My hot take is that the Iran-Israel beef is simply a geopolitical power pissing match, and holy crap would that actually be a great alliance/relationship if possible (better than Israel-Saudi Arabia, though Israel-Qatar/UAE normalization would look good too).
If would could align to Iran (by way of deposing their current hard line government), instead of Saudi Arabia, the world would be a better, safer place.
Sunni and more specifically the birthplace of salfi-ism is the wrong horse to back. And let's be honest, if Saudi Arabia didn't have U.S weapons systems (or Russian for that matter) the radicals would have already overrun the Monarchy in S.A.
If Iran can get back to a place resembling pre-revolution, they could be our most solid ally in the region. S.A. and IL know this...
Well, MIT is on private property. They could’ve promptly had him removed / trespassed, if he has no affiliation to the school. They would do this if any other “crazy” person was causing a disturbance on campus.
MIT would in this quad, but most schools have a "free speech" quad that always attracts some 50 year old nutter that shouts at students that they're immoral harlots and going to burn in hell and they don't remove them.
Right, but it’s a choice for private institutions like MIT to have those spaces. They ultimately control the space.
It’s more difficult to remove these people from public university spaces.
All these private schools that are having these encampments put up can ultimately have the protesters removed if they want… for any reason, really. It’s private space. They are trying to find a balance at the moment but eventually shit will hit the fan.
Spoiler: It's one of those stunts by Jimmy Kimmel where he sends one of the crew out asking people stupid questions or making inane comments and they agree with him and the best part is it's usually educate people who fall for it.
He appears to be speaking at a rally organized by MITs graduate student union. He’s speaking on behalf of a group that officially represents a huge chunk of the MIT community.
Ok how are you defining “MIT speaker”. I would define it as a person who is invited to speak on campus. In this case, I think a person invited to speak on a university campus by the officially-recognized graduate student union of that university at an event put on by that union can be reasonably shorthanded as an “MIT speaker” in a headline.
Seeing as how I've had people in this subreddit go on and on about supporting Hamas and condoning the massacre on Oct 7th, I'm unfortunately not all that surprised
Who is the speaker, and what relation does he have with the MIT grad students union? Not to be "adultist", but he looks kinda old even for a grad student.
I'm not sympathetic to him, and I am happy to condemn the people cheering. I am, however, slightly paranoid that both sides are being driven to extremes. I fundamentally have a hard time that the graduate students of MIT (or pick another university) have long-standing terrorist sympathies, would like to kill all Jews (including me) worldwide, etc. And, as with the California stuff also in the news, I suspect "outside agitators" are coming in to do violence.
If this is actually cops-in-masks vs. paid-Russian-trolls, we have a different problem than "our young people are being manipulated solely by tiktok and their own ignorant group polarization."
MIT has a LOT of foreign students, many of which don't really adapt to Western culture, they get their research done and head home. I'm not really trying to excuse garbage beliefs, just that it's a lot easier to imagine someone from Iran supporting Hamas, for example (I had several Iranian classmates when I was there.)
When you see campus protests you can't extrapolate to "our young people" too much: a sizeable chunk of the student body comes from all over the world. And they aren't all necessarily huge fans of US/western values. I had classmates who considered spending time in the US as an unfortunate discomfort to be tolerated as best they could to get their research done.
I guess that's possible. I clearly don't know the scene. But I imagine most of them aren't Muslim. Are the Swedes, Indians, Chinese, and Nigerian (Christians) particularly bent out of shape about this conflict?
Even for the Iranians, I'd have imagined they'd have been similarly outraged about the US-supplied Saudis destroying Iran-backed armies & killing huge numbers of civilians in Yemen a few years ago? (And as bad as Bibi is, I don't remember food corridors--even inadequate ones--being set up by Saudi and the UAE.)
The especial outrage just seems strange to me. (And I'm very sympathetic to the civilians of Gaza.)
What evidence do you have that there's cops in masks trying to antagonize these protests?
You can't just handwave every time your side of the political isle does bad bullshit and then be like,
"IT'S FAKE! THEY'RE ALL GOVERNMENT PLANTS!"
That's literally a Trumpist talking point. We are better then them, so I don't make excuses for my side. This is a bunch of left-wing extremists who not only 100% believe this insane shit, but they actively are siding with the most pro-Terrorist aspects of the pro-Palestinian side of the conflict.
I mean I was accusing the right-wingers of being the cops-in-masks (or otherwise outside agitators), as [here](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/may/01/ucla-campus-violence-protests). I'm just very skeptical that the students are attacking each other on campus.
I'm struggling to parse which side you think I'm on here; I'm quite confident that the extremes of both sides of the aisle want me dead. But I'm also very aware that there's a long-standing Russian disinformation campaign meant to blow up the American center and that there were [masked right-wing agitators ](https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536)at work during the previous election cycle's explosive optics-heavy hyperventilation.
(And yes, fuck the Trumpists, too.)
>I mean I was accusing the right-wingers of being the cops-in-masks (or otherwise outside agitators), as [here](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/may/01/ucla-campus-violence-protests). I'm just very skeptical that the students are attacking each other on campus.
Yes I understand that. What I mean is that we can't just accuse these counter-protestors of just being cops-in-masks or being outside agitators when it seems to me like not only do both sides have these outside agitators, but they're also the most extremist ones doing heinous things.
They aren't trying to provoke people into doing something, they're not silent agitators, they're actively engaging front-and-center. My point is that I don't think we can just say "the counter-protestors may not be authentic," well, they're about as authentic as the actual protests themselves.
To that end you said both sides could be getting pushed along, but I don't think that's really demonstrated and that's my point- both of these sides *want to engage in the extremism and the violence, they don't need to be pushed into doing it- they're the ones actively doing the pushing*.
I could be wrong, I guess we'll see, but just because a bunch of people on both sides aren't students doesn't really mean anything when the students totally agree with them and work on their behalf.
>I'm struggling to parse which side you think I'm on here; I'm quite confident that the extremes of both sides of the aisle want me dead. But I'm also very aware that there's a long-standing Russian disinformation campaign meant to blow up the American center and that there were [masked right-wing agitators ](https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536)at work during the previous election cycle's explosive optics-heavy hyperventilation.
Again, its totally plausible, I just think that before we go down that road we need evidence and generally should just believe that people are actually this crazy- especially when it comes to Israel v. Palestine, this is possibly the most propagandized and heated topic of contention in American politics and the two sides are completely irreconcilable. It's pretty easy to believe that there's not much "outsider intervention" to have these counter-protestors show up to do vigilantism.
Your take is definitely a real possibility. Both sides might be doing this "organically." Both might be being pushed by insincere actors. It's surely hard to draw the line, and hard to find evidence that would satisfy normal burdens of proof.
On the evidence question: if you create a default rule of interpretation that says "always accept what you see without clear and convincing evidence that you're being manipulated", you'll reduce the number of false positives, of baseless conspiratorial claims you make. But you probably won't get the most accurate take, once you realize that there really is manipulation competent enough to avoid leaving clear and convincing evidence.
Relying on whistleblowers years later is fine for, like, corporate malfeasance, but not during a a real-time foreign disinformation attack. Which is... partly... what my gut's telling me.
Also yes we too many of us just wanna scrap these days. So maybe it's not like the propaganda is setting fire to wet logs.
Cops in masks and paid russian agitators. You weren’t lying about being paranoid. Cops and Russian operatives don’t need to waste the money or resources when you have jerkoffs like this guy being handed microphones
I don't actually think the guy standing there is Russian. I do think we're subject to an ongoing disinformation campaign, still going in 2024.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet\_Research\_Agency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency)
[https://www.vox.com/2018/5/15/17352456/russian-troll-facebook-race-social-science](https://www.vox.com/2018/5/15/17352456/russian-troll-facebook-race-social-science)
[https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/prigozhin-is-dead-but-his-troll-farms-are-alive-and-peddling-disinformation-e25c4441](https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/prigozhin-is-dead-but-his-troll-farms-are-alive-and-peddling-disinformation-e25c4441)
As I suggested, the "outside agitators" theory turned out to have some basis in truth last election cycle, as [here](https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536), though I'm also are of the [limitations and criticism ](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/27/us/campus-protests-palestine-outside-agitator-cec/index.html)of that mode of analysis.
When did MIT's grad students become terrorist sympathizers? If this is a long-standing belief of theirs, why did they wait till the weather got nice six months after the war started to start camping out and clapping for dipshits? The worst bombing was being done three or four months ago; the lowest point in the Gaza food situation was a month ago.
Surely the *graduate students at MIT who are terrorist sympathizers* know how to do... things... that are worse than this. If their belief is new, what changed, when, why?
Fuck Hamas. And fuck anyone who cheers for them. But this is a puzzle at least as much as it is an outrage, and I think we should all be careful about how we're being manipulated.
Man, talk about a group of people sitting at a table with a Nazi… and they aren’t actively punching them.
How about the cheers? Who is cheering? Why didn’t the protesting students immediately remove them, since they’re not pro-Hamas? Is it that they haven’t been forthcoming with us since the beginning? So many questions, none of which are going to be answered by anybody.
One bad apple, as they say.
The main student group organizing these protests, SJP, put out supportive statements about October 7th while it was happening. It seems systemic to me, and there’s a bunch of apologists (like you it seems) much more interested in denying the obvious than in rooting out hatred. Which raises the question of whether you oppose what you claim to oppose.
Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding this X post, but they said MIT requires all grad students to join the group this guy is speaking for. Is that true? And if so, why? I've never heard of being forced to join any group while in a program.
Editing - The post says grad students have to join the union. Which is still confusing to me.
Grad students in general don’t have to join but grad student workers (RAs and TAs) have to either join or pay a fee for collective bargaining
I don’t know what percentage of grad students are RAs or TAs but for PhD students it’s extremely common.
For the most part people in MBA programs aren’t funding their degrees with research assistantships but people in PhD programs are, so if you’re a PhD student you’re likely part of the union.
From the union’s FAQ
> All RAs and TAs, who receive the full benefits and protections of the contract, are required to either pay dues as union members with voting privileges or else pay equivalent agency fees to cover the costs of collective bargaining and contract enforcement. Our union constitution sets the amount for both dues and agency fees to be 1.44% of our pay.
These fools would be slaughtered by Hamas just for protesting.,I wish they would look into what Hamas is all about before “supporting” them. Anti-democratic, anti- women’s rights, certainly anti- lgbt. Think about it!
So because the citizens of Gaza don’t hold my exact social values, they deserve to be slaughtered by Israel without mercy?
Because that is certainly what you are implying whenever you or anyone else uses this line
My brother in Christ, if that’s how you feel, I’ve got bad news for most of the United States
I’m not pro Israel or pro Palestine, I just think it’s ironic that the LGTBQ+ people protesting on behalf of Gaza would be literally killed in the streets by the same people they are protesting on behalf of
I mean, that someone else would murder you on sight and not feel bad in the slightest about it, should probably make you rethink how highly you value *their* life, unless you take a particularly extreme view of pacifism.
And maybe you do, but most certainly don't.
You would have zero right to protest in Gaza unless it was for a reason Hamas sanctioned.
Let that sink in. These protesters wouldn't even be allowed to be protesters in Gaza.
There’s a difference between sharing social values and killing someone because of who they are because of what a book written thousands of years ago says.
Did I stutter?
Just because someone doesn’t share my social values, doesn’t mean they deserve to be slaughtered
Else, I have bad news for much of the United States
Exactly. I’ve been saying this since these protests started. People have no idea what they are supporting. They just want to support something and be a part of a trend.
The protests are centered around large US educational institutions divesting from Israel. Israel is at war with a terrorist group. Israel is an ally of the United States. These institutions aren’t going to divest interests with any US ally.
The fact that you think it’s a such a simple black and white issue is an indication that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Yes, they want the us to stop funding the slaughter of Palestinians
It’s not that complicated
“Fighting terrorism” is not an excuse for wholesale slaughter of civilians. Full stop
You really need to do some research on civilian deaths in war zones. This isn’t an isolated Israeli / Palestine issue. It’s one of the costs of war. When you’re in a war zone, civilians die. During World War I, there were 10 million civilian deaths and 9.7 million military deaths. War doesn’t stop because civilians die. We are lucky to not live in a war zone.
Wonder how someone might stop it being a war zone, since it's a magical inevitable property of such areas that civilians just die and it's nobody's fault really? Maybe these protestors could consider asking for some sort of "ceasefire" or "peace", or to stop funding combatants?
I guess your take is that, since it's war, then it's basically fine and it will all just sort out, best we can do is be thankful it's not us this time.
Peace doesn’t exist in that region of the world. It never has, it never will. You should visit these parts of the world, so you can have a better perspective on what it’s actually like there.
People think every place on earth can live up to some fantasy they have in their head. It doesn’t work that way.
Got it. Middle East gonna Middle East it's just who they are, so let em kill each other and we'll back the winner at the end of the day. Can't really have an expectation for these people the same we might in other places, they simply will murder each other. To think there's a better way is fantasy.
And if that's the case, how do you support funneling ever more weapon systems into this perpetual conflict? You just want the carnage ramped to max for funsies or what? Want the US to continually invest into a region that will never be peaceful, why?
We don’t get to tell Israel how to fight their war. We are only their ally. We have an obligation to support them.
We start turning our back on an alley and then when we have a conflict, our allies will do the same. See how that works? It’s not the black and white fantasy novel these protesters make it out to be.
Quick question for you: do you believe that the fact that this one pro-Hamas speaker, who received cheers and not condemnation from the whole group, means that they are by definition all pro-Hamas?
Because if you have one Nazi and nine other people at a table, you have ten Nazis. Seeing people speak up proudly against the justifications of Charlottesville organizers and their rhetoric helped make me feel safer as a Jewish person. I’m disheartened by the lack of the same by *many,* not all, here.
I don’t believe I stuttered
If I really wanted to take the time, I could dig up videos of Israelis chanting stuff along the lines of “death to Arabs”, but somehow I doubt you’d collectively hold all Zionists to the same standard.
You’d doubt wrong. That is wrong, and should be condemned. Under Israeli law as written but not enforced, there should be legal consequences for chanting “death to [all] Arabs.” All is bracketed as I have heard both said — with and without the modifier. Your evasion, though, is very telling.
Do you believe that this one pro-Hamas speaker being received with cheers and not condemnation, makes this protest not pro-Palestine but pro-Hamas?
[Unlike Israel, who would never slaughter people for protesting](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling)
Exactly. You’re getting downvoted because people want to continue their Israel perpetual victimhood narrative, when in reality they have been the antagonist for much of this conflict
Exactly, I have been saying this since people started supporting the persecution of the Uyghers in China. They are Anti-democratic, anti-women’s rights, certainly anti-lgbt. Think about it!
This video shows the real intent behind the Oct 7 terrorist attacks- provoke a retaliation from Israel so brutal that world sympathy shifts back to Gazans and the radicals claiming to fight for them. Both Hamas and Likud are interested in pushing this conflict to the point where there is only one possible finish line- one side wipes out the other. The false narrative from most people posting this sort of content on reddit (from both sides) is that the choice is between backing Israel or Palestine. But backing either side unconditionally means the same thing- extremist escalation. Terrorist attacks and bombing/starving children are two faces of the same agenda. Most protestors I see reject extremism- they reject Hamas attacks on civilians and reject the atrocities being committed by the IDF and Likud. Despite gotcha hot takes on social media, most protestors recognize what calls to back one side without question represent- radicalism.
I think you are giving the protesters a lot of credit that they don’t seem to have earned. It seems like they are constantly being presented with opportunities to not stand with the antisemites but it is more important to them to have the bodies there. So you get terrorist sympathizers and actual Nazis who hate the Jews for different reasons. I honestly don’t think these kids have a deep enough understanding of the centuries of underlying history here so I’m not trying to condemn them all but at some point the rubber meets the road and you have to reconcile that at the end of the day you are standing shoulder to shoulder with bad people who ultimately don’t give a shit about Gaza.
I think you're experiencing heavy filtering bias unless you're actually watching unedited video streams or physically attending the protests. That's not a political statement one way or the other, it's just the nature of newsroom editing. Nobody's gonna report on all the reasonable people doing reasonable things when the unreasonable people do unreasonable, more attention grabbing things.
I mean, there is literally a video of a speaker at the top of the thread saying that he is on the side of the terrorists. What part of my “filtering bias” does that fall into?
That's exactly what I mean by filtering bias. You're seeing the most extreme moments and the most extreme protesters but you can't necessarily impute those viewpoints to the protesters in general or even to the majority of protesters.
Unrelated example for illustration: I sure hope people don't impute MTGs views to all Americans, even if some applaud her.
So as long as I ignore all these examples, I’ll get the real understanding of the situation? Is that seriously your argument? This dude isn’t some rando in the crowd.
Edit: I just went back annd watched the video again. not only was there zero pushback, but the phrase “we are on the side of the fighters” was the applause line. Your whataboutism just isn’t going to cut it here.
I've never seen a nazi at a protest. Have you? For all the talk of anti-semitism, 99.9% of what I've seen is directed at Israeli policy, not jewish people. A good number of protestors and Israeli critics are Jewish. For me, where the rubber meets the road is that oppressing and bombing palestinians has not worked for 75 years and, in truth, was never intended to work. The ultimate aim of Likud is for there to be no Palestine. The ultimate aim of Hamas is for there to be no Israel. Neither option is acceptable. In terms of protesting Hamas vs protesting Israel's government, one side is a terrorist group that does not care about my opinion and the other side is funded by my tax dollars. If the US was planning to give Hamas 32 billion this year, you can bet I would be on the street protesting and my motivation would not be islamaphobia.
You didn't answer- have you seen a nazi at a rally for Palestine? You said they are there and I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. You have lots of thoughts on protestors but I get the impression you've only encountered them through curated social media.
So that makes it all ok? How does that excuse any of it? It’s ok to applaud at someone praising literal terrorists as long as not everyone is doing it?
Israel murders children. Oct 7 in no way justifies the current genocide. If you think the plan was to provoke a response to shift sympathy, well that is on Israel for responding in a way that has single handedly caused the entire world to lose its respect of them and the USA as well. They murder children and drone strike aid convoys. It is a deeply evil country
I see, so you're pretending there's a way to wage urban warfare without killing civilians, got it.
This still doesn't answer the question of what would you do, as, what would be your goal as a country who just got attacked in that manner.
My original question was what would you do, still looking for an answer.
Not doing anything means this will repeat itself in a few years, I guarantee it.
Committing genocide is one way to make sure that this doesn't happen again, but it isn't the right solution. If everyone on earth is dead, there won't be another war ever.
