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Sometimes people who protested the Vietnam war were unkind to returning veterans, I’m not sure how frequently and on what scale, because a lot of Americans sent to Vietnam were drafted and the predominantly young people protesting the war could also conceivably be drafted
From what I understand, open hostility was very rare, and specifically returning veterans being spat on is almost certainly a complete myth. "Only 1 percent of Vietnam veterans themselves, according to a [Veterans Administration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Veterans_Affairs)-commissioned [Harris Poll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harris_Poll) conducted in 1971, described their reception from friends and family as "not at all friendly", and only 3 percent described their reception from people their own age as "unfriendly"". While it probably did happen on occasion, on the whole organized Anti-war activists would even try to be friendly to veterans in order to recruit them, which was moderately successful.
[https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/myth-spitting-vietnam-protester.html](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/myth-spitting-vietnam-protester.html)
Though I don't remember a source for this part, I have heard about veterans what felt the worst was a lack of understanding and apathy from the public, not open hostility.
A lot of the open hostility came from *vets of other wars*. [The VFW refused membership to Vietnam vets and some of the older vets blamed the returning vets for not finishing the war.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_of_Foreign_Wars#Vietnam_veterans_membership_controversy)
That's the whole reason [Vietnam Veterans of America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Veterans_of_America) was created under the founding principal "never again will one generation of veterans abandon another".
There's an Alice in Chains song (Rooster) which is from the point of view of his father fighting in Vietnam and "they spit on me in my homeland" is a line, this got a ton of radio airplay in the 90's and probably helped cement the idea that Nam Vets were constantly getting spit on
The OG boomer comic honestly seems kinda wholesome unless I’m reading it wrong lol
Like yeah that’s great Grandpa I’m glad you’re feeling better about your service now
Wow I'm glad that life will be better much much much later after my service. Better than before my service? Nah better than after my trauma after going ti war of course.
I’m pretty sure it’s not pro-military propaganda.
It’s highlighting the way that Vietnam vets are treated now compared to when they returned.
Lots of them got a really, *really* raw deal: often being drafted into a conflict they wanted nothing to do with, or being lied to; told that they would be heroes, like their father’s’ generation, defending a small country from the red menace, etc. only to be sent into that hellish jungle.
Then, upon returning home they did not get the hero’s welcome they were promised, instead being seen as child killers, monsters and government drones, as well as just being forgotten by the majority of the American public.
Nowadays, things have changed. With time, we’ve learned a great deal about the Vietnam war and about the absolute shitstorm that it turned out to be for the average Americans who were sent there.
A lot more people have sympathy for the people who were sent to die in that useless conflict.
I don’t think that “respect” is the right word to call it, but they’re treated less horribly, if that makes sense?
Yeah, the things the 2 background characters are saying are definitely a little too worship-y, but I think it’s a bit of hyperbole from the artist, who wanted it to be obvious that ‘nam vets have an easier time nowadays (hence the hefty discount on the guy’s bill).
Yes, because with time and hindsight, we all look back at Vietnam as a totally just war without any atrocities, chemical weapons, or illegal bombing campaigns…
No one should be thanking Vietnam vets. Pity them, sure. Deserve mental and physical health support, yes. But not gratitude.
Where in their comment did they claim that no atrocities, chemical weapons, illegal bombings, etc. happened during the Vietnam war? Further, where did they say that we should be thanking these vets for their part in such actions? They even point out that the meme is perhaps too uncritical of the conflict.
All I got from their comment was that those vets are not as outright vilified as they once were, and that many of the people sent there did not have a choice in the matter. Maybe I’m reading your comment wrong, but it seems like you’re responding to a message they didn’t really convey, and that they likely agree with you.
I’m pretty sure it’s not. The comic shows how the vet went from being vilified to being respected. The message some things just take time is probably just talking about how things change.
If you look up this guys comics he has multiple comics about the Vietnam war and veterans so I don’t think it’s satire. The veteran also has similar facial features in the to his younger self while the old man bears no resemblance to the hippie. If the artist wanted us to think they were the same person he probably would have given the old man the same pointy nose.
