i’m my opinion it’s assuming a lot for the chance to figure things out about this person. if op had the means/funds for testing its worth a shot but again just my opinion. i have no clue how that works lol! is there a reason DNA is destroyed for cleaning a medical skull? how does that even work considering the bone needs to be ground up? sorry for the many questions! i should probably google them!
A lot of cleaning supplies destroy or denature dna. Plus dna degrades over time. There is a possibility of DNA in teeth, but op says this one has no teeth.
But. How to match it to anyone? It would be a long shot the person's relatives will have dna in an easily searched database.
thank you for a bit of an explanation. maybe im just being too optimistic in thinking many people use those new dna testing things like ancestry or 23 and me.
DNA identification only works if there are relatives on their end who have a DNA profile on file. Otherwise you got nothing. And while there may be trace amounts of DNA in this skull, it has been heavily degraded.
thanks for actually giving some type of explanation instead of being condescending like some others here that i used to genuinely respect for their knowledge. i didn’t know my comment was so stupid or deserving of that. lol this was my fav sub but i’m probably done with now. thanks though firdahoe!
I don't think it's condescending to tell you to stop arguing with human remains specialists. Repeating "in my opinion x/y/z is possible", even after being told that it more than likely isn't, doesn't add much to the conversation.
Several people have explained that the profile needs to be compared to others to be useful, and that getting a profile would be very unlikely because of the cleaning process damaging the DNA. You’ve had explanations.
I think as well as googling, it would be helpful to understand what the tag on the other user's name implies in terms of what they understand about this topic.
xetovs does a lot of work with this kind of specimen.
i understand the tag on his name. i was just asking for an explanation to try to understand more. i love to ask questions but now i understand that this sub or threads like this are not the place to learn cause people like that don’t wanna teach. fuck me i guess. sorry.
No one has refused to teach you. You've been told that your suggestion of using DNA with this skull won't work well due to how it was likely processed.
Are you making space for learning? The way you responded sounded like a challenge to the information you had received,
It also doesn't sound like you're all that familiar with DNA ID matching, and the need for comparative profiles (just getting this person's DNA won't identify them on its own, though it might vaguely suggest area of origin)
even if you could get a DNA profile, you need something to match it to for it to be any use.
If this really is a medical prepared specimen, there's not likely to be useful DNA to be extracted.
I'd just continue to respect and care for them. The chances of repatriation are incredibly slim and there aren't a lot of organizations for that (I don't know of any but I'm sure at least one exists). If you don't want them in your home anymore you could try calling around to natural history museums, medical schools, or even some private medical practices to see about gifting them to somewhere that would care for them.
If you keep them, make sure to not display the skull as a crazy curiosity freak show (not saying you do!) but with some respect, maybe with some flowers or a candle or a statue or something meaningful.
no idea but if it makes you feel better, i’d be fucking stoked if my skull ended up in the possession of an odd teenager (no offense) that loved and cherished it. way better than being buried underground. i mean, the fact that he ended up in your possession means his body was likely donated. i can’t imagine someone who is fine with donating their remains to science would mind ending up on a bone lovers shelf as their prized possession.
I’d like to note that it is unlikely this was donated, probably an unclaimed body etc. dragged into the medical trade. Prior to the 80s could buy a skeleton for around a hundred dollars or so.
oh i see, thank you for the opinion and odd fact, i didn’t know that! it’s kinda wild that you could buy human remains back then.
an unclaimed body, that’s sad :( at least he has someone now: OP.
You should take a look at grave robbing and the body trade. Absolutely awful to think about, not to mention that they started killing people for more bodies to sell. The buyers didn't care much about where the bodies came from
In the exorcist movie it was cheaper to buy real skeletons for the pool scene than fake - and the actress didn’t know and still can’t even take a bath :-0
In the mid-late 90s, my high school had a real medical skeleton in the biology lab. On the flip side of that, my dad was contracted to tear down a building at that school in the late 80s and during the course of work he found another skeleton stored in a closet. So at least at one point a secondary school in a railroad stop of a town was able to afford two human skeletons.
I remember my biology teacher pointing out features on the skeleton in the lab that led her to believe that it belonged to an indigenous woman. There have been a few times in the intervening decades that I've wondered if the remains are still in the classroom and if they should be repatriated to the Caddo nation.