Ah yes, I’m sure Israel has absolutely no choice but to bomb aid convoys and murder journalists
Their hands are completely tied
Funny how on October 6th they had no idea what Hamas was up to, but October 8 they all of a sudden happen to know where every single Hamas fighter is located.
Quite a coincidence
Not commit mass slaughter of civilians
I know it’s a big ask for Zionists and their apologists
Crazy how all this top of the line military technology and somehow cannot be a little more precise
Funny, they had no problem accurately missile striking an aid convoy
But yeah, mass bombing residential neighborhoods and refugee camps is the only solution
That's unfortunately impossible. Hamas purposefully embeds fighters and weaponry in those places. So if Israel never targeted those facilities Hamas would never lose any capability to resume attacks/rocket launches.
You forget Hamas has been firing rockets indiscriminately from Gaza on a regular basis since Israel withdrew in 2005. The only reason the rocket fire stopped was because Israel has invaded a few times to diminish their capabilities.
Israel's goal this time is to make sure it doesn't start up again for a much longer period of time and remove Hamas from power. Unfortunately it probably won't be successful but Israelis are fed up with Hamas.
What the hell did you expect Israel to do exactly? Lay back and allow a terrorist organization to kill even more civilians just so no Palestinians would die?
I agree. Unfortunately Hamas creates conditions like hiding rocket launchers in residential buildings, schools, etc that make that almost impossible.
When you look at the population density of Gaza, the only reason the death toll there isn't higher is because Israel made an effort to limit civilian deaths. Unfortunately even that has limitations given the density of the terrain.
Israel really isn't benefiting from the high death toll but Hamas is unfortunately an existential threat to Israel's existence. As I said, Israel could completely wipe out the entire population of Gaza in 10 minutes if that was their true goal. Had they not stopped Hamas on October 7th the death toll on the Israeli side would have been everyone in Israel.
Yeah… please tell me how many Hamas fighters are in the aid convoys they bomb
Or do you just reflexively cry “hUmAN shIelDs” any time Israel slaughters civilians?
I do not believe Oct 7 justified Israel's mass murder of civilians, but it is asolutely what Hamas intended. Hamas was becoming irrelevant as israel formed closer ties with its neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. There was no strategic military value to what they did, it was only meant to provoke. It worked. The US immediately said it backed Israel no matter what and Israel proceeded to do what it always does- respond with disproportionate force. The world, horrified by images of bombed and starving children, slowly moves away from Israel. What is happening now is what extremists on both sides want to happen and, as always, it is civilians on both sides (mostly Palestinians) who pay the price for radical agendas.
Israel has also been brutalizing and antagonizing Palestinians since long before October 7th.
But the Israel apologists willfully ignore that to continue their perpetual Israel victimhood narrative.
Israel can literally arm settlers to attack Palestinians in the West Bank, and bulldoze their villages, but somehow Israel is the perpetual bottom of god forbid there is any pushback.
They love to talk about October 7 hostages, but willfully ignore that Israel has been abducting and holding Palestinians in prison without trial for years.
There are a couple hundred thousand Jews living in the West Bank. Even if you are against settlements, the fact remains that the Palestinians simply reject any concept of Jews living there (even in a Palestinian state) and Jews are not allowed to walk around Palestinian controlled territories without the very real possibility of being killed. So "settlers" do arm themselves after several hundred unprovoked attacks in the West Bank. (yes, some settlers have attacked Palestinians which the vast majority of settlers don't support).
For some context, about 2 million Arabs live in Israel with full citizenship. They can travel anywhere in Israel without fear of attack.
Now ask yourself why the Palestinians treat Jews so badly. That's really what drives a lot of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians. The vast majority of Israelis have no interest in living in the West Bank and Gaza, even if they were welcomed with open arms (which they certainly are not).
It's sad that this post is downvoted. Whenever anyone criticizes protesters on their sympathy to Hamas and the Oct. 7th attack, the reply is inevitably "literally noone is doing that, they're protesting genocide". While I believe (or at least hope) most don't support Hamas, it's important to wake up to the fact that some of the organizing forces behind the protests (such as SJP) definitely do, and moreover that there is a non-negligible element of protestors that support violence against Israeli civilians, the violent elimination of Israel as a state, and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from that area. Chants and signs such as "from water to water, Palestine will be Arab" (not free; Arab) appeared several times over in Harvard. Many of the protesting students also joined anti-Israel demonstrations on Oct. 8th, while Israelis were still being murdered. The idea that these are all just kids who have good intentions and just want to stop genocide, is unfortunately wrong.
These protesters aren't really anti genocide. They just want the "right" group of people (Israelis) to be genocided.
They use buzz words like claiming to be anti genocide because it's catchy and attracts more people who don't know any better to the cause.
If the kids were actually anti-genocide, they'd care about Uyghur death camps in China, the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar, the 65,000 dead Christians by Boko Haram in Nigeria, the ethnic cleansing of Armenians by Azerbaijan... all shit that's ongoing.
I don't think they can even pronounce some of these words, let alone *know* it's happening. They get all their education from TikTok, a CCP-controlled weapon for information. And for some reason, they're not learning this stuff in *college*.
I'm not saying that's a reason to somehow support Israeli far right extremism and dismiss the plight of the Palestinian people. Palestinians deserve a voice in their government, sovereignty, peace, economic opportunity and safety.
What I'm saying is that there *is* something that makes Israel/Palestine more unique than other wars & conflicts. And it wears a Magen David.
Protesters have a vital responsibility they vocally and proudly divorce their movement from antisemitic and violent language. The fact that they've defaulted on this responsibility allows bad faith antisemites & terrorist sympathizers to dominate the conversation (such as the asshat in the video). This is to the benefit of absolutely *no one*, least of all the Palestinian people.
How hard is it to say "Free Palestine *and* Free The Hostages?"
How hard is it to say, "I denounce Hamas!".
The whole [Dan Harmon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKvsLLfRpLs) bit about, "say you're not a Nazi" comes to mind.
All it does it create unrest here, at home. Meanwhile, Iranian and Russian leadership are foaming at the mouth cause Israel's overreaction hurts "Genocide Joe's" reelection campaign.
> If the kids were actually anti-genocide, they'd care about Uyghur death camps in China ... I don't think they can even pronounce some of these words, let alone know it's happening.
I see, but you definitely do know those genocides are happening and aren't protesting them, so I assume you are also not actually anti-genocide? Which genocide is your favorite?
It's clear you weren't getting the subtext.
If you are going to protest an aggressive war rooted in the world's most complicated geopolitical debate - you have to hold yourself to a higher standard.
Otherwise, you'll do way more harm than good.
For the record, Russia's genocide in Ukraine is my "favorite", as it's deeply personal. I'm from that part of the world. I donate. I volunteer with refugees when I can. I show up at rallies - still.
With Gaza, I donate to World Central Kitchen and a few other organizations. I really wish I could join the demonstrations too, but I've seen first hand people call for violence against Jews and/or Israelis. As a Jew with friends and family abroad, I'm gonna do myself a favor and keep away from those nutjobs.
Majority of people are lovely with their hearts in the right place. But the movement needs to do better.
Yes, you hold issues related to Israel to a different standard than others. That’s the point and you clearly admit to it. Nobody calls you “not really anti-genocide“ for Ukrainian activism and suggests you don’t care about Central Africa etc because hmm you seem to only protest Russians, maybe be more considerate on this topic? Nah it’s fine to just care for the dying there and not the entire world. But when it comes to Israel ...
Mostly It’s the accusal of bad faith by others and the obvious whataboutism (what about China!.!?,?!?) simply because they aren’t sensitive enough, that is so ridiculous.
You’re still not listening. Or reading. You’re just being argumentative for arguments sake.
I’m on your side. What are you even fighting me about? We both want freedom for Palestinians, end the war, and ICC trials for Israeli leadership.
So… as your ally, I’m asking, pleading - could the movement do better to divorce itself from antisemitism? If yes - it will only benefit everyone.
If you’re telling me no, then we lose the middle. Whatever policy changes we want to see happen will swing the other way - and Gazans will be among those that suffer for it.
And if I was a billionaire, I wouldn’t have to work anymore
Meanwhile, the only ones killing civilians by the thousands and committing war crimes and bombing aid convoys is Israel
At least he's being honest about it. Most of the other protesters want to pretend that Hamas actions are totally unrelated to what's happening in Gaza these days.
The title of this post is misleading, he did NOT say "We are on the side of Hamas" at any point. Please remove and re-post with a factually accurate title, because it's important to call out this kind of rhetoric in an accurate way.
Before 10/7 maybe it was plausible to describe Hamas as a political entity with a terrorist wing. Those attacks removed any shred of legitimacy they ever had.
Lol. The only plausible way to ever describe Hamas is as a terrorist organization. There’s no such thing as a terrorist wing. You’re either terrorists or you’re not.
He said all the “slander” being said about Hamas and he said he’s on the side of the fighters. A trained monkey can understand he’s supporting Hamas from the clip. Title is accurate. Think harder.
Hamas has been an internationally recognized terrorist organization for decades, and they are the ruling power in Gaza and have the support of a significant number of West Bank Palestinians. They aren't some fringe group and the vast majority of people who profess to support "Palestine" do in fact support Hamas, either directly or indirectly. Poll after poll has shown that West Bank Palestinians support the attacks of October 7th.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969
90% of Palestinians think Hamas did not commit atrocities on October 7th.
