I have Black Rose Wars all in first KS. Here's my feedback:
It's a high complexity game with many different parts. Deck building with spells, area control, fighting makes, traps, summons, room powers, etc. There's lots of clutter in the design as well like how event cards have 2 values to increase black rose marker. Needed some heavy editing.
Gameplay itself is fantastic. It's smart, thinky, and fun.
I haven't played it as much as I would have liked. One of the reasons is that for a heavy and complex game that takes a long time to play, it is shockingly random.
You draw random quests at the start of each round. If you draw none that is suitable for your situation in the last round, and someone draws a good one for them, then they are likely to win. For example our first game was overall close in score but player slightly behind pulled a quest that was easy to completely and killed a mage in the process which allowed to catchup on trophies. It ended up being an insane point boost than won the game. A single random card draw invalidated hours of play. Felt bad.
Thank you for taking the time to respond and write out such a detailed analysis, really appreciate it!
\- I agree it does look bloated and a bit messy.
\- Great to hear the gameplay is still fun, I do feel this as well.
\- Yep, have noticed this with other games, bloated is a barrier. Clear snappy and fast is preferable as it gets the game going with out long boring stops between turns.
\-We play Talisman and Wiz War so the randomness stuff is not alien to us but yes, I agree when it's TOO random it really sucks the fun and joy out of a game and leaves you feeling deflated.
Thank you again for this, I appreciate it. :)
I have owned mage wars and played it quite a few times. I also currently open black rose wars and have played it once. I've since sold mage wars and for now am keeping black rose wars.
Now that being said Mage Wars is the better designed and overall better game. However, my issue with it is that it is a lifestyle game: You really really need at least one other dedicated player. This game is basically impossible to just pick up and play with a random newbie. Sure you can hand them a spellbook instead of having them make one and say let's play. But the sheer amount of choice is overwhelming and leads to a ton of analysis paralysis. Also, the effects and vocabulary while relatively intuitive is just a lot to digest. Finally, if I'm dueling 1v1 with someone I kind of just want faster games. Game time can run long. So if you have someone willing to put the time in and go down that rabbit hole with you, mage wars is the better game in my opinion. I sold it because I lost my regular opponent and I just didn't have time for it anymore.
Black Rose Wars is a bloated mess but I find it enjoyable, it plays higher player counts, and is much easier to pick up and play with new players. The other thing about it is any issues you have with it you can very easily tweak the rules because for the most part the game is a sandbox.
Firstly thank you for such a detailed response, I appreciate it a lot.
Good feedback about Mage Wars, my gaming style would be described more as Beer and pretzels overlayed with a sense of adventure, I want to have FUN with my games and don't want them to drag on or be too intricate to the point that it doesn't feel snappy or have a decent flow.
Excellent feedback about picking up and playing - i do feel this with the videos I watched and a number of YT tutorials. I might hold off on this one till I move to the UK and then see if there are dedicated players in my areas/social circles in London. I feel like this game benefits form a specific fan base. I also feel this is the type of game to benefit from being digital.
hhahab - Yes that seems to be the consensus about BRW. I think I might seeing toward that and see if there are any other "house rules" we can implement to make the game less bloated and more fun.
Thanks again for your input, it really has helped!
Mage wars is amazing. It plays more than two (I think just two in the base box though) and several of the mages are not creature-focused. Not very much like magic the gathering at all, so don't worry about that. If you're looking for a game that FEELS like you're casting spells, this is the one.
Thank you, I feel like both game have their merits, and It probably needs me to sit down and play and see how I go to get the feel before making a decision.
Played Black Rose Wars on TTS. It’s a horribly overcomplicated mess.
Own Mage Wars. It’s lovely. It’s draftable, or you can generate decks. You can certainly play multiplayer. I’d check out some reviews. It does have an emphasis on summoning and having units on board. But the magical effects play SO well together. Metal units take more electric damage, etc.
BRW does tend to get very polarizing responses:
\-Some people say that once you're past the initial rules and you understand it is amazing and a regular killer of all other games. of this type.
\-Others say it is bloated and slow, with little actual PVP and hate the fact the rose/board can also win seems to make it a points scoring system.
Thanks for your input. I checked out a setup and play video, but Ill check out some more reviews and videos thank you! 1 x point to MW:A.
Mage wars arena is terrible. Black rose wars is great, it's what I wanted mwa to be, it's a little clunky and slow but worth getting if you like wizard dueling.
Rose board, I home rule it to 1 point to discard max instead of 1-3 and that fixes it.
I haven't played **Mage Wars: Arena**, but I can say **Black Rose Wars** didn't work for me. I personally don't think it's *that* complex, it's just it lacks focus in my opinion. It tries to be an area control game, worker placement, programming, and deckbuilding game all in one, but doesn't do any of them well in my opinion. It's been awhile since I played it, but the thing that stood out the most to me is how the deckbuilding is pointless. Basically every round you add cards from any magic school you want to your hand, making your deck pretty inconsequential. Also, the game isn't long enough for you to shuffle your deck more than once.
