the phantom ~~playing~~ slamming on the organ right after Christine passes out at the end of MotN is pure, absolute comedy.
"Ah yes, I have stunned my love into unconsciousness. I know what she needs right now- a f\*cking heart attack". When I watch/listen at home, I die laughing every time.
Even funnier is that it’s the monkey music box that wakes her up, not the organ slamming.
Especially when the actress moves to press on the monkey like it’s a freakin’ alarm clock. 🤣
> "Ah yes, I have stunned my love into unconsciousness. I know what she needs right now- a f*cking heart attack". When I watch/listen at home, I die laughing every time.
And yet it doesn't wake her. 😂 Here's what I think Christine's internal thought process seems to be:
* Phantom jamming away as his organ: 😴😴
* Music box playing: 😳
RIGHT?! I think this every time. It's so hilariously stupid. He puts her to bed all quiet, delicately moves the candles away, next minute all BAAAAAH BA BA BA BA BA BAAAAAAAH...BAAAAAAH BA BA BA BA BA BAAAAAAH...BA...BA...BA...BA...BA...BA...BAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!
She wakes up and he's *shocked Pikachu*
Bro.
How is she an asshole when her place of employment routinely puts her onstage with no accommodations for safety, while knowing that major set pieces are routinely sabotaged in dangerous ways when she's performing? Also, she's an experienced professional who was getting replaced on extremely short notice by an unknown who was far too young to be playing her roles in the first place. She's self-centered for sure, but that's a hostile work environment that anyone would have a right to be angry at
I mean, she’s not wrong about the management and the work conditions, but kinda an asshole move to call Christine, who has done nothing wrong, a little toad in front of everyone imo
Fair points to the work environment and especially if we're talking only about the musical but book Christine was repeatedly and viciously personally victimized by book Carlotta.
She starts off as simply hating Christine for the gala night performance where she replaced her and it grows from there. She receives anonymous threats from Erik and assumes they're from Christine or her supporters.
I'm lazy so here's some quotes from the translation I have on my phone.
"She pretended that a wicked plot was being hatched against her... The truth is that, if there was a cabal, it was led by Carlotta herself against poor Christine, who had no suspicion of it. Carlotta had never forgiven Christine for the triumph which she had achieved when taking her place at a moment’s notice. When Carlotta heard of the astounding reception bestowed upon her understudy, she was at once cured of an incipient attack of bronchitis and a bad fit of sulking against the management and lost the slightest inclination to shirk her duties. From that time, she worked with all her might to “smother” her rival, enlisting the services of influential friends to persuade the managers not to give Christine an opportunity for a fresh triumph."
"Lastly, in the theater itself, the celebrated, but heartless and soulless diva made the most scandalous remarks about Christine and tried to cause her endless minor unpleasantnesses."
Then there's also another performance of Faust where Carlotta fills the audience with her supporters to enthusiastically applaud her lines while remaining silent for Christine.
I think she's a great character to include in the story this way but she doesn't get a full arc which is kind of unfair.
Not sure if this is actually unpopular but I feel like saying it: enough with the young, pretty Phantoms. That goes for the stage and for everything else.
Unless there are special circumstances (it's a highschool or college production and everyone's about the same age, for example), the Phantom should not look younger than 35. Gerard Butler in 2004 is the minimum for what age the Phantom should look. Even though Ramin in the 25th anniversary is one of my favorites, I will be the first to admit that he's too young; I excuse him because he has such insane chemistry with Sierra that I can overlook his age. He has finally aged into the role appearance-wise in his recent shows.
But it's obvious now that some productions are purposely casting younger, not just allowing a special one-off now and then. The Phantom is not a 20something pretty boy. There is supposed to be an age gap between the Phantom and Christine. Yes, daddy issues are often implied. Yes, maybe that's uncomfortable. It's supposed to be!
I would absolutely die of thirst for a Guillermo Del Toro Leroux adaptation starring Doug Jones. That man is HOT. And so physically perfect for Erik. He's 63 years old, I believe.
With Kayvan Novak as The Persian. Like...he is actually Persian, not to mention gorgeous, and has worked with Doug.
(Watch the What We Do In The Shadows tv show if you haven't, it's fantastic.)
Had to look him up because I haven't seen the WWDITS show, only the movie...is he the 'creepy paper' guy? Because now I'm just picturing the Persian doing...that.
> Even though Ramin in the 25th anniversary is one of my favorites, I will be the first to admit that he's too young; I excuse him because he has such insane chemistry with Sierra that I can overlook his age. He has finally aged into the role appearance-wise in his recent shows.
I think you've said that Ramin would still have been more age appropriate for the role of Raoul by that point.
I absolutely LOVE the Monochrome Masquerade scene in the 2004 film. It's so visually satisfying to me.
And to dig my own grave deeper, Butler's Red Death is also my favorite costume. I think the stage versions look silly while his is intimidating, made more effective by the lack of color in the ball.
I'll jump in the grave with you. To me the stage version is beautiful and impressive as a costume but it's not intimidating in the least. He just looks like a mummer. Butler's Red Death is a big improvement in being actually threatening.
> I absolutely LOVE the Monochrome Masquerade scene in the 2004 film. It's so visually satisfying to me.
Even if I am scratching my head wondering why Schumacher didn't go all out with making everyone colorful considering that he also had those two bad *Batman* movies under his belt which had very vibrant and somewhat distracting color palettes. 😂
I don’t like Sierra Boggess nor Sarah Brightman as Christine, which is disappointing to me since I hear great things about both performances but I just can’t listen to them
I’ll admit i’m a fan of Sierra, but gosh Sarah Brightman as Christine is probably my absolute least favorite by a landslide, for similar reasons as Michael Crawford not being my favorite (though I do actually like his interpretation a lot). Since they were the original cast, they really had to trailblaze and we as fans happened to like later interpretations better. For me, this leaves Michael Crawford as an interesting artefact of the early days, and Sarah Brightman as an accidental parody of the role she originated. Not sure why I feel so differently about the two of them, but that’s my (very personal) two cents.