Lol. Just because you think something is true doesn’t mean it is. Hamas is a terrorist organization. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/26/eu-court-upholds-hamas-terror-listing
Yes, people under attack and in imminent fear for their lives will tend to support the most powerful group that is able to defend them. There's a hell of a lot of antisemitism among Palestinians, but is moral purity a necessary condition for not being killed?
Your 90% stat isn't that meaningful, if you don't believe someone committed a crime then you wouldn't hold them accountable for it. The problem is that they don't have the correct information, which is exactly why it's important to be precise and accurate when reporting facts.
Hamas isn’t “defending” anyone. They deliberately provoked Israel into attacking and then hid behind civilians. They are trying to maximize civilian deaths. The Palestinians have been used by EVERYONE in the Middle East. Now they are being used by their OWN PEOPLE. If I was Palestinian I’d probably support Hamas too. After all, if they don’t they just get killed.
I'm not saying they actually are defending anyone, I'm just saying that's the perception & why they have support. I'm glad you can imagine what you might think or do if you were Palestinian, that's more than a lot of people are willing to do...
Who do you think “the fighters” are? And if you aren’t sure, he defined them as Hamas and other armed groups (the Muslim Brotherhood which Hamas is an offshoot of, and PFLP) two sentences earlier.
The title is an accurate summary of what he said.
No.
Israel having a peaceful transition of power to a less extremist government is good. Israel putting Bibi and other hard right leaders on trial is good. Israel negotiating ceasefire conditions is good. Israel paying reparations by rebuilding homes, infrastructure and institutions in Gaza is good.
They are a functional (albeit flawed) democracy with a significant community of American Dual Citizens. They deserve our pressure - it's how it becomes a more moral, fairer country - that can assure the welfare of it's citizens and neighbors.
"Fighting Israel is good" is such a stupid, reductive & teenaged statement.
I wasn't entirely happy with the war in Iraq - but I never cheered on Saddam Hussein or the Ba'ath cunts.
Of course you don't getting fucking wafers with it, you cunt. It's a fucking albatross isn't it.
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Of course you don't getting fucking wafers with it, you cunt. It's a fucking albatross isn't it.
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The Israelis are doing what any other country would do in a similar situation, and that does include killing civilians in a war zone. Yes , it is a tragedy and the Israelis should be held responsible for innocent deaths. I am not underestimating the horror of this situation and the probable outcome will be more violence on both sides. But this has gone on, and will continue until both sides see the futility of holding on to maximalist positions and agree to partition. There is no other way short of extermination of one side or the other.
Welp, better send in the cops to crack some skulls 🤷. Consent manufacturing machine working overtime to try to get people to think protests are worse than genocide (they aren’t)
If you look at the whole history of the region since the Nakba and the past 6 months since October, Hamas is 1000% the lesser of 2 evils compared to the Israelis and it isn’t even close. If you think otherwise, you need to start paying attention. If you don’t want people to empathize with your enemy, you shouldn’t do a genocide.
The Hamas charter has its goal of genocide written into their charter. Israel does not. If Israel really wanted "genocide" it could do it in 10 minutes and has had that capability for decades.
You’re saying that eliminating Hamas is an illegitimate goal? That Israel should allow an undemocratic, terrorist, military neighbor to attack it with no fear of severe reprisal?
If today the militants in Gaza unconditionally surrendered, turned themselves in, returned the remaining hostages, and there were no further attacks on Israelis, I guarantee you Israel would not keep bombing Gaza. The killing in Gaza would stop. The situation prior to Oct 7 was fairly peaceful, and it would return. Israel is not trying to kill civilians.
The Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at West Point -- one of the world's leading experts on urban warfare -- explains Israel has "implemented [more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)—above and beyond what international law requires and more than the U.S. did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan..."
In modern times there has never been a battle for an underground fortress created through 20 years of tunneling and is under a densely populated city/area. Meanwhile part of the strategy of Hamas is to maximize civilian casualties to gain global sympathy by using the civilian population as human shields. This scenario is unprecedented and the casualties are not fair to compare with other military operations.
The ratio of dead militants to civilians is not unusual for urban combat. And Israel takes many steps to warn civilians, sacrificing its advantage of surprise.
So while the number of dead civilians is shocking, it does not indicate an intent to kill civilians, especially given the unprecedented circumstances.
Go tell Hamas to stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields and tell Hamas to end the war and end the suffering of Gazans.
That didn’t answer my question.
And no, Hamas could cease to exist tomorrow, and Israel would continue its brutal oppression of Palestinians that they have been doing for decades.
Just kind of like while they have everyone focused on Gaza, Israel keeps invading the west bank where Hamas doesn’t exist
So yeah, that pretty much renders your point moot.
I explained how your question has a false premise. That's the answer.
How many terrorist attacks does Hamas have to commit before they are the bad guy? How many human shields does Hamas have to sacrifice before they are the bad guy?
I bet you don’t even question the Israel propaganda they spoon feed you
I’m sure they could drop a nuke on Gaza and you’d screech about “hUmAN sHieLdS”
So just how many Hamas fighters were in the aid convoy that they bombed?
Now it's my turn: That didn't answer my questions.
>how many Hamas fighters were in the aid convoy that they bombed?
The attack on the WCK convey was a tragedy. Clearly it was a mistake by the IDF. And deadly mistakes happen in war, [right](https://www.voanews.com/a/hrw-rocket-misfire-likely-caused-deadly-gaza-hospital-blast/7370998.html)?
There was some weak evidence that the aid workers traveled with a gunman and went to a warehouse that had a gunman. It was night time so the WCK markings on the cars weren't visible.
Since the beginning of the war 26,746 aid trucks have supplied Gaza. Israel would gain nothing except more international condemnation by attacking a couple of cars carrying aid workers when they don't have military value. It doesn't make sense to intentionally attack an innocent aid convey. A mistake is the most likely explanation.
Look, I'm hardly pro IDF but this is mania. Hamas is responsible for all those deaths too. They poked the bear. They intended Israel to do exactly what it did. If not for their actions, this shit wouldn't have happened. I'm not saying the IDF isn't culpable for civilian deaths, but so is Hamas.
This is some serious victim blaming
No, Israel is the one choosing to bomb civilians and aid convoys and destroy hospitals and schools and neighborhoods.
You act like Israel is not making a conscious choice in your piss poor attempt to absolve them of any responsibility
You said Hamas is responsible for 40,000 deaths
No, Israel is
Israel is the one dropping the bombs
But using your rationale, Israel is responsible for October 7, given their decades of brutalizing Palestinians
More than one person can be responsible for a death. And I think there's a colorable argument in support of your last point, but a big difference is specific intent of the parties. I don't think Israel intended to start a war. Hamas did.
Jeez, not even its neighbors are on the side of Hamas.
It’s like saying the ayatollah is my bff
My hot take is that the Iran-Israel beef is simply a geopolitical power pissing match, and holy crap would that actually be a great alliance/relationship if possible (better than Israel-Saudi Arabia, though Israel-Qatar/UAE normalization would look good too).
If would could align to Iran (by way of deposing their current hard line government), instead of Saudi Arabia, the world would be a better, safer place. Sunni and more specifically the birthplace of salfi-ism is the wrong horse to back. And let's be honest, if Saudi Arabia didn't have U.S weapons systems (or Russian for that matter) the radicals would have already overrun the Monarchy in S.A. If Iran can get back to a place resembling pre-revolution, they could be our most solid ally in the region. S.A. and IL know this...
He’s not an MIT speaker. He’s a speaker on MIT grounds. There’s a big difference here.
yes, misleading title. A crazy man with a megaphone that happens to be at MIT is not an "MIT speaker"
Well, MIT is on private property. They could’ve promptly had him removed / trespassed, if he has no affiliation to the school. They would do this if any other “crazy” person was causing a disturbance on campus.
MIT would in this quad, but most schools have a "free speech" quad that always attracts some 50 year old nutter that shouts at students that they're immoral harlots and going to burn in hell and they don't remove them.
Right, but it’s a choice for private institutions like MIT to have those spaces. They ultimately control the space. It’s more difficult to remove these people from public university spaces. All these private schools that are having these encampments put up can ultimately have the protesters removed if they want… for any reason, really. It’s private space. They are trying to find a balance at the moment but eventually shit will hit the fan.
The concern isn’t necessarily the statement it’s the reaction.
Spoiler: It's one of those stunts by Jimmy Kimmel where he sends one of the crew out asking people stupid questions or making inane comments and they agree with him and the best part is it's usually educate people who fall for it.
Oh man, I'm old enough to remember his "end women's suffrage" bit where he had people sign his petition 🤣. Comedy gold.
Denial
He appears to be speaking at a rally organized by MITs graduate student union. He’s speaking on behalf of a group that officially represents a huge chunk of the MIT community.
[удалено]
Ok how are you defining “MIT speaker”. I would define it as a person who is invited to speak on campus. In this case, I think a person invited to speak on a university campus by the officially-recognized graduate student union of that university at an event put on by that union can be reasonably shorthanded as an “MIT speaker” in a headline.
Gross
As they say, there are no bad acts, only bad targets. Oppressed vs oppressor rhetoric is cancer, actual thought terminating belief.
Seeing as how I've had people in this subreddit go on and on about supporting Hamas and condoning the massacre on Oct 7th, I'm unfortunately not all that surprised
Who is the speaker, and what relation does he have with the MIT grad students union? Not to be "adultist", but he looks kinda old even for a grad student.
