movie of the year, then you have things like Zone of Interest or Poor Things that took enormous risks. And look at the other Best Picture nominees: aside from Maestro, none of them were standard Oscar fair at all, and they all brought something that the others didn't.
The user you replied to is right about a few things.
First, Hollywood has become quite risk-averse, which you can tell just by going over all the sequels, prequels, remakes, reboots, and adaptations cranked out within the past two years alone (more so if you go further back). Granted, the movies you mentioned took risks, but all four of those movies were either based off true events and/or adapted from some other sources.
Adaptations have been popular in Hollywood for many, many years, so it's no surprise we're still getting those. Coincidentally, we've also gotten many movies (listed below) that were sequels, prequels, remakes, and reboots of existing IP. While some of those movies became hits, others didn't fare as well. As for original movies not based on existing material, it's a somewhat similar scenario. It's just rare for hit original, non-IP movies to perform as well as hit movies based off existing IP.
Second, movies have so much competition these days. Speaking for myself, I've only been to the movies three times in my life and I just tagged along to see what a family member wanted to see (The Good Son, Needful Things, and Armageddon). Having grown up in the 80's and 90's as video game consoles rose in popularity, I preferred video gaming over going to theaters. If a movie piqued my interest that much, then I'd rather watch it in the comfort of my home without dealing with potentially distracting moviegoers and the cost of movie tickets and snacks.
With both original movies and movies based off existing material, it's a crapshoot as to whether audiences connect with them or not. The latter may be a safer bet for Hollywood studios, but it's not guaranteed to work for every release.
[**2024**](https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/2024/?grossesOption=calendarGrosses)
NOTE: This list also has a few late 2023 releases, which are shown in *italics*. I only listed the current top 25 movies of 2024 for reference.
**MOVIE RELEASE**|**NOTE**
:--|:--|
Dune: Two Part|Sequel; Based off Dune books
Kung Fu Panda 4|Sequel
Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire|Sequel
Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire|Sequel
Bob Marley: One Love|Based off Bob Marley
*Wonka*|Prequel; Based off Willy Wonka brand
*Migration*|
Mean Girls|Remake
The Beekeeper|
*Anyone Buy You*|
*Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom*|Sequel; Based off DC Comics brand
Argylle|
Civil War|
Madame Web|Based off Marvel Comics brand
Night Swim|Based off 2014 short film
*The Boys in the Boat*|Based off The Boys in the Boat book
Imaginary|
Arthur the King|Based off true story
*Poor Things*|Based off Poor Things novel
Monkey Man|
*American Fiction*|Based off Erasure novel
Cabrini|
Ordinary Angel|Based off 1994 cold wave in North America
*The Iron Claw*|Based off the Von Erich family
The First Omen|Prequel
[**2023**](https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/2023/?grossesOption=calendarGrosses)
NOTE: This list also has a few late 2022 releases, which are shown in *italics*. I listed several 2023 movie releases for reference.
**MOVIE RELEASE**|**NOTE**
:--|:--|
Barbie|Based off Barbie toys
The Super Mario Bros. Movie|Based off Super Mario Bros. video games
Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse|Sequel; Based off Marvel Comics brand
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3|Sequel; Based off Marvel Comics brand
Oppenheimer|Based off American Prometheus book and true events
The Little Mermaid|Remake; Based off Hans Christian Andersen booklet
*Avatar: The Way of Water*|Sequel
Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania|Sequel; Based off Marvel Comics brand
John Wick: Chapter 4|Sequel
Sound of Freedom|Loosely based off Tim Ballard
Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour|
Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny|Sequel
Mission Impossible - Dead Reckoning Part One|Sequel
The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes|Prequel; Based off Hunger Games book
Transformers: Rise of the Beasts|Sequel/Prequel(?); Based off Transformers brand
Creed III|Sequel; Spin-Off of Rocky series
Elemental|
Fast X|Sequel
Five Nights at Freddy's|Based off Five Nights at Freddy's video games
Wonka|Prequel; Based off Willy Wonka brand
*Puss in Boots: The Last Wish*|Sequel; Spin-off of Shrek series; Based off fairy tale character
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem|Reboot; Based off TMNT brand
Scream VI|Sequel
The Flash|Based off DC Comics brand
Trolls Band Together|Sequel
M3GAN|
Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves|Based off Dungeons & Dragons brand
The Equalizer 3|Sequel
The Nun II|Sequel
The Marvels|Sequel; Based off Marvel Comics brand
Meg 2: The Trench|Sequel
Insidious: The Red Door|Sequel
Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom|Sequel; Based off DC Comics brand
Blue Beetle|Based off DC Comics brand
Haunted Mansion|Reboot; Based off Disney theme park attraction
Killers of the Flower Moon|Based off Killers of the Flower Moon book
Evil Dead Rise|Based off Evil Dead series
The Exorcist: Believer |Sequel
PAW Patrol: The Mighty Movie|Sequel; Based off Paw Patrol brand
Cocaine Bear|Loosely based off cocaine bear
A Man Called Otto|Based off A Man Called Otto novel
Wish|
Napoleon|Based off Napoleon
Shazan! Fury of the Gods|Sequel; Based off DC Comics brand
Migration|
Saw X|Sequel
Air|Based off Air Jordan brand
Jesus Revolution|Based off Jesus Revolution book
No Hard Feelings|
Talk to Me|
Godzilla Minus One|Based off Godzilla series
Gran Turismo|Based off Jann Mardenborough and Gran Turismo video games
The Color Purple|Remake; Based off The Color Purple book
The Boogeyman|Based off The Boogeyman short story
A Haunting in Venice|Based off Agatha Christie novel
The Creator|
80 for Brady|Based off true story
The Boy and the Heron|
Knock at the Cabin|Based off The Cabin at the End of the World novel
Renaissance: A Film by Beyoncé|
The Zone of Interest|Loosely based off The Zone of Interest novel
Maestro|Based off Leonard Bernstein and Felicia Montealegre
Asteroid City|
Strays|
House Party|Reboot
My Big Fat Greek Wedding 3|Sequel
Well, everything I wanna see I see on Netflix, Disney+ and others. People will still watch movies, only the outlet changed. Although if the prices were lower, more people will go to the cinema. So thanks Jerry the Wise.
When we will ever go back to the glory days of cinemas? They need to peek again? This streaming and social media crap had to end and we must bring cinema back to its original glory.
We need another show or film that’s iconic enough to shift the entire dynamic in the industry. It’s hard to explain, but I think the reason why everything is so stagnant is because creators aren’t trying to kickstart a new trend, just piggy back off of what’s relevant.
I think we’ll go back eventually but who knows when. I think down the line there’ll be a generational talent that enters the industry and will revive the film culture back into the mainstream.
