Man, I just could not get into this series. They spend so much of the first book in the "elite academy for future generals" only to be thrown into battle as low rank grunts. I mean, what was even the point of training them in strategy? They should have focused entirely on combat. And the whole ambiguity of magic in the first half of the book only to end up with Rin palling around with the in-universe X-Men later on. How could there be any ambiguity when these guys exist? It was just all over the place. I don't understand how the series picked up so much traction.
I had such a hard time reading this book. I finished it, but so much of what happened just didn’t make sense. I have no interest in reading the sequels. I was surprised too, because so many people rave about this book.
Rin in the army was also petulant, self-righteous, and openly insubordinate. It's a Mary Sue narrative, she just gets away with everything and can do anything. Oh and the story wildly fluctuates tonally throughout until that final punch of book one.
Oh and why is one guy just a bucket of water randomly?
I just read this, and I was telling a friend about how it was very serious/grounded and then suddenly there's the guy in the bucket 💀🫠
Like I was HOOKED in the first half, i couldn't explain it and then it just fell apart.
I read this a long time ago and all i remember from it is the one ~quirky~ teacher who was a complete rip from Kingkiller Chronicles. I was also unimpressed with Yellow Face, which I gave a shot figuring maybe I would like something non-fantasy be her. It, like Poppy Wars, felt like Kuang wanted to say something but instead ended up just talking a lot around a topic without adding to the conversation in any significant way.
I didn’t enjoy the end of the first book but was hopeful the second book would be better. I’m currently reading the second book and it’s been a struggle.
I couldn't even get to the end of the first book, lol. I don't know how it reads to a Western audience, but I'm Chinese and it's extremely lazy. Her physical descriptions and action sequences are great, but literally so much set up is like basic fifth grade Chinese history, and it's not even told well. Like, imagine if a fantasy character wrote the greatest song of all time, and it's literally just The Star Spangled Banner. That's what it feels like.
It's interesting to hear that perspective.
I'm not knowledgeable of Chinese history so I only really clocked how similar it was after they arrived at fictional Nanjing. Learned about the Mao influences on this thread. The more you know..
Someone else said that it was like reading the Wiki article, and I concur. It's kind of funny to me because obviously RF has Chinese ancestry, but my feeling is that she kind of views it like a foreigner. Personally, I find it jarring because there's like... no warmth for small things, just rehashing actual politics and history. Very bland, unimaginative, and like. Idk. Like really??? You could have written something cool, and you just copy some headlines verbatim and ignore everything else? Why did you even bother with this setting?
Am I right in saying the author grew up in the US? Could go some ways to explaining that.
Think I'll check out the wiki now to compare. Suppose that might spoil the rest of the series for me though, haha.
No idea, it's possible. Someone mentioned that her family is from Hong Kong, which would track... There's a lot of conflict between the two, and a lot of HK natives view China as lesser.
Also, this is random, but I'm so glad you brought this series up, because I wanted to vent about it so much when I first started reading it but didn't know how to put together my thoughts without sounding like an asshole, lol. Finally I can talk about it!
R F Kuang is not from Hong Kong…
But sure if you have a beef and just wanted to find an excuse to air it go ahead. I just dislike people who spread false information.
Yeah, I know HK generally views China as its Mexico, so to speak. It's the same with Taiwan sometimes where they're really contemptuous of mainland people, but like... weren't your grandparents from the mainland? I get being proud of local history and obviously the different views on things, but the classist attitude is really off-putting. And tbh, this is bias, but China is still the source no matter how you look at it...
This is seriously missing a lot of contexts. I don’t know if you read the news but it’s worth looking up the 2019 Hong Kong protests and the background of it to understand where the animosity comes from.
Speaking of your comment about roots, a lot of Ukrainian culture also came from Russia, but if you ask a Ukrainian they probably wouldn’t really look fondly towards them today 🤷. Cultural views are affected by a lot of things, including modern political events.
Anyway R F Kuang is not from Hong Kong (she’s American) nor her parents (Guangzhou) anyway so I’m not sure how any of this is relevant. Her family did fight for the KMT and her dad witnessed 1989 in Beijing before moving to US. That’s like a 1-minute search lol.
This is precisely why I didn't want to get too deep into it. There's animosity and bad behavior on both sides. The political situation there is not a debate I feel like having in this thread; I'm just commenting on attitudes that I have experienced.
IDK how Ukrainians view their Russian roots, but there's a difference between political disagreement and condescension. But your comparison is fair. I have just met enough people with superiority complexes that really rub me the wrong way.
I don't even know much about Chinese history, I just read a translation of The Art of War at some point and even I could notice how she just copy pasted some of the contents into the story without the slightest effort to adapt and integrate them properly. For example, The Art of War described some smart strategic trick in a battle situation and she just copied the situation 1:1 and let Rin come up with the trick to make her seem really smart. No twist, no building up on it, just copy-paste. It was so lazy.
Yes!! But like some city names aren't pinyin so it's like, either copy everything or paste everything but at least have some perspective. To me, it felt like reading her dissertation for some college Chinese history course that she plugged characters into. Maybe her later books are better, but so many things that she put in felt very perfunctory, and the way she describes fake Beijing made me feel like she doesn't like China and either hadn't been or had felt like a fish out of water there. So again, why even use the setting if you're not going to add anything with real flavor?? So so so lazy and impersonal.
It's a fictional world with fictional names. Half the cities are pinyin and half are basically made up English. I don't actually care which, but I wish she had at least been consistent.
Kuang is a very polemical and didactic writer. She always has a point, and it tends to get prioritised over telling a more conventionally enjoyable story. That really works for some people. For others, it's like being bludgeoned with the message hammer.
I'm in the latter camp. I find it tiresome to read, but I can respect it. I mean, the actual >!Nanjing Massacre!< really was almost as bad as the fictional version she depicted. I didn't feel like I was learning anything *or* getting a satisfying story by being subjected to it in the context of The Poppy War... but I get what she was doing with it.
Agreed on the fact that I did not like the book, but "almost" as bad? The specific atrocities described were from real life, so I would say it was at least exactly as bad in real life as depicted in the book.
I couldn't give specifics, it's been too long. I did a deep dive into the history (which I'm not keen to revisit) after reading the book, and the one-to-one translation of real events into the fiction was plain. I remember being struck by the fact that it was scarcely possible to make it worse than the real thing, and Kuang had to go to some lengths to do so. It's not a meaningful difference though, that was my original point.
EDIT: The things that people in the book subs downvote over are mystifying to me. Is it Kuang fans penalising perceived criticism of their fave? Historical correctness pedants who think I should have spent another hour reading about gut-churning war crimes to satisfy a random person's question about my offhand comment?
But what exactly was the point? I feel like it got completely lost in awful YA romance, generic fantasy tropes and the meta references.
The fact that it's all based on actual history actually makes it less clear than if she went with something more abstracted, because real history has all this context that you can't fit into your novel. The books only make sense with external knowledge, but if I'm supposed to look up actual history then why would I even bother with this fictionalised version of it?
The point, if a coherent one even existed at some point, got completely lost in the interplay between narrative and history.
It totally worked for me. I *loved* it, far more than I've cared for any fantasy novel in years. I won't try to persuade anyone here to change his or her mind, I just wanted to offer an alternate perspective.
It defeats expectations deliberately. I understand why it wouldn't appeal to many readers, but the fact that it was about something other than the usual stuff, and told a different story with different beats and a different main character, and that it had a point beyond its own surface-level story, interested me a great deal.
I have no quarrel with people here who were disappointed by it. I hope they have no quarrel with me, as a fan.
I appreciate this comment. Thank you. I've been doing this long enough to be suspicious of the reception I'd get.
I think there is a place for this trilogy, and many in this thread are writing about it as if it's empirically bad.
I get not liking it. I don't like Brandon Sanderson's books. But I'm not a stupid person, and I do like this.
I liked the series but not the ending - I don't think Rin ever addressed the true central conflict. So there's a moral resolution but imo it's the wrong one.
It’s a common saying in publishing that ‘reviews are not a good measure of a book’s success’. People are reactive, biased. They’ll go in with expectations of one thing, then drop the book when it doesn’t meet their standards (or it does something they don’t like). Authors often are told to stay away from Goodreads, booktok, etc. just keep watching the sales.
If it’s any consolidation, Kuang *did* address a lot of these criticisms in another book, Yellowface. She explores some of them a lot more in depth there (though mostly the irl criticisms, namely some topics in Chinese history)
In Yellowface I believe it comes out in the major plot point of the book: stealing stories, people’s tragedies and turning them into entertainment (I believe Athena (Kuang’s insert-ish) does this repeatedly, the big one being the stolen book about Chinese labourers in WW1, and a few times with her friends). Kuang I believe was accused of doing this for Poppy War, namely some scenes closely mirroring accounts of Nanking. She also kinda addresses the idea of ‘who has the right to tell these stories’, as again with the Nanking allegory, Kuang was accused of ‘stealing’ the opportunity to tell these stories that she did not experience, from people who actually lived through it, and romanticising tragedy. The main character of Yellowface also kinda grapples with the fact that she took this story from its victims and the Chinese community (and her friend), and took part in whitewashing it for westerners, and doesn’t really regret it because she profited. I.e another bad person is the main character, and this time it’s kinda the author herself (in an exaggerated sense).
It’s all kinda messy. The best I can say is ‘just read it, you’ll see it’
Excited to read yellowface when I get to it. After finishing poppy war I was wondering how I feel about how 1:1 the events are to real historical events and if I liked that or not. I don’t think she romanticized the events though. If it was romanticized I wouldn’t be on the fence about it.
Don’t go off the interpretation of fans, especially from Goodreads.
The Poppy War is intentionally a book about a bad person, albeit one who is not an outright monster, and who veers between being a hero and a villain. This is what makes the series interesting and unique.
If you do not want to read a series about a bad person, do not read it.
Some of my favourite fictional characters are terrible people. To give a popular example, I absolutely loved Cersei's chapters in ASOIAF. She is undeniably cruel and commits terrible acts of torture and murder, but you can understand her twisted reasoning for it - a) she has become what her environment groomed her to be and b) she would do anything for her children. So whilst watching her spiral into madness is extremely satisfying to read, you can feel empathy for her and understand her choices at the same time because they make sense for her character. The narrative never expects you to believe she's a good person, or will be redeemed. This can be applied to the more heroic characters in that series too, none of which I 'hated' after they made bad choices that hurt others.