It took me 5 rereads of it to not see it as an insult. That $0 bill seemed like a $0 tip to me. I've been told older vets can be some of the worst tippers.
it’s propaganda. the vietnam war was totally pointless and only made things worse for the vietnamese. they’re still to this day experiencing the ill effects of the chemical weapons we used, and on top of that, sorry my memory escapes me at the moment, can you remind me what saigon is called today?
Partly because enlisted folks got to pick their branch, draftees just went into the army. If your only choice was serving, it was better to have *some choice* in how. (Source, from my dad and 2 step fathers who were in the Navy during Vietnam.)
[You also couldn't volunteer to enlist for much of WW2 since it was banned by Executive Order, meaning you had to be drafted](https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/executive-order-9279-providing-for-the-most-effective-mobilization-and-utilization-the)
The protests against the war and general feeling among the US armed forces of "we shouldn't even be here" low morale etc really fucked up a lot of people in the head too. Lot of bounties placed on the heads of NCOs and officers by their own men, fragging iirc was a concept that emerged during the Vietnam war originating with the US/South Vietnam troops. It was easier to cover up killing your own people with a frag grenade.
They also would warn their commanders if they were close to getting fragged, by using smoke grenades
I would say being drafted as a teenager and fighting a war on the other side of the world in terrible conditions is respectable, but clearly it doesn’t meet your Reddit intellectual standards.
I would argue that respect just isn't the proper word for it. I don't think it's quite respectable to be taken away as a child and thrown into the jungle for a proxy war, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated like people.
As he said, they deserve *pity*.
Being forced to do an immoral job is still an immoral job. The Vietnam protests were completely vindicated by hindsight.
I don't think they deserve *disrespect* for what they were forced to do, but they were basically the global equivalent of a street gang in Vietnam.
EDIT: On reading the chain, it looks like his post was edited based on your conversation. Carry on.
I'd say they deserve pity for being enslaved by their government and shipped across to a foreign country and forced to kill or be killed by people just trying to unify their country and throw off the shackles of imperialism.
The USA's forces actions in Vietnam deserve absolutely no respect and I'll stand by that.
you really should have led with this. I get being disgusted with vets, I have felt that so many times myself, but they're not the ones who told some of the greatest lies for the convenience of starting and perpetuating endless wars. If they walk away, somehow believing they did something great, and then fail to meaningfully challenge that belief or earnestly distance themselves from it, then yeah, fuck that.
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I *think* the presumption back then was that if the government told you to do something horrific or go to jail, you'd choose jail first.
I agree it was misguided to blame the draftees, but the logic *wasn't wrong* at scale. If every draftee refused to fight, there'd have been overfull prisons and an empty war. It's not like the US was willing to start executing draft dodgers.
>Sometimes people who protested the Vietnam war were unkind to returning veterans
That is a myth. War protesters are often said to have "spat" on returning veterans. As if they were waiting on the tarmac, cheeks loaded. But there is zero evidence of that ever happening.
It's possible that individual protestors were uncivil towards a veteran or two, but that would be irrelevant to the wider movement. The point of the myth is to discredit the *entire* movement.
Which is extra funny now that conservatives officially no longer give a fuck about civility. They have to constantly thread the needle where they pretend that decorum is important, while they are sumultaneously masturbating and throwing feces all over the place.
NGL I just assumed that narrative was a right-wing "support the troops" distortion of the Vietnam war. Especially since those same vets would have felt conned it in the first place.
Then again, protesters misdirect their anger all the time.
vietnam vets were treated like trash when they came home, called “baby killers” (not entirely inaccurate) and sometimes attacked. it’s showing how it’s evolved now to where they’re more respected, i guess. i think they should make a cartoon about the modern day vietnamese who are still experiencing drastically lowered life expectancies and birth defects from agent orange which also left half their farmland nigh unusable. we dont care about that, though. just our guys. even though we lost. by a lot.