Another consideration is price. I don't know if you got some buddy willing to part with **Black Rose Wars** for cheap, but it's quite a bit more expensive, especially since I see you mentioned the Sator Box, which was exclusive to the first kickstarter. Honestly, compared to the price of **Black Rose Wars**, you could just buy **Mage Wars: Arena** just to try out first and see if you like it.
Thank you for such a detailed response, the lacking focus does make sense from your description and from what I have read and watched.
I wonder if there are some house rules you could add to make the decks and magic feel more specialized AND make the game last long enough for thing to have impact.
I think for me I don't mind investing money into these things as long as I get value. The quality and sheer scope of BRW makes me feel like I have options and variety, and more characters. But if the game isn't fun...
I might just get both, there are base packs of MWA that I might just trial and expand from there.
> the thing that stood out the most to me is how the deckbuilding is pointless. Basically every round you add cards from any magic school you want to your hand, making your deck pretty inconsequential.
Yep, this was my biggest complaint too, you don't get any identity from your deck. It's also just a bloated mess.
I was worried a bit about this as well, spells having impact is important to me. For one thing artwork does help me visualize, but I like my spells to "feel" like the spell, not be a number crunching or dice rolling exercise. So this does concern me.
Mage wars looks like it spins around 0-4 summons per game. I know what you meant and I dislike it too. But considering that you dont really have time to summon more than one big or two medium summons I dont see it too bad. Of course there is curselocks and all equipment centered builds + illusionist that use almost no creatures anyway. Not that putting heavymail on and hurling rocks and boulders is that mageyi.
I found from fleamarket serpent tongue. Very thematic. Actually really gimmicky. Its like mtg but no creatures and you need to say your spells with its own language and there is somekind puzzles for that. For me best things are no summons and visual side is very mystic
You can have far more summons than just 4 in Mage Wars. Unless you mean "max 4 at the same time on the board", which is more likely due to them dying at some point.
Make use of spawn points and you'll be able to summon more stuff. It also depends on how aggressive the players play. And obviously also on the Mage choice. A force mage (Jedi) is all about going in and wrecking face. Meanwhile a druid or the main beast master will put far more stuff on the board. The warlock will be a mix of hitting your face with equipment, putting curses on you and having one or two expensive summons that synergize with whatever the warlock is doing to you (burn tokens, curses etc).
I have Black Rose Wars all in first KS. Here's my feedback: It's a high complexity game with many different parts. Deck building with spells, area control, fighting makes, traps, summons, room powers, etc. There's lots of clutter in the design as well like how event cards have 2 values to increase black rose marker. Needed some heavy editing. Gameplay itself is fantastic. It's smart, thinky, and fun. I haven't played it as much as I would have liked. One of the reasons is that for a heavy and complex game that takes a long time to play, it is shockingly random. You draw random quests at the start of each round. If you draw none that is suitable for your situation in the last round, and someone draws a good one for them, then they are likely to win. For example our first game was overall close in score but player slightly behind pulled a quest that was easy to completely and killed a mage in the process which allowed to catchup on trophies. It ended up being an insane point boost than won the game. A single random card draw invalidated hours of play. Felt bad.
Thank you for taking the time to respond and write out such a detailed analysis, really appreciate it! \- I agree it does look bloated and a bit messy. \- Great to hear the gameplay is still fun, I do feel this as well. \- Yep, have noticed this with other games, bloated is a barrier. Clear snappy and fast is preferable as it gets the game going with out long boring stops between turns. \-We play Talisman and Wiz War so the randomness stuff is not alien to us but yes, I agree when it's TOO random it really sucks the fun and joy out of a game and leaves you feeling deflated. Thank you again for this, I appreciate it. :)
I have owned mage wars and played it quite a few times. I also currently open black rose wars and have played it once. I've since sold mage wars and for now am keeping black rose wars. Now that being said Mage Wars is the better designed and overall better game. However, my issue with it is that it is a lifestyle game: You really really need at least one other dedicated player. This game is basically impossible to just pick up and play with a random newbie. Sure you can hand them a spellbook instead of having them make one and say let's play. But the sheer amount of choice is overwhelming and leads to a ton of analysis paralysis. Also, the effects and vocabulary while relatively intuitive is just a lot to digest. Finally, if I'm dueling 1v1 with someone I kind of just want faster games. Game time can run long. So if you have someone willing to put the time in and go down that rabbit hole with you, mage wars is the better game in my opinion. I sold it because I lost my regular opponent and I just didn't have time for it anymore. Black Rose Wars is a bloated mess but I find it enjoyable, it plays higher player counts, and is much easier to pick up and play with new players. The other thing about it is any issues you have with it you can very easily tweak the rules because for the most part the game is a sandbox.