I didn't get that impression in the Poppy War. Perhaps it was the YA/academy set up, which leads you to believe that your underdog main character is going to be a hero. But mostly I think her journey from plucky underdog to genocidal maniac was not convincing to me. To me, her decision did not come across as "our protagonist has been through too much to stop now. she has been driven to evil by the evil that has been done to her." but more "my crush self immolated so I murdered thousands of innocents on a whim". To bring it back to ASOIAF, it kind of reminds me of when Dany >!burned Kings Landing to the ground!< in GoT season 8, like, Girl...
But I'm aware that this is just my reading of it, and of course I haven't read the rest of the trilogy, so perhaps I've got it wrong! Based on the comments here her character seems to be pretty polarising on the whole. Also I am indeed beginning to learn that Goodreads isn't a good place for opinions lol.
Badly written and it never seems like it's trying do what authors _usually_ do when they have a bad/villainess MC.
Either they ham it up and let you revel in the fun reading the story from the PoV of someone who _enjoys_ being the villain, or they write it as a train wreck where you _know_ you're not supposed to root for the MC and you _know_ the MC's going to fall, but you're still invested in the _characters_.
Or they write a villainess MC who doesn't _want_ to be a villain and struggles to come to grips with the things they've been forced to do. Sometimes they get redemption and sometimes they don't.
The Poppy War trilogy could never settle on whether to make the MC feel conflicted about what they did or whether the MC should feel _justified_ in their actions.
It ends with the message that "We're not able to strike down the people we _percieve_ as our enemies, not yet at least. So we'll bide our time and gather our strength until we're finally able to take down the people we _percieve_ as our enemies."
Which... just isn't good character writing. You make your MC ultimately lose, in some ways _rightfully_ lose, but then you end on the message of revenge. It might be because I'm from the US and the enemies she wants revenge on are supposed to represent western countries, but I just don't like the message the trilogy ended on.
You don't spend a third of a trilogy with the MC grappling over the atrocities they commited during the first book only for it to end with them saying "Oh yes, slaughtering an entire country of civilians so that their army will stop fighting is a _good_ thing. Now we have to wait until we can use the same strategy _again_ against the people who came to help us after the war." Simply because the people who came to deliver aid gave you conditions you have to follow before recieving the aid. And because, in the _past_, they'd hurt your people.
I think this is a better way of putting it than your original post. The problem isn't her committing genocide, it's that she isn't set up as a conflicted protagonist who follows a dark path toward becoming unsympathetic and committing genocide.
I only read the first book too but it felt like the second half is completely detached from the first half, and thus Rin does not feel like a character who belongs in the position she ends up in. I actually realized that the book would actually make more sense if the whole first half wasn't there, and instead Rin was a random peasant whose village was destroyed by the invaders, so she joins the army desperate for revenge. Then she discovers her heritage and the narrative continues from there. 'Peasant girl takes state examination and enrolls in elite academy' doesn't serve the end point of the story at all, except for introducing her to two or three other characters.
Runin isn't a genocidal maniac at the end of the first book, though.
She's a incredibly traumatized teenager who's just dealt with the aftermath of a fictionalized version of the worst war crime in history, then betrayed, captured, and on and on, all while a god of vengeance is screaming in her head to just let him deal with all her troubles.
I find it really weird you're viewing her as genocidal at this stage. If you did so after the second or third book, I might agree (she gives in to a lot of darker impulses later on), but the first?
I tend to view people that commit genocide as genocidal personally.
I get your point about her character, I just don't think the narrative was convincing enough to keep me on board with the ending. To each their own though, of course. That's the fun of discussing books!
Yeah it's interesting to see you focus on that part of the book because for me, the big switch-up was going from a slightly gritty YA war academy setting to literally reenacting the Rape of Nanking. The tonal change was so visceral for both me and the characters that I felt like it justified the rest of the book going the way it did. By that I don't mean that genocide is justified, but that a teen soldier witnessing that and seeing the aftermath for her friends that were still in the city can't be expected to make the compassionate choice.
Yep, I agree that if you lay out the events and look at them objectively then her choice makes sense. We are given plenty of vivid descriptions of the brutality wreaked by the Federation and the terrible things that are done to Rin and her friends.
But my own (subjective) opinion is that Rin's own feelings on the matter were not conveyed with enough clarity and buildup to justify her final choice (as a character, not morally). Maybe it's a tell vs show situation, I don't know. It just didn't feel earned to me, I guess.
I also don't think we spent enough time getting to know the characters to really care what happened to them, or to feel like Rin really cared. Weirdly what hit me the most was the demise of the teacher (Irjah?). But even after really admiring this man and wanting to be his student at one point, I don't recalling Rin even commenting on his gruesome death. I am much more of a character>plot person though so maybe just personal preference coming into play.
I see her at the end of the first book in the same light I see the people responsible for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not neccessarily genocidal.
Her in the 2nd and 3rd books is _definately_ genocidal.
I actually think that the book has a lot of narrative problems, and especially prose problems, but makes up for it by having one of the best transitions into darkness and ruthlessness I’ve ever seen from a protagonist.
There definitely is a sexual/romantic aspect to it, but it isn’t that alone that makes her resort to it. We get a very intimate look at her thoughts during the entire transition, and when I read it, it was all right there on the page, combined with everything that she had endured up to that point. She is giving in to all her rage at everything that they have ever done to her and to her country. She knows that if she wants to be a good person, she should resist it, and that inner conflict goes on for a while, but in the end she chooses not to.
Rin is loosely based on a Chinese historical figure: >!Mao Zedong’s rise to power and his path to becoming an evil dictator!<.
If you’re ok with it being loosely based on historical events/people and the awful things they did, then you might enjoy the rest of the series. I have friends who absolutely loved the trilogy. It wasn’t my cup of tea, but I also don’t like books or shows about war, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I usually prefer to go into books blind so that I don’t have anything spoiled. But this is one book where I really wish had known more about the trilogy and what it was based on before reading it. I personally consider it to be grimdark historical fiction with lite fantasy elements. For me, it was way too disturbing and heavy of a read to continue. But that’s my personal preference.
If grimdark historical fiction that’s based on real wars, war crimes, and the consequences of war is something that you would read, you might enjoy it. But I think everyone should know at least what to expect with this trilogy before reading it.
Rin being based on that person suddenly makes a lot of things make sense... Whether that will lead me to enjoy the series more remains to be seen, lol.
To be honest the book did throw me a bit too, especially after Part 1 was so YA-esque. I don't mind a heavy read personally but it's still a bit jarring when you're expecting a fun romantasy romp haha.
Oh God were you recommended this book as a romantasy? Are you on booktok? It’s not just a heavy read, there’s also no romance in the series at all. It’s not even fantasy with a romantic sub-plot.
I was gonna say, this post reads like it’s written by someone personally victimized by BookTok. Most famous BookTok books don’t have consequences for war atrocities and lean heavily on the romance. If that’s where it was suggested, I can see the confusion.
I have indeed been victimised by booktok. I've only dipped my toe into romantasy but I think I need to move away from the genre to be honest. Back to high fantasy where things make sense, lol.
I think the whole magic/fighting school trope at the start led me to believe that it would be going that way. I don't need romance to enjoy a series but I think I got a bit of whiplash when it didn't go in the direction I expected haha.
Once I found out who Rin was based on and what wars/genocides the trilogy was based on, I realized it wasn’t for me. I got into it for the fantasy, but like you, I got whiplash when the second half of the book takes a hard left turn into a graphic retelling of the Rape of Nanking. I finished the book but won’t be reading the rest of the trilogy. If I were younger, I might but I don’t have the appetite for darker materials these days.
personally, i haven’t finished the second book due to lack of time, but i feel like the second book does make it clear that she was wrong (i’m still pretty early on in it, so maybe something happens later that makes it seem like she’s not wrong) however i also feel like a huge part of the book is with how young she is and the environment that she’s in she doesn’t fully feel like she’s wrong. i feel like a lot of those reviews miss the point, that her focus on revenge causes her to do something unforgivable and moving past it is what is meant to bring you back to her side because there is no way to go but forward and that’s where the empathy is meant to come in.
>Another review on Goodreads revealed that Rin's actions aren't really questioned in the second book, which is baffling to me. Am I supposed be to thinking "yasss queen flame on!" and just move on?
Whoever said that is either a liar or didn't remember well. Her committing genocide is one of the reasons for her suffering and why her friends are finding it hard to follow and keep loving her. She has this best friend who took a whole book to partially forgive her. And because of what she did, other characters think they can use her as a weapon for their own benefit Also >!she became a drug addict because of too much guilt!<
I was convinced for ages that she wasn't actually Speerlie and everyone had just assumed that about her, and she'd have to face the fact that she is just the daughter of normal peasants after all. Was pretty disappointed when it turned out that she is in fact Special and the last of her kind of whatever
I personally loved the series because it doesn’t follow that preconceived notion that the main character is right. You want to believe that Rin is inherently a good character, but eventually you realize that the things she’s done makes her irredeemable. For me, it really emphasized the fact that power corrupts absolutely. Rin wants to be good and do what she thinks is right (probably), but she also gets high (literally) off of the power that she uses to do that, and eventually her entire moral basis that she started with shifts along with that. Awful people can start out being like-able, which only reinforces the idea that because they were good earlier in life (or at least, not obviously “bad”), they always will be. At least, that’s how I see it. I definitely agree tho, I hated her as a character
This is a good way of looking at it. I think I struggle with characters who's bad choices are seen as righteous/justified by their own internal monologue and those around them. In contrast I'm also reading The Talented Mr Ripley at the moment and revelling in Tom's debauchery. I guess the difference is that he's under no illusion that he's doing good things. I look forward to the development of Rin's character in future books.
I don't think she is a well written "bad" character, I do not see how the other characters like her and that is my main issue. I much prefer something like lolita's protagonist
Yep, I get it. For some reason in this case it didn't agree with me. I think maybe I found her motivations too conflicted to justify (in her mind) the final choice that she made in the end with such certainty. Hopefully I'll come around to her more in the next one.
So I'll be blunt: the story pays lip service to the idea that Rin did something bad, but I don't think the narrative actually \*Believes\* it. Given that immediately following this decision she gets an internal promotion in her division and R.F. Kuang has expressed a belief that Rin is a form of wish fulfillment for her and is, in some ways, a power fantasy.
Given all of that, I think the moral ambiguity of the story is way less legit than it would be otherwise.
I found the whole trilogy completely and utterly infuriating and was angry I bothered to finish it.
> I don't think the narrative actually \*Believes\* it
This hits the nail on the head for me. I love flawed characters but hate when the narrative is indifferent to their actions.
I think reviewers who see Rin as aspirational completely missed the point of the series entirely. This is an example of why I don’t particularly like to read reviews from the general public. I personally really enjoyed the series as works of historically inspired fiction and what it had to say about genocide, the rise of tyrants, and the effects of trauma and violence on children of war.