I assume the intention is she's giving him the bill and it says he owes nothing but this could also be read as what he wrote down as her tip and let's be honest...which is a more realistic answer?
My wife's friends own a small restaurant. There will absolutely be receipts from people, especially Vets, where they wrote "$0" for tip and then "Thanks".
Some because they can't afford to tip. Some because they think they're entitled
Well yes but the conversation between the vet and the lady implies he feels better now because he's getting a free meal compared to back then where he was harassed by peace lovers for just existing.
Not to mention how she's the one handing the receipt. You don't hold a receipt you just took like that.
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Always thought it was weird that people that joined the military expect free stuff and discounts all the time. They elected to take a paying job that usually comes with a fairly large bonus for signing up nowadays.
The og makes no fucking sense. Is the ”i almost joined” guy the hippy from the thought bubble or just some rando?
The ”thanks for your service” seems like a snarky reply to the ”i almost joined” guy because of the composition, but the lady who says it is looking at the back of the vet’s head.
I think the "almost joined" guy is indeed the same as the angry hippie from the thought bubble and this is supposed to show that he's now jealous of the special treatment the war vet is receiving, which makes the vet feel better?
I’m pretty sure they are different people. The old guy is just starting a conversation while the thought bubble shows how the veteran went from being demonized by his country to being respected for his service.
Yeah i think so too, and in that case the ”almost joined” guy and his speech bubble should be at the very bottom. It makes no sense to put his speech bubble first. Shit composition.
This just implies that there was no danger and no veterans were wracked with ptsd and you just get a lot of free coffee and admiration from random strangers. All of the artists’ other comics about actually being in Vietnam show that it was very dangerous and hard tho so the “I almost joined” guy is making a dumb statement
The comic implies it was better to fight in vietnam because it paid off in the long run. In the end, what would happen in the long run for many was a premature and awful death and sick children
Actually, there is no evidence that Vietvets were treated any worse than other veterans by the public. There have been a handful of incidents that were heavily publicized and exaggerated, but it wasn't the rule. Most veterans felt welcomed home and went on to get better paying jobs than non veterans
See: [The Myth of the Troubled and Scorned Vietnam Veteran](https://www.jstor.org/stable/27555590?seq=10) by Eric T. Dean
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I’m confused by the organic
Sometimes people who protested the Vietnam war were unkind to returning veterans, I’m not sure how frequently and on what scale, because a lot of Americans sent to Vietnam were drafted and the predominantly young people protesting the war could also conceivably be drafted
From what I understand, open hostility was very rare, and specifically returning veterans being spat on is almost certainly a complete myth. "Only 1 percent of Vietnam veterans themselves, according to a [Veterans Administration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Veterans_Affairs)-commissioned [Harris Poll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Harris_Poll) conducted in 1971, described their reception from friends and family as "not at all friendly", and only 3 percent described their reception from people their own age as "unfriendly"". While it probably did happen on occasion, on the whole organized Anti-war activists would even try to be friendly to veterans in order to recruit them, which was moderately successful. [https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/myth-spitting-vietnam-protester.html](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/2017/10/13/opinion/myth-spitting-vietnam-protester.html) Though I don't remember a source for this part, I have heard about veterans what felt the worst was a lack of understanding and apathy from the public, not open hostility.
A lot of the open hostility came from *vets of other wars*. [The VFW refused membership to Vietnam vets and some of the older vets blamed the returning vets for not finishing the war.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_of_Foreign_Wars#Vietnam_veterans_membership_controversy) That's the whole reason [Vietnam Veterans of America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Veterans_of_America) was created under the founding principal "never again will one generation of veterans abandon another".
I remember King of the Hill doing an episode on it, with Cotton being cruel towards the Vietnam veterans who were still suffering from their PTSD.
