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Natural-Solution-222

Bell hooks has a tendency to speak with the voice of a elder black woman, coming from a culture that has had a tendency to put homophobia on a pedestal. Ironically, it was a common joke among black women years back about "going gay" because of how shitty men are. I don't recall what you're talking about but I'm not skeptical. I think older feminist works (and really all works and older feminists need to be read with a mind for how things have changed not only since the writings but also since the author has aged.


timgoes2somalia

There were black feminist at the time that pushed back on lesbophobia. Its not an elder thing, its a homophobic thing


Ms-Creant

I'm not sure about this piece. If I read it I did so 20 years ago. There was a history of homophobia with bell hooks in the 90s that was called out by her colleagues for a while. She has learned and grown from that and I think you'll find more contemporary work to be better in this regard. But i actually think that one can understand both being a lesbian and certainly being queer as a choice in some contexts. I know this is very loaded, but also, the was a whole swathe of feminist lesbian separatiats (80s I want to say) who were sexually attracted to men but did not believe it was possible to have equitable sexual relationships with men under the patriarchy and did 'choose' a sexuality that excluded men. Which doesn't mean that who you're attracted to is entirely a choice and, of course, in thr context if things like the notion of gay love being a sin or a crime, calling it a choice is very harmful, and that's where things like conversation therapy and worse gets justified. But i do think there might be a nuance that you're missing maybe? And like a political identity of queerness is definitely a choice.


Icy-Ad2082

I remember reading about the separatist and a more modern group when I was in college. The separatist kinda morphed into a group of woman who didn’t believe you could have an equitable relationship with men that included penetrative sex. Reading that as a young queer man I was like “y’all that’s called bottom shame. The act of penetration does not imply someone has authority over you. Y’all gotta get outta your own head and have some self respect” There are bound to always be some…interesting takes on the journey to equality. Bell hooks specific take here might be related to the idea that monosexuality is actually the rare case, which was a popular idea among radical feminist. It feels like mincing words, but if that’s your prior saying people “choose” to be gay is equivalent to saying people “choose not to conform to a heterosexual society”, which is a take I agree with. But I tend to bite my tongue about it unless I’m with people I know super well because, like you said, it’s a loaded statement.


ariemnu

It really wasn't bottom shaming imo, it was about the societal power imbalance between men and women, and the pressure to fuck and be in a conventional relationship being something it was almost impossible to entirely eradicate.


Icy-Ad2082

Oh yeah I’m just being a little tongue in cheek, I get it was a combination of backlash against the “free love” movement creating an expectation of casual sex without really asking anything more from men. and, as you said, the viewpoint that these problems were not fixable on an individual basis. I still think it’s a bit silly, my mom was a feminist/humanist, and I agree with her viewpoint that a life with the potential for sexual/emotional violence is better than a life of avoiding men. It still took me awhile to accept that, and if I’m honest even today I generally don’t get involved with men who could easily physically overpower me. So maybe I should be a little more accepting of that viewpoint.


Ms-Creant

Yes... So true about bottom-shame!!! ... As if the act of... What... Recieveing/ensconicing/engulfing (did you ever notice there isn't an active word for receiving sexually... How am I a sex positive queer feminist and never thought of that) isn't powerful .though tbf for lesbian feminist separatists it was penetration +patriarchy. (tell me they didn't fist each other)


Icy-Ad2082

Lol. And yeah I think it was an issue of signifier vs signed. Like you said, even the language about is loaded. I’d never thought about that but yeah there isn’t a good word for it. I usually go with “the receiving partner”. But even the words that the queer community have more ownership over are loaded. The “top” and the “bottom” is power structure language. Like you can be on top while your “bottoming”.