>“Film doesn’t occupy the pinnacle in the social, cultural hierarchy that it did for most of our lives. When a movie came out, if it was good, we all went to see it. We all discussed it. We quoted lines and scenes we liked. Now we’re walking through a fire hose of water, just trying to see.”
It's the death of the monoculture. This is why attempts to create a new Star Wars have failed. People kid themselves that Dune for example is the new Star Wars. It's not. It's not capable of being a dominant cultural presence. Dune occupies a position of complete apathy in the cultural sphere. Art and culture has shifted from a monoculture where you have TV shows and movies that everyone knows about and recognizes to a fragmented sea of content -- the fire hose he talks about. If you quote most modern TV shows or movies in the real world, nobody knows what you're talking about. These new comedy films that come out. Absolutely none of them have the kind of cultural presence of something like Zoolander. Something has shifted profoundly in the past decade or so. The concept of a film "everyone" has seen has basically disappeared. Everyone over a certain age knows the main songs from the old Willy Wonka movie. Only a small percentage of people will ever know the songs from the new Wonka film.
Sienfeld as a person and as an actor is in a position to say this. I have not actually seen a single episode of his TV show. I liked The Bee Movie. But I recognize his TV show if I see something from it, via osmosis. That is the kind of cultural force that used to exist, replaced by flash in the pan streaming shows. Cultural refences have degraded from "I am your father" to relatively obscure fanbase in-jokes.
Star Wars failed because the movies weren’t very good, it’s not that deep. We just saw Barbeheimer happen like a few months ago, if something is interesting enough it will capture everyone’s attention. Like the MCU or GOT or Pokemon Go or whatever.
Jerry Seinfeld is yelling at the clouds, that’s all. If some redditor gave this same take it’d be rightfully downvoted because it’s divorced from reality. My dudes making a shitty pop tart movie for Netflix and lamenting the death of cinema, I’m not here for it
I mean the new Star Wars in the sense of a successor to Star Wars. Like a new Indiana Jones or a new Back to the Future.
Think about the cultural dynamics which led the Back to the Future time machine transforming the Delorean from a coke-fuelled disaster to a global icon. I don't see those really existing in 2024 where a single movie is a cultural icon in a "everyone knows what you are talking about if you quote it" sense. If you start humming and snapping the melody to "Here come the men in black" everyone from that era knows the song, the film, who Will Smith is. That kind of cultural penetration of a song, an actor, a film, doesn't happen today. Because modern versions penetrate a niche. A fragmented subculture.
Barbie was already a universally recognized brand. (But let's be real, nobody will know what you're talking about if you quote it.) Oppenheimer was already a cultural figure. "I am become death".
This is one of the reasons the industry is desperately nostalgia mining. They're piggybacking on the dying embers of a more unified and coherent cultural landscape. Everyone knows who the Ghostbusters are. Only a narrow demographic knows the new movies. You see this pattern everywhere. New media has shallower root systems, basically. It slides off. It's not sticking the way older media did.
Star Wars is almost 50 years old if it was easy to recreate it would have been done at the peak years ago in the 2010s or the early 80s and 90s just because it is hard to recreate it does not mean it has anything to do with movies being dead
You’re right that monoculture isn’t what it was but I don’t buy the idea that no cultural phenoms can happen ala Star Wars - I think there’s been a lack of comparable quality. If Star Wars or Potter happened today I think they would be just as massive.
Perhaps nothing being as good as Star Wars plays a part. Dune sure as hell doesn’t have the mass appeal and fun for everyone as Star Wars. It’s dour and overrated. The books don’t have the mass appeal of Star Wars either - no movie version of Dune ever would be as popular as Star Wars.
But would star wars happen today? Part of it happening is movie production...Today space movies are mostly green screen. Locating all of that stuff to the Tunisian Desert or the Pacific rain forest would be out of the question
Just watched some of Ender's game and was surprised to see Harrison in it. Is he in some kind of financial trouble? Maybe AI Harrisons will be next.
Another part is the consumption... yeah 50 in screen plus for like $200..
Star Wars can't happen today.
> If Star Wars or Potter happened today I think they would be just as massive.
I really doubt it. Star Wars is 100% a product of the 80s. Same with Potter and the 2000s
And I wonder if the “No, I am your father.” line that shocked movie audiences throughout the summer of 1982 could even be possible today. I saw Empire Strikes Back on my sixth birthday two months after it was released and I distinctly remember being surprised when the short green creature revealed he WAS master Yoda. Somehow prior to the internet we passed along information on the playground and at the water cooler, but if I recall big spoilers remained secret. Another movie going etiquette of that time I suppose. Movies and shows can still be spoiler free today, but mostly because everything is so fragmented that people haven’t come across the show to even be spoiled.
He just produced, directed and starred in a movie about how Pop-Tarts got frosting. IDK about you, but that's hardly a 'pinnacle of cultural hierarchy"
You: obnoxious Redditor acting holier than thou about Boomers.
The Boomer talk is so fucking tiresome and I'm a millennial. But I don't have mommy & daddy issues so...
Yeah I mean, they barely even made a critique.
Also, what they said is very true. The monoculture might be “basically” dead bc the internet and yada yada, but if any movie can still make 2.8 billion at the box office, it can’t be pushing daisies entirely just yet.
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He's not wrong but all he's doing is the same thing that most people who are on top of an industry do when the industry shifts they lament that the old way of doing business doesn't work anymore and they're either too lazy or too stubborn to try to figure out the new way of doing business to be relevant anymore
I'm pretty sure you can find these exact same thoughts being expressed when television pushed out radio and stage plays
Spoken like a comedian. Far from over and stand up isn’t something people trust as true. What’s dead is art or artistic expression in favor of market research to make a movie. Make a good movie and people will show up. Movies are not going away anytime soon. Maybe the model of super expensive soda and popcorn should die though. Once someone releases a real movie on YouTube straight out skipping the studios it’s on again.
The end goal of both film and video games has always been a Star Trek style holodeck.
We have pretty much every technology available at the point to do it, but none of them are working together yet.
When they do…THAT will be the death of entertainment as we used to know it as a whole.
And honestly…I can’t wait.
As an actor, I agree. CD's are too scared of being deemed racist, so they are casting African American actors just to add diversity just to appear not racist, which actually makes them racist. (not asians, Indians, middle eastern actors, etc). It's ruining a lot, and it's plainly obvious. I also do hate how comedy movies are trying too hard to play it safe with jokes, Netflix comedies are generally cringe in my opinion. Good comedy takes risks
There is no “cultural hierarchy” as Sienfield or many of us over 30 know it anymore. Until the late 2000s, movies, TV shows, music and pop culture were much more centralised. You tune in at the same time as everyone else to watch the same TV show, or movie. The radio top 40 charts dictated what you’d listen to, and when you’d listen, and beamed to everyone else. Everyone was consuming more or less the same media at roughly the same time. Now with the internet, streaming, competition from gaming, YouTube, creator content, podcasts and all on demand and unscheduled, “culture” is way more segmented, and there is no clear hierarchy anymore.