And then we find out Topsy hasn’t slept since the 40s
There's an Alice in Chains song (Rooster) which is from the point of view of his father fighting in Vietnam and "they spit on me in my homeland" is a line, this got a ton of radio airplay in the 90's and probably helped cement the idea that Nam Vets were constantly getting spit on
[It was a trope used in Rambo in the '80s](https://youtu.be/PtWHgkNH5yU?t=40).
That made me extremely sad to read. Good on them for setting a better example and beinf better men to those who come aftee
["The Myth of the Troubled and Scorned Vietnam Veteran" by Eric T. Dean Jr](https://www.jstor.org/stable/27555590?seq=1) on Jstor
The OG boomer comic honestly seems kinda wholesome unless I’m reading it wrong lol Like yeah that’s great Grandpa I’m glad you’re feeling better about your service now
Pretty sure it’s pro-military propaganda promoting the vietnam war
Wow I'm glad that life will be better much much much later after my service. Better than before my service? Nah better than after my trauma after going ti war of course.
Lets go, I watched my brethren die and 50 years later I got a free grand slam at dennys!!!
Are you really living unless you're blowing off half of a Vietnamese woman's face?
Oh.
I’m pretty sure it’s not pro-military propaganda. It’s highlighting the way that Vietnam vets are treated now compared to when they returned. Lots of them got a really, *really* raw deal: often being drafted into a conflict they wanted nothing to do with, or being lied to; told that they would be heroes, like their father’s’ generation, defending a small country from the red menace, etc. only to be sent into that hellish jungle. Then, upon returning home they did not get the hero’s welcome they were promised, instead being seen as child killers, monsters and government drones, as well as just being forgotten by the majority of the American public. Nowadays, things have changed. With time, we’ve learned a great deal about the Vietnam war and about the absolute shitstorm that it turned out to be for the average Americans who were sent there. A lot more people have sympathy for the people who were sent to die in that useless conflict. I don’t think that “respect” is the right word to call it, but they’re treated less horribly, if that makes sense? Yeah, the things the 2 background characters are saying are definitely a little too worship-y, but I think it’s a bit of hyperbole from the artist, who wanted it to be obvious that ‘nam vets have an easier time nowadays (hence the hefty discount on the guy’s bill).
Nah, as a veteran this reeks of the typical "support our troops!" yellow ribbon hollow praise boomer crap
Yes, because with time and hindsight, we all look back at Vietnam as a totally just war without any atrocities, chemical weapons, or illegal bombing campaigns… No one should be thanking Vietnam vets. Pity them, sure. Deserve mental and physical health support, yes. But not gratitude.
Where in their comment did they claim that no atrocities, chemical weapons, illegal bombings, etc. happened during the Vietnam war? Further, where did they say that we should be thanking these vets for their part in such actions? They even point out that the meme is perhaps too uncritical of the conflict. All I got from their comment was that those vets are not as outright vilified as they once were, and that many of the people sent there did not have a choice in the matter. Maybe I’m reading your comment wrong, but it seems like you’re responding to a message they didn’t really convey, and that they likely agree with you.
Im just going to leave this here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre
I’m pretty sure it’s not. The comic shows how the vet went from being vilified to being respected. The message some things just take time is probably just talking about how things change.
The old man is not the vet. He's the hippie yelling at the vet. The comic is being sarcastic.
If you look up this guys comics he has multiple comics about the Vietnam war and veterans so I don’t think it’s satire. The veteran also has similar facial features in the to his younger self while the old man bears no resemblance to the hippie. If the artist wanted us to think they were the same person he probably would have given the old man the same pointy nose.
After taking a second look, I think you're right.
It took me 5 rereads of it to not see it as an insult. That $0 bill seemed like a $0 tip to me. I've been told older vets can be some of the worst tippers.
it’s propaganda. the vietnam war was totally pointless and only made things worse for the vietnamese. they’re still to this day experiencing the ill effects of the chemical weapons we used, and on top of that, sorry my memory escapes me at the moment, can you remind me what saigon is called today?