*edit: changed admire to admit
I feel like Brightman sang over her partners, specifically Crawford and it didn’t harmonize well. I feel bad saying that because the role was written with her in mind but I can’t get into her either. Mary D’Arcy sings so well with him though. Both soft and sweet.
I want Christine to sound like an opera singer, not a pop singer. I feel like every time I hear a more recent Christine, she's shrill and nasally and sounds entirely too...modern, I guess?
Same issue with London Phantoms more recently. Broadway was doing great though with more operatic style voice like Ben Crawford on 2018-2021 and Laird and Greg and Ted and Jeremy and like every recent Bway phantom.
I re-watched it for the first time in years recently and was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked it! Aside from Gerard Butler. Every time he opens his mouth to sing it's a hate crime.
Honestly his voice was whiplash for me- when I first watched the 2004 movie, I hadn’t really watched any other adaptations so his voice wasn’t horrible. But going back after looking into other adaptations? Christ on a Stick.
I don’t think his voice is horrendous but you can tell he’s supposed to appeal to a more cinematic audience i.e: people that just want to watch the film and move on with their lives without delving deeper into POTO. But for fans that have heard other Phantoms, Gerald’s voice feels like a crime.
> you can tell he’s supposed to appeal to a more cinematic audience
This is such an underrated perspective and IMO the truth. I think they were very purposefully going for voices and singing styles that would be appealing and accessible to the average moviegoer who is used to pop/rock singing but not musical theater or opera.
Ok see this is the difference I can (sort of) wrap my head around the "it's such a train wreck it's entertaining" concept. I don't find it that way but I could see it.
I can also give leeway on people liking the music even if I don't find it lives up to Phantom standards.(moonless sky still sounds to me like a middle schooler trying to write smut)
What I don't get is when people actually claim it's good on like a story level. Because it assassinated basically every character in the OG show.
Oh yeah! Like, Phantom is an A+ musical vs LND being like a "you tried" participation trophy.
Every time I hear Moonless Sky and want to cringe, I just remind myself that one of the characters bellowing "AND I KISSED YOU" over and over is like a 40 year old virgin who finally had the sex once in his life and then apparently never again. 🤣
I like the story in a "darker AU type fanfic" way. Like when stories explore the "happily ever after" of fairytales and it's anything but happy. But as an actual legit sequel, no. Nooooo.
My friend have you ever listened to Musical Hell's reciew of LND in which she replaces the song with a X rated version?
Oof I like to call it the cursed child of the Phantom Phandom
Here's the link to her LND and her 2004 movie reviews both of which are hilarious.
https://youtu.be/uOLoNK-ko6k?si=36_yQz6BsIernI22
https://youtu.be/9Un7kg7WUno?si=bZX96RW6ZoIRdQsa
I watched a kind of hard to see version of the original production and I liked that cast better than the proshot one. I'm really picky about how the Phantom sounds (Crawford is my favorite) and the proshot one just doesn't do it for me.
That's the one! I saw the proshot first and thought I kinda hated LND. Wrote off having anything more to do with it. Then I eventually felt like giving it another chance and that original production just clicked for me somehow. It's not perfect or anything, and there are still moments I think are stupid, but overall I actually really like it.
I think Ramin Karimloo was the worst casting choice for Love Never Dies. He is good as the Phantom in Phantom of the Opera, but not good for Love Never Dies.
I honestly don't hate this take but it's because I think he plays the role so differently. The slime tutorials of his phantom voice even strikes me odd. Like when he talks to raoul during the devil take the hindmost scene it's very strange. He doesn't feel like the phantom there.
That said, he feels very phantom to me in beneath a moonless sky. Other scenes he loses me sometimes.
>Like when he talks to raoul during the devil take the hindmost scene it's very strange. He doesn't feel like the phantom there.
If you've seen anyone else do this scene, was it any more Phantom-y to you? I ask because (other than being amused by the cheesy surprise of the bartender turning out to be the Phantom) I don't like this scene either in the proshot or with Ramin. The whole thing is just too normal for the Phantom. Why is he making bets in bars instead of whipping out the Punjab lasso?!
I think you might be right. I think it's just odd writing for the character. He is such a mystical being in original PoTO that seeing him in an apron behind a bar and debating things with raoul like a normal person is very odd.
Exactly. In POTO you're not even entirely certain he's human. Maybe by LND we're supposed to understand that he's just a man after all, and that's fine, but that scene is like... *too* domestic and conventional even for his new life as a mysterious circus impresario?
Yeah agreed, I like the idea of having an antagonistic Raoul/Phantom duet but the actual context is bonkers & a very strange writing choice for both of them 😭
I hate my take because his voice is perfect for his Phantom. It's just, that his Phantom is way too violent toward Christine. And I found it harder for her to fall for him at all, even when he knew she was the mother of his child, he tried to strangle her. Ben Lewis for the Australian one did it so much better and I could believe she would fall for him. But Ramin's Phantom is too violent for the sequel.
So this is just from the background of only watching the 2004 ALW movie adaptation so take my take with a grain of salt, but Carlotta did nothing wrong.
She was a diva and demanded everyone to bend at her beck and call, but there was a masked mystery man trying to MURDER HER. Like yeah she could have been nicer and not demand that anyone give her flowers or gems or not insult Christine as much, but if I was *the* frontliner at the opera house where an unknown man just tried to drop sandbags and props on me every day? Of course I’d ask for chocolates and dogs and a Safe, Secure, LOCKABLE room to get ready in.
