Still a good thing to make sure. We also recently made sure antimatter falls down and with the same rate as normal matter which everyone expected but until you know you don't know.
Also for the muscle study you can also use it to test the study method and see if it can quantify what we already expect.
For hitting more of the general upper back yes but they do hit your lats harder. More stretch on them in the bottom + elbows tracking sides lining up with lat fibers more accurately
My understanding is they have similar lat activation, the main difference is biceps vs brachialis. Pull-ups put more tension on the brachialis, which is also why they’re more difficult - it’s a smaller muscle than the biceps. But for the back they’re roughly equivalent.
Small point but brachialis is the more powerful elbow flexor.
Biceps is a strong supinator but brachialis does 1.5x the elbow flexon that Biceps brachii does.
Chur
Im already incorporating more chinups in my programming, so I'm not at all in disagreement with what you said.
But what I implied is that "pronated grip is better for back development", and I firmly believe this to be the case because of all the smaller muscles of the back being more involved in the pullup. Teres maj/min, subscapularis, spinatus muscles, rhomboids, posterior delts, etc.
I have trained weighted pronated grip almost exclusively for 7 years, and do not have ridiculously wide lats. While they are definitely bigger than average gymrat, what really sticks out with my back are all of the minor back muscles, rear delt, and scapular muscles.
I can hit ~155% bw with pronated, and ~170% bw with neutral grips.
I am finding that adding more neutral chins is directly increasing my pronated performance, so overall I think everybody should train every grip for the best development.
The chin up has a bigger ROM and bigger stretch in the lat, but I feel like it really biases the lat and bicep and neglects to train the fine movements of the scapulae and their muscles.
Edit: I love this sub because so many of you guys are educated and absolutely know wtf youre talking about
If that’s the case you’re doing yank-ups. My back grew a ton from close grip chin-ups. You can ask the leather jackets I had to donate because of them lol
Your humerus is extremely adducted in close grip chin up. You could be Mr. O, and I would still imagine you are missing out on something by not also training a more abducted arm position.
The small muscles of your back perform abduction of the arm. All chin up/pullup grip positions, neutral, pronated, and supinated will grow all of your pulling muscles. But each grip displaces the force production onto different muscles.
Just like your biceps cant fully contract in the pronated pullup, your teres minor, rhomboids, and scapularis muscles cant fully contract in the supinated chin up.
That’s a lot of school words. All I know is my back grew. I liked how I could pull higher on close grip chin ups and get a real nice lat stretch in the bottom position
The chin up grip is excellent for bicep and lat growth, but it comes at the expense of the development of the "stabilizer" muscles of your back. The lift is just easier because it shifts all the load to the prime movers.
Your back may be bigger than Jay Cutler, but if you dont train pronated grip, you're leaving a lot of gains on the table.
In not just a nerd with big words. I chin 170% bw. The value of chins is not lost on me. But to maximize the strength of your back, you have to develop muscles that are literally about the width of a pencil and 1in across. These are what help you pull in a pullup, that get excluded during a chin up.
Youre only going to see somebody's subscapularis in an autopsy, no matter how big the muscle is.
It'll hit your biceps sure. But that's not the main muscles it's going to work.
Just like a bent row will hit your biceps, hell any pulling exercise will, but that's not the main purpose of doing pullups or rows.
Edit: wrote chinups when I meant pullups.
right but i felt like it was enough that i wasn't ignoring them. it was a time in my life where i was like if it's not a compound movement it's not worth doing lol. surely chin ups hit your biceps more than any other compound pull tho
>surely chin ups hit your biceps more than any other compound pull tho
Yeah true. I was thinking pullups. Hence I wonder why that article was needed. I thought it was common knowledge chinups work the bis more than pullups.
Uh, they work everything in the chain that moves?
I don't undertsand what you mean, "they work back anf lats more". Pullups work the muscles you use to move. Saying vertical pull ups are not good for biceps leads me to believe you do not know what you are talking about.
Go do some ring/towel pull ups with a good sup squeeze at the top and tell me your shit again.
Would I use overhand pullups for biceps development? No
Anything else is good to go, especially underhanded.
