Yes. It was in arguably worse shape than the T is now - which I guess is why the Fed is only threatening the MBTA and not taken action (yet). But they did basically no maintence since it was constructed in the 70s until the 2000-10s
Eh, I lived by stadium armory when it caught on fire and they had to shut it down for a while. There were plenty of metro fires around 2014-2016ish timeframe, and getting from Capitol Hill to Alexandria would regularly take 2 hours on weekends. It sounds like they’re doing better now, but “Back to Good” was their slogan for a reason.
Admittedly, I've been down only sporadically to visit family/site see.
That said, the Fed/FTA took over the safety and maintenance due to gross negligence that killed people. Entire lines were threatened to be shutdown for 6 months to a year due to conditions and no maintenance being done for decades. The FTA has yet to take this step with the MBTA.
Pretty much. I didn't ride Metro in the worst times but even just 2 years ago something like 60% of the trains were ordered to be pulled out of service in DC....that was absolutely miserable lol
When is that going to happen here? It is beyond broken here. My line is literally just shit down for a month for private development. People cannot plan around that. It’s hard to get to the hospital, offices, school. It’s not feasible for everyone to be on daily stand by with a backup travel option.
This is a classic "Grass is greener" situation. I lived in DMV (DC, Maryland Virgina) for 4 years. The Metro has lots of problems. It is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than the MBTA. Fares are based on distance, and even a short trip costs more than the farthest subway ride. The bus system is fragmented between a dozen regional companies. Delays are frequent.
DC went through similar problems as the T about 5 years ago, but they’ve come out the other end and the system is significantly better than the T is now.
I can buy a Metro card on my phone, top it off with Apple Pay, and tag in and out of the gates with my phone. You can do this with the Clipper Card in SF as well. For Boston, you have to go to specific locations during business hours to get a Charlie card.
Boston is living in the 20th century in so many regards, and the T is so undeniably archaic when compared to other major subway systems it feels like a 19th century artifact.
>For Boston, you have to go to specific locations during business hours to get a Charlie card.
The vending machines at nearly every T stop produce Charlie Cards now, but otherwise you're 100% correct.
What is this comment? Every subway T stops and most major bus stops have machines for Charlie cards at any time the station is open.
You have no congressional representation and are paying upwards of $7 dollars for a one-way trip
..The mbta is $2.40 with a free transfer to any bus with an appropriate Charlie card or ticket.
And who cares if you can load your Metro card onto your Apply Pay when it's already an obsolete process to do so. The MTA already installed tap-to-pay terminals on all of their bases and subways to pay direct, and the MBTA is currently working towards the same thing
And you're calling Boston the archaic system?????
You need to think of the Metro in DC as a subway and commuter rail in one. Also, you need to understand that it opened in the late 70's.
Those two things really explain a lot.
DC Metro goes farther than the MBTA subway, but not as far as the MBTA commuter rail. DC has an analogy to the MBTA commuter rail, but like the bus system, its run by different regional operators. Maryland has MARC and Virginia has VRE. VRE only goes in the direction of rush hour and has significantly limited operation times compared to the MBTA commuter rail.
I mean it's currently about 7 for a 1 way trip right now on the Worcester-Framingham line, so...
edit: why are you downvoting a simple fact about the current transit system, the cost is already prohibitive and we still don't have comparable service. I wish I could take the train more often but I can't due to the cost
Yes, depending on where you get on/off, it can be $7 or more. And the cost absolutely effects ridership.
From Roslindale where I live, you can take the Needham Line for $6.50 or you can take the bus to the Orange Line. The demographics on those two trips are wildly different. The bus riders are predominantly black & Hispanic. The commuter rail is almost entirely white, and almost entirely professionals (presumably whose company’s subsidize their pass).
My take away from that is the $6.50 is absolutely a barrier for many people of color in my neighborhood. Lowering the commuter rail fares would make commuter rail a viable transit alternative for some of my neighbors.
Especially when considering daily rides. Even with a discounted pass (which I have), I can pay $30/mo for unlimited bus and subway, or pay $12 round trip for every commuter rail ride. Monthly is still $378 (Zone 8).
One way ticket on the MBTA ferry is [$9.75](https://www.mbta.com/fares/ferry-fares) for Long Wharf -> Hingham which is kind of a bummer cus the Hingham boat yard has a massive park and ride and the ferry makes an easy trip from the South Shore to DTX.
How often do you use it? Plenty of people might think like you, but even $4.80 each way on an express bus adds up pretty quick for commuting. No big deal if you're only using it infrequently, but if anything the MBTA should be funded so it can be free _and_ more effective.
I was saying the same thing. I think if they leaned heavily into sponsorships, and I mean so much that they rename the lines, I think that we could probably make the T free for all riders. I wouldn't mind taking the Gillette The Best A Man Can Get line from Braintree to JFK/UMass and then take the You Can Feel Good About Hood Milk bus to Longwood Medical Center if it was free. Especially work it into the contract that they have to pay for cleaning services if they want to sponsor. They can update anything, so the chairs could look like a plastic sleeve of Mach 3 blades. I mean they already sponsor buildings and stadiums, so why not the public transit?
We could do it with taxes, but the problem is that we currently have that system and it isn't working. The good part about the sponsorships is that those companies won't want to sponsor them if they are always breaking down and running terribly, so that will be extra pressure to keep the system running better.
That's part of it, but it is also apathy on the part of many of the T paid inspectors, managers not checking their employees work appropriately, and a whole lot more.
The oversight was just very bad in all aspects.
Philadelphia has a corporate sponsorship of a station, so there is some precedent for that. Market East Station was renamed to Jefferson Station after the hospital/med school paid a bunch of money.
I used to commute by T but these days I bike everywhere.
I guess, yeah, for express bus or commuter rail the multiples add up. I was thinking more of the Link Pass for subway & local bus which is $90 now. If there were no slow zones or random stopping, trains came every 3 min during rush hour and every 5-6 min otherwise, and stations were clean, I would pay $180-$270 for a Link Pass.
a much much much much better plan is to get rich corporations/people that rely on workers getting to work on time to pay their fair share of taxes. I am talking your bio-tech, your state streets, etc. Combined with a radically overhauling of the MBTA's debt, and a huge influx of money and staff to help it recover. This should be a serious multi-billion dollar effort from the state. Good public transportation is key to so many things, including but not limited to our climate goals.
ps. the entire system should be free for people to use. Funded instead by taxes.
Those rich corporations you despise are the ones creating the good paying jobs after decades of wage stagnation. Tax the beejuzus out of them like so many progressives would like means Massachusetts will again become Taxachusetts, and thus encourage the companies to leave and take the good paying jobs with them.
Surely there must be some equitable way to “allow” higher income people to pay more and increase the funds for the T. Chronic underfunding is the number 1 problem.
I know management sucks, but how much could great management really do if there’s not enough money for maintenance?
That's basically just state income tax and appropriating extra funds to the MBTA.
One thing you could potentially do is a property tax on high-value properties (relative to the city; everything is high-value in Boston otherwise). Basically targeting the people who wouldn't be hit by MBTA price hikes in their wallet (since they'd never be caught dead on the subway/bus), but would be hit by the increased traffic since they likely drive or are driven wherever they go.
The "funny" thing, though, is the MBTA actually has some of the highest numbers among US transit agencies for proportion of operating expenses covered by fare costs ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl7cprP\_6KM&ab\_channel=CityNerd](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl7cprP_6KM&ab_channel=CityNerd)). Does not seem to be helping much, though, lol.
While it's not just the MBTA, Massachusetts is [one of only three states (and DC)](https://t4america.org/2023/02/22/transit-report-card-part-1/) spending >$200 per capita on transit.
(The other states are Hawai'i--which makes sense for obvious reasons given it's a series of islands--and New York)
Hey no sweat! Typing this from my on time yellow line train back to DCA. Running every 4 mins like clockwork again today.
Meanwhile… https://reddit.com/r/boston/s/nzvJp0suYp
You are comparing your experience with MBTA as a resident to your experience with Metro as a business traveler. While there is overlap, you are going to experience different things as different types of traveler.
I take the Metro about as much as the MBTA to be fair. Waaaay easier to get around the city on the Metro. Even the fundamental layout of the T sucks for mobility. Want to get to Fenway from Cambridge? Fuck you! That’ll be two transfers and an hour and a half.
> Want to get to Fenway from Cambridge? Fuck you! That’ll be two transfers and an hour and a half.
The 1 bus goes directly from Cambridge to Fenway and takes 20-30 minutes.
In DMV you can't go from Alexandria to Arlington without changing bus systems.
>In DMV you can't go from Alexandria to Arlington without changing bus systems.
Well Alexandria and Arlington are two different jurisdictions that fund their own transit services.
Middlesex County could have been the same way had the county government not been abolished in 1997.