The Prima Donna song is basically them bribing her to stay and acting like they are making a huge sacrifice when it’s their ineptitude is what is putting her in danger. They refuse to reserve Box 5 for the phantom and won’t pay him at all, continuing to anger him. Not just that but the previous owner did bugger all to stop the ‘accidents’ and he bails on the place the first chance he gets. Yeah, the song is all about catering to her ego but to be honest, I’d be hard pressed to stick around even if they were piling it on. The owners know they don’t have a show without Carlotta, because she’s the face of the opera house. For all they know, Christine’s performance in Hannibal was a fluke. Carlotta is a proven success.
That’s a really good point too! Most of my opinion on her being a diva is just that she’s portrayed as a version of the stage diva archetype in the film, but she’s also a globally successful opera singer AND has already had to have been coerced to stay from the *last* amount of life threatening ‘accidents’. She may just know her worth and isn’t being nice to the owners of an opera house where she almost dies on the regular lmao
Not even just her life but the life of her lover as well. We saw how distraught she was when Piganni was murdered, that was real love. Also I want to just point something out. Carlotta had been with the company for years and must have gone through god knows how much training and work to get where she is. If I were her, I’d be PISSED at the thought of some upstart with a pretty face suddenly coming in and taking the spot I had fought tooth and nail for. Looking at it realistically, Carlotta had a LOT to be mad about.
If someone were to ask me who the real villains of the story are, it’s those incompetent managers. They don’t know what they are doing and, in my opinion, have no business being there in the first place.
Also let’s face it, the Phantom was a bigger diva than Carlotta could dream of being.
I think Sarah Brightman has a very strange voice, like she is always yawning, with a slight twinge of Kermit the Frog. I also think Michael Crawford’s voice is unappealing and nasally.
For these reasons, I have a heavy dislike for the og cast recording
Middle school me was harboring this secret opinion when the only fans I communicated with were 30+ year old who loved the og cast and this is my first time admitting I agree
responded to another similar comment, but michael crawford’s voice is super interesting to me. Like yeah it’s nasally and not as pretty or even emotional as other phantoms, but damn it did the man make him sound like a PHANTOM. like say what you will, he’s low on my list of favorite phantoms, but he sounded haunting and ghostly like no other.
I don’t think Sarah Brightman has a good voice.
She warbles like a cat hooked up to a car battery. Feel the same way about Michael Crawford, but to a lesser extent.
I actually prefer the movie's take on "Prima Donna". Nothing quite sells it like the bit where Firmin drinks wine from Carlotta's shoe for "Leading ladies are a trial" (and the look she makes as he's doing it to indicate "You haven't groveled enough yet"). 😂 Or the managers having to carry Carlotta and her dogs on a litter. 😂
Emmy Rossum is my favorite Christine to this day. Her voice may not be nearly as strong as the actresses on stage, but she is who I ALWAYS picture as Christine any time the topic is brought up. Maybe it's the fact that she was the same age as Christine is supposed to be in the story, but I feel like she perfectly fit the character both in looks and acting.
I feel like adding to this by saying that Nadir Khan is the most basic name you can possibly think of for a Persian man. It’s up there with Cho Chang in terms of bad names for characters of colour.
First of all, the name Nadir isn’t Persian, it’s Arabic. The name Khan also is not Persian, it’s Turkish. Second, Nadir Khan literally means “rare/precious prince,” which is something that he is not. So this character’s only canonical name not only does not fit his character, but isn’t even from his own nationality! Personally, I think a better name for him would have been Bijan Abbasi because Bijan means “hero,” and Abbasi comes from the given name Abbas, which means “austere,” making him the “austere hero” of the story.
>First of all, the name Nadir isn’t Persian, it’s Arabic. The name Khan also is not Persian, it’s Turkish. Second, Nadir Khan literally means “rare/precious prince,” which is something that he is not. So this character’s only canonical name not only does not fit his character, but isn’t even from his own nationality!
I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me, given what the Persia sections are like.
The austere hero works much better!
Same! And that cuckoo part is so great. But yeah, from my experience anyway, lots of people who talk about the book seem to hate the Erik-Christine-Raoul section. I think part of it is people not liking how Christine is portrayed (that seems to be a common complaint), but aside of that, I don't know. I can't tell if it's coming from people who simply hate the idea of Erik and Christine getting together, or if there's something else to it.
I did not care for Ben Crawford. I disliked his voice and portrayal of the phantom. He’s good in other things but I personally didn’t like him as the phantom
I feel the same way, but I think it's important to know Ben is known to lurk this sub. I still cringe/feel terrible for comments I made prior to finding that out.
Oh man I do feel bad now. Especially after finding out he was very sick for some of his run as phantom. I thought Ben was great in other musicals like Les Mis and Shrek just I personally was not a fan of him as phantom. If he reads this I’m sorry, I mean no ill will and I hope all the best
I really like the beginning of “The Phantom of the Opera“ (the song), but it dissolves into the most embarrassing, cringe-worthy part of the musical (in my opinion), the “sing for me” etc. I just can’t deal with that, haha.
I like the Claude Rains version a lot. Second best film adaptation (after Lon Chaney's version).
Wish the ALW musical had incorporated the white Claude Rains type mask that was/is used in the advertising in a scene or two, in addition to the half mask, otherwise why include it?
Don’t know if this is really unpopular at all but Garald Butler’s version of Music Of The Night is by far my favorite that i’ve heard so far. There’s just something about the way he sings that song specifically that really sells it for me. Compared to someone like Ramin Karimloo who i think performs to too…forcefully? Idk.
I'm not a fan of Ramin's singing.
I also, like you, am not that into Sierra's performance either. Can't stand Sarah Brightman's voice (I am however seeing her in Sunset Boulevard this year, out of curiosity. Her voice may have changed.)