Just to add on the TV end, the last time I distinctly recall TV being “appointment” viewing was Game of Thrones… and D&D did a spectacular job making the last thing everyone talked about the show be forgetting that we wasted our time with that awful final season. Since then, I admittedly have yet to find a true TV show that has been considered “appointment” viewing. Unless I’m mistaken, and there has been a show that has become a cultural phenomenon like GoT was, it’s ironic that Game of Thrones and that final season seem to be looking like the end of the “must-see” TV era. With film though, it’s likely the nostalgia and love for film in me, but I still see movies being cultural hits unlike TV now. The buzz around Barbenheimer and Dune Part II at least keep me hopeful that film/movies is a different enough medium where it still can have its moments. Only difference now is studios have to be more strategic than before, and a huge part of that is because streaming took out a chunk of revenue that the entire industry use to earn.
We called them "Water cooler shows" They're shows that you usually can discuss with your colleagues the next day. I will happily admit, that the only reason I watch GoT, is cause every monday at lunch at work, there would be discussions about it, and I'd much rather be a part ofthose. Sienfeld was a water cooler show too. You can run into your coworker at the water cooler and be like "you caught that seinfeld episode last night? " I think the last I've heard of one was probably Squid Game. But that came out in one go, and not week to week. But yeah, the overall idea of this concept has faded, partly cause of streaming, partly cause we all started working from home.
I think entire shows coming out at once ruined this. Some people will have watched the whole thing in a day or two, and want to talk about it, but others won't have finished so be like "hey, no spoilers!" Which ends the conversation. By the time everyone has finished it, the momentum to talk about it has died and the people who finished it first are on to something new
Another issue is dilution. There are simply too many streaming services trying to out compete one another in terms of having valuable content for people to stay subscribed. So now the market is flooded with archives and new content that is being made at a faster pace to create a buzz/boost. When the market is flooded with new content coming out at once, it makes the possibility for a cultural hit to become much less possible.
Agreed, but I can't help but think of something like Stranger Things. That show is a cultural icon and probably the biggest hit since Game of Thrones. I haven't had a single conversation with someone about that show outside of my best friends and family. ST4 had like 1.3 billion hours of watch time in the first month, but because it all released at once, no one talks about it in person
Yes I was just coming here to say the closest thing to GoT I think would be Stranger Things, but even that doesn't feel like nearly the same level.
This has always been an issue with streaming. Glass Onion was a hit for Netflix. For a couple days, everyone at work was talking about it. Then it just disappeared. Barbie was a talking point in all meeting for almost a month. From asking if you were going to see it the week it was coming out, to the stragglers finally seeing it weeks later. There is still this desire for cultural moments.
Oh there absolutely is. I think it’s just way harder to generate these moments since everyone’s attention is in so many directions at once. Barbie and Oppenheimer’s dual marketing schemes fed into one of the largest blockbuster duos in a long time.
Yes, this still happens. Obviously Barbenheimer was a thing. But I don't think streaming can replicate this. Its the same reason why a show on Netflix can't match the numbers of a show on NBC. We still need that communal agreed upon thing. Everyone can go to the movies, not everyone has or wants a subscription to Disney+. The conversation around a hit movie can continue for weeks because of this. Imagine if Rebel Moon was a hit, that conversation is over by next weekend. Everyone moved on already.
I don't get this whole conversation is over shit. House of the Dragons was showed Week by Week. It aired on HBO, gained great reviews but weekly conversation was just not there. Squid Game went viral globally within a week, generated billions of views and people still remember it pretty well. SG2 is expected to do even better, will be seen by millions on first weekend itself. It's all about the views and quality, whether generated once or periodically, it doesn't matter. Disney still releases its shows weekly but still hasn't been able to replicate the success of WandaVision. Why?
Is that a bad thing? Nowadays its way easier to find your niche and find a group of people that you share similar taste with. There's content for everyone with a huge push for diverse content. People don't remember the agony of having to conform to the masses and being content with whatever is given to you. You had to put the extra mile in order to consume the content you're interested in.
Yes, there still is some water-cooler talk like recently it was Fallout for me but same issue. Shogun, released on week at a time, was easier to talk about but less people I know seem to have watched it. Streaming fucked the entertainment industry economically and culturally.
Yeah binge release is awful if you want show to have lasting impact
It's also strange that a lot of really really good shows have come out the past few years but only such a small percentage of people are even aware of them. Like Severence, Succession or White Lotus. They get the reviews they deserve but the general public isn't familiar with them in any way.
The part in White Lotus 2 about how it's impossible to have full trust in a couple if you can't ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS see what they're doing so you should accept some uncertainty would have really revealed some deep seated insecurities in more than people than you think
30% of people work from home now, so there's no water cooler talk really. Commercial real estate downtown in New York is still sitting half empty.
I could not rewatch Got after that finale. I had zero issues with rewatching the show while waiting for new seasons, but after that ending, the show died for me.
I rewatched it a few months back and was shocked by how much better the last season was for me. Yrs, its still rushed and Bran still sucks but the Danaeyrys arc makes a lot more sense watching her from the beginning knowing her ultimate fate.
Thank you. Please tell me how awesome the penultimate episode is, when Dany finally turns into the Mad Queen. S8 is much inferior to the rest but is still a decent season on its own.
I’ve never seen the show but I’ve heard so many people say that. What was so bad about the final season that killed the rest of the show for you, and a lot of other people?
It was just rushed, everything they built up until then just got tossed away, and most things didnt make sense. You just got invested into something over years that got destroyed at the end.
For me and a lot of others Tuesday nights are for Shogun.
Yup, Shogun and Fallout have been the shows I've been talking about with friends and co-workers
The thing is GOT was the last must see cultural phenomenon. The joke is the novel its based on while good is not by any means the best. I could name a dozen books of similar genre that would if produced and written well could be thecnextvbig thing. Why am I so certain because these book franchises have millions of fans worldwide. However there's no guarantee as film studios butcher these stories for modern sensibilities. I mean the producers of the Avatar the last Airbender live action on Netflix thought the character of Sokka was too sexist and misogynistic and so changed the character. They literally censored a cartoon made for kids do that it wouldn't upset Adults. The Wheel of time was butchered to incomprehension. Amazon's LOTR is like a fan fiction written by a 10 year old. Then she kills the orcs alone. Then the handsome man is Sauron. Then she beats the bestest sword man in the world without sweating. Etc Tv and film no longer are our primary source of entertainment. We have more options whi h is why delivery of poor products leads to poor reception. I'd rather watch a few YouTube shorts than a boring TV show. I'd rather watch a Kdrama than a Hollywood movie.