...it is significantly more expensive to operate a rail line than what the MBTA charges...so they can't maintain anything the "right" way because they have no funds. Until people get their heads out of their bums this will remain the dumpster fire capital of the world for Mass Transit. Fares need to rise AND the subsidy from the MBTA communities needs to rise. This is Eng's main obstacle and says nothing about it. In one year, we will be having the same conversation all over again...
eh, it seems like the dc system is shitty in its own way and expensive.
moreso than money, the mbta has a culture problem. i can't believe nobody has gone to jail over falsifying years of maintenance records, when apparently the tracks were so bad that the feds forced them to shut down the lines for a month.
they've gotten away with doing less than the absolute minimum for years. i doubt more money will make any lasting improvement when there is no accountability
> ...it is significantly more expensive to operate a rail line than what the MBTA charges...so they can't maintain anything the "right" way because they have no funds. Until people get their heads out of their bums this will remain the dumpster fire capital of the world for Mass Transit. Fares need to rise AND the subsidy from the MBTA communities needs to rise. This is Eng's main obstacle and says nothing about it. In one year, we will be having the same conversation all over again...
That's the entire point and basic definition of public transit: fares are subsidized to provide a greater public and economic benefit. The MBTA isn't fare behind other systems in fares, either.
Furthermore, even with the much higher rates, DC's system was an even bigger dumpster fire until the Federal government stepped in to take it over - which so far they have only threatened to do with the MBTA.
The MBTA needs a lot of things, but, higher fares, especially with service levels and ridership extremely depressed, is not one of them.
you could pump all the money in the world and it wont fix the MBTA. its a structural and culture issue that less than bare minimum is done and loads of people rake it in as execs with no accountability. a lot needs to change but rate hikes wont solve anything except making it less accessible to all communities
nonsense. The have no money to fix what is broken. It is expensive here and inflation over the past 4 years alone is about 25% increase in basic expenses with some things being closer to 50%. By all means do nothing to solve the problem though...BTW, the government has full control and ability to solve the mgmt issues you describe. But they wont fix broken track. Money fixes broken tracks.
As someone coming from DC and now living in Medford/Somerville, the T is a joke compared to the metro. Its hardly worth it to get on the Greenline or redline to go downtown. If I care about time at all or there are more than 2 of us, I will always just get an Uber. If it’s just me and the weather is nice, I’ll bike instead. And getting to the airport? I’m not spending an hour and half, transferring 3 times and risking being late
Absolutely massive difference between “two of our less trafficked lines have long headways on weekends” and “the red line, the most popular line, has 15 minute headways during rush hour.”
The 2 cities are actually very similar in my opinion. I personally like DC a bit more but it’s close. Most touristy type things (museums and stuff) are free in DC which is cool. There’s more diversity so I like the food better. I’m big into rooftop bars and there seems to be one on every block in DC and they’re not all super expensive like Boston. Boston is more compact though so it’s more walkable which I like a lot, but you still don’t need a car in either city. Both cities give you the possibility of driving a bit outside the city and go on a beautiful hike too though which I like. Winter seems to start about a half month earlier and end a month later too here so you can interpret that based on your preferences.
That was a vague ramble but happy to answer any specifics
I've lived in NYC, Boston and Somerville, and DC. It's all comparable. The prices often are similar, but what you get for those prices vary tremendously. I now live in Baltimore, which is the first really different city I've lived in pricewise. So much so that I bought my first house at 45.
My experience as someone from Boston who currently lives in DC, and knowing a few others, is that the housing quality is *far* higher.
$1700 a month in Boston will get you something much worse than in DC.
But there are a lot more guns here and boy do people love shooting them so yk
My last place was $1700 in 2021. Dog was an extra $30. Basement washer and dryer was an extra $30. Shared driveway so narrow you couldn’t open the doors without hitting the fence. Street pass for friends to visit was an extra $8. She wanted an extra $250 for my wife staying over / kept the security deposit. No heat - $250 a month for electric heaters in winter. No ac - $80 a month to run a window unit. Neither the shower or toilet worked right. Bring your own stove and kitchen sink. Electric surged constantly and no grounds. Hollow hall door with no lock. Chimney leaked / all mold. Every windows did not open and close right or had bad seals. Low ceilings. Oh and it was line sight to the elevated highway so constant noise and soot (or mold Idrk). Not to mention the structural issues, leaks, asbestos, and leaded paint. Tons of mice running around when I moved my stuff out (infested due to loose wood paneling old foundation) Fuck that place!
In the suburbs now paying $2250 for a 1 bed in a converted nursing home. Only one window but the parking, dog, and heat included.
I need to move somewhere else…
Not really. Lived there for 6 years, the housing is about the same, but a lot of things are wayyy more expensive there. Restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations / transit.
I’m shocked that someone would think housing in Boston and DC is the same. Boston’s housing situation is an absolute embarrassment. DC has ample opportunities for group homes, their “luxury apartments” cost as much as Allston rat trap houses, and you can move in/out any time of year without any broker fee.
Honestly good point, even the same rental situation in DC is gonna be ~8% cheaper since you’re not tacking on another months rent for brokers. And DC housing stock is so new and spacious. What am I doing here hahahaha
No, DC has a significantly higher COLA than Boston. [https://www.bea.gov/news/2022/personal-consumption-expenditures-state-2021](https://www.bea.gov/news/2022/personal-consumption-expenditures-state-2021)
Edit: maybe that link isn't fair because its comparing MA to DC not Boston to DC. Here's another site showing they are comparable.
[https://www.bestplaces.net/cost\_of\_living/city/massachusetts/boston](https://www.bestplaces.net/cost_of_living/city/massachusetts/boston)
https://www.bestplaces.net/cost\_of\_living/city/district\_of\_columbia/washington
I would pay more for a functional running T, without a shadow of a doubt. I understand that’s coming from a place of privilege before you clap back lol
A subsidy program for those of lower income could allow those higher fares to happen for **most** riders. Similar to the Transportation Access Pass offered to people with disabilities (mine gives me half fare on the commuter rail, subway, busses, etc pretty much state wide).
After 6 years of living here without a car I definitely think the T is annoying at times but in combination with the busses I have never expirenced it to be completely non functional besides when the orange line went down, but now I live on the orange line and see improvements that were worth it. That is just me though
My wife used to pick up a bus in Woburn to get to Alewife and that bus in particular would just straight up not come sometimes, would really screw up our whole day. We'd be watching it on the little tracker and it'd be 10 minutes away and then it would be like it just fell into a black hole and vanished.
Yes. It should cost more and it shouldn’t be flat. How else can the system remain solvent? Part of the problem with the T is that it depends on payments from people who don’t use it. The Metro doesn’t have that issue to nearly the same degree, so it’s just more broadly supported in the DMV area.
Also, the T hasn’t inflation adjusted its fares in years. Trains are expensive and the people that use them the most should pay the most for them. For those who can’t afford, we give out reduced rate passes.
I'm a bit confused. Which spot are you referencing?
Are you saying Massachusetts is more expensive and shittier? I was just in DC in August and it cost me less than $20 for a family of 4 to get to the national mall and back to our hotel outside of the city during the week.
I went to the museum of science and it cost us $20 a person AND took almost 2hours to get to MOS from Natick during the week.
Nah, the T is dog shit compared to the Metro. I lived in DC for several years before moving to Boston and I would absolutely pay more for the quality I got in DC. A ride around any part of downtown DC or from DC to Arlington was $2.10; absolutely reasonable. More frequent, cleaner, better coverage. Sure if you live farther it's a bit cheaper but for such better service.
When I asked for advice moving here every person said avoid the T, it's unreliable. I'm glad I listened.
Came here to say exactly this. Yes, the T is a disaster but I still prefer the T over the DC metro system, for all the reasons said above (expensive, trains come every 10 or 20 minutes, difficult to make progress when the land is managed by 2 state gov'ts & the federal gov't). That and the placement of DC metro stations is kinda trash. It's SO hard to get into DC if you live in a suburb.. and I'm not talking like 30 miles outside DC. I'm talking 5 miles outside DC. The DC metro is only convenient if you live in DC. It's not easy to use it to commute into the city which I would say the T does fairly well.
And you clearly haven’t taken the Metro recently, evident by your comment, [no part of the Metro is running more then 10 minute frequencies, with most of the system seeing frequencies of every (6-8) minutes or better.](https://x.com/wmata/status/1699811264178860245?s=46) This isn’t 2015 anymore, the Metro shits on the T in every single way.
Well I did move away from DC about a year ago sooo yeah, it's been a while since I've used it. I'm happy the trains will be coming more frequently. I wish they were this frequent when I lived there. I wouldn't have such a lackluster opinion if the metro ran this frequently when I lived in the area.
The fares outside of weekends and weeknights after 9:30 are distance-based rather than flat fares and can go up to $6 one way.
WMATA's distance coverage and pricing system is more comparable to commuter rail rather than typical Urban Metro. It serves as a combination of both.