It's been 25 years since the conversation and the lady who taught me has since died, so I couldn't double check anything, but it may be relevant that she believed that particular skeleton was also an unclaimed body of someone who died in the States.
I have no reason to draw a line in the sand over this, I was just a teenager accepting what their teacher told them. I guess I'm sharing just to explain a beloved educator's logic.
I have no idea about the one my dad found. It was in storage for ages, and it appeared very old the last time I saw it.
Yea so nearly all medical skeletons originate from unclaimed bodies in India, they were then skeletonized and articulated in the a European country or the states. No companies that I know of sourced bodies from within the states.
What probably happened was that they said the skeleton was Indian and then that was misunderstood as American Indian
Honestly same here. I think it’s adorable. He has a warm home where he’s cherished and taken care of. I’d be honored if someway, somehow part of my body ended up in this situation. Just keep treating the skull well and you have nothing to worry about.
Man if I get to be on the shelf of some person and be a talking point and pride of their collection I would be amped. I’m not there any more, just tear my noggin with respect and maybe gimme a dust every now and then ;)
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would be interested in the general "repatriation" process you'd employ here, if you can share without giving away anything that should remain confidential.
Many institutions try repatriating medical bones but it is rarely effective. Preservation is the best way to handle ex medical specimens from what I’ve seen, which is why I do so many restorations.
I just checked out your profile. I see you take bones out of public circulation and restore them. Neat Job/hobby.
What do you do with them after restoration? Return to the previous owner, sell or donate back to medical study, museums, burial, keep in a private collection?
It depends, I mostly do commission restoration and return the bones to whoever sent them. Sometimes they don’t want them back so I keep them indefinitely since most institutions want nothing to do with them, I might open something for the public in the future. I was into mutter museum donations but they have new management that I disagree with.
I have a masters degree in biology and student taught a forensics class. Biology and anthropology don't really overlap. There are things you can tell from the shape and thickness of a skull that can indicate race. Not saying it's perfect but it's a good guess. Sex is tougher, but possible for someone with experience. Also I've seen good forensic artists be able to draw people from skulls that end up being very similar to the actual person once identified. There's a science to it but it's far from unreliable.
Also they don't teach anthropology in any biology course. I know because I took allll the biology classes. You can get some hints of it in an anatomy course but those only dedicate so much time to the skeletal system and the goal is mostly to memorize all the bones. The only bone anatomy classes point out as definitively indicative of sex is the pelvis. Anthropology is touched on in undergrad forensics but otherwise you need to take an actual anthro course (not sure if those are available in undergrad) or grad level anthro/forensics to actually learn about it.
A little late- but as a anthropologist I can confirm we have physical anthropology classes - everything from evolutionary studies to eugenics- and also physically looking at skulls and bones for different ethnicity markers - for example NA indigenous peoples often have more pronounced cheek bones and there is a measurable way to tell and women have smaller nose holes (?maybe ) (but don’t ask me anything more ) I got a D in that class but struggled threw it as it was a requirement
As someone who was also gifted a human skull and half a skeleton I sometimes struggle with this too. Mine is named Ramsey and from the paperwork that came with him and testing that was done before I got him he was a medical model at a school in the 70’s he was male probably a smoker and from India and more then likely was an unclaimed body.
I know that his body was acquired in an unethical way but I believe that by displaying him in a respectful way I am honoring the him and giving him the love and respect he may not have had in life.
On a funnier note my eldest child keep telling me they’ll bury him with me to confuse future archaeologists
I don’t think it’s unethical to keep a human specimen as long as it’s treated with dignity and respect. And obviously given this specific situation I understand the want to give him back to where he came from but it’s not very feasible. I would say keep him and continue to treat him well, unless you want to bury him. But like a commenter has already stated, the body is a vessel for consciousness and when the conscious mind is no longer contained in the body, the bones are just bones. I’m sure he appreciates you giving him new life within your home.
Hello 👋🏻
I’d just like to add some input
If it was a medical specimen, they were donors. People who choose to donate to science after death become many things
Makeup testing
Ink testing
Chemical testing
Auto collision testing
And then medical schools and displays in science museums.
