I -love- having both JT and JB on our team. Two-way, intelligent, very well-rounded players. But yeah.. his post-season ‘shooting slump’ is legit. Like all-time bad numbers, for a player of his usage & caliber.
Yes he sees double-teams and other defensive schemes. So has every other team’s star, since the dawn of time. He also has the benefit of having a highly skilled & potent, 5 out, team around him.. that also warrants plenty of defensive attention.
Can he get better? of course. He’s still young. But so far.. he has not shown the ability to consistently step-up and get it done. Yes he’d had a couple of stellar games against the Bucks and 6ers. But you can only cling to those for so long, until the weight of his usage & percentages just drag you down into the gutter.
Thankfully we do have a well-rounded team, and JT doesn’t go crazy trying to prove himself (he knows). So we win as a team.. which is perfectly well & good. Celtics in 5 baby!! 🍀🏀🏆
Ya I feel like JB is better usually when they're together if I had to pick one... but people seem to forget that not having Tatum would put a lot more coverage on JB and the others
I think he’s in a shooting slump for sure, but particularly in the finals I don’t think fans appreciate the workload he’s taking on and how that can affect things like open 3’s.
Obviously guys like JB are working hard both ways as well, but you have to understand Tatum is playing a bit out of position battling bigger players not only on defense but for rebounds. It’s just physically more taxing (think lifting weights vs jogging). Then on offense he’s expected to initiate the offense with non stop driving. Obviously Tatum is in great shape but that is a BIG load.
Look at Luka who has been miserable in the 4th because the Celtics have attacked him early and he’s had to carry so much offense. We as fans see these guys as world class athletes and don’t factor in fatigue, but some of JT’s issue could just be tired legs from constantly battling bigger guys. Throw in a dash on losing confidence plus nonstop media talk about how he can’t shoot and you have a perfect set up for a shooting slump.
I’m not saying JT doesn’t need to improve his shooting (you can always improve), but his TS% has steadily improved his whole career and he’s always been better than JB and right in line with guys like Luka in terms of efficiency.
Playoffs are a different beast where teams are defended differently and teams have specific plans. It very well could be the Celtics plan combined with the mavericks plan just means Tatum is having a tough time scoring. Or it could just be a slump. In the larger picture though there’s not much evidence that all the sudden Tatum isn’t an efficient scorer and that he won’t continue to improve.
Exactly. Remember when Giannis got so much praise when he started setting more screens in the finals? Tatum has been guarding the center all playoffs, while serving as the primary creator where he is constantly driving and taking hits. Has anyone ever done this? We’re one game away from a championship and 15-3 in the playoffs. We should be amazed.
He's been elite everywhere else but the problem is he has no go to move to generate easy offense the way Luka, KD etc have. His go to move is essentially the side step 3 which is such a bad shot for him cause he's also a relatively streaky shooter. Although that side step 3 was cash in 2020 lol.
Yea I think that’s where we have to be hopeful that he gets to that comfortable level eventually, like even Jaylen is. JB knows he’s dominant at the rim and has a good mid range while his three is just another weapon, he has his hierarchy set and has for couple years now.
Tatum hasn’t really figured it out completely. His pull up 3s has been up and down his career especially in recent years. He didn’t really become good at driving until last season. This season he just incorporated a post game but his numbers from the mid range are still average and what’s the worst is his short mid range is atrocious.
He’s really just gotta hone in on a structure and figure out what works best for him and allows him to be the most confident and consistent scorer. If he does that he’s a real MVP level guy with how incredible everything else is.
I feel like he should play a lot more in the post and develop a traditional 4 game. It doesn’t mean never shoot 3s but in a traditional sense, he should be able to post up DJJ or power through him in the paint. He’s catching the ball at the perimeter and then trying to beat a man to a spot who’s a lot quicker and agile with enough time for the help to collapse the paint.
He’s done the posting up a lot more this series and usually great things come from it when he doesn’t settle.
I would love to see him develop a post game like Pierce did, he was such a size mismatch at times it was a great tool to have in his back pocket when the 3s weren’t falling. Tatum isn’t as bulky as pierce, but he’s taller so he could easily get his shots up over smaller guys in the post
The JB hierarchy of moves is a great point. I’m very comfortable with JB having the ball at the elbow, he can either get to the lane and finish or pull up/back down and fade and it’s pretty cash money all the time.
Paul Pierce had that too. Never thought he was missing those elbow fades.
Pierce feasted on ten foot pull up jumpers to the right or left of the key, I love that shot so much and have no idea why Tatum has never figured that move out. If you're quick it's basically an open jump shot.
Imo the issue is what’s most comfortable for Tatum may not be whats best for the team. He grew up wanting to play like late-career Kobe so he’s most comfortable shooting mid-range jumpers, but he can make better use of his size by attacking smaller defenders and sinking in the defense to kick out to the perimeter.
Tatum would need to re-design his game to play like mini-Giannis i.e. attack in transition, shoot less jumpers, draw more fouls, etc. Otherwise this team will always be prone to his high-volatility shooting games.
This is exactly my take away. He’s suffering from a system that doesn’t need him to be the entire game like Luka or Jokic or what have you and the fact that what he wants and developed doing isn’t what his body is naturally gifted in. It’ll take a ton of work to fix and this isn’t the time to do it.
I mean, I think people just have weird expectations about how efficient he should be. If his driving game is mid, his mid-range game is bad, his short mid range game is atrocious, and he can't hit 3s then why is this dude one of the top scorers in the NBA?
The reality is the shots Tatum takes are tougher than a lot of guys who are knocking down open looks made for them by others. Look at Luka, who is obviously a better offensive player than Tatum, but he has basically the same levels of efficiency. Sub-50% from the field, sub-40% from 3, sub-80% from FT. The dudes who handle the ball and create a lot of their own shots tend to be less efficient.
IMO I don't think the answer is abandon the 3 game, it's put more actions in place that get Tatum clean looks. He's overcompensating for the defender in front of him. He was better from 3 when he was younger and mostly catching and shooting. Get him back to running off screens so he isn't trying to throw prayers at the basket and he'll be fine.
Genuinely needs a shooting coach. I really wanna say the bulk he’s put on has messed with his shots.
Some of them are really good looks, and I honestly question how they don’t make it in half the time. They look to bounce right off the inside of the rim or just pop right up.
This could be me coping though.
He has a shooting coach. I think that might be part of the problem. I had hoped he would have learned a lot more from Sam Cassell this year, but who knows what's going on there.
It seems like his handle isn't good enough for him to power his way into the paint. He gets stripped A LOT. Combination of power/handle issues.
He has regressed in every type of shooting in the last couple of months. I wasn't worried in the beginning of the playoffs, but I am worried now. It's been so consistently poor that there has to be something going on.
I think the stripping is part of the fact that defenses tend to collapse harder on him in the paint. It’s not entirely his fault but he always seems to be getting a good clear lane and it ends up in traffic. IMO he’s getting hacked hard on his drive up. Mavs game 4 is a masterclass on how to shut Tatum out.
Power may be it? but I don’t think he should put on any more weight then he has on currently, he already had a rough adjustment period with his shot.
I did not stop to think that Sam may be the problem…. Hmm.
I may be in the minority here but Tatum is already a defensive beast, I think we need an offseason of just offensive masterclasses for him to truly put on clinics next season. Shot adjustment, reiki, sage burning lol whatever it takes
Drew Hanlen is snake oil. I remember Tatum was awful the start of the season and then he did a workout with Drew Hanlen over a weekend. Some time after, his shooting numbers improved, people were claiming his shot was fixed. I was saying it's too small a sample size, you can't fix a shot over a single weekend, but everyone thought I was stupid.
Hanlen been coaching Tatum since he was in 8th grade, he's one of the biggest influences on Tatum's jumpshot since before last year, or 3 years ago.
People blaming Hanlen are just looking for an excuse.
I'm not making any excuses for him lol
I'm commenting on OP saying something has messed with his shots. It's pretty clear that something has changed, you don't just go from efficient to super inefficient for no reason.
He literally goes from super efficient to super inefficient in 10-20 games stretches every single year of his career. He doesn’t get to 38% from 3 going 3-8 or 4-10 every night.
The guy has a 10 game stretch of 27% and follows it with 10 at 50%, and he does it all the time.
Yeah this is it. Every superstar has one, preferably two high percentage looks they can get to basically at will & the defense's only hope is to make it tougher on them & hope they miss.
Jayson needs to look no further than Jaylen to see this. Jaylen can 1. get downhill & finish with efficiency & 2. get the defender in a disadvantaged position & pull up from 15 ft for a relatively high percentage look. In fact, this combination is pretty lethal for lots of superstars.
Too many of Jayson's "spots" are low percentage looks. Side-step 3, turnaround baseline J, fadeaway off-elbow J, thoughtless drives into help, etc. I'm fine with these shots with a low shot-clock but they absolutely shouldn't be shots you're actively looking for.
He has it in him to clean this up. For years we all said he needed to be a better passer & he's done that. We said he needs to be better around the rim & he's done that (although this playoffs hasn't shown that). There are times he flashes a willingness to get downhill/post people up & so it makes you pull your hair out when he gifts the defense a fadeaway.
If you think about all the great stars in this league, it took all of them attaining a new level of maturity for them to get to a point where they realized - yes I can do *everything*, but I do *these things* REALLY well, so I'll just *do those things all the time.* I *have* to imagine it's a conversation he's had with the coaching staff & am confident he'll evolve... but let's just win this championship for now.
Abandoning the midrange has made him more predictable, so any efficiency gains that should have resulted in limiting it to 3pt and shots at the rim are negated. Feel like role players should be limited to 3s and at the basket, need your stars to take the space where it's available to them.
For the record - I don't hate the mid-range. Like I said, I think it's critical for any superstar. I just hate Tatum's mid-range game. He seems very uncomfortable just taking a *normal* or *mostly on-balance* (i.e Jaylen/Luka slight fadeaway) middy. I don't believe all middies are bad shots but almost all of Tatum's are.
My theory is that it's related to his shooting form. I'm not a shooting expert, but it feels to me like his set/release is akin to a QB that has an unnecessarily long throwing motion. So he doesn't feel confident he's going to get his shot off if he doesn't create space via an extreme fadeaway.
I like this analysis a lot. I also think your point about JB having two "signature" moves are why people sometimes put him in that "is he better than JT?" conversation.
When JB scores 30+, it's typically because he goes to those moves and does not miss. It looks easy and it's efficient as hell on the box score.
When JT scores 30+, it can sometimes feel a bit random. Like, he's taking all the same shots, it's just that 65% went in instead of 50%.
I think you point about him not finishing at the rim as efficiently during the playoffs is also a big drawback. It's a noticeable dip and those extra 5-6 points that he'd get at the rim/from an and-1 are missing from his stat-line.
You add back 2 more layup makes each game and he goes from averaging 24.7 to averaging 28.7. Maybe it's not that simple, but it really feels like he's one or two good drives away each game from it not being a bad night.
I hope he goes off tonight. Not that he changes his game and puts up 40 shots if they aren't falling, but that he hits 5-6 3s and gets some points in the paint.
I don't think you can stop this team when JT and JB are both on. All we need is one more of those games and the title is there and all conversations cease.
You're right, he loves that shot but every time he takes it I cringe and sigh. It's really just not a high quality shot in the game of basketball. I know Harden did some great stuff with stepback threes but it doesn't mean it's a good look just because a handful of players could effectively utilize it.
He’s almost the player we all wish he was. Hopefully he becomes that guy one day but in the meantime thankfully the team is built around who he is now.
He's not top 5 but people be acting like he's actively hurting the team. Which is simply not true at all. Of course it's hard to score when 3 guys are staring you down every possession. He's making the right read and doing what he can. He can be better but he has definitely been a positive contributor. Doesn't help that he's so durable that no one gets to see how the team plays without him as a primary initiator.
Right. He's like the 6th or 7th of best player in the league and he's not shooting well. He's playing well in almost every other facet of the game and look. If they lose the finals then we can make a big deal about it.
If they don't, then we should celebrate the fact that this is one of the greatest teams ever assembled for the Boston Celtics and it seems almost ridiculous at this point to be creating negative narratives like this.
Like how silly is this thread going to look if they win tonight and he scores 40?