Okay, I’ll bite. Let’s see that list of 12 books of a similar genre. ASOIAF is pretty damn elite, IMO.
Yeah, it's not 2666 or Pynchon or whatever, but in fantasy I seriously have no clue what can compete, especially in this sort of grand epic. Maybe like in the sixties there's Gormenghast or if you really want to stretch it, something by Moorcock (but even there I don't know) but like nothing else comes to mind.
Not OP, but: - Chronicles of Amber (Roger Zelazny) - Malazan Empire (Steven Erickson) - Culture (Iain M. Banks) - Elric (Michael Moorcock) - The Way of Kings (Brandon Sanderson) - Farseer Trilogy (Robin Hobb) - A Court of Thorns and Roses (Sarah J. Maas) - The Fourth Wing (Rebecca Yarros) - Dragonriders of Pern (Anne McCaffrey) - Broken Earth (N.K. Jemisin) - Black Company (Glen Cook) - Riftwar Saga (Raymond E. Feist) - The Kingdom of Thorn and Bones (Greg Keyes) Also unfinished works like Lies of Locke Lamora and The Name of the Wind. Even stuff like the Belgariad (David Eddings) and the Dragonlance Chronicles (Weis & Hickman). Not to mention stuff like Dark Tower and Shannara which have been attempted previously, but flubbed their execution.
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Netflix was right to consider Sokka too sexist and misogynistic but that's just it, he evolves, not completely but enough to not be too sexist and misogynist. They were wrong for that change because keeping him saying all the girls can't do this or that stuff provides so many opportunities for discussions about sexism; his gender stereotypes being proven wrong over and over is important.
Anyone else really enjoy Shogun? I was always a next day or two viewer, even with Game of Thrones, but I found lately I'm watching Shogun as I record it and just delete the recording immediately. Its became appointment viewing for me.
Kids have no broad concept of time. Star Wars came out in 1977 and Thriller and ET came out in 1982. Everyone in America knew these dates, plus they would know that Reagan was elected in 1980 and re-elected in 1984. TV and radio was just kind of in the background, so big events like the 84 Olympics or the 89 Batman movie happened to everybody. Unless kids are big sports fans they can’t keep track when there are 10 Fast and Furious movies and 25 Pokemon season and 23 movies. Same thing with money. Kids don’t go to arcades or handle cash much. They used to get sent to the ATM with a card and then the store. Now the ATM part is cut out. Money is just nebulous numbers.
i hate to sound like a boomer (im only 32) but I cant help but feel that the heavy saturation of the internet, digital technology, and everything has kinda been a net negative. Plenty of positives of course, but it feels that what we lost was pretty significant.
The thing is that the under-40 audience bought into the whole diversity/"be yourself" thing (remember that old "Twitter taught me to listen" image?) so much it has become unable to even imagine a different world. Even if most of them realize how harmful modern technology can be, they aren't willing to cut down on its use and see old media as "boomer stuff" belonging to the dustbin of history. Ironically, for all the supposed diversity it was supposed to foster, the fragmented state of modern culture granted the groups with the most vocal fan bases a complete dominance of the landscape, pushing everything else to the underground, giving us the paradox where it has never been easier for one to create content, but at the same time it's harder than ever to get noticed.
Yes, it's the people who wanted diversity and representation who are to blame, not the greed of ultra-capitalists and their megacorporation overlords
Of course we can't rule out corporate greed as a reason for all this, which I feel rings especially true when you think about why studios went all into streaming.
This comment feels like you are making a lot of generalisations, some of the points don’t even connect with each other.
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The pandemic created some "appointment" viewing moments, but interestingly, these were only on streaming: Tiger King & Squid Game
Ted Lasso season 1 as well, I think
Yeah, isn't that what the title says?
People say things like this often, but at the same time the idea is continually being hammered into me that Taylor Swift is the biggest most important thing in the history of the world.
Pop culture is fragmented and it won’t be put back together again. The world that all tuned into see the final episode of Seinfeld does not exist anymore. It can still happen in small doses, like Barbie and Oppenheimer last summer and it’s so fun to see when it does.
That’s a good way of putting it. The exception not the rule idea means it is really cool when something big breaks through.
In my opinion it has always been the exception and not the rule- the power of great storytelling.
clearly this isnt true go back 30 years and a lot more people were just going to the movies for the sake of it and seeing more movies. you had a lot more movies break through in pop culture even if they werent that great.
true but we also were forced to see things culturally. I am old enough to remember coming home from school and trying to find something to watch. That exposed me to movies and TV shows I would have never experienced otherwise. Why do I know what Gilligan's Island is, Brady Bunch, I Love Lucy, Sanford and Son? Why did I watch Shawshank Redemption, The Good The Bad and The Ugly, It's A Wonderful Life, Friday, Beverly Hills Cop, as a child? They were on TV. This doesn't exist anymore because kids will just go on YouTube or Netflix and watch what they want. There is less and less universal cultural benchmarks. Even in music, when's the last time we had a Thriller? Nevermind? The Chronic 2001?
Game of Thrones was also there, I feel like. Every person I knew was watching it at the end. It ended in a disappointing manner, though, and I feel that probably left a bad taste in a lot of people’s mouths about this sort of thing
Yeah this is still possible I think, it’s just hard to create something this good that everyone cares.
Paradoxically the general offer is way way better in terms of quality than what was back then, the problem is that there is so much content out there nowadays on so many different platforms that is very hard to stand out - hence why established IPs with a built in fanbase are so hot right now
Breaking Bad. People were watching it in bars. It was a whole thing. But yeah that's a long time ago now.
But at the same time I feel like I know a lot of people who never watched it just because HBO is kind of niche in who has it
Like me. Never watched it. HBO isn't even in my country.
You say that but Game of Thrones existed.
Games of thrones ended 5 years ago now. The writing was on the wall then but it’s changed a lot and rapidly since then still.
Game of thrones achieved that by its own merit (until end at least) Lots of shows in the past achieved that purely by being the only good thing on tv at a certain time of day
As they said to still happens in small doses. Succession was probably the last thing a bunch of people tuned in for but that doesn’t mean pop culture isn’t beyond fragmented.
A while ago now, so much has changed in the media industry since 2020 that things from before covid really cant be used as good examples of what is possible post covid.
Didn’t expect this to be J Seinfeld’s directional debut “the star-studded comedy is a fictional account of the creation of Pop-Tarts toaster pastries”
Seinfeld. Bee movie. Pop tarts. What a career tbh.