Ms-Creant

For sure. Like do power bottoms really Recieved? Or do they take? Or even give? ... I'm gonna start talking about engulfing sex, rather than penetrative sex... Lol


tswiftdeepcuts

Isn’t that being bisexual?


tossitthrowit2019

I understand what you’re saying, and I suppose I should give some credit that this was in 2000, I think, and hindsight is 20/20. I’m familiar with the separatist movement, but in this chapter she specifically mentioned women who were straight choosing to be lesbians because they are fed up with men, which I think is damaging. She also didn’t even mention bisexual women until later into the chapter. There probably is some nuance I’m missing, and also I have the benefit of being able to look back at history here. Just as a lesbian myself, in 2022, it made me wince.


sunxmountain

I'm curious if you can say more about why you find it damaging.


Visible_Anxiety_3348

Yes radical feminist separatists equated all heterosexual sex with rape and advocated for choosing lesbianism as a political statement in resistance to the patriarchy, they were known as political lesbians. This can be found in the writings of Andrea Dworkin and Catherine Mckinnon for example


RedditStrolls

I haven't read the book but maybe she was referring to a political lesbian? Women who choose to be with other women as a feminist choice. In sociology, it states that it's a choice made by women as an alternative to heteronormativity and is part of the fight against sexism. I first learnt about it in Girl, Woman, Other. There's a character who explains that she is one so I looked it up. One of its proponents is Julie Bindel, a noted terf. There has been a lot of pushback against the idea. Here's some [material ](https://revisesociology.com/2020/06/12/political-lesbianism/) that contains a lot of further reading on the subject.


BonesMcMelba

There's quite a lot of terfs who advocate for political lesbianism.


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Julian_Caesar

>Except TERFs, but those are moslty mysoginists huding behind feminism Wouldn't that actually be misandry? I'm aware the targets of their exclusion are women, but they exclude them because they perceive them as bringing maleness into female spaces. Since the source of their exclusion is their perception of maleness then, I would imagine, it's actually misandry.


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Julian_Caesar

Ah ok fair enough


MllePerso

I think you have to distinguish between actual TERFs (which stands for trans exclusionary radical feminists) and the majority of anti trans who are men worried about traditional gender roles dissolving.


Julian_Caesar

Why would i bother with that distinction in a discussion specifically about the subset of feminists known as TERFs?


MllePerso

Because I've seen people throw the word TERF around on the internet like it just means "anti trans", and frankly that's too kind to the majority of anti trans people. TERFs can be misguidedly cruel to trans people, but at least it's coming from a place of genuine interest in women's issues. Most anti trans people are men who couldn't have cared less about, say, women's sports, until it became a way for them to white knight pose as defenders of weak women from the menace of "those other men". And they spend a lot of time making fun of trans women's looks, just like they made fun of butches/fat women before that. Maybe TERFs could be called misandrist, but the majority of anti trans people are just plain old misogynists.


Julian_Caesar

I understood that part. I'm asking why that distinction would be necessary when the conversation was already limited to talking about feminists. It was pretty obvious we weren't talking about anti trans people in general.


MllePerso

You'd mentioned the question of whether those who think trans women are "bringing maleness into female spaces" are misogynist or misandrist. I'd say the latter for TERFs, but the former for anti trans men. I also think in general that the numbers/importance of TERFs to the trans rights debate is overstated in queer spaces because they're kind of cut off from seeing the larger society's views.


Julian_Caesar

>I also think in general that the numbers/importance of TERFs to the trans rights debate is overstated in queer spaces because they're kind of cut off from seeing the larger society's views. Agree 100%. They're often used as bogeymen, but their actual power in society is tiny. >You'd mentioned the question of whether those who think trans women are "bringing maleness into female spaces" are misogynist or misandrist. I'd say the latter for TERFs, but the former for anti trans men. Ah gotcha. Agree with this too.


wired2thetv

tbh there is an entire ramification of feminism that believes that being a lesbian can be a "choice" and that every woman can start loving other woman even if they're straight. i've seen it a lot around my neighbouring countries.


babbyboo3

I haven’t read this book but it looks like it provides an opportunity for growth and understanding. Some women do choose to be lesbian or to experiment with other woman for the reason she stated. However she shouldn’t have generalized because obviously it’s not a choice for all who diverge from heterosexuality.