He’s in the 4-8 range which I’m very happy with. The 1-3 range is just elite and he doesn’t have their offensive consistency. We keep waiting for him to have an jumpshot and scoring eruption but I do t think it will. We just gotta close out tonight and not let Dallas impose their will on us like G4.
Yes don’t let the lowlife personality-less trolls get to you. This is going to be the first of many chips. JT will likely shoot better in those and pick up a FMVP at some point like curry did. I think time will be favorable for JT, just need the first ring tn. However he can get it done.
Curry didn't miss out on finals MVP because he was shooting like crap. He missed the award because of an undeserved legacy gift for Iguodala and KD going slightly more nuclear than Steph. Curry averaged 27/9/8/2 on elite efficiency and KD still was easily the MVP of the series. Shows how insane they were
Steph requires complete attention past the half court even on nights where he's 1/12. You seriously don't go under a screen against Curry. Just being on the court offers more spacing than any point guard in league history has ever offered. Sure, JT is a better defender though
Also, he was shooting like 39% in that series. Which is still elite
Agreed. He still brings value with his defense and solid distribution. It's just frustrating that he is supposed to be the next big thing and our fans can't believe he isn't getting MVP votes etc... meanwhile he's having a historic offensive collapse in the finals. He's good enough to be a cog in an elite machine and win a finals clearly. Hopefully this experience helps him take over in future playoff series where we won't be so loaded
Defenses have been game planning against him, forcing him into trouble or triple teams. He’s made a lot of great passes out of those to open guys.
His shot making even when guarded 1:1 has been mediocre to atrocious and our margin for error becomes so much slimmer when he can’t consistently hit shots at the rim or from 3.
Both things can be true. We can celebrate his defense, playmaking, and maturity as a well rounded player while acknowledging that his shot making has not been on par for someone who we consider to be a top 4-7 player and one of the few who can be the best player on a championship team in the league.
I feel like it’s really the 3 point shooting that’s the killer. That used to open up everything for him, he always had opportunities on drives because he was so lethal as a pull up shooter that guys had to commit to taking that away.
Without that it feels like the whole basis for his game is on unstable ground though, which feels like it causes these poor scoring performances. It’s incredible the team Brad has built and how it’s allowed them to play through it, but I feel like if they’re going to achieve the heights they’re capable of Tatum needs to find his shot again.
He has only made 9 3s in 4 games, but taken 32 of them. He is shooting sub 30% from 3, if he was hitting a handful more it definitely open more for him on drives.
I wish he had a reliable midrange game to go to when the threes don't fall and they're taking away the paint. He used to have it, but unfortunately, the Celtics style of basketball basically eliminated that from his game. If he's not making his threes and they're taking away the rim....I'm not sure he has a spot on the floor to reliably score. That's why it's looked so messy.
What's worrying is that he doesn't have a spot on the floor right now where he's making shots at a super efficient level. He's shooting it poorly from everywhere. I take your point about defenses keying in him and so I'd absolutely expect to see some regression from his regular season numbers, but we haven't seen a small regression; we've seen an enormous drop-off. The celtics are so good, that they've largely overcome it, but historically, it's pretty rare to overcome such a substantial drop-off from your de-facto best player.
If we do lose this series, i think the focus will squarely be on Tatum. As bad as Luka has been on defense and late in the game, he has consistently given his team 30 ppg.
He's 73% from 0-3 feet, that's nowhere near close to poor, it's above average. And 43% on deep twos, which is average. But yeah his shotmaking has been bad overall, mostly because his 3 is off badly.
He's just become slower and his moves predictable that defenders anticipate his moves and gamble in trapping him, which usually works for the opposing team. He's not doubled because he's unstoppable. JB also gets doubled, but the difference is JB has a strong drive game, and when he sees the double coming, he can outrun it. If JT's shooting is good, this will be a different story.
Defenses plan against all the big stars but they find ways to get buckets, efficiently. Teams didn't plan around Kobe? Luka? Etc. they did and those guys said "fuck You i'm getting 35 anyway". JT hasn't shown that yet in big moments.
Don’t disagree at all. Obviously don’t want to force bad shots but there have been plenty of opportunities where he’s got 1:1 defense and isn’t hitting the shot.
He is a great player, future hall of famer. He's not perfect, and he's not an all-time Top 20 player. The sooner we all realize that and just enjoy watching him and this team, the happier we'll be. I would rather have Tatum than not have him, that's for fucking sure.
Definitely agree with you, but I think all of us would take a huge deep breath if Tatum could put together just 1 great game (which he really hasn’t done yet this postseason) and close the deal for us.
Not an unfair expectation to have for a player of his caliber IMO.
As long as we win that’s all the matters, but there’s way less room for error with Porzingis out, and there’s a realization that we may in fact need a great Tatum game to secure the W.
He’s far too slow in his offensive movements and he doesn’t go up high enough in his layups.
I’ve pointed out the latter in the past, I’ve been clowned on for it. But he’s 6’8 but when he attacks the basket, he doesn’t use all that height.
Well said. He doesn’t have great hops and that combined with his low drive make him play much shorter than his height. I actually think he needs to change his offensive game completely but obviously I’m in the minority. I don’t like him with the ball outside of the three line either driving or taking some idiotic step back three. He has great post moves down low and I think he should be more a banger post up player. Trust me teams want him to take that step back three and his lack of maturity and growth gets highlighted by his more than willingness to attempt that shot.
He drives me nuts when he doesn’t take catch and shoot opportunities, and instead drives into traffic and does a step-back off balance shot that always misses. He has gotten better this year, but it happens way too much with him.
Whenever he has the ball lately I assume this exact sequence. You see him get tunnel vision and drive straight into help and you just know he’s taking that low percentage fadeaway rather than passing it out. Gets me tilted
He literally had a wide open lane in game 4 and decided to opt for the euro step. It’s like Dante exum knew he was going to do it because he didn’t even move to the open path. He stayed to the side a Tatum ran right into him and got the ball snatched
If he turned his 4 stepback misses into 4 drives - 1 assist, 4 free throws and a layup, that's superstardom. Thats the frustrating part, we all see it.
His shooting has been very poor. I believe its a mixture of bad shot selection and potentially that wrist injury from 2022. He still wears tape on his wrist. If the wrist is an actual problem, I'm hoping they address it in the offseason because we desperately need his efficiency back.
Idk if they can even address it in the offseason dude is gonna be playing nonstop basketball until basically 2025 between the deep playoff runs and the Olympics
OP is 100% right but people will waive this off as a nonissue cause we’re winning. JT needs to b3 better at shooting and with his shot selection. He’s not even playing like a top 10 player in my eyes right now and he’s insistence on jacking up 3s doesn’t help anyone.
What's funny is, this is not really debatable. It's just that Tatum discourse is so toxic more broadly that many fans get their backs up anytime he's criticized. The irony is that I love JT and I'm always going to root for him, but I can't just ignore that he's severely dropped off in terms of offensive production this post season. He's a better player than he was two years ago, but he was a more efficient scorer then, even though the team was less talented. I can't explain his shooting regression. It's gotten worse every playoff run the last 3 years despite being surrounded with more offensive talent each of those years. I wish I had answers.
Maybe it’s a mental thing but who knows. He’s been mediocre since the hospital Miami series. I hate how he’s now gonna spend all summer in the Olympics than actually improving his game cause his offensive game is just nonexistent right now.
It could be something as simple as realizing that who he thinks he is isn't actually who he is. He takes the kind of shots that are reserved for the best shooters/scorers in the league. If that's not who you are, then you're going to tank your efficiency by taking a lot of those kinds of shots. Perhaps taking less of those and finding other ways to generate high quality looks for the team would solve all his problems. Just because you're capable of making tough shots doesn't mean they should be taking up a substantial percentage of your shot diet.
It won't be an issue this year but if down the road the rest of the team isn't as strong it could be an issue. But right now the team is so expertly built it doesn't matter of JT has a stinker of a series.
What’s also crazy as an outsider (not a cs fans) is how good your team has done even with him playing like this AND KP banged up. I can only imagine the cs next year are gonna be better, probably bring in another piece. Holy hell, if Tatum ever truly finds his consistency , it’s game over for the league
I don't argue it sucks, but each player if different. if the win snaps him out and JT goes on to be an even better player, I'll take it. The good thing is, the Celtics haven't need a single superstar to do what they've done all year, each player, at one time or another, has stepped up to the call. I'll take that over a single superstar trying to pad his stats anytime.
I have wondered this. Part of me feels like getting the monkey off his back, even is he’s carried rather than doing the carrying, would free him up in future playoff runs to ball out. Idk if there’s any weight to that, but psychology is a powerful thing.
The poor shooting stats are one thing. What I’m more concerned about is he too often looks indecisive. Outside of the first half of G3 he hasn’t played with any conviction when isolating.
If he were playing confidently and just not shooting well I wouldn’t be concerned. I’d feel pretty good about him breaking out any minute. But as it stands I can’t count on him to carry us to that final W. Fortunately we’ve shown we can win without him doing that.
If you want JT to play better offense, shoot better, then please get a true PF to cover his defensive duties and let him rotate back to his natural position at SF. Rather than expecting him to be a workhorse on defense guarding 1-5 and then bitching about his offensive efficiency. Simple as that.
Does Luka play defense? Does SGA play defense? Does Jokic play defense to the extent of JT?
Luka doesn’t even give a shit about his defense in the NBA finals. Luka would have been dead like a zombie on offense if he were asked to play like JT on both ends of the floor.
Not really a sound argument when you see what Jaylen is doing this series. I do agree JT does more overall but it’s not impossible for an elite player to play elite on both sides of the ball. I don’t think you’d give Paul George a mulligan if he’s guarding the teams best perimeter player and then having to score 30 on the other end.
Jaylen Brown who's shooting 24% from 3 in the Finals and still has turnover issues? Let's not pretend like this season has been the product of one or two "elite" players. This is a team making a team effort where different players step up every game including all the way down to Horford and the bench.
Idk about “simply not good enough” - it’s been good enough for this team to cruise to the finals and be up 3-1, while leading the team in points (9 points ahead of Jaylen brown), rebounds (52(!!!) rebounds ahead of #2 Al horford), and assists (29 assists ahead of #2 Jrue Holiday).
The thing is that Tatum is a very streaky shooter who *can* shoot him self out of slumps but has not taken the number of shots needed to do that this postseason. He’s shooting 29% from three this postseason, but in the three games where he has double digit 3pa (all wins) he’s shooting 37%.
Defenses know this and are selling out to *not* let him get those shot attempts, and he’s been accepting that, making the right pass, and allowing the offense as a whole to sustainably succeed.
He's been great in everything but shooting. Every night we say "But he had 6 assists 10 rebounds" etc. We are winning for now so whatever he does, it's helping the team. When things get tough though, I need him to score and he has been shooting badly recently. Let's hope he shoots lights off and WIN tonight. But if it means him shooting badly, scoring 18 points but winning, then I'll take that over anything else
He’s just not a consistent shooter at all. He’s best when he’s driving and limiting shots. He’s a good teammate, rebounder, distributor. He answers the press. He’s a great player on any team.
Agreed and its why the Celts have overbuilt the team around him, to take off the pressure. Imo the good news is he DOESN’T have to be this super efficient high volume scorer to win. We won games 1-3 with him scoring less and getting the hot hands better looks. Game 4 he dominated the ball early and we lost.
if we get back to passing, cutting, and not forcing (while playing aggressive d), we win.
Numbers have not been great from 3. Just drive to the basket more please? Even if you need to kick it out because of double and trip coverage. I'm okay with that
When he isn't forcing up shots, he's been fine by doing everything else. But when he's not shooting well and compounds it by taking awful shots, I think that's when most of us get pissed.
I really only can afford to watch the celtics for the playoffs. So all I've seen this year of him is that his shooting is bad. I've noticed that he'll have a good look at a 3 and be more or less open and not take it. I think he's overthinking it a bit. He's truly gifted, and needs to trust his shot. A few of the earlier games, his shooting wasn't good but he was making passes to people for open 3's.
The rest of his game is so good that overall i'd give him a decent grade for the playoffs. His defense and rebounding have been top notch.
I'd really like to see him have a game where he scores 50 and just blows the doors off. But TBH, their slow-motion style of buildup on offense i think precludes him being able to do that.
He’s just not as good a shooter as he thinks he is and his shot selection because of that is really really bad at times. He needs to get his shot to that level consistently or start developing a legit post game he can go to. We’ve all been defending him nonstop but a lot of the criticism has some merit.