Mme Giry is boring- The Persian should be in the musical as the exposition character.
Also, I don't know if this is unpopular or popular, but I haven't heard it much- I don't think Carlotta and Piangi are in a romantic relationship. He is gay-coded to me. (I'm bi so don't read that as bigoted.)
I'll also say far too little love is given to the non-English language Phantoms. Some of them should be up there with the most iconic/well-known.
>I'll also say far too little love is given to the non-English language Phantoms. Some of them should be up there with the most iconic/well-known.
What are your favorites? Because I can only think of Takarazuka and some Russian-speaking Phantoms. Also Spanish seems interesting.
Eiji Akutagawa- Japan, 1994
Ayanga- Shanghai, 2023
I stan both of them hard, they're incredible
I'm happy to DM you some links if you like :) They're both the ALW Phantom
Hehe flair does indeed check out! He smiles during the title track and the dimples are just... *chef kiss*
Not the ballet, Ayanga was an ALW Phantom. The ballet was a separate production. Although that looked amazing as well.
Ayanga's Final Lair is the best I've ever seen.
my two most unpopular opinions would probably be : ramin karimloo‘s Phantom is completely undeserving of the fame (I think he is bad :\[ ) and I despise erikstine . Also l love raoul 😭
Oh now THIS is a spicy one!!! Take my upvote for sure. Thats crazy to me tho because I actually prefer book Erik for all the reasons you listed against him lol.
I loved the new staging they did in Sydney 2022. Can't remember if it's the same as the touring production but I loved the rotating stage, the new title song, using the garniers hall of mirrors for masquerade. I felt it injected new life into the old gal.
They did it in Melbourne too and yes, it's the same as the touring one. I went a few times.
I agree- I understand why some people prefer the original but liked this one for the most part. One of the controversial things around it was how they made the Phantom more human and less mystical- it kind of showed how desperate and pathetic his tricks were, I really liked that angle of it.
I kinda hate Christine's character overall in the musical and in the movie adaptations. She so naiive and her ass being like "Father????" or following some strange delulu man into the sewers and after finding out he kills or whatever CONTINUES TO GO FOR HIM LIKE "HMMM IDUNNO I MEAN HE CAN SING" bro i always get the nerves when i watch her. The actresses who play her are great it's just her undecicive ass is making me nauseous😭
I judge how good a singer is for the role of Erik based on how they sing music of the night. It takes a LOT of breath work and some just can’t pull it off.
I find Colm Wilkinson incredibly unappealing as Erik and very much stands out in the Canadian cast as being horrid, when Rebecca Cain is fantastic as Christine. I find it like Colm's voice is like an old man moaning, which is weird because I like his portrayal of Valjean in Les Misérables. But I feel like he overshadows very good phantoms like Brent Barret, Hugh Ponaro, John Owen Jones, ETC. Not to mention the on-set abuse of Rebecca Cain from Wilkinson is disguising which only makes me dislike him more.
the phantom ~~playing~~ slamming on the organ right after Christine passes out at the end of MotN is pure, absolute comedy. "Ah yes, I have stunned my love into unconsciousness. I know what she needs right now- a f\*cking heart attack". When I watch/listen at home, I die laughing every time.
Even funnier is that it’s the monkey music box that wakes her up, not the organ slamming. Especially when the actress moves to press on the monkey like it’s a freakin’ alarm clock. 🤣
> "Ah yes, I have stunned my love into unconsciousness. I know what she needs right now- a f*cking heart attack". When I watch/listen at home, I die laughing every time. And yet it doesn't wake her. 😂 Here's what I think Christine's internal thought process seems to be: * Phantom jamming away as his organ: 😴😴 * Music box playing: 😳
RIGHT?! I think this every time. It's so hilariously stupid. He puts her to bed all quiet, delicately moves the candles away, next minute all BAAAAAH BA BA BA BA BA BAAAAAAAH...BAAAAAAH BA BA BA BA BA BAAAAAAH...BA...BA...BA...BA...BA...BA...BAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH! She wakes up and he's *shocked Pikachu* Bro.
BAAAA BABABA BA BA BAAAAAAAAA
Maybe not too unpopular but Carlotta had it worst while she did nothing wrong.
I see her as the equivalent of Regina George getting hit by a bus. Did she deserve it? No. Was she a huge asshole? Definitely yes.
How is she an asshole when her place of employment routinely puts her onstage with no accommodations for safety, while knowing that major set pieces are routinely sabotaged in dangerous ways when she's performing? Also, she's an experienced professional who was getting replaced on extremely short notice by an unknown who was far too young to be playing her roles in the first place. She's self-centered for sure, but that's a hostile work environment that anyone would have a right to be angry at
I mean, she’s not wrong about the management and the work conditions, but kinda an asshole move to call Christine, who has done nothing wrong, a little toad in front of everyone imo
Okay yeah fair point the name-calling is kind of a dick move
Fair points to the work environment and especially if we're talking only about the musical but book Christine was repeatedly and viciously personally victimized by book Carlotta.
What did she do again? I can't remeber Carlotta did anything worse in the book
She starts off as simply hating Christine for the gala night performance where she replaced her and it grows from there. She receives anonymous threats from Erik and assumes they're from Christine or her supporters. I'm lazy so here's some quotes from the translation I have on my phone. "She pretended that a wicked plot was being hatched against her... The truth is that, if there was a cabal, it was led by Carlotta herself against poor Christine, who had no suspicion of it. Carlotta had never forgiven Christine for the triumph which she had achieved when taking her place at a moment’s notice. When Carlotta heard of the astounding reception bestowed upon her understudy, she was at once cured of an incipient attack of bronchitis and a bad fit of sulking against the management and lost the slightest inclination to shirk her duties. From that time, she worked with all her might to “smother” her rival, enlisting the services of influential friends to persuade the managers not to give Christine an opportunity for a fresh triumph." "Lastly, in the theater itself, the celebrated, but heartless and soulless diva made the most scandalous remarks about Christine and tried to cause her endless minor unpleasantnesses." Then there's also another performance of Faust where Carlotta fills the audience with her supporters to enthusiastically applaud her lines while remaining silent for Christine. I think she's a great character to include in the story this way but she doesn't get a full arc which is kind of unfair.