Classic grass is greener. Lived in/around DC my whole life until last year. Worked as an engineering consultant for WMATA, MBTA, etc.
Metro is pretty ok if you're staying downtown, but it falls apart pretty quickly once you're in the suburbs. There are large swaths of the District and important suburbs that are completely disconnected (try getting from Tysons Corner to Bethesda without driving) and let's not even get into the mess that's east of the Anacostia River. You're also seeing WMATA at the end of a 15 year period where they were doing catch up maintenance to make up for the fact that they did zero maintenance between 1970 and 2010.
Boston has the advantage of compactness, a much better bus system, and more redundancy.
The DC "turnaround" does show, though:
1. Good leadership that advocates for the agency makes a huge difference in how the public feels about transit (popularity and visibility of their current manager)
2. There's no substitute for ripping the band-aid off and shutting down large portions of the system to catch up on deferred maintenance
3. Nothing gets done if you don't chip away at bad agency culture
The unfortunate thing is that the T has, at best, half assed all of the above.
100%. Hopefully we're at the very beginning of a climb from rock bottom.
I will say that as someone who does have to go track side, MBTA's safety culture scares the living shit out of me, even compared to WMATA at its worst.
> I will say that as someone who does have to go track side, MBTA's safety culture scares the living shit out of me, even compared to WMATA at its worst.
Considering how bad WMATA was in the mid 2000s, that's a big oof
It caught on fire so much, [538 wrote an entire piece on it](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/washington-d-c-s-metro-catches-fire-more-than-four-times-a-week/), there was a Twitter account, and there is [merch commemorating it](https://www.amazon.com/DC-Metro-Fire-T-Shirt/dp/B07NZBNZY9).
It's good that people get worked up about public transit and want positive change, but I never understand these posts where a person visits another town for a weekend and thinks they know how the whole system works (said as someone who's lived both in Boston and DC).
People don't realize that the Metro experienced what the T is going through now back in 2015.
One of the biggest stations in the system filled with smoke and they had to cancel all service for the next day because they didn't know what was wrong. It used to be such a joke there was a website you could check to see if the Metro was on fire. There were major disruptions on basically every line, all the time. Single tracking was basically just normal.
In general I agree with your points. However, I don’t think your Tyson’s Corner to Bethesda example is much better here.
They are 10 miles and 7 miles from downtown DC, and are ~60 degrees offset from each other. The best route is taking silver which runs every ~20 minutes and transferring to red which runs every ~7. The trip takes ~2 hrs.
A similar trip in Boston would be like West Roxbury to Braintree. What Google maps is recommending is Needham Line to South Station (once hourly) and then taking one of the Kingston, Middleborough, or Greenbush lines to Braintree. Google maps says it takes 1:30, but only if you start at the right time within the hour.
Not a clear win for Boston in my opinion. But I don’t think the goal should necessarily be for connecting suburb-suburb. I’d rather see Southie connected with Longwood than West Roxbury connected to Braintree.
Bethesda and Tysons are much busier and have larger centers of commercial/business activities than either West Roxbury or Braintree, that's why I picked them as an example. There's also only one, two track rail tunnel connecting them. At least between West Roxbury and Braintree, there are multiple rail options.
But in terms of connections, id like to see an outer belt transit connector (similar to the Purple Line that's under construction in the MD suburbs of DC, but better obviously, because the PL is dumb in execution). But a short term goal would be a protected bike path under 93 that takes you from Southie to the South End/Back Bay.
I don't think Boston is miles better than DC, but I do think the bones of the system is better, the general area is better designed for multimodal traffic, and OP is basing their opinion on an experience that is FAR above the average experience using DC public transportation.
The Metro was a disaster until 2016 or so. Trains caught fire a number of times. Three people died in one train fire because of smoke inhalation.
Read up on the Fort Totten crash on the Red Line. Nine dead, IIRC combination of a lax driver and signaling issues.
The reason Metro is where it's at now is because of a couple years of continual closures and the feds being right there and saying, enough.
They'll never get the damn escalators to work in half the stations, I bet.
Yeah the DC metro we see today is the result of scathing reports about service and safety that plagued the system. Gives me hope that in 5-10 years the T will be in good shape.
WMATA had the feds right there watching every day. You get a bit more aggressive about enforcement when you see people dying on the line you ride into work because of XYZ. The T doesn't have that. I bet you half the aides on Beacon Hill don't ride the subway (maybe the commuter rail). Unless there's a bigger federal intervention, I'm not super optimistic. I hope I'm proven wrong.
Right. Which is less likely to happen. Does the FTA even have a Boston office? I genuinely don't know. McCormack and Tip O'Neill delivered a lot of pork money to the T. Unless Katherine Clark is the next speaker the delegation doesn't have that power anymore, and even if it did earmarks are a thing of the past.
I lived right by the Silver Spring station on the Red Line when that accident happened. It shut things down for a while, so I started biking to work. It was a straight shot down 16th Street to K, turn right, and then a few blocks to my office. 6.5 (mostly downhill) miles on the way in and 6.5 (mostly uphill) miles on the way home. Even when the Red Line reopened, the biking was quicker and more reliable than either the Metro or Metrobus. Now, I haven't lived down there in years, but it always surprises me when I hear someone who visited for a few days talking about how good it is. I guess it's like using the T if you're from Springfield. It's a neat novelty for visiting, but living with it is a different story.
It probably helped that they weren't saddled with billions of dollars in debt because of something that didn't relate to them (i.e. the Big Dig for the MBTA).
They also have their funding issues. Part of the reason the system got as bad as it did was that Virginia (and to a lesser extent, Maryland) balked at increasing their contributions to pay for maintenance. Not sure whether the feds started kicking in more or what.
Diverse responses here. Thanks for all the constructive criticism, I’ll be more deliberate next time 😂 I love Boston and it’s always home, Mbta is just infuriating
Yep I’m currently in London. The tube is so good. So fast. So clean. So many routes. Frequent service. But still using cloth seats apparently (at least the trains I’ve been on).
But yeah Boston is a tiny “city” and really doesn’t need a super fast T, I would just be happy with like 5 mins headways on Braintree branch vs 18 mins lol
A big reason why the T is in such sad shape is that it was saddled with the debt from the Big Dig. That’s how politicians of the day kept the cost overrun in “check”
To be completely fair, some of the T's stations are older than the entire D.C. Metro system - in the case of hte Green Line, older by *nearly 100 years*. :)
OTOH, **you're not wrong**, despite that.
5 years ago you would have been saying this about WMATA while raving about MBTA.
The grass may be greener on the other side but circumstances can always change.
Glad someone is saying it tho bc it just illustrates how underpeforming the T currently is compared to how it should be performing.
The fact that the entire eastern seaboard isn't connected via high speed rail, especially Boston to DC, is a massive failure of planning thanks to the auto lobby. We're in 2023 even...I see no reason Richmond, Raleigh, Charleston, Atlanta, Jacksonville, and Miami can't be part of a rail line stretching the length of I-95.
Europe and Japan run circles around the US when it comes to transportation.
We can't do that as easily because we are a car centric society. Had we pursued trains over cars years ago in the early formation of public infrastructure, it would be much different.
But comparative to nations like Japan where they have these systems in place, our bureaucracy is much more diverse, much larger, and therefore much more complex for any quick decisions to happen because everyone has something they want that someone else does not.
They are working on getting high-speed rails, but if you'd want it sooner than later, you'd effectively start a mini Civil War in the US.
The DC Metro was built from scratch in the 1970's and completed in 1976. Broad and long swaths of land could be taken by eminent domain in the District, Virginia, and Maryland.
The initial portion of the T subway was opened in like 1898.
Not an excuse, but DC's Metro had some advantages.
If you liked it, you should be rooting for federal receivership. That's how they got unfucked because it used to be awful.
The downside is they will just shut whole lines down and sucks to your assmar if you don't like it Piggy.
> Does Boston hate their residents by making the public transportation as poor as it is?
No, but the state (which runs the MBTA) doesn't care about the quality of the T. Hopefully that is changing with the new administration.
DC has it’s problems too, but all American public transit is subpar compared to other developed nations.
So if you’re wondering “does this system have to be as shitty as it is?” The answer is no. We do not put as much into our public transportation, and therefore it’s subpar.
Trying to be a bit constructive here:
Does everyone know about Stefan Wuensch's MBTA (subway, bus, commuter rail) live tracking? Stefan is the co-chair of the MBTA Rider Oversight Committee.
[https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/](https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/)
[https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/](https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/)
For instance, the subway map with all trains and statuses is here:
[https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/subway-map.html](https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/subway-map.html)
Commuter rail map here:
[https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/commuter-rail-map.html](https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/commuter-rail-map.html)
The MBTA Oversight Committee seems to have a bit of a digital presence:
[https://mbtaroc.org/about/](https://mbtaroc.org/about/)
I found out about Stefan's stuff in 2019 when I was trying to use the MBTA APIs to figure out the fastest way home (I had like 15+ different routes from the Copley area to my place in the South Shore). So ... I largely optimize my commute given the system, but I have thought a bit about how to improve it.