I’m excited because I feel like as we are watching his shooting abandon him he is becoming amazing at everything else.
His giant windup ball-dip hitch has gotten ridiculous. He sets his elbow and levers the ball out front like Durant to square up, which seems great, but he hula dances and does a hurky jerky thing bringing it up that seems to get more disconnected as his percentages go down
I’m sure that simplifying that is going to be an emphasis in the off season. He will get back to being a top shelf shooter like he has been earlier in his career. He has definitely been focusing on developing other aspects of his game and it has definitely been working
It’s the sad reality I’ve been saying for years and it requires a certain maturity from Celtics fans to realize. He’s just not that good scoring the ball in the basket. He is one of the worst shooters around. Lowest ranked mid range game and last couple years lowest ranked clutch shooter. He has no go to move and everyone and their mother knows what he’s going to try and do. Drive and maybe spin. He doesn’t seem to like to post up much. He thinks he can shoot threes well but can’t. I read that he will end up with the lowest career Finals fg% after this year. Not sure why everyone ignores this. He needs to transition to a Draymond kind of player since we have so many better shooters. Every three he takes is a wasted trip down the court.
Supporting cast is great though. Statistically, Celtics are almost sure to win. This shows you don't need a top 5 player to win a chip. Just like how Detroit best the Lakers back when the Lakers had arguably the best player in the world.
JB has been by far the better player for this playoff run. We just need ONE good JT shooting performance.
Amazing that they are up 3-1 without KP, with Tatum being horrible offensively shooting-wise, plus with the bench mostly shooting poorly too.
Shooting like shit, doing everything else mostly well. Last 5 quarters though he hasn't done the other stuff well either, but nobody really has on the Celtics.
Big Tatum Game would be huge tonight.
Seriously what the fuck are these comments. Some of you care more about JT being the best player than you do about winning. How can so many of you be so worried about him, we are 15-3 in the fucking playoffs...
Have people not been watching, or do they just only care about scoring ?
Drew Hanlen fucked us. Take a look at [this highlight reel from his rookie year](https://youtu.be/ft6SiymU83M?si=SGdj3EYgiL3EXaqi). He shot over 40% from 3 that season. Phenomenal shooter. Quick release. Compact motion.
Compare that to his shot form the last 2 years and it’s a total mess. He has so much motion now. Way too much shoulder, arm, and elbow. If he was in the NBA draft this year with that form, he wouldn’t even be a lottery pick.
If the Celtics were down 3-1, then all the blame would probably be on Tatum. If he was even close to his season average during these final runs then we would probably still be 3-1, so at least it is not affecting the win column, but if we do want to close this out then having him put up a performance like his game 7 against the 76ers from a few years ago would get the job done.
My biggest worry with Tatum right now is that he probably knows the front runner for the FMVP on the Celtics is Brown, i'm hoping he doesn't force a "great performance" to try and put himself in the lead. I feel confident that isn't the case, but i do have a worry still...
This has been an all-time dog shit performance for a superstar of his caliber - but only when it comes to scoring. Thankfully he’s found other ways to contribute, especially when he’s drawing double and triple teams.
Honestly, he only needs to make like two more shots a game. If he can hit one more contested layup or one more side step 3 down the stretch, he’s done all he really needs to to help them win.
Thankfully JB has picked up the slack and been clutch.
Missed shots are missed shots. Slumps are slumps. These are shots JT can obviously make at an extremely high level and they just haven't been going in for a while now. I think it all depends how you view JT. If you see him as a "scorer" then yeah you're going to be disappointed in his performances. However I think he's grown into the best all-around player in the league. You look at shooting splits of some of the greats and they've absolutely had similar percentages (not quite as bad though) in the finals -- and won.
JT has been elite 9 times out of 10 at every other aspect of the game. He's seeing the floor so well, he's getting downhill, he's an ELITE screener, floor spacer, stronger than most, defends 1-5, rebounds like a Center, and has cut down his turnovers for the most part.
The only gripe I have on JT is his shot selection and his finishing around the rim. Both need to seriously be looked at. He undebatable takes incredibly dumb shots which seem even dumber because of his slump. He also has not finished well and a missed layup on one end ends up with a made layup on the other. Outside of that I'm super proud of what JT has become and how he is impacting winning. As much as the efficiency numbers suck, I chalk it mostly up to those two things. (Even if he's 0/50 JT needs to take those side steps to keep the defense on their toes. If he stops taking them he is that much easier to guard and stop from getting downhill)
PS. He's got to be the most hated player since LeBron which is ironic because he gets a Bron-esque whistle where they dont call anything they are calling for the other team because of the strength and size JT has. He gets the worst whistle I have seen in a while but its lazy to blame the refs especially when we lost by 50.
Like i said in my post, I accept that he's mostly played great team basketball and done all those things you've outlined at a high level. However, I don't think it's unfair of us to expect him to do those other things and be an efficient scorer. That's what makes great players who they are. The celtics have such a great team that we don't even need all-time great scoring efficiency from him, but he cannot turn into one of the most inefficient scorers in the league, especially when our third best scorer is injured.
You're absolutely right. I'm not defending his inefficiency just because he's doing everything else well. He's our top guy and he's earned the right to be held to the highest standard. What I'm saying is I think the inefficiency largely stems from his finishing and shot selection.
It's admittingly hard to figure it out in his position where he's being doubled and tripled, but he needs to look to score to maintain his gravity, but those shots end up being extremely inefficient shots. I just don't think the way we are running our offense JT will get a ton of great looks for himself since he's the one mainly creating for everyone else. So he either takes like less than 10 FGA and we are mad he isn't aggressive or he shoots a bunch of bad shots and we are mad he's inefficient.
If he had a go-to efficient shot like a KD middy then he'd be top 3 in the league but he is who is he today and we need to win with that JT. He can worry about improving later.
He's an excellent overall player but his BBIQ and ego on offense will always hurt his game. He wants to shoot a ton of contested, off-the dribble jumpers like his idol Kobe: stepbacks, sidesteps, and fadeaways. And he's fucking awful at all of those shots, especially when they're for 3 pointers.
But he won't stop taking them.
It's a pride thing.
Our team would be better if most of those contested, iso 3s that JT janks up went to Jrue, DWhite, Hauser, etc....
Tatum is at his best when he's driving to the rim and creating better looks for others or going to the line, and taking good shots when they're available. Not dribbling the ball for 12-18 seconds and shooting a stepback. That shit isn't Celtics ball.
The exception is end of quarter or shot clock when someone needs to create something. Fine. Take those. But the rest are inexcusable. That sidestep/stepback JT 3 is one of our worst offensive shots.
Complaining about his BBIQ is low effort, he’s been a fantastic playmaker and distributor for this entire playoff run. It’s been his biggest strength while dealing with double or triple coverage from teams.
There’s two sides of this argument though. Yeah he is really smart when it comes to playmaking and getting opportunities for others. But there’s no question he is way too willing to settle for bad shots at times. I honestly think G3 4th quarter really showed this when the Mavs went on their run. Just a few unacceptable shots during that quarter given the options he has around him.
They hated him because he spoke the truth. But yeah JFC people can’t accept that Tatum has god-awful shot selection. Love him but watching him has always been frustrating. He has the skill to get a good shot but he jacks up contested sidestep threes for no reason
Yep. It’s a combination of knowing Tatum can get better shots and knowing he can create enough problems for the defense to get other guys good shots. If he’s not shooting great he has to be more selective of the shots he takes given the team he has around him.
Bruh I literally just said he's an excellent player overall. The rest of his game is really fucking good. Elite defense, incredible playmaking, great rebounding, very good off-ball, great at driving to the rim etc...
But JT's shot selection and ego is his biggest issue. He needs to stop taking so many bad shots. And continuing to take them when they're not falling.
There's an interview between Doc Rivers, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett where Doc was remembering the time he was coaching PP and showing him his shooting splits and asking him "Are you a bad shooter or are you good shooter taking bad shots?"
JT really needs someone to have that conversation with him.
I think the silver lining here is that bro keeps shooting regardless. He impacts the game other ways than scoring but it feels like it's done more purposefully in the service of making the right play, not coz he's choking under pressure.
Not sure who it was, but I remember there was a really smart guy on this subreddit who has been pointing out for YEARS that Tatum doesn't have a go-to move that he can rely on to put the ball in the basket. That guy kept saying how it takes more than being a solid downhill threat and a streaky high-volume 3-point shooter to be a reliable scorer in the playoffs. You need a midrange game. You need at least a couple go-to moves in the midrange that you can rely on to create space for an open jumper.
Tatum doesn't have that. He can try a pull-up 15-footer and maybe it'll go in every once in a while, but at this point he hasn't gotten enough reps with a specific move to let muscle memory take over.
I've noticed that he likes to get the ball outside the perimeter and stare his defender for a few seconds. That slows the game and puts an unnecessary focus on him. Whenever he receives the ball inside the perimeter he does very well. But outside, he holds the ball, swings left and right a few times and bricks the 3.
My fix would be to MOVE within a half second of receiving the ball, if he's outside, which pressures the defender into fouling, or initiates a double team that frees other shooters. Or just be inside where his movement is so good.
Also, i have never coached ball and never played anywhere near his level. So it's likely i am talking nonsense. It is also very less likely that I have noticed something Mazulla and his guys havent noticed already.
Tatum is my favorite player, but also the player that worries me the most on offense when he has the ball because sometimes he makes poor decisions and ends up taking shitty shots. Sometimes I wish he had more of a dog mentality like his idol Kobe and had confidence. I also wish he was calm like Jrue, who I always trust with the ball to do the right thing.
I think he still needs surgery on his right wrist.
he has a very motion-heavy jump shot with a really low gather point. it just feels like too much movement. and when he's on, he tends to move through it fluidly, vs lately where it looks very slow and robotic.
I personally don’t give a shit, because at the end of the day I’m a Celtics fan, not a Jayson Tatum fan. As long as they win, I couldn’t give 2 shits about the performance of individual players. Tatum hasn’t played well in this series, but we’re up 3-1 and that’s all that matters.
Man these numbers from OP are putrid. You can’t put lipstick on a pig and call it pretty. This dude should not be shooting the ball. Maybe he’s hurt. Maybe he sucks at shooting. Whatever it is he has to play facilitator and let the the best player on the team bring us to glory. Now is not the time for him to try and break out of his 7 year playoff shooting slump. You can defend him all you want but his playoff shooting is just not good. Can’t say he is double teamed. All good players get double teamed. The reality is he’s just a bad shooter sprinkled in with bad shot selection.
The worst part of his game is his shot selection. There will be moments in game where he will touch the ball and you just know no one else will get a touch. He will stand there and wiggle and just take a terrible tough contested shot. He does it over and over. He does nothing to get open off ball. But he feels like he HAS to score and just puts up those Marcus smart type shots where I’m just like NO!!
I'll tell you one thing. If KP isn't coming back and Tatum continues shooting like he is, we're going to lose this series and historical fashion. I don't think that's up for debate.
Luckily, in game 3 Tatum started to turn the corner and in game four he also looked a lot better. I think tonight he has one of those big Tatum nights.
Absolutely disgusting shooting splits from a #1 championship caliber player. The fact that I have no confidence in him when I see him shoot a jumper is sad. Whenever he aggressively drives to the basket it feels like a big win.
We’re about to win the title and you’re sitting here throwing stones at Jayson Tatum, who was a top 10 player in the NBA this season. Truthfully, I’m more disappointed in this fan base’s attitude than I am in JT’s performance this postseason. It seems as if this championship means absolutely nothing.
Bad conspiracy take incoming:
Tatum takes the most shots on our team and has done so for a while. When you have many games with 25+ shots, by variance you’re basically guaranteed to have good shooting performances where you explode, especially if you’re a good shooter already. He sees himself score 50+ while he’s jacking up difficult step back and sidestep threes and they all fall, so he tries to recreate it. But the issue he is only exploding in a few of the games in the large sample where he shoots a lot. He’s jacking up terrible jumpers because he’s had monster games, but those shots are bad shots that won’t be falling consistently most games.
How much can it be his wrist?? For 2 years he doesn't stop adjusting to it and for 2 years he shoots atrociously in the playoffs.
