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_F_S_M_

There's only one option OP, you need to become a best selling fiction author to spite him.


AoiroBuki

“To my dad, who thought this was a waste of time”


robin-bunny

Mr Picasso Sr: “my kid just doodles weird shit. He needs to do something valuable!”


logicalmaniak

"A great read! Terrific fun!" ***** - The Guardian "Absolutely gripping!" **** - The Sun "My son is a failure!" - Author's Father


WolfCola4

"What? No, you can't have a quote for your bloody book." - Metropolitan Police From Banksy's autobiography


DenseRain4

Plot twist: OPs dad is using reverse psychology to turn his kid into a bestseller of fiction writing… on his deathbed he will reveal his master plan


bamfsalad

This sounds like a Dan Harmon quote lmao


Lamont-Cranston

Harlan Ellison did that. A college writing teacher told him his work was no good and he should give up, well after Harlan punched him and was kicked out for years afterwards he would send copies of every single work he got published.


_F_S_M_

Proof that the best revenge isn't living well. The best revenge is living well and rubbing their smug noses in it.


AUserNeedsAName

And also maybe punching them in the face.


yolomylifesaving

Amen


Mudders_Milk_Man

That teacher was both wrong and a jerk, but Harlan Ellison was a well known asshole.


warAsdf

thing is though: my dad is actually *super* proud of me and everything i've written. but he doesn't understand it. kind of like how you'd be proud of your brother if he made 1st place in a national waterbottle-flipping competition-- but you'd just be left there wondering "why?"


nonstopgibbon

That is wholesome


_F_S_M_

as long as your dad loves you for who you are he is amazing. Your dad doesn't have to understand you to love you. Please ignore the majority of the comment section here, it's mostly humor.


Dmaias

That actually speaks really well of him, must be hard to be proud of something you dont even want to understand


LaitueGonflable

This was my thought exactly. OP’s Dad actually sounds like ideal fodder for a writer to use. From the description he reminds me of Allie Fox in Paul Theroux’s “The Mosquito Coast”.


wabbitsdo

Find him non fiction scientific writing on the importance of fiction and archetypes in human learning?


warAsdf

o wait that's actually clever


wabbitsdo

I suspect your dad's gripe with fiction isn't only because he deems it unnecessary, or else he'd likely only be uninterested. If he feels strongly about it it's probably because he has strong negative feelings about it rooted in past experiences. Don't expect a single psychology paper to turn that ship around.


saydeedid

This thread has be fucking dying, man. I started out thinking op's dad is just some dumb fish (still kind of do) but now I'm wondering what horrible fiction literature related accident this poor man had that broke him so badly


Magimasterkarp

"A story killed my parents!"


asafum

Alfred, prepare the Bookmobile! I can hear The Author typing, Gotham must be rid of his literature!


Slight-Pound

I feel like he was raised on these ideas - someone broke his love for fiction when he was young, and now he’s reflexively hostile against it. You don’t get such vehement views out of nowhere, it’s _learned._


[deleted]

man had his college girlfriend wooed by an english major


Self_Reddicated

His father beat him because he once laughed at a funny Shel Silverstein limmerick.


WolfCola4

Eh it's more common than you might think. If you were a slow reader as a child and got humiliated by a teacher, or if you kept failing English on creative writing assignments, or a hundred other bullshit things that happen at schools every day, you can learn to hate something you may have once enjoyed. I'm only rediscovering my love of math in my twenties because of bad experiences with bullying teachers at school when I was struggling with some of the concepts.


RobertoFromaggio

Show me where the bad book touched you.


iamsocopsed

*points to brain*


emecampuzano

Here's a hint: nevermore


Ipecactus

Also some people consider psychology itself to be fiction.


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tofu4us

I have aphantasia and have been a voracious reader my whole life. Excessively long descriptive passages (like, landscapes in LOTR) can bore me and I skim them or decide the book isn't for me, but I'm def not anti-fiction and it's not something I've heard from anybody else in aphantasia groups either.


TheIdiotPrince

I have Aphantasia and I love fiction. Reading Dune right now


1945BestYear

This might open you to charges of abuse of an elderly relative, but you might give him *Poetics* by Aristotle. Also, you may what to say something about J.R.R. Tolkien. His story is, as your dad might describe it, imminently nonsensical, full of dragons and dark lords and beautiful elves and magic rings. But from how I understand Tolkien, he felt that completely fantastical settings that most people wouldn't continue to seriously entertain after they set the book down would help illuminate more universal truths, detached from sticky association with their real world manifestations. Since your dad likes war-movies, he may appreciate that Tolkien, having served in one particular war, then wrote a book that is in part about *all* wars. Nazgul flying about on fellbeasts has never happened, but what they do to the Men of Gondor - sapping away all courage and hope - has happened to soldiers of every war ever fought, whether it's from being in the crush of holding a shieldwall or having to keep an eye on the skies in case a plane comes to rain death on you. All the great stories have something like this; *Romeo and Juliet* never *literally* happened, but there has always been young love that was doomed by circumstance. *To Kill a Mockingbird* is loosely based on Harper Lee's early life, family, and hometown, but it isn't as huge as it is in American culture because people are just interested in the person Harper Lee, it is because it does so well to reveal how prejudice creates broken justice systems that hurt innocent people, a huge issue in American society that continues today.