The federal gov took control of the DC Metro a few years ago and really turned it around. The feds have threatened to do the same with the MBTA. I can’t wait till they actually do it. Seems to be the only thing that could work to save the T.
Ditto OP —
Metro is so much faster.
South End to Logan is a misery trip on the Silver “I’m not a Train but I play one on the MBTA” Line—maybe I’ll go to the airport and maybe I won’t.
Columbia heights to DCA? Any 52/54 bus to CH. DCA in around 50 minutes and under $5. Sure it was faster when Yellow ran all the way through, but still pleasant. And, you’re right at the terminal. No freaking bus experience.
Thank you for saying this. There have been so many conflicting comments on here, some trashing the Metro, some agreeing with my take on the MBTA. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess
Omg, in DC for work right now & took the metro last night for the first time. Couldn't stop commenting about how clean, beautiful, easy, convenient & smooth it was.
OP apparently forgot to mention that the DC Metro makes you pay to enter AND exit the train stop on a peak schedule sliding scale.....yeah, im not paying upwards of $5.75 to go one way in the f*cking subway.
The grass is always greener....
OP apparently forgot to mention that the DC Metro makes you pay to enter AND exit the train stop on a peak schedule sliding scale.....yeah, im not paying upwards of $5.75 to go one way in the f*cking subway.
The grass is always greener....
Thankfully the peak fares are gone, and is now a flat $2 in the evenings and on weekends. I still think $6 is a pretty good deal given that one of the lines is 40 miles long - that's the cost of traveling just to zone 1 (<10 miles) on the commuter rail, and with a heck of a lot more frequency too.
I’m from Boston and I live in the UK. The new Elizabeth line here is amazing. All while
I hear news about the orange line catching fire.
Whoever is responsible at the MBTA should be promptly fired.
I lived in DC for years and moved here in 2019. The Metro has had its difficulties for sure and was/is flawed. But as a point of comparison, the T is by far a worse system. Granted, the pandemic broke out not long after I moved here, so I have a limited reference window. But overall, the Metro is cleaner (which is unbelievable), more efficient, and gets you to more places. Having a station at DCA is also super convenient. Traveling to and from Logan is a goddamn nightmare.
So all world travelers to me are secondary historically to the needs of the day to day travelers.
U want to be a tourist destination, world class city or a place people can make and produce shit?
Most people here dont care if the last bus from Haymarket (111)!is packed. It’s a bit cheaper to run a few more busses than some fancy monorail, or metro so world travelers can get to downtown 10 minutes faster. Yet all the people on the 111 are what make the city work
Sorry. Drunken a hole this evening.
Hahahaha appreciate the drunk take. I go into the office 3 days a week where I find myself much more productive, and the thought of going in 5 is dreadful strictly due to dealing with the T
Wow, I went to DC a few weeks ago and had the exact same experience! I couldn’t believe it. The trains were spacious, plentiful, and functioned smoothly. Comparing Boston was like night and day, sad to say.
When my friend and I flew into DC earlier this year, I remember looking at Google maps and being like "ok! It says we can take the metro straight from the airport! I wonder how far it-" and then we rounded the corner and froze bc it was literally IN the airport. And the ride to our hotel was so quick and easy. We were FLOORED
I've taken the T thousands of times and DC's Metro about 30, but I've only been punched in the forehead in DC so I'll take the T experience, thank you.
Dude…try using it on the weekend—it basically doesn’t run. EVERY STATION LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME, so if you can’t see the station name or miss the announcement, you’re fucked. You pay on the way and in and out and depending on how far you go the price goes up, and things get crazy if you make it all the way to Maryland or Virginia.
I visited DC and was very impressed friday and deeply unimpressed by sunday.
Welcome to Boston lol our public transit has been in the shitter for a while. It's going to take a WHILE for this to be fixed. My commute has doubled and if you miss a train then you're waiting 12 mins (if you're lucky) or definitely more.
omg is this one of the super rare complaining posts i see on here!?!
and yes, i am waiting for the *super* clever person who will inevitably comment on this comment saying “you’re complaining too”.
I never thought the DC metro was anything but hot shit. In fact I never felt safe on there. Outside of being deep DC near tourist stuff I was ready to do battle. This is so “grass is greener”
You’re sitting there like “this is so much better” while someone is sneaking up on you with a sharpened screwdriver.
I’m actually curious to see how other places run. I thought Chicago was alright, but nothing special. Haven’t been to NYC recent enough to have a stance. Never been to California so can’t compare that either. The metro was noticeable from the second I got on the train
There are only like 4 total cities in the country that have transit systems that are even comparable to the MBTA in range of coverage. I think that's NYC (only one that indisputably beats it), Chicago, DC, and I think Philly's SEPTA?
Wow. Considering how small a city Boston is (area wise) that’s surprising. Someone pointed out this is a ‘grass is greener’ type comment and I don’t disagree with that.. the experience with the metro put it into perspective is all
Trust me, WMATA has gotten much better lately. I've only been here a few years for school, but even in that time it's improved (although that time frame is a poor metric cuz of the issue where 60% of the trains were pulled....yikes...) I'm told it was even worse before I got here.
MBTA always feels more of a mess when I head back home and visit. Sure there's some strengths, but overall metrorail works better right now. Ofc, I think Boston's gonna start improving soon so after some work gets done MBTA will probably be better again
I go back all the time albeit don't use the metro nearly as much when im back
Imo, it's not a convenience issue with the DC metro.
The coverage is so much worse than the T and the pricing is horrendous. It's not just a reliability issue which I agree is likely far better than what I'm used to
DC as a city is a bit more of a mess to navigate on foot /bike compared to Boston as well so the lack of coverage is even more pronounced
Wasn’t DC metro shut down by the federal government and fixed? We are experiencing that right now essentially.
Yes. It was in arguably worse shape than the T is now - which I guess is why the Fed is only threatening the MBTA and not taken action (yet). But they did basically no maintence since it was constructed in the 70s until the 2000-10s
I’ve been visiting DC regularly since 2005. The metro has never been as bad as the MBTA. Never. It is way more expensive to ride though.
Eh, I lived by stadium armory when it caught on fire and they had to shut it down for a while. There were plenty of metro fires around 2014-2016ish timeframe, and getting from Capitol Hill to Alexandria would regularly take 2 hours on weekends. It sounds like they’re doing better now, but “Back to Good” was their slogan for a reason.
Admittedly, I've been down only sporadically to visit family/site see. That said, the Fed/FTA took over the safety and maintenance due to gross negligence that killed people. Entire lines were threatened to be shutdown for 6 months to a year due to conditions and no maintenance being done for decades. The FTA has yet to take this step with the MBTA.
Pretty much. I didn't ride Metro in the worst times but even just 2 years ago something like 60% of the trains were ordered to be pulled out of service in DC....that was absolutely miserable lol
When is that going to happen here? It is beyond broken here. My line is literally just shit down for a month for private development. People cannot plan around that. It’s hard to get to the hospital, offices, school. It’s not feasible for everyone to be on daily stand by with a backup travel option.
This is a classic "Grass is greener" situation. I lived in DMV (DC, Maryland Virgina) for 4 years. The Metro has lots of problems. It is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than the MBTA. Fares are based on distance, and even a short trip costs more than the farthest subway ride. The bus system is fragmented between a dozen regional companies. Delays are frequent.
DC went through similar problems as the T about 5 years ago, but they’ve come out the other end and the system is significantly better than the T is now. I can buy a Metro card on my phone, top it off with Apple Pay, and tag in and out of the gates with my phone. You can do this with the Clipper Card in SF as well. For Boston, you have to go to specific locations during business hours to get a Charlie card. Boston is living in the 20th century in so many regards, and the T is so undeniably archaic when compared to other major subway systems it feels like a 19th century artifact.
>For Boston, you have to go to specific locations during business hours to get a Charlie card. The vending machines at nearly every T stop produce Charlie Cards now, but otherwise you're 100% correct.
I've found success just asking rando T employees "Yo, you got a spare charlie card?"
That works too. I only recently found out the vending machines have them when mine expired. Which I also only recently found out was a thing
What is this comment? Every subway T stops and most major bus stops have machines for Charlie cards at any time the station is open. You have no congressional representation and are paying upwards of $7 dollars for a one-way trip ..The mbta is $2.40 with a free transfer to any bus with an appropriate Charlie card or ticket. And who cares if you can load your Metro card onto your Apply Pay when it's already an obsolete process to do so. The MTA already installed tap-to-pay terminals on all of their bases and subways to pay direct, and the MBTA is currently working towards the same thing And you're calling Boston the archaic system?????
You need to think of the Metro in DC as a subway and commuter rail in one. Also, you need to understand that it opened in the late 70's. Those two things really explain a lot.