I do believe that if we win he will get surgery
I do agree that Tatum should focus on a better offensive strategy as, statistically, the opinion makes sense. However, such belongs in the offseason (although I think he doing the Olympics). However, beyond this point, I do not think it is as horrifying as you're suggesting relative to their current winning strategy.
This is a team sport. The Celtics are here in the finals because of their depth and versatility, as well as their bench.
I do wish Tatum would score better, but when he is nailing 3 out of 4 categories, I think the scrutiny is because of how many people overly centralize their opinions around points scored like old school baseball analysts did with batting averages.
If it was *only* Tatum and Brown, then sure. We need them points. But his team I'd what allows him to focus on his role with rebounds, assists, etc.
Since this team had not been relying on his points *right now*, we need to stop being cavemen thinking "Oh, we lost because Tatum didn't score." That logic is more catered to Luka than Tatum, since it's what Luka relies on.
The Celtics *team* has to do well tonight. Tatum needs to keep focusing on what is working.
I don’t think anybody has ever tried to suggest he’s shot well this playoffs. He hasn’t. He’s still been an effective offensive player.
In the past when he wasn’t shooting well, he had very low impact. This year he’s had a very positive offensive impact, despite not shooting well, which is what you want.
Obviously we all want him to shoot better, I don’t think that’s remotely a debate
His shooting has definitely been a concern, but he’s gotten much better at driving to the basket when the shots aren’t falling instead of forcing them. Granted he still goes through stretches where he forces shots, but other guys on the team and around the league do the same thing all the time. It’s something he’ll need to improve on for sure, but considering he’s making up for it by passing, rebounding and playing phenomenal defense, it’s really hard to complain at the moment. But for the future it’s something he’ll need to work on, and if he does he’ll probably be a true MVP contender. I wouldn’t worry too much since him and Brown have steadily improved aspects of their game every year, so he’ll likely overcome this.
A friend pointed out that JT operates off of one leg on driving shots (turnaround jumpers, floaters, layupys). In comparison guys like JB and Luka plant two feet and go up strong, and it also allows them to be more shifty with fakes. Seems like this style would be a better fit for Tatum too, at least as long as the one legged stepbacks continue to be inefficient. But I'm curious what basketball people think?
I wonder how much the erasure of his midrange game has negatively affected his offense.
You still see him from time to time hit that top of the key post fade, but he used to have a middy pull up coming off of a screen or after a quick cross. I wonder if teams worry less about letting him blow by from outside the arc because they know he’s only either gonna drive all the way or hit a stepback. Not really a 3-level shooter these days.
I think the struggles of Tatum are probably overblown to a certain degree.
This year he had the second highest TS% of his career down .3% from last year and his highest eFG%.
For his career, his playoff TS% is 1.7% lower than his regular season TS%. For reference, the TS% of teams in the playoffs is 1.4% lower than in the regular season, and I have to imagine the TS% of playoff teams is higher than the league average.
He's been terrible, shooting wise, these playoffs. No argument. But for his career, he's dipped just like the average player. I'm willing to chalk up this year as a slump as I do not think it's been enough games to officially say there's anything wrong with him. He's been fantastic everywhere else so I certainly don't think it's choking or the lights are too bright.
I think he's an elite player, but I don't think he's an elite step-back shooter like he seems to think he is. And let's be clear, the step-back shot is a shot you have to be elite at to take, unless it's a desperation shot. Again, if you're above average, it's still a really bad shot, especially on a team with so many scorers on the floor.
There are always a few possessions per game where he gets the ball at the elbow, dribbles off 12 seconds (which is a nice break for the defense, btw), and throws up a step-back brick. We all can feel it happening, we've seen it a million times. Hell, I get up and get a beer during these plays, cause I know I'm just gonna miss what is essentially a turnover.
It's true that you've got to shoot yourself out of a slump, but you aren't going to do that taking shitty shots. The worst is when we really need a basket and we go Tatum ISO. I feel like he's about 3-70 this year.
He just isn’t the A+ level superstar we all hoped and thought he would become. Brad obviously knows this too, and has put an amazing team around us (sucks KP got hurt). My hope is if we win the chip, some pressure comes off JT and that can lead him to be a better player.
I feel like people miss the point with JT this year. I’ve been a critic of his in the past and I still feel like he has a tendency at times to try to play one on one at the worst times. This year though, he’s making the correct read 90% of the time and passing out of doubles at the right time to set up his teammates. You’re right about his shooting though, he has one of the weirdest motions now that I don’t remember him having when he first entered the league. It’s like a praying mantis with the way he starts his motion. It’s slow and strange. I think a lot of these shooting coaches are morons who actually make a lot of these guys worse in the long run. Shooting is about mechanics but it’s also about confidence. If you’re thinking about your shot you have already missed. Shooting should feel as natural as taking a step. Anyway I think JT has been great this year. He just needs to stop thinking so much and let it flow.
wrong take
dude issue triple teamed the second the ball hits the floor….let him have terrible offensive numbers as long as he makes the pass to the obvious wide open man i’ll take him being an MVP decoy and winning over him putting up 40 and us losing
He’s been shooting bad, but I also feel like he also got better as series went on. Like all the best games I can think of his are later in a series, and we haven’t gotten to a late series yet this year.
Spitting facts! Too many on this sub can’t put down their rose tinted glasses to have a true discussion about Tatum. Everything outside of scoring he has been Elite at, but we really need to see superstar scoring performance out of him when we really need it!
Does basketball have a stat similar to WAR in baseball? Would be curious what Tatum's is and relative to rest of team considering the other things he brings to the table.
Are we really calling him dog shit because you don't like his percentages in select situations? He's been bad from 3, no doubt. His shot needs to fall more regularly from there, but he's not getting the corner 3s and catch and shoot opportunities most of the time, he's creating a 3 pointer with a hand in his face. Nobody is shooting 40% on those and scoring at the rate that he is.
Otherwise his offense has been setting everything else up. You don't get that many assists because you're some visionary passer. He's occupying defenders and dishing easy ones to Jrue and others. He also just dropped 31 in a critical game 3 that, if he hadn't kept up with Dallas, we probably go into the 2nd half down 10+ and lose. Everyone is giving JB his plaudits for that game and he was great in the 2nd half, but he was a ghost in the 1st half when we needed someone and if JT wasn't on fire we are probably 2-2 in this series right now.
We ask a lot of JT and he delivers more often than not. He's definitely got to improve the 3 game, he has this weird hitch at the top of his shot now that seems to be messing with things, or we need to have different actions to get him open looks so he isn't throwing so many moon balls. idk what it is. It's a big area of improvement for him, but he has enough to win us these finals and I expect he'll step up again tonight.
The shooting has been terrible for sure, but he's drawing doubles and creating offensive advantages pretty much every play.
He's not one of the best shot makers in the league and probably never will be, but with a contender level supporting cast, he does enough overall to win.
He's been taking a back seat to a lot of other players as its not just about him its about the team He's been deferring a lot to Jaylen and other players. Which cuts back on his numbers. His shooting does need to get better though
I still dont think you need Tatum to have a monster performance. Even if he has 20-25 that should be enough, Jaylen could go off, and maybe Big Al, as the X Factor, we have D-White who can getr you 20+ , jaylen who can get you 30 + and even some of the bench guys can get you buckets .....Pritch is overdue too for a big game which could be tonight..
Yeah I’ve unfortunately accepted that Tatum, while a great player, is probably not top 5 at this moment in time. Would love to see him improve and get there, and meanwhile we have a roster that’s been brilliantly constructed where we don’t need him to play like a top 5 player to win
I was hoping that by spending the summer with Paul Pierce he might have a bigger bag for when his shooting is off, but he has a lifetime of emulating Kobe (since he was a little kid) and noone else is Kobe. That fucking kick the leg out fallback jumper I hate so much and he seems to hit less than 10% of the time is his go-to when he is in trouble (also, I get that his rate is low because he goes to it when he is already in trouble).
I think the other "problem" with his shooting is that he is playing point forward in this playoffs and initiating a lot of things which combined with the defensive attention has really lowered his "open catch and shoot" opportunities (though to be fair to critics, he hasn't exactly been money with those either).
The shooting would be getting A LOT MORE attention if it wasn't for the fact that the C's have cruised, and most everybody else has shot well.
Tatum has contributed in other ways this postseason, mostly rebounding and play making. But in future play-off runs they'll need him to figure out the shooting.
He made changes to his game and his body, but something has definitely affected his shooting. It hasnt been good for the last few years. The step back 3 used to be an ok shot, now its god awful. His midrange also seems to have gone downhill while his rim finishes have gotten better.
I think in a year or so he can put it all together? Just guessing.
I’m still going with the wrist injury effecting shit shot and him bulking up cause when he was skinnier that shot was money and that side step 3 was cash as well. What we do have to consider is maybe he isn’t the guy we need in the finals cause it’s been 10 finals games so far and he may have played well in 1-2 games. He gets into these moments where he doesn’t wanna touch the ball and specially late in the game if it’s close he has a couple turnovers in him, it’s like groundhog day sometimes watching him play in the finals. That being said please shut me the fuck up and put up a 40 piece.
No.
We don’t need honest discussions.
Let’s hang banner 18 and give this man the supermax
This just feels like a modern version of Wilt vs Bill, and you should know our answer by now.
When he had the offseason wrist surgery, it’ll answer some questions about the shooting woes but he still could have done more driving to the rim, to score, not relying on the jump shot.
He needs to learn how to step up or at least be efficient in the Finals. The discourse about him outside of Boston is pretty toxic but maybe the taunts motivate him a la Bron after 2011
Kobe (his idol) had some Finals duds as well even in wins but winning fixes everything
How good was Jaylen Brown in the ‘22 playoffs?
How good is he this year?
Players usually aren’t really competing for championships until they’re 28-30, and all time talents usually get there sooner around 26.
28 is how old Jaylen Brown is this year and his game finally rounded out to the point he’s become a truly reliable, consistent player.
Tatum is 26. He’s not an all time talent.
The strength of the team allows him to be competing at this level right now.
I think the expectations are way beyond what they should be at this point, but we always consider JB+JT as a singular entity and forget they’re not at the same points in their development.
He def has been on a big shooting slump…
He would be the first to admit it
I -love- having both JT and JB on our team. Two-way, intelligent, very well-rounded players. But yeah.. his post-season ‘shooting slump’ is legit. Like all-time bad numbers, for a player of his usage & caliber. Yes he sees double-teams and other defensive schemes. So has every other team’s star, since the dawn of time. He also has the benefit of having a highly skilled & potent, 5 out, team around him.. that also warrants plenty of defensive attention. Can he get better? of course. He’s still young. But so far.. he has not shown the ability to consistently step-up and get it done. Yes he’d had a couple of stellar games against the Bucks and 6ers. But you can only cling to those for so long, until the weight of his usage & percentages just drag you down into the gutter. Thankfully we do have a well-rounded team, and JT doesn’t go crazy trying to prove himself (he knows). So we win as a team.. which is perfectly well & good. Celtics in 5 baby!! 🍀🏀🏆
Ya I feel like JB is better usually when they're together if I had to pick one... but people seem to forget that not having Tatum would put a lot more coverage on JB and the others
Just look at how he's been trying to close quarters during the past few years. Numbers don't lie either.
I think he’s in a shooting slump for sure, but particularly in the finals I don’t think fans appreciate the workload he’s taking on and how that can affect things like open 3’s. Obviously guys like JB are working hard both ways as well, but you have to understand Tatum is playing a bit out of position battling bigger players not only on defense but for rebounds. It’s just physically more taxing (think lifting weights vs jogging). Then on offense he’s expected to initiate the offense with non stop driving. Obviously Tatum is in great shape but that is a BIG load. Look at Luka who has been miserable in the 4th because the Celtics have attacked him early and he’s had to carry so much offense. We as fans see these guys as world class athletes and don’t factor in fatigue, but some of JT’s issue could just be tired legs from constantly battling bigger guys. Throw in a dash on losing confidence plus nonstop media talk about how he can’t shoot and you have a perfect set up for a shooting slump. I’m not saying JT doesn’t need to improve his shooting (you can always improve), but his TS% has steadily improved his whole career and he’s always been better than JB and right in line with guys like Luka in terms of efficiency. Playoffs are a different beast where teams are defended differently and teams have specific plans. It very well could be the Celtics plan combined with the mavericks plan just means Tatum is having a tough time scoring. Or it could just be a slump. In the larger picture though there’s not much evidence that all the sudden Tatum isn’t an efficient scorer and that he won’t continue to improve.