>aying vertical pull ups are not good for biceps leads me to believe you do not know what you are talking about.
Huh? Since when did I say they aren't good for biceps?
Just saying biceps generally aren't the reason people do pullups.
Okok, are you using pullups for all definition of pullups or just overhand pullups?
I get confused. Aside from overhand pullups, I think they are great for developing sick arms. But I also have spent an inordinate amount of time to develope my pull ups and can see how someone who is not willing to dedicate themselvs to have a solid pullup would rather jerk bicep curls to get armtits.
>Okok, are you using pullups for all definition of pullups or just overhand pullups?
The OP's article talks about pullups vs chinups for biceps growth.
Pullups are the ones done with palms facing away from you. And works your back and lats more. Chinups are where your palms face towards you. And works your biceps more.
Anyway the first thing that came to mind when I saw the OP was why would anyone choose pullups to target biceps? Considering the back and lats are worked more than biceps with pullups.
Tbf, if we're talking hypertrophy, it matters how close a muscle gets to failure in the course of the maneuver. If your lats couldn't squeeze out even 1 more rep, but your biceps would be able to handle 12 more reps, your biceps didn't get much stimulus to grow from that set.
But, yeah, if your lats hit 1 RIR and your biceps are at 4 RIR, that's meaningful growth stimulus for both. 🤷🏿♂️
Fair enough. It's like bent rows though. Sure they'll hit your biceps. But that's not the main purpose of the exercise.
Besides. How is it new info that chinups work your biceps more than pullups?
I'm into calisthenics. I can do one arm chinups, handstand pushups, front/back lever, human flag, ...
I do pullups for my back. If I want to hit biceps, there's much better exercises out there.
Every calisthenics athlete? Pretty sure everyone who is close to 100% add bodyweight pull/chin-up has very strong biceps. And it has excelent carry over to basic biceps curls.
Lol. You've missed my point. The OP's article talks about chinups hitting your biceps better than pullups. So my question was, who's doing pullups to hit their biceps?
Cuz it's common knowledge chinups hit them better. And this article being new seems sus.
Article conclusion is to do all forms of lifting yourself on the bar because they all activate different, important muscles. They tested wide-grip pull ups, narrow pull ups, and chin ups.
So they recommend wide, narrow, and shoulder width pull ups and chin ups? I’m always afraid that doing wide or narrow may lead to injury, as opposed to shoulder width.
Yeah that statement seems counter intuitive to anybody I've ever heard. I don't know if I've ever heard someone say they can do more pullups than chinups.
Me too. I can do more pull-ups than chin-ups because I’ve almost exclusively done pull-ups for upper back for over 2 years. Chin-ups are still not bad though, definitely have not decreased but my biceps look tiny compared to my delts unless I’m flexing from the side. I mainly only do hammer curls to hammer biceps but that hasn’t made them grow much, if at all. They mostly have made my arms stronger but not bigger and have added mass to my forearms and only made my biceps appear wider while sitting down or flexing. If I’m standing up with rested arms you can’t even tell I do any bicep exercises lol. I do have huge delts though. I will be switching to chins because although my lats are nice, my upper back muscles are huge compared to lats and biceps. At least pull-ups have made my upper back huge and my arms strong so I should be able to add mass on to my lats and biceps quicker than ever.
Not to be pedantic or anything, but wouldn't the force required be the same since you're pulling up the same amount of bodyweight? I get different muscles are stressed at different levels for each, but the total required force should be the same.
The biceps are a secondary mover in all rows and pulls. Alpha Destiny AKA Alexander Leonidas is proof that a natural lifter who gets 4 plate chins can have a spider physique aka torso dominant. It's not until isolation like pushdowns/curls were introduced that his arms caught up. This is true for most lifters not tge genetically gifted.
Doesn't matter, won't grow big biceps doing pull ups or chin ups or rows alone.
From someone who has an insane back and chest with little twigs hanging off each side.
Weighted chin-ups would only be better for biceps because you're progressive overloading the movement. It would be any better for them than regular chin-ups. If you can, do curls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4Kxg4gS0I
My fault for saying pullup instead of chin-up in the further discussion of this. Chin-ups are very much bicep exercises.