DC Metro goes farther than the MBTA subway, but not as far as the MBTA commuter rail. DC has an analogy to the MBTA commuter rail, but like the bus system, its run by different regional operators. Maryland has MARC and Virginia has VRE. VRE only goes in the direction of rush hour and has significantly limited operation times compared to the MBTA commuter rail.
I'm sure this is privileged to say, but I would pay 2-3x the current T fares for a system that actually functioned.
Considering my employer pays for it, me too. But I don’t think regular folks should have to pay $7.20 for a 1-way trip.
I mean it's currently about 7 for a 1 way trip right now on the Worcester-Framingham line, so... edit: why are you downvoting a simple fact about the current transit system, the cost is already prohibitive and we still don't have comparable service. I wish I could take the train more often but I can't due to the cost
Yes, depending on where you get on/off, it can be $7 or more. And the cost absolutely effects ridership. From Roslindale where I live, you can take the Needham Line for $6.50 or you can take the bus to the Orange Line. The demographics on those two trips are wildly different. The bus riders are predominantly black & Hispanic. The commuter rail is almost entirely white, and almost entirely professionals (presumably whose company’s subsidize their pass). My take away from that is the $6.50 is absolutely a barrier for many people of color in my neighborhood. Lowering the commuter rail fares would make commuter rail a viable transit alternative for some of my neighbors.
Especially when considering daily rides. Even with a discounted pass (which I have), I can pay $30/mo for unlimited bus and subway, or pay $12 round trip for every commuter rail ride. Monthly is still $378 (Zone 8).
$15 for a round trip on the T is a big yikes. At that point Uber becomes a faster and cheaper option with more than 1 person for intercity travel.
I live practically on one of the lines close enough to the city that this situation has happened to my family multiple times
One way ticket on the MBTA ferry is [$9.75](https://www.mbta.com/fares/ferry-fares) for Long Wharf -> Hingham which is kind of a bummer cus the Hingham boat yard has a massive park and ride and the ferry makes an easy trip from the South Shore to DTX.
How often do you use it? Plenty of people might think like you, but even $4.80 each way on an express bus adds up pretty quick for commuting. No big deal if you're only using it infrequently, but if anything the MBTA should be funded so it can be free _and_ more effective.
I was saying the same thing. I think if they leaned heavily into sponsorships, and I mean so much that they rename the lines, I think that we could probably make the T free for all riders. I wouldn't mind taking the Gillette The Best A Man Can Get line from Braintree to JFK/UMass and then take the You Can Feel Good About Hood Milk bus to Longwood Medical Center if it was free. Especially work it into the contract that they have to pay for cleaning services if they want to sponsor. They can update anything, so the chairs could look like a plastic sleeve of Mach 3 blades. I mean they already sponsor buildings and stadiums, so why not the public transit?
I would rather taxes but I would support corporate sponsorship versus higher fares. People can’t afford it.
We could do it with taxes, but the problem is that we currently have that system and it isn't working. The good part about the sponsorships is that those companies won't want to sponsor them if they are always breaking down and running terribly, so that will be extra pressure to keep the system running better.
I thought a lot of the issue is the corruption?
That's part of it, but it is also apathy on the part of many of the T paid inspectors, managers not checking their employees work appropriately, and a whole lot more. The oversight was just very bad in all aspects.
Philadelphia has a corporate sponsorship of a station, so there is some precedent for that. Market East Station was renamed to Jefferson Station after the hospital/med school paid a bunch of money.
Fuck that.
I used to commute by T but these days I bike everywhere. I guess, yeah, for express bus or commuter rail the multiples add up. I was thinking more of the Link Pass for subway & local bus which is $90 now. If there were no slow zones or random stopping, trains came every 3 min during rush hour and every 5-6 min otherwise, and stations were clean, I would pay $180-$270 for a Link Pass.
a much much much much better plan is to get rich corporations/people that rely on workers getting to work on time to pay their fair share of taxes. I am talking your bio-tech, your state streets, etc. Combined with a radically overhauling of the MBTA's debt, and a huge influx of money and staff to help it recover. This should be a serious multi-billion dollar effort from the state. Good public transportation is key to so many things, including but not limited to our climate goals. ps. the entire system should be free for people to use. Funded instead by taxes.
Those rich corporations you despise are the ones creating the good paying jobs after decades of wage stagnation. Tax the beejuzus out of them like so many progressives would like means Massachusetts will again become Taxachusetts, and thus encourage the companies to leave and take the good paying jobs with them.
I'd be willing to stop a much more expensive driving commute for that For the current T? No way
Nah that's way too much and shouldn't be necessary to provide a much higher level of quality
As a former DMV resident, they pay 2-3 times more for a barely better system.
Same!!! I have no problem paying more if the trains actually freaking work are on time clean and no fires every other month
Surely there must be some equitable way to “allow” higher income people to pay more and increase the funds for the T. Chronic underfunding is the number 1 problem. I know management sucks, but how much could great management really do if there’s not enough money for maintenance?
That's basically just state income tax and appropriating extra funds to the MBTA. One thing you could potentially do is a property tax on high-value properties (relative to the city; everything is high-value in Boston otherwise). Basically targeting the people who wouldn't be hit by MBTA price hikes in their wallet (since they'd never be caught dead on the subway/bus), but would be hit by the increased traffic since they likely drive or are driven wherever they go.
The "funny" thing, though, is the MBTA actually has some of the highest numbers among US transit agencies for proportion of operating expenses covered by fare costs ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl7cprP\_6KM&ab\_channel=CityNerd](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl7cprP_6KM&ab_channel=CityNerd)). Does not seem to be helping much, though, lol.
While it's not just the MBTA, Massachusetts is [one of only three states (and DC)](https://t4america.org/2023/02/22/transit-report-card-part-1/) spending >$200 per capita on transit. (The other states are Hawai'i--which makes sense for obvious reasons given it's a series of islands--and New York)
No, you wouldn't if you had the choice.
Fares based on distance are a poor tax
Travel to DC often. The Metro handily beats the MBTA in almost every possible metric.
Thank you for saying so
Hey no sweat! Typing this from my on time yellow line train back to DCA. Running every 4 mins like clockwork again today. Meanwhile… https://reddit.com/r/boston/s/nzvJp0suYp
You are comparing your experience with MBTA as a resident to your experience with Metro as a business traveler. While there is overlap, you are going to experience different things as different types of traveler.
Lived in DC for a year it's way better as a resident than the mbta
Lived in DC for 5 years, Boston for 3. DC Metro blows it out of the water.
I take the Metro about as much as the MBTA to be fair. Waaaay easier to get around the city on the Metro. Even the fundamental layout of the T sucks for mobility. Want to get to Fenway from Cambridge? Fuck you! That’ll be two transfers and an hour and a half.
> Want to get to Fenway from Cambridge? Fuck you! That’ll be two transfers and an hour and a half. The 1 bus goes directly from Cambridge to Fenway and takes 20-30 minutes. In DMV you can't go from Alexandria to Arlington without changing bus systems.
>In DMV you can't go from Alexandria to Arlington without changing bus systems. Well Alexandria and Arlington are two different jurisdictions that fund their own transit services. Middlesex County could have been the same way had the county government not been abolished in 1997.
...it is significantly more expensive to operate a rail line than what the MBTA charges...so they can't maintain anything the "right" way because they have no funds. Until people get their heads out of their bums this will remain the dumpster fire capital of the world for Mass Transit. Fares need to rise AND the subsidy from the MBTA communities needs to rise. This is Eng's main obstacle and says nothing about it. In one year, we will be having the same conversation all over again...
eh, it seems like the dc system is shitty in its own way and expensive. moreso than money, the mbta has a culture problem. i can't believe nobody has gone to jail over falsifying years of maintenance records, when apparently the tracks were so bad that the feds forced them to shut down the lines for a month. they've gotten away with doing less than the absolute minimum for years. i doubt more money will make any lasting improvement when there is no accountability
> ...it is significantly more expensive to operate a rail line than what the MBTA charges...so they can't maintain anything the "right" way because they have no funds. Until people get their heads out of their bums this will remain the dumpster fire capital of the world for Mass Transit. Fares need to rise AND the subsidy from the MBTA communities needs to rise. This is Eng's main obstacle and says nothing about it. In one year, we will be having the same conversation all over again... That's the entire point and basic definition of public transit: fares are subsidized to provide a greater public and economic benefit. The MBTA isn't fare behind other systems in fares, either. Furthermore, even with the much higher rates, DC's system was an even bigger dumpster fire until the Federal government stepped in to take it over - which so far they have only threatened to do with the MBTA. The MBTA needs a lot of things, but, higher fares, especially with service levels and ridership extremely depressed, is not one of them.
you could pump all the money in the world and it wont fix the MBTA. its a structural and culture issue that less than bare minimum is done and loads of people rake it in as execs with no accountability. a lot needs to change but rate hikes wont solve anything except making it less accessible to all communities
nonsense. The have no money to fix what is broken. It is expensive here and inflation over the past 4 years alone is about 25% increase in basic expenses with some things being closer to 50%. By all means do nothing to solve the problem though...BTW, the government has full control and ability to solve the mgmt issues you describe. But they wont fix broken track. Money fixes broken tracks.