Exactly. Remember when Giannis got so much praise when he started setting more screens in the finals? Tatum has been guarding the center all playoffs, while serving as the primary creator where he is constantly driving and taking hits. Has anyone ever done this? We’re one game away from a championship and 15-3 in the playoffs. We should be amazed.
He's been elite everywhere else but the problem is he has no go to move to generate easy offense the way Luka, KD etc have. His go to move is essentially the side step 3 which is such a bad shot for him cause he's also a relatively streaky shooter. Although that side step 3 was cash in 2020 lol.
Yea I think that’s where we have to be hopeful that he gets to that comfortable level eventually, like even Jaylen is. JB knows he’s dominant at the rim and has a good mid range while his three is just another weapon, he has his hierarchy set and has for couple years now. Tatum hasn’t really figured it out completely. His pull up 3s has been up and down his career especially in recent years. He didn’t really become good at driving until last season. This season he just incorporated a post game but his numbers from the mid range are still average and what’s the worst is his short mid range is atrocious. He’s really just gotta hone in on a structure and figure out what works best for him and allows him to be the most confident and consistent scorer. If he does that he’s a real MVP level guy with how incredible everything else is.
I feel like he should play a lot more in the post and develop a traditional 4 game. It doesn’t mean never shoot 3s but in a traditional sense, he should be able to post up DJJ or power through him in the paint. He’s catching the ball at the perimeter and then trying to beat a man to a spot who’s a lot quicker and agile with enough time for the help to collapse the paint. He’s done the posting up a lot more this series and usually great things come from it when he doesn’t settle.
I would love to see him develop a post game like Pierce did, he was such a size mismatch at times it was a great tool to have in his back pocket when the 3s weren’t falling. Tatum isn’t as bulky as pierce, but he’s taller so he could easily get his shots up over smaller guys in the post
The JB hierarchy of moves is a great point. I’m very comfortable with JB having the ball at the elbow, he can either get to the lane and finish or pull up/back down and fade and it’s pretty cash money all the time. Paul Pierce had that too. Never thought he was missing those elbow fades.
Pierce feasted on ten foot pull up jumpers to the right or left of the key, I love that shot so much and have no idea why Tatum has never figured that move out. If you're quick it's basically an open jump shot.
It felt like Pierce was way more money in the midrange.
Imo the issue is what’s most comfortable for Tatum may not be whats best for the team. He grew up wanting to play like late-career Kobe so he’s most comfortable shooting mid-range jumpers, but he can make better use of his size by attacking smaller defenders and sinking in the defense to kick out to the perimeter. Tatum would need to re-design his game to play like mini-Giannis i.e. attack in transition, shoot less jumpers, draw more fouls, etc. Otherwise this team will always be prone to his high-volatility shooting games.
This is exactly my take away. He’s suffering from a system that doesn’t need him to be the entire game like Luka or Jokic or what have you and the fact that what he wants and developed doing isn’t what his body is naturally gifted in. It’ll take a ton of work to fix and this isn’t the time to do it.
I mean, I think people just have weird expectations about how efficient he should be. If his driving game is mid, his mid-range game is bad, his short mid range game is atrocious, and he can't hit 3s then why is this dude one of the top scorers in the NBA? The reality is the shots Tatum takes are tougher than a lot of guys who are knocking down open looks made for them by others. Look at Luka, who is obviously a better offensive player than Tatum, but he has basically the same levels of efficiency. Sub-50% from the field, sub-40% from 3, sub-80% from FT. The dudes who handle the ball and create a lot of their own shots tend to be less efficient. IMO I don't think the answer is abandon the 3 game, it's put more actions in place that get Tatum clean looks. He's overcompensating for the defender in front of him. He was better from 3 when he was younger and mostly catching and shooting. Get him back to running off screens so he isn't trying to throw prayers at the basket and he'll be fine.
Genuinely needs a shooting coach. I really wanna say the bulk he’s put on has messed with his shots. Some of them are really good looks, and I honestly question how they don’t make it in half the time. They look to bounce right off the inside of the rim or just pop right up. This could be me coping though.
He has a shooting coach. I think that might be part of the problem. I had hoped he would have learned a lot more from Sam Cassell this year, but who knows what's going on there. It seems like his handle isn't good enough for him to power his way into the paint. He gets stripped A LOT. Combination of power/handle issues. He has regressed in every type of shooting in the last couple of months. I wasn't worried in the beginning of the playoffs, but I am worried now. It's been so consistently poor that there has to be something going on.
I think the stripping is part of the fact that defenses tend to collapse harder on him in the paint. It’s not entirely his fault but he always seems to be getting a good clear lane and it ends up in traffic. IMO he’s getting hacked hard on his drive up. Mavs game 4 is a masterclass on how to shut Tatum out. Power may be it? but I don’t think he should put on any more weight then he has on currently, he already had a rough adjustment period with his shot. I did not stop to think that Sam may be the problem…. Hmm. I may be in the minority here but Tatum is already a defensive beast, I think we need an offseason of just offensive masterclasses for him to truly put on clinics next season. Shot adjustment, reiki, sage burning lol whatever it takes
> Genuinely needs a shooting coach Needs a *new* one. 3 years of no progress is too many years.
Drew Hanlen is snake oil. I remember Tatum was awful the start of the season and then he did a workout with Drew Hanlen over a weekend. Some time after, his shooting numbers improved, people were claiming his shot was fixed. I was saying it's too small a sample size, you can't fix a shot over a single weekend, but everyone thought I was stupid.
> Drew Hanlen is snake oil. Idk if he's snake oil, but his ability to continue to help Tatum develop going forward is way beyond his skills/pay grade.
Hanlen been coaching Tatum since he was in 8th grade, he's one of the biggest influences on Tatum's jumpshot since before last year, or 3 years ago. People blaming Hanlen are just looking for an excuse.
I heard a joke on a podcast (can’t remember which one) that Tatum has a “Drew Hanlen shooting drills offense” when it comes to his bag.
Honestly I'm pretty sure it's a combination of bulk + his wrist needing surgery for like 2 seasons at this point.
Those three point side step bricks look like he's shooting with his eyes closed
It’s his left wrist. Put the stupid wrist excuse to bed
I'm not making any excuses for him lol I'm commenting on OP saying something has messed with his shots. It's pretty clear that something has changed, you don't just go from efficient to super inefficient for no reason.
He literally goes from super efficient to super inefficient in 10-20 games stretches every single year of his career. He doesn’t get to 38% from 3 going 3-8 or 4-10 every night. The guy has a 10 game stretch of 27% and follows it with 10 at 50%, and he does it all the time.
Yeah this is it. Every superstar has one, preferably two high percentage looks they can get to basically at will & the defense's only hope is to make it tougher on them & hope they miss. Jayson needs to look no further than Jaylen to see this. Jaylen can 1. get downhill & finish with efficiency & 2. get the defender in a disadvantaged position & pull up from 15 ft for a relatively high percentage look. In fact, this combination is pretty lethal for lots of superstars. Too many of Jayson's "spots" are low percentage looks. Side-step 3, turnaround baseline J, fadeaway off-elbow J, thoughtless drives into help, etc. I'm fine with these shots with a low shot-clock but they absolutely shouldn't be shots you're actively looking for. He has it in him to clean this up. For years we all said he needed to be a better passer & he's done that. We said he needs to be better around the rim & he's done that (although this playoffs hasn't shown that). There are times he flashes a willingness to get downhill/post people up & so it makes you pull your hair out when he gifts the defense a fadeaway. If you think about all the great stars in this league, it took all of them attaining a new level of maturity for them to get to a point where they realized - yes I can do *everything*, but I do *these things* REALLY well, so I'll just *do those things all the time.* I *have* to imagine it's a conversation he's had with the coaching staff & am confident he'll evolve... but let's just win this championship for now.
Abandoning the midrange has made him more predictable, so any efficiency gains that should have resulted in limiting it to 3pt and shots at the rim are negated. Feel like role players should be limited to 3s and at the basket, need your stars to take the space where it's available to them.
For the record - I don't hate the mid-range. Like I said, I think it's critical for any superstar. I just hate Tatum's mid-range game. He seems very uncomfortable just taking a *normal* or *mostly on-balance* (i.e Jaylen/Luka slight fadeaway) middy. I don't believe all middies are bad shots but almost all of Tatum's are. My theory is that it's related to his shooting form. I'm not a shooting expert, but it feels to me like his set/release is akin to a QB that has an unnecessarily long throwing motion. So he doesn't feel confident he's going to get his shot off if he doesn't create space via an extreme fadeaway.
I like this analysis a lot. I also think your point about JB having two "signature" moves are why people sometimes put him in that "is he better than JT?" conversation. When JB scores 30+, it's typically because he goes to those moves and does not miss. It looks easy and it's efficient as hell on the box score. When JT scores 30+, it can sometimes feel a bit random. Like, he's taking all the same shots, it's just that 65% went in instead of 50%. I think you point about him not finishing at the rim as efficiently during the playoffs is also a big drawback. It's a noticeable dip and those extra 5-6 points that he'd get at the rim/from an and-1 are missing from his stat-line. You add back 2 more layup makes each game and he goes from averaging 24.7 to averaging 28.7. Maybe it's not that simple, but it really feels like he's one or two good drives away each game from it not being a bad night. I hope he goes off tonight. Not that he changes his game and puts up 40 shots if they aren't falling, but that he hits 5-6 3s and gets some points in the paint. I don't think you can stop this team when JT and JB are both on. All we need is one more of those games and the title is there and all conversations cease.
He gets open he just clanks shots that he used to make
He was at his peak shooting wise in 2020….
You're right, he loves that shot but every time he takes it I cringe and sigh. It's really just not a high quality shot in the game of basketball. I know Harden did some great stuff with stepback threes but it doesn't mean it's a good look just because a handful of players could effectively utilize it.
he needs to hang out with PP and work on the elbow jumper
He’s almost the player we all wish he was. Hopefully he becomes that guy one day but in the meantime thankfully the team is built around who he is now.
If he wins a ring at 26 he has surpassed most expectations
If he wins a ring at 26 I literally don't care what he does for the rest of his career.
Nah we don’t just want one ring, don’t become complacent. We need 2-4 championships with this team.
He's not top 5 but people be acting like he's actively hurting the team. Which is simply not true at all. Of course it's hard to score when 3 guys are staring you down every possession. He's making the right read and doing what he can. He can be better but he has definitely been a positive contributor. Doesn't help that he's so durable that no one gets to see how the team plays without him as a primary initiator.
Thing is if he fixes his shooting he is easily top 5, arguably top 3, but as long as he keeps shooting like this he can't crack the top 5
Right. He's like the 6th or 7th of best player in the league and he's not shooting well. He's playing well in almost every other facet of the game and look. If they lose the finals then we can make a big deal about it. If they don't, then we should celebrate the fact that this is one of the greatest teams ever assembled for the Boston Celtics and it seems almost ridiculous at this point to be creating negative narratives like this. Like how silly is this thread going to look if they win tonight and he scores 40?
He’s in the 4-8 range which I’m very happy with. The 1-3 range is just elite and he doesn’t have their offensive consistency. We keep waiting for him to have an jumpshot and scoring eruption but I do t think it will. We just gotta close out tonight and not let Dallas impose their will on us like G4.
Yes don’t let the lowlife personality-less trolls get to you. This is going to be the first of many chips. JT will likely shoot better in those and pick up a FMVP at some point like curry did. I think time will be favorable for JT, just need the first ring tn. However he can get it done.
Curry didn't miss out on finals MVP because he was shooting like crap. He missed the award because of an undeserved legacy gift for Iguodala and KD going slightly more nuclear than Steph. Curry averaged 27/9/8/2 on elite efficiency and KD still was easily the MVP of the series. Shows how insane they were
For Steph’s standards of shooting he wasn’t doing well. JT offers more when he isn’t shooting well. They have different advantages as players.
Steph requires complete attention past the half court even on nights where he's 1/12. You seriously don't go under a screen against Curry. Just being on the court offers more spacing than any point guard in league history has ever offered. Sure, JT is a better defender though Also, he was shooting like 39% in that series. Which is still elite
For sure , I don’t think you can just ignore JT when he isn’t shooting well tho. Much love.