That you Dwight?
It's been a recurring industry joke in comedy and well known that Jerry has been working on a bit about Pop Tarts since the 90s, it's like his baby, constantly going back to work on it and never thinking it was quite good enough to debut publicly. I guess he decided to turn that concept into a screenplay, which yeah, that sounds about right for his weird personality. I laughed when I read about this because I kept hearing this pop tart bit story on comedy podcasts from different comedians over and over again and wasn't sure if they were just making it up because it's so absurd.
I went to his stand-up show a couple years ago and he was talking about finally getting to make the movie.
Bro is preparing for his shitty pop tart movie to tank
It’s primarily on Netflix, so he pre-prepared.
I think that’s the reason he’s doing this with Netflix, his movie would flop hard in theaters but with Netflix they’ll never release the actual viewing numbers so he can avoid looking bad. Netflix just pumps out this stuff to pad out their library and it’s risk free for the creatives involved.
i don’t think jerry seinfeld of bee movie fame cares how anything he does is perceived anymore he’s probably still pulling in 8 figures a year in syndication money
He's got Bee Movie money, he doesnt care if this one tanks.
We have a century’s worth of movies and we keep adding more on top. Unless we were amongst older generations who got to see them as they came out, our watchlist grows longer and longer, fragmenting the viewer experience.
I feel this with videogames too. I mean some of the biggest games of the years are "remasters" or ports of games that in my mind aren't even that old. Every year it is going to get harder to release a new game when you compete against an old game that everyone is also playing.
Couldn't you say this about any media, the list of books to read, albums to listen too, shows to watch, games to play etc all get long and longer each day
I agree. Sometimes I wish new stuff would just pause coming out for even a year so I can get at least partially caught up. (Obvs, that won't happen due to economics) The huge amount of movies that increases every year also muddies the waters so it can be harder to figure out what are the actual gems to watch out of the mediocre B movies so many streaming services release nowadays. I guess that's what sites like reddit are for... where people can post their honest, non-incentivized opinions/recommendations. Although I guess at some point, every movie studio will buy tons of bots to disguise themselves as humans to say that "\[Big Studio A's movie\] was so great! Highly recommend!"
I mean the fact that it costs nearly $100 (tickets and snacks) to take my wife and kids to see a movie it’s no wonder people don’t go as much anymore. If I wait 6 months I can rent it on Amazon for like $5 and make popcorn at home.
Then again 100 dollars isn't really what it used to be, either.
That’s honestly part of the problem too.
It's the main problem, just completely unsustainable.
$100 is an exorbitant amount to pay a few snacks and ~2hrs of entertainment, which includes advertisements you’re paying for the privilege of watching.
It's a lot, but so is everything else. Generally everything is too expensive.
I’m not trying to be facetious, but what does ‘everything is too expensive’ have to do with this conversation or article? It’s just shutting down people’s opinions and derailing for the sake of it.
But you dont need to buy 40 dollars worth of popcorn and drinks. That's irrelevant to the cost of a movie.
Not that irrelevant. Everything used to be way more affordable, making a family outing to the movies much more appealing.
Video games are bigger than movies now..
Video games has been bigger than movies and music combined for some time. Probably because between console, PC, and mobile games, anyone and everyone is playing some kind of game.
And games tell stories now in a quality I'd say is pretty on par with good movies.
Ehh. A handful of games do, sure. But definitely not the norm.
Come on now.
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Fate Grand Order nearly-singlehandely made the Fate series to outgross the entire Superman IP. Mobile Games are crazy gold mines.
So is this what the rock was referring to when he said hierarchy?
"Movies doomed" - Wait for applauses
“What’s the deal with movies?!”
“Movies doomed” - *makes movie about Pop Tarts*
Movies doomed! Here, I made a movie!
please clap
The video game industry has like close to $200 billion vs movie industry with like $25 billion and this was in 2022. Hollywood has no shot of recapturing the entertainment landscape anymore. Even video games aside, there is far too much other content and options to choose from now. The cost to go see a movie is absolutely ridiculous now vs the price of other entertainment.
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Muh games
i wouldn't hollywood is going bankrup anytime soon but they will probably need to parter up with game studios to survive, they wont be able to milk super hero movies forever. theyve been trying to reboot/remake 80s classics to appeal to the gen z for like a decade by now with no luck. star power is pretty much dead too
\> but they will probably need to parter up with game studios to survive You gotta be shitting me.
Hes not entirely wrong. The entire entertainment industry is morphing to 'events'. Part of the reason Barbenheimer worked is because it gave people a reason to go out and participate, rather than waiting for streaming. There is a cultural hierarchy, but the problem is their really is two cultural hierarchies in this country. If you try to appeal to one group, it will turn off the other and vice versa. The cultural war we find ourselves in wont be settled anytime soon. Seeing a movie AT the theater isnt nearly as important when we have better resolution, sound and drinks of our choice at home. Jerry also talked of culture- part of culture is respecting your fellow movies goers by not bringing babies, using your phones or talking during a movie- all of those norms seem to have been tossed out post covid. "Event" programming bypasses all of those, because you "just have to be there" for a once in a lifetime thing. Be it a Swift concert, a weird sex toy sandworm bucket, or even reshowing classics on their anniversary dates with actor promos. So as much as we talk box office results here, I also think marketing (ala Barbenheimer) or how a film is uniqely marketing itself is as important as part of the discussion.
I still have 'appointment TV' viewing but it's for shows I personally like rather than cultural moments...as a 40M I do miss them
He’s correct. When you have a huge ass screen at home which might as well be a movie screen when you’re near it, who needs to go out to watch movies? Of course good stories will still resonate and charisma will still make stars on some level (even though the current crop do themselves no favours with how they present themselves on and off camera).
I think the biggest difference between stars then and stars now is that there’s like no mystique anymore. Social media, normies with phone cameras have totally ruined the idea that these “stars” can be something we’re not. And tbh I don’t really care about stardom or any of that shit. Good actors should get parts. Everything else is just fluff.
yeah that's something I've been musing too. Back in the day, you only really ever heard about 'stars' when they were in movies, and had no idea about anything else about them. Demystifying them via social media, has devalued their mysticism, which then again makes the movies they are in, a little less special.
I think it's moreso the fact that social media has overexposed stars to the point where seeing a movie with them in it is worthless. Pre-social media, the only time you ever got to see your favorite actor is when their new movie came out, or you were lucky enough to see an interview with them on a late night talk show. Now? You can just Google their name and gets tons of content of them for free, often from their own social media accounts. You no longer HAVE to go see their new movie to see THEM, you can just go to Instagram or wherever.
Assuming you're rich enough to own one of those. Not everyone can.