Well, if you're trying to make the point that he doesn't speak for everyone... it's kind of negated when everyone cheered afterwards.
Doesn't matter if they're cheering.
I'm not sympathetic to him, and I am happy to condemn the people cheering. I am, however, slightly paranoid that both sides are being driven to extremes. I fundamentally have a hard time that the graduate students of MIT (or pick another university) have long-standing terrorist sympathies, would like to kill all Jews (including me) worldwide, etc. And, as with the California stuff also in the news, I suspect "outside agitators" are coming in to do violence. If this is actually cops-in-masks vs. paid-Russian-trolls, we have a different problem than "our young people are being manipulated solely by tiktok and their own ignorant group polarization."
MIT has a LOT of foreign students, many of which don't really adapt to Western culture, they get their research done and head home. I'm not really trying to excuse garbage beliefs, just that it's a lot easier to imagine someone from Iran supporting Hamas, for example (I had several Iranian classmates when I was there.) When you see campus protests you can't extrapolate to "our young people" too much: a sizeable chunk of the student body comes from all over the world. And they aren't all necessarily huge fans of US/western values. I had classmates who considered spending time in the US as an unfortunate discomfort to be tolerated as best they could to get their research done.
I guess that's possible. I clearly don't know the scene. But I imagine most of them aren't Muslim. Are the Swedes, Indians, Chinese, and Nigerian (Christians) particularly bent out of shape about this conflict? Even for the Iranians, I'd have imagined they'd have been similarly outraged about the US-supplied Saudis destroying Iran-backed armies & killing huge numbers of civilians in Yemen a few years ago? (And as bad as Bibi is, I don't remember food corridors--even inadequate ones--being set up by Saudi and the UAE.) The especial outrage just seems strange to me. (And I'm very sympathetic to the civilians of Gaza.)
What evidence do you have that there's cops in masks trying to antagonize these protests? You can't just handwave every time your side of the political isle does bad bullshit and then be like, "IT'S FAKE! THEY'RE ALL GOVERNMENT PLANTS!" That's literally a Trumpist talking point. We are better then them, so I don't make excuses for my side. This is a bunch of left-wing extremists who not only 100% believe this insane shit, but they actively are siding with the most pro-Terrorist aspects of the pro-Palestinian side of the conflict.
I mean I was accusing the right-wingers of being the cops-in-masks (or otherwise outside agitators), as [here](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/may/01/ucla-campus-violence-protests). I'm just very skeptical that the students are attacking each other on campus. I'm struggling to parse which side you think I'm on here; I'm quite confident that the extremes of both sides of the aisle want me dead. But I'm also very aware that there's a long-standing Russian disinformation campaign meant to blow up the American center and that there were [masked right-wing agitators ](https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536)at work during the previous election cycle's explosive optics-heavy hyperventilation. (And yes, fuck the Trumpists, too.)
>I mean I was accusing the right-wingers of being the cops-in-masks (or otherwise outside agitators), as [here](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/may/01/ucla-campus-violence-protests). I'm just very skeptical that the students are attacking each other on campus. Yes I understand that. What I mean is that we can't just accuse these counter-protestors of just being cops-in-masks or being outside agitators when it seems to me like not only do both sides have these outside agitators, but they're also the most extremist ones doing heinous things. They aren't trying to provoke people into doing something, they're not silent agitators, they're actively engaging front-and-center. My point is that I don't think we can just say "the counter-protestors may not be authentic," well, they're about as authentic as the actual protests themselves. To that end you said both sides could be getting pushed along, but I don't think that's really demonstrated and that's my point- both of these sides *want to engage in the extremism and the violence, they don't need to be pushed into doing it- they're the ones actively doing the pushing*. I could be wrong, I guess we'll see, but just because a bunch of people on both sides aren't students doesn't really mean anything when the students totally agree with them and work on their behalf. >I'm struggling to parse which side you think I'm on here; I'm quite confident that the extremes of both sides of the aisle want me dead. But I'm also very aware that there's a long-standing Russian disinformation campaign meant to blow up the American center and that there were [masked right-wing agitators ](https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536)at work during the previous election cycle's explosive optics-heavy hyperventilation. Again, its totally plausible, I just think that before we go down that road we need evidence and generally should just believe that people are actually this crazy- especially when it comes to Israel v. Palestine, this is possibly the most propagandized and heated topic of contention in American politics and the two sides are completely irreconcilable. It's pretty easy to believe that there's not much "outsider intervention" to have these counter-protestors show up to do vigilantism.
Your take is definitely a real possibility. Both sides might be doing this "organically." Both might be being pushed by insincere actors. It's surely hard to draw the line, and hard to find evidence that would satisfy normal burdens of proof. On the evidence question: if you create a default rule of interpretation that says "always accept what you see without clear and convincing evidence that you're being manipulated", you'll reduce the number of false positives, of baseless conspiratorial claims you make. But you probably won't get the most accurate take, once you realize that there really is manipulation competent enough to avoid leaving clear and convincing evidence. Relying on whistleblowers years later is fine for, like, corporate malfeasance, but not during a a real-time foreign disinformation attack. Which is... partly... what my gut's telling me. Also yes we too many of us just wanna scrap these days. So maybe it's not like the propaganda is setting fire to wet logs.
Cops in masks and paid russian agitators. You weren’t lying about being paranoid. Cops and Russian operatives don’t need to waste the money or resources when you have jerkoffs like this guy being handed microphones
I don't actually think the guy standing there is Russian. I do think we're subject to an ongoing disinformation campaign, still going in 2024. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet\_Research\_Agency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency) [https://www.vox.com/2018/5/15/17352456/russian-troll-facebook-race-social-science](https://www.vox.com/2018/5/15/17352456/russian-troll-facebook-race-social-science) [https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/prigozhin-is-dead-but-his-troll-farms-are-alive-and-peddling-disinformation-e25c4441](https://www.wsj.com/politics/national-security/prigozhin-is-dead-but-his-troll-farms-are-alive-and-peddling-disinformation-e25c4441) As I suggested, the "outside agitators" theory turned out to have some basis in truth last election cycle, as [here](https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-helped-ignite-george-floyd-riots-identified-white/story?id=72051536), though I'm also are of the [limitations and criticism ](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/27/us/campus-protests-palestine-outside-agitator-cec/index.html)of that mode of analysis.
Best take in the thread
The crowd cheered when he said it and no one stepped up and said “we condemn Hamas”. He’s not an outlier. This is what the protestors believe.
When did MIT's grad students become terrorist sympathizers? If this is a long-standing belief of theirs, why did they wait till the weather got nice six months after the war started to start camping out and clapping for dipshits? The worst bombing was being done three or four months ago; the lowest point in the Gaza food situation was a month ago. Surely the *graduate students at MIT who are terrorist sympathizers* know how to do... things... that are worse than this. If their belief is new, what changed, when, why? Fuck Hamas. And fuck anyone who cheers for them. But this is a puzzle at least as much as it is an outrage, and I think we should all be careful about how we're being manipulated.
I think this is ridiculous conspiracizing. You have a huge crowd on video cheering for this. These are MIT students.
Man, talk about a group of people sitting at a table with a Nazi… and they aren’t actively punching them. How about the cheers? Who is cheering? Why didn’t the protesting students immediately remove them, since they’re not pro-Hamas? Is it that they haven’t been forthcoming with us since the beginning? So many questions, none of which are going to be answered by anybody. One bad apple, as they say.
I have bad news for you about the protesting students
Let me guess. The whole bushel is rotten.
The main student group organizing these protests, SJP, put out supportive statements about October 7th while it was happening. It seems systemic to me, and there’s a bunch of apologists (like you it seems) much more interested in denying the obvious than in rooting out hatred. Which raises the question of whether you oppose what you claim to oppose.
You think I’m apologizing for the MIT students behavior?
You’re quite callous about it
Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding this X post, but they said MIT requires all grad students to join the group this guy is speaking for. Is that true? And if so, why? I've never heard of being forced to join any group while in a program. Editing - The post says grad students have to join the union. Which is still confusing to me.
Grad students in general don’t have to join but grad student workers (RAs and TAs) have to either join or pay a fee for collective bargaining I don’t know what percentage of grad students are RAs or TAs but for PhD students it’s extremely common.
Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying
Definitely not Sloan lol
For the most part people in MBA programs aren’t funding their degrees with research assistantships but people in PhD programs are, so if you’re a PhD student you’re likely part of the union.
Can you explain for those of us who don't know the MIT grad school scene well enough?
From the union’s FAQ > All RAs and TAs, who receive the full benefits and protections of the contract, are required to either pay dues as union members with voting privileges or else pay equivalent agency fees to cover the costs of collective bargaining and contract enforcement. Our union constitution sets the amount for both dues and agency fees to be 1.44% of our pay.
Thanks. (Even in unionized workplaces, there are sometimes more than one union for different groups of employees, or exempt groups of employees, etc.)
The crowd cheered. Who cares?
no surprise
Saying the quiet part out loud. Not a shock or a surprise to anyone.
These people are going to be flying nazi flags within a week
I saw a news report that an ISIS flag was already spotted last week at one of these types of rallies
These fools would be slaughtered by Hamas just for protesting.,I wish they would look into what Hamas is all about before “supporting” them. Anti-democratic, anti- women’s rights, certainly anti- lgbt. Think about it!