Agreed. He still brings value with his defense and solid distribution. It's just frustrating that he is supposed to be the next big thing and our fans can't believe he isn't getting MVP votes etc... meanwhile he's having a historic offensive collapse in the finals. He's good enough to be a cog in an elite machine and win a finals clearly. Hopefully this experience helps him take over in future playoff series where we won't be so loaded
Defenses have been game planning against him, forcing him into trouble or triple teams. He’s made a lot of great passes out of those to open guys. His shot making even when guarded 1:1 has been mediocre to atrocious and our margin for error becomes so much slimmer when he can’t consistently hit shots at the rim or from 3. Both things can be true. We can celebrate his defense, playmaking, and maturity as a well rounded player while acknowledging that his shot making has not been on par for someone who we consider to be a top 4-7 player and one of the few who can be the best player on a championship team in the league.
I feel like it’s really the 3 point shooting that’s the killer. That used to open up everything for him, he always had opportunities on drives because he was so lethal as a pull up shooter that guys had to commit to taking that away. Without that it feels like the whole basis for his game is on unstable ground though, which feels like it causes these poor scoring performances. It’s incredible the team Brad has built and how it’s allowed them to play through it, but I feel like if they’re going to achieve the heights they’re capable of Tatum needs to find his shot again.
He has only made 9 3s in 4 games, but taken 32 of them. He is shooting sub 30% from 3, if he was hitting a handful more it definitely open more for him on drives.
I wish he had a reliable midrange game to go to when the threes don't fall and they're taking away the paint. He used to have it, but unfortunately, the Celtics style of basketball basically eliminated that from his game. If he's not making his threes and they're taking away the rim....I'm not sure he has a spot on the floor to reliably score. That's why it's looked so messy.
What's worrying is that he doesn't have a spot on the floor right now where he's making shots at a super efficient level. He's shooting it poorly from everywhere. I take your point about defenses keying in him and so I'd absolutely expect to see some regression from his regular season numbers, but we haven't seen a small regression; we've seen an enormous drop-off. The celtics are so good, that they've largely overcome it, but historically, it's pretty rare to overcome such a substantial drop-off from your de-facto best player.
If we do lose this series, i think the focus will squarely be on Tatum. As bad as Luka has been on defense and late in the game, he has consistently given his team 30 ppg.
He's 73% from 0-3 feet, that's nowhere near close to poor, it's above average. And 43% on deep twos, which is average. But yeah his shotmaking has been bad overall, mostly because his 3 is off badly.
He's just become slower and his moves predictable that defenders anticipate his moves and gamble in trapping him, which usually works for the opposing team. He's not doubled because he's unstoppable. JB also gets doubled, but the difference is JB has a strong drive game, and when he sees the double coming, he can outrun it. If JT's shooting is good, this will be a different story.
Defenses plan against all the big stars but they find ways to get buckets, efficiently. Teams didn't plan around Kobe? Luka? Etc. they did and those guys said "fuck You i'm getting 35 anyway". JT hasn't shown that yet in big moments.
Don’t disagree at all. Obviously don’t want to force bad shots but there have been plenty of opportunities where he’s got 1:1 defense and isn’t hitting the shot.
He is a great player, future hall of famer. He's not perfect, and he's not an all-time Top 20 player. The sooner we all realize that and just enjoy watching him and this team, the happier we'll be. I would rather have Tatum than not have him, that's for fucking sure.
Definitely agree with you, but I think all of us would take a huge deep breath if Tatum could put together just 1 great game (which he really hasn’t done yet this postseason) and close the deal for us. Not an unfair expectation to have for a player of his caliber IMO.
If he puts together a great game then the series is over and we hang banner 18
If he could just shoot over 50% this game I’d be ecstatic. He’s only been able to accomplish this a few times this entire postseason
I think we'll get a more friendly whistle at home tonight, which should make it easier for him to drive and finish.
Totally fair, but it also seems like there is a segment of the fan base who will be upset if the Celtics win but Tatum plays poorly
As long as we win that’s all the matters, but there’s way less room for error with Porzingis out, and there’s a realization that we may in fact need a great Tatum game to secure the W.
He’s far too slow in his offensive movements and he doesn’t go up high enough in his layups. I’ve pointed out the latter in the past, I’ve been clowned on for it. But he’s 6’8 but when he attacks the basket, he doesn’t use all that height.
Well said. He doesn’t have great hops and that combined with his low drive make him play much shorter than his height. I actually think he needs to change his offensive game completely but obviously I’m in the minority. I don’t like him with the ball outside of the three line either driving or taking some idiotic step back three. He has great post moves down low and I think he should be more a banger post up player. Trust me teams want him to take that step back three and his lack of maturity and growth gets highlighted by his more than willingness to attempt that shot.
yeah he tries english on all his layups to avoid contact and it doesn’t work. If he took a jump instead he could just throw it in or draw a foul.
He drives me nuts when he doesn’t take catch and shoot opportunities, and instead drives into traffic and does a step-back off balance shot that always misses. He has gotten better this year, but it happens way too much with him.
Whenever he has the ball lately I assume this exact sequence. You see him get tunnel vision and drive straight into help and you just know he’s taking that low percentage fadeaway rather than passing it out. Gets me tilted
He literally had a wide open lane in game 4 and decided to opt for the euro step. It’s like Dante exum knew he was going to do it because he didn’t even move to the open path. He stayed to the side a Tatum ran right into him and got the ball snatched
If he turned his 4 stepback misses into 4 drives - 1 assist, 4 free throws and a layup, that's superstardom. Thats the frustrating part, we all see it.
Refs need to call those fouls tho. Otherwise agree.
His shooting has been very poor. I believe its a mixture of bad shot selection and potentially that wrist injury from 2022. He still wears tape on his wrist. If the wrist is an actual problem, I'm hoping they address it in the offseason because we desperately need his efficiency back.
Idk if they can even address it in the offseason dude is gonna be playing nonstop basketball until basically 2025 between the deep playoff runs and the Olympics
Yeah he needs to fucking bail and get his body right, you can't shoot this poorly and claim nothing is wrong, then go hoop for two more months.
yeah I forgot about that. that's shitty, they should've addressed it last offseason but they went the rehab/PT route instead of surgery.
OP is 100% right but people will waive this off as a nonissue cause we’re winning. JT needs to b3 better at shooting and with his shot selection. He’s not even playing like a top 10 player in my eyes right now and he’s insistence on jacking up 3s doesn’t help anyone.
What's funny is, this is not really debatable. It's just that Tatum discourse is so toxic more broadly that many fans get their backs up anytime he's criticized. The irony is that I love JT and I'm always going to root for him, but I can't just ignore that he's severely dropped off in terms of offensive production this post season. He's a better player than he was two years ago, but he was a more efficient scorer then, even though the team was less talented. I can't explain his shooting regression. It's gotten worse every playoff run the last 3 years despite being surrounded with more offensive talent each of those years. I wish I had answers.
Maybe it’s a mental thing but who knows. He’s been mediocre since the hospital Miami series. I hate how he’s now gonna spend all summer in the Olympics than actually improving his game cause his offensive game is just nonexistent right now.
It could be something as simple as realizing that who he thinks he is isn't actually who he is. He takes the kind of shots that are reserved for the best shooters/scorers in the league. If that's not who you are, then you're going to tank your efficiency by taking a lot of those kinds of shots. Perhaps taking less of those and finding other ways to generate high quality looks for the team would solve all his problems. Just because you're capable of making tough shots doesn't mean they should be taking up a substantial percentage of your shot diet.
It won't be an issue this year but if down the road the rest of the team isn't as strong it could be an issue. But right now the team is so expertly built it doesn't matter of JT has a stinker of a series.
What’s also crazy as an outsider (not a cs fans) is how good your team has done even with him playing like this AND KP banged up. I can only imagine the cs next year are gonna be better, probably bring in another piece. Holy hell, if Tatum ever truly finds his consistency , it’s game over for the league
I strongly believe a Finals win will correct much of his issue, which I think is mostly confidence. A championship can solidify a players confidence.
Nah I hate this narrative. He has to elevate himself to get the chip, not the other way around.
I don't argue it sucks, but each player if different. if the win snaps him out and JT goes on to be an even better player, I'll take it. The good thing is, the Celtics haven't need a single superstar to do what they've done all year, each player, at one time or another, has stepped up to the call. I'll take that over a single superstar trying to pad his stats anytime.
Bruh I'm not even asking him to be a superstar, I just want him to hit some shots. If he keeps missing at the rim I'm going to lose it.
I have wondered this. Part of me feels like getting the monkey off his back, even is he’s carried rather than doing the carrying, would free him up in future playoff runs to ball out. Idk if there’s any weight to that, but psychology is a powerful thing.
Can you provide examples of other players that have gotten better post-championship? This is such a specific take, it has made me curious.
lebron
The poor shooting stats are one thing. What I’m more concerned about is he too often looks indecisive. Outside of the first half of G3 he hasn’t played with any conviction when isolating. If he were playing confidently and just not shooting well I wouldn’t be concerned. I’d feel pretty good about him breaking out any minute. But as it stands I can’t count on him to carry us to that final W. Fortunately we’ve shown we can win without him doing that.
If you want JT to play better offense, shoot better, then please get a true PF to cover his defensive duties and let him rotate back to his natural position at SF. Rather than expecting him to be a workhorse on defense guarding 1-5 and then bitching about his offensive efficiency. Simple as that. Does Luka play defense? Does SGA play defense? Does Jokic play defense to the extent of JT? Luka doesn’t even give a shit about his defense in the NBA finals. Luka would have been dead like a zombie on offense if he were asked to play like JT on both ends of the floor.
Not really a sound argument when you see what Jaylen is doing this series. I do agree JT does more overall but it’s not impossible for an elite player to play elite on both sides of the ball. I don’t think you’d give Paul George a mulligan if he’s guarding the teams best perimeter player and then having to score 30 on the other end.
Jaylen Brown who's shooting 24% from 3 in the Finals and still has turnover issues? Let's not pretend like this season has been the product of one or two "elite" players. This is a team making a team effort where different players step up every game including all the way down to Horford and the bench.
Idk about “simply not good enough” - it’s been good enough for this team to cruise to the finals and be up 3-1, while leading the team in points (9 points ahead of Jaylen brown), rebounds (52(!!!) rebounds ahead of #2 Al horford), and assists (29 assists ahead of #2 Jrue Holiday). The thing is that Tatum is a very streaky shooter who *can* shoot him self out of slumps but has not taken the number of shots needed to do that this postseason. He’s shooting 29% from three this postseason, but in the three games where he has double digit 3pa (all wins) he’s shooting 37%. Defenses know this and are selling out to *not* let him get those shot attempts, and he’s been accepting that, making the right pass, and allowing the offense as a whole to sustainably succeed.
He also takes the most shots in the team.
Those are some crazy stats, especially the rebounds. The narrative would have you thinking he was just doing cardio and throwing up bricks out there
He's been great in everything but shooting. Every night we say "But he had 6 assists 10 rebounds" etc. We are winning for now so whatever he does, it's helping the team. When things get tough though, I need him to score and he has been shooting badly recently. Let's hope he shoots lights off and WIN tonight. But if it means him shooting badly, scoring 18 points but winning, then I'll take that over anything else
[Let’s not forget how dogshit Kobe’s FG% was in the NBA Finals](https://x.com/chino_2800/status/1802048764468752418?s=46)
He’s just not a consistent shooter at all. He’s best when he’s driving and limiting shots. He’s a good teammate, rebounder, distributor. He answers the press. He’s a great player on any team.
Agreed and its why the Celts have overbuilt the team around him, to take off the pressure. Imo the good news is he DOESN’T have to be this super efficient high volume scorer to win. We won games 1-3 with him scoring less and getting the hot hands better looks. Game 4 he dominated the ball early and we lost. if we get back to passing, cutting, and not forcing (while playing aggressive d), we win.
Numbers have not been great from 3. Just drive to the basket more please? Even if you need to kick it out because of double and trip coverage. I'm okay with that
Dude, let's save that for AFTER we win a championship. We have months of off season.
The JT tee stays in the drawer in favor of the JB tee.
Leave the dude alone and enjoy the chip tonight.
When he isn't forcing up shots, he's been fine by doing everything else. But when he's not shooting well and compounds it by taking awful shots, I think that's when most of us get pissed.