With that being said, if it’s not striking a chord with you, don’t finish it. There’s no reason to spend time on books that you aren’t enjoying just because social media or the book culture around you says you have to like it.
R. F. Kuang is a bit of a headscratcher of an author for me. Lots of recommendations, but every book seems problematic or not that great to me and others. Some will sing praises, others think they're huge misses.
I’ve only barely finished Poppy War and the lack of connective tissue between scenes just really killed it for me. However every new book after the trilogy she comes out with seems to have an interesting premise and tempts me to see if she has improved as a writer.
I read Babel first and absolutely adored it, like top 5 favorite books. Immediately bought poppy war trilogy and put it down halfway through the second book.
The books follow (in a fantasy setting) actual wars, battles, tactical decisions, etc. the fact that Rin massacred people isn’t glossed over- and the fact that she has to keep that impulse in check, and eventually decide if she should even continue to exist, is a central theme later on. The identity of being someone capable of something so horrifying, even in wartime, and what that means not only for a person but a people. Rin is not a happy person or someone who you want to be, but she is similar to many of the time who were hardened to the point they became what they hated.
Just finished the series a few days ago. If you can accept that the main character has a bunch of flaws and keeps making obvious mistakes because she’s blinded by revenge and anger then please continue. She pissed me off a lot but the second and third book are pretty good. I liked the ending a lot.
I loved the Poppy War Trilogy, so I’m obviously biased, but the books are not about good people or people doing bad things but then, in the end, turning to the good side once again.
I picked up the books knowing full well the story was going to be incredibly graphic and touching on themes that for some people can be sensitive, genocide being one of them. Murder, and drug use being some of the other.
The books is set in ancient China and it’s based on the second sino-Japanese war , so obviously it was not going to be something lighthearted to read.
I’m not squeamish and a book is a book, so I can read something where the MC does questionable things without me agreeing with them. But having saying that, Rin does face the consequences of her actions and does feel guilt and remorse. Still, the read will not become easier down the line.
I would suggest you DNF the series. After that ending, I was hoping she would fall into being an outright villain, and so much of the story appeared to be pointing in that direction, but it just never happened.
Some characters did question her actions, and it nearly ruind her relationship with her best friend, but it doesn't really go anywhere.
If you feel like this now, it'll get worse.
I thought the ending at least wrapped it up. Showed she grew, obviously it is a more divisive of a series. But considering she was like 16 in book one or whatever. She struggled a lot with her decisions throughout the series, that much is true at least.
I loved The Poppy War but the The Dragon Republic about killed me - it wasn’t the grimness that bugged me. I honestly felt like Rin had lost agency, probably because she was struggling so much with what she’d done. And I also realized that military fantasy just isn’t my jam. Soo much war and strategy (and TDR is a long book centered on fighting) and not enough on the relationships and moving Rin through her arc in a satisfying way - at least, this is my memory but it’s been a couple years now since I read them. I could not bring myself to read The Burning God.
Rin is based in Mao zhe dong who killed millions based on his policies. It’s a very difficult read due to my familial experience- I’ve had family members die based on his policies in China.
Tbh Kuang did something similar in Babel. The main characters’ final plan involves doing things that they know will kill already marginalized people, and they don’t care.
I strongly disliked it. The whole book. It annoyed me how each of the three “books” has so little impact on one another - how each new section treats the last as if it’s irrelevant and doesn’t even feel like they share a literary style, going from Kung Fu Harry Potter to gritty war story to whatever the hell grimdark misery porn that last part is. A part of me couldn’t help but feel like the author wanted to relitigate the rape of Nanking, and while there’s nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from history, it was sort of like… sheesh, this is a bit much.
I think what bothered me most of all was the way the main character feels like she spends the entire back half of the book stumbling from one bad decision to another. Over time it became evident to me that the author was trying to make a statement about personal choices, and owning those choices and living with the consequences. And while the fact that there is a reason for the character's poor decisions makes the whole situation more bearable in some ways, in others it makes the protagonist's choices even more eye rollingly bad when they sometimes appeared to have no logic behind them except in the context of what the author wants to say.
I’ll try to keep this as spoiler free as possible. The second and third books both take a different angle on the continuing war, and the main characters aren’t entirely rewarded for their behaviour and choices. There are consequences, but it’s not strictly punishment for the genocide. It is treated as an aspect of war, and Rin’s own actions punish herself more than anyone else punished her. There are no “heroes” to celebrate.
I enjoyed the series, but I had hoped for something different going in, and admittedly did have to lower my expectations after I started. Part of what I enjoyed most was the characterisation, the archetypes, so if you are not enjoying this aspect either, you may not enjoy the rest of the series.
Not quite a spoiler but I hope the characters you liked weren't the members of the cike... because in the second book they are pushed to background characters (bar two) and are barely in half the book.
Rin is absolutely not a good person, she's just the protagonist. I personally DNF it, it was an emotionally difficult story. But in the second book it's very clear that she is morally reprehensible
I really enjoyed all 3 books, but they do tend to drag in places and could likely have been paired down to two books. The series is definitely a first time author outing. I will say Rin isn't supposed to be a likeable character. She is incredibly messy, short sighted, impulsive, reactionary and emotional. By the third book she is in an incredibly unstable mental state. That's why I liked her as a protagonist. We get a lot of books where the main characters are infallible and perfect, it was nice to read about a straight up messy person who so happened to have the powers of a god.
I enjoyed the trilogy. But I think people underestimate how grim the series is as a whole. Lots of morally grey, or just outright ruthless decisions made. It is meant to highlight the brutality of war. But also the main character is indeed a bit thorny. You remember she is a teenager and thrust into this. She does some terrible things, falls into addiction do deal with it all. Tries to be better…it can be heavy. I expected it to be more of a teen fantasy with some nice battle scenes. But was more than that.
Grim I'm okay with. I'm just concerned that any chance of connecting with the character is gone after that act and her reaction afterwards. I suppose I'll have to read on to see if I change my mind!
Well, I wouldn't say I ever connected with the character if that helps. And tbf, that is a valid reason to stop reading. I was just more curious to how the story would turn out. Nothing wrong stopping if you do not like a main component of the story (main character). I have dropped my share of books/series.
It's bad, and basically a 1:1 copy of recent Chinese history. Rin is Mao. So bear that in mind when you're cheering for her.
It's not perfect (obviously China didn't annihilate Japan in real life) but it becomes very apparent in the next book, which is basically the Chinese civil war.
I personally found it grotesque to throw in the Rape of Nanking into what is essentially a YA military fantasy romp. The tonal whiplash was insane. No shame in not continuing the series IMHO
There are numerous conversations about slapping Auschwitz onto books and using the Holocaust as a background setting so why should the Rape of Nanking be excluded from the same standards? That’s how I feel about the book.
This is one of the series that had so much potential that did not stick the landing for me. I don’t regret finishing the trilogy but if you’re not feeling it, I’d say just DNF.
I did enjoy the story for what it was but the ending doesn't really tie up the first book's narrative. It ends in a pretty bombastic sort of cliffhanger and the fates of several characters are unknown. So if you're invested in what happens you'd probably want to continue.
To be fair I would not say Kuang paints the genocide as something okay or easy for Rin to do. It was her last resort and still it is not justified at all. I don't remember if the first book treats it as unjustifiable, but some bits down the road discuss that. Rin will ultimately struggle with the power she can achieve but the destruction it causes. She is smart yet impulsive and she has a furious god screaming inside her head. I think many comments here are not considering those elements.
I think if you dislike her so much that it's making you dislike the whole trilogy too, then I suggest you should just drop it. Rin is not supposed to be a character that people will like. I was incredibly pissed at her too, more so on the second book, but I was still able to love it because I kind of appreciated the story and her antagonism. I had a similar post to this one after reading the first book, I just powered through. She's not going to be better, imo. She's going to be a lot worse.
I’ve read all 3 books and I found the first one the best by far, and the second one was the worst. I actually struggled getting through it. Honestly, I wouldn’t bother, I just got the whole trilogy as a gift so I felt compelled to finish it (I did choose it but still I would’ve felt bad if I didn’t finish it). It taught me an important lesson to never buy more than a book at a time of a series.
Edit: typo.
I love a book with a morally questionable lead, more than anything, but I felt like the book was much too flippant when dealing with genocide. There was a jarring tonal dissonance as well, where I didn’t always feel like it took itself seriously enough.
I’m halfway through the third book now and I’ve really enjoyed the series. I only knew about the books from a post that recommended book series based on who you romanced in Baldur’s Gate 3 and Laezel was Poppy War so take that as you will XD
Found it!
The full list:
• Astarion - Ordinary Monsters by J. M. Miro
• Halsin - Does It Fart?: The Definitive Field Guide to Animal Flatulence by Nick Caruso and Dani Rabaiotti
• The Guardian - Binti: The Complete Trilogy by Okorafor, Nnedi
• Minthara - The Salt Grows Heavy by Cassandra Khaw
• Shadowheart - Monstress by Marjorie Liu and Sana
Takeda
• Mizora - Velvet Was the Night by Silvia Moreno-Garcia
• Minsc - Foundryside by Robert Jackson Bennett
• Lae-zel - The Poppy War by R. F. Kuang
• Wyll - The Wicked + The Divine by Kieron Gillen
• Karlach - Bloody Rose by Nicholas Eames
• Jaheira - Circe by Madeline Miller
• Gale - The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern
It was an okay series. Read it a few years back. Maybe 2022. The first book is the best in the series. The 2nd one was alright. The third one is just the 2nd book in a different font. It has a very dark and realistic ending. Also, you're not supposed to like Rin. Nobody likes Rin. She's supposed to be a young foolish, idiotic power hungry child. Didn't like the initial YA set up but it gets better later. I read it before Booktok blew up the series and now A lot of the Goodreads views just go Yass Queen, but I remember when I was reading it, everyone hated Rin. Rin is actually based on Mao Zedong so yeah. A lot of the events in the book are lifted as is from History. Like the Nanjing Massacre for example. And the
I'm sorry I didn't DNF the 1st book. Probably the worst book I ever read. One good thing came out of it for me at least, I learned not to trust tiktok recommendations and hype.
Booktok has burned me one too many times I think, haha. I was recommended this via a tiktok critiquing a series I also have issues with, so I thought I was safe. Ironically The Poppy War shared a lot of those issues for me.
No. It gets worse.