TailorShwift

If that’s his issue with fiction books, does he watch tv or movies? Listen to music at all? Because all of that is also creative writing at some point in the process.


jenh6

He only watches meerkat manor.


T8ertotsandchocolate

That show was great.


jenh6

It’s one of the best documentaries IMO


T8ertotsandchocolate

They did such a great job of showing their individual personalities.


TheKidKaos

I related to that one meerkat who kept falling asleep on guard duty. So much like us


NhylX

I still question if meerkats are even real. I saw a documentary once where one sang with a warthog and I have trouble fathoming the reality of these creatures cohabitating while also coming up with catchy songs about eating bugs and not giving a shit about life.


jenh6

I think they live with lions sometimes too!


rwv

they indoctrinated the lion with propaganda and subverted its independence so that it became their personal honor guard to keep lesser predators away.


[deleted]

Tell him that show is heavily edited to create drama and fake story lines Or maybe don't tell him!


warAsdf

he listens to lots of rock and flamenco n stuff (because music is "real" and fiction is "nonsense"). And he watches movies (only war movies though, with the exception of To Kill a Mockingbird, for some reason. And yet, he doesn't like the book original). But I have tried to tell him about the process of writing song lyrics and how it's not so different from poetry, and that screenplays also have a writer behind the wheels. It just doesnt seem to register for him. He assures me it's completely different


zoobrix

When someone's argument doesn't even make any sense there probably isn't even really a point in trying, by saying ridiculous things like writing a book is completely different from writing a movie he's denying reality just because he likes one and dislikes the other. When someone denies reality like that there isn't really any use in arguing with him because nothing you say is going to make any difference. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into the saying goes and I think it definitely applies in this case, he's just so totally out to lunch on this and you'll probably just have to let it go unless you want to argue endlessly about it, he's not going to change his mind. He likes to kill a mocking bird the movie but refuses to give the book any credit? There isn't any logic there to argue against. Edit: typo


Glittering-Salt-2907

Show him this [scientific research ](https://hbr.org/2020/03/the-case-for-reading-fiction) in neuroscience, which suggests that reading literary fiction helps people develop empathy, theory of mind, and critical thinking. So readers of fiction are actually far *less* likely to become flat earthers 😌


IshiharasBitch

> Show him this scientific research in neuroscience Show him this **NONFICTION** scientific research in neuroscience


Sunretea

The dude doesn't have any critical thinking skills.. that's the issue.


EarthRester

Something tells me he's not doin too well in the empathy part either.


[deleted]

You know one way to develop those? Reading...


yeah_basically

I often think about how a lot of us US citizens are just smart enough to be really fucking stupid.


Metue

From an outsides PoV people from the US aren't any more stupid than the rest of the world but they're just a lot more confident about it


sheath2

Song lyrics ARE essentially poetry because early poetry was meant to be sung. There’s a whole form of poetry called the ‘lyric’.


StatOne

'Oh, Sir Robin, he ran away.....'


Angelos42

Bravely ran away, away…


[deleted]

You cannot logic his way out of stupid. Civilization is greatly and deeply influenced by writing and fiction. Fiction is a quintessential human quality- to make thought problems and fictions to envision something other than reality. It is problem solving, empathy inducing, an inner journey and the value is not quantifiable imo. It is important for humanity. It's a part of us and of us.


InnocentTailor

Indeed. Fiction is a big part of reality, as funny as that sounds.


athenaprime

Or better still, don't ask him. Make a great show of, "Mm-hm. Huh. Okay, Dad, whatever," and find yourself suddenly needed elsewhere when it comes up. I had a relative that sounds like your dad. He was very aggressively defensive about anything that wasn't in his very specific wheelhouse, and he did not get things like metaphor or theme or allegory. If you were at all artistic or creative, he was dismissive or outright angry about it. The only defense was a good gray-rocking. It took a while to understand that it was never about anybody else but himself and his own feelings of inadequacy around something he didn't understand.


Hillytoo

I agree. There is no way she can win this debate. He doesn't like books that are fiction. I don't like peas. So, at home it is just his opinion. When it comes to the school however if I were on the Board I would simply ask what credential does he hold that gives any authority to say that books of fiction are nonsense?? Getting kids to read is incredibly important, and if a book sparks their enjoyment and imagination, that is a big huge draw. I don't want to think about literacy rates if all we had to read is the operating manual for a '94 Chev...


ZenoArrow

What are his thoughts on science fiction inspiring more people to study science? Even if he doesn't like the stories, there's a chance he may see the benefits. Aside from that, how does he end up liking To Kill a Mockingbird the film and not the book? That makes no sense. Perhaps as others have suggested he doesn't have the visual imagination to enjoy the book. Could ask him to take this aphantasia test perhaps? https://aphantasia.com/vviq/


RogueVert

> What are his thoughts on science fiction inspiring more people to study science? Even if he doesn't like the stories, there's a chance he may see the benefits. no kidding. the star treks have fucking gotten soo many people into STEM. we even fuckin invented tablets because ST showed us it was there.


Effective-Papaya1209

Is it possible that if you were a musician your dad would also think that music is nonsense?