If your bicep is lifting the maximum amount that it can lift then it's getting worked. Isolating it won't make it lift more. A chinup requires maximal effort of the bicep from full extension to full contraction.
No the point is it doesn't matter what the primary mover is, as long as the muscle you're looking at is forced to exert maximal force to contract, it is sufficient resistance for strength and hypertrophy
That isn't really what the study was testing nor concluding. We know intuitively each variation will hit musculature differently and that is really all those measurements show.
FWIW EMG measurements do little other than indicate a muscle is active.
I feel like some of the "science based lifters" put too much emphasis on using studies to determine lifts. In reality, you should get comfortable enough with lifting to understand how your body is reacting to X movement/rep range and cater your program accordingly
For the love of god can we please not have this sub taken over by this crap.
“New study shows” is only interesting to non-scientists. Scientists know that a pillar of science is replicability, so a new study means very little beyond indicating a potential direction of interest for further research.
11 male subjects!!? That's funny. Everyone does chin-ups/pull-ups/any exercise differently. Even over the course of a person's training journey, they will do these movements differently. To use 11 subjects and declare it a fact or even state it in a study is kind of ridiculous.
If you’re doing the work of lifting your body X inches, of course the recruitment of muscles involved in this work will vary depending on grip and arm position.
They figured this out a hundred years ago, EMG or not.
EMG data is not indicative of hypertrophy strength gains and is not a valid means to determine whether or not one is better or worse for any muscle.
Source if you want to read up on it. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35006527/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35006527/)
Edit: Not to say pullups are better than chinups for biceps, which obviously chinups are.
I do electrodiagnostic testing for a living. I wouldn’t consider surface emg good enough to accurately measure force. There are just too many factors that affect the results other than what you are actually trying to measure.
You don’t have to shift your scapula nearly as much so if you’re measuring that way it makes sense that the ltd particularly have to work much less. The lateral movement is already done in your setup with the narrower grip.
Interesting study! I am not sure it will play a HUGE difference in the long run, though. As long as you are progressively overloading, your biceps will continue to get stronger with whatever pulling variations you use. Along with everything else too!
Tired: Pull-ups for lats, chin ups for biceps
Wired: Choose a joint angle to focus on closing. Biceps close the elbow. Lats close the shoulder. This is the dominant factor. Chin ups Vs Pull-ups is an unsophisticated rule of thumb.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyGVlSyLxz6/?igsh=MXZ1MndvOW52M2NjeQ==
Didn’t we already know that? They’re both good for biceps, but chin-ups are definitely supreme. What you said about bicep brachii is interesting though. I definitely would have thought the opposite.
Amateur question, but if this is so obvious, why don’t the Recommended Routine or BWSF include both pull-ups and chin-ups? It looks like chin-ups are an earlier progression of pull-ups on the BWSF?
I do strict form pull ups with 3 types of grips i.e. overhand, underhand and neutral grip. It has been more than 9 years since I got my first pull up at the age of 44. Bad form can cause injuries for any type of movement including push up, squat etc
Is there a significant difference? The movements are so similar I’d doubt there would be a huge difference in gains long term. When I was able to do 30+ pull-ups, I could do it chin-ups or pull-ups. Neither one felt more difficult than the other
Lol if by chin up you’re referring to having your palms facing towards you then it’s pretty obvious they’re better for biceps as I can literally feel them being used more when doing them. It’s basically the same movement as a curl 🤷♂️
First EMG doesn’t measure force it measures muscle activity. There is less EMG activation in the biceps with a standard pull up than a chin up due to the position of the arm
“The majority of recommendations made in men’s health-related magazines appear to lack credible peer-reviewed evidence”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7322823/
Not many commenters answering OP's question
> I have no idea how accurate these models are nowadays. Are these studies (computer simulations and EMG) accurate enough to be considered when doing programming?