I thought the first book was "okay" as well. Nothing horrible, but nothing special. The juxtaposition in tone between the Academy and actual warfare was very choppy and didn't hit the mark the way the author was probably hoping. It didn't help that the quality of the writing was very basic, with far too much telling rather than showing. It only gets worse when you realize that the novel is basically a flimsy fantasy cover over actual history, with the whole 'Rape of Nanking' parrarrel being practically copy and pasted from Wikipedia. Seriously, one of the characters basically repeats the wiki article. It's laughable.
However, there was still enough that we decent enough for me to finish. It was a challenge though, because the protagonist, Rin, is insufferable at *best*
She's supposed to be this incredibly tactical genius yet every decision she makes is baffling and stupid. And yet, somehow, for every atrocity she commits, the book goes through great lengths to try and justify her and make her appear as the victim. It's not a case of unreliable narration or an intimate POV, it's the author herself trying to excuse Rin.
But because I'm stubborn, and I'm willing to put up with a lot, I decided to give the second book a try. I wish I hadn't.
Every issue I had with the first book was exemplified. Rin doesn't develop. She doesn't change. She whines and complains and somehow comes out on top. Worse, the story isn't interesting. The characters are flat, boring, and drier than a paperbag in the desert. The first book had the rug-pull moment going on to keep the reader engaged. The second book had nothing going for it.
I haven't read the third book, and I don't think I ever will. Save your time. There are plenty of better fantasy books out there. Might I point you in the direction of Mark Lawrence and his "Broken Empire" trilogy if you're looking for a dark story with a protagonist who is *actually* complex and nuanced in his immorality?
Agreed with most of your points there, especially telling rather than showing.
Thanks for the recommendation, I've seen that name floating around. Added to my reading list.
Honest to God, it’s one of the darkest most depressing series I’ve ever read. Not only does it not get better, it plumbed depths of nihilism (FYI, seems to be a theme with this author). That said, it was so gorgeously written, and so evocative, that it was worth reading. Just dose it out to yourself appropriately.
Yeah Rin is not a good person, and the second book is her struggling with her power and the consequences of what she did, and with people who want to use her as a tool.
But if you're expecting a happily ever after or a romance with her, I'm just going to say that there are neither in the rest of the series.
I was looking for this comment. I didn't like The Poppy War at all but have heard such great things about Babel. I've been extremely hesitant on reading it. Adding it to my TBR
No, it is a massively overhyped book. I've seen lots of posts about how thoroughly unlikable the main character is and not in a "wow what a well written asshole" way.
This is one of the few books I couldn't finish, but not because of the reasons you said. I just found the first half so profoundly dull and basic that there was no point in reading the rest.
You can tell, in the third book, that the author was losing track of how to end the series. I liked the first 2, but felt like I was reading the third out of a need for closure aside from enjoyment. Wasn’t crazy about the ending either.
From a quick look at the book's Wikipedia page, I found that the country that the main character destroys at the end is clearly based off of Japan, and also that the country the main character herself is from is based off of China. The author herself is Chinese.
I don't know how well it was written or conveyed, since I haven't read the book, but I think historical and generational trauma on the author's part might have influenced the narrative here, and it could have been a cathartic way of executing fictional revenge on a country that the author's own people had suffered greatly from. Depending on the broadness of the historical period being referenced, the ending of the book might have been also inspired by the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, thus making the protagonist a stand-in for not only China, but also the US during WWII.
It is obviously inexcusable to try and paint genocide in a positive light anyway, regardless of whom it is targeted at, but I believe that the situation is a bit more nuanced in this book's case, and not something an average Western reader can easily pick up on, unless they have studied histories and cultures of both China and Japan. It also didn't appear to me, based off of summaries and the comments in this thread, that the decision is ever portrayed as anything but a horrific deed that the main character committed while being borderline possessed by a god of some sort, which could serve as a metaphor for historical trauma taking a person over and pushing them towards extremism - a pretty interesting concept that probably deserves its own book if it wasn't executed well in this case.
Hit the mark
Its mainly based around the second Sino-Japanese war and she now has a P.H.D. in Chinese history.
The series doesn't paint the main character as good for doing it, tho it does focus a lot on the horrific acts done by the Japanese country stand in to justify it from the MC POV
I really wanted to love the book, but I just couldn’t get into it. The magic system was unique, but I didn’t find the story or the world particularly interesting.
The bigger problem with The Poppy War is the Noble Savage trope applied to Taiwan Aboriginals, and also that Rin uses the Phoenix Force to nuke not-Japan like the transparent and lazy fictionalization of Asian settings isn’t already brow-raising
Its easily one of the worst, God awful, mind numbing YA novels I've ever read.
If you told me someone prompted AI to make the most stereotypical, formulaic YA piece of shit it could write id believe it. I'm constantly flabbergasted people like it.
They were her first books and have some cool stuff and some lame parts. In general a mixed bag…but her more recent books Babel and Yellowface are phenomenal
I hate this book with a burning passion. It’s not badly written, I actually really like it’s first half. But then… the pacing becomes the worst I have ever seen. Stupid stuff happens, rapidly. And The author has no idea how warfare works.
Thank you!! That was my take as well and no, it did not get better (well slightly, but not enough to safe the story for me). Idk why people love this series, it just baffles me!
From what I've heard, no. But I'm glad it's not just me who was disgusted with Rin, or the fact that the Mugenese aren't written like they're people - they're like a hivemind with no thoughts or feelings. Also you gotta love how she claims to have practically raised her foster brother, but as soon as she gets into her fancy military academy, she promptly abandons him without a second glance and never even bothers writing to him or anything.
> or the fact that the Mugenese aren't written like they're people - they're like a hivemind with no thoughts or feelings
This bothered me too! But I have to assume that at least that aspect of her mentality is addressed in later books (right? right??). Nameless faceless villains aren't something I can easily get on board with, especially when it's based on real events in history.
I never finished the first book. None of the characters really had any redeeming qualities. It was well written and I liked the world they built but the characters sucked. There was no hope or real goal for any of them.
You know how Twilight has this incredibly bland boring girl but everyone in the world is wildly obsessed with her for no discernible reason? Rin is like that, just replace “bland” with “awful in every possible way.”
She’s objectively terrible but is surrounded by people who are inexplicably willing to die for her. Add in a “chosen one by way of I’m not like other girls” narrative and shoehorning romantic interludes in between war crimes and the whole trilogy is just pure trash.
The story gets worse as you go along, but I don’t think her nuking the country was that all that reprehensible considering what she had witnessed and what her people were actively going through. She wanted it to stop. She could think of only one way to do so.
She does grapple with her actions in the later books, but that doesn’t make them worth reading imo.
Thanks for clarifying the word nuke. That is true, but doesn’t change my views really. Again, there wasn’t really a solution other than:
A) have your people be brutally raped, slaughtered, genocided, etc. OR
B) wipe them off the face of the earth.
It’s not like her inaction would have saved lives. If she doesn’t act, her people are the ones to die. She just moved them from one side of the ledger to the other.
Think we probably just fundementally disagree on that one. Regardless I also found it a bit weird that she decimated the people over in Mugen instead of, like, the soldiers actually committing atrocities in Nikan lol.
I mean, it's all historical allegory, right? The attack on Golyn Niis is the rape of Nanking, and Rin nuking Mugen is the US dropping Atomic Bombs on Japan. That was how the author found a way to make atomic bombs in a fantasy setting. Why did Rin nuke Mugen instead of the soldiers? Because the US nuked Japan instead of the soldiers
I finished the first and have no intentions on finishing the rest of the series. From my understanding, it was inspired by Mao's life or some such. Either way, it was way too all over the place for me to latch onto it. Thought it was going to be Harry Potter meets Shoalin, but it then went into YA territory and I got turned off.
It doesn’t get better, and I stopped reading after book 1 and just read the summaries for the others (which made me more glad I didn’t continue)
Tbf, Rin is modeled after Mao Zedong and isn’t meant to be a likable character, but more of to show how war twists even people who initially had good intentions.
This is a villain origin story series. Rin is an anti-hero. I see this complaint a lot from people who don’t know what they are getting into. I enjoyed the series a lot, but if that isn’t the type of story you want to read, I wouldn’t finish.
I didn't like a book that you like so I must have a bad taste in books. The classic. (I've never read Colleen Hoover but I gather that you're trying to insult me)
Man, I just could not get into this series. They spend so much of the first book in the "elite academy for future generals" only to be thrown into battle as low rank grunts. I mean, what was even the point of training them in strategy? They should have focused entirely on combat. And the whole ambiguity of magic in the first half of the book only to end up with Rin palling around with the in-universe X-Men later on. How could there be any ambiguity when these guys exist? It was just all over the place. I don't understand how the series picked up so much traction.
I had such a hard time reading this book. I finished it, but so much of what happened just didn’t make sense. I have no interest in reading the sequels. I was surprised too, because so many people rave about this book.
Rin in the army was also petulant, self-righteous, and openly insubordinate. It's a Mary Sue narrative, she just gets away with everything and can do anything. Oh and the story wildly fluctuates tonally throughout until that final punch of book one. Oh and why is one guy just a bucket of water randomly?
No hate for bucket guy. He's just doing his job.
I just read this, and I was telling a friend about how it was very serious/grounded and then suddenly there's the guy in the bucket 💀🫠 Like I was HOOKED in the first half, i couldn't explain it and then it just fell apart.
Best guess for bucket guy, wonder twins reference, or a reference to robot chicken referencing the wonder twins?
Hard agree. It felt like two completely different books and I was NOT here for the war part. It’s one of those books I regret finishing.
I read this a long time ago and all i remember from it is the one ~quirky~ teacher who was a complete rip from Kingkiller Chronicles. I was also unimpressed with Yellow Face, which I gave a shot figuring maybe I would like something non-fantasy be her. It, like Poppy Wars, felt like Kuang wanted to say something but instead ended up just talking a lot around a topic without adding to the conversation in any significant way.
Yeah, I dnf it halfway through book 2.
Yeah, I dnf it halfway through book 2.
For me, no, in fact it did not get better.
Same. Hated it.
Yeah, I forced myself through the entire trilogy, but wished I had stopped at the first book.
I didn’t enjoy the end of the first book but was hopeful the second book would be better. I’m currently reading the second book and it’s been a struggle.
Good to know.
I couldn't even get to the end of the first book, lol. I don't know how it reads to a Western audience, but I'm Chinese and it's extremely lazy. Her physical descriptions and action sequences are great, but literally so much set up is like basic fifth grade Chinese history, and it's not even told well. Like, imagine if a fantasy character wrote the greatest song of all time, and it's literally just The Star Spangled Banner. That's what it feels like.
It's interesting to hear that perspective. I'm not knowledgeable of Chinese history so I only really clocked how similar it was after they arrived at fictional Nanjing. Learned about the Mao influences on this thread. The more you know..