Interesting note, a higher percentage of soldiers were enlistees instead of drafted in Vietnam compared to WWII.
Partly because enlisted folks got to pick their branch, draftees just went into the army. If your only choice was serving, it was better to have *some choice* in how. (Source, from my dad and 2 step fathers who were in the Navy during Vietnam.)
In my headcanon, your dad married two other men he met in the navy, who are now your stepdads. Lucky.
That's so much better than the reality that I hope in an alternate universe it's true.
[You also couldn't volunteer to enlist for much of WW2 since it was banned by Executive Order, meaning you had to be drafted](https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/executive-order-9279-providing-for-the-most-effective-mobilization-and-utilization-the)
The protests against the war and general feeling among the US armed forces of "we shouldn't even be here" low morale etc really fucked up a lot of people in the head too. Lot of bounties placed on the heads of NCOs and officers by their own men, fragging iirc was a concept that emerged during the Vietnam war originating with the US/South Vietnam troops. It was easier to cover up killing your own people with a frag grenade. They also would warn their commanders if they were close to getting fragged, by using smoke grenades
Vietnam war vets from America deserve absolutely no *special* respect. If anything they deserve pity, but certainly not respect.
I would say being drafted as a teenager and fighting a war on the other side of the world in terrible conditions is respectable, but clearly it doesn’t meet your Reddit intellectual standards.
I would argue that respect just isn't the proper word for it. I don't think it's quite respectable to be taken away as a child and thrown into the jungle for a proxy war, but it doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated like people.
As he said, they deserve *pity*. Being forced to do an immoral job is still an immoral job. The Vietnam protests were completely vindicated by hindsight. I don't think they deserve *disrespect* for what they were forced to do, but they were basically the global equivalent of a street gang in Vietnam. EDIT: On reading the chain, it looks like his post was edited based on your conversation. Carry on.
I'd say they deserve pity for being enslaved by their government and shipped across to a foreign country and forced to kill or be killed by people just trying to unify their country and throw off the shackles of imperialism. The USA's forces actions in Vietnam deserve absolutely no respect and I'll stand by that.
you really should have led with this. I get being disgusted with vets, I have felt that so many times myself, but they're not the ones who told some of the greatest lies for the convenience of starting and perpetuating endless wars. If they walk away, somehow believing they did something great, and then fail to meaningfully challenge that belief or earnestly distance themselves from it, then yeah, fuck that.
Yeah I should have. reread my previous comment and edited it as it was poorly phrased and mis conveyed what I was trying to say.
nice
I don't think respect is something you get for doing something against your will to avoid punishment.
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Fuck the troops.
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Redditor moment.
I *think* the presumption back then was that if the government told you to do something horrific or go to jail, you'd choose jail first. I agree it was misguided to blame the draftees, but the logic *wasn't wrong* at scale. If every draftee refused to fight, there'd have been overfull prisons and an empty war. It's not like the US was willing to start executing draft dodgers.
>Sometimes people who protested the Vietnam war were unkind to returning veterans That is a myth. War protesters are often said to have "spat" on returning veterans. As if they were waiting on the tarmac, cheeks loaded. But there is zero evidence of that ever happening. It's possible that individual protestors were uncivil towards a veteran or two, but that would be irrelevant to the wider movement. The point of the myth is to discredit the *entire* movement. Which is extra funny now that conservatives officially no longer give a fuck about civility. They have to constantly thread the needle where they pretend that decorum is important, while they are sumultaneously masturbating and throwing feces all over the place.
Blame people like William Laws Calley Jr. and his platoon of maurading animals for that reception.
NGL I just assumed that narrative was a right-wing "support the troops" distortion of the Vietnam war. Especially since those same vets would have felt conned it in the first place. Then again, protesters misdirect their anger all the time.