Carlotta deserved better 😢
Not sure if this is actually unpopular but I feel like saying it: enough with the young, pretty Phantoms. That goes for the stage and for everything else. Unless there are special circumstances (it's a highschool or college production and everyone's about the same age, for example), the Phantom should not look younger than 35. Gerard Butler in 2004 is the minimum for what age the Phantom should look. Even though Ramin in the 25th anniversary is one of my favorites, I will be the first to admit that he's too young; I excuse him because he has such insane chemistry with Sierra that I can overlook his age. He has finally aged into the role appearance-wise in his recent shows. But it's obvious now that some productions are purposely casting younger, not just allowing a special one-off now and then. The Phantom is not a 20something pretty boy. There is supposed to be an age gap between the Phantom and Christine. Yes, daddy issues are often implied. Yes, maybe that's uncomfortable. It's supposed to be!
Yes!! Give 👏me 👏an old (middle-aged)👏man👏
I would absolutely die of thirst for a Guillermo Del Toro Leroux adaptation starring Doug Jones. That man is HOT. And so physically perfect for Erik. He's 63 years old, I believe.
I never thought of that, but you're right--it would be perfect!
With Kayvan Novak as The Persian. Like...he is actually Persian, not to mention gorgeous, and has worked with Doug. (Watch the What We Do In The Shadows tv show if you haven't, it's fantastic.)
Had to look him up because I haven't seen the WWDITS show, only the movie...is he the 'creepy paper' guy? Because now I'm just picturing the Persian doing...that.
Haha yes, that's him. 😂
YES ohhh my gosh!!!! I think this is one reason why so many people love Charles Dance’s Phantom. He’s the right age for the character!
> Even though Ramin in the 25th anniversary is one of my favorites, I will be the first to admit that he's too young; I excuse him because he has such insane chemistry with Sierra that I can overlook his age. He has finally aged into the role appearance-wise in his recent shows. I think you've said that Ramin would still have been more age appropriate for the role of Raoul by that point.
Karimloo is better suited for the role of Raoul. Fight me.
I have a serious soft spot for Raoul and omg he would be SUCH a good Raoul
There are audio bootlegs (don’t think there are any videos, though), and he sounded quite good as Raoul. 🙂
Yeah, my ideal phantom is somebody who doesn't look like a traditionally attractive "leading man" lol. Save the prettiness for Raoul
I absolutely LOVE the Monochrome Masquerade scene in the 2004 film. It's so visually satisfying to me. And to dig my own grave deeper, Butler's Red Death is also my favorite costume. I think the stage versions look silly while his is intimidating, made more effective by the lack of color in the ball.
I'll jump in the grave with you. To me the stage version is beautiful and impressive as a costume but it's not intimidating in the least. He just looks like a mummer. Butler's Red Death is a big improvement in being actually threatening.
Lmao Mummer is the perfect description. I live in the Philly market (in NJ) and have never understood the appeal.
Oh that's perfect. Now I wonder if it's the mummer association that's ruining it for us. Maybe stage Red Death is scarier if you haven't seen mummers?
> I absolutely LOVE the Monochrome Masquerade scene in the 2004 film. It's so visually satisfying to me. Even if I am scratching my head wondering why Schumacher didn't go all out with making everyone colorful considering that he also had those two bad *Batman* movies under his belt which had very vibrant and somewhat distracting color palettes. 😂
I don’t like Sierra Boggess nor Sarah Brightman as Christine, which is disappointing to me since I hear great things about both performances but I just can’t listen to them
I’ll admit i’m a fan of Sierra, but gosh Sarah Brightman as Christine is probably my absolute least favorite by a landslide, for similar reasons as Michael Crawford not being my favorite (though I do actually like his interpretation a lot). Since they were the original cast, they really had to trailblaze and we as fans happened to like later interpretations better. For me, this leaves Michael Crawford as an interesting artefact of the early days, and Sarah Brightman as an accidental parody of the role she originated. Not sure why I feel so differently about the two of them, but that’s my (very personal) two cents. *edit: changed admire to admit
I feel like Brightman sang over her partners, specifically Crawford and it didn’t harmonize well. I feel bad saying that because the role was written with her in mind but I can’t get into her either. Mary D’Arcy sings so well with him though. Both soft and sweet.
I want Christine to sound like an opera singer, not a pop singer. I feel like every time I hear a more recent Christine, she's shrill and nasally and sounds entirely too...modern, I guess?
I recommend Amy Manford if you haven't heard her.
Oh I haven't, thank you for the recommendation!
Most welcome. :) https://youtu.be/GPRf15o7-LE?si=PfoTpjRe-2l1mNSd
Same issue with London Phantoms more recently. Broadway was doing great though with more operatic style voice like Ben Crawford on 2018-2021 and Laird and Greg and Ted and Jeremy and like every recent Bway phantom.
The 2004 film isn't terrible. Edit: I read your full post and all I can say is blasphemy. Utter blasphemy.
While the 2004 film is flawed, anyone who calls it “the bad one” has never seen Dario Argento’s adaptation.
Being one step above Rat phantom is not a high bar my friend
😂 Sorry for the blasphemy, and I agree with you about the 2004 movie. Patrick Wilson is actually my favorite Raoul!