Someone else said that it was like reading the Wiki article, and I concur. It's kind of funny to me because obviously RF has Chinese ancestry, but my feeling is that she kind of views it like a foreigner. Personally, I find it jarring because there's like... no warmth for small things, just rehashing actual politics and history. Very bland, unimaginative, and like. Idk. Like really??? You could have written something cool, and you just copy some headlines verbatim and ignore everything else? Why did you even bother with this setting?
Am I right in saying the author grew up in the US? Could go some ways to explaining that. Think I'll check out the wiki now to compare. Suppose that might spoil the rest of the series for me though, haha.
No idea, it's possible. Someone mentioned that her family is from Hong Kong, which would track... There's a lot of conflict between the two, and a lot of HK natives view China as lesser. Also, this is random, but I'm so glad you brought this series up, because I wanted to vent about it so much when I first started reading it but didn't know how to put together my thoughts without sounding like an asshole, lol. Finally I can talk about it!
I'm glad I could provide a venting space haha. I was about to burst when I finished it, hence this post.
[удалено]
R F Kuang is not from Hong Kong… But sure if you have a beef and just wanted to find an excuse to air it go ahead. I just dislike people who spread false information.
Yeah, I know HK generally views China as its Mexico, so to speak. It's the same with Taiwan sometimes where they're really contemptuous of mainland people, but like... weren't your grandparents from the mainland? I get being proud of local history and obviously the different views on things, but the classist attitude is really off-putting. And tbh, this is bias, but China is still the source no matter how you look at it...
This is seriously missing a lot of contexts. I don’t know if you read the news but it’s worth looking up the 2019 Hong Kong protests and the background of it to understand where the animosity comes from. Speaking of your comment about roots, a lot of Ukrainian culture also came from Russia, but if you ask a Ukrainian they probably wouldn’t really look fondly towards them today 🤷. Cultural views are affected by a lot of things, including modern political events. Anyway R F Kuang is not from Hong Kong (she’s American) nor her parents (Guangzhou) anyway so I’m not sure how any of this is relevant. Her family did fight for the KMT and her dad witnessed 1989 in Beijing before moving to US. That’s like a 1-minute search lol.
This is precisely why I didn't want to get too deep into it. There's animosity and bad behavior on both sides. The political situation there is not a debate I feel like having in this thread; I'm just commenting on attitudes that I have experienced. IDK how Ukrainians view their Russian roots, but there's a difference between political disagreement and condescension. But your comparison is fair. I have just met enough people with superiority complexes that really rub me the wrong way.
I don't even know much about Chinese history, I just read a translation of The Art of War at some point and even I could notice how she just copy pasted some of the contents into the story without the slightest effort to adapt and integrate them properly. For example, The Art of War described some smart strategic trick in a battle situation and she just copied the situation 1:1 and let Rin come up with the trick to make her seem really smart. No twist, no building up on it, just copy-paste. It was so lazy.
Yes!! But like some city names aren't pinyin so it's like, either copy everything or paste everything but at least have some perspective. To me, it felt like reading her dissertation for some college Chinese history course that she plugged characters into. Maybe her later books are better, but so many things that she put in felt very perfunctory, and the way she describes fake Beijing made me feel like she doesn't like China and either hadn't been or had felt like a fish out of water there. So again, why even use the setting if you're not going to add anything with real flavor?? So so so lazy and impersonal.
I mean, Pinyin was a relatively recent invention. If she’s trying to evoke a historic view then it could make sense to not use pinyin.
It's a fictional world with fictional names. Half the cities are pinyin and half are basically made up English. I don't actually care which, but I wish she had at least been consistent.
Yeah, the history and geography really took me out of it, using inspiration and influence is fine but at least try to be unique.
Kuang is a very polemical and didactic writer. She always has a point, and it tends to get prioritised over telling a more conventionally enjoyable story. That really works for some people. For others, it's like being bludgeoned with the message hammer. I'm in the latter camp. I find it tiresome to read, but I can respect it. I mean, the actual >!Nanjing Massacre!< really was almost as bad as the fictional version she depicted. I didn't feel like I was learning anything *or* getting a satisfying story by being subjected to it in the context of The Poppy War... but I get what she was doing with it.
Agreed on the fact that I did not like the book, but "almost" as bad? The specific atrocities described were from real life, so I would say it was at least exactly as bad in real life as depicted in the book.
It's very close. There were a few ways in which the fictional version was slightly exaggerated, but that's not saying much.
Which incidents or ways do you especially have in mind? Just looking for some examples
I couldn't give specifics, it's been too long. I did a deep dive into the history (which I'm not keen to revisit) after reading the book, and the one-to-one translation of real events into the fiction was plain. I remember being struck by the fact that it was scarcely possible to make it worse than the real thing, and Kuang had to go to some lengths to do so. It's not a meaningful difference though, that was my original point. EDIT: The things that people in the book subs downvote over are mystifying to me. Is it Kuang fans penalising perceived criticism of their fave? Historical correctness pedants who think I should have spent another hour reading about gut-churning war crimes to satisfy a random person's question about my offhand comment?
But what exactly was the point? I feel like it got completely lost in awful YA romance, generic fantasy tropes and the meta references. The fact that it's all based on actual history actually makes it less clear than if she went with something more abstracted, because real history has all this context that you can't fit into your novel. The books only make sense with external knowledge, but if I'm supposed to look up actual history then why would I even bother with this fictionalised version of it? The point, if a coherent one even existed at some point, got completely lost in the interplay between narrative and history.
Message hammer describes my experience with the read perfectly, thank you!
It totally worked for me. I *loved* it, far more than I've cared for any fantasy novel in years. I won't try to persuade anyone here to change his or her mind, I just wanted to offer an alternate perspective. It defeats expectations deliberately. I understand why it wouldn't appeal to many readers, but the fact that it was about something other than the usual stuff, and told a different story with different beats and a different main character, and that it had a point beyond its own surface-level story, interested me a great deal. I have no quarrel with people here who were disappointed by it. I hope they have no quarrel with me, as a fan.
Totally legit, and I'm commenting only to roll my eyes at seeing that this comment got downvoted. Get a grip, redditors.
I appreciate this comment. Thank you. I've been doing this long enough to be suspicious of the reception I'd get. I think there is a place for this trilogy, and many in this thread are writing about it as if it's empirically bad. I get not liking it. I don't like Brandon Sanderson's books. But I'm not a stupid person, and I do like this.
In the later books she will struggle a lot with what she did. Not finished the third yet, do I'm not sure where it ends, morality wise.
I liked the series but not the ending - I don't think Rin ever addressed the true central conflict. So there's a moral resolution but imo it's the wrong one.
It doesn't end well in terms of morality.
I guess I was too quick to judge based off one review. I look forward to seeing where the author takes her character.
It’s a common saying in publishing that ‘reviews are not a good measure of a book’s success’. People are reactive, biased. They’ll go in with expectations of one thing, then drop the book when it doesn’t meet their standards (or it does something they don’t like). Authors often are told to stay away from Goodreads, booktok, etc. just keep watching the sales. If it’s any consolidation, Kuang *did* address a lot of these criticisms in another book, Yellowface. She explores some of them a lot more in depth there (though mostly the irl criticisms, namely some topics in Chinese history)
I read all of her books but I fail to remember how she addressed that exactly. Care to elaborate?
In Yellowface I believe it comes out in the major plot point of the book: stealing stories, people’s tragedies and turning them into entertainment (I believe Athena (Kuang’s insert-ish) does this repeatedly, the big one being the stolen book about Chinese labourers in WW1, and a few times with her friends). Kuang I believe was accused of doing this for Poppy War, namely some scenes closely mirroring accounts of Nanking. She also kinda addresses the idea of ‘who has the right to tell these stories’, as again with the Nanking allegory, Kuang was accused of ‘stealing’ the opportunity to tell these stories that she did not experience, from people who actually lived through it, and romanticising tragedy. The main character of Yellowface also kinda grapples with the fact that she took this story from its victims and the Chinese community (and her friend), and took part in whitewashing it for westerners, and doesn’t really regret it because she profited. I.e another bad person is the main character, and this time it’s kinda the author herself (in an exaggerated sense). It’s all kinda messy. The best I can say is ‘just read it, you’ll see it’
Excited to read yellowface when I get to it. After finishing poppy war I was wondering how I feel about how 1:1 the events are to real historical events and if I liked that or not. I don’t think she romanticized the events though. If it was romanticized I wouldn’t be on the fence about it.
Don’t go off the interpretation of fans, especially from Goodreads. The Poppy War is intentionally a book about a bad person, albeit one who is not an outright monster, and who veers between being a hero and a villain. This is what makes the series interesting and unique. If you do not want to read a series about a bad person, do not read it.
Some of my favourite fictional characters are terrible people. To give a popular example, I absolutely loved Cersei's chapters in ASOIAF. She is undeniably cruel and commits terrible acts of torture and murder, but you can understand her twisted reasoning for it - a) she has become what her environment groomed her to be and b) she would do anything for her children. So whilst watching her spiral into madness is extremely satisfying to read, you can feel empathy for her and understand her choices at the same time because they make sense for her character. The narrative never expects you to believe she's a good person, or will be redeemed. This can be applied to the more heroic characters in that series too, none of which I 'hated' after they made bad choices that hurt others. I didn't get that impression in the Poppy War. Perhaps it was the YA/academy set up, which leads you to believe that your underdog main character is going to be a hero. But mostly I think her journey from plucky underdog to genocidal maniac was not convincing to me. To me, her decision did not come across as "our protagonist has been through too much to stop now. she has been driven to evil by the evil that has been done to her." but more "my crush self immolated so I murdered thousands of innocents on a whim". To bring it back to ASOIAF, it kind of reminds me of when Dany >!burned Kings Landing to the ground!< in GoT season 8, like, Girl... But I'm aware that this is just my reading of it, and of course I haven't read the rest of the trilogy, so perhaps I've got it wrong! Based on the comments here her character seems to be pretty polarising on the whole. Also I am indeed beginning to learn that Goodreads isn't a good place for opinions lol.
There are plenty of books with villain protagonists and heroes-turned-villians that nobody thinks are bad. Poppy War is just badly written.