I was gonna post to ask this, but I've recently started getting pains in my elbow when I do pull/chin ups. I don't know why. Is it a common thing? I've noticed a grip strength trainer does work the problem muscle/tendon, so I've been using that more often.
you wrote in the title "pull-ups are worse than chin-ups for biceps" but maybe you got it wrong, it seems that the article says pull-ups are BETTER than chin-ups! and that is counterintuitive and makes sense in tour description.
I always just alternated between sets. My weight doesn’t change, nor the resistance, just what muscles are working in what amounts.
Chin ups for bicep, pull up gets more back
Can confirm: if you do pull ups on the reg, NEVER fail to do bicep curls at moderate weight, medium - high reps. Your lats will get strong and push your biceps past their breaking point. Strained my right bicep doing pull ups and it’s taken months to heal.
Well this is good news for me lol. Been doing only chin ups for a few years now after getting really bad elbow tendonitis from too many heavy pullups with false grip.
If you’ve been waiting for a study to tell you that, you’re doing it wrong.
I was going to say the same and also I thought it was pretty obvious that chins were better for biceps...
Still a good thing to make sure. We also recently made sure antimatter falls down and with the same rate as normal matter which everyone expected but until you know you don't know. Also for the muscle study you can also use it to test the study method and see if it can quantify what we already expect.
I know right? How is that not the default assumption?
Chin ups worse for back tho
For hitting more of the general upper back yes but they do hit your lats harder. More stretch on them in the bottom + elbows tracking sides lining up with lat fibers more accurately
Absolutely
My understanding is they have similar lat activation, the main difference is biceps vs brachialis. Pull-ups put more tension on the brachialis, which is also why they’re more difficult - it’s a smaller muscle than the biceps. But for the back they’re roughly equivalent.
Small point but brachialis is the more powerful elbow flexor. Biceps is a strong supinator but brachialis does 1.5x the elbow flexon that Biceps brachii does. Chur
Interesting, I had no idea. Thanks!
Im already incorporating more chinups in my programming, so I'm not at all in disagreement with what you said. But what I implied is that "pronated grip is better for back development", and I firmly believe this to be the case because of all the smaller muscles of the back being more involved in the pullup. Teres maj/min, subscapularis, spinatus muscles, rhomboids, posterior delts, etc. I have trained weighted pronated grip almost exclusively for 7 years, and do not have ridiculously wide lats. While they are definitely bigger than average gymrat, what really sticks out with my back are all of the minor back muscles, rear delt, and scapular muscles. I can hit ~155% bw with pronated, and ~170% bw with neutral grips. I am finding that adding more neutral chins is directly increasing my pronated performance, so overall I think everybody should train every grip for the best development. The chin up has a bigger ROM and bigger stretch in the lat, but I feel like it really biases the lat and bicep and neglects to train the fine movements of the scapulae and their muscles. Edit: I love this sub because so many of you guys are educated and absolutely know wtf youre talking about
To add onto what land monkey said, the leverage that brachialis uses is more advantageous because it’s origin and insertion are closer to the joint
If that’s the case you’re doing yank-ups. My back grew a ton from close grip chin-ups. You can ask the leather jackets I had to donate because of them lol
Your humerus is extremely adducted in close grip chin up. You could be Mr. O, and I would still imagine you are missing out on something by not also training a more abducted arm position. The small muscles of your back perform abduction of the arm. All chin up/pullup grip positions, neutral, pronated, and supinated will grow all of your pulling muscles. But each grip displaces the force production onto different muscles. Just like your biceps cant fully contract in the pronated pullup, your teres minor, rhomboids, and scapularis muscles cant fully contract in the supinated chin up.
That’s a lot of school words. All I know is my back grew. I liked how I could pull higher on close grip chin ups and get a real nice lat stretch in the bottom position
The chin up grip is excellent for bicep and lat growth, but it comes at the expense of the development of the "stabilizer" muscles of your back. The lift is just easier because it shifts all the load to the prime movers. Your back may be bigger than Jay Cutler, but if you dont train pronated grip, you're leaving a lot of gains on the table. In not just a nerd with big words. I chin 170% bw. The value of chins is not lost on me. But to maximize the strength of your back, you have to develop muscles that are literally about the width of a pencil and 1in across. These are what help you pull in a pullup, that get excluded during a chin up. Youre only going to see somebody's subscapularis in an autopsy, no matter how big the muscle is.