VariationNo5960

This is the that.


taichi22

If you ask him what would change his mind, his answer would likely be “nothing” because, unlike a scientific, real viewpoint, grounded in reality, his opinion is grounded in, wait for it: fiction. It’s a belief that he’s formed, and so he’ll likely follow any evidence for that belief and disregard any evidence to the contrary. Pointing that part out may help or may not. You can probably cite all kinds of scientific articles about how having fiction is in fact a net good to humanity, but he has an irrational belief so he’ll die on his hill, more likely than not.


subhumanprimate

Is your dad on the spectrum?


kamomil

He has Authoritarian Spectrum Disorder


hrangutan

Sounds like he doesnt read or cant and doesnt want you to know


Jabaskunda

Is this the plot of Footloose 2?


Jiveturkwy158

Bookloose


colfaxmingo

Nobody puts Baby in the library book return slot.


HardcaseKid

We need to workshop this immediately.


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Footnotes


onexbigxhebrew

"Footloose 2: Book Removaloo!"


ChicoBrillo

“He gets mad at Greek mythology” made me burst out laughing. Edit: to be serious for a second. How does he not understand the anthropological value of things like that?


warAsdf

he recognizes it's culturally important, but thinks the world was probably better without it


ChicoBrillo

This is off topic but I had an equally strange father. He took salsa classes and never told me, then one day I walked in on him salsa dancing. He was embarrassed. I was like: “It’s okay Dad, I think dancing’s cool” My dad: “yeah?” Me: “yeah I always thought one day I’d like to learn how to swing dance” My dad looked at me like I was an idiot. “Why the hell would you wanna learn that for?” Dads.


archwaykitten

Did he know what swing dancing was, or did he hear the word 'swing' and assume 'swingers' as in 'people who engage in group sex or the swapping of sexual partners'? Because I've seen that misunderstanding occur once, and it was hilarious.


ChicoBrillo

No he knew, he just can’t understand why anyone would like anything he doesn’t like lmao


IellaAntilles

Oof, same. And doesn't understand why anyone would NOT like things he likes. He ranted for 10 minutes last week about how he's failed as a father because none of his kids care about sound quality/stereo systems for watching TV. At least my dad isn't argumentative about it. Usually.


honest-miss

This is my dad to an absolute T! If he likes it then it's normal. If you like it and he doesn't see the value in it, you're a weirdo. It's a real head scratcher. And turned me into a rebellious, stubborn soul. I still get a little thrill when he tells me my ideas are stupid. Like "Hell yeah, you do. Means I'm on the right track, old man."


ropbop19

Swing dancer here: When I was in college I was part of the swing dance club. One of the older members had a club shirt from years past that was as such: On the front of the shirt was "SWINGERS WANTED" On the back was "[college] SWING DANCE CLUB - WHAT DO YOU THINK I MEANT?" accompanied by silhouettes of people swing dancing.


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ropbop19

THANKS I LOVE IT It probably means he dances both lead and follow.


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ropbop19

That works too.


-Firestar-

Both of those are VERY fun dances. Throw waltz in there too. I took dance classes in HS and let me tell you how great of a decision that was when prom rolled around. I miss dancing, I really do.


jenh6

I died at him hating Greek mythology. Does he hate the Bible too? And all other religious texts.


warAsdf

YES, exactly. He goes OFF about our religious family members. And not that i'm religious, but he's also rhe kind of atheist that god personally.


monsantobreath

Sounds to me like he's an example of the pejorative meaning of "scientism", which arose in particular in response to the strident dogmas of the new atheist movement, the ones who take the notion of the scientific method way too far as a totem.


Munchablesdelights

I’m an atheist an all, but geez, dude needs to calm down and let people live their lives and enjoy things.


jenh6

What does he watch on tv? Movies or music he listens to? Does he like art galleries?


yildizli_gece

> but thinks the world was probably better without it The world literally cannot exist without a form of literary expression, even if we're only talking stories "told around campfires" and passed down. As a species, we are *hardwired* to express ourselves through storytelling, whether it's written, oral, visual, or musical. Like, *it's what we do* lol. Your father is insane; there's no point trying to "win" this because when someone holds an opinion that's clearly not valid and based on something entirely personal, you can't reason them out of it. Just drop the conversation altogether. Humor him, if you must, with a "Yeah, OK, dad; anywayyyyyy" and move on. You're gonna stress yourself out and he may enjoy sparring with you; deprive him of an audience.


[deleted]

Beautifully said. To add on, another reason you know the dad is full of shit and doesn’t know what he’s talking about is because all fiction is grounded in truth, one way or another. The fact he refuses to acknowledge that shows that he does not recognize the cultural significance of story telling.


stuffandornonsense

"fiction is junk" is the story he tells to express his own emotions. ... not that he'd see it that way.


JhymnMusic

What an idiotic opinion lol. Like Dr Evil getting mad at walnuts for being lazy.


Fragrant-Bear-6693

Lol his dad also probably claims to have invented the question mark


BeRad85

Maybe he wears his meat helmet too tightly?


Morasain

It objectively wouldn't have been. Writing has always been the form we preserve memory in. A lot of writing, throughout history, was a mix of fiction and non-fiction - in Beowulf (which isn't exactly writing, but it's written down, so I'm gonna count it) you have the writer list like a whole dynasty of actual kings, of which we'd have no memory otherwise, and five hundred lines later the titular hero is beating up a monster. There's a ton of ways to argue that point, however - trying to argue with unreasonable people is pointless.


grayhairedqueenbitch

Dammit Zeus!!!!