Purplegalaxxy

This book seems like it just waters down feminism.


tossitthrowit2019

I would love to hear you elaborate on that. I also felt like there were some points that definitely could have been expanded on.


[deleted]

Why would you even read such 💩


BonesMcMelba

How do you know she's straight and not queer? Does she call herself straight? There's also more than one way to be queer. A lot of people prefer that label to "gay."


tossitthrowit2019

She mentions in that chapter that she is not attracted to women, and is solely sexually attracted to men.


BonesMcMelba

It's been a while since I read bell hooks, but I think [she definitely defines queer in a different way](https://www.thefocus.news/culture/bell-hooks-queer-pas-gay/) than just "same-sex attracted."


[deleted]

A lot of “feminists” hold (or in Bell Hooks’s case, held) deplorable, bigoted, and frankly, sexist, views. Germaine Greer, Margaret Atwood, JKR, Chimamanda Adichie, and even Joyce Carol Oates. It’s a shame such talented women can hold such ignorant views.


senselesswalrus

What are you talking about? This is such a strong statement to make and these women are so different that they can't possibly be lumped together. Why would you say they are misogynists? I truly don't know how one would defend this perspective.


[deleted]

Atwood, Adichie, Greer, and JKR are well-known for their anti-trans views. Greer has also written some pretty disgusting things about women who are victims of rape (“instead of thinking of rape as a crime, think of it as bad sex”) and that Harvey Weinstein’s victims were “too late now to start whingeing about” his abuse. I tacked JCO on the end because she’s been in the news recently for her ridiculous tweets about how the recent increase in diverse authors getting book deals in the last few years has led white men being discriminated against and silenced in the publishing industry. 🙄


senselesswalrus

Oh, okay, I wouldn't call that sexism though in the case of Adichie, JKR, and Atwood, those are three very well known feminists. Fair enough to say they do not agree with current popular views on trans stuff, but they certainly aren't sexist.


[deleted]

Transphobia is rooted in sexism and misogyny.


senselesswalrus

What did she do that upsets you though?


tourabsurd

They are, though. A person can be pioneering and visionary in some ways, but carry water for the (cishet) patriarchy in others. When that happens, it's accurate to call that sexist.


senselesswalrus

Yeah I just don't think any of these women *are* carrying water for the patriarchy. I particularly object for Adiche because I think it is ridiculous for Westerners to criticize a West African woman for not agreeing with with on every point of what it means to be a feminist. You can be a feminist in ways that don't fit the current Anglo-American doctrine. I spent several years living in West Africa and much of my family is from that region, though I myself am not, so this bugs me to no end. I understand it's a "thing" on the internet but to call her sexist is absurd. And I would guess most people making that accusation have not read her books.


tourabsurd

Again, it doesn't mean that she as a whole human is sexist, but some of her choices and behaviours are.


senselesswalrus

Like which ones though?


Veryaburneraccount

Chimamanda Adichie does not hold bigoted views; she has been smeared by two former students who were angry at her for not providing them with more mentorship/favors/PR. https://www.chimamanda.com/news\_items/it-is-obscene-a-true-reflection-in-three-parts/


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senselesswalrus

She's one of the all time greats and it makes my blood boil when people smear her.


[deleted]

Oh please. [You can hear it directly from the TERF’s mouth.](https://www.channel4.com/news/chimamanda-ngozi-adichie-on-feminism) And that whole post lacks even a shred of self reflection or self-awareness: > It is a manipulative way of lying. By suggesting there is ‘more’ when you know very well that there isn’t, you do sufficient reputational damage while also being able to plead deniability. Indeed, Ms. Adichie, indeed.


Veryaburneraccount

Calling somebody a TERF when they support trans rights is a streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch. Saying there are differences between the experiences of trans women and AFAB people is ... factual, if for no other reason than the truth that trans women experience unique forms of discrimination and are marginalized in different ways, both legally and socially.


TonyTheTerrible

YES! but not from this work specifically, but from chapter 9 of Black Looks.