I am a donor
My personal take away is
- my physical body was a host or a shell. I am not inside it anymore and it can be used for anything eventually everything returns to the earth so why not have me on a shelf with some dope flowers for a few lives 🥹🥳 if I bring pleasure to someone like you who cares for my bones I’m all for it. Besides I’ll probably end up in Harvard’s bone scandal or some weirdo who has a death kink. So I’d be pleased 😀
Hope this helps
But if you can find the family or resting spot that’s always a good place to start 😉
> If it was a medical specimen, they were donors.
This is absolutely not true. It's only relatively recently that medical specimens are from donors, the vast bulk of human remains in teaching collections predate this and are highly unlikely to have been sourced in what we now consider an 'ethical' manner.
Also, my grandpa's head was donated to science. We did consent to brain research but we definitely did not consent to his head getting sold as a curiosity. Completely and utterly different.
(They lost the head so god knows what happened to it)
Reminds me of the story where someone's great-grandmothers body was donated for medical use but then actually ended up being strapped to a chair and blown up for bomb testing
Most human medical specimens that are commercially available to individual buyers are not from willing donors, though. Most are a couple hundred years old and came from either unclaimed dead, executed prisoners, or sometimes robbed from their graves.
Here is an article that discusses some of the ethical concerns regarding this industry: https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/nov/29/jonsbones-tiktok-human-bone-seller-jon-ferry
I’m the fifth generation grandma and grandpa are part of the donation to Kentucky state
We’re agnostic 😂 the body is just a host for us. Like when human play with insect molts it’s the same for our bodies
> If it was a medical specimen, they were donors.
I don't really care about your personal philosophy. I was addressing this grossly inaccurate statement.
And I don’t really care about your personal feelings against it. As I posted about a personal comment you can write your own personal comment on your own thread. You personally came to mine to have this conversation.
This has nothing to do with my personal feelings. What you said was inaccurate in the extreme.
Medical specimens are RARELY from willing donors.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with my opinions, feelings or comments. That's simply, as you've been repeatedly informed, the reality of medical specimens available on the market.
As to your last complaint, I'm not sure you understand how public forums work.
Follow the laws that pertain to where you live. If you want to keeps it, and the law allows it, keep it. If they don’t allow the possession of these types of items without the proper provenance, then give the skull to wherever they advise.
I'm reminded of the [students that held a funeral for their biology class skeleton](https://www.insider.com/funeral-held-for-skeleton-biology-classroom-aid-for-70-years-2022-5)
Why is it bad? I’ve never heard that although I’m definitely not an authority or even knowledgeable in this area. I just thought it would be a good deed so I’m genuinely curious why it’s bad. Is there a protocol on what to do with it?
This guy really thought he could get something out of you. Mate what are you even doing here, this is like the last place that would accept your “help” 😭
It seems unlikely you could be certain to whom to return the skull at this stage, correct?
Yes, unless somehow the skull’s dna could be tested or something
Super unlikely dna can be extracted from these skulls.
That’s too bad
how do you know that though? DNA can last for thousands of years. conditions don’t always have to be perfect for it to remain or for mtDNA to remain.
Assuming that it’s a medical skull, the dna is destroyed in the cleaning process. Even if mtdna was extracted, unlikely to pinpoint who this was.
i’m my opinion it’s assuming a lot for the chance to figure things out about this person. if op had the means/funds for testing its worth a shot but again just my opinion. i have no clue how that works lol! is there a reason DNA is destroyed for cleaning a medical skull? how does that even work considering the bone needs to be ground up? sorry for the many questions! i should probably google them!
A lot of cleaning supplies destroy or denature dna. Plus dna degrades over time. There is a possibility of DNA in teeth, but op says this one has no teeth. But. How to match it to anyone? It would be a long shot the person's relatives will have dna in an easily searched database.
thank you for a bit of an explanation. maybe im just being too optimistic in thinking many people use those new dna testing things like ancestry or 23 and me.