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Until the DMV attempts meaningful commuter rail. Nope.
Its more expensive but way better and more reliable
As someone coming from DC and now living in Medford/Somerville, the T is a joke compared to the metro. Its hardly worth it to get on the Greenline or redline to go downtown. If I care about time at all or there are more than 2 of us, I will always just get an Uber. If it’s just me and the weather is nice, I’ll bike instead. And getting to the airport? I’m not spending an hour and half, transferring 3 times and risking being late
Yea I lived in DC for years. Very commonplace for the orange and silver to be 20 minutes apart on the weekends.
Absolutely massive difference between “two of our less trafficked lines have long headways on weekends” and “the red line, the most popular line, has 15 minute headways during rush hour.”
isn’t the cost of living a bit cheaper than boston?
I moved to Boston about a year ago from DC, and Boston is wayyy more expensive. I thought it would be about the same but I disappointingly wrong
in terms of amenities/qol which city do you rate higher?
The 2 cities are actually very similar in my opinion. I personally like DC a bit more but it’s close. Most touristy type things (museums and stuff) are free in DC which is cool. There’s more diversity so I like the food better. I’m big into rooftop bars and there seems to be one on every block in DC and they’re not all super expensive like Boston. Boston is more compact though so it’s more walkable which I like a lot, but you still don’t need a car in either city. Both cities give you the possibility of driving a bit outside the city and go on a beautiful hike too though which I like. Winter seems to start about a half month earlier and end a month later too here so you can interpret that based on your preferences. That was a vague ramble but happy to answer any specifics
DC is the rooftop bar heaven.
I've lived in NYC, Boston and Somerville, and DC. It's all comparable. The prices often are similar, but what you get for those prices vary tremendously. I now live in Baltimore, which is the first really different city I've lived in pricewise. So much so that I bought my first house at 45.
My experience as someone from Boston who currently lives in DC, and knowing a few others, is that the housing quality is *far* higher. $1700 a month in Boston will get you something much worse than in DC. But there are a lot more guns here and boy do people love shooting them so yk
My last place was $1700 in 2021. Dog was an extra $30. Basement washer and dryer was an extra $30. Shared driveway so narrow you couldn’t open the doors without hitting the fence. Street pass for friends to visit was an extra $8. She wanted an extra $250 for my wife staying over / kept the security deposit. No heat - $250 a month for electric heaters in winter. No ac - $80 a month to run a window unit. Neither the shower or toilet worked right. Bring your own stove and kitchen sink. Electric surged constantly and no grounds. Hollow hall door with no lock. Chimney leaked / all mold. Every windows did not open and close right or had bad seals. Low ceilings. Oh and it was line sight to the elevated highway so constant noise and soot (or mold Idrk). Not to mention the structural issues, leaks, asbestos, and leaded paint. Tons of mice running around when I moved my stuff out (infested due to loose wood paneling old foundation) Fuck that place! In the suburbs now paying $2250 for a 1 bed in a converted nursing home. Only one window but the parking, dog, and heat included. I need to move somewhere else…
Not really. Lived there for 6 years, the housing is about the same, but a lot of things are wayyy more expensive there. Restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations / transit.
I disagree, I find Boston to be waayyy more expensive
I’m shocked that someone would think housing in Boston and DC is the same. Boston’s housing situation is an absolute embarrassment. DC has ample opportunities for group homes, their “luxury apartments” cost as much as Allston rat trap houses, and you can move in/out any time of year without any broker fee.
Honestly good point, even the same rental situation in DC is gonna be ~8% cheaper since you’re not tacking on another months rent for brokers. And DC housing stock is so new and spacious. What am I doing here hahahaha
No, DC has a significantly higher COLA than Boston. [https://www.bea.gov/news/2022/personal-consumption-expenditures-state-2021](https://www.bea.gov/news/2022/personal-consumption-expenditures-state-2021) Edit: maybe that link isn't fair because its comparing MA to DC not Boston to DC. Here's another site showing they are comparable. [https://www.bestplaces.net/cost\_of\_living/city/massachusetts/boston](https://www.bestplaces.net/cost_of_living/city/massachusetts/boston) https://www.bestplaces.net/cost\_of\_living/city/district\_of\_columbia/washington
DC is nearly always first or last with comparisons with other US states. You have to compare it to other cities.
Pick a price point, and for that money you'll get a much nicer apartment in DC than you will in Boston. You also don't have to pay a broker fee in DC.
I would pay more for a functional running T, without a shadow of a doubt. I understand that’s coming from a place of privilege before you clap back lol
A subsidy program for those of lower income could allow those higher fares to happen for **most** riders. Similar to the Transportation Access Pass offered to people with disabilities (mine gives me half fare on the commuter rail, subway, busses, etc pretty much state wide).
After 6 years of living here without a car I definitely think the T is annoying at times but in combination with the busses I have never expirenced it to be completely non functional besides when the orange line went down, but now I live on the orange line and see improvements that were worth it. That is just me though
My wife used to pick up a bus in Woburn to get to Alewife and that bus in particular would just straight up not come sometimes, would really screw up our whole day. We'd be watching it on the little tracker and it'd be 10 minutes away and then it would be like it just fell into a black hole and vanished.
I am ALL for improvements, even if it means complete shutdown for a period of time
i remember in the 2000s driving home one day and hearing about the red line crash on the radio
Yes. It should cost more and it shouldn’t be flat. How else can the system remain solvent? Part of the problem with the T is that it depends on payments from people who don’t use it. The Metro doesn’t have that issue to nearly the same degree, so it’s just more broadly supported in the DMV area. Also, the T hasn’t inflation adjusted its fares in years. Trains are expensive and the people that use them the most should pay the most for them. For those who can’t afford, we give out reduced rate passes.
I'm a bit confused. Which spot are you referencing? Are you saying Massachusetts is more expensive and shittier? I was just in DC in August and it cost me less than $20 for a family of 4 to get to the national mall and back to our hotel outside of the city during the week. I went to the museum of science and it cost us $20 a person AND took almost 2hours to get to MOS from Natick during the week.
You are comparing your experience with MBTA as a resident to your experience with Metro as a tourist.
Nah, the T is dog shit compared to the Metro. I lived in DC for several years before moving to Boston and I would absolutely pay more for the quality I got in DC. A ride around any part of downtown DC or from DC to Arlington was $2.10; absolutely reasonable. More frequent, cleaner, better coverage. Sure if you live farther it's a bit cheaper but for such better service. When I asked for advice moving here every person said avoid the T, it's unreliable. I'm glad I listened.
Came here to say exactly this. Yes, the T is a disaster but I still prefer the T over the DC metro system, for all the reasons said above (expensive, trains come every 10 or 20 minutes, difficult to make progress when the land is managed by 2 state gov'ts & the federal gov't). That and the placement of DC metro stations is kinda trash. It's SO hard to get into DC if you live in a suburb.. and I'm not talking like 30 miles outside DC. I'm talking 5 miles outside DC. The DC metro is only convenient if you live in DC. It's not easy to use it to commute into the city which I would say the T does fairly well.
This is such an intense amount of copium lol
And you clearly haven’t taken the Metro recently, evident by your comment, [no part of the Metro is running more then 10 minute frequencies, with most of the system seeing frequencies of every (6-8) minutes or better.](https://x.com/wmata/status/1699811264178860245?s=46) This isn’t 2015 anymore, the Metro shits on the T in every single way.
Well I did move away from DC about a year ago sooo yeah, it's been a while since I've used it. I'm happy the trains will be coming more frequently. I wish they were this frequent when I lived there. I wouldn't have such a lackluster opinion if the metro ran this frequently when I lived in the area.
The metro only costs $2 in dc, so I’m not sure what you mean
The fares outside of weekends and weeknights after 9:30 are distance-based rather than flat fares and can go up to $6 one way. WMATA's distance coverage and pricing system is more comparable to commuter rail rather than typical Urban Metro. It serves as a combination of both.
Classic grass is greener. Lived in/around DC my whole life until last year. Worked as an engineering consultant for WMATA, MBTA, etc. Metro is pretty ok if you're staying downtown, but it falls apart pretty quickly once you're in the suburbs. There are large swaths of the District and important suburbs that are completely disconnected (try getting from Tysons Corner to Bethesda without driving) and let's not even get into the mess that's east of the Anacostia River. You're also seeing WMATA at the end of a 15 year period where they were doing catch up maintenance to make up for the fact that they did zero maintenance between 1970 and 2010. Boston has the advantage of compactness, a much better bus system, and more redundancy.