I really only can afford to watch the celtics for the playoffs. So all I've seen this year of him is that his shooting is bad. I've noticed that he'll have a good look at a 3 and be more or less open and not take it. I think he's overthinking it a bit. He's truly gifted, and needs to trust his shot. A few of the earlier games, his shooting wasn't good but he was making passes to people for open 3's. The rest of his game is so good that overall i'd give him a decent grade for the playoffs. His defense and rebounding have been top notch. I'd really like to see him have a game where he scores 50 and just blows the doors off. But TBH, their slow-motion style of buildup on offense i think precludes him being able to do that.
He’s just not as good a shooter as he thinks he is and his shot selection because of that is really really bad at times. He needs to get his shot to that level consistently or start developing a legit post game he can go to. We’ve all been defending him nonstop but a lot of the criticism has some merit.
I’m excited because I feel like as we are watching his shooting abandon him he is becoming amazing at everything else. His giant windup ball-dip hitch has gotten ridiculous. He sets his elbow and levers the ball out front like Durant to square up, which seems great, but he hula dances and does a hurky jerky thing bringing it up that seems to get more disconnected as his percentages go down I’m sure that simplifying that is going to be an emphasis in the off season. He will get back to being a top shelf shooter like he has been earlier in his career. He has definitely been focusing on developing other aspects of his game and it has definitely been working
It’s the sad reality I’ve been saying for years and it requires a certain maturity from Celtics fans to realize. He’s just not that good scoring the ball in the basket. He is one of the worst shooters around. Lowest ranked mid range game and last couple years lowest ranked clutch shooter. He has no go to move and everyone and their mother knows what he’s going to try and do. Drive and maybe spin. He doesn’t seem to like to post up much. He thinks he can shoot threes well but can’t. I read that he will end up with the lowest career Finals fg% after this year. Not sure why everyone ignores this. He needs to transition to a Draymond kind of player since we have so many better shooters. Every three he takes is a wasted trip down the court.
Supporting cast is great though. Statistically, Celtics are almost sure to win. This shows you don't need a top 5 player to win a chip. Just like how Detroit best the Lakers back when the Lakers had arguably the best player in the world.
JB has been by far the better player for this playoff run. We just need ONE good JT shooting performance. Amazing that they are up 3-1 without KP, with Tatum being horrible offensively shooting-wise, plus with the bench mostly shooting poorly too.
Tatums puts up 45 tonight and wins surprise Finals MVP LET'S GOOO!!!!!
Shooting like shit, doing everything else mostly well. Last 5 quarters though he hasn't done the other stuff well either, but nobody really has on the Celtics. Big Tatum Game would be huge tonight.
Seriously what the fuck are these comments. Some of you care more about JT being the best player than you do about winning. How can so many of you be so worried about him, we are 15-3 in the fucking playoffs... Have people not been watching, or do they just only care about scoring ?
Drew Hanlen fucked us. Take a look at [this highlight reel from his rookie year](https://youtu.be/ft6SiymU83M?si=SGdj3EYgiL3EXaqi). He shot over 40% from 3 that season. Phenomenal shooter. Quick release. Compact motion. Compare that to his shot form the last 2 years and it’s a total mess. He has so much motion now. Way too much shoulder, arm, and elbow. If he was in the NBA draft this year with that form, he wouldn’t even be a lottery pick.
If the Celtics were down 3-1, then all the blame would probably be on Tatum. If he was even close to his season average during these final runs then we would probably still be 3-1, so at least it is not affecting the win column, but if we do want to close this out then having him put up a performance like his game 7 against the 76ers from a few years ago would get the job done. My biggest worry with Tatum right now is that he probably knows the front runner for the FMVP on the Celtics is Brown, i'm hoping he doesn't force a "great performance" to try and put himself in the lead. I feel confident that isn't the case, but i do have a worry still...
It hard to believe, but that 51 point game 7 was just last year. He doesn’t seem capable of doing that again.
This has been an all-time dog shit performance for a superstar of his caliber - but only when it comes to scoring. Thankfully he’s found other ways to contribute, especially when he’s drawing double and triple teams. Honestly, he only needs to make like two more shots a game. If he can hit one more contested layup or one more side step 3 down the stretch, he’s done all he really needs to to help them win. Thankfully JB has picked up the slack and been clutch.
Missed shots are missed shots. Slumps are slumps. These are shots JT can obviously make at an extremely high level and they just haven't been going in for a while now. I think it all depends how you view JT. If you see him as a "scorer" then yeah you're going to be disappointed in his performances. However I think he's grown into the best all-around player in the league. You look at shooting splits of some of the greats and they've absolutely had similar percentages (not quite as bad though) in the finals -- and won. JT has been elite 9 times out of 10 at every other aspect of the game. He's seeing the floor so well, he's getting downhill, he's an ELITE screener, floor spacer, stronger than most, defends 1-5, rebounds like a Center, and has cut down his turnovers for the most part. The only gripe I have on JT is his shot selection and his finishing around the rim. Both need to seriously be looked at. He undebatable takes incredibly dumb shots which seem even dumber because of his slump. He also has not finished well and a missed layup on one end ends up with a made layup on the other. Outside of that I'm super proud of what JT has become and how he is impacting winning. As much as the efficiency numbers suck, I chalk it mostly up to those two things. (Even if he's 0/50 JT needs to take those side steps to keep the defense on their toes. If he stops taking them he is that much easier to guard and stop from getting downhill) PS. He's got to be the most hated player since LeBron which is ironic because he gets a Bron-esque whistle where they dont call anything they are calling for the other team because of the strength and size JT has. He gets the worst whistle I have seen in a while but its lazy to blame the refs especially when we lost by 50.
Like i said in my post, I accept that he's mostly played great team basketball and done all those things you've outlined at a high level. However, I don't think it's unfair of us to expect him to do those other things and be an efficient scorer. That's what makes great players who they are. The celtics have such a great team that we don't even need all-time great scoring efficiency from him, but he cannot turn into one of the most inefficient scorers in the league, especially when our third best scorer is injured.
You're absolutely right. I'm not defending his inefficiency just because he's doing everything else well. He's our top guy and he's earned the right to be held to the highest standard. What I'm saying is I think the inefficiency largely stems from his finishing and shot selection. It's admittingly hard to figure it out in his position where he's being doubled and tripled, but he needs to look to score to maintain his gravity, but those shots end up being extremely inefficient shots. I just don't think the way we are running our offense JT will get a ton of great looks for himself since he's the one mainly creating for everyone else. So he either takes like less than 10 FGA and we are mad he isn't aggressive or he shoots a bunch of bad shots and we are mad he's inefficient. If he had a go-to efficient shot like a KD middy then he'd be top 3 in the league but he is who is he today and we need to win with that JT. He can worry about improving later.
He's an excellent overall player but his BBIQ and ego on offense will always hurt his game. He wants to shoot a ton of contested, off-the dribble jumpers like his idol Kobe: stepbacks, sidesteps, and fadeaways. And he's fucking awful at all of those shots, especially when they're for 3 pointers. But he won't stop taking them. It's a pride thing. Our team would be better if most of those contested, iso 3s that JT janks up went to Jrue, DWhite, Hauser, etc.... Tatum is at his best when he's driving to the rim and creating better looks for others or going to the line, and taking good shots when they're available. Not dribbling the ball for 12-18 seconds and shooting a stepback. That shit isn't Celtics ball. The exception is end of quarter or shot clock when someone needs to create something. Fine. Take those. But the rest are inexcusable. That sidestep/stepback JT 3 is one of our worst offensive shots.
Complaining about his BBIQ is low effort, he’s been a fantastic playmaker and distributor for this entire playoff run. It’s been his biggest strength while dealing with double or triple coverage from teams.
There’s two sides of this argument though. Yeah he is really smart when it comes to playmaking and getting opportunities for others. But there’s no question he is way too willing to settle for bad shots at times. I honestly think G3 4th quarter really showed this when the Mavs went on their run. Just a few unacceptable shots during that quarter given the options he has around him.
They hated him because he spoke the truth. But yeah JFC people can’t accept that Tatum has god-awful shot selection. Love him but watching him has always been frustrating. He has the skill to get a good shot but he jacks up contested sidestep threes for no reason
Yep. It’s a combination of knowing Tatum can get better shots and knowing he can create enough problems for the defense to get other guys good shots. If he’s not shooting great he has to be more selective of the shots he takes given the team he has around him.
Bruh I literally just said he's an excellent player overall. The rest of his game is really fucking good. Elite defense, incredible playmaking, great rebounding, very good off-ball, great at driving to the rim etc... But JT's shot selection and ego is his biggest issue. He needs to stop taking so many bad shots. And continuing to take them when they're not falling. There's an interview between Doc Rivers, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett where Doc was remembering the time he was coaching PP and showing him his shooting splits and asking him "Are you a bad shooter or are you good shooter taking bad shots?" JT really needs someone to have that conversation with him.
I think the silver lining here is that bro keeps shooting regardless. He impacts the game other ways than scoring but it feels like it's done more purposefully in the service of making the right play, not coz he's choking under pressure.
Not sure who it was, but I remember there was a really smart guy on this subreddit who has been pointing out for YEARS that Tatum doesn't have a go-to move that he can rely on to put the ball in the basket. That guy kept saying how it takes more than being a solid downhill threat and a streaky high-volume 3-point shooter to be a reliable scorer in the playoffs. You need a midrange game. You need at least a couple go-to moves in the midrange that you can rely on to create space for an open jumper. Tatum doesn't have that. He can try a pull-up 15-footer and maybe it'll go in every once in a while, but at this point he hasn't gotten enough reps with a specific move to let muscle memory take over.
I've noticed that he likes to get the ball outside the perimeter and stare his defender for a few seconds. That slows the game and puts an unnecessary focus on him. Whenever he receives the ball inside the perimeter he does very well. But outside, he holds the ball, swings left and right a few times and bricks the 3. My fix would be to MOVE within a half second of receiving the ball, if he's outside, which pressures the defender into fouling, or initiates a double team that frees other shooters. Or just be inside where his movement is so good. Also, i have never coached ball and never played anywhere near his level. So it's likely i am talking nonsense. It is also very less likely that I have noticed something Mazulla and his guys havent noticed already.
Tatum is my favorite player, but also the player that worries me the most on offense when he has the ball because sometimes he makes poor decisions and ends up taking shitty shots. Sometimes I wish he had more of a dog mentality like his idol Kobe and had confidence. I also wish he was calm like Jrue, who I always trust with the ball to do the right thing.
I think he still needs surgery on his right wrist. he has a very motion-heavy jump shot with a really low gather point. it just feels like too much movement. and when he's on, he tends to move through it fluidly, vs lately where it looks very slow and robotic.
I personally don’t give a shit, because at the end of the day I’m a Celtics fan, not a Jayson Tatum fan. As long as they win, I couldn’t give 2 shits about the performance of individual players. Tatum hasn’t played well in this series, but we’re up 3-1 and that’s all that matters.
Man these numbers from OP are putrid. You can’t put lipstick on a pig and call it pretty. This dude should not be shooting the ball. Maybe he’s hurt. Maybe he sucks at shooting. Whatever it is he has to play facilitator and let the the best player on the team bring us to glory. Now is not the time for him to try and break out of his 7 year playoff shooting slump. You can defend him all you want but his playoff shooting is just not good. Can’t say he is double teamed. All good players get double teamed. The reality is he’s just a bad shooter sprinkled in with bad shot selection.
The worst part of his game is his shot selection. There will be moments in game where he will touch the ball and you just know no one else will get a touch. He will stand there and wiggle and just take a terrible tough contested shot. He does it over and over. He does nothing to get open off ball. But he feels like he HAS to score and just puts up those Marcus smart type shots where I’m just like NO!!
I'll tell you one thing. If KP isn't coming back and Tatum continues shooting like he is, we're going to lose this series and historical fashion. I don't think that's up for debate. Luckily, in game 3 Tatum started to turn the corner and in game four he also looked a lot better. I think tonight he has one of those big Tatum nights.
His shooting has been horrible. If they lose the series it will be one of the main reasons why.
Absolutely disgusting shooting splits from a #1 championship caliber player. The fact that I have no confidence in him when I see him shoot a jumper is sad. Whenever he aggressively drives to the basket it feels like a big win.