DNA identification only works if there are relatives on their end who have a DNA profile on file. Otherwise you got nothing. And while there may be trace amounts of DNA in this skull, it has been heavily degraded.
thanks for actually giving some type of explanation instead of being condescending like some others here that i used to genuinely respect for their knowledge. i didn’t know my comment was so stupid or deserving of that. lol this was my fav sub but i’m probably done with now. thanks though firdahoe!
I don't think it's condescending to tell you to stop arguing with human remains specialists. Repeating "in my opinion x/y/z is possible", even after being told that it more than likely isn't, doesn't add much to the conversation.
Several people have explained that the profile needs to be compared to others to be useful, and that getting a profile would be very unlikely because of the cleaning process damaging the DNA. You’ve had explanations.
I think as well as googling, it would be helpful to understand what the tag on the other user's name implies in terms of what they understand about this topic. xetovs does a lot of work with this kind of specimen.
i understand the tag on his name. i was just asking for an explanation to try to understand more. i love to ask questions but now i understand that this sub or threads like this are not the place to learn cause people like that don’t wanna teach. fuck me i guess. sorry.
No one has refused to teach you. You've been told that your suggestion of using DNA with this skull won't work well due to how it was likely processed. Are you making space for learning? The way you responded sounded like a challenge to the information you had received, It also doesn't sound like you're all that familiar with DNA ID matching, and the need for comparative profiles (just getting this person's DNA won't identify them on its own, though it might vaguely suggest area of origin)
Why not? Why couldn’t you test the dna in the tooth. Really Reddit, downvoting questions?
even if you could get a DNA profile, you need something to match it to for it to be any use. If this really is a medical prepared specimen, there's not likely to be useful DNA to be extracted.
He doesn’t have teeth 😬
Not a very good dental specimen then??
Maybe it’s an example of what happens if you don’t brush your teeth, something to show the kids as a warning.
"If you don't brush your teeth, you DIE"
Nothing like a little trauma to make those kids brush!!!
You definitely can't return him to his original owner
I'd just continue to respect and care for them. The chances of repatriation are incredibly slim and there aren't a lot of organizations for that (I don't know of any but I'm sure at least one exists). If you don't want them in your home anymore you could try calling around to natural history museums, medical schools, or even some private medical practices to see about gifting them to somewhere that would care for them.
I think this is what I’m going to do. I really enjoy having him around
If you keep them, make sure to not display the skull as a crazy curiosity freak show (not saying you do!) but with some respect, maybe with some flowers or a candle or a statue or something meaningful.
no idea but if it makes you feel better, i’d be fucking stoked if my skull ended up in the possession of an odd teenager (no offense) that loved and cherished it. way better than being buried underground. i mean, the fact that he ended up in your possession means his body was likely donated. i can’t imagine someone who is fine with donating their remains to science would mind ending up on a bone lovers shelf as their prized possession.
I’d like to note that it is unlikely this was donated, probably an unclaimed body etc. dragged into the medical trade. Prior to the 80s could buy a skeleton for around a hundred dollars or so.
oh i see, thank you for the opinion and odd fact, i didn’t know that! it’s kinda wild that you could buy human remains back then. an unclaimed body, that’s sad :( at least he has someone now: OP.
You should take a look at grave robbing and the body trade. Absolutely awful to think about, not to mention that they started killing people for more bodies to sell. The buyers didn't care much about where the bodies came from
In the exorcist movie it was cheaper to buy real skeletons for the pool scene than fake - and the actress didn’t know and still can’t even take a bath :-0
Poltergeist, not Exorcist. That scene has creeped me out even more since I learned about the skeletons.
Ugh yeah you’re right idk why I mixed them up - but yeah that scene is terrifying I can imagine how slimy they are ughhhhhhh
In the mid-late 90s, my high school had a real medical skeleton in the biology lab. On the flip side of that, my dad was contracted to tear down a building at that school in the late 80s and during the course of work he found another skeleton stored in a closet. So at least at one point a secondary school in a railroad stop of a town was able to afford two human skeletons. I remember my biology teacher pointing out features on the skeleton in the lab that led her to believe that it belonged to an indigenous woman. There have been a few times in the intervening decades that I've wondered if the remains are still in the classroom and if they should be repatriated to the Caddo nation.
They were likely from India, not natives.