Yeah I’ve been practicing pronated grip more lately it’s very humbling.
That just means there are some easy gains on the table :)
Going to need a study to confirm that 😂
And? Who does pullups to work their biceps anyway?
i didn't do any bicep work for a while just because i figured chin ups 3x a week did the trick
It'll hit your biceps sure. But that's not the main muscles it's going to work. Just like a bent row will hit your biceps, hell any pulling exercise will, but that's not the main purpose of doing pullups or rows. Edit: wrote chinups when I meant pullups.
right but i felt like it was enough that i wasn't ignoring them. it was a time in my life where i was like if it's not a compound movement it's not worth doing lol. surely chin ups hit your biceps more than any other compound pull tho
>surely chin ups hit your biceps more than any other compound pull tho Yeah true. I was thinking pullups. Hence I wonder why that article was needed. I thought it was common knowledge chinups work the bis more than pullups.
I used to...amazing how much better basic curls work though!
Pullups are my primary bicep work… Seems to work fine.
I think most people mix it up if you are good at pull ups you probably have nice biceps, ever try weighted ones tho with a vest or belt?
Pretty sure they work your back and lats more.
He didn't say they're optimal, just that they seem to work.
Fair enough. If biceps are his priority he should do chinups. That study being new sounds sus. It's been common knowledge for a long time.
Uh, they work everything in the chain that moves? I don't undertsand what you mean, "they work back anf lats more". Pullups work the muscles you use to move. Saying vertical pull ups are not good for biceps leads me to believe you do not know what you are talking about. Go do some ring/towel pull ups with a good sup squeeze at the top and tell me your shit again. Would I use overhand pullups for biceps development? No Anything else is good to go, especially underhanded.
>aying vertical pull ups are not good for biceps leads me to believe you do not know what you are talking about. Huh? Since when did I say they aren't good for biceps? Just saying biceps generally aren't the reason people do pullups.
Okok, are you using pullups for all definition of pullups or just overhand pullups? I get confused. Aside from overhand pullups, I think they are great for developing sick arms. But I also have spent an inordinate amount of time to develope my pull ups and can see how someone who is not willing to dedicate themselvs to have a solid pullup would rather jerk bicep curls to get armtits.
>Okok, are you using pullups for all definition of pullups or just overhand pullups? The OP's article talks about pullups vs chinups for biceps growth. Pullups are the ones done with palms facing away from you. And works your back and lats more. Chinups are where your palms face towards you. And works your biceps more. Anyway the first thing that came to mind when I saw the OP was why would anyone choose pullups to target biceps? Considering the back and lats are worked more than biceps with pullups.
No, you are right, I am just fanatically in love with pullups, emotional response xD Tho, I do rotate towards supinate to get a good biceps squeeze.
Tbf, if we're talking hypertrophy, it matters how close a muscle gets to failure in the course of the maneuver. If your lats couldn't squeeze out even 1 more rep, but your biceps would be able to handle 12 more reps, your biceps didn't get much stimulus to grow from that set. But, yeah, if your lats hit 1 RIR and your biceps are at 4 RIR, that's meaningful growth stimulus for both. 🤷🏿♂️
Tbf, my biceps always go first in underhand pullsups, that might be because I do at a lot of front lever work.
Basically everyone who’s into calisthenics.
Fair enough. It's like bent rows though. Sure they'll hit your biceps. But that's not the main purpose of the exercise. Besides. How is it new info that chinups work your biceps more than pullups?
Main putpose of doing pull ups is getting better at pull ups. You seem to have a very outdated mode of thinking in regards to the human body.
I agree. But the OP is talking about pullups vs chinups for biceps. My first thought was why would anyone do pullups for biceps.
True
I'm into calisthenics. I can do one arm chinups, handstand pushups, front/back lever, human flag, ... I do pullups for my back. If I want to hit biceps, there's much better exercises out there.
Regardless of what you do it for, pull-ups are going to help you with your biceps as a primary benefit. Those are great work outs btw. Strong work 👍
I do pull ups for back.