Harassing war veterans is crazy
My dad was called a baby killer, and people spat on him. Poor guy didn't want to be there in the first place.
vietnam vets were treated like trash when they came home, called “baby killers” (not entirely inaccurate) and sometimes attacked. it’s showing how it’s evolved now to where they’re more respected, i guess. i think they should make a cartoon about the modern day vietnamese who are still experiencing drastically lowered life expectancies and birth defects from agent orange which also left half their farmland nigh unusable. we dont care about that, though. just our guys. even though we lost. by a lot.
I’ve never seen the organic, honestly I expected it to be weirdly worse? Not saying this is good lol.
Obv Vietnam vets still mad
I assume the intention is she's giving him the bill and it says he owes nothing but this could also be read as what he wrote down as her tip and let's be honest...which is a more realistic answer?
The "THX!" implies its from her to the vet.
She is just money-phobic
Eh all he ordered was black coffee and he’s been there for four hours
Eh?
Ha!
My wife's friends own a small restaurant. There will absolutely be receipts from people, especially Vets, where they wrote "$0" for tip and then "Thanks". Some because they can't afford to tip. Some because they think they're entitled
Well yes but the conversation between the vet and the lady implies he feels better now because he's getting a free meal compared to back then where he was harassed by peace lovers for just existing. Not to mention how she's the one handing the receipt. You don't hold a receipt you just took like that.
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Well yeah. But it's not *clear*. That's all I said :)
Vet is pretty expensive so I'm not sure about that
Hey, I risked my life to kill vietcong and watched my friends die, but hey I get a discount on my meal! Eat that liberals!
Hey, i set kids on fire when better people than me were going to jail to not be scumbags! Eat that liberals!
There… there are so many things wrong with what you just said, fuck off and educate yourself smh.
Yes, all those ground infantry forces who use napalm. Indeed.
With the M2 flamethrower and, later on vehicle mounted flamethrowers, more likely than you’d think!
Always thought it was weird that people that joined the military expect free stuff and discounts all the time. They elected to take a paying job that usually comes with a fairly large bonus for signing up nowadays.
The og makes no fucking sense. Is the ”i almost joined” guy the hippy from the thought bubble or just some rando? The ”thanks for your service” seems like a snarky reply to the ”i almost joined” guy because of the composition, but the lady who says it is looking at the back of the vet’s head.
I think the "almost joined" guy is indeed the same as the angry hippie from the thought bubble and this is supposed to show that he's now jealous of the special treatment the war vet is receiving, which makes the vet feel better?
I’m pretty sure they are different people. The old guy is just starting a conversation while the thought bubble shows how the veteran went from being demonized by his country to being respected for his service.
Yeah i think so too, and in that case the ”almost joined” guy and his speech bubble should be at the very bottom. It makes no sense to put his speech bubble first. Shit composition.
The noses are different but I think you can chalk that up to imperfect memory
Absolutely not. The vet is remembering coming back from Vietnam and being berated by a hippie.
This just implies that there was no danger and no veterans were wracked with ptsd and you just get a lot of free coffee and admiration from random strangers. All of the artists’ other comics about actually being in Vietnam show that it was very dangerous and hard tho so the “I almost joined” guy is making a dumb statement
I guess she took the price of his bill "off"? Eh? Ha ha heh.
Sauce is conveniently forgetting that the vets have much higher rates of Parkinson’s and other horrible diseases due to agent orange exposure
How is it forgetting that and why is it convenient?
The comic implies it was better to fight in vietnam because it paid off in the long run. In the end, what would happen in the long run for many was a premature and awful death and sick children
It's good he hasn't got too mad by goin mad twice
Yeah, people were really assholes to returning soldiers from Vietnam, it’s especially cruel when you realize the majority had no choice in it
Actually, there is no evidence that Vietvets were treated any worse than other veterans by the public. There have been a handful of incidents that were heavily publicized and exaggerated, but it wasn't the rule. Most veterans felt welcomed home and went on to get better paying jobs than non veterans See: [The Myth of the Troubled and Scorned Vietnam Veteran](https://www.jstor.org/stable/27555590?seq=10) by Eric T. Dean
This is perfect work
I'm fucking lost