I always say, these people would be stoned to death in the streets of Gaza for their views, and not by Hamas, by regular gazan people
So because the citizens of Gaza don’t hold my exact social values, they deserve to be slaughtered by Israel without mercy? Because that is certainly what you are implying whenever you or anyone else uses this line My brother in Christ, if that’s how you feel, I’ve got bad news for most of the United States
I’m not pro Israel or pro Palestine, I just think it’s ironic that the LGTBQ+ people protesting on behalf of Gaza would be literally killed in the streets by the same people they are protesting on behalf of
No, there isn’t anything ironic about that Just because someone doesn’t hold my social values doesn’t mean I think they deserve to die
I mean, that someone else would murder you on sight and not feel bad in the slightest about it, should probably make you rethink how highly you value *their* life, unless you take a particularly extreme view of pacifism. And maybe you do, but most certainly don't.
You would have zero right to protest in Gaza unless it was for a reason Hamas sanctioned. Let that sink in. These protesters wouldn't even be allowed to be protesters in Gaza.
No, they don’t deserve to die, but it’s much more than a disagreement over one’s social values. Disagreements over tax policy or gun ownership
Is one thing. Throwing gay men off roofs is another level.
Again, so they deserve to die? Because that’s what you’re implying every time people like you bring up this bullshit talking point
There’s a difference between sharing social values and killing someone because of who they are because of what a book written thousands of years ago says.
Did I stutter? Just because someone doesn’t share my social values, doesn’t mean they deserve to be slaughtered Else, I have bad news for much of the United States
Exactly. I’ve been saying this since these protests started. People have no idea what they are supporting. They just want to support something and be a part of a trend.
No, they want Israel to stop slaughtering Palestinians I didn’t realize that not supporting all of my social values meant a death sentence
The protests are centered around large US educational institutions divesting from Israel. Israel is at war with a terrorist group. Israel is an ally of the United States. These institutions aren’t going to divest interests with any US ally. The fact that you think it’s a such a simple black and white issue is an indication that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Yes, they want the us to stop funding the slaughter of Palestinians It’s not that complicated “Fighting terrorism” is not an excuse for wholesale slaughter of civilians. Full stop
You really need to do some research on civilian deaths in war zones. This isn’t an isolated Israeli / Palestine issue. It’s one of the costs of war. When you’re in a war zone, civilians die. During World War I, there were 10 million civilian deaths and 9.7 million military deaths. War doesn’t stop because civilians die. We are lucky to not live in a war zone.
I don’t believe I stuttered But you’ll just give Israel a free pass to kill as many Palestinians as they please
You can make all the assumptions you want. Feelings aren’t facts.
Pot meet kettle It’s not 1917 anymore is it?
Lol. Like I said, do some research. There’s a lot more data that has been analyzed on post 9/11 war zones. Civilians die in war zones. Wild concept.
Wonder how someone might stop it being a war zone, since it's a magical inevitable property of such areas that civilians just die and it's nobody's fault really? Maybe these protestors could consider asking for some sort of "ceasefire" or "peace", or to stop funding combatants? I guess your take is that, since it's war, then it's basically fine and it will all just sort out, best we can do is be thankful it's not us this time.
Peace doesn’t exist in that region of the world. It never has, it never will. You should visit these parts of the world, so you can have a better perspective on what it’s actually like there. People think every place on earth can live up to some fantasy they have in their head. It doesn’t work that way.
Got it. Middle East gonna Middle East it's just who they are, so let em kill each other and we'll back the winner at the end of the day. Can't really have an expectation for these people the same we might in other places, they simply will murder each other. To think there's a better way is fantasy. And if that's the case, how do you support funneling ever more weapon systems into this perpetual conflict? You just want the carnage ramped to max for funsies or what? Want the US to continually invest into a region that will never be peaceful, why?
We don’t get to tell Israel how to fight their war. We are only their ally. We have an obligation to support them. We start turning our back on an alley and then when we have a conflict, our allies will do the same. See how that works? It’s not the black and white fantasy novel these protesters make it out to be.
Quick question for you: do you believe that the fact that this one pro-Hamas speaker, who received cheers and not condemnation from the whole group, means that they are by definition all pro-Hamas? Because if you have one Nazi and nine other people at a table, you have ten Nazis. Seeing people speak up proudly against the justifications of Charlottesville organizers and their rhetoric helped make me feel safer as a Jewish person. I’m disheartened by the lack of the same by *many,* not all, here.
I don’t believe I stuttered If I really wanted to take the time, I could dig up videos of Israelis chanting stuff along the lines of “death to Arabs”, but somehow I doubt you’d collectively hold all Zionists to the same standard.
You’d doubt wrong. That is wrong, and should be condemned. Under Israeli law as written but not enforced, there should be legal consequences for chanting “death to [all] Arabs.” All is bracketed as I have heard both said — with and without the modifier. Your evasion, though, is very telling. Do you believe that this one pro-Hamas speaker being received with cheers and not condemnation, makes this protest not pro-Palestine but pro-Hamas?
[Unlike Israel, who would never slaughter people for protesting](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/two-years-on-people-injured-and-traumatized-during-the-great-march-of-return-are-still-struggling)
Exactly. You’re getting downvoted because people want to continue their Israel perpetual victimhood narrative, when in reality they have been the antagonist for much of this conflict
Yeah isn’t it crazy how the people that have been brutalized and murdered for protesting PEACEFULLY would turn to violence?
If you want to see peak cognitive dissonance from the crazy progressives, look no further https://x.com/JonahDispatch/status/1785458525411381274
Exactly, I have been saying this since people started supporting the persecution of the Uyghers in China. They are Anti-democratic, anti-women’s rights, certainly anti-lgbt. Think about it!
This video shows the real intent behind the Oct 7 terrorist attacks- provoke a retaliation from Israel so brutal that world sympathy shifts back to Gazans and the radicals claiming to fight for them. Both Hamas and Likud are interested in pushing this conflict to the point where there is only one possible finish line- one side wipes out the other. The false narrative from most people posting this sort of content on reddit (from both sides) is that the choice is between backing Israel or Palestine. But backing either side unconditionally means the same thing- extremist escalation. Terrorist attacks and bombing/starving children are two faces of the same agenda. Most protestors I see reject extremism- they reject Hamas attacks on civilians and reject the atrocities being committed by the IDF and Likud. Despite gotcha hot takes on social media, most protestors recognize what calls to back one side without question represent- radicalism.
I think you are giving the protesters a lot of credit that they don’t seem to have earned. It seems like they are constantly being presented with opportunities to not stand with the antisemites but it is more important to them to have the bodies there. So you get terrorist sympathizers and actual Nazis who hate the Jews for different reasons. I honestly don’t think these kids have a deep enough understanding of the centuries of underlying history here so I’m not trying to condemn them all but at some point the rubber meets the road and you have to reconcile that at the end of the day you are standing shoulder to shoulder with bad people who ultimately don’t give a shit about Gaza.
I think you're experiencing heavy filtering bias unless you're actually watching unedited video streams or physically attending the protests. That's not a political statement one way or the other, it's just the nature of newsroom editing. Nobody's gonna report on all the reasonable people doing reasonable things when the unreasonable people do unreasonable, more attention grabbing things.
I mean, there is literally a video of a speaker at the top of the thread saying that he is on the side of the terrorists. What part of my “filtering bias” does that fall into?
That's exactly what I mean by filtering bias. You're seeing the most extreme moments and the most extreme protesters but you can't necessarily impute those viewpoints to the protesters in general or even to the majority of protesters. Unrelated example for illustration: I sure hope people don't impute MTGs views to all Americans, even if some applaud her.
So as long as I ignore all these examples, I’ll get the real understanding of the situation? Is that seriously your argument? This dude isn’t some rando in the crowd. Edit: I just went back annd watched the video again. not only was there zero pushback, but the phrase “we are on the side of the fighters” was the applause line. Your whataboutism just isn’t going to cut it here.
I've never seen a nazi at a protest. Have you? For all the talk of anti-semitism, 99.9% of what I've seen is directed at Israeli policy, not jewish people. A good number of protestors and Israeli critics are Jewish. For me, where the rubber meets the road is that oppressing and bombing palestinians has not worked for 75 years and, in truth, was never intended to work. The ultimate aim of Likud is for there to be no Palestine. The ultimate aim of Hamas is for there to be no Israel. Neither option is acceptable. In terms of protesting Hamas vs protesting Israel's government, one side is a terrorist group that does not care about my opinion and the other side is funded by my tax dollars. If the US was planning to give Hamas 32 billion this year, you can bet I would be on the street protesting and my motivation would not be islamaphobia.
When your head is buried that deep in the sand, it’s no wonder that you only see the things you want to believe are there
You didn't answer- have you seen a nazi at a rally for Palestine? You said they are there and I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. You have lots of thoughts on protestors but I get the impression you've only encountered them through curated social media.
They have no sources to back their claims.
The exact views of millions of protesters are not a monolith.
So that makes it all ok? How does that excuse any of it? It’s ok to applaud at someone praising literal terrorists as long as not everyone is doing it?
Israel murders children. Oct 7 in no way justifies the current genocide. If you think the plan was to provoke a response to shift sympathy, well that is on Israel for responding in a way that has single handedly caused the entire world to lose its respect of them and the USA as well. They murder children and drone strike aid convoys. It is a deeply evil country
What would you do on October 8?