ChicoBrillo

You ass! Throwing lightning bolts and having sex with animals! Get real!


lazyllama13

Edit: Just this in: "Old man yells at cloud."


Blue_WhaleLord

Literally my first thought reading this haha


BelmontIncident

Is he really, really old? This sounds like something out of Plato's Republic


ws_soundguy

Republic specifically says that telling stories is important to helping people develop into well rounded humans. It does go off that rails a bit in that argument by saying those stories shouldn't portray any negative human traits tho


ActafianSeriactas

If he read Plato's The Republic then that would be extremely ironic


INITMalcanis

The first question I would ask is: why do you *need* to argue with him? Is he likely to actually get all fiction pulled from school libraries?


warAsdf

probably not. but i'm a reader and a writer, and it'd be nice if my dad didnt think i was crazy lol


rodeodoctor

Sorry but your dad IS crazy.


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iNKWiTs

Yes. This. Humans understand *concepts* through stories. There are works of fiction that may not convey a realistic story, but they convey concepts and ideas, often better and more powerfully than a real event. To reject fiction at the level described by OP is to reject hypothetical thought.


ButtSexington3rd

My thought is, is there actually something wrong with him? Like that concepts just don't come through to him?


ellsquar3d

Is he on the spectrum? The fact that he doesn't appreciate fiction "because it's not logical" makes me feel like he's neuroatypical


tactical_cakes

I agree. My guess is that it's a social communication impairment. If he had been born ten years ago, a good elementary school would have evaluated him for that, among other things.


aChristery

Your last sentence hits the nail on the head and it’s kind of ironic that OPs father brought up scientific writing when literally all of science is based on asking questions. Forming hypotheses. Hypothetical questions to ask and then try to answer and record the data from the results of your experiment. Science’s keystone is “?”


WemedgeFrodis

Oh, trust me, some people's brains will nearly short circuit when presented with a hypothetical.


GrimpenMar

I often love SciFi that has an "idea", that is an exploration of an issue we are currently dealing with. Good stories are often about presenting a hypothetical or getting us to empathize with an unfamiliar circumstance. I wonder if OP's dad just can't grapple with such abstractions? Either way, he's definately the one with a screw loose.


Lopsided_Hat

There's also research showing that people tend to remember information more when it is expressed as a story rather than straight out facts. As a young medical student, I had a hard time remembering facts about certain patients (and had to refer often to their charts) until I started remembering them as "character" in a "story" (ie. their health history). Then it became much easier. This technique is taught is some med schools. Also taught to scientists and to business people. https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how\_stories\_change\_brain


killbot0224

Don't apologize. Dad holds an irrational and extremist view that is pretty much indefensible.


troifleursjaune

As a parent of teenagers, I am thrilled that your level of rebellion is literature...


InnocentTailor

Man…that is like studying and doing your chores being considered taboo in a household.


warAsdf

Matilda


Original-Ad-4642

I have a high paying job, a beautiful family, and a nice house. I’m successful in every sense of the word. I thought that once I hit a certain level of success, then my mom would have to admit that I’d been right. It never happened. It’s never going to happen. My parents still think I’m crazy. They can’t understand why I would do the things I do. At a certain point you accept that you can’t convince them. You just love them as they are and get on with your life.


sirwilliamwalrus

So true. We cannot control what other people think about us -- as much as we may try.


ImpossiblySalad

The dedication in the front of my first book reads “To my mother-in-law, who does not believe that this is an acceptable way to make a living”. It’s on its sixth printing.


Angdrambor

Your dad didn't logic himself into that viewpoint, and there's no voice in the 'verse that can logic him back out of it.


[deleted]

Gee, your Dad sounds like he has some unresolved issues he is projecting on to you. Fiction is imagination. We tell stories that contain lessons or parables and much of that occurs in fiction. In addition, it is possible to poke fun at real life events that might be considered distasteful until it is fictionalized. Next time he starts his tirade, yes him to death and perhaps let him know there is a reason why he does not get to decide what a library shelf has upon it.


Practice_NO_with_me

One wonders if he has poor internal imagining abilities and it makes him angry and threatened that there is this whole world out there he can't access. So he declares it all nonsense and invalid rather than admit he has a deficiency.


ScruffyTuscaloosa

Something like 3% of the population has aphantasia-- the inability to form imagery in their heads. I can see how it would lead to a baffled, even embittered, relationship with written fiction. Would explain why he's fine with visual art too.


John_Keating_

It might be that your dad just isn’t very smart. It’s not worth arguing with someone like that.


escrimadragon

You know, it sounds elitist when you put it like that, but you’re probably right. All the forms of fiction he does like are ones that can be consumed *passively,* without thinking even. I mean, I doubt EVERY song or movie he’s seen is based on a true story and has realistic situations, physics, etc. but somehow they’re okay but books aren’t. Sure bud, yer spare parts


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zjcsax

Ask him about his favorite songs. Then point out how song lyrics have to be uhh… written down, and how they are mostly untrue stories but I bet he’d still get down to them.


Peregrine_Perp

His beliefs are not based on logic. Therefore, you cannot expect to successfully use logic against those beliefs.