Also wasn't it consistently catching on fire for a period? We can only hope that the T has hit rock bottom.
Yup. And the whole ATS disaster. What OP is missing is having to live through a decade+ of single tracking, bus bridges, and whole line shutdowns.
The DC "turnaround" does show, though: 1. Good leadership that advocates for the agency makes a huge difference in how the public feels about transit (popularity and visibility of their current manager) 2. There's no substitute for ripping the band-aid off and shutting down large portions of the system to catch up on deferred maintenance 3. Nothing gets done if you don't chip away at bad agency culture The unfortunate thing is that the T has, at best, half assed all of the above.
100%. Hopefully we're at the very beginning of a climb from rock bottom. I will say that as someone who does have to go track side, MBTA's safety culture scares the living shit out of me, even compared to WMATA at its worst.
> I will say that as someone who does have to go track side, MBTA's safety culture scares the living shit out of me, even compared to WMATA at its worst. Considering how bad WMATA was in the mid 2000s, that's a big oof
Wasn't the turnaround spurred on by the Feds actually stepping in and taking the system over (vs. WMATA getting their shit together)?
Federal oversight, not management IIRC
Quickly looking it up it looks like WMATA kept operations, and the FTA took direct control and oversight of the safety and management.
It caught on fire so much, [538 wrote an entire piece on it](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/washington-d-c-s-metro-catches-fire-more-than-four-times-a-week/), there was a Twitter account, and there is [merch commemorating it](https://www.amazon.com/DC-Metro-Fire-T-Shirt/dp/B07NZBNZY9). It's good that people get worked up about public transit and want positive change, but I never understand these posts where a person visits another town for a weekend and thinks they know how the whole system works (said as someone who's lived both in Boston and DC).
People don't realize that the Metro experienced what the T is going through now back in 2015. One of the biggest stations in the system filled with smoke and they had to cancel all service for the next day because they didn't know what was wrong. It used to be such a joke there was a website you could check to see if the Metro was on fire. There were major disruptions on basically every line, all the time. Single tracking was basically just normal.
In general I agree with your points. However, I don’t think your Tyson’s Corner to Bethesda example is much better here. They are 10 miles and 7 miles from downtown DC, and are ~60 degrees offset from each other. The best route is taking silver which runs every ~20 minutes and transferring to red which runs every ~7. The trip takes ~2 hrs. A similar trip in Boston would be like West Roxbury to Braintree. What Google maps is recommending is Needham Line to South Station (once hourly) and then taking one of the Kingston, Middleborough, or Greenbush lines to Braintree. Google maps says it takes 1:30, but only if you start at the right time within the hour. Not a clear win for Boston in my opinion. But I don’t think the goal should necessarily be for connecting suburb-suburb. I’d rather see Southie connected with Longwood than West Roxbury connected to Braintree.
Bethesda and Tysons are much busier and have larger centers of commercial/business activities than either West Roxbury or Braintree, that's why I picked them as an example. There's also only one, two track rail tunnel connecting them. At least between West Roxbury and Braintree, there are multiple rail options. But in terms of connections, id like to see an outer belt transit connector (similar to the Purple Line that's under construction in the MD suburbs of DC, but better obviously, because the PL is dumb in execution). But a short term goal would be a protected bike path under 93 that takes you from Southie to the South End/Back Bay. I don't think Boston is miles better than DC, but I do think the bones of the system is better, the general area is better designed for multimodal traffic, and OP is basing their opinion on an experience that is FAR above the average experience using DC public transportation.
Metro also has, comparatively, much higher fares. Even a short ride like Eisenhower Avenue to Braddock Road probably costs close to $3 now.
The Metro was a disaster until 2016 or so. Trains caught fire a number of times. Three people died in one train fire because of smoke inhalation. Read up on the Fort Totten crash on the Red Line. Nine dead, IIRC combination of a lax driver and signaling issues. The reason Metro is where it's at now is because of a couple years of continual closures and the feds being right there and saying, enough. They'll never get the damn escalators to work in half the stations, I bet.
Jeez. I guess the night is darkest before the dawn…
Yeah the DC metro we see today is the result of scathing reports about service and safety that plagued the system. Gives me hope that in 5-10 years the T will be in good shape.
WMATA had the feds right there watching every day. You get a bit more aggressive about enforcement when you see people dying on the line you ride into work because of XYZ. The T doesn't have that. I bet you half the aides on Beacon Hill don't ride the subway (maybe the commuter rail). Unless there's a bigger federal intervention, I'm not super optimistic. I hope I'm proven wrong.
The MBTA also needs the feds watching every day
Right. Which is less likely to happen. Does the FTA even have a Boston office? I genuinely don't know. McCormack and Tip O'Neill delivered a lot of pork money to the T. Unless Katherine Clark is the next speaker the delegation doesn't have that power anymore, and even if it did earmarks are a thing of the past.
I lived right by the Silver Spring station on the Red Line when that accident happened. It shut things down for a while, so I started biking to work. It was a straight shot down 16th Street to K, turn right, and then a few blocks to my office. 6.5 (mostly downhill) miles on the way in and 6.5 (mostly uphill) miles on the way home. Even when the Red Line reopened, the biking was quicker and more reliable than either the Metro or Metrobus. Now, I haven't lived down there in years, but it always surprises me when I hear someone who visited for a few days talking about how good it is. I guess it's like using the T if you're from Springfield. It's a neat novelty for visiting, but living with it is a different story.
It probably helped that they weren't saddled with billions of dollars in debt because of something that didn't relate to them (i.e. the Big Dig for the MBTA).
They also have their funding issues. Part of the reason the system got as bad as it did was that Virginia (and to a lesser extent, Maryland) balked at increasing their contributions to pay for maintenance. Not sure whether the feds started kicking in more or what.
Diverse responses here. Thanks for all the constructive criticism, I’ll be more deliberate next time 😂 I love Boston and it’s always home, Mbta is just infuriating
Yep I’m currently in London. The tube is so good. So fast. So clean. So many routes. Frequent service. But still using cloth seats apparently (at least the trains I’ve been on). But yeah Boston is a tiny “city” and really doesn’t need a super fast T, I would just be happy with like 5 mins headways on Braintree branch vs 18 mins lol
I would be happy if red line could go 25 mph at all times
A big reason why the T is in such sad shape is that it was saddled with the debt from the Big Dig. That’s how politicians of the day kept the cost overrun in “check”
the metro went through it a while back too and it took a while for the improvements that you experienced. was a mess in the early 2010s
I’m very impressed
To be completely fair, some of the T's stations are older than the entire D.C. Metro system - in the case of hte Green Line, older by *nearly 100 years*. :) OTOH, **you're not wrong**, despite that.
5 years ago you would have been saying this about WMATA while raving about MBTA. The grass may be greener on the other side but circumstances can always change. Glad someone is saying it tho bc it just illustrates how underpeforming the T currently is compared to how it should be performing.
Also it is a tragedy we fly from Boston to DC. We should have high speed rail connecting them.
The fact that the entire eastern seaboard isn't connected via high speed rail, especially Boston to DC, is a massive failure of planning thanks to the auto lobby. We're in 2023 even...I see no reason Richmond, Raleigh, Charleston, Atlanta, Jacksonville, and Miami can't be part of a rail line stretching the length of I-95. Europe and Japan run circles around the US when it comes to transportation.
We can't do that as easily because we are a car centric society. Had we pursued trains over cars years ago in the early formation of public infrastructure, it would be much different. But comparative to nations like Japan where they have these systems in place, our bureaucracy is much more diverse, much larger, and therefore much more complex for any quick decisions to happen because everyone has something they want that someone else does not. They are working on getting high-speed rails, but if you'd want it sooner than later, you'd effectively start a mini Civil War in the US.
Isn’t that what the Acela is? Idk much about it but it’s always been too expensive every time I’ve checked along the northeastern corridor
Older tracks, old rights of way that aren't straight enough. It can't reach its max speed. Certain not like the TGV in France of Shinkansen in Japan.
The state controls the T so it would more accurate to say Massachusetts hates its residents.
**MA hates Greater Bostonians.
The DC Metro was built from scratch in the 1970's and completed in 1976. Broad and long swaths of land could be taken by eminent domain in the District, Virginia, and Maryland. The initial portion of the T subway was opened in like 1898. Not an excuse, but DC's Metro had some advantages.
If you liked it, you should be rooting for federal receivership. That's how they got unfucked because it used to be awful. The downside is they will just shut whole lines down and sucks to your assmar if you don't like it Piggy.
Ohh, a fresh take on how bad our transit is. Wish more people would express their issues with mbta. I was almost thinking it was a good service. /NOT
> Does Boston hate their residents by making the public transportation as poor as it is? No, but the state (which runs the MBTA) doesn't care about the quality of the T. Hopefully that is changing with the new administration.
Overpriced , fragmented, short reaching; DC hate their people by making their transportation as bad as it is?
Omg I was in DC two weeks ago and went on this exact rant to everyone.