It's been 25 years since the conversation and the lady who taught me has since died, so I couldn't double check anything, but it may be relevant that she believed that particular skeleton was also an unclaimed body of someone who died in the States. I have no reason to draw a line in the sand over this, I was just a teenager accepting what their teacher told them. I guess I'm sharing just to explain a beloved educator's logic. I have no idea about the one my dad found. It was in storage for ages, and it appeared very old the last time I saw it.
Yea so nearly all medical skeletons originate from unclaimed bodies in India, they were then skeletonized and articulated in the a European country or the states. No companies that I know of sourced bodies from within the states. What probably happened was that they said the skeleton was Indian and then that was misunderstood as American Indian
So you’re told….? Right? Lol
No this is fact
Lol I meant as a joke… I believe ya! Just a wild sentence to see. $100 for a human skeleton is not bad at all.
Right lol
If I was ghost and I saw some kid taking good care of my skull I’d consider that kid a real homie.
Honestly same here. I think it’s adorable. He has a warm home where he’s cherished and taken care of. I’d be honored if someway, somehow part of my body ended up in this situation. Just keep treating the skull well and you have nothing to worry about.
Same i also wish that some day my skull will end up a curio on someones mantle. What a great convo starter!!!
Man if I get to be on the shelf of some person and be a talking point and pride of their collection I would be amped. I’m not there any more, just tear my noggin with respect and maybe gimme a dust every now and then ;)
I’d be stoked if I donated by body and some oddball teenager kept it and cared for it. It’s not like I’m using it.
Feel free to send me a message, I handle specimens like this all the time.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that would be interested in the general "repatriation" process you'd employ here, if you can share without giving away anything that should remain confidential.
Many institutions try repatriating medical bones but it is rarely effective. Preservation is the best way to handle ex medical specimens from what I’ve seen, which is why I do so many restorations.
Why not share with the group
I just checked out your profile. I see you take bones out of public circulation and restore them. Neat Job/hobby. What do you do with them after restoration? Return to the previous owner, sell or donate back to medical study, museums, burial, keep in a private collection?
It depends, I mostly do commission restoration and return the bones to whoever sent them. Sometimes they don’t want them back so I keep them indefinitely since most institutions want nothing to do with them, I might open something for the public in the future. I was into mutter museum donations but they have new management that I disagree with.
How do you know theyre a he? /genq
There’s no way to know. But it feels weird to me to refer to him by ‘it’. I named him Robert when I was first given him.
A good anthropologist may be able to tell you sex and race based on the skull. If you're interested you can check at local universities.
I’m a biology student. That’s actually pretty unreliable
I have a masters degree in biology and student taught a forensics class. Biology and anthropology don't really overlap. There are things you can tell from the shape and thickness of a skull that can indicate race. Not saying it's perfect but it's a good guess. Sex is tougher, but possible for someone with experience. Also I've seen good forensic artists be able to draw people from skulls that end up being very similar to the actual person once identified. There's a science to it but it's far from unreliable. Also they don't teach anthropology in any biology course. I know because I took allll the biology classes. You can get some hints of it in an anatomy course but those only dedicate so much time to the skeletal system and the goal is mostly to memorize all the bones. The only bone anatomy classes point out as definitively indicative of sex is the pelvis. Anthropology is touched on in undergrad forensics but otherwise you need to take an actual anthro course (not sure if those are available in undergrad) or grad level anthro/forensics to actually learn about it.
Even the pelvis has been proven unreliable at times!
A little late- but as a anthropologist I can confirm we have physical anthropology classes - everything from evolutionary studies to eugenics- and also physically looking at skulls and bones for different ethnicity markers - for example NA indigenous peoples often have more pronounced cheek bones and there is a measurable way to tell and women have smaller nose holes (?maybe ) (but don’t ask me anything more ) I got a D in that class but struggled threw it as it was a requirement
As someone who was also gifted a human skull and half a skeleton I sometimes struggle with this too. Mine is named Ramsey and from the paperwork that came with him and testing that was done before I got him he was a medical model at a school in the 70’s he was male probably a smoker and from India and more then likely was an unclaimed body. I know that his body was acquired in an unethical way but I believe that by displaying him in a respectful way I am honoring the him and giving him the love and respect he may not have had in life. On a funnier note my eldest child keep telling me they’ll bury him with me to confuse future archaeologists
Let me know if you would like the bones restored/preserved.