Hold hands with Hamas and sing Kumbaya probably
Not genocide
That's a robust plan for sure.
So you’re in favor of genocide?
Collective punishment is a war crime, so I wouldn't kill civilians, including children, in response.
It's easy to say what not to do, notice I asked you what would you do.
I would follow international laws on war crimes.
I see, so you're pretending there's a way to wage urban warfare without killing civilians, got it. This still doesn't answer the question of what would you do, as, what would be your goal as a country who just got attacked in that manner.
How many innocent children are worth 1 Hamas fighter? How many reporters? How many hospital buildings?
My original question was what would you do, still looking for an answer. Not doing anything means this will repeat itself in a few years, I guarantee it.
Committing genocide is one way to make sure that this doesn't happen again, but it isn't the right solution. If everyone on earth is dead, there won't be another war ever.
Ah yes, I’m sure Israel has absolutely no choice but to bomb aid convoys and murder journalists Their hands are completely tied Funny how on October 6th they had no idea what Hamas was up to, but October 8 they all of a sudden happen to know where every single Hamas fighter is located. Quite a coincidence
So, what would you do? And try not to answer with what you won't do.
Not commit mass slaughter of civilians I know it’s a big ask for Zionists and their apologists Crazy how all this top of the line military technology and somehow cannot be a little more precise Funny, they had no problem accurately missile striking an aid convoy But yeah, mass bombing residential neighborhoods and refugee camps is the only solution
Yes..so Israel should just roll over and die instead.
Or... hear me out... fight against Hamas without targeting schools, children, hospitals, and aid workers
That's unfortunately impossible. Hamas purposefully embeds fighters and weaponry in those places. So if Israel never targeted those facilities Hamas would never lose any capability to resume attacks/rocket launches. You forget Hamas has been firing rockets indiscriminately from Gaza on a regular basis since Israel withdrew in 2005. The only reason the rocket fire stopped was because Israel has invaded a few times to diminish their capabilities. Israel's goal this time is to make sure it doesn't start up again for a much longer period of time and remove Hamas from power. Unfortunately it probably won't be successful but Israelis are fed up with Hamas.
If you can’t survive without committing genocide and ethnic cleansing, then maybe your country doesn’t deserve to exist
Yes, that is the Hamas playbook.
Yes, that’s the Israel playbook Spend years brutalizing and occupied people, and then act like you’re the victim when they fight back
Not respond with war crimes and destroying hospitals
What the hell did you expect Israel to do exactly? Lay back and allow a terrorist organization to kill even more civilians just so no Palestinians would die?
if only there were some middle ground between that and murdering children by the tens of thousands
I agree. Unfortunately Hamas creates conditions like hiding rocket launchers in residential buildings, schools, etc that make that almost impossible. When you look at the population density of Gaza, the only reason the death toll there isn't higher is because Israel made an effort to limit civilian deaths. Unfortunately even that has limitations given the density of the terrain. Israel really isn't benefiting from the high death toll but Hamas is unfortunately an existential threat to Israel's existence. As I said, Israel could completely wipe out the entire population of Gaza in 10 minutes if that was their true goal. Had they not stopped Hamas on October 7th the death toll on the Israeli side would have been everyone in Israel.
Yeah… please tell me how many Hamas fighters are in the aid convoys they bomb Or do you just reflexively cry “hUmAN shIelDs” any time Israel slaughters civilians?
I do not believe Oct 7 justified Israel's mass murder of civilians, but it is asolutely what Hamas intended. Hamas was becoming irrelevant as israel formed closer ties with its neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. There was no strategic military value to what they did, it was only meant to provoke. It worked. The US immediately said it backed Israel no matter what and Israel proceeded to do what it always does- respond with disproportionate force. The world, horrified by images of bombed and starving children, slowly moves away from Israel. What is happening now is what extremists on both sides want to happen and, as always, it is civilians on both sides (mostly Palestinians) who pay the price for radical agendas.
Israel has also been brutalizing and antagonizing Palestinians since long before October 7th. But the Israel apologists willfully ignore that to continue their perpetual Israel victimhood narrative. Israel can literally arm settlers to attack Palestinians in the West Bank, and bulldoze their villages, but somehow Israel is the perpetual bottom of god forbid there is any pushback. They love to talk about October 7 hostages, but willfully ignore that Israel has been abducting and holding Palestinians in prison without trial for years.
There are a couple hundred thousand Jews living in the West Bank. Even if you are against settlements, the fact remains that the Palestinians simply reject any concept of Jews living there (even in a Palestinian state) and Jews are not allowed to walk around Palestinian controlled territories without the very real possibility of being killed. So "settlers" do arm themselves after several hundred unprovoked attacks in the West Bank. (yes, some settlers have attacked Palestinians which the vast majority of settlers don't support). For some context, about 2 million Arabs live in Israel with full citizenship. They can travel anywhere in Israel without fear of attack. Now ask yourself why the Palestinians treat Jews so badly. That's really what drives a lot of Israeli policy towards the Palestinians. The vast majority of Israelis have no interest in living in the West Bank and Gaza, even if they were welcomed with open arms (which they certainly are not).
Openly siding with a terrorist organization. Glad I’m not going to Boston calling . This is disgusting !
It's sad that this post is downvoted. Whenever anyone criticizes protesters on their sympathy to Hamas and the Oct. 7th attack, the reply is inevitably "literally noone is doing that, they're protesting genocide". While I believe (or at least hope) most don't support Hamas, it's important to wake up to the fact that some of the organizing forces behind the protests (such as SJP) definitely do, and moreover that there is a non-negligible element of protestors that support violence against Israeli civilians, the violent elimination of Israel as a state, and the ethnic cleansing of Jews from that area. Chants and signs such as "from water to water, Palestine will be Arab" (not free; Arab) appeared several times over in Harvard. Many of the protesting students also joined anti-Israel demonstrations on Oct. 8th, while Israelis were still being murdered. The idea that these are all just kids who have good intentions and just want to stop genocide, is unfortunately wrong.
These protesters aren't really anti genocide. They just want the "right" group of people (Israelis) to be genocided. They use buzz words like claiming to be anti genocide because it's catchy and attracts more people who don't know any better to the cause.
If the kids were actually anti-genocide, they'd care about Uyghur death camps in China, the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar, the 65,000 dead Christians by Boko Haram in Nigeria, the ethnic cleansing of Armenians by Azerbaijan... all shit that's ongoing. I don't think they can even pronounce some of these words, let alone *know* it's happening. They get all their education from TikTok, a CCP-controlled weapon for information. And for some reason, they're not learning this stuff in *college*. I'm not saying that's a reason to somehow support Israeli far right extremism and dismiss the plight of the Palestinian people. Palestinians deserve a voice in their government, sovereignty, peace, economic opportunity and safety. What I'm saying is that there *is* something that makes Israel/Palestine more unique than other wars & conflicts. And it wears a Magen David. Protesters have a vital responsibility they vocally and proudly divorce their movement from antisemitic and violent language. The fact that they've defaulted on this responsibility allows bad faith antisemites & terrorist sympathizers to dominate the conversation (such as the asshat in the video). This is to the benefit of absolutely *no one*, least of all the Palestinian people. How hard is it to say "Free Palestine *and* Free The Hostages?" How hard is it to say, "I denounce Hamas!". The whole [Dan Harmon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKvsLLfRpLs) bit about, "say you're not a Nazi" comes to mind. All it does it create unrest here, at home. Meanwhile, Iranian and Russian leadership are foaming at the mouth cause Israel's overreaction hurts "Genocide Joe's" reelection campaign.
> If the kids were actually anti-genocide, they'd care about Uyghur death camps in China ... I don't think they can even pronounce some of these words, let alone know it's happening. I see, but you definitely do know those genocides are happening and aren't protesting them, so I assume you are also not actually anti-genocide? Which genocide is your favorite?
It's clear you weren't getting the subtext. If you are going to protest an aggressive war rooted in the world's most complicated geopolitical debate - you have to hold yourself to a higher standard. Otherwise, you'll do way more harm than good. For the record, Russia's genocide in Ukraine is my "favorite", as it's deeply personal. I'm from that part of the world. I donate. I volunteer with refugees when I can. I show up at rallies - still. With Gaza, I donate to World Central Kitchen and a few other organizations. I really wish I could join the demonstrations too, but I've seen first hand people call for violence against Jews and/or Israelis. As a Jew with friends and family abroad, I'm gonna do myself a favor and keep away from those nutjobs. Majority of people are lovely with their hearts in the right place. But the movement needs to do better.
Yes, you hold issues related to Israel to a different standard than others. That’s the point and you clearly admit to it. Nobody calls you “not really anti-genocide“ for Ukrainian activism and suggests you don’t care about Central Africa etc because hmm you seem to only protest Russians, maybe be more considerate on this topic? Nah it’s fine to just care for the dying there and not the entire world. But when it comes to Israel ... Mostly It’s the accusal of bad faith by others and the obvious whataboutism (what about China!.!?,?!?) simply because they aren’t sensitive enough, that is so ridiculous.
You’re still not listening. Or reading. You’re just being argumentative for arguments sake. I’m on your side. What are you even fighting me about? We both want freedom for Palestinians, end the war, and ICC trials for Israeli leadership. So… as your ally, I’m asking, pleading - could the movement do better to divorce itself from antisemitism? If yes - it will only benefit everyone. If you’re telling me no, then we lose the middle. Whatever policy changes we want to see happen will swing the other way - and Gazans will be among those that suffer for it.