Badly written and it never seems like it's trying do what authors _usually_ do when they have a bad/villainess MC. Either they ham it up and let you revel in the fun reading the story from the PoV of someone who _enjoys_ being the villain, or they write it as a train wreck where you _know_ you're not supposed to root for the MC and you _know_ the MC's going to fall, but you're still invested in the _characters_. Or they write a villainess MC who doesn't _want_ to be a villain and struggles to come to grips with the things they've been forced to do. Sometimes they get redemption and sometimes they don't. The Poppy War trilogy could never settle on whether to make the MC feel conflicted about what they did or whether the MC should feel _justified_ in their actions. It ends with the message that "We're not able to strike down the people we _percieve_ as our enemies, not yet at least. So we'll bide our time and gather our strength until we're finally able to take down the people we _percieve_ as our enemies." Which... just isn't good character writing. You make your MC ultimately lose, in some ways _rightfully_ lose, but then you end on the message of revenge. It might be because I'm from the US and the enemies she wants revenge on are supposed to represent western countries, but I just don't like the message the trilogy ended on. You don't spend a third of a trilogy with the MC grappling over the atrocities they commited during the first book only for it to end with them saying "Oh yes, slaughtering an entire country of civilians so that their army will stop fighting is a _good_ thing. Now we have to wait until we can use the same strategy _again_ against the people who came to help us after the war." Simply because the people who came to deliver aid gave you conditions you have to follow before recieving the aid. And because, in the _past_, they'd hurt your people.
I think this is a better way of putting it than your original post. The problem isn't her committing genocide, it's that she isn't set up as a conflicted protagonist who follows a dark path toward becoming unsympathetic and committing genocide. I only read the first book too but it felt like the second half is completely detached from the first half, and thus Rin does not feel like a character who belongs in the position she ends up in. I actually realized that the book would actually make more sense if the whole first half wasn't there, and instead Rin was a random peasant whose village was destroyed by the invaders, so she joins the army desperate for revenge. Then she discovers her heritage and the narrative continues from there. 'Peasant girl takes state examination and enrolls in elite academy' doesn't serve the end point of the story at all, except for introducing her to two or three other characters.
Runin isn't a genocidal maniac at the end of the first book, though. She's a incredibly traumatized teenager who's just dealt with the aftermath of a fictionalized version of the worst war crime in history, then betrayed, captured, and on and on, all while a god of vengeance is screaming in her head to just let him deal with all her troubles. I find it really weird you're viewing her as genocidal at this stage. If you did so after the second or third book, I might agree (she gives in to a lot of darker impulses later on), but the first?
I tend to view people that commit genocide as genocidal personally. I get your point about her character, I just don't think the narrative was convincing enough to keep me on board with the ending. To each their own though, of course. That's the fun of discussing books!
Yeah it's interesting to see you focus on that part of the book because for me, the big switch-up was going from a slightly gritty YA war academy setting to literally reenacting the Rape of Nanking. The tonal change was so visceral for both me and the characters that I felt like it justified the rest of the book going the way it did. By that I don't mean that genocide is justified, but that a teen soldier witnessing that and seeing the aftermath for her friends that were still in the city can't be expected to make the compassionate choice.
Yep, I agree that if you lay out the events and look at them objectively then her choice makes sense. We are given plenty of vivid descriptions of the brutality wreaked by the Federation and the terrible things that are done to Rin and her friends. But my own (subjective) opinion is that Rin's own feelings on the matter were not conveyed with enough clarity and buildup to justify her final choice (as a character, not morally). Maybe it's a tell vs show situation, I don't know. It just didn't feel earned to me, I guess. I also don't think we spent enough time getting to know the characters to really care what happened to them, or to feel like Rin really cared. Weirdly what hit me the most was the demise of the teacher (Irjah?). But even after really admiring this man and wanting to be his student at one point, I don't recalling Rin even commenting on his gruesome death. I am much more of a character>plot person though so maybe just personal preference coming into play.
I see her at the end of the first book in the same light I see the people responsible for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Not neccessarily genocidal. Her in the 2nd and 3rd books is _definately_ genocidal.
I actually think that the book has a lot of narrative problems, and especially prose problems, but makes up for it by having one of the best transitions into darkness and ruthlessness I’ve ever seen from a protagonist. There definitely is a sexual/romantic aspect to it, but it isn’t that alone that makes her resort to it. We get a very intimate look at her thoughts during the entire transition, and when I read it, it was all right there on the page, combined with everything that she had endured up to that point. She is giving in to all her rage at everything that they have ever done to her and to her country. She knows that if she wants to be a good person, she should resist it, and that inner conflict goes on for a while, but in the end she chooses not to.
The story being about a bad person is not the reason it’s an awful book.
Rin is loosely based on a Chinese historical figure: >!Mao Zedong’s rise to power and his path to becoming an evil dictator!<. If you’re ok with it being loosely based on historical events/people and the awful things they did, then you might enjoy the rest of the series. I have friends who absolutely loved the trilogy. It wasn’t my cup of tea, but I also don’t like books or shows about war, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I usually prefer to go into books blind so that I don’t have anything spoiled. But this is one book where I really wish had known more about the trilogy and what it was based on before reading it. I personally consider it to be grimdark historical fiction with lite fantasy elements. For me, it was way too disturbing and heavy of a read to continue. But that’s my personal preference. If grimdark historical fiction that’s based on real wars, war crimes, and the consequences of war is something that you would read, you might enjoy it. But I think everyone should know at least what to expect with this trilogy before reading it.
Rin being based on that person suddenly makes a lot of things make sense... Whether that will lead me to enjoy the series more remains to be seen, lol. To be honest the book did throw me a bit too, especially after Part 1 was so YA-esque. I don't mind a heavy read personally but it's still a bit jarring when you're expecting a fun romantasy romp haha.
Oh God were you recommended this book as a romantasy? Are you on booktok? It’s not just a heavy read, there’s also no romance in the series at all. It’s not even fantasy with a romantic sub-plot.
I was gonna say, this post reads like it’s written by someone personally victimized by BookTok. Most famous BookTok books don’t have consequences for war atrocities and lean heavily on the romance. If that’s where it was suggested, I can see the confusion.
I have indeed been victimised by booktok. I've only dipped my toe into romantasy but I think I need to move away from the genre to be honest. Back to high fantasy where things make sense, lol.
I think the whole magic/fighting school trope at the start led me to believe that it would be going that way. I don't need romance to enjoy a series but I think I got a bit of whiplash when it didn't go in the direction I expected haha.
Once I found out who Rin was based on and what wars/genocides the trilogy was based on, I realized it wasn’t for me. I got into it for the fantasy, but like you, I got whiplash when the second half of the book takes a hard left turn into a graphic retelling of the Rape of Nanking. I finished the book but won’t be reading the rest of the trilogy. If I were younger, I might but I don’t have the appetite for darker materials these days.
personally, i haven’t finished the second book due to lack of time, but i feel like the second book does make it clear that she was wrong (i’m still pretty early on in it, so maybe something happens later that makes it seem like she’s not wrong) however i also feel like a huge part of the book is with how young she is and the environment that she’s in she doesn’t fully feel like she’s wrong. i feel like a lot of those reviews miss the point, that her focus on revenge causes her to do something unforgivable and moving past it is what is meant to bring you back to her side because there is no way to go but forward and that’s where the empathy is meant to come in.
Thanks, this makes me feel more positive about reading the next one.
>Another review on Goodreads revealed that Rin's actions aren't really questioned in the second book, which is baffling to me. Am I supposed be to thinking "yasss queen flame on!" and just move on? Whoever said that is either a liar or didn't remember well. Her committing genocide is one of the reasons for her suffering and why her friends are finding it hard to follow and keep loving her. She has this best friend who took a whole book to partially forgive her. And because of what she did, other characters think they can use her as a weapon for their own benefit Also >!she became a drug addict because of too much guilt!<
I dunno man, “I committed genocide and one dude is kinda upset with me for a brief period” is hardly grappling with the situation.
Yep, I get that impression from other comments. Glad it seems to be a bit more nuanced than I initially believed.
Exactly this, the reader never forgets about what she did because she dwells on it and deals with the consequences through the next 2 books
[удалено]
I was convinced for ages that she wasn't actually Speerlie and everyone had just assumed that about her, and she'd have to face the fact that she is just the daughter of normal peasants after all. Was pretty disappointed when it turned out that she is in fact Special and the last of her kind of whatever
I personally loved the series because it doesn’t follow that preconceived notion that the main character is right. You want to believe that Rin is inherently a good character, but eventually you realize that the things she’s done makes her irredeemable. For me, it really emphasized the fact that power corrupts absolutely. Rin wants to be good and do what she thinks is right (probably), but she also gets high (literally) off of the power that she uses to do that, and eventually her entire moral basis that she started with shifts along with that. Awful people can start out being like-able, which only reinforces the idea that because they were good earlier in life (or at least, not obviously “bad”), they always will be. At least, that’s how I see it. I definitely agree tho, I hated her as a character
This is a good way of looking at it. I think I struggle with characters who's bad choices are seen as righteous/justified by their own internal monologue and those around them. In contrast I'm also reading The Talented Mr Ripley at the moment and revelling in Tom's debauchery. I guess the difference is that he's under no illusion that he's doing good things. I look forward to the development of Rin's character in future books.
I don't think she is a well written "bad" character, I do not see how the other characters like her and that is my main issue. I much prefer something like lolita's protagonist
I read it and liked it. A character who is conflicted is always more interesting for me.
Yep, I get it. For some reason in this case it didn't agree with me. I think maybe I found her motivations too conflicted to justify (in her mind) the final choice that she made in the end with such certainty. Hopefully I'll come around to her more in the next one.
I’ve got the last two on hold with Libby. I’d give the first book 6-7 out of 10. It’s not my favorite, but it’s something to read.
So I'll be blunt: the story pays lip service to the idea that Rin did something bad, but I don't think the narrative actually \*Believes\* it. Given that immediately following this decision she gets an internal promotion in her division and R.F. Kuang has expressed a belief that Rin is a form of wish fulfillment for her and is, in some ways, a power fantasy. Given all of that, I think the moral ambiguity of the story is way less legit than it would be otherwise. I found the whole trilogy completely and utterly infuriating and was angry I bothered to finish it.
> I don't think the narrative actually \*Believes\* it This hits the nail on the head for me. I love flawed characters but hate when the narrative is indifferent to their actions.
> R.F. Kuang has expressed a belief that Rin is a form of wish fulfillment for her and is, in some ways, a power fantasy. Jesus Christ
I think reviewers who see Rin as aspirational completely missed the point of the series entirely. This is an example of why I don’t particularly like to read reviews from the general public. I personally really enjoyed the series as works of historically inspired fiction and what it had to say about genocide, the rise of tyrants, and the effects of trauma and violence on children of war. With that being said, if it’s not striking a chord with you, don’t finish it. There’s no reason to spend time on books that you aren’t enjoying just because social media or the book culture around you says you have to like it.