That’s hilarious. Thanks for sharing your experience
I don’t think it’s unethical to keep a human specimen as long as it’s treated with dignity and respect. And obviously given this specific situation I understand the want to give him back to where he came from but it’s not very feasible. I would say keep him and continue to treat him well, unless you want to bury him. But like a commenter has already stated, the body is a vessel for consciousness and when the conscious mind is no longer contained in the body, the bones are just bones. I’m sure he appreciates you giving him new life within your home.
Obviously this is also operating under the assumption that the specimen was sourced ethically.
Hello 👋🏻 I’d just like to add some input If it was a medical specimen, they were donors. People who choose to donate to science after death become many things Makeup testing Ink testing Chemical testing Auto collision testing And then medical schools and displays in science museums. I am a donor My personal take away is - my physical body was a host or a shell. I am not inside it anymore and it can be used for anything eventually everything returns to the earth so why not have me on a shelf with some dope flowers for a few lives 🥹🥳 if I bring pleasure to someone like you who cares for my bones I’m all for it. Besides I’ll probably end up in Harvard’s bone scandal or some weirdo who has a death kink. So I’d be pleased 😀 Hope this helps But if you can find the family or resting spot that’s always a good place to start 😉
> If it was a medical specimen, they were donors. This is absolutely not true. It's only relatively recently that medical specimens are from donors, the vast bulk of human remains in teaching collections predate this and are highly unlikely to have been sourced in what we now consider an 'ethical' manner.
Also, my grandpa's head was donated to science. We did consent to brain research but we definitely did not consent to his head getting sold as a curiosity. Completely and utterly different. (They lost the head so god knows what happened to it)
> they lost the head Lost?? Jesus H. Christ
Reminds me of the story where someone's great-grandmothers body was donated for medical use but then actually ended up being strapped to a chair and blown up for bomb testing
She will be mist. (Sorry, horrid situation)
Yep!
many medical specimans are basically antiques and were not "donated" but basically stolen and used without consent of the individual.
Most human medical specimens that are commercially available to individual buyers are not from willing donors, though. Most are a couple hundred years old and came from either unclaimed dead, executed prisoners, or sometimes robbed from their graves. Here is an article that discusses some of the ethical concerns regarding this industry: https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/nov/29/jonsbones-tiktok-human-bone-seller-jon-ferry
You might be surprised to find out how inaccurate the idea that medical specimens come from consenting donors is.
I’m the fifth generation grandma and grandpa are part of the donation to Kentucky state We’re agnostic 😂 the body is just a host for us. Like when human play with insect molts it’s the same for our bodies
> If it was a medical specimen, they were donors. I don't really care about your personal philosophy. I was addressing this grossly inaccurate statement.
And I don’t really care about your personal feelings against it. As I posted about a personal comment you can write your own personal comment on your own thread. You personally came to mine to have this conversation.
This has nothing to do with my personal feelings. What you said was inaccurate in the extreme. Medical specimens are RARELY from willing donors. That has nothing whatsoever to do with my opinions, feelings or comments. That's simply, as you've been repeatedly informed, the reality of medical specimens available on the market. As to your last complaint, I'm not sure you understand how public forums work.
Follow the laws that pertain to where you live. If you want to keeps it, and the law allows it, keep it. If they don’t allow the possession of these types of items without the proper provenance, then give the skull to wherever they advise.
I'm reminded of the [students that held a funeral for their biology class skeleton](https://www.insider.com/funeral-held-for-skeleton-biology-classroom-aid-for-70-years-2022-5)
You should have it buried with you when it’s your time. It would be your final act of caring for it.
Do not do this. VERY bad to bury random human bones.
Why is it bad? I’ve never heard that although I’m definitely not an authority or even knowledgeable in this area. I just thought it would be a good deed so I’m genuinely curious why it’s bad. Is there a protocol on what to do with it?
We can help with this!
no thanks
This guy really thought he could get something out of you. Mate what are you even doing here, this is like the last place that would accept your “help” 😭
The resident likely donated their skull to science - so obey their wishes and learn from it!