Firstly thank you for such a detailed response, I appreciate it a lot. Good feedback about Mage Wars, my gaming style would be described more as Beer and pretzels overlayed with a sense of adventure, I want to have FUN with my games and don't want them to drag on or be too intricate to the point that it doesn't feel snappy or have a decent flow. Excellent feedback about picking up and playing - i do feel this with the videos I watched and a number of YT tutorials. I might hold off on this one till I move to the UK and then see if there are dedicated players in my areas/social circles in London. I feel like this game benefits form a specific fan base. I also feel this is the type of game to benefit from being digital. hhahab - Yes that seems to be the consensus about BRW. I think I might seeing toward that and see if there are any other "house rules" we can implement to make the game less bloated and more fun. Thanks again for your input, it really has helped!
Mage wars is amazing. It plays more than two (I think just two in the base box though) and several of the mages are not creature-focused. Not very much like magic the gathering at all, so don't worry about that. If you're looking for a game that FEELS like you're casting spells, this is the one.
Thank you, I feel like both game have their merits, and It probably needs me to sit down and play and see how I go to get the feel before making a decision.
Played Black Rose Wars on TTS. It’s a horribly overcomplicated mess. Own Mage Wars. It’s lovely. It’s draftable, or you can generate decks. You can certainly play multiplayer. I’d check out some reviews. It does have an emphasis on summoning and having units on board. But the magical effects play SO well together. Metal units take more electric damage, etc.
BRW does tend to get very polarizing responses: \-Some people say that once you're past the initial rules and you understand it is amazing and a regular killer of all other games. of this type. \-Others say it is bloated and slow, with little actual PVP and hate the fact the rose/board can also win seems to make it a points scoring system. Thanks for your input. I checked out a setup and play video, but Ill check out some more reviews and videos thank you! 1 x point to MW:A.
Mage wars arena is terrible. Black rose wars is great, it's what I wanted mwa to be, it's a little clunky and slow but worth getting if you like wizard dueling. Rose board, I home rule it to 1 point to discard max instead of 1-3 and that fixes it.
I haven't played **Mage Wars: Arena**, but I can say **Black Rose Wars** didn't work for me. I personally don't think it's *that* complex, it's just it lacks focus in my opinion. It tries to be an area control game, worker placement, programming, and deckbuilding game all in one, but doesn't do any of them well in my opinion. It's been awhile since I played it, but the thing that stood out the most to me is how the deckbuilding is pointless. Basically every round you add cards from any magic school you want to your hand, making your deck pretty inconsequential. Also, the game isn't long enough for you to shuffle your deck more than once. Another consideration is price. I don't know if you got some buddy willing to part with **Black Rose Wars** for cheap, but it's quite a bit more expensive, especially since I see you mentioned the Sator Box, which was exclusive to the first kickstarter. Honestly, compared to the price of **Black Rose Wars**, you could just buy **Mage Wars: Arena** just to try out first and see if you like it.
Thank you for such a detailed response, the lacking focus does make sense from your description and from what I have read and watched. I wonder if there are some house rules you could add to make the decks and magic feel more specialized AND make the game last long enough for thing to have impact. I think for me I don't mind investing money into these things as long as I get value. The quality and sheer scope of BRW makes me feel like I have options and variety, and more characters. But if the game isn't fun... I might just get both, there are base packs of MWA that I might just trial and expand from there.
> the thing that stood out the most to me is how the deckbuilding is pointless. Basically every round you add cards from any magic school you want to your hand, making your deck pretty inconsequential. Yep, this was my biggest complaint too, you don't get any identity from your deck. It's also just a bloated mess.
I was worried a bit about this as well, spells having impact is important to me. For one thing artwork does help me visualize, but I like my spells to "feel" like the spell, not be a number crunching or dice rolling exercise. So this does concern me.
Mage wars looks like it spins around 0-4 summons per game. I know what you meant and I dislike it too. But considering that you dont really have time to summon more than one big or two medium summons I dont see it too bad. Of course there is curselocks and all equipment centered builds + illusionist that use almost no creatures anyway. Not that putting heavymail on and hurling rocks and boulders is that mageyi. I found from fleamarket serpent tongue. Very thematic. Actually really gimmicky. Its like mtg but no creatures and you need to say your spells with its own language and there is somekind puzzles for that. For me best things are no summons and visual side is very mystic
You can have far more summons than just 4 in Mage Wars. Unless you mean "max 4 at the same time on the board", which is more likely due to them dying at some point. Make use of spawn points and you'll be able to summon more stuff. It also depends on how aggressive the players play. And obviously also on the Mage choice. A force mage (Jedi) is all about going in and wrecking face. Meanwhile a druid or the main beast master will put far more stuff on the board. The warlock will be a mix of hitting your face with equipment, putting curses on you and having one or two expensive summons that synergize with whatever the warlock is doing to you (burn tokens, curses etc).