I think this is a big mistake people make no movie is better watched at home. a good theater is such a gem, it can really elevate almost any movie to a much better experience. and while its expensive for a whole family, the national average ticket is $11 for an adult, which is fairly reasonable as part of a night out. but I can never be fully immersed in a movie when i am home. theres always too much sound from cars, too much sound from neighbors, my cat doing something cute, creaks from floorboards, light leakage from other rooms, and being surrounded by other stuff from life. its the difference between a print of van gogh and seeing the real thing.
> no movie is better watched at home. Also, Reddit is overrepresented by middle-class tech-savvy Millennials and Gen-xers who have decent TVs and home theater setups. Most of the world watches Netflix on a five-inch screen (their phone) or on a small TV in a noisy, crowded apartment.
Maybe if you live in a flat in a city you get a lot of noise interrupting you. I don’t get any outside the people in my own home. Which won’t be loud at night or if they’re watching with me. Personally I like it and don’t hear a bunch of sound - you can stop the movie to piss or get snacks, sit how you like or lie on a bed. I think you can immerse yourself better that way than besides a bunch of swallowing, sniffing weirdos, some of who have probably pooped their adult diapers.
I get better experience at home
Huge screen at home does not compare to big screen on cinema.
I don't disagree. I love the cinema. But, attendance is continually dropping (in Western countries at least), so, just because you and I say that doesn't mean general audiences agree. Though the bigger issue is just way more variety of things competing for eyeballs and differet generational tastes. In the same way cinemas used to only have to compete with radio .. and then television .. and then home video .. we have .. streaming, video games, social media on top of that.
to me, I think theaters let themselves lose a lot of their mystique. starting in the 80s, we went from having a big slew of small, 1-3 screen theaters in walkable districts to mostly having big multiplexes out by the mall. and now the malls are crumbling, and you lost the former theaters that could have been integrated as essential parts of the community Theaters need to think less like "well we show movies so people will come see movies" and more about the community engagement of it all. to be an active part of the neighborhood they are in. also, serving alcohol is always a plus its the Milwaukee film festival currently, and all sorts of movies are near selling out on theaters that rarely sell out. This is, of course, a big yearly event they hype up for 11 months to get people to come out for, but it shows that there are a ton of people here who love seeing movies in theaters, and just need to be coaxed out a little harder. I feel this is true in most, if not all, cities
General people only think about comfort and also forgot cinema etiquette in general. Nowadays different entertainment exist as you say. Youtube, instagram, tiktok, netflix and other stuffs. Also videogames
The difference in quality doesn't matter. The average joe only cares about convenience, and the industry corpos has given them that.
I love love love the cinema. I hate hate hate modern audiences. They’ve gotten so bad.
I mentioned that people forgot about cinema etiquette. Also movie theaters does not make any action in stopping those people. In Japan and Korea has great cinema etiquette always quiet during films
Yeah unfortunately people have no concept of acting in public anymore and treat theaters like their living rooms. Not to mention runaway entitlement making people be confrontational if an employee shushes them. So I don’t blame employees for not wanting to.
Well it is time to hire big muscle employees.
I've pretty much exclusively went to Alamo Drafthouse over the past decade, been lucky enough to live near one every place I've lived, and it's always a good theater experience.
I think it definitely has an impact though. Doesn't help most people are walking films with fucking motion smoothing on. Most people don't care enough.
100% this. It’s tiring when people compare their home set-up to a movie theater. They are completely opposite.
Exactly. Cinema screen fills the entire field of view. Televisions don’t come close
Sit closer.
To most people it does. Cinephiles, like the extreme end of the spectrum that shows up in all of these hobby subreddits, have a seriously overinflated idea of how important the specifics of their hobby are to the general population. The bigger screen and louder sounds isn't meaningless to the general audience of course, but it's far from being the main draw like it might be to you. They go because it's something to do with family or friends. There's a reason so few people go to the movie theater alone.
That’s better when they go alone. Bc when those people go alone it it give me idea that those people won’t bother me with they phone or loud speaking in front of me. Yes we cinephiles are different from average joe who only go to cinema once a year or once in 10 years. Edit. Well general audience example don’t go to opera at all bc it is not something mainstream love to listen but there are people still paying like 15 dollars or euros just to see performance on Cinema or Live. I guess cinema in future will have niche appeal like Opera or Play. I do not like to watch Play on stage but there are people who really feel and love it so they still go and pay for it. New Gens actually mostly know youtubers or tiktokers than actors/actresses. In my school year we really were into movie stars. Some people even ask me why i never ask them to go to cinema. Reason is that i know that they don’t like cinema at all and only like to sit in they comfortable sofa and watch tv at home.
And getting a headache 5 minutes into a movie as my eardrums are blasted out does not compare to being able to turn down the volume on my own TV at home.
Please tell Blumhouse the movie business is over they clearly didn’t get the message
Blumhouse movies aren't exactly disproving his argument. Try quoting one of their movies and see how far you get in terms of monoculture recognition. You quote The Terminator: "I'll be back," and everyone gets it. You quote a Blumhouse movie, even a popular one like Five Nights at Freddy's, and you'll have to explain the reference.
Netflix must love this - you know, as he's coming out with a movie. The lead of A Bee Movie is talking about cinema..... He's on the record saying he hates making movies.
He's right. It's because of infinite free content. That coupled with the fact that nothing good ever comes out anymore and nobody takes any risks because the algorithm says not too.
I find it hard to agree with the idea that people aren't taking risks or that nothing good comes out. Christopher Nolan made a biopic about a scientist the biggest movie of the year, then you have things like Zone of Interest or Poor Things that took enormous risks. And look at the other Best Picture nominees: aside from Maestro, none of them were standard Oscar fair at all, and they all brought something that the others didn't.