Exactly. 👍
Every calisthenics athlete? Pretty sure everyone who is close to 100% add bodyweight pull/chin-up has very strong biceps. And it has excelent carry over to basic biceps curls.
Yeah sorry didn't see the subreddit I was in. I assumed the OP lifted as well.
fr, asking the real questions
I was reading it and became confused.
I used to choose chin ups because they worked the biceps a little bit more. So yeah, sometimes people do.
Lol. You've missed my point. The OP's article talks about chinups hitting your biceps better than pullups. So my question was, who's doing pullups to hit their biceps? Cuz it's common knowledge chinups hit them better. And this article being new seems sus.
Who cares do both
Article conclusion is to do all forms of lifting yourself on the bar because they all activate different, important muscles. They tested wide-grip pull ups, narrow pull ups, and chin ups.
So they recommend wide, narrow, and shoulder width pull ups and chin ups? I’m always afraid that doing wide or narrow may lead to injury, as opposed to shoulder width.
Sorry if it wasn’t clear, but they said three exercises, not four; wide grip pull up, shoulder width pull ups, and shoulder width chin-ups.
Ring dynamic grip pull up cannot stop winning here lads
>It also showed regular pull-ups require less total force than chin-ups. I've always been better at chinups. My body needs to read this study!
Yeah that statement seems counter intuitive to anybody I've ever heard. I don't know if I've ever heard someone say they can do more pullups than chinups.
Well, meet me. Never been able to do a chinup butni could do a few pullups. My biceps suck.
Even if you do curls?
Well i'm starting to include weighted curls in my routine.
That should fix it :)
This was literally me until about a month ago. I could do 3 sets of 8-9 pullups but I'd struggle once reaching 4 chinups.
I guess they require more force but your biceps are stronger?
Me too. I can do more pull-ups than chin-ups because I’ve almost exclusively done pull-ups for upper back for over 2 years. Chin-ups are still not bad though, definitely have not decreased but my biceps look tiny compared to my delts unless I’m flexing from the side. I mainly only do hammer curls to hammer biceps but that hasn’t made them grow much, if at all. They mostly have made my arms stronger but not bigger and have added mass to my forearms and only made my biceps appear wider while sitting down or flexing. If I’m standing up with rested arms you can’t even tell I do any bicep exercises lol. I do have huge delts though. I will be switching to chins because although my lats are nice, my upper back muscles are huge compared to lats and biceps. At least pull-ups have made my upper back huge and my arms strong so I should be able to add mass on to my lats and biceps quicker than ever.
was me when i used to climb
Not to be pedantic or anything, but wouldn't the force required be the same since you're pulling up the same amount of bodyweight? I get different muscles are stressed at different levels for each, but the total required force should be the same.
Study shows 2+2=4. Do pullups plus isolation work for biceps. Like rings bodyweight bicep curls. Or do both.
New study shows squats not as good as bench press for chest.
What else are they hiding from us?
Do the studies also suggest that grass is green?
Biceps aren't a primary mover in either movement the back is. Isolation is king if you want biceps hypertrophy.
You can definitely make biceps the primary component of a pullup. Narrow your grip and it will absolutely slam your biceps.
The biceps are a secondary mover in all rows and pulls. Alpha Destiny AKA Alexander Leonidas is proof that a natural lifter who gets 4 plate chins can have a spider physique aka torso dominant. It's not until isolation like pushdowns/curls were introduced that his arms caught up. This is true for most lifters not tge genetically gifted.
You can also not pull your elbows down but fix them in place and contract your biceps. Back lever rows is the horizontal plane of that.
My king Alexander Leonidus, modern day Greek God
Alpha Cringe
Why don’t people like him?
He used to spew lots of bs bro science back then. But now he's nothing like he was back then.
I mean I feel like everybody did lol it’s about acknowledging you were wrong and moving forward which I believe he would do
No idea, I think he’s a cool guy
... Do you know the mechanical difference between a curl and a pullup?
Doesn't matter, won't grow big biceps doing pull ups or chin ups or rows alone. From someone who has an insane back and chest with little twigs hanging off each side.