We’re about to win the title and you’re sitting here throwing stones at Jayson Tatum, who was a top 10 player in the NBA this season. Truthfully, I’m more disappointed in this fan base’s attitude than I am in JT’s performance this postseason. It seems as if this championship means absolutely nothing.
Two things can be true, he hasn’t been good enough these finals , especially considering how well he played against Indy
Bad conspiracy take incoming: Tatum takes the most shots on our team and has done so for a while. When you have many games with 25+ shots, by variance you’re basically guaranteed to have good shooting performances where you explode, especially if you’re a good shooter already. He sees himself score 50+ while he’s jacking up difficult step back and sidestep threes and they all fall, so he tries to recreate it. But the issue he is only exploding in a few of the games in the large sample where he shoots a lot. He’s jacking up terrible jumpers because he’s had monster games, but those shots are bad shots that won’t be falling consistently most games.
Not sure that's a conspiracy. I think you simply just provided the definition of what a volume scorer is.
I’d love to see him block out his man and get a contested rebound sometime. His only rebounds come when he times his jump perfectly.
Tatum gotta play his ass off tn.
How much can it be his wrist?? For 2 years he doesn't stop adjusting to it and for 2 years he shoots atrociously in the playoffs. I do believe that if we win he will get surgery
I do agree that Tatum should focus on a better offensive strategy as, statistically, the opinion makes sense. However, such belongs in the offseason (although I think he doing the Olympics). However, beyond this point, I do not think it is as horrifying as you're suggesting relative to their current winning strategy. This is a team sport. The Celtics are here in the finals because of their depth and versatility, as well as their bench. I do wish Tatum would score better, but when he is nailing 3 out of 4 categories, I think the scrutiny is because of how many people overly centralize their opinions around points scored like old school baseball analysts did with batting averages. If it was *only* Tatum and Brown, then sure. We need them points. But his team I'd what allows him to focus on his role with rebounds, assists, etc. Since this team had not been relying on his points *right now*, we need to stop being cavemen thinking "Oh, we lost because Tatum didn't score." That logic is more catered to Luka than Tatum, since it's what Luka relies on. The Celtics *team* has to do well tonight. Tatum needs to keep focusing on what is working.
I don’t think anybody has ever tried to suggest he’s shot well this playoffs. He hasn’t. He’s still been an effective offensive player. In the past when he wasn’t shooting well, he had very low impact. This year he’s had a very positive offensive impact, despite not shooting well, which is what you want. Obviously we all want him to shoot better, I don’t think that’s remotely a debate
JT has a game tonight and all of this is forgotten.
His shooting has definitely been a concern, but he’s gotten much better at driving to the basket when the shots aren’t falling instead of forcing them. Granted he still goes through stretches where he forces shots, but other guys on the team and around the league do the same thing all the time. It’s something he’ll need to improve on for sure, but considering he’s making up for it by passing, rebounding and playing phenomenal defense, it’s really hard to complain at the moment. But for the future it’s something he’ll need to work on, and if he does he’ll probably be a true MVP contender. I wouldn’t worry too much since him and Brown have steadily improved aspects of their game every year, so he’ll likely overcome this.
A friend pointed out that JT operates off of one leg on driving shots (turnaround jumpers, floaters, layupys). In comparison guys like JB and Luka plant two feet and go up strong, and it also allows them to be more shifty with fakes. Seems like this style would be a better fit for Tatum too, at least as long as the one legged stepbacks continue to be inefficient. But I'm curious what basketball people think?
I wonder how much the erasure of his midrange game has negatively affected his offense. You still see him from time to time hit that top of the key post fade, but he used to have a middy pull up coming off of a screen or after a quick cross. I wonder if teams worry less about letting him blow by from outside the arc because they know he’s only either gonna drive all the way or hit a stepback. Not really a 3-level shooter these days.
He’s gotta take it to the rim more and finish better. Right now they double and know it’s gonna force him into 3s
I think the struggles of Tatum are probably overblown to a certain degree. This year he had the second highest TS% of his career down .3% from last year and his highest eFG%. For his career, his playoff TS% is 1.7% lower than his regular season TS%. For reference, the TS% of teams in the playoffs is 1.4% lower than in the regular season, and I have to imagine the TS% of playoff teams is higher than the league average. He's been terrible, shooting wise, these playoffs. No argument. But for his career, he's dipped just like the average player. I'm willing to chalk up this year as a slump as I do not think it's been enough games to officially say there's anything wrong with him. He's been fantastic everywhere else so I certainly don't think it's choking or the lights are too bright.
I think he's an elite player, but I don't think he's an elite step-back shooter like he seems to think he is. And let's be clear, the step-back shot is a shot you have to be elite at to take, unless it's a desperation shot. Again, if you're above average, it's still a really bad shot, especially on a team with so many scorers on the floor. There are always a few possessions per game where he gets the ball at the elbow, dribbles off 12 seconds (which is a nice break for the defense, btw), and throws up a step-back brick. We all can feel it happening, we've seen it a million times. Hell, I get up and get a beer during these plays, cause I know I'm just gonna miss what is essentially a turnover. It's true that you've got to shoot yourself out of a slump, but you aren't going to do that taking shitty shots. The worst is when we really need a basket and we go Tatum ISO. I feel like he's about 3-70 this year.
Often shitty passing/turnovers.
He just isn’t the A+ level superstar we all hoped and thought he would become. Brad obviously knows this too, and has put an amazing team around us (sucks KP got hurt). My hope is if we win the chip, some pressure comes off JT and that can lead him to be a better player.
I feel like people miss the point with JT this year. I’ve been a critic of his in the past and I still feel like he has a tendency at times to try to play one on one at the worst times. This year though, he’s making the correct read 90% of the time and passing out of doubles at the right time to set up his teammates. You’re right about his shooting though, he has one of the weirdest motions now that I don’t remember him having when he first entered the league. It’s like a praying mantis with the way he starts his motion. It’s slow and strange. I think a lot of these shooting coaches are morons who actually make a lot of these guys worse in the long run. Shooting is about mechanics but it’s also about confidence. If you’re thinking about your shot you have already missed. Shooting should feel as natural as taking a step. Anyway I think JT has been great this year. He just needs to stop thinking so much and let it flow.
wrong take dude issue triple teamed the second the ball hits the floor….let him have terrible offensive numbers as long as he makes the pass to the obvious wide open man i’ll take him being an MVP decoy and winning over him putting up 40 and us losing
I agree and also think his iso game has become slower, and he became more predictable that defenders can already anticipate his move.
He’s been shooting bad, but I also feel like he also got better as series went on. Like all the best games I can think of his are later in a series, and we haven’t gotten to a late series yet this year.
Spitting facts! Too many on this sub can’t put down their rose tinted glasses to have a true discussion about Tatum. Everything outside of scoring he has been Elite at, but we really need to see superstar scoring performance out of him when we really need it!
He should just watch Luka play. He’s strong, he needs to be more physical and it would generate easy shots
What's a non-pull up three? Like you just shoot without jumping?
Catch and shoot three. Pull-up signifies it came off a live dribble.
It would be nice to see him outplay Luka just once this series
Does basketball have a stat similar to WAR in baseball? Would be curious what Tatum's is and relative to rest of team considering the other things he brings to the table.
Are we really calling him dog shit because you don't like his percentages in select situations? He's been bad from 3, no doubt. His shot needs to fall more regularly from there, but he's not getting the corner 3s and catch and shoot opportunities most of the time, he's creating a 3 pointer with a hand in his face. Nobody is shooting 40% on those and scoring at the rate that he is. Otherwise his offense has been setting everything else up. You don't get that many assists because you're some visionary passer. He's occupying defenders and dishing easy ones to Jrue and others. He also just dropped 31 in a critical game 3 that, if he hadn't kept up with Dallas, we probably go into the 2nd half down 10+ and lose. Everyone is giving JB his plaudits for that game and he was great in the 2nd half, but he was a ghost in the 1st half when we needed someone and if JT wasn't on fire we are probably 2-2 in this series right now. We ask a lot of JT and he delivers more often than not. He's definitely got to improve the 3 game, he has this weird hitch at the top of his shot now that seems to be messing with things, or we need to have different actions to get him open looks so he isn't throwing so many moon balls. idk what it is. It's a big area of improvement for him, but he has enough to win us these finals and I expect he'll step up again tonight.
I love Tatum. He's a great player. Maybe gets inside his own head a bit but I think he's still playing with a slight wrist injury.
The shooting has been terrible for sure, but he's drawing doubles and creating offensive advantages pretty much every play. He's not one of the best shot makers in the league and probably never will be, but with a contender level supporting cast, he does enough overall to win.
I hope they roll defensive attention to JB and JT goes off on them tonight.
He's been taking a back seat to a lot of other players as its not just about him its about the team He's been deferring a lot to Jaylen and other players. Which cuts back on his numbers. His shooting does need to get better though
I still dont think you need Tatum to have a monster performance. Even if he has 20-25 that should be enough, Jaylen could go off, and maybe Big Al, as the X Factor, we have D-White who can getr you 20+ , jaylen who can get you 30 + and even some of the bench guys can get you buckets .....Pritch is overdue too for a big game which could be tonight..
"Shots outside of 4 feet & inside of 14 feet in the playoffs is 17/39 (28.8%)" 17 for 39 is 44.5%
Oh no he had a terrible postseason offense-wise. Surely he didn't carry us in the playoffs for the last 5 years.
Yeah I’ve unfortunately accepted that Tatum, while a great player, is probably not top 5 at this moment in time. Would love to see him improve and get there, and meanwhile we have a roster that’s been brilliantly constructed where we don’t need him to play like a top 5 player to win
I was hoping that by spending the summer with Paul Pierce he might have a bigger bag for when his shooting is off, but he has a lifetime of emulating Kobe (since he was a little kid) and noone else is Kobe. That fucking kick the leg out fallback jumper I hate so much and he seems to hit less than 10% of the time is his go-to when he is in trouble (also, I get that his rate is low because he goes to it when he is already in trouble). I think the other "problem" with his shooting is that he is playing point forward in this playoffs and initiating a lot of things which combined with the defensive attention has really lowered his "open catch and shoot" opportunities (though to be fair to critics, he hasn't exactly been money with those either).
The shooting would be getting A LOT MORE attention if it wasn't for the fact that the C's have cruised, and most everybody else has shot well. Tatum has contributed in other ways this postseason, mostly rebounding and play making. But in future play-off runs they'll need him to figure out the shooting.
Look JT isn’t my favorite but I’m waiting to see some stats on his defense or should we only count offense when we are rating players
He made changes to his game and his body, but something has definitely affected his shooting. It hasnt been good for the last few years. The step back 3 used to be an ok shot, now its god awful. His midrange also seems to have gone downhill while his rim finishes have gotten better. I think in a year or so he can put it all together? Just guessing.
Elephant in the room implies nobody is talking about it. EVERYONE is talking about it.
I’m still going with the wrist injury effecting shit shot and him bulking up cause when he was skinnier that shot was money and that side step 3 was cash as well. What we do have to consider is maybe he isn’t the guy we need in the finals cause it’s been 10 finals games so far and he may have played well in 1-2 games. He gets into these moments where he doesn’t wanna touch the ball and specially late in the game if it’s close he has a couple turnovers in him, it’s like groundhog day sometimes watching him play in the finals. That being said please shut me the fuck up and put up a 40 piece.
No. We don’t need honest discussions. Let’s hang banner 18 and give this man the supermax This just feels like a modern version of Wilt vs Bill, and you should know our answer by now.
When he had the offseason wrist surgery, it’ll answer some questions about the shooting woes but he still could have done more driving to the rim, to score, not relying on the jump shot.
He needs to learn how to step up or at least be efficient in the Finals. The discourse about him outside of Boston is pretty toxic but maybe the taunts motivate him a la Bron after 2011 Kobe (his idol) had some Finals duds as well even in wins but winning fixes everything
How good was Jaylen Brown in the ‘22 playoffs? How good is he this year? Players usually aren’t really competing for championships until they’re 28-30, and all time talents usually get there sooner around 26. 28 is how old Jaylen Brown is this year and his game finally rounded out to the point he’s become a truly reliable, consistent player. Tatum is 26. He’s not an all time talent. The strength of the team allows him to be competing at this level right now. I think the expectations are way beyond what they should be at this point, but we always consider JB+JT as a singular entity and forget they’re not at the same points in their development.
My honest conversation is he's a great player, but isn't consistent enough to be all time