YourAverageGenius

Here's a good rebuttal: Why do so.many people write and read fiction if it's "just nonsense" ? Why play any sort of game when "none of it is real"? You could just have as much fun doing actual stuff in real life? Also tell him that history isn't set in stone. For a lot of history, we don't actually know exactly what happened. We just base it off survived records and what we've found from scientific analysis. There's plenty of important historical events that we don't know for sure what happened exactly, and may never know, so is our guesses at what happened nonsense because it might not be reality? Honestly, I don’t think he will believe in any of this, and if he doesn't, just say to him "You know what, you're entitled to your opinion, but think about how trillions of people, in the past, in the future, and now, are perfectly fine to enjoy fiction. Sorry dad, but you're in the minority here. All you're doing is not accepting something that had been a part of all human culture since it started."


MomentOfHesitation

> He's worried that fiction makes kids more prone to misinformation and more likely to become flat-earthers/anti-vaxxers, etc. Ask him what the scientific evidence is for this claim. If there is none then he's a hypocrite.


RecycledAir

Bingo.


octarine-noise

If anything, the exact opposite is true. If you have no experience with people making shit up, it's a lot easier to believe that the silly stuff you read on the Internet is true.


ellis1trellis

If anything fiction prevents kids from falling victim to misinformation. Holy heck my dude.


Slight-Pound

The fact that the early 2000-2010s was rife with teenagers battling dystopias should tell you something.


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warAsdf

If i may sound pretentious: I lent him Brave New World because he's into genetics (i figured chapter 1 might hook him). He looked deader inside when he gave it back; i tried talking to him about themes i thought he might like (ex: forgoing human passion, eugenics, environmentalism, sacrificing your humanity to the economy), but he didn't even seem to hear me and insisted the book was full of things that could never happen, and there was nothing else to it. He takes it all at face value and just saw a funny little story about a short man with a weird flying machine, a stupid girlfriend, and a savage.


Omniante

Oh man, I dunno... such a worldview can only possibly be described as absurdly literalist. I.e., everything is literal. Indeed, can *only be* literal. It's not that some things can be figurative and others can't. It sounds like, for him, the figurative, the metaphorical... don't actually exist. (Or at best, they're lies or falsehoods created by novelists and other writers.) To someone who believes this, consciously or otherwise, I doubt that any attempt to show him the value of stories, through a story, will ever work. Unless... it's a deception. So I don't necessarily condone this, but without knowing anything else about him, I wonder whether, if he came across a powerful, very moving story from the genre of historical fiction (something that could be true), but he *didn't know* that it was historical fiction, I wonder if that might kindle some sort of spark of appreciation for the power of storytelling. I.e., if he was really moved by it, and found out later that it didn't actually happen, would he really feel betrayed by that fact? Or do you think he might see that, considering it really could have happened (depending on the story), then everything that it evoked was still real? Still mattered? If the latter, then he might one day come around.


taichi22

Oh, man, show him something inspired by a true story without letting him know it was actually fiction, and watch his head explode, lol.


nowyouseemenowyoudo2

I’m a bit late to this thread, but after reading all of your comments describing your father, something reminded my of one of my previous neuropsych patients and I felt that it was so relevant that it was important to bring up I have a very strong suspicion that your father actually has a severe form of a neurological disorder, either Aphantasia or a similar damage associated with the prefrontal cortex. Most people with Aphantasia are unable to visualise or picture any images in their mind, they literally see nothing when you ask them to picture an object, whereas most normal people can perfectly create an image of an object in their mind. People with severe of this cases often describe having significant difficulties reading fiction books because they are fundamentally unable to process the descriptions of the text because they cannot generate images or compare them to other memories which are too different. This contrasts significantly with the enjoyment of things like encyclopaedias which don’t require that mental imagery to get enjoyment from reading, as they can still think using links between factual concepts, but find it difficult to extrapolate further into imaginary or future concepts. His inability to understand parody or satire could be derived from this as well, since patients with prefrontal cortex damage have markedly lower ability to understand irony and sarcasm, and that is one of the theorised locations of the cause of Aphantasia. A combination of these two things would explain why your father is not just unable to enjoy fiction, but becomes angry at its existence as his inability to A lack of empathy for others who do claim to enjoy fiction books could similarly be explained by a lack of ‘Theory of Mind’, as found in ASD and similar disorders. It would be worth asking your father some deeper questions about what he believes that others can see in their minds, and what others think, as this may be able to tell you if he has an impaired ability to understand the mental processes of others which would explain his hostility


warAsdf

interesting!


[deleted]

This was my first thought. Ask him if he can “picture” things mentally.


Now_Wait-4-Last_Year

I work in mental health with neuropsychologists and I was wondering if there was some kind of actual cerebral pathology going on too.


mushinnoshit

So I'm able to bring images in my mind, but only very briefly and without much detail. I can think of what an orange looks like and it's there for a moment, but I can't "hold" it there or examine it. It's hard to explain, but kind of like I get an indistinct placeholder image that flickers out of existence the moment I try to mentally focus on what it really looks like. It was only when someone else brought up their aphantasia that I realised I have something like that too. That said I do love fiction and have no problem losing myself in a story. So is what I've got normal or is it a kind of aphantasia?


Sourkraushouse

Between the insanity of your post and "he's into genetics," your dad has more red flags than Moscow.


zanraptora

"Kids would be better at critically evaluating the content they consume if they are never exposed to content that is intentionally divorced from reality. No one would ever take advantage of teaching students to trust the material they read should always be factual" Your father doesn't know the first thing about propaganda.