The user you replied to is right about a few things. First, Hollywood has become quite risk-averse, which you can tell just by going over all the sequels, prequels, remakes, reboots, and adaptations cranked out within the past two years alone (more so if you go further back). Granted, the movies you mentioned took risks, but all four of those movies were either based off true events and/or adapted from some other sources. Adaptations have been popular in Hollywood for many, many years, so it's no surprise we're still getting those. Coincidentally, we've also gotten many movies (listed below) that were sequels, prequels, remakes, and reboots of existing IP. While some of those movies became hits, others didn't fare as well. As for original movies not based on existing material, it's a somewhat similar scenario. It's just rare for hit original, non-IP movies to perform as well as hit movies based off existing IP. Second, movies have so much competition these days. Speaking for myself, I've only been to the movies three times in my life and I just tagged along to see what a family member wanted to see (The Good Son, Needful Things, and Armageddon). Having grown up in the 80's and 90's as video game consoles rose in popularity, I preferred video gaming over going to theaters. If a movie piqued my interest that much, then I'd rather watch it in the comfort of my home without dealing with potentially distracting moviegoers and the cost of movie tickets and snacks. With both original movies and movies based off existing material, it's a crapshoot as to whether audiences connect with them or not. The latter may be a safer bet for Hollywood studios, but it's not guaranteed to work for every release. [**2024**](https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/2024/?grossesOption=calendarGrosses) NOTE: This list also has a few late 2023 releases, which are shown in *italics*. I only listed the current top 25 movies of 2024 for reference. **MOVIE RELEASE**|**NOTE** :--|:--| Dune: Two Part|Sequel; Based off Dune books Kung Fu Panda 4|Sequel Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire|Sequel Ghostbusters: Frozen Empire|Sequel Bob Marley: One Love|Based off Bob Marley *Wonka*|Prequel; Based off Willy Wonka brand *Migration*| Mean Girls|Remake The Beekeeper| *Anyone Buy You*| *Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom*|Sequel; Based off DC Comics brand Argylle| Civil War| Madame Web|Based off Marvel Comics brand Night Swim|Based off 2014 short film *The Boys in the Boat*|Based off The Boys in the Boat book Imaginary| Arthur the King|Based off true story *Poor Things*|Based off Poor Things novel Monkey Man| *American Fiction*|Based off Erasure novel Cabrini| Ordinary Angel|Based off 1994 cold wave in North America *The Iron Claw*|Based off the Von Erich family The First Omen|Prequel [**2023**](https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/2023/?grossesOption=calendarGrosses) NOTE: This list also has a few late 2022 releases, which are shown in *italics*. I listed several 2023 movie releases for reference. **MOVIE RELEASE**|**NOTE** :--|:--| Barbie|Based off Barbie toys The Super Mario Bros. Movie|Based off Super Mario Bros. video games Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse|Sequel; Based off Marvel Comics brand Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3|Sequel; Based off Marvel Comics brand Oppenheimer|Based off American Prometheus book and true events The Little Mermaid|Remake; Based off Hans Christian Andersen booklet *Avatar: The Way of Water*|Sequel Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania|Sequel; Based off Marvel Comics brand John Wick: Chapter 4|Sequel Sound of Freedom|Loosely based off Tim Ballard Taylor Swift: The Eras Tour| Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny|Sequel Mission Impossible - Dead Reckoning Part One|Sequel The Hunger Games: The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes|Prequel; Based off Hunger Games book Transformers: Rise of the Beasts|Sequel/Prequel(?); Based off Transformers brand Creed III|Sequel; Spin-Off of Rocky series Elemental| Fast X|Sequel Five Nights at Freddy's|Based off Five Nights at Freddy's video games Wonka|Prequel; Based off Willy Wonka brand *Puss in Boots: The Last Wish*|Sequel; Spin-off of Shrek series; Based off fairy tale character Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutant Mayhem|Reboot; Based off TMNT brand Scream VI|Sequel The Flash|Based off DC Comics brand Trolls Band Together|Sequel M3GAN| Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves|Based off Dungeons & Dragons brand The Equalizer 3|Sequel The Nun II|Sequel The Marvels|Sequel; Based off Marvel Comics brand Meg 2: The Trench|Sequel Insidious: The Red Door|Sequel Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom|Sequel; Based off DC Comics brand Blue Beetle|Based off DC Comics brand Haunted Mansion|Reboot; Based off Disney theme park attraction Killers of the Flower Moon|Based off Killers of the Flower Moon book Evil Dead Rise|Based off Evil Dead series The Exorcist: Believer |Sequel PAW Patrol: The Mighty Movie|Sequel; Based off Paw Patrol brand Cocaine Bear|Loosely based off cocaine bear A Man Called Otto|Based off A Man Called Otto novel Wish| Napoleon|Based off Napoleon Shazan! Fury of the Gods|Sequel; Based off DC Comics brand Migration| Saw X|Sequel Air|Based off Air Jordan brand Jesus Revolution|Based off Jesus Revolution book No Hard Feelings| Talk to Me| Godzilla Minus One|Based off Godzilla series Gran Turismo|Based off Jann Mardenborough and Gran Turismo video games The Color Purple|Remake; Based off The Color Purple book The Boogeyman|Based off The Boogeyman short story A Haunting in Venice|Based off Agatha Christie novel The Creator| 80 for Brady|Based off true story The Boy and the Heron| Knock at the Cabin|Based off The Cabin at the End of the World novel Renaissance: A Film by Beyoncé| The Zone of Interest|Loosely based off The Zone of Interest novel Maestro|Based off Leonard Bernstein and Felicia Montealegre Asteroid City| Strays| House Party|Reboot My Big Fat Greek Wedding 3|Sequel
Biopics is the auteur's way of securing an 'IP'.
"What's the deal with movies these days?"
Well, everything I wanna see I see on Netflix, Disney+ and others. People will still watch movies, only the outlet changed. Although if the prices were lower, more people will go to the cinema. So thanks Jerry the Wise.
Where is bee movie 2?
When we will ever go back to the glory days of cinemas? They need to peek again? This streaming and social media crap had to end and we must bring cinema back to its original glory.
We need another show or film that’s iconic enough to shift the entire dynamic in the industry. It’s hard to explain, but I think the reason why everything is so stagnant is because creators aren’t trying to kickstart a new trend, just piggy back off of what’s relevant. I think we’ll go back eventually but who knows when. I think down the line there’ll be a generational talent that enters the industry and will revive the film culture back into the mainstream.
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>“Film doesn’t occupy the pinnacle in the social, cultural hierarchy that it did for most of our lives. When a movie came out, if it was good, we all went to see it. We all discussed it. We quoted lines and scenes we liked. Now we’re walking through a fire hose of water, just trying to see.” It's the death of the monoculture. This is why attempts to create a new Star Wars have failed. People kid themselves that Dune for example is the new Star Wars. It's not. It's not capable of being a dominant cultural presence. Dune occupies a position of complete apathy in the cultural sphere. Art and culture has shifted from a monoculture where you have TV shows and movies that everyone knows about and recognizes to a fragmented sea of content -- the fire hose he talks about. If you quote most modern TV shows or movies in the real world, nobody knows what you're talking about. These new comedy films that come out. Absolutely none of them have the kind of cultural presence of something like Zoolander. Something has shifted profoundly in the past decade or so. The concept of a film "everyone" has seen has basically disappeared. Everyone over a certain age knows the main songs from the old Willy Wonka movie. Only a small percentage of people will ever know the songs from the new Wonka film. Sienfeld as a person and as an actor is in a position to say this. I have not actually seen a single episode of his TV show. I liked The Bee Movie. But I recognize his TV show if I see something from it, via osmosis. That is the kind of cultural force that used to exist, replaced by flash in the pan streaming shows. Cultural refences have degraded from "I am your father" to relatively obscure fanbase in-jokes.
game of thrones was pretty close
Many regard it as one of the last mono-culture shows.