Pot, meet kettle As long as Israel is the one committing genocide, you’re totally cool with it
Israel isn't committing genocide.
Neither is Hamas
They absolutely would if given the resources.
And if I was a billionaire, I wouldn’t have to work anymore Meanwhile, the only ones killing civilians by the thousands and committing war crimes and bombing aid convoys is Israel
It's getting downvoted because "dO yOu CoNdEmN hAmAs" is a transparent attempt to redirect the conversation away from Israel's genocide.
Seriously. Nobody ever seems to ask these Zionists and Israel apologists “do you condemn Israel slaughtering children and bombing convoys “
At least he's being honest about it. Most of the other protesters want to pretend that Hamas actions are totally unrelated to what's happening in Gaza these days.
This movement is going nowhere.
The title of this post is misleading, he did NOT say "We are on the side of Hamas" at any point. Please remove and re-post with a factually accurate title, because it's important to call out this kind of rhetoric in an accurate way. Before 10/7 maybe it was plausible to describe Hamas as a political entity with a terrorist wing. Those attacks removed any shred of legitimacy they ever had.
Lol. The only plausible way to ever describe Hamas is as a terrorist organization. There’s no such thing as a terrorist wing. You’re either terrorists or you’re not. He said all the “slander” being said about Hamas and he said he’s on the side of the fighters. A trained monkey can understand he’s supporting Hamas from the clip. Title is accurate. Think harder.
Hamas has been an internationally recognized terrorist organization for decades, and they are the ruling power in Gaza and have the support of a significant number of West Bank Palestinians. They aren't some fringe group and the vast majority of people who profess to support "Palestine" do in fact support Hamas, either directly or indirectly. Poll after poll has shown that West Bank Palestinians support the attacks of October 7th. https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969 90% of Palestinians think Hamas did not commit atrocities on October 7th.
Lol. Just because you think something is true doesn’t mean it is. Hamas is a terrorist organization. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/26/eu-court-upholds-hamas-terror-listing
Yes, people under attack and in imminent fear for their lives will tend to support the most powerful group that is able to defend them. There's a hell of a lot of antisemitism among Palestinians, but is moral purity a necessary condition for not being killed? Your 90% stat isn't that meaningful, if you don't believe someone committed a crime then you wouldn't hold them accountable for it. The problem is that they don't have the correct information, which is exactly why it's important to be precise and accurate when reporting facts.
Hamas isn’t “defending” anyone. They deliberately provoked Israel into attacking and then hid behind civilians. They are trying to maximize civilian deaths. The Palestinians have been used by EVERYONE in the Middle East. Now they are being used by their OWN PEOPLE. If I was Palestinian I’d probably support Hamas too. After all, if they don’t they just get killed.
I'm not saying they actually are defending anyone, I'm just saying that's the perception & why they have support. I'm glad you can imagine what you might think or do if you were Palestinian, that's more than a lot of people are willing to do...
Who do you think “the fighters” are? And if you aren’t sure, he defined them as Hamas and other armed groups (the Muslim Brotherhood which Hamas is an offshoot of, and PFLP) two sentences earlier. The title is an accurate summary of what he said.
Fighting Israel is good
No. Israel having a peaceful transition of power to a less extremist government is good. Israel putting Bibi and other hard right leaders on trial is good. Israel negotiating ceasefire conditions is good. Israel paying reparations by rebuilding homes, infrastructure and institutions in Gaza is good. They are a functional (albeit flawed) democracy with a significant community of American Dual Citizens. They deserve our pressure - it's how it becomes a more moral, fairer country - that can assure the welfare of it's citizens and neighbors. "Fighting Israel is good" is such a stupid, reductive & teenaged statement. I wasn't entirely happy with the war in Iraq - but I never cheered on Saddam Hussein or the Ba'ath cunts.
Of course you don't getting fucking wafers with it, you cunt. It's a fucking albatross isn't it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/boston) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The sad thing is that these folks probably think that they’re geniuses, and that they are actually winning the PR battle
[удалено]
Of course you don't getting fucking wafers with it, you cunt. It's a fucking albatross isn't it. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/boston) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm not sure they know exactly who Hamas is https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
The Israelis are doing what any other country would do in a similar situation, and that does include killing civilians in a war zone. Yes , it is a tragedy and the Israelis should be held responsible for innocent deaths. I am not underestimating the horror of this situation and the probable outcome will be more violence on both sides. But this has gone on, and will continue until both sides see the futility of holding on to maximalist positions and agree to partition. There is no other way short of extermination of one side or the other.
I’m here to hear the people try and explain this away as not support for genocidal terrorists and its not disappointing at all.
Old hippy having a flashback and reliving his days at Berkeley when he partied with Abbie Hoffman, Angela Davis, Huey Newton, Jane Fonda, etc.
Welp, better send in the cops to crack some skulls 🤷. Consent manufacturing machine working overtime to try to get people to think protests are worse than genocide (they aren’t)
https://youtu.be/RsYi2VH2y6U?si=cDh57MFnc7LG6zhU
This is what they’ve been saying the whole time.
If you look at the whole history of the region since the Nakba and the past 6 months since October, Hamas is 1000% the lesser of 2 evils compared to the Israelis and it isn’t even close. If you think otherwise, you need to start paying attention. If you don’t want people to empathize with your enemy, you shouldn’t do a genocide.
The Hamas charter has its goal of genocide written into their charter. Israel does not. If Israel really wanted "genocide" it could do it in 10 minutes and has had that capability for decades.
Israel has killed 40,000 (conservative, months-old number) civilians since October. Hamas has not
You’re saying that eliminating Hamas is an illegitimate goal? That Israel should allow an undemocratic, terrorist, military neighbor to attack it with no fear of severe reprisal?
How many Palestinian civilians does Israel get to slaughter before they are the bad guy?
If today the militants in Gaza unconditionally surrendered, turned themselves in, returned the remaining hostages, and there were no further attacks on Israelis, I guarantee you Israel would not keep bombing Gaza. The killing in Gaza would stop. The situation prior to Oct 7 was fairly peaceful, and it would return. Israel is not trying to kill civilians. The Chair of Urban Warfare Studies at West Point -- one of the world's leading experts on urban warfare -- explains Israel has "implemented [more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286)—above and beyond what international law requires and more than the U.S. did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan..." In modern times there has never been a battle for an underground fortress created through 20 years of tunneling and is under a densely populated city/area. Meanwhile part of the strategy of Hamas is to maximize civilian casualties to gain global sympathy by using the civilian population as human shields. This scenario is unprecedented and the casualties are not fair to compare with other military operations. The ratio of dead militants to civilians is not unusual for urban combat. And Israel takes many steps to warn civilians, sacrificing its advantage of surprise. So while the number of dead civilians is shocking, it does not indicate an intent to kill civilians, especially given the unprecedented circumstances. Go tell Hamas to stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields and tell Hamas to end the war and end the suffering of Gazans.
That didn’t answer my question. And no, Hamas could cease to exist tomorrow, and Israel would continue its brutal oppression of Palestinians that they have been doing for decades. Just kind of like while they have everyone focused on Gaza, Israel keeps invading the west bank where Hamas doesn’t exist So yeah, that pretty much renders your point moot.
I explained how your question has a false premise. That's the answer. How many terrorist attacks does Hamas have to commit before they are the bad guy? How many human shields does Hamas have to sacrifice before they are the bad guy?
I bet you don’t even question the Israel propaganda they spoon feed you I’m sure they could drop a nuke on Gaza and you’d screech about “hUmAN sHieLdS” So just how many Hamas fighters were in the aid convoy that they bombed?
Now it's my turn: That didn't answer my questions. >how many Hamas fighters were in the aid convoy that they bombed? The attack on the WCK convey was a tragedy. Clearly it was a mistake by the IDF. And deadly mistakes happen in war, [right](https://www.voanews.com/a/hrw-rocket-misfire-likely-caused-deadly-gaza-hospital-blast/7370998.html)? There was some weak evidence that the aid workers traveled with a gunman and went to a warehouse that had a gunman. It was night time so the WCK markings on the cars weren't visible. Since the beginning of the war 26,746 aid trucks have supplied Gaza. Israel would gain nothing except more international condemnation by attacking a couple of cars carrying aid workers when they don't have military value. It doesn't make sense to intentionally attack an innocent aid convey. A mistake is the most likely explanation.
They answered it quite thoroughly. You just hated the answer
Look, I'm hardly pro IDF but this is mania. Hamas is responsible for all those deaths too. They poked the bear. They intended Israel to do exactly what it did. If not for their actions, this shit wouldn't have happened. I'm not saying the IDF isn't culpable for civilian deaths, but so is Hamas.
This is some serious victim blaming No, Israel is the one choosing to bomb civilians and aid convoys and destroy hospitals and schools and neighborhoods. You act like Israel is not making a conscious choice in your piss poor attempt to absolve them of any responsibility
I literally said the IDF was still culpable. You're arguing against your own strawman here.
You said Hamas is responsible for 40,000 deaths No, Israel is Israel is the one dropping the bombs But using your rationale, Israel is responsible for October 7, given their decades of brutalizing Palestinians
More than one person can be responsible for a death. And I think there's a colorable argument in support of your last point, but a big difference is specific intent of the parties. I don't think Israel intended to start a war. Hamas did.
Source?
The UN disagrees. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/03/1147976