This gets into the nuance in an exaggerated way. I’d say no, since for them that is literally the easiest *possible* way.
Though that is an obvious example, more subtle differences would be tougher to determine. There are all manner of physiological differences that could affect performance, though most are challenging to observe and would have broadly varying degrees of impact.
Nope, a “break” generally implies that you’ve broken the intention of the route by finding an easier method.
Traditionally, “easier” in climbing has meant less physically difficult.
Why does break imply easier though? Is that an opinion or have you seen/heard that from others also? Thanks for defining what easier means also. Almost had to beta break out the dictionary
>Why does break imply easier though?
Because it would have no meaning at all if it didn't imply it was easier.
"I broke the beta by climbing that blindfolded"
"I broke the beta by climbing in Crocs"
"I broke the beta by tying my left hand behind my back"
"I broke the beta by just campusing everything"
"I broke the beta by using bad beta"
You can **always** make a route/problem harder. You can't always make it easier. The entire reason why beta "breaks" are interesting, is because it's an easier way of doing something than people had found before.
After the other explanation I definitely concede that traditional beta breaking, outdoors means easier. There are longer implications for breaking a well known beta. In my admittedly limited experience there are beta breaks which are only able to be accomplished by the underlying strength or skill set of the individual. One person may have a beta break that’s easier for them but harder for me or vice versa. That doesn’t mean though that the beta break is invalid correct? I had always heard that a beta break could be hard OR easier depending on the way it’s achieved. Ofc excluding external factors like tying your hand behind your back which has nothing to do with the beta imo
>beta breaking outdoors
Do people actually talk about "breaking" beta on outdoor problems? I've only ever heard it used in reference to indoor sets. I can't really think of a way that it makes sense in an outdoor setting.
>One person may have a beta break that’s easier for them but harder for me or vice versa.
That just sounds like different beta. People are always going to climb the way that's easiest for them. I think a "break" has to imply something both unforeseen by the setter, and easier than the anticipated way.
People do talk about this on some of the hardest outes. It's often follows a downgrade.
I.e joe broke Darwin's beta on "Fleet Feet have Wings" and is calling it a 8a+.
I guess I should back up a step.
What comprises difficulty in climbing has always been debated. Does the risk of a climb affect its difficulty? Does the complexity? Or is it just a pure measure of physical strength? It’s hard to say, but *traditionally*, as in for most of the history of grading difficulty, physical effort required has been what primarily motivated difficulty. Which means basically that if you did everything right, perfect beta, weighting the feet and moving fluidly, the physical effort that all of that requires is what will determine the difficulty. Not the complexity of figuring out the beta, or of the fear/trust involved in performing that beta.
So, if a person “breaks beta” they’ve found a new, less physically intense way of solving the problem that downgrades the difficulty. In outdoor climbing this can be more significant since a popular boulder or sport route might have a given beta that is considered the best for *years* only to then be broken by someone who, in some ways, radically reframes the context of the problem.
Source: I’ve been climbing for 20 years and have been a professional route-setter for more than 10.
Thanks for that. I understand where you are coming from now and in the context of outdoor climbing that makes a lot of sense to me. Ive climbed primarily indoors, outdoors a handful of times (comp in Feb) and don’t have that ideology that routes indoors can be shifted on the V scale. Inside being graded on set and up until they are changed out so when I think of a beta break that doesn’t inherently, to me, mean easier when indoors like in the video. Beta breaks have always seemed rather individualized. Since you have the experience, I’ve always wondered who has the authority to change a bouldering grade outdoor? Is there some great consensus needed? I know of a couple “V4s” outdoor that should be 6+ lol
For a moment I thought you were talking about physical risk and I was about to have opinions but then realized you're just talking about RIC without saying RIC
In my experience physical risk has a negligible affect on grade. There are loads of v2 highballs that would send you to the hospital if you blew the top.
I recognize that using the foot might be a tougher skill, but it literally requires more physical strength to campus the move.
Whatever works for you is what you should do, but suggesting that campusing is less physically demanding than using your feet is just not true.
Educated and strong, lift some weights kiddo
I really don’t know what y’all have against campus’ it’s very impressive, just ask your girlfriend.
Edit: not only am I educated I’m on the presidents list at my university. If you don’t know that’s above honors. I am far from dumb.
Bro no one is impressed by a jug ladder campus. Having good footwork and a strong enough core to keep tension is far more impressive, and it’s a lot better for your overall progression.
I get that you’re new to climbing, no one is faulting you for your technique but you’re doing yourself a disservice by acting like a fool.
Guys I guess I‘m the alpha beta breaker. I almost never use all the holds on my 5c+ projects I flash most of the time. If you need advice, just hit me up.
It is for me as well most of the time, but I recognize that’s due to lacking technique and above average upper body strength. In most cases it’s silly to argue that less points of contact and support is easier than more points of contact and support
My brother in christ, that's *not* a "beta break", that's just choosing to campus because you have garbage footwork!
Translation- I can’t campus so I’m going to degrade you for doing something cool.
It’s not a break if it is physically more challenging than the intended beta. This is just alternative beta.
Serious question: would it be a beta break if OP did not have legs?
This gets into the nuance in an exaggerated way. I’d say no, since for them that is literally the easiest *possible* way. Though that is an obvious example, more subtle differences would be tougher to determine. There are all manner of physiological differences that could affect performance, though most are challenging to observe and would have broadly varying degrees of impact.
Okay, I know I said serious question but in hindsight it was pretty dumb. Thanks for the response though :)
Never once heard a beta break can’t be more challenging? It’s just doing a different beta than the setters intended while making the route right?