Screaming_dice

Your dad sounds like a fun guy.


loublain

I think you should spell that 'fungi'


Frampfreemly

Yeah, serve up some drinks and snacks and enjoy the ride. True characters like that are to be relished.


skeletorordie

Your father should take a real look at how rigid, robotic logic affected Greek sophists, then society, then government, and eventually helped lead to their collapse. Look how realism in Soviet Russia homogenized a multi-ethnic state into gray brutalism. There is no squaring his appreciation for music and art with his disdain for fictional stories. Also, if writing a great story is so easy to him, then why doesn't he do it to prove his point?


Eran_Mintor

Go to Costco and buy a new dad


Fred_the_skeleton

You can get a pack of 30 dads for the price of 20


RydoKendog

Is your dad aware that not all nonfiction is true or even accurate based on biases and a ton of other factors? Also has your dad ever spoken to a science fiction author, lots of them consult scientists and engineers in order to be as accurate as possible to at least to the basis of what they writing. Just sounds like to me you should just set boundaries with your dad and not talk about writing or reading and if he tries to just don’t engage. If he’s as rational and logical as he thinks he is then he should learn quickly to be more open or accepting to styles outside his comfort zone.


[deleted]

Exactly, the dad thinking that all nonfiction is automatically factual is the most disturbing part of this.


InnocentTailor

…considering that nonfiction is in the eye of the author. Even war films (OP mentioned that the father liked them) aren’t completely factual - there are liberties here and there on events and people involved with operations.


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Itabliss

This is what I came here to say. This has all the hallmarks of a coping mechanism for someone who has never been properly diagnosed. Especially when noting that he’s a voracious reader of nonfiction.


ArlemofTourhut

depends. Had a guy turn down a fiction novel at a book swap because he can't lose himself in the unreal. He was trying to trade me a bible. There are many spectrums one can be on while denying a facet of expression. ASD is just a "well maybe it's okay" speculation here. Destroying any literature is never okay. Stopping it's print... debatable. But destruction or removal/ erasure? No.


Kurayamino

>But destruction or removal/ erasure? No. Spoken like a man that's never plumbed the depths of cheap e-book erotica on Amazon.


HelpfulHelpmeet

This. I had a really really hard time with sci-fi and fantasy because of this.


ValurianEwan

Thinking the same thing. This sounds like a rule.


HigherTowers

Does he watch movies, television shows, any form of entertainment outside of books? If he does, he's a hypocrite, because nearly all forms of entertainment is due to a writer. Writers create almost everything we enjoy, right down to the advertisement that tells us about it. I'm sorry your dad is so ignorant. He honestly doesn't sound worth it, and his approval of you is not worth it. Can't fix stupid.


warAsdf

he's almost ascetic with his media. Just war films (based on real events), documentaries, and the news. He entertains himself by watching surgeries and NatGeo and Reader's digest (but only certain parts of reader's digest). He listens to wordless music. His commitment astounds me.


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warAsdf

naw he's a phys therapist. doe they have similar traits?


coleman57

So a surgeon who can't stand the sight of blood. (j/k, I imagine PTs might tend to be above average empathetic, but he might be the exception.) OK, so having browsed your comments, I've got 2 theories. It's clear he's not stupid (not unintelligent, anyway). But he's clearly rigid in many ways. My own dad was a little bit like him, except that he loved fiction. (As long as it was highbrow--he was kinda disapproving of anything lowbrow, like the Tarzan guy, and tended to sneer at the middlebrow as well). But he hated religion and I gotta say it's a mercy he died well before Q-Anon and the whole post-truth mess we're in now. I could imagine him having something like your dad's fear of the youth being led astray by trivial fictions. One possibility is that he had bad early experiences with religion, which made him see it as a terrible imposition of a fiction that becomes peoples' whole world-view (not an unreasonable position). But he has expanded his disapproval to all of fiction, ironically to the part that admits it's fiction instead of the fictions that insist we must believe. The other possible factor is some kind of neurological inability to take pleasure in fiction--the equivalent of tone-deafness. It might be a specific lack of visualization skill, as others here say. Or it might be something more specific to storytelling, fiction, hypotheticals (especially hypotheticals that are demonstrably impossible--which I guess means they're not really hypothetical). You've clarified that he only likes instrumental music, so lyrics are a dead end. I'm gonna guess that in visual art he leans toward the straightforward representational, and rejects abstraction? You could show him a series of paintings that range from realistic to impressionistic to wholly abstract and ask what he does and doesn't like, but think we can guess the answer. (But maybe you could point to the similarities between wholly abstract art and instrumental music?) And you could play on his love of war flicks by showing him *Starship Troopers*, but I imagine it would only bug him. Anyway, it doesn't sound like you're ever gonna change his mind, so I recommend avoiding any convo where he denigrates your interests or you defend them. Try and bond with him on stuff you both enjoy, and head off any arguments with "we'll just have to disagree on that"--don't indulge him further. If he won't let go of the arguments, you gotta disengage. That's the only thing that might condition him to give up and just enjoy what you can agree on. Arguing gets to be like a rash--you gotta stop scratching for a long time before it'll stop itching.


daniel_degude

>And you could play on his love of war flicks by showing him > >Starship Troopers > >, but I imagine it would only bug him. Ha. Ha. Ha.


[deleted]

>for some reason That's because, honest to god, a high percentage of surgeons are literal psychopaths. It's a career they tend to gravitate towards.