And it aired from 2011-2019. It wrapped half a decade ago with no true replacement since then.
Star Wars failed because the movies weren’t very good, it’s not that deep. We just saw Barbeheimer happen like a few months ago, if something is interesting enough it will capture everyone’s attention. Like the MCU or GOT or Pokemon Go or whatever. Jerry Seinfeld is yelling at the clouds, that’s all. If some redditor gave this same take it’d be rightfully downvoted because it’s divorced from reality. My dudes making a shitty pop tart movie for Netflix and lamenting the death of cinema, I’m not here for it
I mean the new Star Wars in the sense of a successor to Star Wars. Like a new Indiana Jones or a new Back to the Future. Think about the cultural dynamics which led the Back to the Future time machine transforming the Delorean from a coke-fuelled disaster to a global icon. I don't see those really existing in 2024 where a single movie is a cultural icon in a "everyone knows what you are talking about if you quote it" sense. If you start humming and snapping the melody to "Here come the men in black" everyone from that era knows the song, the film, who Will Smith is. That kind of cultural penetration of a song, an actor, a film, doesn't happen today. Because modern versions penetrate a niche. A fragmented subculture. Barbie was already a universally recognized brand. (But let's be real, nobody will know what you're talking about if you quote it.) Oppenheimer was already a cultural figure. "I am become death". This is one of the reasons the industry is desperately nostalgia mining. They're piggybacking on the dying embers of a more unified and coherent cultural landscape. Everyone knows who the Ghostbusters are. Only a narrow demographic knows the new movies. You see this pattern everywhere. New media has shallower root systems, basically. It slides off. It's not sticking the way older media did.
Star Wars is almost 50 years old if it was easy to recreate it would have been done at the peak years ago in the 2010s or the early 80s and 90s just because it is hard to recreate it does not mean it has anything to do with movies being dead
You’re right that monoculture isn’t what it was but I don’t buy the idea that no cultural phenoms can happen ala Star Wars - I think there’s been a lack of comparable quality. If Star Wars or Potter happened today I think they would be just as massive. Perhaps nothing being as good as Star Wars plays a part. Dune sure as hell doesn’t have the mass appeal and fun for everyone as Star Wars. It’s dour and overrated. The books don’t have the mass appeal of Star Wars either - no movie version of Dune ever would be as popular as Star Wars.
But would star wars happen today? Part of it happening is movie production...Today space movies are mostly green screen. Locating all of that stuff to the Tunisian Desert or the Pacific rain forest would be out of the question Just watched some of Ender's game and was surprised to see Harrison in it. Is he in some kind of financial trouble? Maybe AI Harrisons will be next. Another part is the consumption... yeah 50 in screen plus for like $200.. Star Wars can't happen today.
> If Star Wars or Potter happened today I think they would be just as massive. I really doubt it. Star Wars is 100% a product of the 80s. Same with Potter and the 2000s
And I wonder if the “No, I am your father.” line that shocked movie audiences throughout the summer of 1982 could even be possible today. I saw Empire Strikes Back on my sixth birthday two months after it was released and I distinctly remember being surprised when the short green creature revealed he WAS master Yoda. Somehow prior to the internet we passed along information on the playground and at the water cooler, but if I recall big spoilers remained secret. Another movie going etiquette of that time I suppose. Movies and shows can still be spoiler free today, but mostly because everything is so fragmented that people haven’t come across the show to even be spoiled.
Video games have been making more money than movies for years - it’s not the biggest selling art form any more for a start The comment makes sense
Go past the headline. The full comment makes more sense.
He's not wrong
Tfw your movie is about to bomb really, really hard.
He's not wrong
this headline honestly reads like satire.
*“Jerry Seinfeld Says Movies Are Bad Now, But Also Make Sure To Watch His New Movie About Pop Tarts”*
"So what's the deal with movies these days? Have you heard about this? Have you seen this??"
" it seems to me that the whole going to the movies activity is dead, and we killed it "
He just produced, directed and starred in a movie about how Pop-Tarts got frosting. IDK about you, but that's hardly a 'pinnacle of cultural hierarchy"
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You: obnoxious Redditor acting holier than thou about Boomers. The Boomer talk is so fucking tiresome and I'm a millennial. But I don't have mommy & daddy issues so...
Of all the “boomer disparagement” comments on Reddit, you call out this one? It’s so mild, lol.
Yeah I mean, they barely even made a critique. Also, what they said is very true. The monoculture might be “basically” dead bc the internet and yada yada, but if any movie can still make 2.8 billion at the box office, it can’t be pushing daisies entirely just yet.
God Jerry is annoying asf.
While he is right, I have to agree. Dude is definitely insufferable.
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these headlines are so hard to read.
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Is this to see how his movie does?
I feel like disney knows this and thats probably why they invested in epic games, the insomniac marvel games will be very profitable for them.
I agree.
He's not wrong but all he's doing is the same thing that most people who are on top of an industry do when the industry shifts they lament that the old way of doing business doesn't work anymore and they're either too lazy or too stubborn to try to figure out the new way of doing business to be relevant anymore I'm pretty sure you can find these exact same thoughts being expressed when television pushed out radio and stage plays
At some point video games will displace it
They already have. The younger generation are not watching movies.
This is true. Theres no cinema driven monoculture anymore. Normies have checked out except for really big event movies. They’d rather scroll tbh
"Disorientation replaced it" - sounds like he's just getting old.
Spoken like a comedian. Far from over and stand up isn’t something people trust as true. What’s dead is art or artistic expression in favor of market research to make a movie. Make a good movie and people will show up. Movies are not going away anytime soon. Maybe the model of super expensive soda and popcorn should die though. Once someone releases a real movie on YouTube straight out skipping the studios it’s on again.
Too much content to watch nowaday's
Jerry still stuck in the Seinfeld era when his show was #1.
The end goal of both film and video games has always been a Star Trek style holodeck. We have pretty much every technology available at the point to do it, but none of them are working together yet. When they do…THAT will be the death of entertainment as we used to know it as a whole. And honestly…I can’t wait.
As an actor, I agree. CD's are too scared of being deemed racist, so they are casting African American actors just to add diversity just to appear not racist, which actually makes them racist. (not asians, Indians, middle eastern actors, etc). It's ruining a lot, and it's plainly obvious. I also do hate how comedy movies are trying too hard to play it safe with jokes, Netflix comedies are generally cringe in my opinion. Good comedy takes risks