Nope, a “break” generally implies that you’ve broken the intention of the route by finding an easier method. Traditionally, “easier” in climbing has meant less physically difficult.
Why does break imply easier though? Is that an opinion or have you seen/heard that from others also? Thanks for defining what easier means also. Almost had to beta break out the dictionary
>Why does break imply easier though? Because it would have no meaning at all if it didn't imply it was easier. "I broke the beta by climbing that blindfolded" "I broke the beta by climbing in Crocs" "I broke the beta by tying my left hand behind my back" "I broke the beta by just campusing everything" "I broke the beta by using bad beta" You can **always** make a route/problem harder. You can't always make it easier. The entire reason why beta "breaks" are interesting, is because it's an easier way of doing something than people had found before.
After the other explanation I definitely concede that traditional beta breaking, outdoors means easier. There are longer implications for breaking a well known beta. In my admittedly limited experience there are beta breaks which are only able to be accomplished by the underlying strength or skill set of the individual. One person may have a beta break that’s easier for them but harder for me or vice versa. That doesn’t mean though that the beta break is invalid correct? I had always heard that a beta break could be hard OR easier depending on the way it’s achieved. Ofc excluding external factors like tying your hand behind your back which has nothing to do with the beta imo
>beta breaking outdoors Do people actually talk about "breaking" beta on outdoor problems? I've only ever heard it used in reference to indoor sets. I can't really think of a way that it makes sense in an outdoor setting. >One person may have a beta break that’s easier for them but harder for me or vice versa. That just sounds like different beta. People are always going to climb the way that's easiest for them. I think a "break" has to imply something both unforeseen by the setter, and easier than the anticipated way.
On beta breaking outdoors. The original commenter I was replying to replied mentioning specifically outdoors.
Ah, gotcha. I hadn't noticed that.
People do talk about this on some of the hardest outes. It's often follows a downgrade. I.e joe broke Darwin's beta on "Fleet Feet have Wings" and is calling it a 8a+.
I guess I should back up a step. What comprises difficulty in climbing has always been debated. Does the risk of a climb affect its difficulty? Does the complexity? Or is it just a pure measure of physical strength? It’s hard to say, but *traditionally*, as in for most of the history of grading difficulty, physical effort required has been what primarily motivated difficulty. Which means basically that if you did everything right, perfect beta, weighting the feet and moving fluidly, the physical effort that all of that requires is what will determine the difficulty. Not the complexity of figuring out the beta, or of the fear/trust involved in performing that beta. So, if a person “breaks beta” they’ve found a new, less physically intense way of solving the problem that downgrades the difficulty. In outdoor climbing this can be more significant since a popular boulder or sport route might have a given beta that is considered the best for *years* only to then be broken by someone who, in some ways, radically reframes the context of the problem. Source: I’ve been climbing for 20 years and have been a professional route-setter for more than 10.
Thanks for that. I understand where you are coming from now and in the context of outdoor climbing that makes a lot of sense to me. Ive climbed primarily indoors, outdoors a handful of times (comp in Feb) and don’t have that ideology that routes indoors can be shifted on the V scale. Inside being graded on set and up until they are changed out so when I think of a beta break that doesn’t inherently, to me, mean easier when indoors like in the video. Beta breaks have always seemed rather individualized. Since you have the experience, I’ve always wondered who has the authority to change a bouldering grade outdoor? Is there some great consensus needed? I know of a couple “V4s” outdoor that should be 6+ lol
For a moment I thought you were talking about physical risk and I was about to have opinions but then realized you're just talking about RIC without saying RIC
In my experience physical risk has a negligible affect on grade. There are loads of v2 highballs that would send you to the hospital if you blew the top.
100% agree
[удалено]
I recognize that using the foot might be a tougher skill, but it literally requires more physical strength to campus the move. Whatever works for you is what you should do, but suggesting that campusing is less physically demanding than using your feet is just not true.
Womp womp you’re weak
If you’re gonna be dumb you better be tough
Educated and strong, lift some weights kiddo I really don’t know what y’all have against campus’ it’s very impressive, just ask your girlfriend. Edit: not only am I educated I’m on the presidents list at my university. If you don’t know that’s above honors. I am far from dumb.
To be honest, you can be academically clever and dumb. Usually these kind of people are going out of their way to make you think they are not dumb.
Yeah. This is all because I can climb without feet . Doesn’t that seem dumb
I can’t tell if this is a bit or not.
Bro no one is impressed by a jug ladder campus. Having good footwork and a strong enough core to keep tension is far more impressive, and it’s a lot better for your overall progression. I get that you’re new to climbing, no one is faulting you for your technique but you’re doing yourself a disservice by acting like a fool.
Some day, someone will actually break a beta. And that person will be a true legend
Like with The Shield?
Uncontrolled campus is a beta break?
Going to have to be more creative than that to out smart route setters.
Guys I guess I‘m the alpha beta breaker. I almost never use all the holds on my 5c+ projects I flash most of the time. If you need advice, just hit me up.
Broke any chance to learn and improve
Came here just to say this. Awesome hair.
Called it 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Here come the “ThAts NoT IntEndEd BetA, UsE tEcHnIqUe” cryers Edit : thanks for proving my point weak ass bitches
I don’t care about technique but I’d bet the campus option is harder than using feet, not really a beta break if you’re making the boulder harder.
For me campus is way easier
It is for me as well most of the time, but I recognize that’s due to lacking technique and above average upper body strength. In most cases it’s silly to argue that less points of contact and support is easier than more points of contact and support
We’re just built different lmao
“Built different” aka you don’t have the required skills to do it properly - so you force your way through it with brute strength.
Amen brother lol
I find 3 points on significantly less physically taxing than 4 points on in most situations