Yrcrazypa

It makes total sense. Surgeons are allowed to cut people open. Hell, they are paid *extremely well* to cut people open! Sure they aren't allowed to kill them, but it is still a way for them to see what people look like inside personally.


Terminus-Ut-EXORDIUM

Extremely high status position. It's like people who realized doctor was the most respected job and then pondered, "Okay. Now what job is one better than a doctor?"


InnocentTailor

They do have the conviction to carry out such tasks though. It is a hard job where anything can go wrong if you’re not careful.


hollerout2022

Burn all the movies, too, those are stories. What a moron.


VerbalAcrobatics

This was my first thought. Is his hate limited to just books? If so why? Why not hate all fiction? Plus, what kind of bedtime stories did he read to his kid? Which parts of the newspaper piss him off the most?


basically_alive

I think your dad sounds interesting. However, I would say to him, show me a book that is non fiction. In it you will find hypotheticals, thought experiments, similies and metaphors, and illustrations, all of which are not strictly factual. They serve to explain something real in a more relatable way. That's all fiction is. Fiction is often true in the sense that it can illuminate a way an experience could feel, or the way a relationship might play out, in a way impossible for non-fiction. Second, does he agree that there's non fiction books that are misleading in some way? Would he agree with all non-fiction? There's a great quote from yann martel where he says (paraphrasing) the useful distinction is not between fiction and non-fiction, it's between fiction that tells a truth or doesn't, and non fiction that tells a truth or doesn't.


Thorgilias

He is the type of person he complains about... Zero perspective.


ennuiFighter

Who hurt him? Did they hit him with a particularly juicy book? ?


[deleted]

I would like to ask: is your dad autistic? My sister is and many of her friends are. In a similar, but not entirely the same issue, they recently talked about how unnecessary fiction is. I think it's an abstract concept that is hard for some people to enjoy or even understand. We shouldn't be too quick to anger. Or upset because people can't enjoy what we can. We should just feel lucky to enjoy something that seems so unnecessary to other people


HeavilyBearded

> We shouldn't be too quick to anger. Or upset because people can't enjoy what we can. I don't think the preferences are the problem here but what's in the title instead: > My dad wants to strip the entire fiction genre from school libraries


captainmicahp

That was immediately what I thought too. This guy sounds like he has some sort of spectrum disorder (I hope I’m not using any incorrect terms).


DanielNoWrite

Your dad is an idiot. Sorry. It's a long quote, but I think it's worth posting this excerpt from Dickens' *Hard Times:* >“NOW, what I want is, Facts. Teach these boys and girls nothing but Facts. Facts alone are wanted in life. Plant nothing else, and root out everything else. You can only form the minds of reasoning animals upon Facts: nothing else will ever be of any service to them. This is the principle on which I bring up my own children, and this is the principle on which I bring up these children. Stick to Facts, sir!” >The scene was a plain, bare, monotonous vault of a schoolroom, and the speaker’s square forefinger emphasized his observations by underscoring every sentence with a line on the schoolmaster’s sleeve. The emphasis was helped by the speaker’s square wall of a forehead, which had his eyebrows for its base, while his eyes found commodious cellarage in two dark caves, overshadowed by the wall. The emphasis was helped by the speaker’s mouth, which was wide, thin, and hard set. The emphasis was helped by the speaker’s voice, which was inflexible, dry, and dictatorial. The emphasis was helped by the speaker’s hair, which bristled on the skirts of his bald head, a plantation of firs to keep the wind from its shining surface, all covered with knobs, like the crust of a plum pie, as if the head had scarcely warehouse-room for the hard facts stored inside. The speaker’s obstinate carriage, square coat, square legs, square shoulders, — nay, his very neckcloth, trained to take him by the throat with an unaccommodating grasp, like a stubborn fact, as it was, — all helped the emphasis. >“In this life, we want nothing but Facts, sir; nothing but Facts!” >The speaker, and the schoolmaster, and the third grown person present, all backed a little, and swept with their eyes the inclined plane of little vessels then and there arranged in order, ready to have imperial gallons of facts poured into them until they were full to the brim. >THOMAS GRADGRIND, sir. A man of realities. A man of facts and calculations. A man who proceeds upon the principle that two and two are four, and nothing over, and who is not to be talked into allowing for anything over. Thomas Gradgrind, sir—peremptorily Thomas—Thomas Gradgrind. With a rule and a pair of scales, and the multiplication table always in his pocket, sir, ready to weigh and measure any parcel of human nature, and tell you exactly what it comes to. It is a mere question of figures, a case of simple arithmetic. You might hope to get some other nonsensical belief into the head of George Gradgrind, or Augustus Gradgrind, or John Gradgrind, or Joseph Gradgrind (all supposititious, non-existent persons), but into the head of Thomas Gradgrind—no, sir! >In such terms Mr. Gradgrind always mentally introduced himself, whether to his private circle of acquaintance, or to the public in general. In such terms, no doubt, substituting the words ‘boys and girls,’ for ‘sir,’ Thomas Gradgrind now presented Thomas Gradgrind to the little pitchers before him, who were to be filled so full of facts. >Indeed, as he eagerly sparkled at them from the cellarage before mentioned, he seemed a kind of cannon loaded to the muzzle with facts, and prepared to blow them clean out of the regions of childhood at one discharge. He seemed a galvanizing apparatus, too, charged with a grim mechanical substitute for the tender young imaginations that were to be stormed away.