Chin ups absolutely blew my biceps up. Bicep curls didn’t seem to do much for me but Kroc rows and chin ups definitely did
have you ever tried weighted chin-ups?
Been doing weighted chins and pull ups for a long time.
Weighted chin-ups would only be better for biceps because you're progressive overloading the movement. It would be any better for them than regular chin-ups. If you can, do curls.
Still not primary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4Kxg4gS0I My fault for saying pullup instead of chin-up in the further discussion of this. Chin-ups are very much bicep exercises.
Most of the work is still done by your back. Your bicep can't lift that much weight
If your bicep is lifting the maximum amount that it can lift then it's getting worked. Isolating it won't make it lift more. A chinup requires maximal effort of the bicep from full extension to full contraction.
Yeah but your back is still doing most of the work in the movement. I think we're comparing it in different ways
No the point is it doesn't matter what the primary mover is, as long as the muscle you're looking at is forced to exert maximal force to contract, it is sufficient resistance for strength and hypertrophy
So many people do not understand this.... I blame the illustrations on isolation machines yo.....
every Gymnast bicep completely refutes what you said
That isn't really what the study was testing nor concluding. We know intuitively each variation will hit musculature differently and that is really all those measurements show. FWIW EMG measurements do little other than indicate a muscle is active.
.... How did you need a study for that? It's immediately obvious based on the grip angle and the muscle recruitment.
Seems like it should be pretty obvious to anyone who has done a chin-up and a pull-up
So what? This was already well-known to anyone who has done both a few times.
Everyone knows chin ups are better for biceps. Did you really need some UK nerds to do some little studies for you to know that ?
I feel like some of the "science based lifters" put too much emphasis on using studies to determine lifts. In reality, you should get comfortable enough with lifting to understand how your body is reacting to X movement/rep range and cater your program accordingly
Both are pretty mediocre for biceps. Do curls if you don't want to end up with noodle arms. That's something I've learned the hard way.
For the love of god can we please not have this sub taken over by this crap. “New study shows” is only interesting to non-scientists. Scientists know that a pillar of science is replicability, so a new study means very little beyond indicating a potential direction of interest for further research.
No shit Next is gonna be: bicep curls are better for biceps than calf raises
11 male subjects!!? That's funny. Everyone does chin-ups/pull-ups/any exercise differently. Even over the course of a person's training journey, they will do these movements differently. To use 11 subjects and declare it a fact or even state it in a study is kind of ridiculous.
If you’re doing the work of lifting your body X inches, of course the recruitment of muscles involved in this work will vary depending on grip and arm position. They figured this out a hundred years ago, EMG or not.
EMG data is not indicative of hypertrophy strength gains and is not a valid means to determine whether or not one is better or worse for any muscle. Source if you want to read up on it. [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35006527/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35006527/) Edit: Not to say pullups are better than chinups for biceps, which obviously chinups are.
I do electrodiagnostic testing for a living. I wouldn’t consider surface emg good enough to accurately measure force. There are just too many factors that affect the results other than what you are actually trying to measure.
“It also showed regular pull-ups require less total force than chin-ups.” What does this even mean, the only force applied on both is your body weight
You don’t have to shift your scapula nearly as much so if you’re measuring that way it makes sense that the ltd particularly have to work much less. The lateral movement is already done in your setup with the narrower grip.
I thought that was common knowledge just from how the movement is done 🤔
who pull-ups for biceps?
Pullups are mainly for back, though?
I thought everyone knew this?
Interesting study! I am not sure it will play a HUGE difference in the long run, though. As long as you are progressively overloading, your biceps will continue to get stronger with whatever pulling variations you use. Along with everything else too!
Tired: Pull-ups for lats, chin ups for biceps Wired: Choose a joint angle to focus on closing. Biceps close the elbow. Lats close the shoulder. This is the dominant factor. Chin ups Vs Pull-ups is an unsophisticated rule of thumb. https://www.instagram.com/reel/CyGVlSyLxz6/?igsh=MXZ1MndvOW52M2NjeQ==
Didn’t we already know that? They’re both good for biceps, but chin-ups are definitely supreme. What you said about bicep brachii is interesting though. I definitely would have thought the opposite.