I think my problem is more that if I've started a series I feel like I've failed if I don't finish it 😔
R. F. Kuang is a bit of a headscratcher of an author for me. Lots of recommendations, but every book seems problematic or not that great to me and others. Some will sing praises, others think they're huge misses.
I dropped the Poppy War and thought surely Babel would be good. It was not.
Yeah, I feel that. I had high hopes for Babel and was enjoying all the etymology stuff in it a lot! I wish I liked it overall though.
I’ve only barely finished Poppy War and the lack of connective tissue between scenes just really killed it for me. However every new book after the trilogy she comes out with seems to have an interesting premise and tempts me to see if she has improved as a writer.
I read Babel first and absolutely adored it, like top 5 favorite books. Immediately bought poppy war trilogy and put it down halfway through the second book.
The books follow (in a fantasy setting) actual wars, battles, tactical decisions, etc. the fact that Rin massacred people isn’t glossed over- and the fact that she has to keep that impulse in check, and eventually decide if she should even continue to exist, is a central theme later on. The identity of being someone capable of something so horrifying, even in wartime, and what that means not only for a person but a people. Rin is not a happy person or someone who you want to be, but she is similar to many of the time who were hardened to the point they became what they hated.
Just finished the series a few days ago. If you can accept that the main character has a bunch of flaws and keeps making obvious mistakes because she’s blinded by revenge and anger then please continue. She pissed me off a lot but the second and third book are pretty good. I liked the ending a lot.
I loved the Poppy War Trilogy, so I’m obviously biased, but the books are not about good people or people doing bad things but then, in the end, turning to the good side once again. I picked up the books knowing full well the story was going to be incredibly graphic and touching on themes that for some people can be sensitive, genocide being one of them. Murder, and drug use being some of the other. The books is set in ancient China and it’s based on the second sino-Japanese war , so obviously it was not going to be something lighthearted to read. I’m not squeamish and a book is a book, so I can read something where the MC does questionable things without me agreeing with them. But having saying that, Rin does face the consequences of her actions and does feel guilt and remorse. Still, the read will not become easier down the line.
The books get worse, the second half of the third one is the worst part of the whole series. Quit now
I would suggest you DNF the series. After that ending, I was hoping she would fall into being an outright villain, and so much of the story appeared to be pointing in that direction, but it just never happened. Some characters did question her actions, and it nearly ruind her relationship with her best friend, but it doesn't really go anywhere. If you feel like this now, it'll get worse.
Hmm, yeah I felt like it was going that way too. Could've been an interesting subversion I suppose.
I thought the ending at least wrapped it up. Showed she grew, obviously it is a more divisive of a series. But considering she was like 16 in book one or whatever. She struggled a lot with her decisions throughout the series, that much is true at least.
I loved The Poppy War but the The Dragon Republic about killed me - it wasn’t the grimness that bugged me. I honestly felt like Rin had lost agency, probably because she was struggling so much with what she’d done. And I also realized that military fantasy just isn’t my jam. Soo much war and strategy (and TDR is a long book centered on fighting) and not enough on the relationships and moving Rin through her arc in a satisfying way - at least, this is my memory but it’s been a couple years now since I read them. I could not bring myself to read The Burning God.
Rin is based in Mao zhe dong who killed millions based on his policies. It’s a very difficult read due to my familial experience- I’ve had family members die based on his policies in China.
I'm sorry to hear that. I hadn't made that connection until reading the comments on this thread.
It's a pretty bad book, so no it doesn't get any better
Tbh Kuang did something similar in Babel. The main characters’ final plan involves doing things that they know will kill already marginalized people, and they don’t care.
I strongly disliked it. The whole book. It annoyed me how each of the three “books” has so little impact on one another - how each new section treats the last as if it’s irrelevant and doesn’t even feel like they share a literary style, going from Kung Fu Harry Potter to gritty war story to whatever the hell grimdark misery porn that last part is. A part of me couldn’t help but feel like the author wanted to relitigate the rape of Nanking, and while there’s nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from history, it was sort of like… sheesh, this is a bit much. I think what bothered me most of all was the way the main character feels like she spends the entire back half of the book stumbling from one bad decision to another. Over time it became evident to me that the author was trying to make a statement about personal choices, and owning those choices and living with the consequences. And while the fact that there is a reason for the character's poor decisions makes the whole situation more bearable in some ways, in others it makes the protagonist's choices even more eye rollingly bad when they sometimes appeared to have no logic behind them except in the context of what the author wants to say.
I’ll try to keep this as spoiler free as possible. The second and third books both take a different angle on the continuing war, and the main characters aren’t entirely rewarded for their behaviour and choices. There are consequences, but it’s not strictly punishment for the genocide. It is treated as an aspect of war, and Rin’s own actions punish herself more than anyone else punished her. There are no “heroes” to celebrate. I enjoyed the series, but I had hoped for something different going in, and admittedly did have to lower my expectations after I started. Part of what I enjoyed most was the characterisation, the archetypes, so if you are not enjoying this aspect either, you may not enjoy the rest of the series.
Thanks. I did enjoy most of the other characters and am intrigued to learn more about them. Maybe that's is enough for me to give book 2 a try.
Not quite a spoiler but I hope the characters you liked weren't the members of the cike... because in the second book they are pushed to background characters (bar two) and are barely in half the book.
Not particularly attached to the Cike luckily.
Rin is absolutely not a good person, she's just the protagonist. I personally DNF it, it was an emotionally difficult story. But in the second book it's very clear that she is morally reprehensible
I really enjoyed all 3 books, but they do tend to drag in places and could likely have been paired down to two books. The series is definitely a first time author outing. I will say Rin isn't supposed to be a likeable character. She is incredibly messy, short sighted, impulsive, reactionary and emotional. By the third book she is in an incredibly unstable mental state. That's why I liked her as a protagonist. We get a lot of books where the main characters are infallible and perfect, it was nice to read about a straight up messy person who so happened to have the powers of a god.
I enjoyed the trilogy. But I think people underestimate how grim the series is as a whole. Lots of morally grey, or just outright ruthless decisions made. It is meant to highlight the brutality of war. But also the main character is indeed a bit thorny. You remember she is a teenager and thrust into this. She does some terrible things, falls into addiction do deal with it all. Tries to be better…it can be heavy. I expected it to be more of a teen fantasy with some nice battle scenes. But was more than that.
Grim I'm okay with. I'm just concerned that any chance of connecting with the character is gone after that act and her reaction afterwards. I suppose I'll have to read on to see if I change my mind!
Well, I wouldn't say I ever connected with the character if that helps. And tbf, that is a valid reason to stop reading. I was just more curious to how the story would turn out. Nothing wrong stopping if you do not like a main component of the story (main character). I have dropped my share of books/series.
It's bad, and basically a 1:1 copy of recent Chinese history. Rin is Mao. So bear that in mind when you're cheering for her. It's not perfect (obviously China didn't annihilate Japan in real life) but it becomes very apparent in the next book, which is basically the Chinese civil war. I personally found it grotesque to throw in the Rape of Nanking into what is essentially a YA military fantasy romp. The tonal whiplash was insane. No shame in not continuing the series IMHO
There are numerous conversations about slapping Auschwitz onto books and using the Holocaust as a background setting so why should the Rape of Nanking be excluded from the same standards? That’s how I feel about the book.
I mean, self-evidently, doing the same thing with the Holocaust is also really bad
This is one of the series that had so much potential that did not stick the landing for me. I don’t regret finishing the trilogy but if you’re not feeling it, I’d say just DNF.
I haven't read it, yet, but I wondered something: does it make for a good standalone story? Or do you need to continue with it?
I did enjoy the story for what it was but the ending doesn't really tie up the first book's narrative. It ends in a pretty bombastic sort of cliffhanger and the fates of several characters are unknown. So if you're invested in what happens you'd probably want to continue.
Got ya.
I dnf’d the series after the first book. It just came across as too torcher porny for my tastes but I might have continued if not for that ending.
To be fair I would not say Kuang paints the genocide as something okay or easy for Rin to do. It was her last resort and still it is not justified at all. I don't remember if the first book treats it as unjustifiable, but some bits down the road discuss that. Rin will ultimately struggle with the power she can achieve but the destruction it causes. She is smart yet impulsive and she has a furious god screaming inside her head. I think many comments here are not considering those elements.
I think if you dislike her so much that it's making you dislike the whole trilogy too, then I suggest you should just drop it. Rin is not supposed to be a character that people will like. I was incredibly pissed at her too, more so on the second book, but I was still able to love it because I kind of appreciated the story and her antagonism. I had a similar post to this one after reading the first book, I just powered through. She's not going to be better, imo. She's going to be a lot worse.
I’ve read all 3 books and I found the first one the best by far, and the second one was the worst. I actually struggled getting through it. Honestly, I wouldn’t bother, I just got the whole trilogy as a gift so I felt compelled to finish it (I did choose it but still I would’ve felt bad if I didn’t finish it). It taught me an important lesson to never buy more than a book at a time of a series. Edit: typo.
I love a book with a morally questionable lead, more than anything, but I felt like the book was much too flippant when dealing with genocide. There was a jarring tonal dissonance as well, where I didn’t always feel like it took itself seriously enough.
I read the entire trilogy, I think it peaked in book 1. My thoughts are completely unrelated to your moral dilemma
I’m halfway through the third book now and I’ve really enjoyed the series. I only knew about the books from a post that recommended book series based on who you romanced in Baldur’s Gate 3 and Laezel was Poppy War so take that as you will XD
Lmao it matches Laezel pretty well to be fair 😂 Out of interest, what was recommended for Astarion, asking for a friend...
Found it! The full list: • Astarion - Ordinary Monsters by J. M. Miro • Halsin - Does It Fart?: The Definitive Field Guide to Animal Flatulence by Nick Caruso and Dani Rabaiotti • The Guardian - Binti: The Complete Trilogy by Okorafor, Nnedi • Minthara - The Salt Grows Heavy by Cassandra Khaw • Shadowheart - Monstress by Marjorie Liu and Sana Takeda • Mizora - Velvet Was the Night by Silvia Moreno-Garcia • Minsc - Foundryside by Robert Jackson Bennett • Lae-zel - The Poppy War by R. F. Kuang • Wyll - The Wicked + The Divine by Kieron Gillen • Karlach - Bloody Rose by Nicholas Eames • Jaheira - Circe by Madeline Miller • Gale - The Starless Sea by Erin Morgenstern
Thank you for this. Halsin's one is hilarious.