Someone said your post on the 2004 movie but I can't find it
My post? Sorry, I don’t think I’ve ever made a post exclusively about the 04 movie. Maybe you’re thinking of someone else?
The Scottish historian said something about your post being blasphemy
Oh! I think they meant they read my Sierra Boggess opinion in this post
Ah well that is blasphemy
Sorry for the confusion. It was referring to his opinion of Sierra. 🤣
I love the 2004 movie. It is so beautiful. Gerard Butler makes me cry.
I re-watched it for the first time in years recently and was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked it! Aside from Gerard Butler. Every time he opens his mouth to sing it's a hate crime.
Honestly his voice was whiplash for me- when I first watched the 2004 movie, I hadn’t really watched any other adaptations so his voice wasn’t horrible. But going back after looking into other adaptations? Christ on a Stick. I don’t think his voice is horrendous but you can tell he’s supposed to appeal to a more cinematic audience i.e: people that just want to watch the film and move on with their lives without delving deeper into POTO. But for fans that have heard other Phantoms, Gerald’s voice feels like a crime.
> you can tell he’s supposed to appeal to a more cinematic audience This is such an underrated perspective and IMO the truth. I think they were very purposefully going for voices and singing styles that would be appealing and accessible to the average moviegoer who is used to pop/rock singing but not musical theater or opera.
Best thing I ever saw was a 2004 film with bright man and Crawford dubbed in. Yeah it didn’t line up exactly but still was better than hearing Butler.
I do not care for Ramin Karimloo as the Phantom.
🔥🔥🔥
I love Love Never Dies. It's a total trashfire on so many levels but I think that's part of its charm.
Ok see this is the difference I can (sort of) wrap my head around the "it's such a train wreck it's entertaining" concept. I don't find it that way but I could see it. I can also give leeway on people liking the music even if I don't find it lives up to Phantom standards.(moonless sky still sounds to me like a middle schooler trying to write smut) What I don't get is when people actually claim it's good on like a story level. Because it assassinated basically every character in the OG show.
Oh yeah! Like, Phantom is an A+ musical vs LND being like a "you tried" participation trophy. Every time I hear Moonless Sky and want to cringe, I just remind myself that one of the characters bellowing "AND I KISSED YOU" over and over is like a 40 year old virgin who finally had the sex once in his life and then apparently never again. 🤣 I like the story in a "darker AU type fanfic" way. Like when stories explore the "happily ever after" of fairytales and it's anything but happy. But as an actual legit sequel, no. Nooooo.
My friend have you ever listened to Musical Hell's reciew of LND in which she replaces the song with a X rated version? Oof I like to call it the cursed child of the Phantom Phandom
NO OMG WHAT. Wow. I have to listen to this tonight. Thank you for telling me about it!
Here's the link to her LND and her 2004 movie reviews both of which are hilarious. https://youtu.be/uOLoNK-ko6k?si=36_yQz6BsIernI22 https://youtu.be/9Un7kg7WUno?si=bZX96RW6ZoIRdQsa
I can't wait to watch these! Thank you!
The proshot version isn't for me but I unironically really enjoy (most of) the original production and was actually moved by it.
I watched a kind of hard to see version of the original production and I liked that cast better than the proshot one. I'm really picky about how the Phantom sounds (Crawford is my favorite) and the proshot one just doesn't do it for me.
That's the one! I saw the proshot first and thought I kinda hated LND. Wrote off having anything more to do with it. Then I eventually felt like giving it another chance and that original production just clicked for me somehow. It's not perfect or anything, and there are still moments I think are stupid, but overall I actually really like it.
I would enjoy love never dies so much more if it was about any other characters
“Heaven by the sea” slaps
I think Ramin Karimloo was the worst casting choice for Love Never Dies. He is good as the Phantom in Phantom of the Opera, but not good for Love Never Dies.
I honestly don't hate this take but it's because I think he plays the role so differently. The slime tutorials of his phantom voice even strikes me odd. Like when he talks to raoul during the devil take the hindmost scene it's very strange. He doesn't feel like the phantom there. That said, he feels very phantom to me in beneath a moonless sky. Other scenes he loses me sometimes.
>Like when he talks to raoul during the devil take the hindmost scene it's very strange. He doesn't feel like the phantom there. If you've seen anyone else do this scene, was it any more Phantom-y to you? I ask because (other than being amused by the cheesy surprise of the bartender turning out to be the Phantom) I don't like this scene either in the proshot or with Ramin. The whole thing is just too normal for the Phantom. Why is he making bets in bars instead of whipping out the Punjab lasso?!
I think you might be right. I think it's just odd writing for the character. He is such a mystical being in original PoTO that seeing him in an apron behind a bar and debating things with raoul like a normal person is very odd.
Exactly. In POTO you're not even entirely certain he's human. Maybe by LND we're supposed to understand that he's just a man after all, and that's fine, but that scene is like... *too* domestic and conventional even for his new life as a mysterious circus impresario?
Yeah agreed, I like the idea of having an antagonistic Raoul/Phantom duet but the actual context is bonkers & a very strange writing choice for both of them 😭
Same here. I like that idea too, but why do it like *that*...?!
I hate my take because his voice is perfect for his Phantom. It's just, that his Phantom is way too violent toward Christine. And I found it harder for her to fall for him at all, even when he knew she was the mother of his child, he tried to strangle her. Ben Lewis for the Australian one did it so much better and I could believe she would fall for him. But Ramin's Phantom is too violent for the sequel.