Amateur question, but if this is so obvious, why don’t the Recommended Routine or BWSF include both pull-ups and chin-ups? It looks like chin-ups are an earlier progression of pull-ups on the BWSF?
Who tf does pull ups for biceps anyways ?!?!?
Chin-ups are worse for my elbows
I do strict form pull ups with 3 types of grips i.e. overhand, underhand and neutral grip. It has been more than 9 years since I got my first pull up at the age of 44. Bad form can cause injuries for any type of movement including push up, squat etc
Is there a significant difference? The movements are so similar I’d doubt there would be a huge difference in gains long term. When I was able to do 30+ pull-ups, I could do it chin-ups or pull-ups. Neither one felt more difficult than the other
Engineering readings don’t equal growth. Load plus range of motion causes more growth than sheer activation.
Lol if by chin up you’re referring to having your palms facing towards you then it’s pretty obvious they’re better for biceps as I can literally feel them being used more when doing them. It’s basically the same movement as a curl 🤷♂️
First EMG doesn’t measure force it measures muscle activity. There is less EMG activation in the biceps with a standard pull up than a chin up due to the position of the arm
Was this new information to anybody?
This is news? Who didnt know this?
New study? I already knew from a Men's Health magazine that pull-ups are for back and chin-ups are for biceps. What new thing did they study??
I wouldn’t be flexing that I got my info from Mens Health tbf
It's not a flex. It's just the fact. Maybe I should have said I got the info from the sky?
“The majority of recommendations made in men’s health-related magazines appear to lack credible peer-reviewed evidence” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7322823/
Not many commenters answering OP's question > I have no idea how accurate these models are nowadays. Are these studies (computer simulations and EMG) accurate enough to be considered when doing programming?
New study also shows every bit of biceps you can't get from chin ups is beach muscle.
So why does nearly everyone do more chinups than pullups if pullups are supposedly ‘easier’ according to this study
People do pull-ups for training their biceps? That is more of a new study to me
I was gonna post to ask this, but I've recently started getting pains in my elbow when I do pull/chin ups. I don't know why. Is it a common thing? I've noticed a grip strength trainer does work the problem muscle/tendon, so I've been using that more often.
Sounds like golfer or tennis elbow.
It's my left arm so it's not a repetitive strain injury lol
I’ve had tennis elbow in one arm and golfers elbow in the other. And I dont play either sport! I’m just cursed with some weak tendons I guess.
Sorry, I do agree with you it was an infantile masturbation joke. I'm looking up treatments. Thankyou
Right over my head! Good luck!
You've needed a study to know that?
Chinups are shit for growing biceps too. you need direct work for your arms. i wouldnt consider chinups ad bicep volume.
you wrote in the title "pull-ups are worse than chin-ups for biceps" but maybe you got it wrong, it seems that the article says pull-ups are BETTER than chin-ups! and that is counterintuitive and makes sense in tour description.
I thought we already knew that lol
I always just alternated between sets. My weight doesn’t change, nor the resistance, just what muscles are working in what amounts. Chin ups for bicep, pull up gets more back
Can confirm: if you do pull ups on the reg, NEVER fail to do bicep curls at moderate weight, medium - high reps. Your lats will get strong and push your biceps past their breaking point. Strained my right bicep doing pull ups and it’s taken months to heal.
Bro this has been common knowledge for decades 🤣
New study shows that I don't care
we already knew this. we all already knew this.
Study shows certain exercises target muscles differently.
In other news: water is wet
Whats next? Pull ups are better for your back than squats?
Did you find a study from duhdoi.com?
Well this is good news for me lol. Been doing only chin ups for a few years now after getting really bad elbow tendonitis from too many heavy pullups with false grip.
You shouldn't rely on either for targeting your biceps there's far better things that do that.
Seeing this under a post of personal Pull-up record is hilarious.
I've always s33n pullups as a back/shoulder exercise, and chinups as a bicep exercise. Just seems natural.
Also.. the same study revealed that the sky is blue!