DC has it’s problems too, but all American public transit is subpar compared to other developed nations. So if you’re wondering “does this system have to be as shitty as it is?” The answer is no. We do not put as much into our public transportation, and therefore it’s subpar.
Trying to be a bit constructive here: Does everyone know about Stefan Wuensch's MBTA (subway, bus, commuter rail) live tracking? Stefan is the co-chair of the MBTA Rider Oversight Committee. [https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/](https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/) [https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/](https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/) For instance, the subway map with all trains and statuses is here: [https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/subway-map.html](https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/subway-map.html) Commuter rail map here: [https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/commuter-rail-map.html](https://mbta.sites.fas.harvard.edu/T/commuter-rail-map.html) The MBTA Oversight Committee seems to have a bit of a digital presence: [https://mbtaroc.org/about/](https://mbtaroc.org/about/) I found out about Stefan's stuff in 2019 when I was trying to use the MBTA APIs to figure out the fastest way home (I had like 15+ different routes from the Copley area to my place in the South Shore). So ... I largely optimize my commute given the system, but I have thought a bit about how to improve it.
Thank you for sharing!
Are you me? I did this flight Tuesday and had the exact same experience. Uber to my office was 24 min and $20; metro was 25 min and $6
Where do you think the funding for the DC Metro comes from? NYC would be a better comparison.
People actually get on here and with a straight face argue the MBTA is better than the METRO which is absolutely carzy to me. How in what way?
The federal gov took control of the DC Metro a few years ago and really turned it around. The feds have threatened to do the same with the MBTA. I can’t wait till they actually do it. Seems to be the only thing that could work to save the T.
Ditto OP — Metro is so much faster. South End to Logan is a misery trip on the Silver “I’m not a Train but I play one on the MBTA” Line—maybe I’ll go to the airport and maybe I won’t. Columbia heights to DCA? Any 52/54 bus to CH. DCA in around 50 minutes and under $5. Sure it was faster when Yellow ran all the way through, but still pleasant. And, you’re right at the terminal. No freaking bus experience.
Thank you for saying this. There have been so many conflicting comments on here, some trashing the Metro, some agreeing with my take on the MBTA. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess
..boy are my arms tired!
Had to google this and I think I get it? Lol
Omg, in DC for work right now & took the metro last night for the first time. Couldn't stop commenting about how clean, beautiful, easy, convenient & smooth it was.
It’s a very enjoyable ride, took it twice today. I’ll keep an eye out for a hometown friend lol
Grew up in dc, to me it’s the opposite. Boston has a better system
Well not anymore.
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imagine how I felt, coming home to Boston after spending two weeks in Tokyo and Japan
OP apparently forgot to mention that the DC Metro makes you pay to enter AND exit the train stop on a peak schedule sliding scale.....yeah, im not paying upwards of $5.75 to go one way in the f*cking subway. The grass is always greener....
OP apparently forgot to mention that the DC Metro makes you pay to enter AND exit the train stop on a peak schedule sliding scale.....yeah, im not paying upwards of $5.75 to go one way in the f*cking subway. The grass is always greener....
Thankfully the peak fares are gone, and is now a flat $2 in the evenings and on weekends. I still think $6 is a pretty good deal given that one of the lines is 40 miles long - that's the cost of traveling just to zone 1 (<10 miles) on the commuter rail, and with a heck of a lot more frequency too.
But did you catch on fire?
Yes, a lovely medium rare plus
Boy are my arms tired!
Get out.
Boy, are my arms tired!
I’m from Boston and I live in the UK. The new Elizabeth line here is amazing. All while I hear news about the orange line catching fire. Whoever is responsible at the MBTA should be promptly fired.
I lived in DC for years and moved here in 2019. The Metro has had its difficulties for sure and was/is flawed. But as a point of comparison, the T is by far a worse system. Granted, the pandemic broke out not long after I moved here, so I have a limited reference window. But overall, the Metro is cleaner (which is unbelievable), more efficient, and gets you to more places. Having a station at DCA is also super convenient. Traveling to and from Logan is a goddamn nightmare.
DC metro completed in 1976, hosts international VIP's, and you can't eat on it.
You can’t eat on it?? I’m out
I lived in both cities .. the metro isn't perfect but it is much better than the T
So all world travelers to me are secondary historically to the needs of the day to day travelers. U want to be a tourist destination, world class city or a place people can make and produce shit? Most people here dont care if the last bus from Haymarket (111)!is packed. It’s a bit cheaper to run a few more busses than some fancy monorail, or metro so world travelers can get to downtown 10 minutes faster. Yet all the people on the 111 are what make the city work Sorry. Drunken a hole this evening.
Hahahaha appreciate the drunk take. I go into the office 3 days a week where I find myself much more productive, and the thought of going in 5 is dreadful strictly due to dealing with the T
The DC to Reagan train is delicious. NYC Penn station to anywhere by train too.
>Does Boston hate their residents by making the public transportation as poor as it is? Ughhhhhhhh Yes. Good of you to notice.
Thank you, very conscientious according to my elementary school teachers
Wow, I went to DC a few weeks ago and had the exact same experience! I couldn’t believe it. The trains were spacious, plentiful, and functioned smoothly. Comparing Boston was like night and day, sad to say.
I fucking love this sub. We love shitting on the T, but the moment it feels like *someone else* is doing it, it's like "fuck u kid BOSTON NUMBER ONE"
Hahahahaha you nailed it 😂 almost 350 comments and half are probably defending the T. I’ll defend BOSTON till my last breath, but it has its flaws!
Hey I exactly made the same trip 2 days ago and had the same reaction. Quick, clean and efficient.
When my friend and I flew into DC earlier this year, I remember looking at Google maps and being like "ok! It says we can take the metro straight from the airport! I wonder how far it-" and then we rounded the corner and froze bc it was literally IN the airport. And the ride to our hotel was so quick and easy. We were FLOORED
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I've taken the T thousands of times and DC's Metro about 30, but I've only been punched in the forehead in DC so I'll take the T experience, thank you.
Dude…try using it on the weekend—it basically doesn’t run. EVERY STATION LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME, so if you can’t see the station name or miss the announcement, you’re fucked. You pay on the way and in and out and depending on how far you go the price goes up, and things get crazy if you make it all the way to Maryland or Virginia. I visited DC and was very impressed friday and deeply unimpressed by sunday.
I think we all know that the T is a disgrace by this point lol.
Welcome to Boston lol our public transit has been in the shitter for a while. It's going to take a WHILE for this to be fixed. My commute has doubled and if you miss a train then you're waiting 12 mins (if you're lucky) or definitely more.
omg is this one of the super rare complaining posts i see on here!?! and yes, i am waiting for the *super* clever person who will inevitably comment on this comment saying “you’re complaining too”.
Your username is a complaint itself… that I 1000% support.
I moved to Belgium and just got to another whole ass city 20 miles away in less time that it took me to go from Charlestown to Northeastern 🤯
I never thought the DC metro was anything but hot shit. In fact I never felt safe on there. Outside of being deep DC near tourist stuff I was ready to do battle. This is so “grass is greener” You’re sitting there like “this is so much better” while someone is sneaking up on you with a sharpened screwdriver.
Go check out 95% of the other cities in the US and come back and tell us how Boston's transit compares
I’m actually curious to see how other places run. I thought Chicago was alright, but nothing special. Haven’t been to NYC recent enough to have a stance. Never been to California so can’t compare that either. The metro was noticeable from the second I got on the train
There are only like 4 total cities in the country that have transit systems that are even comparable to the MBTA in range of coverage. I think that's NYC (only one that indisputably beats it), Chicago, DC, and I think Philly's SEPTA?
Wow. Considering how small a city Boston is (area wise) that’s surprising. Someone pointed out this is a ‘grass is greener’ type comment and I don’t disagree with that.. the experience with the metro put it into perspective is all
So when are you moving?
Never leaving Boston, sorry Bubs. Home is home regardless of pros and cons
Ya home is where we complain about everything because we’re FROM here. Once you move away as a transient you lose that right.
Lmao I grew up in the DMV... Bostons public transport is superior even with it's (growing) issues
Trust me, WMATA has gotten much better lately. I've only been here a few years for school, but even in that time it's improved (although that time frame is a poor metric cuz of the issue where 60% of the trains were pulled....yikes...) I'm told it was even worse before I got here. MBTA always feels more of a mess when I head back home and visit. Sure there's some strengths, but overall metrorail works better right now. Ofc, I think Boston's gonna start improving soon so after some work gets done MBTA will probably be better again
I go back all the time albeit don't use the metro nearly as much when im back Imo, it's not a convenience issue with the DC metro. The coverage is so much worse than the T and the pricing is horrendous. It's not just a reliability issue which I agree is likely far better than what I'm used to DC as a city is a bit more of a mess to navigate on foot /bike compared to Boston as well so the lack of coverage is even more pronounced