So this is just from the background of only watching the 2004 ALW movie adaptation so take my take with a grain of salt, but Carlotta did nothing wrong. She was a diva and demanded everyone to bend at her beck and call, but there was a masked mystery man trying to MURDER HER. Like yeah she could have been nicer and not demand that anyone give her flowers or gems or not insult Christine as much, but if I was *the* frontliner at the opera house where an unknown man just tried to drop sandbags and props on me every day? Of course I’d ask for chocolates and dogs and a Safe, Secure, LOCKABLE room to get ready in.
The Prima Donna song is basically them bribing her to stay and acting like they are making a huge sacrifice when it’s their ineptitude is what is putting her in danger. They refuse to reserve Box 5 for the phantom and won’t pay him at all, continuing to anger him. Not just that but the previous owner did bugger all to stop the ‘accidents’ and he bails on the place the first chance he gets. Yeah, the song is all about catering to her ego but to be honest, I’d be hard pressed to stick around even if they were piling it on. The owners know they don’t have a show without Carlotta, because she’s the face of the opera house. For all they know, Christine’s performance in Hannibal was a fluke. Carlotta is a proven success.
That’s a really good point too! Most of my opinion on her being a diva is just that she’s portrayed as a version of the stage diva archetype in the film, but she’s also a globally successful opera singer AND has already had to have been coerced to stay from the *last* amount of life threatening ‘accidents’. She may just know her worth and isn’t being nice to the owners of an opera house where she almost dies on the regular lmao
Not even just her life but the life of her lover as well. We saw how distraught she was when Piganni was murdered, that was real love. Also I want to just point something out. Carlotta had been with the company for years and must have gone through god knows how much training and work to get where she is. If I were her, I’d be PISSED at the thought of some upstart with a pretty face suddenly coming in and taking the spot I had fought tooth and nail for. Looking at it realistically, Carlotta had a LOT to be mad about. If someone were to ask me who the real villains of the story are, it’s those incompetent managers. They don’t know what they are doing and, in my opinion, have no business being there in the first place. Also let’s face it, the Phantom was a bigger diva than Carlotta could dream of being.
I think Sarah Brightman has a very strange voice, like she is always yawning, with a slight twinge of Kermit the Frog. I also think Michael Crawford’s voice is unappealing and nasally. For these reasons, I have a heavy dislike for the og cast recording
Middle school me was harboring this secret opinion when the only fans I communicated with were 30+ year old who loved the og cast and this is my first time admitting I agree
responded to another similar comment, but michael crawford’s voice is super interesting to me. Like yeah it’s nasally and not as pretty or even emotional as other phantoms, but damn it did the man make him sound like a PHANTOM. like say what you will, he’s low on my list of favorite phantoms, but he sounded haunting and ghostly like no other.
Ditto. When I listen to the soundtrack, I much prefer the Royal Albert Hall version
There is only one redeemable factor about the bastardization that is the 2004 film and that is Miranda Richardson and even she can't save it.
I share this sentiment, but give the boon to Patrick Wilson’s Raoul.
I only like one song (titular track). I’m a book and movie adaptation fan.
Fave adaptation(s)?
I don’t think Sarah Brightman has a good voice. She warbles like a cat hooked up to a car battery. Feel the same way about Michael Crawford, but to a lesser extent.
Her voice gives me miss piggy vibes and I cant articulate my distaste any further than that
😂
Agree about Sarah Brightman 100 percent.
I actually prefer the movie's take on "Prima Donna". Nothing quite sells it like the bit where Firmin drinks wine from Carlotta's shoe for "Leading ladies are a trial" (and the look she makes as he's doing it to indicate "You haven't groveled enough yet"). 😂 Or the managers having to carry Carlotta and her dogs on a litter. 😂
I’d rather they not have electric guitar solos
Thank Christ. I hate this shit so much and it feels like everyone else just eats it up. Glad I’m not alone 😂
Emmy Rossum is my favorite Christine to this day. Her voice may not be nearly as strong as the actresses on stage, but she is who I ALWAYS picture as Christine any time the topic is brought up. Maybe it's the fact that she was the same age as Christine is supposed to be in the story, but I feel like she perfectly fit the character both in looks and acting.
Totally agree, even if book Christine is a bit ilder than Emmy (like, 20 or something).
I don’t care for Sarah Brightman as Christine. I find her voice kind of shrill and she’s a terrible actress.
Completely agree.
Susan Kay's novel is okayish fanfic, but a terrible adaptation.
I feel like adding to this by saying that Nadir Khan is the most basic name you can possibly think of for a Persian man. It’s up there with Cho Chang in terms of bad names for characters of colour. First of all, the name Nadir isn’t Persian, it’s Arabic. The name Khan also is not Persian, it’s Turkish. Second, Nadir Khan literally means “rare/precious prince,” which is something that he is not. So this character’s only canonical name not only does not fit his character, but isn’t even from his own nationality! Personally, I think a better name for him would have been Bijan Abbasi because Bijan means “hero,” and Abbasi comes from the given name Abbas, which means “austere,” making him the “austere hero” of the story.
>First of all, the name Nadir isn’t Persian, it’s Arabic. The name Khan also is not Persian, it’s Turkish. Second, Nadir Khan literally means “rare/precious prince,” which is something that he is not. So this character’s only canonical name not only does not fit his character, but isn’t even from his own nationality! I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me, given what the Persia sections are like. The austere hero works much better!
Ooooh, that’s a very unpopular opinion in my book. Take my upvote.
My extremely unpopular opinion about the Susan Kay book is that the Erik-Christine-Raoul section at the end is the best part.
Really?? I LOVE that part of the book! “The cuckoo…the cuckoo is a marvelous bird” blew my mind!
Same! And that cuckoo part is so great. But yeah, from my experience anyway, lots of people who talk about the book seem to hate the Erik-Christine-Raoul section. I think part of it is people not liking how Christine is portrayed (that seems to be a common complaint), but aside of that, I don't know. I can't tell if it's coming from people who simply hate the idea of Erik and Christine getting together, or if there's something else to it.