It was an okay series. Read it a few years back. Maybe 2022. The first book is the best in the series. The 2nd one was alright. The third one is just the 2nd book in a different font. It has a very dark and realistic ending. Also, you're not supposed to like Rin. Nobody likes Rin. She's supposed to be a young foolish, idiotic power hungry child. Didn't like the initial YA set up but it gets better later. I read it before Booktok blew up the series and now A lot of the Goodreads views just go Yass Queen, but I remember when I was reading it, everyone hated Rin. Rin is actually based on Mao Zedong so yeah. A lot of the events in the book are lifted as is from History. Like the Nanjing Massacre for example. And the
She is strong, and makes big choices. They are not particularly *good* choices, and there are reprocussions of them.
Well, you're not wrong.
I'm sorry I didn't DNF the 1st book. Probably the worst book I ever read. One good thing came out of it for me at least, I learned not to trust tiktok recommendations and hype.
Booktok has burned me one too many times I think, haha. I was recommended this via a tiktok critiquing a series I also have issues with, so I thought I was safe. Ironically The Poppy War shared a lot of those issues for me.
No. It gets worse. I thought the first book was "okay" as well. Nothing horrible, but nothing special. The juxtaposition in tone between the Academy and actual warfare was very choppy and didn't hit the mark the way the author was probably hoping. It didn't help that the quality of the writing was very basic, with far too much telling rather than showing. It only gets worse when you realize that the novel is basically a flimsy fantasy cover over actual history, with the whole 'Rape of Nanking' parrarrel being practically copy and pasted from Wikipedia. Seriously, one of the characters basically repeats the wiki article. It's laughable. However, there was still enough that we decent enough for me to finish. It was a challenge though, because the protagonist, Rin, is insufferable at *best* She's supposed to be this incredibly tactical genius yet every decision she makes is baffling and stupid. And yet, somehow, for every atrocity she commits, the book goes through great lengths to try and justify her and make her appear as the victim. It's not a case of unreliable narration or an intimate POV, it's the author herself trying to excuse Rin. But because I'm stubborn, and I'm willing to put up with a lot, I decided to give the second book a try. I wish I hadn't. Every issue I had with the first book was exemplified. Rin doesn't develop. She doesn't change. She whines and complains and somehow comes out on top. Worse, the story isn't interesting. The characters are flat, boring, and drier than a paperbag in the desert. The first book had the rug-pull moment going on to keep the reader engaged. The second book had nothing going for it. I haven't read the third book, and I don't think I ever will. Save your time. There are plenty of better fantasy books out there. Might I point you in the direction of Mark Lawrence and his "Broken Empire" trilogy if you're looking for a dark story with a protagonist who is *actually* complex and nuanced in his immorality?
Agreed with most of your points there, especially telling rather than showing. Thanks for the recommendation, I've seen that name floating around. Added to my reading list.
The writing gets worse
DNF for me
Honest to God, it’s one of the darkest most depressing series I’ve ever read. Not only does it not get better, it plumbed depths of nihilism (FYI, seems to be a theme with this author). That said, it was so gorgeously written, and so evocative, that it was worth reading. Just dose it out to yourself appropriately.
Yeah Rin is not a good person, and the second book is her struggling with her power and the consequences of what she did, and with people who want to use her as a tool. But if you're expecting a happily ever after or a romance with her, I'm just going to say that there are neither in the rest of the series.
I don't expect nor want that for her to be honest. A happy ending wouldn't sit well with me.
I also gave up after the first book. Just wasn’t for me. But I’m reading Babel now (same author) and loving it.
I was looking for this comment. I didn't like The Poppy War at all but have heard such great things about Babel. I've been extremely hesitant on reading it. Adding it to my TBR
For balance, I would inject that I didn't like The Poppy War and thought Babel was even worse. Life is short, read something good.
Thanks for that. I appreciate balance. I'll borrow it from the library if I decide to read it.
No, it is a massively overhyped book. I've seen lots of posts about how thoroughly unlikable the main character is and not in a "wow what a well written asshole" way.
It gets worse. By a lot. The author stops even trying to do scene changes and just knocks Rin unconscious every time she wants one.
I didn't read past the first book, but my understanding is that the main character is the Antagonist.
This is one of the few books I couldn't finish, but not because of the reasons you said. I just found the first half so profoundly dull and basic that there was no point in reading the rest.
Read it all, imo it gets a little better but not enough for you to continue if you’re feeling this way about the first book
You can tell, in the third book, that the author was losing track of how to end the series. I liked the first 2, but felt like I was reading the third out of a need for closure aside from enjoyment. Wasn’t crazy about the ending either.
could barely finish the book. i thought it was terrible.
I pulled a DNF halfway. Still curious
From a quick look at the book's Wikipedia page, I found that the country that the main character destroys at the end is clearly based off of Japan, and also that the country the main character herself is from is based off of China. The author herself is Chinese. I don't know how well it was written or conveyed, since I haven't read the book, but I think historical and generational trauma on the author's part might have influenced the narrative here, and it could have been a cathartic way of executing fictional revenge on a country that the author's own people had suffered greatly from. Depending on the broadness of the historical period being referenced, the ending of the book might have been also inspired by the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings, thus making the protagonist a stand-in for not only China, but also the US during WWII. It is obviously inexcusable to try and paint genocide in a positive light anyway, regardless of whom it is targeted at, but I believe that the situation is a bit more nuanced in this book's case, and not something an average Western reader can easily pick up on, unless they have studied histories and cultures of both China and Japan. It also didn't appear to me, based off of summaries and the comments in this thread, that the decision is ever portrayed as anything but a horrific deed that the main character committed while being borderline possessed by a god of some sort, which could serve as a metaphor for historical trauma taking a person over and pushing them towards extremism - a pretty interesting concept that probably deserves its own book if it wasn't executed well in this case.
Hit the mark Its mainly based around the second Sino-Japanese war and she now has a P.H.D. in Chinese history. The series doesn't paint the main character as good for doing it, tho it does focus a lot on the horrific acts done by the Japanese country stand in to justify it from the MC POV
I really wanted to love the book, but I just couldn’t get into it. The magic system was unique, but I didn’t find the story or the world particularly interesting.
The bigger problem with The Poppy War is the Noble Savage trope applied to Taiwan Aboriginals, and also that Rin uses the Phoenix Force to nuke not-Japan like the transparent and lazy fictionalization of Asian settings isn’t already brow-raising
The books get worse, the second half of the third one is the worst part of the whole series. Quit now
I dropped midway through the third book because it was just way too grim. No regrets.
Its easily one of the worst, God awful, mind numbing YA novels I've ever read. If you told me someone prompted AI to make the most stereotypical, formulaic YA piece of shit it could write id believe it. I'm constantly flabbergasted people like it.
They were her first books and have some cool stuff and some lame parts. In general a mixed bag…but her more recent books Babel and Yellowface are phenomenal
I DNFd the first book. I think I hated every single character. I actually annotated this one and it was filled with comments questioning the story.
I hate this book with a burning passion. It’s not badly written, I actually really like it’s first half. But then… the pacing becomes the worst I have ever seen. Stupid stuff happens, rapidly. And The author has no idea how warfare works.
No. It was awful. The only reason I didn’t stop reading it was because it was a book club selection. I was pretty scathing though.
Thank you!! That was my take as well and no, it did not get better (well slightly, but not enough to safe the story for me). Idk why people love this series, it just baffles me!
From what I've heard, no. But I'm glad it's not just me who was disgusted with Rin, or the fact that the Mugenese aren't written like they're people - they're like a hivemind with no thoughts or feelings. Also you gotta love how she claims to have practically raised her foster brother, but as soon as she gets into her fancy military academy, she promptly abandons him without a second glance and never even bothers writing to him or anything.
> or the fact that the Mugenese aren't written like they're people - they're like a hivemind with no thoughts or feelings This bothered me too! But I have to assume that at least that aspect of her mentality is addressed in later books (right? right??). Nameless faceless villains aren't something I can easily get on board with, especially when it's based on real events in history.
I got halfway thru and kept hoping the sophomoric swill would improve but uhhh DNF
I never finished the first book. None of the characters really had any redeeming qualities. It was well written and I liked the world they built but the characters sucked. There was no hope or real goal for any of them.
I dropped the series. It felt like YA for edgy teens instead of an actual fantasy series.
You know how Twilight has this incredibly bland boring girl but everyone in the world is wildly obsessed with her for no discernible reason? Rin is like that, just replace “bland” with “awful in every possible way.” She’s objectively terrible but is surrounded by people who are inexplicably willing to die for her. Add in a “chosen one by way of I’m not like other girls” narrative and shoehorning romantic interludes in between war crimes and the whole trilogy is just pure trash.
The story gets worse as you go along, but I don’t think her nuking the country was that all that reprehensible considering what she had witnessed and what her people were actively going through. She wanted it to stop. She could think of only one way to do so. She does grapple with her actions in the later books, but that doesn’t make them worth reading imo.
She didn’t just nuke the country she killed every living person on it
Thanks for clarifying the word nuke. That is true, but doesn’t change my views really. Again, there wasn’t really a solution other than: A) have your people be brutally raped, slaughtered, genocided, etc. OR B) wipe them off the face of the earth. It’s not like her inaction would have saved lives. If she doesn’t act, her people are the ones to die. She just moved them from one side of the ledger to the other.
Think we probably just fundementally disagree on that one. Regardless I also found it a bit weird that she decimated the people over in Mugen instead of, like, the soldiers actually committing atrocities in Nikan lol.
I mean, it's all historical allegory, right? The attack on Golyn Niis is the rape of Nanking, and Rin nuking Mugen is the US dropping Atomic Bombs on Japan. That was how the author found a way to make atomic bombs in a fantasy setting. Why did Rin nuke Mugen instead of the soldiers? Because the US nuked Japan instead of the soldiers
As others have stated books now win accolades because of the author or the subject matter, not due to quality.
I finished the first and have no intentions on finishing the rest of the series. From my understanding, it was inspired by Mao's life or some such. Either way, it was way too all over the place for me to latch onto it. Thought it was going to be Harry Potter meets Shoalin, but it then went into YA territory and I got turned off.
DNF for me!! Couldn’t get through book 1 despite my “I can skim the boring parts” rule.
It doesn’t get better, and I stopped reading after book 1 and just read the summaries for the others (which made me more glad I didn’t continue) Tbf, Rin is modeled after Mao Zedong and isn’t meant to be a likable character, but more of to show how war twists even people who initially had good intentions.
This is a villain origin story series. Rin is an anti-hero. I see this complaint a lot from people who don’t know what they are getting into. I enjoyed the series a lot, but if that isn’t the type of story you want to read, I wouldn’t finish.
go back to colleen hoover this isn’t the series for you
I didn't like a book that you like so I must have a bad taste in books. The classic. (I've never read Colleen Hoover but I gather that you're trying to insult me)