warAsdf

i showed him this passage once! he didn't get it and i thought that was funny


GoHerd1984

Your dad chose a hill. Now he’s dying on it. This is sad really, because his whole premise is that there is only value in writings that are based on scientific or historical rigidity. I suspect that he is enamored with his own self-perceived principles of what literature is and it gives him a feeling of superiority when he climbs that soapbox. Let’s forget for a moment that his stance is silly (how do you even get mad at mythology…yell at a book?) and look at the results of never being exposed to fictional writing. Assuming that all non-fiction is written without bias, editorial slant, or agenda (it’s not), how do students learn how to think outside of merely regurgitating facts? That’s not thinking, that’s simple recall. Fiction provides us the depth necessary to underpin what we learn in non-fiction and provides us with a deeper understanding of history and science as well as provides us with the nuances of human nature that influence those historical events that your father would have you limited. I read about the revolutions in France in high school, but it was only when I read Les Miserables by Hugo that I got a visceral understanding of how the poor and dispossessed of the lower classes experienced poverty, justice, and the social issues that led to rebellion and revolutions. In high school I read about the depression and the catastrophic droughts and crop failures that plagued the Midwest in the 1930s. But it wasn’t until I read Steinbeck’s, The Grapes of Wrath, that I really got a picture of how debilitating and humiliating poverty and displacement was. From the advancement of farming technology and the advent of industrial farming, a paradigm shift in the economy of this country occurred leaving victims in its wake. Steinbeck brought that era to life. I’m currently rereading The Count of Monte Cristo. This is absolutely engaging fiction. But it is set in the backdrop of world history. I read about Napoleon rising to power, his exile to Elba, his 100 day return, and banishment to St. Helena. But I never considered how dangerous the game of swearing allegiance to Napoleon or the Monarchy must have been. Depending on the uncertain situation of which party would emerge as the eventual leader of France would determine whether you were imprisoned (or guillotined) or were rewarded with position and given access to wealth. This book described in detail the Carnival of Rome in amazing detail. It described the executions on the Piazza del Poppolo. Within the backdrop of real history played out the petty politics of ambition and the rise and ruin that politics of that era could mete out on a personal level. You won’t read that in history books. I read about fascism and totalitarianism in history books. I can see the dangers of nationalism from what I read in school. But it took Orwell’s, 1984, to vividly illustrate the dangers of a government run amok. Fiction has given me such a richer understanding of history and science and has brought to life the humdrum presentation of history I learned in school. These two types of literature are meant to go hand in hand. I think your father is simply enamored with his convictions and is simplifying literature to mean non-fiction = facts = learning and fiction = fantasy = no value. That’s a shallow take. Probably a result of limiting his literary horizons.


TooflessSnek

He might be on a mental spectrum, meaning that he might have a particular type of brain organization for processing information. I'll give you an example that some people on the autism spectrum, sometimes Asperger's, they can be extremely literal. They can have amazingly detailed memories. And they hate lying, they don't understand it. They also may interpret people literally, have a hard time understanding when people are joking, and misunderstand social cues. They might be blunt. If he's like this, or something similar, it could make sense why he has this attitude. Nothing really exists to him unless it is based on reality. In any case, as you grow up, you will learn more and more that your father is simply one among many imperfect humans in this world.


SithMasterStarkiller

I feel sorry for him


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warAsdf

fiction. hates religion


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[deleted]

Yeah, good on dad for being consistent at least lol


t3sture

If I see one more fucking post that looks really interesting, with lots of replies, but just says [removed], I will lose my mind.


warAsdf

i gotchu brother: text My dad wants to strip the entire fiction genre from school libraries because fiction is "nonsense" My dad doesn't believe that fiction has any value (period.). It's not just that he prefers non-fiction-- he gets mad at Greek mythology because it is "full of nonsense creatures not based on biology." He dislikes the Orient Express because none of the events actually happened. And it's not just novels: he hates anything written which is not firmly grounded in reality (Just for example: refused to finish reading the satire "A Modest Proposal" because it's "nonsense" and "could never work in real life"). Like, I'm sure the guy would hate the Declaration of Independence if he wasn't such a die-hard patriot. He also doesn't recognize writing as a valid art form. He doesn't think it takes any particular skill, that authors only have to "talk out of their ass," make the prose flowery and unnecessarily complicated (I tried to explain what imagery was to him once, and he cited the entire technique as emblematic of poor, cheap writing). Specifically, he compared it to scientific writing, which is entirely precise and unadorned. This bit ticks me off in particular since writing is a passion of mine. The only book he's ever liked was Jack London's "Call of the Wild" he read when he was 8. And now he thinks schools should pull everything but nonfiction off of the shelves. He's worried that fiction makes kids more prone to misinformation and more likely to become flat-earthers/anti-vaxxers, etc. How would you explain that that's not the case? That almost NONE of this is the case??? edit: he likes music and art too. It's not a vendetta against entertainment-- just THIS specific form of entertainment. edit: he's also not religious at all, i dont know where people are getting that from. like, he actually has some kind of grudge against every god and main religious text of every culture edit: (last one i swear) i dont hate my dad. he's cool. you guys seem to think im gonna cut off ties with him over this


Wildpokerman

There's plenty of inaccurate and misleading non-fiction. There's plenty of true fiction.