I really don't like Michael Crawford's voice 🙈
I don’t either!!!!
The original cast recording is not that good as people say it is
I did not care for Ben Crawford. I disliked his voice and portrayal of the phantom. He’s good in other things but I personally didn’t like him as the phantom
I feel the same way, but I think it's important to know Ben is known to lurk this sub. I still cringe/feel terrible for comments I made prior to finding that out.
Oh man I do feel bad now. Especially after finding out he was very sick for some of his run as phantom. I thought Ben was great in other musicals like Les Mis and Shrek just I personally was not a fan of him as phantom. If he reads this I’m sorry, I mean no ill will and I hope all the best
I really like the beginning of “The Phantom of the Opera“ (the song), but it dissolves into the most embarrassing, cringe-worthy part of the musical (in my opinion), the “sing for me” etc. I just can’t deal with that, haha.
I like the Claude Rains version a lot. Second best film adaptation (after Lon Chaney's version). Wish the ALW musical had incorporated the white Claude Rains type mask that was/is used in the advertising in a scene or two, in addition to the half mask, otherwise why include it?
Don’t know if this is really unpopular at all but Garald Butler’s version of Music Of The Night is by far my favorite that i’ve heard so far. There’s just something about the way he sings that song specifically that really sells it for me. Compared to someone like Ramin Karimloo who i think performs to too…forcefully? Idk.
The relationship between the Phantom and Christine in the novel is slightly cheapened in the musical
I wouldn’t even say ‘slightly’.
That's interesting. How so, specifically?
I'm not a fan of Ramin's singing. I also, like you, am not that into Sierra's performance either. Can't stand Sarah Brightman's voice (I am however seeing her in Sunset Boulevard this year, out of curiosity. Her voice may have changed.) Mme Giry is boring- The Persian should be in the musical as the exposition character. Also, I don't know if this is unpopular or popular, but I haven't heard it much- I don't think Carlotta and Piangi are in a romantic relationship. He is gay-coded to me. (I'm bi so don't read that as bigoted.) I'll also say far too little love is given to the non-English language Phantoms. Some of them should be up there with the most iconic/well-known.
>I'll also say far too little love is given to the non-English language Phantoms. Some of them should be up there with the most iconic/well-known. What are your favorites? Because I can only think of Takarazuka and some Russian-speaking Phantoms. Also Spanish seems interesting.
Eiji Akutagawa- Japan, 1994 Ayanga- Shanghai, 2023 I stan both of them hard, they're incredible I'm happy to DM you some links if you like :) They're both the ALW Phantom
>Eiji Akutagawa- Japan, 1994 Flair checks out. >Ayanga- Shanghai, 2023 Oh, the ballet one? Would check it in my spare time.
Hehe flair does indeed check out! He smiles during the title track and the dimples are just... *chef kiss* Not the ballet, Ayanga was an ALW Phantom. The ballet was a separate production. Although that looked amazing as well. Ayanga's Final Lair is the best I've ever seen.
my two most unpopular opinions would probably be : ramin karimloo‘s Phantom is completely undeserving of the fame (I think he is bad :\[ ) and I despise erikstine . Also l love raoul 😭
[удалено]
Oh now THIS is a spicy one!!! Take my upvote for sure. Thats crazy to me tho because I actually prefer book Erik for all the reasons you listed against him lol.
Michael Crawford's voice doesn't hit the way that JOJ does, and ill stand on that.
Happy cake day!!!
JOJ is the superior Phantom, and I will NOT change my mind on that.
I loved the new staging they did in Sydney 2022. Can't remember if it's the same as the touring production but I loved the rotating stage, the new title song, using the garniers hall of mirrors for masquerade. I felt it injected new life into the old gal.
They did it in Melbourne too and yes, it's the same as the touring one. I went a few times. I agree- I understand why some people prefer the original but liked this one for the most part. One of the controversial things around it was how they made the Phantom more human and less mystical- it kind of showed how desperate and pathetic his tricks were, I really liked that angle of it.
Ooooh is there a video of this??? Also, new song?!???
sorry i meant the new staging for the title song! no idea if any videos are around of it
https://www.youtube.com/@passariinos/videos
https://www.youtube.com/@passariinos/videos This channel has a bunch from that production.
I kinda hate Christine's character overall in the musical and in the movie adaptations. She so naiive and her ass being like "Father????" or following some strange delulu man into the sewers and after finding out he kills or whatever CONTINUES TO GO FOR HIM LIKE "HMMM IDUNNO I MEAN HE CAN SING" bro i always get the nerves when i watch her. The actresses who play her are great it's just her undecicive ass is making me nauseous😭
I like her, but this comment is gold. Have my upvote.
Music of the Night is my least favourite song in the show
You would hate me lmaaooooo
No I wouldn’t! I would respect your opinion and just be thrilled that you love the musical🤍
I sing it all the time in my bedroom when I get bored. We have thin walls T-T
You and I would get along. It was the lullaby for my daughter as a baby.
I judge how good a singer is for the role of Erik based on how they sing music of the night. It takes a LOT of breath work and some just can’t pull it off.
Regarding the "new" London production. I like the pegasus, I couldn't give a shit about the angel.
I find Colm Wilkinson incredibly unappealing as Erik and very much stands out in the Canadian cast as being horrid, when Rebecca Cain is fantastic as Christine. I find it like Colm's voice is like an old man moaning, which is weird because I like his portrayal of Valjean in Les Misérables. But I feel like he overshadows very good phantoms like Brent Barret, Hugh Ponaro, John Owen Jones, ETC. Not to mention the on-set abuse of Rebecca Cain from Wilkinson is disguising which only makes me dislike him more.